The 2 biggest screwups of this pandemic by our government are moving people into care homes and allowing unrestricted international travel for most of the last 14 months. Both undoubtedly caused thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of unnecessary deaths.
On the first I would say this. This decision was made at the time that we were seeking to set up the Nightingale hospitals, where the media were full of pictures of the disaster in northern Italy and the many, many unnecessary deaths suffered there because their health system was overwhelmed. The expectation of the government at the time was that the NHS would be similarly overwhelmed in early course. I think SAGE and other advisors from the NHS were seriously close to panic, and rightly so.
In that environment some pretty tough decisions were made. A lot of hospital beds were filled with what we have traditionally called bed blockers, people who didn't really need to be in hospital but were because our care system is crap and a suitable plan had not been put together. I suspect instructions were given to move these people out whether they had a full care plan or not so that the beds were available for those for whom they might do more good. So they were punted to care homes with minimal plans and, critically, no checks as to whether they had themselves been infected.
As it turns out the Nightingale hospitals were barely used, although the NHS was stretched severely it did not fall over and things did not turn out as bad as had entirely reasonably been feared. That makes the decision to move people out to care homes where inadequately trained and provisioned staff failed to prevent the spread of the disease amongst many of our most vulnerable look very wrong. And it was wrong, but only in hindsight.
I am not saying this is right, I simply say that there is a plausible explanation for what happened and that explanation is consistent with the same thing happening in England, Scotland, Wales and NI, apparently independently. I think it is possible that this decision might be justifiable at the time it was made.
Our policies on air travel throughout the pandemic, however, I simply find beyond rational explanation.
Good post. Not to say that it would have changed things - perhaps it wouldn't have - but its attempt to "keep the UK open", and thereby continue with international air travel, might have been a (large?) factor in the government going all in and early on the vaccines.
Hmm, from reading what's available the original vaccine drive started in around February with a group of UK biotech companies getting together independently to support the development of the Oxford vaccine. I'm not sure how much of a factor air travel was. I think the government has always seen vaccines as the endgame state so would have done it regardless.
What's interesting is that the UK suffers from almost no vaccine hesitancy and that is in part due to the horrific death rates over the last year and the government linking unlockdown to vaccination. In a perverse way the high death toll may end up meaning a much faster and higher take up of vaccines by the general public. In SK there is much higher vaccine hesitancy, a lot of that is surely because they've not had the alternative of people dying in their thousands and hospitals being overwhelmed leading to indefinite lockdowns.
Just been invited to an Online Gaudy for my old college. Can't imagine anything less gaudy-like than another bloody Zoom...
I'm going to wait a few years before my next one when they can be in person again. I'm cautiously optimistic that the OU Society East Kent Garden Party will be able to happen in July.
Just reading through the thread, and need to check that I've got this right.
1. The UK's current very high death rate compared to most others, in Europe and beyond, tells us nothing. We need to wait for a more reliable excess death measure before we can compare properly, and that is some way off. (And anyway, foreigners aren't as good at collecting data as us.)
2. The EU's absymal record on vaccine rollout is inevitably going to lead to tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people dying unnecessarily. We know this to be true (although death rates are currently lower in virtually all EU countries than ours, it's just a matter of time before they overtake us), even though there's no evidence for it yet.
Trouble is, there's nobody on here defending the EU vaccination approach (despite their being some initial rationale for it), but it still merits constantly repetitive attacks on the EU from several posters. It's a bit boring: the EU messed up. Do we need to keep repeating it?
Death rates are an important metric, but only in Wales (and it is an appalling record, a shade worse than England- per 100,000) which is run by an administration of the wrong coloured stripe.
The 2 biggest screwups of this pandemic by our government are moving people into care homes and allowing unrestricted international travel for most of the last 14 months. Both undoubtedly caused thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of unnecessary deaths.
On the first I would say this. This decision was made at the time that we were seeking to set up the Nightingale hospitals, where the media were full of pictures of the disaster in northern Italy and the many, many unnecessary deaths suffered there because their health system was overwhelmed. The expectation of the government at the time was that the NHS would be similarly overwhelmed in early course. I think SAGE and other advisors from the NHS were seriously close to panic, and rightly so.
In that environment some pretty tough decisions were made. A lot of hospital beds were filled with what we have traditionally called bed blockers, people who didn't really need to be in hospital but were because our care system is crap and a suitable plan had not been put together. I suspect instructions were given to move these people out whether they had a full care plan or not so that the beds were available for those for whom they might do more good. So they were punted to care homes with minimal plans and, critically, no checks as to whether they had themselves been infected.
As it turns out the Nightingale hospitals were barely used, although the NHS was stretched severely it did not fall over and things did not turn out as bad as had entirely reasonably been feared. That makes the decision to move people out to care homes where inadequately trained and provisioned staff failed to prevent the spread of the disease amongst many of our most vulnerable look very wrong. And it was wrong, but only in hindsight.
I am not saying this is right, I simply say that there is a plausible explanation for what happened and that explanation is consistent with the same thing happening in England, Scotland, Wales and NI, apparently independently. I think it is possible that this decision might be justifiable at the time it was made.
Our policies on air travel throughout the pandemic, however, I simply find beyond rational explanation.
Good post. Not to say that it would have changed things - perhaps it wouldn't have - but its attempt to "keep the UK open", and thereby continue with international air travel, might have been a (large?) factor in the government going all in and early on the vaccines.
I think there is something in that. I think, though, that it was the care home decision that history will look back on as the catastrophic error.
Just been invited to an Online Gaudy for my old college. Can't imagine anything less gaudy-like than another bloody Zoom...
I'm going to wait a few years before my next one when they can be in person again. I'm cautiously optimistic that the OU Society East Kent Garden Party will be able to happen in July.
Indeed. Why it hasn't been converted into a summer garden party I'm not quite sure...
I do fear there is going to be an institutional slowness to lots of things which ought to return to normal very quickly.
Someone this morning mentioned masks 'till spring 2022' - I just don't see why they're justified when the entire population has been offered a jab?
Another little reported factoid, the EMA took a 2 week holiday over Christmas.... delaying approvals.
Don't we get the link to Guido/Soaraway Sun!
Is this true? Very tempting to tickle EuroDave with it.
I not sure I can be bothered to go through 2 weeks worth of Dr John Campbell videos to find the relevant bit, but he had a segment about it, with the exact dates the EMA offices was closed down over the Christmas / New Year period.
