I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.
But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.
I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.
Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
Assuming J&J is positive next week, and both they and Novavax are approved by the end of February, then yes, a million jabs a day will be more than achievable.
Now, I have no doubt that we'll all be getting "South African Modified" booster shots in the late Summer or Autumn, but at a million shots a day, and only one needed for J&J, pretty much everyone will be protected by the end of April.
Which will have been an extraordinary achievement.
We're not going to be done that quick.
However, barring any major resistance calamities, an end to bloody lockdowns is finally in sight. It's been good the last few days to finally feel some confidence and have some degree of expectation that the future won't be totally shit.
I do hope that confidence doesn't transpire to be misplaced.
Won't we? There are 50 million or so adults in the UK. We're vaccinating at 400,000 doses a day right now, which means it would take 225 days (or so) to get everyone fully protected at the current rate.
Except, of course, that (1) even a single dose has a big impact on people getting CV19, (2) you don't need to have everyone vaccinated to cut cases down dramatically (as transmission drops), and (3) lots of people have already had Covid.
But let's play with this. Let's assume we do 400,000 doses a day until the end of February, which is about 30 days away. 30 x 400,000 = 12 million plus the 7.7 million doses already administered. Now, some people will have gotten two and some people will have only gotten one. But still... that's a lot of people with some protection.
Then let's add in a further 300,000 J&J a day, and 300,000 Novavax. That takes us to one million a day. But J&J counts double, of course. So, really, it's like we're doing 1.3 million doses a day.
I'd say that the next 61 days of us doing those doses, combined with the weather warming, and the fact that a lot of people have already had CV19 will put us in a pretty good state by the end of April. Indeed, I'd be willing to bet that cases will be back down below 1,000/day and deaths and hospitalisations will be increasingly rare.
That's a bullish schedule, mostly because the European deliveries of J&J aren't supposed to commence until late in April and that supply is split between the UK and EU.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Careful, because imagine that the situation was reversed and we had no vaccines and vaccines for the EU were being manufactured in the UK. In that circumstance, the "nationalistic warrior approach" would be say "fuck it" to the EU and take some of their doses.
And I can also bet that Farage would be the first on the telly saying that we must do what is right for the people of the UK, and that is stopping the export of these vaccines to Europe.
How does Sputnik to compare to all these other ones btw?
Gamelaya is going to release proper trial results very soon, apparently.
Interestingly, despite having their own vaccine and everything, Russia is behind the EU in terms of actually getting it into peoples' arms.
Russia is an upper middle income country (poorer in per capita GDP terms than every EU state except Bulgaria,) with a clapped out healthcare system. It's unsurprising that it's a bit of a slowcoach.
True: but 30,000 shots a day is nothing - it's less than Romania is doing. How can they even think about exporting if they aren't able to produce it in volume for their domestic markets.
To use it for diplomatic leverage.
I'm sure that important Russians are getting the jabs. Do you think that Putin cares if the rank and file citizenry, especially the poor, get jabbed? Why would he? They're expendable.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.
But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.
I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.
Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
Assuming J&J is positive next week, and both they and Novavax are approved by the end of February, then yes, a million jabs a day will be more than achievable.
Now, I have no doubt that we'll all be getting "South African Modified" booster shots in the late Summer or Autumn, but at a million shots a day, and only one needed for J&J, pretty much everyone will be protected by the end of April.
Which will have been an extraordinary achievement.
We're not going to be done that quick.
However, barring any major resistance calamities, an end to bloody lockdowns is finally in sight. It's been good the last few days to finally feel some confidence and have some degree of expectation that the future won't be totally shit.
I do hope that confidence doesn't transpire to be misplaced.
Won't we? There are 50 million or so adults in the UK. We're vaccinating at 400,000 doses a day right now, which means it would take 225 days (or so) to get everyone fully protected at the current rate.
Except, of course, that (1) even a single dose has a big impact on people getting CV19, (2) you don't need to have everyone vaccinated to cut cases down dramatically (as transmission drops), and (3) lots of people have already had Covid.
But let's play with this. Let's assume we do 400,000 doses a day until the end of February, which is about 30 days away. 30 x 400,000 = 12 million plus the 7.7 million doses already administered. Now, some people will have gotten two and some people will have only gotten one. But still... that's a lot of people with some protection.
Then let's add in a further 300,000 J&J a day, and 300,000 Novavax. That takes us to one million a day. But J&J counts double, of course. So, really, it's like we're doing 1.3 million doses a day.
I'd say that the next 61 days of us doing those doses, combined with the weather warming, and the fact that a lot of people have already had CV19 will put us in a pretty good state by the end of April. Indeed, I'd be willing to bet that cases will be back down below 1,000/day and deaths and hospitalisations will be increasingly rare.
That's a bullish schedule, mostly because the European deliveries of J&J aren't supposed to commence until late in April and that supply is split between the UK and EU.
Sure, but I'll also bet you that production of Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca continues to increase on my time horizon too.
I haven't mentioned how impressed I've been by some of my natural political opponents here over the past few years, some of the strongest and most consistent opponents of Brexit over the last 5 years, who have come out and sincerely criticised the EU for their behaviour of the last few days. It's been clear those who haven't been prepared to do that, and they still hold the remainiac badges. I'm very sorry to those to whom I gave that label and have proved me wrong with their good sense.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.
