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The big vaccine divide: The UK’s approach is politician led while the EU’s is run by its officers –

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  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    In your world do we have to wait for Germany to vax all over 65s with Pfizer before we're allowed to vax the rest of ours with AZ?
    No. Of course not.
    You said it was right for us to divert our vaccines to the EU until all their priority groups are done.

    You want us to make a special case against Germany?
    I didn't. You're being anal. I'm saying we must avoid a nationalistic "competition" approach to vaccination. We need a guiding MO of pragmatic collectivism. If everyone here is done and nobody in France - say - this is a failure. It might be their failure but so what. Their failure is everyone's. We need an internationalist approach. The point is even more obvious with poorer countries. It's not altruism. It's the only way to get out of this.
    Our government has paid seven times more per capita than the apparently wealthier and more powerful EU to get our citizens - who are still dying far faster than our ill-prepared neighbours - vaccinated first, and you want us to give it away to them?

    Pure, unadulterated remainia.
    We're at cross purposes. I'm saying something and you're hearing something else.
    I do get what you're saying. But I'm arguing that getting our economy going that bit before the rest of the EU at a 10-15% reduction overall for our all powerful neighbours' speed is a reasonable reward for our far huger investment.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    Tell that to the EU
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Floater said:

    TimT said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:
    In the 94% of the study population that did not have HIV, the efficacy was 60%. One patient on placebo developed severe Covid-19, compared with zero in the vaccine group.

    Its not 90% for cockey COVID, but it isn't total disaster stuff either.
    But in a 4,400-volunteer study in South Africa, the vaccine proved only 49% effective. In the 94% of the study population that did not have HIV, the efficacy was 60%.
    I don't think those numbers add up. 6% of 4,400 is 264. So non-HIV = 4,136 @ 60% = 2482 effective
    49% of 4,400 is just under 2,200.

    There cannot be more effective results in the subset than there is in the whole.
    Tim - I just copied from here

    https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/28/novavax-says-its-covid-19-vaccine-is-90-effective-but-far-less-so-against-one-variant/?utm_content=bufferc1fbf&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_organic

    Perhaps the full article elaborates

    Probably an artefact of the HIV/non-HIV having different percentages in the placebo group.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited January 2021

    The gov.uk press release for the Novavax announcement has dropped. Unless I'm being blind there's no indication of production/delivery schedules unfortunately, but there is at least this reassurance with regard to the trials:

    "The data published today come from more than 15,000 people who were recruited through the National Institute of Health Research vaccine registry, which was launched in July 2020 to support the UK’s efforts to deliver vaccines for COVID-19. Nearly 4,000 people in the study were over the age of 65."

    So, no repeat of the ambiguity about the olds seen with the Oxford jab.

    They probably learned their lesson with the AZ ramping in October. Better to say nothing rather than overpromise.
  • What the EU is threatening wrt AZ vaccines made in the UK, and even the threats to restrict EU made but UK paid for Pfizer, is I'm pretty sure the worst thing I've ever heard of the EU doing. They definitely don't want us back.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    RobD said:

    Floater said:

    TRUCKWATCH - on the way to fathers funeral traffic on A12 / M25 / M23 examined - lots of foreign registered trucks on the roads

    Entirely unsurprising.

    Regardless of how tight border controls become, we're always going to be at some risk of importing Plague cases because we're too dependent on road haulage for trade (even if truckers are relatively low risk, given that they spend most of the time alone in their cabs.) An important issue to be addressed when this nightmare is finally over.

    Though it won't be addressed, of course.
    Each week since the 1st January our Asda order has been complete, including fresh fruit and vegetables, and our orders are larger than pre covid as we just do not go to the supermarket

    I have not experienced any shortages, and indeed everything has been delivered from Amazon without any issues

    I have no evidence that Brexit has had any effect
    Waitrose in Cowbridge had many empty shelves last night. If it's definitely not Brexit, it must be further evidence of Drakeford's Covid mismanagement.
    Mark Drakeford has gone from Zero to Hero.

