I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Looking at it as objectively as I can the route that would make the most economic sense (or least "unsense") would be a NI tunnel to the tip Kintyre (only 12-14 miles with approaches, I think) and then a bridge to the Isle of Arran and then a further bridge or tunnel to West Kilbride.
That would at least nominally link two large cities - Belfast and Glasgow, that tot up to over a million people combined (and a bit more with the wider "metro" areas) - and at around 140-150 miles which you could drive the lot in 2.5-3 hours, which is enough to kill off flights and make it feasible for weekend trips and the occasional commute.
But, it's way way clear of England.
And both Kintyre and Arran are going to be well pleased at becoming waystations for fleets of HGVs going back and forth to NI.
Well, of course. Few people like major construction or development taking place near them.
It's probably a non-starter simply because the Scottish Government would have no political interest in accommodating or facilitating it.
Even if it made sense - which it doesn't - that spur to Heysham seems particularly pointless.
It looks to me like someone was sketching up options on a map, and then just drew a roundabout to link them.
If you were going to do that you'd have one link from Scotland to NI and another from England to NI, via the IoM, and you might have a micro-roundabout to link them.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
OK, lets step back a minute. If Shagger is so good at setting things up - say the vaccine taskforce - then why is Track and Trace such a godawful disaster?
If he was the driving force behind COGUK then logically the argument is that the genomic sequencing body had no idea that it needed to sequence Covid until Boris suggested they do so.
Really? Its as laughable as the "argument" that Jezbollah was a driving force behind peace in Norniron.
Track and Trace isn't a disaster. It's catching over 90% of known contacts now and is estimated to be reducing R by the same amount as school closures. It had teething problems and took months to get up to speed...
Of the cases transferred to the contact tracing system between 4 February and 10 February, 86.9% were reached and asked to provide information about their recent close contacts. This has remained broadly consistent over the past 3 months.
For those where communication details were available, 96.5% of close contacts were reached and told to self-isolate in the most recent week. Taking into account all contacts identified, 93.6% were reached in the most recent week.
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Looking at it as objectively as I can the route that would make the most economic sense (or least "unsense") would be a NI tunnel to the tip Kintyre (only 12-14 miles with approaches, I think) and then a bridge to the Isle of Arran and then a further bridge or tunnel to West Kilbride.
That would at least nominally link two large cities - Belfast and Glasgow, that tot up to over a million people combined (and a bit more with the wider "metro" areas) - and at around 140-150 miles which you could drive the lot in 2.5-3 hours, which is enough to kill off flights and make it feasible for weekend trips and the occasional commute.
But, it's way way clear of England.
And both Kintyre and Arran are going to be well pleased at becoming waystations for fleets of HGVs going back and forth to NI.
I was speaking to someone from Arran last week. After the Co-op (other supermarkets are not available) having no £1.80 per loaf bread for three days due to ferry disruption, a tunnel bringing HGVs would be very welcome.
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
AZ's testing for Covid was more rigorous than Pfizer's. It's clear they're both very good vaccines in the real world though.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
What is your wider point?
There’s plenty of polling showing that the public is unimpressed with the government’s handling of the pandemic. There’s plenty of polling showing that lots of voters are sticking with the government anyway.
If you’re not going to reconsider your voting intention when a government has negligently killed tens of thousands, you can be safely labelled a blind partisan. There are, we now know, an awful lot of them.
This will lead to bad government, since ministers can see that they can be incompetent and corrupt without consequence. But that’s of no real concern to the blind partisans, who may get as far as tutting but that’s about it.
See also the 2005 GE. That Labour won a 66 seat majority after Iraq shows just how much partisanship counts for.
The 2005 GE was a particularly odd circumstance. Normally when the government does something stupid and unpopular, it loses support to the opposition. But IDS was in open full support for the stupid and unpopular thing, which rather negated it as a political issue. Yes, people headed off to vote LibDem (hurrah), but you coudn't argue for installing the other party into government because Iraq when they also supported Iraq.
It is a very clear historical lesson as why why Starmer shat the bed by backing the Brexit deal.
But back then there was a sizeable Lab-LD front (i.e. plenty of seats that go LD without the risk of letting the Tories in). Ultimately, Labour's core vote held firm despite Iraq.
EDIT: and, of course, when it came to the election, the LDs targetted.... the Tories!
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
Is this not devolved? What happened in Scotland? What happened in Wales?
(Also, were the Governments acting on scientific advice? Scientists can be wrong, especially when working with poor data).
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
Is this not devolved? What happened in Scotland? What happened in Wales?
(Also, were the Governments acting on scientific advice? Scientists can be wrong, especially when working with poor data).
Based on medical advice, in order to prepare NHS Hospitals for a wave of cases, and prevent them from being overwhlemed.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
Only 76% actually have a passport. But this ONS survey suggests that over 70 million a year go abroad (though only 46 million on holiday), which looks over 60%, though I suspect people who go twice are double-counted.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
Yes. The care homes will likely be the smoking gun, if everyone can snap themselves out of the euphoria of being free in time to come.
My wife is a local government officer and not keen on the Government at all but is surprisingly ambivalent to the above case. She was busy trying to implement changing guidance at the beginning of the pandemic - she is responsible for a graveyard, and she gets quite agitated about it saying that people were just trying to do what they thought was right at the time. It must be remembered that at the time all anyone wanted to know was bed capacity and ventilators.
I have a different attitude - I don't blame the officials greatly for the admittedly terrible error,but I also give them little credit for the vaccine rollout. Both I believe stem from a strong centralised NHS controlling the delivery
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
And in the meantime, the UK death toll has quietly crept up from 100 000 to 120 000.
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Looking at it as objectively as I can the route that would make the most economic sense (or least "unsense") would be a NI tunnel to the tip Kintyre (only 12-14 miles with approaches, I think) and then a bridge to the Isle of Arran and then a further bridge or tunnel to West Kilbride.
That would at least nominally link two large cities - Belfast and Glasgow, that tot up to over a million people combined (and a bit more with the wider "metro" areas) - and at around 140-150 miles which you could drive the lot in 2.5-3 hours, which is enough to kill off flights and make it feasible for weekend trips and the occasional commute.
But, it's way way clear of England.
And both Kintyre and Arran are going to be well pleased at becoming waystations for fleets of HGVs going back and forth to NI.
I was speaking to someone from Arran last week. After the Co-op (other supermarkets are not available) having no £1.80 per loaf bread for three days due to ferry disruption, a tunnel bringing HGVs would be very welcome.
Told this before, but as it is so on point...
Was in the Co-op on Arran stocking up for a holiday cottage I'd been lent. The woman in front of me at the check-out was getting very exasperated. She was trying to buy several loaves, but was being told that they were past their sell-by date, so would have to have be withdrawn from sale.
She clearly couldn't comprehend why this should be a problem.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
Is this not devolved? What happened in Scotland? What happened in Wales?
(Also, were the Governments acting on scientific advice? Scientists can be wrong, especially when working with poor data).
Based on medical advice, in order to prepare NHS Hospitals for a wave of cases, and prevent them from being overwhlemed.
I suspect because all 3 Governments did it, then it was based on scientific/medical advice (which turned out to be deadly advice).
It is always interesting to see it is pb.com lawyers (like Meeks & Co) who convict immediately without hearing any case for the defence
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
And it's an established fact that vaccines are more effective in people with stronger immune systems, who tend to be younger. In the UK the AZN vaccine came on stream later; most of the age 60s and below will be getting AZN while most of the 70s and above got the Pfizer. Indeed my local hospital vaccination centre has stopped doing new Pfizers and is holding its supply for the forthcoming wave of second vacs for the elderly.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
Only 76% actually have a passport. But this ONS survey suggests that over 70 million a year go abroad (though only 46 million on holiday), which looks over 60%, though I suspect people who go twice are double-counted.
It`s not just double-counting - for example, I`m off abroad five or six times in a normal year. And what about business travel? If the answer is over 60% then this means that over 80% of people that have a passport have a foreign holiday in a normal year. No way.
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
And there's presumably some margin for error in the figures. It doesn't really matter, though, as in any event it helps confirm the encouraging data from elsewhere. Bottom line is that the vaccines work pretty well (and far better than the more cautious forecasts last year).
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
Possibly.
But in that first month a lot of Pfizer would have been used on NHS workers.
An overall reduction of over 80% means that there is no way hospitalizations are going to soar no matter how quickly restrictions are lifted.
There are too many people already vaccinated for that to happen.
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Looking at it as objectively as I can the route that would make the most economic sense (or least "unsense") would be a NI tunnel to the tip Kintyre (only 12-14 miles with approaches, I think) and then a bridge to the Isle of Arran and then a further bridge or tunnel to West Kilbride.