But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.
I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.
Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
Assuming J&J is positive next week, and both they and Novavax are approved by the end of February, then yes, a million jabs a day will be more than achievable.
Now, I have no doubt that we'll all be getting "South African Modified" booster shots in the late Summer or Autumn, but at a million shots a day, and only one needed for J&J, pretty much everyone will be protected by the end of April.
Which will have been an extraordinary achievement.
We're not going to be done that quick.
However, barring any major resistance calamities, an end to bloody lockdowns is finally in sight. It's been good the last few days to finally feel some confidence and have some degree of expectation that the future won't be totally shit.
I do hope that confidence doesn't transpire to be misplaced.
Won't we? There are 50 million or so adults in the UK. We're vaccinating at 400,000 doses a day right now, which means it would take 225 days (or so) to get everyone fully protected at the current rate.
Except, of course, that (1) even a single dose has a big impact on people getting CV19, (2) you don't need to have everyone vaccinated to cut cases down dramatically (as transmission drops), and (3) lots of people have already had Covid.
But let's play with this. Let's assume we do 400,000 doses a day until the end of February, which is about 30 days away. 30 x 400,000 = 12 million plus the 7.7 million doses already administered. Now, some people will have gotten two and some people will have only gotten one. But still... that's a lot of people with some protection.
Then let's add in a further 300,000 J&J a day, and 300,000 Novavax. That takes us to one million a day. But J&J counts double, of course. So, really, it's like we're doing 1.3 million doses a day.
I'd say that the next 61 days of us doing those doses, combined with the weather warming, and the fact that a lot of people have already had CV19 will put us in a pretty good state by the end of April. Indeed, I'd be willing to bet that cases will be back down below 1,000/day and deaths and hospitalisations will be increasingly rare.
Hmmmm... there's an awful lot of ifs and optimistic assumptions in that schedule. But if you turn out to be right then that would be fantastic, needless to say.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
No it is not!
Having more generation of vaccine doses is what is best for ending this pandemic NOT "global needs".
If the globe is getting a tiny number of doses per week this will never be tackled, it doesn't matter what "need" priority regime you give out.
Its as was said by Max before - if the UK gets 5 million doses per week then everyone is vaccinated in 10 weeks. Double-dosing, everyone is done in 20 weeks. And those 5 million doses per week continue to be generated and go to the rest of the world.
If there's only 500k per week distributed around the world based on "need" instead of ten times that prioritised here then distributed we'll never get anywhere.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.
But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.
I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.
Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
Assuming J&J is positive next week, and both they and Novavax are approved by the end of February, then yes, a million jabs a day will be more than achievable.
Now, I have no doubt that we'll all be getting "South African Modified" booster shots in the late Summer or Autumn, but at a million shots a day, and only one needed for J&J, pretty much everyone will be protected by the end of April.
Which will have been an extraordinary achievement.
We're not going to be done that quick.
However, barring any major resistance calamities, an end to bloody lockdowns is finally in sight. It's been good the last few days to finally feel some confidence and have some degree of expectation that the future won't be totally shit.
I do hope that confidence doesn't transpire to be misplaced.
Won't we? There are 50 million or so adults in the UK. We're vaccinating at 400,000 doses a day right now, which means it would take 225 days (or so) to get everyone fully protected at the current rate.
Except, of course, that (1) even a single dose has a big impact on people getting CV19, (2) you don't need to have everyone vaccinated to cut cases down dramatically (as transmission drops), and (3) lots of people have already had Covid.
But let's play with this. Let's assume we do 400,000 doses a day until the end of February, which is about 30 days away. 30 x 400,000 = 12 million plus the 7.7 million doses already administered. Now, some people will have gotten two and some people will have only gotten one. But still... that's a lot of people with some protection.
Then let's add in a further 300,000 J&J a day, and 300,000 Novavax. That takes us to one million a day. But J&J counts double, of course. So, really, it's like we're doing 1.3 million doses a day.
I'd say that the next 61 days of us doing those doses, combined with the weather warming, and the fact that a lot of people have already had CV19 will put us in a pretty good state by the end of April. Indeed, I'd be willing to bet that cases will be back down below 1,000/day and deaths and hospitalisations will be increasingly rare.
That's a bullish schedule, mostly because the European deliveries of J&J aren't supposed to commence until late in April and that supply is split between the UK and EU.
Sure, but I'll also bet you that production of Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca continues to increase on my time horizon too.
Yeah from what our research says AZ are looking to hit 2.5m doses per week this quarter and then double that to 5m doses per week in the second quarter. One of the things that will slow us down is the 12 week maximum efficacy gap for AZ, it means people who get it towards the end of March will be waiting until July to get immunity at 95% against infection. If we start getting serious deliveries from Novavax in March I wouldn't be surprised if we did allow for AZ to redirect some doses to fulfil their EU contract.
I know people have slagged off EOTHO repeatedly for being a disease driver, but in truth it would be no surprise if it didn't make a significant contribution to spreading the Plague. Restaurants (when we were still actually allowed to visit them) had tough Covid secure measures in place, and the Summer was a period of very low transmission.