    Mark is now in second place in the Great Vaccine Race. He has overtaken first Nicola and then Arlene. He is now chasing down the Shagster.

    Next step, Mark is going to commandeer the Wrecsam vaccine plant and announce no more exports to England, until all of Wales is done.
    But other than hiding the Pfizer vaccines in his freezer so nobody could get any, Drakeford has had no hand in vaccine provision in Wales. Hats off to the NHS Nurses and RAF personnel managing the provision here in South Wales.
    It's devolved, isn't it? Or are you saying there is no political decision made regarding vaccines whatsoever in Wales?
    If Drakeford is claiming credit for the phenomenal effort carried out by hardworking NHS staff and military personnel, it just goes to show what an evil opportunistic chancer he must be.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    RobD said:

    Not such good news on its effectiveness against the South African variant.
    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1354899824370462722

    What was the effectiveness at preventing serious illness with the SA variant? If that was higher, it isn't all bad.
    One would suspect it both reduced severe illness above and beyond the absolute drop, and that it also reduced the likelihood of people spreading it.

    Irrespective, the Novavax news is excellent (especially as their vaccine is easy to administer) for the world, and which helps bring normality a little bit closer.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    RobD said:

    Floater said:

    TRUCKWATCH - on the way to fathers funeral traffic on A12 / M25 / M23 examined - lots of foreign registered trucks on the roads

    Entirely unsurprising.

    Regardless of how tight border controls become, we're always going to be at some risk of importing Plague cases because we're too dependent on road haulage for trade (even if truckers are relatively low risk, given that they spend most of the time alone in their cabs.) An important issue to be addressed when this nightmare is finally over.

    Though it won't be addressed, of course.
    Each week since the 1st January our Asda order has been complete, including fresh fruit and vegetables, and our orders are larger than pre covid as we just do not go to the supermarket

    I have not experienced any shortages, and indeed everything has been delivered from Amazon without any issues

    I have no evidence that Brexit has had any effect
    Waitrose in Cowbridge had many empty shelves last night. If it's definitely not Brexit, it must be further evidence of Drakeford's Covid mismanagement.
    Mark Drakeford has gone from Zero to Hero.

    Mark is now in second place in the Great Vaccine Race. He has overtaken first Nicola and then Arlene. He is now chasing down the Shagster.

    Next step, Mark is going to commandeer the Wrecsam vaccine plant and announce no more exports to England, until all of Wales is done.
    But other than hiding the Pfizer vaccines in his freezer so nobody could get any, Drakeford has had no hand in vaccine provision in Wales. Hats off to the NHS Nurses and RAF personnel managing the provision here in South Wales.
    It's devolved, isn't it? Or are you saying there is no political decision made regarding vaccines whatsoever in Wales?
    If Drakeford is claiming credit for the phenomenal effort carried out by hardworking NHS staff and military personnel, it just goes to show what an evil opportunistic chancer he must be.
    Channeling Big_G there, Pete!
  • Darren McCaffrey of Euro news just now again saying it is extraordinary UVDL is missing in action, and of course legal action will take years
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021

    What the EU is threatening wrt AZ vaccines made in the UK, and even the threats to restrict EU made but UK paid for Pfizer, is I'm pretty sure the worst thing I've ever heard of the EU doing. They definitely don't want us back.

    I wonder if we might start hearing noises about the European Parliament threatening to reject the trade deal... (or have they already passed it?)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291

    Euro news just now

    AZN refuse to divert UK supplies to the EU

    So will the EU now start blocking Pfizer to the UK tomorrow?
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    edited January 2021
    stodge said:


    So UK orders are:

    AZN 100m - 2 dose
    Pfizer 40m - 2 dose
    Moderna 7m - 2 dose
    Novavax 60m - 2 dose ?
    Valneva 60m - 2 dose ?
    Janssen 30m +22m - 1 dose

    All of which is extremely impressive - of that there is no doubt. We decided to bet the bank (financially) on human ingenuity and that's a bet which will always come in.