That would at least nominally link two large cities - Belfast and Glasgow, that tot up to over a million people combined (and a bit more with the wider "metro" areas) - and at around 140-150 miles which you could drive the lot in 2.5-3 hours, which is enough to kill off flights and make it feasible for weekend trips and the occasional commute.
But, it's way way clear of England.
And both Kintyre and Arran are going to be well pleased at becoming waystations for fleets of HGVs going back and forth to NI.
Well, of course. Few people like major construction or development taking place near them.
It's probably a non-starter simply because the Scottish Government would have no political interest in accommodating or facilitating it.
Even if it made sense - which it doesn't - that spur to Heysham seems particularly pointless.
It looks to me like someone was sketching up options on a map, and then just drew a roundabout to link them.
If you were going to do that you'd have one link from Scotland to NI and another from England to NI, via the IoM, and you might have a micro-roundabout to link them.
You wouldn't have Tom, Dick and Harry.
I guess with the clown there's always the possibility that one of the spurs comes up short of the woods?
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Lets see how much public money gets wasted, before being so blasé.
This is what I don't get about Big G. He literally howls in rage at Drakeford and the Welsh government. Yet if Shagger wants to spaff vast sums of Big G's money up the wall on stupidity or corruption (or usually both) he takes the opposite line and gives it at least tacit approval.
If you're against wasting money then you're against it in all circumstances. If you're against politician/party x wasting public money but not your favoured politician/party then you're a hypocrite.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
What is your wider point?
There’s plenty of polling showing that the public is unimpressed with the government’s handling of the pandemic. There’s plenty of polling showing that lots of voters are sticking with the government anyway.
If you’re not going to reconsider your voting intention when a government has negligently killed tens of thousands, you can be safely labelled a blind partisan. There are, we now know, an awful lot of them.
This will lead to bad government, since ministers can see that they can be incompetent and corrupt without consequence. But that’s of no real concern to the blind partisans, who may get as far as tutting but that’s about it.
See also the 2005 GE. That Labour won a 66 seat majority after Iraq shows just how much partisanship counts for.
Labour still lost 48 seats in 2005, just Howard, despite being a competent leader of the opposition, was not someone most voters wanted as PM.
Whether the same is true for Starmer in 2024 remains to be seen
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
If that is the case and the Herald are claiming that a letter from a solicitor is a court case that shows that while professional journalism is better than twitter (the argument from yesterday) - the Herald is neither professional nor actual journalism.
I was sent a jab text to turn up to get your jab 8.15am tomorrow ... 150 of us turned up and queued... on Sunday morning...we waited and waited.. surgery closed noone there....we went home.... It appears that the multi text that was sent out on Friday afternoon that was supposed to get us to turn up "tomorrow" at 8.15 ie on Sat am was not released until 10.10am on Sat ..of course we were meant to attend Sat am as the vaccine expired Sat 10.15. am. So an almighty cock up due the multi recipient text not going out immediately.. we don't think the vaccine was wasted,we think it went to key workers..
Is it common that multiple recipient texts get delayed on.this way...???
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
And there's presumably some margin for error in the figures. It doesn't really matter, though, as in any event it helps confirm the encouraging data from elsewhere. Bottom line is that the vaccines work pretty well (and far better than the more cautious forecasts last year).
Yes, and this is with just a single dose. Once we get the booster shots done the numbers will look even more favourable with probably close to 100% immunity to hospitalisation.
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
I think that the best thing the government could do would be a permanent reduction in duty for the on-trade - alcohol sales in licensed premises. Problem drinkers and health resulted alcohol issues do not stem from pubs to any great extent, and the social good provided by pubs in particular is something that is undervalued.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
OK, lets step back a minute. If Shagger is so good at setting things up - say the vaccine taskforce - then why is Track and Trace such a godawful disaster?
If he was the driving force behind COGUK then logically the argument is that the genomic sequencing body had no idea that it needed to sequence Covid until Boris suggested they do so.
Really? Its as laughable as the "argument" that Jezbollah was a driving force behind peace in Norniron.
Track and Trace isn't a disaster. It's catching over 90% of known contacts now and is estimated to be reducing R by the same amount as school closures. It had teething problems and took months to get up to speed...
Of the cases transferred to the contact tracing system between 4 February and 10 February, 86.9% were reached and asked to provide information about their recent close contacts. This has remained broadly consistent over the past 3 months.
For those where communication details were available, 96.5% of close contacts were reached and told to self-isolate in the most recent week. Taking into account all contacts identified, 93.6% were reached in the most recent week.
Hmmmm indeed. None of that that really confirms the claims for effectiveness.
The odd thing about unlockdown is how out of step the commentariat is with the public. Polling shows that the public are a lot more cautious than (affluent, mobile) commentators and politicians:
I loathe lockdown because of the restrictions it places in normal human behaviour which makes life worth living. It's a dreary monotonous hibernation. To use a gardening analogy I feel like a plant grown in a polytunnel rather than out in the sun: existing rather than alive.
But given the deaths and illnesses (and having seen and endured both in the family) I would rather it went on a bit longer than be cut short prematurely with the risk of having to be reimposed PROVIDED there is proper support for those affected while it endures.
My concern is that there isn't and hasn't been for some while. It is easy to be pro-lockdown if you have a secure job and a secure income. But I now have neither. Nor has Daughter or one of my sons. Our family income has been severely affected and we have had to eat into savings far more than we thought. God knows how - and if - we will be able to replenish them.
We are nonetheless relatively OK compared to many others.
For those without a secure income or job, financial anxieties are piled onto health ones and, as the latter decline with more being vaccinated, the former become more prominent. Being poor, stressed & unemployed is not good for one's health either. This latter point is at risk of being overlooked by those who are more comfortably off.
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
Bollocks.
A letter from lawyers was sent demanding actions and demanding payment of £2,500. That's legal action.
It may not be courts, but getting lawyers to demand £2,500 off someone is legal action. What else would you call it? An invoice for services rendered?
The government has been more cohesive and much better at its messaging over the last couple of months. I think Cummings is a very able guy, brilliant at identifying wedge issues, coming up with those pithy soundbites and happy to run right over pompous windbags inflated with their own self importance but useful though these skills are in a campaign they do not lead to harmonious government.
I know as little as the next person on this and certainly less than some on this board but it does seem to me that the appointment of Allegra Stratton in November was the changing point and I would be minded to give her a lot of the credit. If Carrie played a role in getting her appointed and in giving her the political heft to bring others into line she has done Boris a considerable favour.
Today will be a good test. Pre November Boris would have been bombastic, overly optimistic and too ready to let his natural inclination to let people get on with it be evident. I suspect we will see a more measured, Prime Ministerial performance today with caution and more consistent messaging with just the odd Borisism to remind us who he is.
Let's hope so. Some around him are suggesting that, having been too relaxed and cavalier at the outset he is so stung by his initial failures that we now risk excessive caution.
I can envisage a scenario where he maps out a slow pained emergence from our current restrictions, which will have to be torn up (again!) when the combination of vaccination and summer weather ends the wave of new cases and so the pressure to open up quickly becomes impossible to resist.
But that's fine and a lot easier to manage. You simply say that you are indeed being driven by data not dates and the data is better than expected. No one is going to complain if the pubs and restaurants open a little earlier than planned. Well, almost no one. No doubt there will be those who moan about stocking etc. but that will do the government and the economy little harm.
The priority now is the economy. We will see that today and in the budget. We need to recover lost GDP and tax revenues as fast as we safely can. We face an immense challenge, this is 2010 all over again so far as the deficit is concerned with more steroids than those Olympic potentials are currently gulping given that out of season testing is now almost non existent.
It isn't about ease of management. It's about the rapid rollout of the vaccination programme presenting an opportunity that it might require a bit of courage to make the most of.
I agree. Its a difficult balancing act. We have invested heavily in vaccines to get us additional time to recover. If we waste that time it will be an opportunity lost.
We need: * To get schools and Universities back to classrooms and tutorials soonest. *To get shops, restaurants, bars and cafes open in time for Easter even if they still have all the social distancing paraphernalia. * To get offices, factories and public transport back to something like normal by the end of May/early June. * To get rid of the social distancing by end July allowing sporting events, nightclubs and festivals.
We will have to keep some social distancing and masks for sometime, even if lockdown eases, especially to avoid any rapid mutations
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
Its whataboutery. Yes this is shit, but whatabout that? "What happened with care homes was bad". Bad = 20k dead who should still be alive. Its not bad, its bloody criminal. And you lot don't give a toss because Back Boris.
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
And there's presumably some margin for error in the figures. It doesn't really matter, though, as in any event it helps confirm the encouraging data from elsewhere. Bottom line is that the vaccines work pretty well (and far better than the more cautious forecasts last year).
Yes, and this is with just a single dose. Once we get the booster shots done the numbers will look even more favourable with probably close to 100% immunity to hospitalisation.
I'm fully expecting an AZ Mark II (or even Mark III or IV) booster vaccination campaign from October to December this year.