I've been wondering this. One of the key reasons the pro-gun lobby often cites for why the Second Amendment is so important to them is some variant of "in case the government goes evil and starts trying to oppress its citizens". While we can agree to disagree on whether the 2020 election constituted such a measure, it is beyond question that there were people in the crowd who genuinely believed the election had been "stolen" from Trump. I'm not sure I buy that their willingness to oppose what they saw as tyranny was limited by the potential consequences, but I'm very glad if it was.
Is there any particular reason this is regarded as such a bad idea? I mean we have a tunnel from England to France...
I think it's a super idea myself, though this is the first time I've seen the Manx Interchange plan. Seems a bit of a weird one, as you have to go well out of your way to get from Scotland to NI and vice versa (though I assume it must still be quicker than the ferry).
The water between NI and Scotland is full of munitions. This route doesn't seem to be.
Though I'm curious why Stanraer for Scotland. I'd have thought a more Eastern point in Scotland would have made more sense given the IOM middle point - but I'm not too au fait with Scottish geography or if there's a good reason for it to be Stanraer.
Looking at a map of Scotland I'd have thought somewhere like Kirkcudbright on the way to Dumfries and still on the A75 would make more sense?
There are muntions to the NW of the IoM. Luce Bay on the "Stranraer Route" was a military practice range for years. The routes going east to England go through the oil and gas fields...
I did remind Philip of Johnson's record with water crossings yesterday. He countered by explaining that the £63m invisible Garden Bridge over the Thames was an excellent idea scuppered by a reckless Khan.
So @Beibheirli_C you should be looking to blame the future administration that inevitably pulls the plug on this demonstration of Johnson's foresight and ambition.
Is the easier answer not that they were insurrectionists but rather that they were a bunch of hooligans on a day trip?
Hooligans on a day trip don’t bring flex-cuffs, radios & bear spray to the party.
Nor did most of the so-called insurrectionists.
What percentage did?
No idea but it has been reported around 15 per cent were ex-military. My impression from the videos of last month is the number with cuffs or radios was not even that high.
The fact the journalists who wrote this dangerous crap, and the editors who approved it, have NOT even apologised let alone been fired (as would undoubtedly happen in the UK) should be a lesson to all those who snipe at UK media while presuming the EU press is saintly and judicious.
This fake news will cost many lives, it has not cost the fake newscasters even a moment of embarrassment.
As I have said before, German media is particularly craven, and corrupt, according to Brits I know who work in Berlin for these pitiful organisations.
Another little reported factoid, the EMA took a 2 week holiday over Christmas.... delaying approvals.
Don't we get the link to Guido/Soaraway Sun!
I have no idea what you are talking about....source for this Dr John Campbell.
He can brook no criticism of anything with the word "Europe" in it?
Can we see the link? Otherwise this Euro-bashing is descending into the usual suspects doing their daily slavering which isn't edifying (unless it's felix of course).
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
QTWAIN.
Its still all about supply. There's many tens of millions eager for their first dose, and well over ten million eager for their second.
No matter how hard Toby and the Lockdown Sceptics try to stoke up antivax sentiments. He’s got a catchy song today, to push the claim that mRNA vaccines rewrite your genes and make you a different person. Here’s where someone will pop up and say he doesn’t believe this and he’s just doing it to continue getting donations. What a contemptible worm he is.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Is there any particular reason this is regarded as such a bad idea? I mean we have a tunnel from England to France...
I think it's a super idea myself, though this is the first time I've seen the Manx Interchange plan. Seems a bit of a weird one, as you have to go well out of your way to get from Scotland to NI and vice versa (though I assume it must still be quicker than the ferry).
The water between NI and Scotland is full of munitions. This route doesn't seem to be.
Though I'm curious why Stanraer for Scotland. I'd have thought a more Eastern point in Scotland would have made more sense given the IOM middle point - but I'm not too au fait with Scottish geography or if there's a good reason for it to be Stanraer.
Looking at a map of Scotland I'd have thought somewhere like Kirkcudbright on the way to Dumfries and still on the A75 would make more sense?
There are muntions to the NW of the IoM. Luce Bay on the "Stranraer Route" was a military practice range for years. The routes going east to England go through the oil and gas fields...
I did remind Philip of Johnson's record with water crossings yesterday. He countered by explaining that the £63m invisible Garden Bridge over the Thames was an excellent idea scuppered by a reckless Khan.
So Beverly you should be looking to blame the future administration that inevitably pulls the plug on this demonstration of Johnson's foresight and ambition.
I never said it was an excellent idea, I simply said it was cancelled by Khan.
Many new administrations cancel their predecessors projects that haven't begun yet - doesn't mean the predecessors projects were a bad idea.
If you want to argue it was bad do so on its own merits, the fact its "invisible" isn't one, since it wasn't him who made it that.
If Johnson is in charge as I hope and expect until 2027/2028 then if these tunnels are approved then the tunnelling should be well underway by then. If the tunnelling isn't underway yet then so be it if its cancelled.
Governments have been talking about new runways for Heathrow for over fifty years haven't they? Its not just Johnson that has form in this arena.
Is there any particular reason this is regarded as such a bad idea? I mean we have a tunnel from England to France...
I think it's a super idea myself, though this is the first time I've seen the Manx Interchange plan. Seems a bit of a weird one, as you have to go well out of your way to get from Scotland to NI and vice versa (though I assume it must still be quicker than the ferry).
The water between NI and Scotland is full of munitions. This route doesn't seem to be.
Though I'm curious why Stanraer for Scotland. I'd have thought a more Eastern point in Scotland would have made more sense given the IOM middle point - but I'm not too au fait with Scottish geography or if there's a good reason for it to be Stanraer.
Looking at a map of Scotland I'd have thought somewhere like Kirkcudbright on the way to Dumfries and still on the A75 would make more sense?
There are muntions to the NW of the IoM. Luce Bay on the "Stranraer Route" was a military practice range for years. The routes going east to England go through the oil and gas fields...
I did remind Philip of Johnson's record with water crossings yesterday. He countered by explaining that the £63m invisible Garden Bridge over the Thames was an excellent idea scuppered by a reckless Khan.
So Beverly you should be looking to blame the future administration that inevitably pulls the plug on this demonstration of Johnson's foresight and ambition.
I think we should let Boris install some stepping stones to Magna Carta Island at Runnymede. That would keep him out of the way.
Just been invited to an Online Gaudy for my old college. Can't imagine anything less gaudy-like than another bloody Zoom...
I'm going to wait a few years before my next one when they can be in person again. I'm cautiously optimistic that the OU Society East Kent Garden Party will be able to happen in July.
Indeed. Why it hasn't been converted into a summer garden party I'm not quite sure...