    I'm firmly convinced more and better vaccines will come along before too long.

    I'm still doubtful of the strategy behind the vaccination programme but I cannot but admire at how efficient and effective the logistics are though my anecdotal experience is there are considerable inconsistencies across the country. We need to ensure the vaccination programme is effective everywhere and is reaching all it needs to as quickly as possible - there's no point one area getting to the 40 year olds while another is struggling to finish the 70 year olds.

    It's not just about numbers but ensuring those most at risk are vaccinated as a priority.

    The efficacy figures of the later vaccines are also re-assuring though the longevity of such an immunity remains, I suppose, open to question. I suspect we'll need another full vaccination programme in the autumn though again with improvements in vaccine we may be able to go longer periods between vaccinations as time goes on.

    I'm also hugely impressed with the vaccine responses to new variants - it is a form of "arms" race (pun slightly intended) as vaccination tries to keep pace with any new mutations of the virus.
    "The Bank" = one year's EU membership fee

    Put it on a bus
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    It is worth noting that the EU has exactly no confirmed Novavax orders.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,451

    Puts tinfoil hat on....The UK government response to the temper tantrum from the EU has been remarkable calm and collected, you don't think they knew this news already? And have an idea about J&J one as well do you?

    To be fair I think we all know J and J is going to be good, just from the rumours and mood music.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,214
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    In your world do we have to wait for Germany to vax all over 65s with Pfizer before we're allowed to vax the rest of ours with AZ?
    No. Of course not.
    You said it was right for us to divert our vaccines to the EU until all their priority groups are done.

    You want us to make a special case against Germany?
    I didn't. You're being anal. I'm saying we must avoid a nationalistic "competition" approach to vaccination. We need a guiding MO of pragmatic collectivism. If everyone here is done and nobody in France - say - this is a failure. It might be their failure but so what. Their failure is everyone's. We need an internationalist approach. The point is even more obvious with poorer countries. It's not altruism. It's the only way to get out of this.
    total bollocks its not our failure if the french dont get vaccinated it is their failure and the eu failing...
    That's what I said. Their failure. But also everyone's because this is a GLOBAL pandemic. Weak links prolong it. Global cases need to be minimised otherwise there's a big risk of vaccine dodging variants which take us all back to square one.
  • rcs1000 said:

    It is worth noting that the EU has exactly no confirmed Novavax orders.

    Will that stop them?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Novavax’s smaller trial [in South Africa] found the vaccine to have a 49.4 percent efficacy overall. (The company reported that about 6 percent of the trial’s participants were positive for H.I.V., and for those who were not H.I.V. positive, the vaccine had a 60 percent efficacy.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/health/covid-vaccine-novavax-south-africa.html
  • ...through the government’s Vaccine Taskforce, the UK has secured early access to 367 million doses of 7 of the most promising vaccine candidates, including:
    - BioNTech/Pfizer – Approved - 40 million doses secured
    - Oxford/Astra Zeneca –Approved - 100 million doses secured
    - Moderna – Approved - 17 million doses secured
    - Novavax – Phase III - 60 million doses secured
    - Janssen – Phase III - 30 million doses secured
    - GSK/Sanofi – Phase I / II - 60 million doses secured
    - Valneva – Phase I / II - 60 million doses secured, with an option to acquire a further 130 million if the vaccine is proven to be safe, effective and suitable.


    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/novavax-publishes-positive-efficacy-data-for-its-covid-19-vaccine

    With Sanofi now manufacturing Pfizer instead does the UK contract with them become defunct or does it roll over to become an order for 60m extra Pfizer ?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    In your world do we have to wait for Germany to vax all over 65s with Pfizer before we're allowed to vax the rest of ours with AZ?
    No. Of course not.
    You said it was right for us to divert our vaccines to the EU until all their priority groups are done.