More broadly, I expect the UK's national vaccine "warfooting" to be maintained (or at least kept in abeyance) for the next 18-24 months, until the virus has been largely supressed globally.
I suspect because all 3 Governments did it, then it was based on scientific/medical advice (which turned out to be deadly advice).
It is always interesting to see it is pb.com lawyers (like Meeks & Co) who convict immediately without hearing any case for the defence
The idea makes sense if you think about it.
Assuming we don't have any Covid cases in the hospital (and as we don't see any Covid cases) rapidly releasing people back into care homes will free up hospital beds.
Sadly the assumption was wrong and that false assumption the deaths.
If it had been done a few days / weeks earlier then the disaster wouldn't have occurred..
Surely it is the friends and family of the dead who should be bitter. That you can utterly dismiss their lives and their loss for political point scoring should be an outrage, but little is these days.
The abhorrent political points scoring is coming from both sides and is frankly unnecessary
The world is in a pandemic which is far from over and neither sadly is a rising worldwide death toll
Political point scoring?
You agree that the death toll in Wales is unacceptably high due to the egregious incompetence of the First Minister. You also accept that the high death toll in England/ the UK as a whole, is simply down to the nature of the virus and the worldwide pandemic.
Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
If we are to have a grown up conversation then the initial death toll across the UK was unacceptable due to errors made by Boris, Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster and a public enquiry will be interesting
However, my anger with Drakeford is historical due to failures in the Wales NHS and Education pre covid affecting members of my family but also when he introduced the 14 day lockdown he insisted it was all that was needed and immediately opened Wales up to normal activity creating a crisis that was predictable
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Lets see how much public money gets wasted, before being so blasé.
This is what I don't get about Big G. He literally howls in rage at Drakeford and the Welsh government. Yet if Shagger wants to spaff vast sums of Big G's money up the wall on stupidity or corruption (or usually both) he takes the opposite line and gives it at least tacit approval.
If you're against wasting money then you're against it in all circumstances. If you're against politician/party x wasting public money but not your favoured politician/party then you're a hypocrite.
Humour fail if you take this seriously
Mate, I'm saying they will build it. I'm saying that Boris will spaff our money up the wall thinking about it. As he did with Boris Island. As he did with the Garden Bridge. As he did with the Cable Car. Personally I'd rather he not waste our money on stupid. You on the other hand are happy as long as it him wasting your money and not Drakeford.
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
I have a pin if you would like to count the number of angels dancing on its head......
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
True.
From the ONS, all I can get rapidly is that there were 93.1 million trips abroad by Brits in 2019.
Of course, the average number of trips abroad per person will be crucial there - if those who travelled abroad did an average of 10 trips each, that'd be only 9.3 million travelling abroad.
So, overall, if the average number of trips abroad by Brits who travelled abroad at all was 2.3 or fewer, your mate's right. If the mean number of trips is 4.6 or greater, you're right.
Remember, of course, that while there will be a few who travel a lot, there will be many who only go once or so, so... plenty of scope for argument there.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
What is your wider point?
There’s plenty of polling showing that the public is unimpressed with the government’s handling of the pandemic. There’s plenty of polling showing that lots of voters are sticking with the government anyway.
If you’re not going to reconsider your voting intention when a government has negligently killed tens of thousands, you can be safely labelled a blind partisan. There are, we now know, an awful lot of them.
This will lead to bad government, since ministers can see that they can be incompetent and corrupt without consequence. But that’s of no real concern to the blind partisans, who may get as far as tutting but that’s about it.
See also the 2005 GE. That Labour won a 66 seat majority after Iraq shows just how much partisanship counts for.
Labour still lost 48 seats in 2005, just Howard, despite being a competent leader of the opposition, was not someone most voters wanted as PM.
Whether the same is true for Starmer in 2024 remains to be seen
Just as GE2017 was for GE2019, there were plenty of demographic straws in the wind in GE2005 for GE2010 too.
I was sent a jab text to turn up to get your jab 8.15am tomorrow ... 150 of us turned up and queued... on Sunday morning...we waited and waited.. surgery closed noone there....we went home.... It appears that the multi text that was sent out on Friday afternoon that was supposed to get us to turn up "tomorrow" at 8.15 ie on Sat am was not released until 10.10am on Sat ..of course we were meant to attend Sat am as the vaccine expired Sat 10.15. am. So an almighty cock up due the multi recipient text not going out immediately.. we don't think the vaccine was wasted,we think it went to key workers..
Is it common that multiple recipient texts get delayed on.this way...???
First I've heard of it. Hope they resolve your alternative vaccination soon. You shouldn't be exposed to risk any longer than have to, just because of an IT cock-up.
Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
So how many people have Macron and Handelstwatt killed ?
I’m not going down that particular rabbit hole but I was surprised to see the AZ being more effective than the Pfizer.
Could be because of a differential in patient type given that the AZ vaccine came almost a month later.
AZ's testing for Covid was more rigorous than Pfizer's. It's clear they're both very good vaccines in the real world though.
IF this continues to be the case (i.e. AZ as good as or even better than Pfizer, it might give some who have banged on about wanting the Pfizer jab by preference something to think about. I have long suspected that all the vaccines would have very similar real world effects, mostly because they are using the same spike protein. Macron - are you listening? Handelsplatt - are you litstening? Your boys took a hell of a beating... Dickheads, playing political games with peoples lives. They should hang their heads in shame.
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
Bollocks.
A letter from lawyers was sent demanding actions and demanding payment of £2,500. That's legal action.
It may not be courts, but getting lawyers to demand £2,500 off someone is legal action. What else would you call it? An invoice for services rendered?
I would normally use "legal action" to mean just about anything, and "formal action" to mean the issuance of a claim.
It is naive to believe otherwise, because 90% of my cases are resolved at the "informal stage".
Unfortunately in terms of terminology the Court's own rules (in England) contradict themselves by referring to this as "pre-action" correspondence; but at the point you're complying with the Court's rules, you're part of a Court process.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
True.
From the ONS, all I can get rapidly is that there were 93.1 million trips abroad by Brits in 2019.
Of course, the average number of trips abroad per person will be crucial there - if those who travelled abroad did an average of 10 trips each, that'd be only 9.3 million travelling abroad.
So, overall, if the average number of trips abroad by Brits who travelled abroad at all was 2.3 or fewer, your mate's right. If the mean number of trips is 4.6 or greater, you're right.
Remember, of course, that while there will be a few who travel a lot, there will be many who only go once or so, so... plenty of scope for argument there.
Thinking about the average isn't going to help, because you'd inadvertently be thinking about the median. The mean will be skewed by those few who are off abroad every month or more.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
True.
From the ONS, all I can get rapidly is that there were 93.1 million trips abroad by Brits in 2019.
Of course, the average number of trips abroad per person will be crucial there - if those who travelled abroad did an average of 10 trips each, that'd be only 9.3 million travelling abroad.
So, overall, if the average number of trips abroad by Brits who travelled abroad at all was 2.3 or fewer, your mate's right. If the mean number of trips is 4.6 or greater, you're right.
Remember, of course, that while there will be a few who travel a lot, there will be many who only go once or so, so... plenty of scope for argument there.
And you are not stripping out business travel. Also, see Nick`s post below that only 76% of Brits have a passport.
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
There are still tens of thousands of patients in hospital. There is still little capacity in the NHS even if we are on the way out.
It certainly could be possible that the NHS isn't at risk from schools reopening but would be at risk for a complete and utter free-for-all right now. In that case what do you propose? Keep damaging children's education until everything is lifted all in one go, or go step by step as its safe to do so?
"Celebrities" always get attention from MPs of all parties and the media. Its inevitable. Is your daughter in her local Chamber of Commerce? Or any other group similar? Presumably they'll be talking to ministers too.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
One doesn't have to be a government supporter to agree with your wider point on this. I am an opponent of the government and also seriously concerned about the hugely damaging effects of prolonged lockdowns, on the economy, children and mental health.
I don't see it as a party political issue, and I rather wish people like Alastair would refrain from casting it as such.
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Lets see how much public money gets wasted, before being so blasé.
This is what I don't get about Big G. He literally howls in rage at Drakeford and the Welsh government. Yet if Shagger wants to spaff vast sums of Big G's money up the wall on stupidity or corruption (or usually both) he takes the opposite line and gives it at least tacit approval.
If you're against wasting money then you're against it in all circumstances. If you're against politician/party x wasting public money but not your favoured politician/party then you're a hypocrite.
Humour fail if you take this seriously
Mate, I'm saying they will build it. I'm saying that Boris will spaff our money up the wall thinking about it. As he did with Boris Island. As he did with the Garden Bridge. As he did with the Cable Car. Personally I'd rather he not waste our money on stupid. You on the other hand are happy as long as it him wasting your money and not Drakeford.
And both the Garden Bridge and the Cable Car are an example of a Boris idea that was started and then failed.