I do fear there is going to be an institutional slowness to lots of things which ought to return to normal very quickly.
Someone this morning mentioned masks 'till spring 2022' - I just don't see why they're justified when the entire population has been offered a jab?
Since the beginning of this I have been mentally prepared for a two year outbreak. I think that face coverings will be very much a "thing" next winter whatever happens as the population starts to recover from the PTSD induced by all of this.
Another little reported factoid, the EMA took a 2 week holiday over Christmas.... delaying approvals.
Don't we get the link to Guido/Soaraway Sun!
Is this true? Very tempting to tickle EuroDave with it.
I not sure I can be bothered to go through 2 weeks worth of Dr John Campbell videos to find the relevant bit, but he had a segment about it, with the exact dates the EMA offices was closed down over the Christmas / New Year period.
It says on their website that they worked through.
I don't have a particular interest in this, but on the evidence presented, there is no legal action (merely a letter from a firm of solicitors that asks for actions to be taken and leaves the door open to legal action if those actions are not taken).
Bollocks.
A letter from lawyers was sent demanding actions and demanding payment of £2,500. That's legal action.
It may not be courts, but getting lawyers to demand £2,500 off someone is legal action. What else would you call it? An invoice for services rendered?
Personally I would call it bullying. And those holding elected office should not do it. Period.
Simple ambiguity. Action in ordinary English means any deed, movement etc, 'action' to lawyers some of the time means a legal step involving a court. (Often, curiously, following a 'letter before action' beginning: Dear Sir, We act for....) which nicely embraces the ambiguity.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
QTWAIN.
Its still all about supply. There's many tens of millions eager for their first dose, and well over ten million eager for their second.
No matter how hard Toby and the Lockdown Sceptics try to stoke up antivax sentiments. He’s got a catchy song today, to push the claim that mRNA vaccines rewrite your genes and make you a different person. Here’s where someone will pop up and say he doesn’t believe this and he’s just doing it to continue getting donations. What a contemptible worm he is.
Some of these people are getting very close to meeting the “Shouting ‘FIRE’ in a crowded theatre” test.
Just been invited to an Online Gaudy for my old college. Can't imagine anything less gaudy-like than another bloody Zoom...
I'm going to wait a few years before my next one when they can be in person again. I'm cautiously optimistic that the OU Society East Kent Garden Party will be able to happen in July.
Indeed. Why it hasn't been converted into a summer garden party I'm not quite sure...
I do fear there is going to be an institutional slowness to lots of things which ought to return to normal very quickly.
Someone this morning mentioned masks 'till spring 2022' - I just don't see why they're justified when the entire population has been offered a jab?
Since the beginning of this I have been mentally prepared for a two year outbreak. I think that face coverings will be very much a "thing" next winter whatever happens as the population starts to recover from the PTSD induced by all of this.
I'm sure some will wear them.
However, as a shopkeeper, I want the law around them gone as soon as possible.
Another little reported factoid, the EMA took a 2 week holiday over Christmas.... delaying approvals.
Don't we get the link to Guido/Soaraway Sun!
Is this true? Very tempting to tickle EuroDave with it.
I not sure I can be bothered to go through 2 weeks worth of Dr John Campbell videos to find the relevant bit, but he had a segment about it, with the exact dates the EMA offices was closed down over the Christmas / New Year period.
It says on their website that they worked through.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
QTWAIN.
Its still all about supply. There's many tens of millions eager for their first dose, and well over ten million eager for their second.
No matter how hard Toby and the Lockdown Sceptics try to stoke up antivax sentiments. He’s got a catchy song today, to push the claim that mRNA vaccines rewrite your genes and make you a different person. Here’s where someone will pop up and say he doesn’t believe this and he’s just doing it to continue getting donations. What a contemptible worm he is.
Any opponent of lockdown would be very silly to get caught up with anti vaxxers. The two are very different issues with very different arguments. Apart from the anti-vaxxers. Who have no arguments.
Is there any particular reason this is regarded as such a bad idea? I mean we have a tunnel from England to France...
I think it's a super idea myself, though this is the first time I've seen the Manx Interchange plan. Seems a bit of a weird one, as you have to go well out of your way to get from Scotland to NI and vice versa (though I assume it must still be quicker than the ferry).
The water between NI and Scotland is full of munitions. This route doesn't seem to be.
Though I'm curious why Stanraer for Scotland. I'd have thought a more Eastern point in Scotland would have made more sense given the IOM middle point - but I'm not too au fait with Scottish geography or if there's a good reason for it to be Stanraer.
Looking at a map of Scotland I'd have thought somewhere like Kirkcudbright on the way to Dumfries and still on the A75 would make more sense?
There are muntions to the NW of the IoM. Luce Bay on the "Stranraer Route" was a military practice range for years. The routes going east to England go through the oil and gas fields...
I did remind Philip of Johnson's record with water crossings yesterday. He countered by explaining that the £63m invisible Garden Bridge over the Thames was an excellent idea scuppered by a reckless Khan.
So Beverly you should be looking to blame the future administration that inevitably pulls the plug on this demonstration of Johnson's foresight and ambition.
I never said it was an excellent idea, I simply said it was cancelled by Khan.
Many new administrations cancel their predecessors projects that haven't begun yet - doesn't mean the predecessors projects were a bad idea.
If you want to argue it was bad do so on its own merits, the fact its "invisible" isn't one, since it wasn't him who made it that.
If Johnson is in charge as I hope and expect until 2027/2028 then if these tunnels are approved then the tunnelling should be well underway by then. If the tunnelling isn't underway yet then so be it if its cancelled.
Governments have been talking about new runways for Heathrow for over fifty years haven't they? Its not just Johnson that has form in this arena.
Best keep Johnson off Heathrow expansion too.
Wasn't he prepared to die on the runway to reject the plan? Needless to say he took the relatively safer option of a visit to Afghanistan on the day of the vote.
P.S. Tunnelling should be well underway by 2027/28? LOL
Because that data is historical, relatively meaningless and notoriously inaccurate.
The UK is actually counting deaths and testing for them properly. Most other countries are underreporting, some quite dramatically.
So why would you be posting that? Its the vaccines that matter. They're the route out, they're the "endgame", they're the way to prevent future deaths.
Excess deaths is also a shitshow though
Counting those wrong like March 8th is 3 weeks after mid April
Excess deaths is wrong? How?
That literally shows who is alive and who is dead. It shows fewer excess deaths than total deaths in the UK which makes sense, while almost every other nation is the other way around. So your "per million" chart is meaningless garbage and you know it.