    You want us to make a special case against Germany?
    I didn't. You're being anal. I'm saying we must avoid a nationalistic "competition" approach to vaccination. We need a guiding MO of pragmatic collectivism. If everyone here is done and nobody in France - say - this is a failure. It might be their failure but so what. Their failure is everyone's. We need an internationalist approach. The point is even more obvious with poorer countries. It's not altruism. It's the only way to get out of this.
    total bollocks its not our failure if the french dont get vaccinated it is their failure and the eu failing...
    That's what I said. Their failure. But also everyone's because this is a GLOBAL pandemic. Weak links prolong it. Global cases need to be minimised otherwise there's a big risk of vaccine dodging variants which take us all back to square one.
    So they need to sort themselves out - there are plenty of people in this world who need the help who didn't even have the luxury of fucking it up.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rcs1000 said:

    It is worth noting that the EU has exactly no confirmed Novavax orders.

    I don't understand why they're so fucking slow at everything. If they don't buy there are 200 other possible buyers plus thousands of private companies across the US and UK that would be happy to buy for private clinic services.

    Fuck the discounts, just get on with it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Darren McCaffrey of Euro news just now again saying it is extraordinary UVDL is missing in action, and of course legal action will take years

    Not "of course;" in appropriate cases a court (an English one, anyway) will make interim orders on a shoot-from-the-hip kinda basis, where waiting for a full trial would make any remedy useless.
  • alex_ said:

    What the EU is threatening wrt AZ vaccines made in the UK, and even the threats to restrict EU made but UK paid for Pfizer, is I'm pretty sure the worst thing I've ever heard of the EU doing. They definitely don't want us back.

    I wonder if we might start hearing noises about the European Parliament threatening to reject the trade deal... (or have they already passed it?)
    I don't know. But a trade deal with these arseholes isn't looking worth its weight in paper.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    RobD said:

    Euro news just now

    AZN refuse to divert UK supplies to the EU

    Checkmate, EU commission.
    They geet their get their villain - AZ steal supplies meant for the EU, then refuse to meet their obligations to the EU because of the UK, as they are British*

    *and Swedish
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    ...through the government’s Vaccine Taskforce, the UK has secured early access to 367 million doses of 7 of the most promising vaccine candidates, including:
    - BioNTech/Pfizer – Approved - 40 million doses secured
    - Oxford/Astra Zeneca –Approved - 100 million doses secured
    - Moderna – Approved - 17 million doses secured
    - Novavax – Phase III - 60 million doses secured
    - Janssen – Phase III - 30 million doses secured
    - GSK/Sanofi – Phase I / II - 60 million doses secured
    - Valneva – Phase I / II - 60 million doses secured, with an option to acquire a further 130 million if the vaccine is proven to be safe, effective and suitable.


    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/novavax-publishes-positive-efficacy-data-for-its-covid-19-vaccine

    With Sanofi now manufacturing Pfizer instead does the UK contract with them become defunct or does it roll over to become an order for 60m extra Pfizer ?
    Doubt that we'd need it, especially given the delivery timeframe is for very late in 2021 on additional Pfizer doses. We'd be better off with Novavax as it's got really good efficacy, it's easy to reformulate and it can be stored in normal fridges at 2-4 degrees. We also have 180m production capacity per year for it onshore. It's our long term bet IMO.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,214
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    He won't no more than he will volunteer to pay extra tax even though what he believes in. All mouth no trousers
    I am NOT all mouth and no trousers. I believe in high taxes and a global needs driven vaccination rollout but I can't do it on my own obviously. All I can do is try and win hearts & minds for the causes dear to me.
  • MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It is worth noting that the EU has exactly no confirmed Novavax orders.

    I don't understand why they're so fucking slow at everything. If they don't buy there are 200 other possible buyers plus thousands of private companies across the US and UK that would be happy to buy for private clinic services.

    Fuck the discounts, just get on with it.
    It is quite stunning that such a crisis should happen just after few weeks since we left transition, and each day confirms just why leaving the EU was justified
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    How does Sputnik to compare to all these other ones btw?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,214

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
    My question to you will be an actual situation within a few weeks.