The Garden Bridge cost millions before it was scrapped and the Cable Car's first real customers are going to be the Greater London Authority as they start using the Crystal as their new offices.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
What is your wider point?
There’s plenty of polling showing that the public is unimpressed with the government’s handling of the pandemic. There’s plenty of polling showing that lots of voters are sticking with the government anyway.
If you’re not going to reconsider your voting intention when a government has negligently killed tens of thousands, you can be safely labelled a blind partisan. There are, we now know, an awful lot of them.
This will lead to bad government, since ministers can see that they can be incompetent and corrupt without consequence. But that’s of no real concern to the blind partisans, who may get as far as tutting but that’s about it.
See also the 2005 GE. That Labour won a 66 seat majority after Iraq shows just how much partisanship counts for.
The 2005 GE was a particularly odd circumstance. Normally when the government does something stupid and unpopular, it loses support to the opposition. But IDS was in open full support for the stupid and unpopular thing, which rather negated it as a political issue. Yes, people headed off to vote LibDem (hurrah), but you coudn't argue for installing the other party into government because Iraq when they also supported Iraq.
It is a very clear historical lesson as why why Starmer shat the bed by backing the Brexit deal.
But back then there was a sizeable Lab-LD front (i.e. plenty of seats that go LD without the risk of letting the Tories in). Ultimately, Labour's core vote held firm despite Iraq. EDIT: and, of course, when it came to the election, the LDs targetted.... the Tories!
I thought the Lib Dems targeted both Labour and Tory, on a seat by seat basis. Quite right too, since they both abandonded all principle and just blindly followed Bush's instuctions.
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
I think that the best thing the government could do would be a permanent reduction in duty for the on-trade - alcohol sales in licensed premises. Problem drinkers and health resulted alcohol issues do not stem from pubs to any great extent, and the social good provided by pubs in particular is something that is undervalued.
Also drop VAT on food served hot or for consumption on the premises, now that we have powers over VAT.
Business rates on pubs can continue to be waived too, they raise comparatively little but are a huge fixed cost to smaller operators.
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
There are still tens of thousands of patients in hospital. There is still little capacity in the NHS even if we are on the way out.
It certainly could be possible that the NHS isn't at risk from schools reopening but would be at risk for a complete and utter free-for-all right now. In that case what do you propose? Keep damaging children's education until everything is lifted all in one go, or go step by step as its safe to do so?
"Celebrities" always get attention from MPs of all parties and the media. Its inevitable. Is your daughter in her local Chamber of Commerce? Or any other group similar? Presumably they'll be talking to ministers too.
n If Schools are re-opening and shops aren't we are simply moving back to November's level 4 lockdown. And that makes sense at the moment - we still need to reduce hospital numbers further.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
True.
From the ONS, all I can get rapidly is that there were 93.1 million trips abroad by Brits in 2019.
Of course, the average number of trips abroad per person will be crucial there - if those who travelled abroad did an average of 10 trips each, that'd be only 9.3 million travelling abroad.
So, overall, if the average number of trips abroad by Brits who travelled abroad at all was 2.3 or fewer, your mate's right. If the mean number of trips is 4.6 or greater, you're right.
Remember, of course, that while there will be a few who travel a lot, there will be many who only go once or so, so... plenty of scope for argument there.
If it helps that debate, going into the data, of those 93.1 million trips:
58.7 million were for holidays 23.5 million were visiting friends or relatives 9.0 million were business trips 1.9 million were "miscellaneous"
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
What is your wider point?
There’s plenty of polling showing that the public is unimpressed with the government’s handling of the pandemic. There’s plenty of polling showing that lots of voters are sticking with the government anyway.
If you’re not going to reconsider your voting intention when a government has negligently killed tens of thousands, you can be safely labelled a blind partisan. There are, we now know, an awful lot of them.
This will lead to bad government, since ministers can see that they can be incompetent and corrupt without consequence. But that’s of no real concern to the blind partisans, who may get as far as tutting but that’s about it.
See also the 2005 GE. That Labour won a 66 seat majority after Iraq shows just how much partisanship counts for.
The 2005 GE was a particularly odd circumstance. Normally when the government does something stupid and unpopular, it loses support to the opposition. But IDS was in open full support for the stupid and unpopular thing, which rather negated it as a political issue. Yes, people headed off to vote LibDem (hurrah), but you coudn't argue for installing the other party into government because Iraq when they also supported Iraq.
It is a very clear historical lesson as why why Starmer shat the bed by backing the Brexit deal.
But back then there was a sizeable Lab-LD front (i.e. plenty of seats that go LD without the risk of letting the Tories in). Ultimately, Labour's core vote held firm despite Iraq. EDIT: and, of course, when it came to the election, the LDs targetted.... the Tories!
I thought the Lib Dems targeted both Labour and Tory, on a seat by seat basis. Quite right too, since they both abandonded all principle and just blindly followed Bush's instuctions.
I am not sure Bush even knows who the LibDems are let alone gives them instructions and checks they are following them.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
I understand you're pissed off with Government supporters on pb.com.
Would you care to answer my wider point?
What is your wider point?
There’s plenty of polling showing that the public is unimpressed with the government’s handling of the pandemic. There’s plenty of polling showing that lots of voters are sticking with the government anyway.
If you’re not going to reconsider your voting intention when a government has negligently killed tens of thousands, you can be safely labelled a blind partisan. There are, we now know, an awful lot of them.
This will lead to bad government, since ministers can see that they can be incompetent and corrupt without consequence. But that’s of no real concern to the blind partisans, who may get as far as tutting but that’s about it.
See also the 2005 GE. That Labour won a 66 seat majority after Iraq shows just how much partisanship counts for.
The 2005 GE was a particularly odd circumstance. Normally when the government does something stupid and unpopular, it loses support to the opposition. But IDS was in open full support for the stupid and unpopular thing, which rather negated it as a political issue. Yes, people headed off to vote LibDem (hurrah), but you coudn't argue for installing the other party into government because Iraq when they also supported Iraq.
It is a very clear historical lesson as why why Starmer shat the bed by backing the Brexit deal.
But back then there was a sizeable Lab-LD front (i.e. plenty of seats that go LD without the risk of letting the Tories in). Ultimately, Labour's core vote held firm despite Iraq. EDIT: and, of course, when it came to the election, the LDs targetted.... the Tories!
I thought the Lib Dems targeted both Labour and Tory, on a seat by seat basis. Quite right too, since they both abandonded all principle and just blindly followed Bush's instuctions.
Kennedy started his campaign at my college, targeting Surrey South West. They had a decapitation strategy... for the Tories (they got the bloke in Westmorland and Lonsdale).
Perhaps unsurprisingly, they did better against Labour:
Even if switching from Lab to LDs gave the Tories more seats, it would have taken a lot to get the Tories to the point of being the largest party on 32% of the vote. A Lab-LD coalition after 2005 was very much a possibility.
It is time some people relaxed and see these stories as a way to lighten the mood
They are not going to happen nor should they be taken seriously
Maybe they are to wind up those with no humour
Lets see how much public money gets wasted, before being so blasé.
This is what I don't get about Big G. He literally howls in rage at Drakeford and the Welsh government. Yet if Shagger wants to spaff vast sums of Big G's money up the wall on stupidity or corruption (or usually both) he takes the opposite line and gives it at least tacit approval.
If you're against wasting money then you're against it in all circumstances. If you're against politician/party x wasting public money but not your favoured politician/party then you're a hypocrite.
Humour fail if you take this seriously
Mate, I'm saying they will build it. I'm saying that Boris will spaff our money up the wall thinking about it. As he did with Boris Island. As he did with the Garden Bridge. As he did with the Cable Car. Personally I'd rather he not waste our money on stupid. You on the other hand are happy as long as it him wasting your money and not Drakeford.
Being poor, stressed & unemployed is not good for one's health either.
Something that many on PB simply wouldn't have a clue about.
Is the NHS going to be overwhelmed? No? Then open up more.
Although we are now as a matter of weeks away I see, as you do, no great harm in waiting, having come this far. But with that comes the danger that, like the pot of gold, it is always just out of reach.
I have been saying, literally, will no one think of the children, from an intellectual rather than emotional perspective, such as I possess one of the former. I gave the example of a six-yr old in July who, if they persist, will have been living with restrictions for 25% of their lives. That is shocking in concept enough.
But what really hit home was @Isam's post saying his 15-month old hadn't had any social contact with anyone outside their family. Quite extraordinary.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
Its whataboutery. Yes this is shit, but whatabout that? "What happened with care homes was bad". Bad = 20k dead who should still be alive. Its not bad, its bloody criminal. And you lot don't give a toss because Back Boris.
People die. In the end everybody dies. Mortality is 100% eventually. The majority of care home residents die within 12 months of entering a care home in normal circumstances.