What matters, the only thing that matters really now, is vaccinations.
Deaths don't matter
At least you are honest
On a long enough time line I'm afraid to inform you that the mortality rate for all humans is 100%.
Context gets lost in this debate. Covid is not the be all and end all.
Over 600k Brits die every single year normally.
The overwhelming majority of Care Home residents die within 12 months of entering the Care Home.
There will be more Care Home residents that have died of natural causes having lost all contact with their families in the final months of their life than there will be who have died from Covid.
There will be over half a million elderly people who've died of natural causes (and millions more who do not have much longer naturally left) who've essentially lost a very valuable year of life.
There's tragedies all around us in this mess and the idea that its possible to halt death is preposterous nonsense. The only thing that's possible to do is halt the pandemic - and that's vaccines. Vaccines matter more than everything else combined.
Any chance you might stop saying "and that's vaccines"?
Why should he? It is absolutely on point.
It's tiresome and is compromising the aethsetics of the site.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
Just to say my wife and I have been invited by our local rainbow hospital to have our second Pfizer dose on the 7th March, six weeks after our first
Many congratulations to Mark Drakeford, (yes I really did say that) but of course non of the first ministers could have done this without Boris pre committing to buying vaccines and the wonderful role out organised by Nadhim Zahawi
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
Perhaps the roundabout under the Isle of Man would be a perfect location for the customs and standards checkpoints required to move stuff through these tunnels. The IoM government could make a killing in offering to run them as an impartial 3rd party. And have big duty free stores as well.
Also no speed limit so it would be a great drift spot. *welds up diff*
I once attempted to drift a Morris Marina estate on a motorway exit cloverleaf. Can't recommend it, as I ended up sideswiping a lamppost on the verge.
Another little reported factoid, the EMA took a 2 week holiday over Christmas.... delaying approvals.
Don't we get the link to Guido/Soaraway Sun!
Is this true? Very tempting to tickle EuroDave with it.
I not sure I can be bothered to go through 2 weeks worth of Dr John Campbell videos to find the relevant bit, but he had a segment about it, with the exact dates the EMA offices was closed down over the Christmas / New Year period.
It says on their website that they worked through.
No doubt at reduced effectiveness. Why is such an important regulator ever closed?
Clearly flat out, that's why they managed to approve the AZN vaccine so quickly...the erhhhhh 29th Jan. Its like the offices were closed and we are definitely "working from home" wasn't exactly a priority.
In the UK, MHRA approved it 30th Dec....so clearly were working flat out over the Christmas period.
The 2 biggest screwups of this pandemic by our government are moving people into care homes and allowing unrestricted international travel for most of the last 14 months. Both undoubtedly caused thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of unnecessary deaths.
On the first I would say this. This decision was made at the time that we were seeking to set up the Nightingale hospitals, where the media were full of pictures of the disaster in northern Italy and the many, many unnecessary deaths suffered there because their health system was overwhelmed. The expectation of the government at the time was that the NHS would be similarly overwhelmed in early course. I think SAGE and other advisors from the NHS were seriously close to panic, and rightly so.
In that environment some pretty tough decisions were made. A lot of hospital beds were filled with what we have traditionally called bed blockers, people who didn't really need to be in hospital but were because our care system is crap and a suitable plan had not been put together. I suspect instructions were given to move these people out whether they had a full care plan or not so that the beds were available for those for whom they might do more good. So they were punted to care homes with minimal plans and, critically, no checks as to whether they had themselves been infected.
As it turns out the Nightingale hospitals were barely used, although the NHS was stretched severely it did not fall over and things did not turn out as bad as had entirely reasonably been feared. That makes the decision to move people out to care homes where inadequately trained and provisioned staff failed to prevent the spread of the disease amongst many of our most vulnerable look very wrong. And it was wrong, but only in hindsight.
I am not saying this is right, I simply say that there is a plausible explanation for what happened and that explanation is consistent with the same thing happening in England, Scotland, Wales and NI, apparently independently. I think it is possible that this decision might be justifiable at the time it was made.
Our policies on air travel throughout the pandemic, however, I simply find beyond rational explanation.
Good post. Not to say that it would have changed things - perhaps it wouldn't have - but its attempt to "keep the UK open", and thereby continue with international air travel, might have been a (large?) factor in the government going all in and early on the vaccines.
Hmm, from reading what's available the original vaccine drive started in around February with a group of UK biotech companies getting together independently to support the development of the Oxford vaccine. I'm not sure how much of a factor air travel was. I think the government has always seen vaccines as the endgame state so would have done it regardless.
What's interesting is that the UK suffers from almost no vaccine hesitancy and that is in part due to the horrific death rates over the last year and the government linking unlockdown to vaccination. In a perverse way the high death toll may end up meaning a much faster and higher take up of vaccines by the general public. In SK there is much higher vaccine hesitancy, a lot of that is surely because they've not had the alternative of people dying in their thousands and hospitals being overwhelmed leading to indefinite lockdowns.
I think there might be some truth in that. I'm certainly surprised by the prevalence of vaccine hesitancy in most of the Germans I know around here in Cologne.
But also look at the past record of vaccination - the UK normally vaccinates more than twice as many over 65s against flu as Germany does. And contributed far more to GAVI than other European countries already 10 years ago, so there's a whole bunch of factors probably.
While the EU vaccine procurement scheme has been crap, it doesn't seem to have been significantly worse than other continental western European countries (ie Switzerland and Norway). And not everything is seen through the lens of Brexit on the continent (I think it's probably true to say that nothing is except Brexit itself, which has barely made the news at all for about 3 years and was over a long time ago so far as most people are concerned), unlike on PB.com. In my entirely anecdotal experience, people are more likely to compare the slow vaccine rollout in Germany with the speed of Israel than with the UK.
Just been invited to an Online Gaudy for my old college. Can't imagine anything less gaudy-like than another bloody Zoom...
Sigh, I'm with you sir. Zoom/Teams etc etc – just sick to the eye-teeth of them.
A few of my colleagues are saying this marks the end of in-person conferences, and everything will now be online. Can't see that happening myself
It won’t be the end of conferences, but it is certainly going to reduce the number of trans-continental one-day meetings that used to be held in person.
Because that data is historical, relatively meaningless and notoriously inaccurate.
The UK is actually counting deaths and testing for them properly. Most other countries are underreporting, some quite dramatically.
So why would you be posting that? Its the vaccines that matter. They're the route out, they're the "endgame", they're the way to prevent future deaths.