Whether you'd get away with opening up hospitality right now is an entirely different matter - but we're not going to find out, of course.
I wouldn't pay any attention to this article unless you can get hold of the data. At least one academic study has shown a positive correlation between EOTHO uptake and increased infections.
A Sun article about the Treasury marking its own homework, with no sources is AT BEST worthless. At worst, it's the kind of journalism that puts people in danger. The sort that people on here have rightly been very quick to condemn in recent days.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
My question to you will be an actual situation within a few weeks.
Your question to me will not be.
Both questions were asinine. Difference is I know mine was.
So you will be getting vaccinated.
Its up to others to make the sacrifice on behalf of the world's vulnerable.
I know people have slagged off EOTHO repeatedly for being a disease driver, but in truth it would be no surprise if it didn't make a significant contribution to spreading the Plague. Restaurants (when we were still actually allowed to visit them) had tough Covid secure measures in place, and the Summer was a period of very low transmission.
Whether you'd get away with opening up hospitality right now is an entirely different matter - but we're not going to find out, of course.
It was fine as a scheme, the problem was being too slow closing down in Oct-Dec not the opening up in July.
He does seem to be getting some prominent press lately. I know his 'institute' has published stuff in relation to Covid, but it's still interesting - I feel like he hasn't been this notable since he retired as PM, apart from in the nightmares of Corbynistas.
Novavax’s smaller trial [in South Africa] found the vaccine to have a 49.4 percent efficacy overall. (The company reported that about 6 percent of the trial’s participants were positive for H.I.V., and for those who were not H.I.V. positive, the vaccine had a 60 percent efficacy.)
I can't make the Maths work on that. If the vaccine is 60% effective for 94% of the participants and 49.4% effective overall, then the implied effectiveness for the remaining 6% of participants is -117%
Did trial participants with HIV catch Covid more than twice as often when given the vaccine instead of the placebo?
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Careful, because imagine that the situation was reversed and we had no vaccines and vaccines for the EU were being manufactured in the UK. In that circumstance, the "nationalistic warrior approach" would be say "fuck it" to the EU and take some of their doses.
And I can also bet that Farage would be the first on the telly saying that we must do what is right for the people of the UK, and that is stopping the export of these vaccines to Europe.
I'm not talking about expropriating other nations stocks, of course not. I'm talking about getting the chequebook out and paying for your own nations supplies.
It is to their shame that the EU have paid 1/7th of the amount we have - and America have - for developing vaccines.
The UK has put about the same into vaccine development and Covax as the entire European Union combined it seems.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
Is there anyone else who needs chinese burns to convince them that we need to vaccinate the whole UK before we start working really fucking hard on vaccinating the world?
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
Are that many people actually arguing against the need to vaccinate the world, and for the UK to help that happen?
Seems like the argument is about what 'minimal deviation' means and therefore at what point that would be reasonable.
Yes. And above my pay grade obviously. TBH it's more the tone of so many that has triggered me. But there is a serious point here. This global pandemic will not be best solved by nation states competing to vaccinate their own populations.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
Rumour has it she's picking her new country seat for her upcoming dukedom.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
My question to you will be an actual situation within a few weeks.
Your question to me will not be.
Both questions were asinine. Difference is I know mine was.
So you will be getting vaccinated.
Its up to others to make the sacrifice on behalf of the world's vulnerable.
You are a plonker sometimes, Richard.
Sometimes ?
Vaccine sacrifice is like extra taxes and covid restrictions.
Okay for others to do but something we would prefer to do ourselves only on a theoretical rather than actual basis.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
We've done well, but weren't we late on Moderna, not ordering any until after they published their results (and so not yet receiving any deliveries)?
It's the early orders, made far enough in advance that the funding helped to accelerate development and expand production capacity, that deserve the credit.
Poor Kinabalu - who I had previously respected as a top poster despite the fact that he and I are opposed on virtually everything - has completely shredded his reputation as a sensible poster on here tonight.
Such a pity when Remoaners demonstrate their complete hatred for Britain!
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
My question to you will be an actual situation within a few weeks.
Your question to me will not be.
Both questions were asinine. Difference is I know mine was.
So you will be getting vaccinated.
Its up to others to make the sacrifice on behalf of the world's vulnerable.
You are a plonker sometimes, Richard.
Sometimes ?
Vaccine sacrifice is like extra taxes and covid restrictions.
Okay for others to do but something we would prefer to do ourselves only on a theoretical rather than actual basis.
It seems williamglenn and others can understand the EU have really screwed up here but @kinabalu is still in denial and thinks this is chest thumping or little englanderism. Doesn't get it at all.
Maybe I can rephrase it in a way that will get through to you kinabalu:
The UK responded to the vaccine program with investment. The EU have responded to vaccine program with austerity.
In this instance investment worked, austerity did not.
Does that make you understand what is going on yet? Or are you still going to think this is about nationalism?
I know people have slagged off EOTHO repeatedly for being a disease driver, but in truth it would be no surprise if it didn't make a significant contribution to spreading the Plague. Restaurants (when we were still actually allowed to visit them) had tough Covid secure measures in place, and the Summer was a period of very low transmission.