Death can't be defeated, only postponed. In that people do their best, but nature is a bitch sometimes. The plague is natural it isn't anybodies fault. The vaccine is humanities credit, it is humanity once again battling and postponing death.
But anyone who dies its tragic but natural. Its not anybodies "fault" and its sickening to try and claim it is. People die.
Oh, and Alastair, given your views on Brexit and the supply of medicines, you should show some humility when it comes to the EU and vaccines. Their actions could have led to people like my parents not getting their shots. So, actually, they are very much relevant to us.
Alastair very firmly and unequivocally criticised the EU over its nonsense over vaccines.
This time really might be different, because of vaccination. Perhaps the Covid Alert Level could be reviewed in the light of this, and government decision-making based off that?
If not, what was the Covid Alert system for?
I cannot recall hearing about it once since it was announced. Maybe I haven't paid enough attention, but still.
My favourite* thing about the Nandos Covidometer was we spent a solid chunk of work last summer developing a plan for reopening the department based on it.
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
I think that the best thing the government could do would be a permanent reduction in duty for the on-trade - alcohol sales in licensed premises. Problem drinkers and health resulted alcohol issues do not stem from pubs to any great extent, and the social good provided by pubs in particular is something that is undervalued.
Also drop VAT on food served hot or for consumption on the premises, now that we have powers over VAT.
Business rates on pubs can continue to be waived too, they raise comparatively little but are a huge fixed cost to smaller operators.
Both of those were done last year. It would be a good idea to continue with those policies.
Oh, and Alastair, given your views on Brexit and the supply of medicines, you should show some humility when it comes to the EU and vaccines. Their actions could have led to people like my parents not getting their shots. So, actually, they are very much relevant to us.
Alastair very firmly and unequivocally criticised the EU over its nonsense over vaccines.
Did he? All I saw was a post saying that they looked stupid.
If this data out of Scotland stands up to scrutiny then the government has got to be bold. Let's got on with unlockdown and push even harder with the vaccine programme. Get all adults fully vaccinated with two doses by the middle of June.
I`m having a to-and-fro with a friend about the percentage of population that travel abroad at least once in a typical year. He reckons over 60%. I think that`s absurd and reckon less than 30%. Anyone know the answer?
I think your mate's right.
According to https://www.abta.com/news/more-brits-heading-holiday(who are doubtless biased, but still): 51% of Brits took a package holiday abroad in 2019. Add to that those who went abroad other than as part of a package holiday, and I'd expect it to be over 60%
That`s interesting, you`ve linked to exactly the same source my mate did. It says: "More than six in ten Brits (64%) took a foreign holiday in the 12 months to July 2019".
However, when you look more deeply you see this is a survey, N=2000, was conducted by what looks like a media PR organisation rather than a bona fide polling organisation. The cynical me says that this was commissioned by ABTA to puff up its own importance.
That's really a slur on the professionalism and objectivity of ABTA. I am sure they just go to the airport and interview passers by chosen strictly at random.
Presumably each tunnel would be extremely expensive, so even if any of them make sense would you need tunnels to both Liverpool and Heysham? If so, maybe add another fron Anglesea?
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
There are still tens of thousands of patients in hospital. There is still little capacity in the NHS even if we are on the way out.
It certainly could be possible that the NHS isn't at risk from schools reopening but would be at risk for a complete and utter free-for-all right now. In that case what do you propose? Keep damaging children's education until everything is lifted all in one go, or go step by step as its safe to do so?
"Celebrities" always get attention from MPs of all parties and the media. Its inevitable. Is your daughter in her local Chamber of Commerce? Or any other group similar? Presumably they'll be talking to ministers too.
At Winchester Hospital they went on Red Alert in mid January and stopped everything other than emergencies to deal with Covid. They had 107 patients at peak which only lasted a week and since early February case numbers in the hospital have fallen off a cliff. So much so thay they have already restarted all elective surgery. and have returned to "normal" very quickly.
They state in the story that there is a pre-print paper on SSRN - can't seem to find it...
I hope those "up to"s are not the upper 95% CI. Otherwise AZN can get higher than Pfizer by e.g. having a much smaller sample size. Like you, I'd love to see the pre-print (as discussed the other day, why can't they link to it or at least give enough info to easily find it?)
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
If that is the case and the Herald are claiming that a letter from a solicitor is a court case that shows that while professional journalism is better than twitter (the argument from yesterday) - the Herald is neither professional nor actual journalism.
Talking about poor quality journalism, Radio 4 this morning were trying to say all 10 million kids going back to school on March 8 was more risky than them going back in a phased fashion immediately. This made no sense to me as good level of immunity should have kicked for the vulnerable in England. Can anyone explain point they were trying to make with the question?
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
There are still tens of thousands of patients in hospital. There is still little capacity in the NHS even if we are on the way out.
It certainly could be possible that the NHS isn't at risk from schools reopening but would be at risk for a complete and utter free-for-all right now. In that case what do you propose? Keep damaging children's education until everything is lifted all in one go, or go step by step as its safe to do so?
"Celebrities" always get attention from MPs of all parties and the media. Its inevitable. Is your daughter in her local Chamber of Commerce? Or any other group similar? Presumably they'll be talking to ministers too.
At Winchester Hospital they went on Red Alert in mid January and stopped everything other than emergencies to deal with Covid. They had 107 patients at peak which only lasted a week and since early February case numbers in the hospital have fallen off a cliff. So much so thay they have already restarted all elective surgery. and have returned to "normal" very quickly.
Good for Winchester. The national figures are over 16k patients in hospital though which is just under the spring peak and about what it was after the November lockdown before the December surge. So no room for complacency but it is falling.
The governments of the UK did not mean to kill those people.
The governments of Europe are very much happy to kill their people to cover for their own incompetence.
Cutting off the flagged personal abuse, lets look at the point you were trying to make. From the government's guidance:
"On 2 April, the government reiterated in new guidance that “any [care home] resident presenting with symptoms of COVID-19 should be promptly isolated” but specified that “negative tests are not required prior to transfers / admissions into the care home.”
This was the situation up to 15 April, when the government published its adult social care action plan which said that trusts would need to test all patients prior to being discharged and admitted into a care home.
This was required whether or not the patient had Covid-19 symptoms.
The government acknowledged that some people may still be moved into a care home, while having the illness, as “some care providers will be able to accommodate these individuals through effective isolation strategies or cohorting strategies.” " https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/
At the beginning of April the government knew specifically what sending Covid positive people into a closed environment would do. They had plenty of experience - hospitals. It was absolutely clear that it would spread the virus to the very people most likely to quickly die of it.
If you recall they kept denying - lying - that they had issued these instructions. They had to lie because they knew what the reaction would be once the death rate in care homes exploded.
So when you say that governments are "happy to kill their people in order to cover for their own incompetence" you are directly and literally describing the UK government.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
Its whataboutery. Yes this is shit, but whatabout that? "What happened with care homes was bad". Bad = 20k dead who should still be alive. Its not bad, its bloody criminal. And you lot don't give a toss because Back Boris.
XXXX off you XXXX. I do care. I also care about intent. The governments of the UK did not mean to kill those people.
The governments of Europe are very much happy to kill their people to cover for their own incompetence.
Can you see the logic fail? You think it impossible that one govt would mean to kill its own population, but think it meanwhile entirely likely, certain even, that another govt would.
And during those weeks how many more millions of people will be vaccinated ?
If the Herald story is correct about the efficacy of a single vaccination of either Pfizer or AZN - and it does match information from elsewhere....
Then for the first time in this epidemic, the government can plan ahead with some confidence.
From the reports during the push to get the first 15 million vaccinated, we know that the supply chain is quite long and slow for vaccines. Weeks before that, apparently all the vaccine was made, just not bottled or QA'd.
So there are probably many millions of doses, in the UK, in the chain and on the way.
So the supply is locked in for weeks in advance.
So the government can say, with a high degree of certainty that they can deliver x millions doses by y date.
So, as you say, they can allow R to rise in the short term, knowing that it will be crushed, shortly.
Presumably each tunnel would be extremely expensive, so even if any of them make sense would you need tunnels to both Liverpool and Heysham? If so, maybe add another fron Anglesea?
Anglesea to Liverpool is already extremely well connected and has its own tunnel available. Would it not make sense for people from Anglesea to go via Liverpool?
Being poor, stressed & unemployed is not good for one's health either.
Something that many on PB simply wouldn't have a clue about.
Is the NHS going to be overwhelmed? No? Then open up more.
Although we are now as a matter of weeks away I see, as you do, no great harm in waiting, having come this far. But with that comes the danger that, like the pot of gold, it is always just out of reach.
I have been saying, literally, will no one think of the children, from an intellectual rather than emotional perspective, such as I possess one of the former. I gave the example of a six-yr old in July who, if they persist, will have been living with restrictions for 25% of their lives. That is shocking in concept enough.