    Your question to me will not be.
    Both questions were asinine. Difference is I know mine was.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Omnium said:
    So re-join set back to what, 2080?
  • Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    alex_ said:

    What the EU is threatening wrt AZ vaccines made in the UK, and even the threats to restrict EU made but UK paid for Pfizer, is I'm pretty sure the worst thing I've ever heard of the EU doing. They definitely don't want us back.

    I wonder if we might start hearing noises about the European Parliament threatening to reject the trade deal... (or have they already passed it?)
    Apparently ratification has not yet been completed. A quick search brings up a Financial Times report from about a week ago, suggesting that the EU wanted an extension to the end of April - apparently to buy time to complete a full translation of the text into all 24 official languages.

    So I suppose shenanigans in the Parliament isn't entirely beyond question. I mean, you wouldn't expect it, but in the current climate who knows?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    I remember, oh about six weeks ago, when not reaching a Brexit deal would mean the supply of vital medicines would be under threat.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited January 2021
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
  • Does anyone else remember the Brexit deal clause that said that the EU could sequester all of the vaccines?

    I'm sure that even if I somehow managed to miss it it would have been discussed here?
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    In your world do we have to wait for Germany to vax all over 65s with Pfizer before we're allowed to vax the rest of ours with AZ?
    No. Of course not.
    You said it was right for us to divert our vaccines to the EU until all their priority groups are done.

    You want us to make a special case against Germany?
    I didn't. You're being anal. I'm saying we must avoid a nationalistic "competition" approach to vaccination. We need a guiding MO of pragmatic collectivism. If everyone here is done and nobody in France - say - this is a failure. It might be their failure but so what. Their failure is everyone's. We need an internationalist approach. The point is even more obvious with poorer countries. It's not altruism. It's the only way to get out of this.
    Our government has paid seven times more per capita than the apparently wealthier and more powerful EU to get our citizens - who are still dying far faster than our ill-prepared neighbours - vaccinated first, and you want us to give it away to them?

    Pure, unadulterated remainia.
    We're at cross purposes. I'm saying something and you're hearing something else.
    There's a shitload of that going on at the moment. People can't read past 280 characters.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    I am Baroness Buscombe, an artificial intelligence with an IQ of 6000. The same IQ as 800 members of the House of Lords.
    Hey, I understood that reference.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Treacherous certainly
  • Desmond Swayne or Desmond Swine?

    :lol:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
    About the same as the EU's, but the UK has put up far more to get the vaccine rolled out in developing nations.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Well, to be fair the SNP are a bunch of wreckers. It's kind of their raison d'etre, isn't it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
    Point me to any UK politician using the phrase "fair share" please. Oh right.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    So the trade deal is dead in the water less than a month after it was signed?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Shit that is *not* good news.

    Moderna say "very slight diminution in efficacy" against B.1.351

    https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/25/moderna-vaccine-less-effective-variant/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    kle4 said:

    How does Sputnik to compare to all these other ones btw?

    Gamelaya is going to release proper trial results very soon, apparently.

    Interestingly, despite having their own vaccine and everything, Russia is behind the EU in terms of actually getting it into peoples' arms.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.

    But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.

    I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.

    Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    glw said:

    I remember, oh about six weeks ago, when not reaching a Brexit deal would mean the supply of vital medicines would be under threat.
    Life comes fast these days.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    IshmaelZ said:

    Shit that is *not* good news.

    Moderna say "very slight diminution in efficacy" against B.1.351

    https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/25/moderna-vaccine-less-effective-variant/
    That's pretty much the same as the Pfizer announcement: less efficacious, but not much.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,127
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291

    Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Well, to be fair the SNP are a bunch of wreckers. It's kind of their raison d'etre, isn't it?
    I did a double take there! I though you'd posted another word that starts with "w" and ends in "s" :D
  • Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Treacherous certainly
    Perhaps a notable wordsmith such as yourself can explain the difference between traitorous and treacherous?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Its more the "slothful Jock" who is deliberately confusing "projected deliveries" with "allocated supplies" - because the latter shows up the gap between what Scotland could do and what it has done....
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
    My question to you will be an actual situation within a few weeks.