Excess deaths is also a shitshow though
Counting those wrong like March 8th is 3 weeks after mid April
Excess deaths is wrong? How?
That literally shows who is alive and who is dead. It shows fewer excess deaths than total deaths in the UK which makes sense, while almost every other nation is the other way around. So your "per million" chart is meaningless garbage and you know it.
What matters, the only thing that matters really now, is vaccinations.
Deaths don't matter
At least you are honest
On a long enough time line I'm afraid to inform you that the mortality rate for all humans is 100%.
Context gets lost in this debate. Covid is not the be all and end all.
Over 600k Brits die every single year normally.
The overwhelming majority of Care Home residents die within 12 months of entering the Care Home.
There will be more Care Home residents that have died of natural causes having lost all contact with their families in the final months of their life than there will be who have died from Covid.
There will be over half a million elderly people who've died of natural causes (and millions more who do not have much longer naturally left) who've essentially lost a very valuable year of life.
There's tragedies all around us in this mess and the idea that its possible to halt death is preposterous nonsense. The only thing that's possible to do is halt the pandemic - and that's vaccines. Vaccines matter more than everything else combined.
Any chance you might stop saying "and that's vaccines"?
QTWAIN.
Not until people like @bigjohnowls stop downplaying vaccines and try to big up other metrics instead.
Oh, I see. It's a retaliation play, is it? Well I think he has stopped now, so let's have an end to it.
I still haven't found what I'm looking for btw. In the archive. The work goes on.
Rog will be along to tell us it is all Paul Staines or Sun's fault, or something.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
Rog will be along to tell us it is all Paul Staines or Sun's fault, or something.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
Just been invited to an Online Gaudy for my old college. Can't imagine anything less gaudy-like than another bloody Zoom...
I'm going to wait a few years before my next one when they can be in person again. I'm cautiously optimistic that the OU Society East Kent Garden Party will be able to happen in July.
Indeed. Why it hasn't been converted into a summer garden party I'm not quite sure...
I do fear there is going to be an institutional slowness to lots of things which ought to return to normal very quickly.
Someone this morning mentioned masks 'till spring 2022' - I just don't see why they're justified when the entire population has been offered a jab?
Since the beginning of this I have been mentally prepared for a two year outbreak. I think that face coverings will be very much a "thing" next winter whatever happens as the population starts to recover from the PTSD induced by all of this.
I'm sure some will wear them.
However, as a shopkeeper, I want the law around them gone as soon as possible.
Indeed, one will not stop people wearing them voluntarily. A few people used to wear them on the tube in London well before this all kicked off. Weird to that I always found it haunting and dystopian!
Imagine complaining incessantly about covid and lockdown and then turning down the one thing that can make them go away. Christ...
I'm not sure we know their views on covid and lockdown. They could be worried about side effects or something.
My comment was intended to be general. Although I imagine @contrarian would also refuse the vaccine if offered. Happy for him to correct me though.
OK, it seemed as though you were referring to contrarian's family members, who (as far as I know) don't post here, so we don't know what their views are.
Because Germany has completely fucked up the publicity around the Oxford-AZ vaccine, by smearing it as useless, via absurdly fake news stories sourced from embarrassed politicians, they are now having to do an official news campaign to persuade Germans that, no, honestly, it is really safe and effective, after all.
And, of course, that tweet is answered by about a thousand Germans saying: No, Astra Zeneca is rubbish, we read it in Handelsblatt, I'm not having that crap, Macron said it doesn't work.... and so on and so forth.
I mean, if this was Boris and the UK Government....
Another little reported factoid, the EMA took a 2 week holiday over Christmas.... delaying approvals.
It can't be difficult. You've got Robert Thompson and felix on the job. The European Medicines agency closed for two weeks at Christmas thereby delaying approvals.
After you've found it you can sell it to Guido and the SUN and the Mail. Get your fingers out!!
The 2 biggest screwups of this pandemic by our government are moving people into care homes and allowing unrestricted international travel for most of the last 14 months. Both undoubtedly caused thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of unnecessary deaths.
On the first I would say this. This decision was made at the time that we were seeking to set up the Nightingale hospitals, where the media were full of pictures of the disaster in northern Italy and the many, many unnecessary deaths suffered there because their health system was overwhelmed. The expectation of the government at the time was that the NHS would be similarly overwhelmed in early course. I think SAGE and other advisors from the NHS were seriously close to panic, and rightly so.
In that environment some pretty tough decisions were made. A lot of hospital beds were filled with what we have traditionally called bed blockers, people who didn't really need to be in hospital but were because our care system is crap and a suitable plan had not been put together. I suspect instructions were given to move these people out whether they had a full care plan or not so that the beds were available for those for whom they might do more good. So they were punted to care homes with minimal plans and, critically, no checks as to whether they had themselves been infected.
As it turns out the Nightingale hospitals were barely used, although the NHS was stretched severely it did not fall over and things did not turn out as bad as had entirely reasonably been feared. That makes the decision to move people out to care homes where inadequately trained and provisioned staff failed to prevent the spread of the disease amongst many of our most vulnerable look very wrong. And it was wrong, but only in hindsight.
I am not saying this is right, I simply say that there is a plausible explanation for what happened and that explanation is consistent with the same thing happening in England, Scotland, Wales and NI, apparently independently. I think it is possible that this decision might be justifiable at the time it was made.
Our policies on air travel throughout the pandemic, however, I simply find beyond rational explanation.
Plus: Slow lockdown. Shambolic test and trace. Christmas pantomime. January schools fiasco.
France, Germany, Greece, Poland, Czechia to name but a few places in Europe where COVID cases rising again., with Italy unable to squash it, stubborn high level for weeks.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
Rog will be along to tell us it is all Paul Staines or Sun's fault, or something.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
No, everyone knows Oxford's a complete dump.
You have mentioned this viewpoint in the past. You also mentioned in the Autumn that you were concerned average Joe Brit would turn down Pfizer for the "English One". Something a bit like that has happened...
Imagine complaining incessantly about covid and lockdown and then turning down the one thing that can make them go away. Christ...
I'm not sure we know their views on covid and lockdown. They could be worried about side effects or something.
My comment was intended to be general. Although I imagine @contrarian would also refuse the vaccine if offered. Happy for him to correct me though.
OK, it seemed as though you were referring to contrarian's family members, who (as far as I know) don't post here, so we don't know what their views are.
They don;'t but I am probably the moderate in all this.
Lets just say Bill Gates is not on wifey's christmas card list.
Rog will be along to tell us it is all Paul Staines or Sun's fault, or something.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
No, everyone knows Oxford's a complete dump.