But what really hit home was @Isam's post saying his 15-month old hadn't had any social contact with anyone outside their family. Quite extraordinary.
I have seen the stress on the NHS first hand, and certainly locally it has not gone away. The numbers of inpatients and ICU are about half the January peak. A backward step is very possible, even likely. Few in ICU are in groups eligible for the vaccine.
Nonetheless, things do need to be balanced, and there needs to be some gradual return to normal. Many children are getting excellent home schooling, but many are getting next to no education. We are entrenching a lot of social disadvantage.
They state in the story that there is a pre-print paper on SSRN - can't seem to find it...
I hope those "up to"s are not the upper 95% CI. Otherwise AZN can get higher than Pfizer by e.g. having a much smaller sample size. Like you, I'd love to see the pre-print (as discussed the other day, why can't they link to it or at least give enough info to easily find it?)
If newspapers linked to the ONS or SSRN pre prints, then the ONS and SSRN would become media giants... LOL
I suspect because all 3 Governments did it, then it was based on scientific/medical advice (which turned out to be deadly advice).
It is always interesting to see it is pb.com lawyers (like Meeks & Co) who convict immediately without hearing any case for the defence
The idea makes sense if you think about it.
Assuming we don't have any Covid cases in the hospital (and as we don't see any Covid cases) rapidly releasing people back into care homes will free up hospital beds.
Sadly the assumption was wrong and that false assumption the deaths.
If it had been done a few days / weeks earlier then the disaster wouldn't have occurred..
That simply isn't true. It was obviously a mistake at the time.
If you read the detailed guidance for discharge, it included those who had or might have Covid, provided they weren't in serious condition. (Note that some hospitals - for example @Foxy 's, according to his posts at the time - exercised rather more caution.)
It was very clear that a government decision was made to clear hospital space at all costs, and very little consideration was given to the consequences for care homes.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
Its whataboutery. Yes this is shit, but whatabout that? "What happened with care homes was bad". Bad = 20k dead who should still be alive. Its not bad, its bloody criminal. And you lot don't give a toss because Back Boris.
XXXX off you XXXX. I do care. I also care about intent. The governments of the UK did not mean to kill those people.
The governments of Europe are very much happy to kill their people to cover for their own incompetence.
Can you see the logic fail? You think it impossible that one govt would mean to kill its own population, but think it meanwhile entirely likely, certain even, that another govt would.
The Russians.
The Russians have claimed their death toll is minimal and the virus is undercontrol. Meanwhile their excess deaths are over a quarter of a million and counting by November alone. They supposedly have a great vaccine but are only giving it to VIPs and not their vulnerable population it seems.
Whether Putin sees the virus as a way of cleansing his demographics saving on pension support etc - or if he just has a callous indifference to whether the elderly peasants in his nation die so long as he's safe, its clear they're not trying to halt the spread in the same way we are.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
Its whataboutery. Yes this is shit, but whatabout that? "What happened with care homes was bad". Bad = 20k dead who should still be alive. Its not bad, its bloody criminal. And you lot don't give a toss because Back Boris.
XXXX off you XXXX. I do care. I also care about intent. The governments of the UK did not mean to kill those people.
The governments of Europe are very much happy to kill their people to cover for their own incompetence.
Can you see the logic fail? You think it impossible that one govt would mean to kill its own population, but think it meanwhile entirely likely, certain even, that another govt would.
The Russians.
The Russians have claimed their death toll is minimal and the virus is undercontrol. Meanwhile their excess deaths are over a quarter of a million and counting by November alone. They supposedly have a great vaccine but are only giving it to VIPs and not their vulnerable population it seems.
Whether Putin sees the virus as a way of cleansing his demographics saving on pension support etc - or if he just has a callous indifference to whether the elderly peasants in his nation die so long as he's safe, its clear they're not trying to halt the spread in the same way we are.
We in the 21st century west value individual human lives more than any other society in history. That is why we are locked down. Russia is a country where even Stalin enjoys relatively high approval ratings. It's a choice we would never make today but it is still a choice.
Presumably each tunnel would be extremely expensive, so even if any of them make sense would you need tunnels to both Liverpool and Heysham? If so, maybe add another fron Anglesea?
Anglesea to Liverpool is already extremely well connected and has its own tunnel available. Would it not make sense for people from Anglesea to go via Liverpool?
If the project only makes "sense" as a political one designed to capture the headlines, without worrying about practicality or cost, then you might as well draw in as many spurs as possible.
I suspect because all 3 Governments did it, then it was based on scientific/medical advice (which turned out to be deadly advice).
It is always interesting to see it is pb.com lawyers (like Meeks & Co) who convict immediately without hearing any case for the defence
The idea makes sense if you think about it.
Assuming we don't have any Covid cases in the hospital (and as we don't see any Covid cases) rapidly releasing people back into care homes will free up hospital beds.
Sadly the assumption was wrong and that false assumption the deaths.
If it had been done a few days / weeks earlier then the disaster wouldn't have occurred..
That simply isn't true. It was obviously a mistake at the time.
If you read the detailed guidance for discharge, it included those who had or might have Covid, provided they weren't in serious condition. (Note that some hospitals - for example @Foxy 's, according to his posts at the time - exercised rather more caution.)
It was very clear that a government decision was made to clear hospital space at all costs, and very little consideration was given to the consequences for care homes.
Yes, I think this a fair summary. One problem was that we could not test before discharge as the tests were so heavily rationed, another was that we knew that carehomes lacked both PPE and experience of how to isolate. The results were entirely predictable.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Our government ordered the NHS to send elderly patients back into care homes. A direct instruction - https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/ Which directly killed tens of thousands. If the government wasn't responsible for the absolutely avoidable slaughter in care homes then who was?
I don't disagree. Perhaps there will be prosecutions when this is all over.
If you agree, why did you call out the idea that the government is responsible for killing tens of thousands? I don't care what they do in Europe, that's not our responsibility. Nor is it an either/or - BOTH things can be true.
As I keep pointing out, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a massive success. That in no way negates the general chaos and mass slaughter before it - we could have done things responsibly for a year and THEN had a massive success with vaccination. It isn't an either/or...
I was just curious as to what Alastair thought about other governments. What happened with care homes was bad, but one could argue the governments of the UK were faced with no good options.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
Its whataboutery. Yes this is shit, but whatabout that? "What happened with care homes was bad". Bad = 20k dead who should still be alive. Its not bad, its bloody criminal. And you lot don't give a toss because Back Boris.
XXXX off you XXXX. I do care. I also care about intent. The governments of the UK did not mean to kill those people.
The governments of Europe are very much happy to kill their people to cover for their own incompetence.
Can you see the logic fail? You think it impossible that one govt would mean to kill its own population, but think it meanwhile entirely likely, certain even, that another govt would.
The Russians.
The Russians have claimed their death toll is minimal and the virus is undercontrol. Meanwhile their excess deaths are over a quarter of a million and counting by November alone. They supposedly have a great vaccine but are only giving it to VIPs and not their vulnerable population it seems.
Whether Putin sees the virus as a way of cleansing his demographics saving on pension support etc - or if he just has a callous indifference to whether the elderly peasants in his nation die so long as he's safe, its clear they're not trying to halt the spread in the same way we are.
They’re also exporting the vaccine to anyone who will take it - apart from oil, it’s pretty much their only source of hard currency, and it looks like money in the bank is more important to them than vaccinating their own.
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
Bollocks.
A letter from lawyers was sent demanding actions and demanding payment of £2,500. That's legal action.
It may not be courts, but getting lawyers to demand £2,500 off someone is legal action. What else would you call it? An invoice for services rendered?
I'd call it a threat of legal action. I'll happily defer to any lawyers (I know we have a few) who would like to correct me. The threat is also pretty vague in this case.
If no apology is made, no payment given and Cherry takes it no further, is it still legal action? I'd call that piss and wind. Or legal inaction, perhaps.
My view point on this may be influenced by a previous role I had as one of a number of volunteers running a website that hosted software that some people argued was illegal (it was not). We got 'legal' letters on a fairly regular basis but were entirely happy with our legal position and ignored them. None of them were ever followed up. I would not say anyone ever took legal action against us.
On the other hand, if any of those had gone to court, I may have seen the letter as the start of legal action. I therefore gracefully withdraw from this debate without admitting fault or declaring victory
The governments of the UK did not mean to kill those people.
The governments of Europe are very much happy to kill their people to cover for their own incompetence.
Cutting off the flagged personal abuse, lets look at the point you were trying to make. From the government's guidance:
"On 2 April, the government reiterated in new guidance that “any [care home] resident presenting with symptoms of COVID-19 should be promptly isolated” but specified that “negative tests are not required prior to transfers / admissions into the care home.”
This was the situation up to 15 April, when the government published its adult social care action plan which said that trusts would need to test all patients prior to being discharged and admitted into a care home.