    Your question to me will not be.
    Both questions were asinine. Difference is I know mine was.
    So you will be getting vaccinated.

    Its up to others to make the sacrifice on behalf of the world's vulnerable.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Does anyone else remember the Brexit deal clause that said that the EU could sequester all of the vaccines?

    I'm sure that even if I somehow managed to miss it it would have been discussed here?

    One of the German politicians mentioned the relevant Articles. I don't know if was under EU or WTO rules, but I am sure it is an exception based on national emergency and security needs.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    GIN1138 said:

    Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Well, to be fair the SNP are a bunch of wreckers. It's kind of their raison d'etre, isn't it?
    I did a double take there! I though you'd posted another word that starts with "w" and ends in "s" :D
    I thought the same and then shrugged and thought - both work :smiley:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    HYUFD said:
    He's going to bring that up from now to infinity.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited January 2021

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
    I am not the one making that argument. It is the EU, not the UK. The UK has unabashedly and unapologetically pursued a UK-first approach, so at least in that it is not being hypocritical.
  • Good oh, I didn't think we'd reach the traitorous Jock stage quite so quickly.
    Well, to be fair the SNP are a bunch of wreckers. It's kind of their raison d'etre, isn't it?
    Since your constant plaintive cry is that you want the SNP to get on with their stated aim, I guess that rather puts you in the wrecker camp also?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    Novavax is also working with the Serum Institute of India, and expects to produce two billion doses this year.

    I don't know what their delivery schedule is for the US and the UK.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,214
    Pagan2 said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
    Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
    Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
    Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
  • Again, no comment. I say the EU hasn't got a healthy fucking leg to stand on in this argument and get not one response backing them.

    Have even the remainiacs come to silently reason that they've been on the wrong side?

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
    Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
    Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
    Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
    Show your working.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    How does Sputnik to compare to all these other ones btw?

    Gamelaya is going to release proper trial results very soon, apparently.

    Interestingly, despite having their own vaccine and everything, Russia is behind the EU in terms of actually getting it into peoples' arms.
    Russia is an upper middle income country (poorer in per capita GDP terms than every EU state except Bulgaria,) with a clapped out healthcare system. It's unsurprising that it's a bit of a slowcoach.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Floater said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
    Unlike you we would prioritize the poor nations over those rich EU nations
    Did you not realise Kinablu was a bigot before this and that white europeans count more?
    Every person in the world has an equal right to the vaccine age for age. This should be the assumption and the goal. We will deviate from this since there is national politics to deal with but the deviation should be minimised. A global needs driven vaccination is best for ending this global pandemic in the shortest time with lowest risk of more black swans.
    Are that many people actually arguing against the need to vaccinate the world, and for the UK to help that happen?

    Seems like the argument is about what 'minimal deviation' means and therefore at what point that would be reasonable.
  • TimT said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
    I am not the one making that argument. It is the EU, not the UK. The UK has unabashedly and unapologetically pursued a UK-first approach, so at least in that it is not being hypocritical.
    I actually asked a question but I guess a bit of 'at least we're honest shits' equivocation will have to do.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rcs1000 said:

    Novavax is also working with the Serum Institute of India, and expects to produce two billion doses this year.

    I don't know what their delivery schedule is for the US and the UK.

    I saw a presentation last week that suggested volume production in the UK in "late Q1" so hopefully within the next 6-8 weeks we'll start getting millions per week.

    They also told us about their technology being as easy to store and transport as the AZ vaccine, it doesn't need super cold refrigeration or a super cold logistics chain to the end delivery point and it's got longer dated expiry out of the fridge than both Pfizer and AZ making it ideal for use in South Asia, Africa and South America.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.

    But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.

    I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.

    Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
    Assuming J&J is positive next week, and both they and Novavax are approved by the end of February, then yes, a million jabs a day will be more than achievable.