Whether you'd get away with opening up hospitality right now is an entirely different matter - but we're not going to find out, of course.
I wouldn't pay any attention to this article unless you can get hold of the data. At least one academic study has shown a positive correlation between EOTHO uptake and increased infections.
A Sun article about the Treasury marking its own homework, with no sources is AT BEST worthless. At worst, it's the kind of journalism that puts people in danger. The sort that people on here have rightly been very quick to condemn in recent days.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
The attempts to smear her on here earlier last year were extremely disappointing. I know emotions were and still are running high, it was no excuse to try and drag her name through the mud for absolutely no reason at all.
The whole team deserve to be listed for honours as well as all of the scientists at the Jenner institute and Pascal Soriot who's company agreed to supply the world at no profit.
It's been a genuinely stellar effort from everyone involved here and in the US.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
The attempts to smear her on here earlier last year were extremely disappointing. I know emotions were and still are running high, it was no excuse to try and drag her name through the mud for absolutely no reason at all.
The whole team deserve to be listed for honours as well as all of the scientists at the Jenner institute and Pascal Soriot who's company agreed to supply the world at no profit.
It's been a genuinely stellar effort from everyone involved here and in the US.
Highest honours. A truly heroic effort that will save countless lives worldwide.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
Show your working.
It's all in my head. But it does stack up. You just have to imagine there's no countries. Normally that's Lennony airhead dreaming but this is a rare case where it works.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
We've done well, but weren't we late on Moderna, not ordering any until after they published their results (and so not yet receiving any deliveries)?
It's the early orders, made far enough in advance that the funding helped to accelerate development and expand production capacity, that deserve the credit.
Yes, we were, but I think it was reasonable that we went for Pfizer instead. They are very similar indeed, so buying both wasn't really adding much probability of success, but Pfizer had the better early trial results. (I'm quite surprised we ordered both Janssen and AZ, for that reason. Perhaps the Janssen track record was what made them a covering bet.)
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
No sorry, just angry at his bullshit and didn't filter it because of the time.
"Busted beyond redemption" because I want rich countries on this planet to pay for vaccine development and Covax?
The only thing "busted beyond redemption" is his integrity.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
LOL! He must be mixing something with Irn-Bru methinks!
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
It's nice to have a case where the daughter of the Visitor of the PM's alma mater really was the best person for the job
This global pandemic will not be best solved by nation states competing to vaccinate their own populations.
Yes it damned well will. That is EXACTLY how it will be solved. The very last thing to do is some kind of soggy Gordon-Brown style international initiative with no country putting their all into getting their own population jabbed, bogged down in quibbles about one country refusing to cooperate with its neighbour, with politicians given a get-out-of-jail-free card because there's no incentive to do well internationally, and with meagre early supplies dissipated around the world in such small quantities that nowhere gains significant immunity and can open up again.
Of course that's not at all to say 'every man for himself'. Quite the opposite, once we've got our own population protected we can go all-out on making vaccines available to other countries, and hope that they too will be competing with each other to get their own populations protected ASAP.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
Show your working.
It's all in my head. But it does stack up. You just have to imagine there's no countries. Normally that's Lennony airhead dreaming but this is a rare case where it works.
If there were no countries then there'd only be individuals. Each man or woman for himself.
Is that what you want? Or do you just have no logic at all?
I think we've reached some irretrievable point for the EU. In the microcosm of this blog WilliamGlen, SouthamObserver, MysticRose, Anabobazinajobabobbaboyscout, RichardNabavi, even Eagles, have criticised the EU heavily in the last 72 hours. However the Beeb try to spin it for now the story will get through to a percentage of the people who care about our EU membership, and not in its favour.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
We've done well, but weren't we late on Moderna, not ordering any until after they published their results (and so not yet receiving any deliveries)?
It's the early orders, made far enough in advance that the funding helped to accelerate development and expand production capacity, that deserve the credit.
Yes, we were, but I think it was reasonable that we went for Pfizer instead. They are very similar indeed, so buying both wasn't really adding much probability of success, but Pfizer had the better early trial results. (I'm quite surprised we ordered both Janssen and AZ, for that reason. Perhaps the Janssen track record was what made them a covering bet.)
--AS
I wasn't criticising us for not ordering Moderna. Short of ordering every candidate vaccine the strategy of covering all different technologies is sound. I was merely being pedantic about counting it as a win for the strategy.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
No sorry, just angry at his bullshit and didn't filter it because of the time.
"Busted beyond redemption" because I want rich countries on this planet to pay for vaccine development and Covax?
The only thing "busted beyond redemption" is his integrity.
He's a guy on the internet who you've never met, not Jimmy Savile who fixed it for your best pal's sister when you were knee high to a grasshopper.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
And properly funding COVAX, the UK and US are funding £8 and $12 per capita vs €1 from the EU. It's a joke, even counting in all of the individual nations that only brings it up to €1.50, it's immoral for the EU to talk about it's "fair share" while they short change the world's poorest. @kinabalu doesn't want to talk about it, he can't face up to the EU shafting the poorest.
They need to be contributing far more. If they don't I'll be extremely disappointed in them. Let's see how things develop.