This was required whether or not the patient had Covid-19 symptoms.
The government acknowledged that some people may still be moved into a care home, while having the illness, as “some care providers will be able to accommodate these individuals through effective isolation strategies or cohorting strategies.” " https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/
At the beginning of April the government knew specifically what sending Covid positive people into a closed environment would do. They had plenty of experience - hospitals. It was absolutely clear that it would spread the virus to the very people most likely to quickly die of it.
If you recall they kept denying - lying - that they had issued these instructions. They had to lie because they knew what the reaction would be once the death rate in care homes exploded.
So when you say that governments are "happy to kill their people in order to cover for their own incompetence" you are directly and literally describing the UK government.
Something about planks and splinters...
Fair enough, but I still think they were making the "how do we save the most lives (life?)?"
Perhaps they got it wrong - and I think there was a little too much "protect the NHS" going on - but it is still a world away from actively destroying the reputation of a vaccine.
All that reminds me of Gordon Brown over the Global Economic Crisis.
Brown's failings were before the financial crisis.
Johnson wasn't even PM a year before this. Between vaccines and genomic sequencing he's ensured we are well placed to come out of it first though.
Hmmm, I’m not sure which claim is sillier the idea that he had no influence on policy before he became PM or the idea that he was personally involved in vaccines or genomic sequencing.
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to set up and pay for COGUK?
You think Boris had nothing to do with setting up and paying for the vaccine taskforce?
You think Boris had nothing to do with the decision to reject opposition advice about joining the EU scheme instead?
The Kumbaya boys are back! ....Felix....Sandpit.....
Given how many pbers regard the avoidable deaths of tens of thousands as excusable and something to be discreetly forgotten as quickly as possible, to the point of snarling viciously at anyone who has the effrontery to mention it, you’re not likely to find a balanced assessment of the government’s role from the site’s government supporters.
Ok, but do you have any evidence to the contrary from the electorate at large on this?
Because what we keep hearing from the LOTO's office is that voters are inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, and don't like it when they're attacked over the pandemic.
What we’ve learned in the last year is that there is a substantial cohort of voters (well-represented on pb) for whom anything this government does, up to and including negligently killing tens of thousands, is excusable. Can you imagine how they would have reacted if Jeremy Corbyn had presided over the shambles we’ve seen this last year?
This is of course utterly contemptible, but there are betting implications to be drawn from this level of loyalty.
Alastair, I completely agree that the government's performance has been woeful.
But, if you think our government is responsible for killing tens of thousands, presumably you think the same (if not worse) of the leaders in Europe who have pro-actively destroyed the reputation of a vaccine to the point that the people don't want it. I mean, that is fucking special.
Thanks to Leavers, I no longer have a direct interest in the running of the EU and its member states. I will therefore concern myself with the many ineptitudes of the UK government.
Quite why Leavers remain so obsessed with the EU is remarkable. It’s almost as though they regret their decision at a primal level and are continuing to cast around for rationales to justify a decision made on fathomless hatred rather than cool logic.
A bravura post! It is alarming and quite shocking how much ill will and naked venom is shown to the EU on this site. I think your theory that at a primal level there is a wish to punish the EU for forcing us make such a regressive decision.
Sissy Spacek's mother in the film Carrie keeps coming to mind.
Gosh that's a stunning scoop from Guido. Labour leader takes advice from, er, former Labour leader and PM. Who's have thought it?
Guido wants to promote that because it will enrage the Corbynites. Who seem happy to accept "news" from sources like Novara or Order Order because its not the biased MSM.
If this data out of Scotland stands up to scrutiny then the government has got to be bold. Let's got on with unlockdown and push even harder with the vaccine programme. Get all adults fully vaccinated with two doses by the middle of June.
That's impossible I think, particularly given the 2nd AZ dose is more effacious 12 weeks from the first.
But the program should be rolling quicker, we ought to be on 500k jabs a day, every day !
One of the points we should bear in mind (if these press reports are accurate) is that they show the PM really is making his own decisions, not those of SAGE. They want to keep schools shut for another couple of weeks.
Admittedly he may be listening to the advice of the DfE instead given they are absolutely desperate to reopen schools at once at any cost (except financial ones, which they are refusing to meet).
It could be a terrible blunder given how useless they all are, but it does show the idea that SAGE are lizard people who have captured the government is well wide of the mark.
Good.
Children have suffered enough blows to their education. If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then schools should be open.
If the NHS isn't at risk of collapse then everywhere should be open. That was after all the reason for the lockdown in the first place: to allow the NHS to cope. If it can there is no justification for continuing with lockdowns.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
There are still tens of thousands of patients in hospital. There is still little capacity in the NHS even if we are on the way out.
It certainly could be possible that the NHS isn't at risk from schools reopening but would be at risk for a complete and utter free-for-all right now. In that case what do you propose? Keep damaging children's education until everything is lifted all in one go, or go step by step as its safe to do so?
"Celebrities" always get attention from MPs of all parties and the media. Its inevitable. Is your daughter in her local Chamber of Commerce? Or any other group similar? Presumably they'll be talking to ministers too.
If this data out of Scotland stands up to scrutiny then the government has got to be bold. Let's got on with unlockdown and push even harder with the vaccine programme. Get all adults fully vaccinated with two doses by the middle of June.
That's impossible I think, particularly given the 2nd AZ dose is more effacious 12 weeks from the first.
But the program should be rolling quicker, we ought to be on 500k jabs a day, every day !
If we're not, then by April the programme will have ground to a halt as far as new first jabs are concerned.
Comments
If you were going to do that you'd have one link from Scotland to NI and another from England to NI, via the IoM, and you might have a micro-roundabout to link them.
You wouldn't have Tom, Dick and Harry.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-test-and-trace-england-statistics-4-february-to-10-february-2021/weekly-statistics-for-nhs-test-and-trace-england-4-february-to-10-february-2021
Of the cases transferred to the contact tracing system between 4 February and 10 February, 86.9% were reached and asked to provide information about their recent close contacts. This has remained broadly consistent over the past 3 months.
For those where communication details were available, 96.5% of close contacts were reached and told to self-isolate in the most recent week. Taking into account all contacts identified, 93.6% were reached in the most recent week.
EDIT: and, of course, when it came to the election, the LDs targetted.... the Tories!
(Also, were the Governments acting on scientific advice? Scientists can be wrong, especially when working with poor data).
He means "over 65s"
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/leisureandtourism/articles/traveltrends/2017
I'm surprised too.
Actively undermining a vaccine. Well, that's another level of badness.
But in any case I am not hopeful about today. Nor is Daughter. General disgust at Sunak talking to Gordon Ramsay , a multi-millionaire whose response during the first lockdown was to sack most of his staff - unlike people like my daughter who has kept on her staff despite furlough now not paying all their wages or NI or pension contributions and despite the £1k bonus for keeping staff on until February being removed.
Behave decently in this country and you get taken for a fool by the powers in charge.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/480160/share-of-britons-going-on-holiday-abroad/
but the source is only revealed to subscribers; I suspect it may be the same ABTA survey. The data is however consistent from one year to the next.
I have a different attitude - I don't blame the officials greatly for the admittedly terrible error,but I also give them little credit for the vaccine rollout. Both I believe stem from a strong centralised NHS controlling the delivery
Was in the Co-op on Arran stocking up for a holiday cottage I'd been lent. The woman in front of me at the check-out was getting very exasperated. She was trying to buy several loaves, but was being told that they were past their sell-by date, so would have to have be withdrawn from sale.
She clearly couldn't comprehend why this should be a problem.
"Och, they're only for the bairns!"
It is always interesting to see it is pb.com lawyers (like Meeks & Co) who convict immediately without hearing any case for the defence
It doesn't really matter, though, as in any event it helps confirm the encouraging data from elsewhere. Bottom line is that the vaccines work pretty well (and far better than the more cautious forecasts last year).
But in that first month a lot of Pfizer would have been used on NHS workers.
An overall reduction of over 80% means that there is no way hospitalizations are going to soar no matter how quickly restrictions are lifted.
There are too many people already vaccinated for that to happen.
https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1363790298242043904?s=20
Whether the same is true for Starmer in 2024 remains to be seen
It appears that the multi text that was sent out on Friday afternoon that was supposed to get us to turn up "tomorrow" at 8.15 ie on Sat am was not released until 10.10am on Sat ..of course we were meant to attend Sat am as the vaccine expired Sat 10.15. am. So an almighty cock up due the multi recipient text not going out immediately.. we don't think the vaccine was wasted,we think it went to key workers..
Is it common that multiple recipient texts get delayed on.this way...???
None of that that really confirms the claims for effectiveness.
But given the deaths and illnesses (and having seen and endured both in the family) I would rather it went on a bit longer than be cut short prematurely with the risk of having to be reimposed PROVIDED there is proper support for those affected while it endures.