    Now, I have no doubt that we'll all be getting "South African Modified" booster shots in the late Summer or Autumn, but at a million shots a day, and only one needed for J&J, pretty much everyone will be protected by the end of April.

    Which will have been an extraordinary achievement.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I know people have slagged off EOTHO repeatedly for being a disease driver, but in truth it would be no surprise if it didn't make a significant contribution to spreading the Plague. Restaurants (when we were still actually allowed to visit them) had tough Covid secure measures in place, and the Summer was a period of very low transmission.

    Whether you'd get away with opening up hospitality right now is an entirely different matter - but we're not going to find out, of course.
  • I wonder if Grant Shapps wants a similar analysis made on his decisions.
  • rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.

    But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.

    I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.

    Spot on.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.

    But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.

    I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.

    Yep, you are right. I can imagine soon, 1m jabs a day in the UK will be feasible, and in the EU, it will be the delivery process and anti-vaxxerism that will be the rate-limiting factor, not supply.
    Assuming J&J is positive next week, and both they and Novavax are approved by the end of February, then yes, a million jabs a day will be more than achievable.

    Now, I have no doubt that we'll all be getting "South African Modified" booster shots in the late Summer or Autumn, but at a million shots a day, and only one needed for J&J, pretty much everyone will be protected by the end of April.

    Which will have been an extraordinary achievement.
    We're not going to be done that quick.

    However, barring any major resistance calamities, an end to bloody lockdowns is finally in sight. It's been good the last few days to finally feel some confidence and have some degree of expectation that the future won't be totally shit.

    I do hope that confidence doesn't transpire to be misplaced.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    How does Sputnik to compare to all these other ones btw?

    Gamelaya is going to release proper trial results very soon, apparently.

    Interestingly, despite having their own vaccine and everything, Russia is behind the EU in terms of actually getting it into peoples' arms.
    Russia is an upper middle income country (poorer in per capita GDP terms than every EU state except Bulgaria,) with a clapped out healthcare system. It's unsurprising that it's a bit of a slowcoach.
    True: but 30,000 shots a day is nothing - it's less than Romania is doing. How can they even think about exporting if they aren't able to produce it in volume for their domestic markets.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021
    He does seem to be getting some prominent press lately. I know his 'institute' has published stuff in relation to Covid, but it's still interesting - I feel like he hasn't been this notable since he retired as PM, apart from in the nightmares of Corbynistas.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,214
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
    Er, what? I'm happy to wait until older and more vulnerable Britons have been protected, but no way am I waiting until all those groups in the entire EU have been done! There's altruism, and then there's masochistic martyrdom.
    A natural enough impulse but the decision makers will hopefully be more far-sighted. From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. This must be more than a platitude on the global vaccination. It must be the guiding spirit. Otherwise forget about getting out of this before many more years have passed.
    No way - we get all our people done first and then we can be as generous to the rest of the world as we like. Making younger people wait any longer than they are due to already would be a catastrophic mistake, and I hope the government won't be stupid enough to make it.
    If all countries follow that template it will prolong the pandemic.
    Can we assume you will decline the vaccination so that people at higher risk throughout the world can receive if first ?
    Can we assume you would steal a jab from a penniless 85 year old Arabian nomad?
    Your overwhelming virtue and saintliness is quite something. Presumably you would like to delay vaccination for all your vulnerable British friends relatives parents in the 40s, 50s, 60s, or with desperate diseases, and make them wait for years until we, in Britain, have personally vaccinated everyone in the developing world with a British vaccine paid for by British taxpayers and developed in Britain. And we should also hang back until we have jabbed anyone in Ireland with a cough. Or Germans with asthma.

    I am curious. Where do you draw the line? At what point do your fellow Brits get priority?
    Well you caricature there. It's great we have a head of steam. All I'm doing is making the point that this pales into insignificance compared to the global challenge - and that the global challenge will become harder if a "winning the competition" and "beating the others" and "charity begins at home" mentality gets in the box seat. Which I observe it doing in places.
  • The other problem with us surrendering and acquiescing to the EU's ludicrous demands is that their sclerotic nature will ensure that they spend at least a month quarrelling over who gets what of our fair share.
  • kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    But you're wrong and should have the humility to accept you were wrong.