This global pandemic will not be best solved by nation states competing to vaccinate their own populations.
Yes it damned well will. That is EXACTLY how it will be solved. The very last thing to do is some kind of soggy Gordon-Brown style international initiative with no country putting their all into getting their own population jabbed, bogged down in quibbles about one country refusing to cooperate with its neighbour, with politicians given a get-out-of-jail-free card because there's no incentive to do well internationally, and with meagre early supplies dissipated around the world in such small quantities that nowhere gains significant immunity and can open up again.
Of course that's not at all to say 'every man for himself'. Quite the opposite, once we've got our own population protected we can go all-out on making vaccines available to other countries, and hope that they too will be competing with each other to get their own populations protected ASAP.
Yes, subsidising domestic production and then using that to vaccinate the rest of the world is the best model, it's what we've done and what the US will do as well. The EU has failed and now the more ardent EUphiles are trying to defend the indefensible and casting aspersions at the UK scheme being selfish rather than the EU trying to freeride from the UK and US investment.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
And properly funding COVAX, the UK and US are funding £8 and $12 per capita vs €1 from the EU. It's a joke, even counting in all of the individual nations that only brings it up to €1.50, it's immoral for the EU to talk about it's "fair share" while they short change the world's poorest. @kinabalu doesn't want to talk about it, he can't face up to the EU shafting the poorest.
They need to be contributing far more. If they don't I'll be extremely disappointed in them. Let's see how things develop.
Why not already? Everyone else contributed months ago.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
No sorry, just angry at his bullshit and didn't filter it because of the time.
"Busted beyond redemption" because I want rich countries on this planet to pay for vaccine development and Covax?
The only thing "busted beyond redemption" is his integrity.
He's a guy on the internet who you've never met, not Jimmy Savile who fixed it for your best pal's sister when you were knee high to a grasshopper.
Nah. Kinabalu is miles out of order here. He really has lost the plot the last few days. Something seriously wrong with his moral compass.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
Show your working.
It's all in my head. But it does stack up. You just have to imagine there's no countries. Normally that's Lennony airhead dreaming but this is a rare case where it works.
Friendly advice: step away from the keyboard for the night. Come back in the cool light of day.
I know people have slagged off EOTHO repeatedly for being a disease driver, but in truth it would be no surprise if it didn't make a significant contribution to spreading the Plague. Restaurants (when we were still actually allowed to visit them) had tough Covid secure measures in place, and the Summer was a period of very low transmission.
Whether you'd get away with opening up hospitality right now is an entirely different matter - but we're not going to find out, of course.
It was fine as a scheme, the problem was being too slow closing down in Oct-Dec not the opening up in July.
The second "lockdown lite" stands out for me. Too late, too lax, and ended too early.
Poor Kinabalu - who I had previously respected as a top poster despite the fact that he and I are opposed on virtually everything - has completely shredded his reputation as a sensible poster on here tonight.
Such a pity when Remoaners demonstrate their complete hatred for Britain!
Seems a bit harsh. I'm more on the side of it being reasonable to get a long way through our own programme before getting into how we can help others use our oversupply, but his heart seems to be in the right place and most people seem on board with the fundamental aim of helping, just not on the path to getting there.
Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.
From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.
That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.
On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).
When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.
The issues I have with this situation are:
(a) Naked shorting is illegal (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse
No body comes out of this well.
Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.
I've not been following this in detail, but I note that the business is a video games outfit. Are the legion of retail investors piling in mostly speculators hoping for a windfall, or game players rallying round their business? I know we can't really know for sure, but what sort of groups are pushing it?
They are Reddit posters investing to move the price because it’s “fun”
Brian Rose* is back as your humble Dumbosaurus predicted earlier, ladies and gentlemen. Lay here and get back on the Rose train!
*Or the totally unconnected, extremely wise and independent backer who keeps throwing money at him on Betfair because they think he's genuinely an 11/1 chance...
Is there actually any reason for the Scottish government wanting to publish the numbers against the wishes of the UK government? Not publishing them due to commercial sensitivities seems completely reasonable.
I think we've reached some irretrievable point for the EU. In the microcosm of this blog WilliamGlen, SouthamObserver, MysticRose, Anabobazinajobabobbaboyscout, RichardNabavi, even Eagles, have criticised the EU heavily in the last 72 hours. However the Beeb try to spin it for now the story will get through to a percentage of the people who care about our EU membership, and not in its favour.
They've still got kinabalu in their corner. He's batting away in a way that would impress even Geoffrey Boycott.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
No sorry, just angry at his bullshit and didn't filter it because of the time.
"Busted beyond redemption" because I want rich countries on this planet to pay for vaccine development and Covax?
The only thing "busted beyond redemption" is his integrity.
He's a guy on the internet who you've never met, not Jimmy Savile who fixed it for your best pal's sister when you were knee high to a grasshopper.
Nah. Kinabalu is miles out of order here. He really has lost the plot the last few days. Something seriously wrong with his moral compass.
Nevertheless still a guy on the internet who you've never met.
Brian Rose* is back as your humble Dumbosaurus predicted earlier, ladies and gentlemen. Lay here and get back on the Rose train!
*Or the totally unconnected, extremely wise and independent backer who keeps throwing money at him on Betfair because they think he's genuinely an 11/1 chance...
Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.
From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.
That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.
On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).
When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.
The issues I have with this situation are:
(a) Naked shorting is illegal (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse
No body comes out of this well.
Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.
I've not been following this in detail, but I note that the business is a video games outfit. Are the legion of retail investors piling in mostly speculators hoping for a windfall, or game players rallying round their business? I know we can't really know for sure, but what sort of groups are pushing it?
They are Reddit posters investing to move the price because it’s “fun”
I see the price has crashed from 500+ and ~200...somebody will have been left holding a sack of shit.
I think we've reached some irretrievable point for the EU. In the microcosm of this blog WilliamGlen, SouthamObserver, MysticRose, Anabobazinajobabobbaboyscout, RichardNabavi, even Eagles, have criticised the EU heavily in the last 72 hours. However the Beeb try to spin it for now the story will get through to a percentage of the people who care about our EU membership, and not in its favour.
They've still got kinabalu in their corner. He's batting away in a way that would impress even Geoffrey Boycott.
Foxy also likes to lend his authority to anything anti what we're doing. I've always found his attitude weird and depressing.
I think we've reached some irretrievable point for the EU. In the microcosm of this blog WilliamGlen, SouthamObserver, MysticRose, Anabobazinajobabobbaboyscout, RichardNabavi, even Eagles, have criticised the EU heavily in the last 72 hours. However the Beeb try to spin it for now the story will get through to a percentage of the people who care about our EU membership, and not in its favour.
Add me to the list of those thinking the EU's failure over vaccines and petulant behaviour are unacceptable.
I am particularly angry about it because it means family members and friends are being put at risk unnecessarily.
Well when there are shortages, we just won't be able to send as much to Scotland....
Ridiculous even as a joke. Even when provoked, if seen that way, responses would be proportionate and not self defeating, such as punishing a part of our own country.
Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.
From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.
That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.
On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).
When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.
The issues I have with this situation are:
(a) Naked shorting is illegal (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse
No body comes out of this well.
Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.
I've not been following this in detail, but I note that the business is a video games outfit. Are the legion of retail investors piling in mostly speculators hoping for a windfall, or game players rallying round their business? I know we can't really know for sure, but what sort of groups are pushing it?
They are Reddit posters investing to move the price because it’s “fun”
Ah, this is clearly some new meaning the word "investing" that I was previously unaware of.
Well when there are shortages, we just won't be able to send as much to Scotland....
Ridiculous even as a joke. Even when provoked, if seen that way, responses would be proportionate and not self defeating, such as punishing a part of our own country.
We only ever do that unintentionally.
That isn't what I meant....It is just a fact that if there are shortages, Scotland will get less, just like every other country / area of the UK.
Nah. Cambridge Union. Which even my posh friends thought was odd.
Serious question - isn't the point of these debates to win 'the debate' and not necessarily to be right in what you are supporting. When we did debates at school the teachers would often find out first what our views were on a subject and then specifically get us to debate in favour of the other side. It was about being convincing through your debating skills, not about being right about the underlying issue. Is that not the case n these Oxford and Cambridge debates?
I never knew such a thing existed. Sounds a nasty experience for Jezza from this thug.
Sadly he probably got a lot of experiences close to it, if not quite as much as that. Though remarkably it was supposedly nothing to do with who he was
“I don’t know him,” Dore, 56, told Westminster magistrates court. “I didn’t dislike him, he was just in my way and I was trying to get home.”
Well when there are shortages, we just won't be able to send as much to Scotland....
Ridiculous even as a joke. Even when provoked, if seen that way, responses would be proportionate and not self defeating, such as punishing a part of our own country.
We only ever do that unintentionally.
That isn't what I meant....It is just a fact that if there are shortages, Scotland will get less, just like every other country / area of the UK.
I'm very much enjoying the spectacle of everyone piling onto one poster for saying things that offend their moral sensibilities.
A few days ago we had actual real life antisemitism being spewed on here, and one person, one, spoke up against it.
It's informative to know where people draw their lines.
I'm not sure how long you've on here but some of us on here went to town against anti-antisemitism in the Corbyn days and we've got the scars to prove it...
I think we've reached some irretrievable point for the EU. In the microcosm of this blog WilliamGlen, SouthamObserver, MysticRose, Anabobazinajobabobbaboyscout, RichardNabavi, even Eagles, have criticised the EU heavily in the last 72 hours. However the Beeb try to spin it for now the story will get through to a percentage of the people who care about our EU membership, and not in its favour.
They've still got kinabalu in their corner. He's batting away in a way that would impress even Geoffrey Boycott.
Foxy also likes to lend his authority to anything anti what we're doing. I've always found his attitude weird and depressing.
And Nick Palmer too. I've always highly valued his input here due to his experience and openness, but his refusal to even vaguely criticise Handelsblatt for their antivax sensationalism was utterly inexucasble.
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
And properly funding COVAX, the UK and US are funding £8 and $12 per capita vs €1 from the EU. It's a joke, even counting in all of the individual nations that only brings it up to €1.50, it's immoral for the EU to talk about it's "fair share" while they short change the world's poorest. @kinabalu doesn't want to talk about it, he can't face up to the EU shafting the poorest.