Feel free to post the efficacy data for the Cambridge vaccine at any time...
Imagine complaining incessantly about covid and lockdown and then turning down the one thing that can make them go away. Christ...
I'm not sure we know their views on covid and lockdown. They could be worried about side effects or something.
My comment was intended to be general. Although I imagine @contrarian would also refuse the vaccine if offered. Happy for him to correct me though.
OK, it seemed as though you were referring to contrarian's family members, who (as far as I know) don't post here, so we don't know what their views are.
They don;'t but I am probably the moderate in all this.
Lets just say Bill Gates is not on wifey's christmas card list.
He probably should be.
The amount he's invested into vaccine deployment etc around the third world probably means he's done more than anyone else in preventing the need for future lockdowns.
That's what really puzzles me about people like you. Anyone genuinely opposed to lockdowns should be most in favour of vaccines.
Perhaps the roundabout under the Isle of Man would be a perfect location for the customs and standards checkpoints required to move stuff through these tunnels. The IoM government could make a killing in offering to run them as an impartial 3rd party. And have big duty free stores as well.
Also no speed limit so it would be a great drift spot. *welds up diff*
I once attempted to drift a Morris Marina estate on a motorway exit cloverleaf. Can't recommend it, as I ended up sideswiping a lamppost on the verge.
(Statute of limitations long since expired.)
Good effort. Even the 1.8 O series motor wouldn't pull the cock off a chocolare mouse.
France, Germany, Greece, Poland, Czechia to name but a few places in Europe where COVID cases rising again., with Italy unable to squash it, stubborn high level for weeks.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
I'm hoping the dramatic change in the weather here in Germany over the last week (for the better) might buy us a little time
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
Then blame them if there's any future lockdowns. Own it.
Rog will be along to tell us it is all Paul Staines or Sun's fault, or something.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
No, everyone knows Oxford's a complete dump.
You have mentioned this viewpoint in the past. You also mentioned in the Autumn that you were concerned average Joe Brit would turn down Pfizer for the "English One". Something a bit like that has happened...
My father has vaccinated a few hundred people in the last week, people are very interested the vaccine they are getting but mostly curious to when they are getting their second jab.
But those who have raised objections are the ones who have heard bad things about the AZN one thanks to Macron and the Germans.
WhatsApp, Facebook, and Twitter are a menace during a pandemic.
The 2 biggest screwups of this pandemic by our government are moving people into care homes and allowing unrestricted international travel for most of the last 14 months. Both undoubtedly caused thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of unnecessary deaths.
On the first I would say this. This decision was made at the time that we were seeking to set up the Nightingale hospitals, where the media were full of pictures of the disaster in northern Italy and the many, many unnecessary deaths suffered there because their health system was overwhelmed. The expectation of the government at the time was that the NHS would be similarly overwhelmed in early course. I think SAGE and other advisors from the NHS were seriously close to panic, and rightly so.
In that environment some pretty tough decisions were made. A lot of hospital beds were filled with what we have traditionally called bed blockers, people who didn't really need to be in hospital but were because our care system is crap and a suitable plan had not been put together. I suspect instructions were given to move these people out whether they had a full care plan or not so that the beds were available for those for whom they might do more good. So they were punted to care homes with minimal plans and, critically, no checks as to whether they had themselves been infected.
As it turns out the Nightingale hospitals were barely used, although the NHS was stretched severely it did not fall over and things did not turn out as bad as had entirely reasonably been feared. That makes the decision to move people out to care homes where inadequately trained and provisioned staff failed to prevent the spread of the disease amongst many of our most vulnerable look very wrong. And it was wrong, but only in hindsight.
I am not saying this is right, I simply say that there is a plausible explanation for what happened and that explanation is consistent with the same thing happening in England, Scotland, Wales and NI, apparently independently. I think it is possible that this decision might be justifiable at the time it was made.
Our policies on air travel throughout the pandemic, however, I simply find beyond rational explanation.
Good post. Not to say that it would have changed things - perhaps it wouldn't have - but its attempt to "keep the UK open", and thereby continue with international air travel, might have been a (large?) factor in the government going all in and early on the vaccines.
Hmm, from reading what's available the original vaccine drive started in around February with a group of UK biotech companies getting together independently to support the development of the Oxford vaccine. I'm not sure how much of a factor air travel was. I think the government has always seen vaccines as the endgame state so would have done it regardless.
What's interesting is that the UK suffers from almost no vaccine hesitancy and that is in part due to the horrific death rates over the last year and the government linking unlockdown to vaccination. In a perverse way the high death toll may end up meaning a much faster and higher take up of vaccines by the general public. In SK there is much higher vaccine hesitancy, a lot of that is surely because they've not had the alternative of people dying in their thousands and hospitals being overwhelmed leading to indefinite lockdowns.
I think there might be some truth in that. I'm certainly surprised by the prevalence of vaccine hesitancy in most of the Germans I know around here in Cologne.
But also look at the past record of vaccination - the UK normally vaccinates more than twice as many over 65s against flu as Germany does. And contributed far more to GAVI than other European countries already 10 years ago, so there's a whole bunch of factors probably.
While the EU vaccine procurement scheme has been crap, it doesn't seem to have been significantly worse than other continental western European countries (ie Switzerland and Norway). And not everything is seen through the lens of Brexit on the continent (I think it's probably true to say that nothing is except Brexit itself, which has barely made the news at all for about 3 years and was over a long time ago so far as most people are concerned), unlike on PB.com. In my entirely anecdotal experience, people are more likely to compare the slow vaccine rollout in Germany with the speed of Israel than with the UK.
Which is an odd one because Germany's second wave has been pretty horrific and I thought the lockdown had just been extended as well. One would hope that people see vaccines as the way out of this, lockdowns aren't an end state. I have to say the German media has had a really poor time of it on the AZ vaccine, it could lead to a prolonged lockdown because people are stupidly not taking it despite it being a really great vaccine. I really, really hope that the UK data coming out over the next few days will convince people to just get it done.
Rog will be along to tell us it is all Paul Staines or Sun's fault, or something.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
No, everyone knows Oxford's a complete dump.
You have mentioned this viewpoint in the past. You also mentioned in the Autumn that you were concerned average Joe Brit would turn down Pfizer for the "English One". Something a bit like that has happened...
My father has vaccinated a few hundred people in the last week, people are very interested the vaccine they are getting but mostly curious to when they are getting their second jab.
But those who have raised objections are the ones who have heard bad things about the AZN one thanks to Macron and the Germans.