My concern is that there isn't and hasn't been for some while. It is easy to be pro-lockdown if you have a secure job and a secure income. But I now have neither. Nor has Daughter or one of my sons. Our family income has been severely affected and we have had to eat into savings far more than we thought. God knows how - and if - we will be able to replenish them.
We are nonetheless relatively OK compared to many others.
For those without a secure income or job, financial anxieties are piled onto health ones and, as the latter decline with more being vaccinated, the former become more prominent. Being poor, stressed & unemployed is not good for one's health either. This latter point is at risk of being overlooked by those who are more comfortably off.
A letter from lawyers was sent demanding actions and demanding payment of £2,500. That's legal action.
It may not be courts, but getting lawyers to demand £2,500 off someone is legal action. What else would you call it? An invoice for services rendered?
Crab Air was dropping Paveway IVs (cost: £30,000 ea.) on Islamic State "encampments" in Iraq last week. It'll all be over by Christmas.
More broadly, I expect the UK's national vaccine "warfooting" to be maintained (or at least kept in abeyance) for the next 18-24 months, until the virus has been largely supressed globally.
Assuming we don't have any Covid cases in the hospital (and as we don't see any Covid cases) rapidly releasing people back into care homes will free up hospital beds.
Sadly the assumption was wrong and that false assumption the deaths.
If it had been done a few days / weeks earlier then the disaster wouldn't have occurred..
However, my anger with Drakeford is historical due to failures in the Wales NHS and Education pre covid affecting members of my family but also when he introduced the 14 day lockdown he insisted it was all that was needed and immediately opened Wales up to normal activity creating a crisis that was predictable
From the ONS, all I can get rapidly is that there were 93.1 million trips abroad by Brits in 2019.
Of course, the average number of trips abroad per person will be crucial there - if those who travelled abroad did an average of 10 trips each, that'd be only 9.3 million travelling abroad.
So, overall, if the average number of trips abroad by Brits who travelled abroad at all was 2.3 or fewer, your mate's right.
If the mean number of trips is 4.6 or greater, you're right.
Remember, of course, that while there will be a few who travel a lot, there will be many who only go once or so, so... plenty of scope for argument there.
Macron - are you listening? Handelsplatt - are you litstening? Your boys took a hell of a beating...
Dickheads, playing political games with peoples lives. They should hang their heads in shame.
It is naive to believe otherwise, because 90% of my cases are resolved at the "informal stage".
Unfortunately in terms of terminology the Court's own rules (in England) contradict themselves by referring to this as "pre-action" correspondence; but at the point you're complying with the Court's rules, you're part of a Court process.
It certainly could be possible that the NHS isn't at risk from schools reopening but would be at risk for a complete and utter free-for-all right now. In that case what do you propose? Keep damaging children's education until everything is lifted all in one go, or go step by step as its safe to do so?
"Celebrities" always get attention from MPs of all parties and the media. Its inevitable. Is your daughter in her local Chamber of Commerce? Or any other group similar? Presumably they'll be talking to ministers too.
I don't see it as a party political issue, and I rather wish people like Alastair would refrain from casting it as such.
The Garden Bridge cost millions before it was scrapped and the Cable Car's first real customers are going to be the Greater London Authority as they start using the Crystal as their new offices.
Business rates on pubs can continue to be waived too, they raise comparatively little but are a huge fixed cost to smaller operators.
If Schools are re-opening and shops aren't we are simply moving back to November's level 4 lockdown. And that makes sense at the moment - we still need to reduce hospital numbers further.
58.7 million were for holidays
23.5 million were visiting friends or relatives
9.0 million were business trips
1.9 million were "miscellaneous"
Perhaps unsurprisingly, they did better against Labour:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/gainsandlosses_ld.stm
Even if switching from Lab to LDs gave the Tories more seats, it would have taken a lot to get the Tories to the point of being the largest party on 32% of the vote. A Lab-LD coalition after 2005 was very much a possibility.
I had to look to see if it was 1st April
Is the NHS going to be overwhelmed? No? Then open up more.
Although we are now as a matter of weeks away I see, as you do, no great harm in waiting, having come this far. But with that comes the danger that, like the pot of gold, it is always just out of reach.
I have been saying, literally, will no one think of the children, from an intellectual rather than emotional perspective, such as I possess one of the former. I gave the example of a six-yr old in July who, if they persist, will have been living with restrictions for 25% of their lives. That is shocking in concept enough.
But what really hit home was @Isam's post saying his 15-month old hadn't had any social contact with anyone outside their family. Quite extraordinary.
Death can't be defeated, only postponed. In that people do their best, but nature is a bitch sometimes. The plague is natural it isn't anybodies fault. The vaccine is humanities credit, it is humanity once again battling and postponing death.
But anyone who dies its tragic but natural. Its not anybodies "fault" and its sickening to try and claim it is. People die.
Saw it once more, when it went back up to 5.
It would be helpful to see who likes Boris & DK Sir Keir, who likes Sir Keir but dislikes Boris, and so on.
I reckon there is something fundamentally wrong with using Net Satisfaction and am trying to work my way through why
(apologies if I missed something stronger)
If so, maybe add another fron Anglesea?
https://twitter.com/YearCovid/status/1363793404128157696?s=19
"On 2 April, the government reiterated in new guidance that “any [care home] resident presenting with symptoms of COVID-19 should be promptly isolated” but specified that “negative tests are not required prior to transfers / admissions into the care home.”
This was the situation up to 15 April, when the government published its adult social care action plan which said that trusts would need to test all patients prior to being discharged and admitted into a care home.
This was required whether or not the patient had Covid-19 symptoms.
The government acknowledged that some people may still be moved into a care home, while having the illness, as “some care providers will be able to accommodate these individuals through effective isolation strategies or cohorting strategies.” " https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/
At the beginning of April the government knew specifically what sending Covid positive people into a closed environment would do. They had plenty of experience - hospitals. It was absolutely clear that it would spread the virus to the very people most likely to quickly die of it.
If you recall they kept denying - lying - that they had issued these instructions. They had to lie because they knew what the reaction would be once the death rate in care homes exploded.
So when you say that governments are "happy to kill their people in order to cover for their own incompetence" you are directly and literally describing the UK government.
Something about planks and splinters...
Then for the first time in this epidemic, the government can plan ahead with some confidence.
From the reports during the push to get the first 15 million vaccinated, we know that the supply chain is quite long and slow for vaccines. Weeks before that, apparently all the vaccine was made, just not bottled or QA'd.
So there are probably many millions of doses, in the UK, in the chain and on the way.
So the supply is locked in for weeks in advance.
So the government can say, with a high degree of certainty that they can deliver x millions doses by y date.
So, as you say, they can allow R to rise in the short term, knowing that it will be crushed, shortly.
Nonetheless, things do need to be balanced, and there needs to be some gradual return to normal. Many children are getting excellent home schooling, but many are getting next to no education. We are entrenching a lot of social disadvantage.
It was obviously a mistake at the time.
If you read the detailed guidance for discharge, it included those who had or might have Covid, provided they weren't in serious condition. (Note that some hospitals - for example @Foxy 's, according to his posts at the time - exercised rather more caution.)
It was very clear that a government decision was made to clear hospital space at all costs, and very little consideration was given to the consequences for care homes.
The Russians have claimed their death toll is minimal and the virus is undercontrol. Meanwhile their excess deaths are over a quarter of a million and counting by November alone. They supposedly have a great vaccine but are only giving it to VIPs and not their vulnerable population it seems.
Whether Putin sees the virus as a way of cleansing his demographics saving on pension support etc - or if he just has a callous indifference to whether the elderly peasants in his nation die so long as he's safe, its clear they're not trying to halt the spread in the same way we are.
My guess is that Boris wants one of these:
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/faroe-islands-underwater-roundabout
There's clearly space for an additional spur from IOM to Dublin but that appears to have been vetoed.
If no apology is made, no payment given and Cherry takes it no further, is it still legal action? I'd call that piss and wind. Or legal inaction, perhaps.
My view point on this may be influenced by a previous role I had as one of a number of volunteers running a website that hosted software that some people argued was illegal (it was not). We got 'legal' letters on a fairly regular basis but were entirely happy with our legal position and ignored them. None of them were ever followed up. I would not say anyone ever took legal action against us.
On the other hand, if any of those had gone to court, I may have seen the letter as the start of legal action. I therefore gracefully withdraw from this debate without admitting fault or declaring victory
Perhaps they got it wrong - and I think there was a little too much "protect the NHS" going on - but it is still a world away from actively destroying the reputation of a vaccine.
Sissy Spacek's mother in the film Carrie keeps coming to mind.
But the program should be rolling quicker, we ought to be on 500k jabs a day, every day !
Daughter contacted her local MP before Xmas and was promised a meeting. Still waiting ......
Sunak is more interested in personal publicity than in really finding out what is going on. IMO.