They need to be contributing far more. If they don't I'll be extremely disappointed in them. Let's see how things develop.
Is that it, extremely disappointed. They've had months to do it and they had a limited time where the UK was matching £1 for every $4 donated but chose not to take advantage of that either. It's an absolute scandal IMO that the world's second richest set of nations is refusing to pay it's "fair share" to help the world's poor.
Equitable access to vaccines starts with properly funding COVAX. Biden is stepping up with $4bn. Ursula has committed €500m. Trump did $0, Ursula's contribution is almost on the level of Donald. She's shafting the poorest and talking about Europe's fair share.
Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.
From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.
That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.
On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).
When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.
The issues I have with this situation are:
(a) Naked shorting is illegal (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse
No body comes out of this well.
Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.
I've not been following this in detail, but I note that the business is a video games outfit. Are the legion of retail investors piling in mostly speculators hoping for a windfall, or game players rallying round their business? I know we can't really know for sure, but what sort of groups are pushing it?
They are Reddit posters investing to move the price because it’s “fun”
Ah, this is clearly some new meaning the word "investing" that I was previously unaware of.
When a group has a slogan "we can be retarded longer than they can be solvent" then investment rules may not be their number one priority.
Fuck yes! Another vaccine, UK manufactured, integrated UK supply chain, should start getting supplies in a few weeks.
This is finally happening.
Another Kate Bingham bullseye. The gal done good. She went for eight (GSK/Sanofi, Novavax , Valneva, Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
We've done well, but weren't we late on Moderna, not ordering any until after they published their results (and so not yet receiving any deliveries)?
It's the early orders, made far enough in advance that the funding helped to accelerate development and expand production capacity, that deserve the credit.
Yes, we were, but I think it was reasonable that we went for Pfizer instead. They are very similar indeed, so buying both wasn't really adding much probability of success, but Pfizer had the better early trial results. (I'm quite surprised we ordered both Janssen and AZ, for that reason. Perhaps the Janssen track record was what made them a covering bet.)
--AS
CureVac, Pfizer and Moderna are all incredibly similar mRNA vaccines, with almost identical Phase 1/2 results, that all work in the same way.
(CureVac, which the EU backed, is about three to four months behind the others, having started Phase 3 in December rather than August/September.)
I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots
I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.
A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.
Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.
If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?
Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
Every single word of this drips with pure unadulterated little englander europhobia. And you pretend to have voted Leave because of the "democratic deficit".
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
Bullshit. Learn to fucking read.
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
I know you drink a *LOT* of coffee but do you drink alcohol as well? Like a few on here you seem to get a bit more lairy and sweary as the night wears on.
No sorry, just angry at his bullshit and didn't filter it because of the time.
"Busted beyond redemption" because I want rich countries on this planet to pay for vaccine development and Covax?
The only thing "busted beyond redemption" is his integrity.
He's a guy on the internet who you've never met, not Jimmy Savile who fixed it for your best pal's sister when you were knee high to a grasshopper.
Nah. Kinabalu is miles out of order here. He really has lost the plot the last few days. Something seriously wrong with his moral compass.
It's not that bad. It's only your typical displacement activity to avoid facing up to his disappointment in the EU, and the embarrassment he no doubt feels as a result.
This results in the sort of whataboutery that we see constantly.
What really annoys me with the EU on this is the dishonesty. The failure to admit to past mistakes. The desperate attempt to shift the blame.
It's the sort of behaviour I associate with Tories.
Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.
From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.
That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.
On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).
When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.
The issues I have with this situation are:
(a) Naked shorting is illegal (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse
No body comes out of this well.
Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.
I've not been following this in detail, but I note that the business is a video games outfit. Are the legion of retail investors piling in mostly speculators hoping for a windfall, or game players rallying round their business? I know we can't really know for sure, but what sort of groups are pushing it?
They are Reddit posters investing to move the price because it’s “fun”
Entirely the wrong sort to be manipulating the markets.
“ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “
Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?
Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.
Keep your religion in your church please.
I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
Show your working.
It's all in my head. But it does stack up. You just have to imagine there's no countries. Normally that's Lennony airhead dreaming but this is a rare case where it works.
Friendly advice: step away from the keyboard for the night. Come back in the cool light of day.
But I might lose my thread. Can't risk that. All will lose out.
I'm very much enjoying the spectacle of everyone piling onto one poster for saying things that offend their moral sensibilities.
A few days ago we had actual real life antisemitism being spewed on here, and one person, one, spoke up against it.
It's informative to know where people draw their lines.
Wasn't Leon praising the Israeli government for doing whatever was necessary to protect Israeli citizens from this virus? Including paying over the odds for vaccines. Which is what the British government is currently being praised for. Not quite sure why you say this amounts to anti-semitism.
But perhaps I've missed what you are complaining about.
Personally, I like the variety of views and dislike any sort of bullying of people who are outside the consensus.
Well when there are shortages, we just won't be able to send as much to Scotland....
Ridiculous even as a joke. Even when provoked, if seen that way, responses would be proportionate and not self defeating, such as punishing a part of our own country.
We only ever do that unintentionally.