WhatsApp, Facebook, and Twitter are a menace during a pandemic.
Good on your father for volunteering to help out.
By the way, there’s three superfluous words at the very end of your post.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
Charles Walker MP on WATO. "You can't have a timeline and be data driven." Difficult to argue with that. If not with much of the other stuff he argues.
Imagine complaining incessantly about covid and lockdown and then turning down the one thing that can make them go away. Christ...
I'm not sure we know their views on covid and lockdown. They could be worried about side effects or something.
My comment was intended to be general. Although I imagine @contrarian would also refuse the vaccine if offered. Happy for him to correct me though.
OK, it seemed as though you were referring to contrarian's family members, who (as far as I know) don't post here, so we don't know what their views are.
They don;'t but I am probably the moderate in all this.
Lets just say Bill Gates is not on wifey's christmas card list.
He probably should be.
The amount he's invested into vaccine deployment etc around the third world probably means he's done more than anyone else in preventing the need for future lockdowns.
That's what really puzzles me about people like you. Anyone genuinely opposed to lockdowns should be most in favour of vaccines.
France, Germany, Greece, Poland, Czechia to name but a few places in Europe where COVID cases rising again., with Italy unable to squash it, stubborn high level for weeks.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
Why do you insist on calling it Cockney Covid? If you are referring to the UK variant, it's from Kentish provenance, not the East End of London.
France, Germany, Greece, Poland, Czechia to name but a few places in Europe where COVID cases rising again., with Italy unable to squash it, stubborn high level for weeks.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
France, Germany, Greece, Poland, Czechia to name but a few places in Europe where COVID cases rising again., with Italy unable to squash it, stubborn high level for weeks.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
Why do you insist on calling it Cockney Covid? If you are referring to the UK variant, it's from Kentish provenance, not the East End of London.
Yes - the people who have put themselves in charge of our lives have decided that they need to stay in charge because the vaccine is ONLY 90% effective. It's total lunacy. If a 63% drop on hospital admissions and massive reduction in spread amongst the vaccine hold out mongs was genuinely not enough, then it would become pretty clear that the lesser civil liberty restriction would be compulstory vaccination rather than compulsory house arrest. Either way you absolutely can vaccinate your way out of this and it is terrifying that people in charge are claiming otherwise.
That seems like a very low number in terms of total vaccinations. Run out of supply?
Is it possible that the government is starting to run out of road in terms of the number of people who really, really want a vaccine?
Lol. Not a chance. My part of the world is mostly through the nine priority groups and is starting to make jabs available on a more or less free-for-all basis - my sister-in-law (teacher, in her 30s) has a booking in for this week, and is much relieved at not having to go back to school with no protection.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Its funny because my wife and daughter have both been offered one twice and turned them down.
Then blame them if there's any future lockdowns. Own it.
Better still, with so many people on here to take a pop at, why not not take a pop at someone's family.
They are civilians and should be left out of such discussions and yes I know @contrarian did bring them up in the first place.
France, Germany, Greece, Poland, Czechia to name but a few places in Europe where COVID cases rising again., with Italy unable to squash it, stubborn high level for weeks.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
Why do you insist on calling it Cockney Covid? If you are referring to the UK variant, it's from Kentish provenance, not the East End of London.
Its the South, its all the same to me....
We need to build a wall round the South, although I'll accept a wall around Essex.
Perhaps the roundabout under the Isle of Man would be a perfect location for the customs and standards checkpoints required to move stuff through these tunnels. The IoM government could make a killing in offering to run them as an impartial 3rd party. And have big duty free stores as well.
Also no speed limit so it would be a great drift spot. *welds up diff*
I once attempted to drift a Morris Marina estate on a motorway exit cloverleaf. Can't recommend it, as I ended up sideswiping a lamppost on the verge.
(Statute of limitations long since expired.)
Good effort. Even the 1.8 O series motor wouldn't pull the cock off a chocolare mouse.
Off Topic
Even you wouldn't feel safe with more than 20BHP on Morris Minor cart springs. The first car I drove was my Father's 1.8 Marina, my first company car was a 1.7 Ital Estate. Both were in Sandglow, and both were terrible. I have driven a 1.2 Chevette, which was inexplicably even worse.
Well, not permanently. They'll get some protection (less protection and in a much less safe and more unpleasant way) when they get infected.
Assuming that vaccination does not get us to herd immunity, of course, which is a big if. Even the idiots will be pretty safe, in time, if it does. And more importantly, those who legitimately cannot have a vaccination will too, but we'll get there sooner if there are fewer idiots.
Sorry but once everyone is vaccinated this is over.
Yes ~10% of those vaccinated may die, that's sad, but everyone dies eventually. We'll have done our best to protect them.
As for the refuseniks? Fuck them. If they die, they die. Their fault.
We don't have lockdowns to prevent smokers from getting cancer. Anyone who can't be arsed to get vaccinated and catches it once the vaccine is freely available is their own damned fool fault.
Imagine complaining incessantly about covid and lockdown and then turning down the one thing that can make them go away. Christ...
I'm not sure we know their views on covid and lockdown. They could be worried about side effects or something.
My comment was intended to be general. Although I imagine @contrarian would also refuse the vaccine if offered. Happy for him to correct me though.
OK, it seemed as though you were referring to contrarian's family members, who (as far as I know) don't post here, so we don't know what their views are.
They don;'t but I am probably the moderate in all this.
Lets just say Bill Gates is not on wifey's christmas card list.
He probably should be.
The amount he's invested into vaccine deployment etc around the third world probably means he's done more than anyone else in preventing the need for future lockdowns.
That's what really puzzles me about people like you. Anyone genuinely opposed to lockdowns should be most in favour of vaccines.
Something something hidden magic microchips?
Other than mRNA vaccines, the other big technology win out of this pandemic will be the big strides in undetectable but trackable low power chip technology
The young like to travel. When they realise this won't happen unless they get the jab - no trips to Ibiza, no sunny holidays in Greece, no weekends in Paris or stag parties in Prague - no chance to go anywhere abroad AT ALL - they will get accept the needle.
I reckon permanent refuseniks will be about 10% of the population, in the end. And, eventually, Darwin will sort them out.
Comments
What's interesting is that the UK suffers from almost no vaccine hesitancy and that is in part due to the horrific death rates over the last year and the government linking unlockdown to vaccination. In a perverse way the high death toll may end up meaning a much faster and higher take up of vaccines by the general public. In SK there is much higher vaccine hesitancy, a lot of that is surely because they've not had the alternative of people dying in their thousands and hospitals being overwhelmed leading to indefinite lockdowns.
I do fear there is going to be an institutional slowness to lots of things which ought to return to normal very quickly.
Someone this morning mentioned masks 'till spring 2022' - I just don't see why they're justified when the entire population has been offered a jab?
https://twitter.com/Gordon_Pasha/status/1363832527476183047?s=20
Its still all about supply. There's many tens of millions eager for their first dose, and well over ten million eager for their second.
Lots of donors and party members I speak to are concerned that the reopening looks too slow....
So @Beibheirli_C you should be looking to blame the future administration that inevitably pulls the plug on this demonstration of Johnson's foresight and ambition.
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n414?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=hootsuite&utm_content=sme&utm_campaign=usage
The fact the journalists who wrote this dangerous crap, and the editors who approved it, have NOT even apologised let alone been fired (as would undoubtedly happen in the UK) should be a lesson to all those who snipe at UK media while presuming the EU press is saintly and judicious.
This fake news will cost many lives, it has not cost the fake newscasters even a moment of embarrassment.
As I have said before, German media is particularly craven, and corrupt, according to Brits I know who work in Berlin for these pitiful organisations.
He’s got a catchy song today, to push the claim that mRNA vaccines rewrite your genes and make you a different person.
Here’s where someone will pop up and say he doesn’t believe this and he’s just doing it to continue getting donations. What a contemptible worm he is.
I'd get one tomorrow if I could; so would my wife (and we are now actively looking).
Many new administrations cancel their predecessors projects that haven't begun yet - doesn't mean the predecessors projects were a bad idea.
If you want to argue it was bad do so on its own merits, the fact its "invisible" isn't one, since it wasn't him who made it that.
If Johnson is in charge as I hope and expect until 2027/2028 then if these tunnels are approved then the tunnelling should be well underway by then. If the tunnelling isn't underway yet then so be it if its cancelled.
Governments have been talking about new runways for Heathrow for over fifty years haven't they? Its not just Johnson that has form in this arena.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-working-covid-19-brexit-over-holiday-period
However, as a shopkeeper, I want the law around them gone as soon as possible.
https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1363838964264820737
Wasn't he prepared to die on the runway to reject the plan? Needless to say he took the relatively safer option of a visit to Afghanistan on the day of the vote.
P.S. Tunnelling should be well underway by 2027/28? LOL
Sigh, I'm with you sir. Zoom/Teams etc etc – just sick to the eye-teeth of them.
Many congratulations to Mark Drakeford, (yes I really did say that) but of course non of the first ministers could have done this without Boris pre committing to buying vaccines and the wonderful role out organised by Nadhim Zahawi
And labour are still rubbish in Wales
Can't recommend it, as I ended up sideswiping a lamppost on the verge.
(Statute of limitations long since expired.)
In the UK, MHRA approved it 30th Dec....so clearly were working flat out over the Christmas period.
But also look at the past record of vaccination - the UK normally vaccinates more than twice as many over 65s against flu as Germany does. And contributed far more to GAVI than other European countries already 10 years ago, so there's a whole bunch of factors probably.
While the EU vaccine procurement scheme has been crap, it doesn't seem to have been significantly worse than other continental western European countries (ie Switzerland and Norway). And not everything is seen through the lens of Brexit on the continent (I think it's probably true to say that nothing is except Brexit itself, which has barely made the news at all for about 3 years and was over a long time ago so far as most people are concerned), unlike on PB.com. In my entirely anecdotal experience, people are more likely to compare the slow vaccine rollout in Germany with the speed of Israel than with the UK.
https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1363757346653151232?s=20
I still haven't found what I'm looking for btw. In the archive. The work goes on.
The vaccine procurement and smear stories, it is even bigger balls up than opening up for summer holidays or failure of many EU countries to properly lockdown for 2nd wave, believing they had this COVID lark cracked after doing ok in the first wave.
and
Why is it funny?
https://twitter.com/RegSprecher/status/1363775632149258241?s=20
And, of course, that tweet is answered by about a thousand Germans saying: No, Astra Zeneca is rubbish, we read it in Handelsblatt, I'm not having that crap, Macron said it doesn't work.... and so on and so forth.
I mean, if this was Boris and the UK Government....
After you've found it you can sell it to Guido and the SUN and the Mail. Get your fingers out!!
Slow lockdown.
Shambolic test and trace.
Christmas pantomime.
January schools fiasco.
Can Boris get it right at the 3rd attempt? Or is it that Cockney COVID is just too contagious?
Lets just say Bill Gates is not on wifey's christmas card list.
The amount he's invested into vaccine deployment etc around the third world probably means he's done more than anyone else in preventing the need for future lockdowns.
That's what really puzzles me about people like you. Anyone genuinely opposed to lockdowns should be most in favour of vaccines.
Shout out to the 'no one wants this to go on forever crew'
They might not explicitly will the end, but they certainly will the means.
But those who have raised objections are the ones who have heard bad things about the AZN one thanks to Macron and the Germans.
WhatsApp, Facebook, and Twitter are a menace during a pandemic.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1363835815055482886
By the way, there’s three superfluous words at the very end of your post.
"You can't have a timeline and be data driven."
Difficult to argue with that.
If not with much of the other stuff he argues.
They are civilians and should be left out of such discussions and yes I know @contrarian did bring them up in the first place.
https://www.essex.gov.uk/news/residents-and-workers-in-cm13-area-of-brentwood-advised-to-get-tested
Even you wouldn't feel safe with more than 20BHP on Morris Minor cart springs. The first car I drove was my Father's 1.8 Marina, my first company car was a 1.7 Ital Estate. Both were in Sandglow, and both were terrible. I have driven a 1.2 Chevette, which was inexplicably even worse.
Assuming that vaccination does not get us to herd immunity, of course, which is a big if. Even the idiots will be pretty safe, in time, if it does. And more importantly, those who legitimately cannot have a vaccination will too, but we'll get there sooner if there are fewer idiots.
Yes ~10% of those vaccinated may die, that's sad, but everyone dies eventually. We'll have done our best to protect them.
As for the refuseniks? Fuck them. If they die, they die. Their fault.
We don't have lockdowns to prevent smokers from getting cancer. Anyone who can't be arsed to get vaccinated and catches it once the vaccine is freely available is their own damned fool fault.
He was replying to himself in response to this: are 30% really going to refuse the vaccine?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1363835815055482886?s=20
I reckon permanent refuseniks will be about 10% of the population, in the end. And, eventually, Darwin will sort them out.
The Six Nations game isn't going to happen, is it?