That isn't what I meant....It is just a fact that if there are shortages, Scotland will get less, just like every other country / area of the UK.
Yeah right, at least have the balls to own your 'humour'. Though I can see the rsi Cartman stuff may give you pause on that thing.
Comments
And I can also bet that Farage would be the first on the telly saying that we must do what is right for the people of the UK, and that is stopping the export of these vaccines to Europe.
Busted. Busted beyond redemption.
Course I knew anyway. Think most with faculties do.
The vax Wunderwaffe does its thing.
Sorry ladies, we think you should still stay home.
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1354812249110503425?s=20
Having more generation of vaccine doses is what is best for ending this pandemic NOT "global needs".
If the globe is getting a tiny number of doses per week this will never be tackled, it doesn't matter what "need" priority regime you give out.
Its as was said by Max before - if the UK gets 5 million doses per week then everyone is vaccinated in 10 weeks. Double-dosing, everyone is done in 20 weeks. And those 5 million doses per week continue to be generated and go to the rest of the world.
If there's only 500k per week distributed around the world based on "need" instead of ten times that prioritised here then distributed we'll never get anywhere.
Grow the pie is the only solution.
A Sun article about the Treasury marking its own homework, with no sources is AT BEST worthless. At worst, it's the kind of journalism that puts people in danger. The sort that people on here have rightly been very quick to condemn in recent days.
--AS
Did trial participants with HIV catch Covid more than twice as often when given the vaccine instead of the placebo?
It is to their shame that the EU have paid 1/7th of the amount we have - and America have - for developing vaccines.
The UK has put about the same into vaccine development and Covax as the entire European Union combined it seems.
Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech, Janssen and Moderna). So far just one dud (GSK/Sanofi), four confirmed or near-confirmed successes (Pfizer, Moderna, AZ, and almost certainly Novavax), one expected success (Janssen), with Valneva still to be confirmed. And what's more she's secured early UK supply for the key ones, except Moderna, and several in UK production.
Pretty damned good, however you cut it.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1354915933278642178?s=20
Currant Bun not missing out...
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1354923030322012160?s=20
I want the EU to get their chequebook out, pay for some blood vaccines and pay for Covax. That's not phobia.
Vaccine sacrifice is like extra taxes and covid restrictions.
Okay for others to do but something we would prefer to do ourselves only on a theoretical rather than actual basis.
--AS
Top story on their website right now is about Novovax efficacy and UK order, which seems like good news?
It's the early orders, made far enough in advance that the funding helped to accelerate development and expand production capacity, that deserve the credit.
Such a pity when Remoaners demonstrate their complete hatred for Britain!
Maybe I can rephrase it in a way that will get through to you kinabalu:
The UK responded to the vaccine program with investment.
The EU have responded to vaccine program with austerity.
In this instance investment worked, austerity did not.
Does that make you understand what is going on yet? Or are you still going to think this is about nationalism?
The whole team deserve to be listed for honours as well as all of the scientists at the Jenner institute and Pascal Soriot who's company agreed to supply the world at no profit.
It's been a genuinely stellar effort from everyone involved here and in the US.
--AS
"Busted beyond redemption" because I want rich countries on this planet to pay for vaccine development and Covax?
The only thing "busted beyond redemption" is his integrity.
Of course that's not at all to say 'every man for himself'. Quite the opposite, once we've got our own population protected we can go all-out on making vaccines available to other countries, and hope that they too will be competing with each other to get their own populations protected ASAP.
Is that what you want? Or do you just have no logic at all?
https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1354061749704527873
*Or the totally unconnected, extremely wise and independent backer who keeps throwing money at him on Betfair because they think he's genuinely an 11/1 chance...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/28/man-sentenced-to-community-service-for-spitting-at-jeremy-corbyn
I never knew such a thing existed. Sounds a nasty experience for Jezza from this thug.
A few days ago we had actual real life antisemitism being spewed on here, and one person, one, spoke up against it.
It's informative to know where people draw their lines.
I am particularly angry about it because it means family members and friends are being put at risk unnecessarily.
We only ever do that unintentionally.
You can tell I'm not an Oxbridge graduate.
“I don’t know him,” Dore, 56, told Westminster magistrates court. “I didn’t dislike him, he was just in my way and I was trying to get home.”
Oh well that's fine then.
It is what every rich country should have done.
Equitable access to vaccines starts with properly funding COVAX. Biden is stepping up with $4bn. Ursula has committed €500m. Trump did $0, Ursula's contribution is almost on the level of Donald. She's shafting the poorest and talking about Europe's fair share.
Time to have a think about your position on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da30jCmKaLw
Although an "And indeed Dads too" would have been much simpler and politically savvier. No need then for a PR team to rebut.
(CureVac, which the EU backed, is about three to four months behind the others, having started Phase 3 in December rather than August/September.)
This results in the sort of whataboutery that we see constantly.
What really annoys me with the EU on this is the dishonesty. The failure to admit to past mistakes. The desperate attempt to shift the blame.
It's the sort of behaviour I associate with Tories.
But perhaps I've missed what you are complaining about.
Personally, I like the variety of views and dislike any sort of bullying of people who are outside the consensus.
Though I can see the rsi Cartman stuff may give you pause on that thing.