    A "nationalistic warrior approach" is what is needed here. It is what has allowed the UK to pay over the odds to create new vaccine manufacturing to create supplies that didn't previously exist. None of these vaccines just fell in our laps - they've been funded by a "nationalistic warrior mentality" which is what allows them to exist - and allows them to be exported around the globe.

    Thanks to the "nationalistic warrior mentality" there will be more than enough vaccine doses for the UK plus vaccines going to the rest of the globe and Covax for the third world.

    If the EU had adopted more of a "nationalistic warrior mentality" then maybe they'd have paid for some bloody vaccines. How the hell do you think the world can eliminate this damned bloody virus if European countries won't even pay for vaccine development?

    Its a war against the virus. It needs a warrior mentality not just idly waiting for it to be delivered to you at the cheapest rate possible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    I wonder if Grant Shapps wants a similar analysis made on his decisions.
    Or Williamson - it would be a short analysis at least.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    There's no doubt they're behaving poorly. But I'm not getting too excited, because there's a world of difference between chest beating, and actually taking the gigantic step of stopping supplies of contracted vaccines to an ally. That's a step that would have massive long-term issues for the EU, and would (of course) be extremely negative for UK-EU relations.

    But politicians will be politicians. EU Commission types are being hammered by national politicians who are being hammered by their press. "We must do something!" the people cry out. (And who can blame them?) And this seems like something.

    I think what the EU wants is a solemn promise from AZN and Pfizer that they are trebling their efforts and will deliver promised doses as soon as possible. I think they'll get that and announce victory and no-one will ever know if victory was actually achieved because the US and the UK will have Novavax coming, and J&J will soon start rolling off the production lines for European markets, and vaccine availability everywhere will suddenly look very different.

    I think (on topic) the EU, which most people think of as aloof and technocratic, is actually being populist. I suspect it's a mistake to assume the man and woman on the street in Hamburg and Porto support Astrazeneca over the EU Commission, far less support the UK. They are seeing a bunch of vaccines going from the EU to the UK and none from the UK to the EU and think we will keep ours for ourselves. They don't care what the contract says.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Course of he was in charge half of our vaccine supplies would go the same way as half of Maggie's rebate...
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
    I am not the one making that argument. It is the EU, not the UK. The UK has unabashedly and unapologetically pursued a UK-first approach, so at least in that it is not being hypocritical.
    I actually asked a question but I guess a bit of 'at least we're honest shits' equivocation will have to do.
    Of course, if Scotland were an independent country and had a shiny vaccine factory, it would demonstrate moral leadership by donating a population-proportionate share of all its production to the rest of the world.

    I'm sure you'd manage just fine with 0.07%.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited January 2021

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    What's the UK share on a supply v. global population basis?
    I am not the one making that argument. It is the EU, not the UK. The UK has unabashedly and unapologetically pursued a UK-first approach, so at least in that it is not being hypocritical.
    I actually asked a question but I guess a bit of 'at least we're honest shits' equivocation will have to do.
    Of course, if Scotland were an independent country and had a shiny vaccine factory, it would demonstrate moral leadership by donating a population-proportionate share of all its production to the rest of the world.

    I'm sure you'd manage just fine with 0.07%.
    Thanks for answering a post replying to someone else while body swerving one addressed to you. All cool.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,214
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I like the fact that most of those calling us xenophobic bigots are complaining at the people who are saying morally it it better to help the third world that european nations.....the thought occurs they are total hypocritical bigots

    I'm not moralising or name calling. I'm just making the point that a nationalistic warrior approach is the wrong one here. It will get in the way.
    I agree with you kinabalu, that this is an issue where breast-beating, no matter how satisfying and natural, is unhelpful. But the most hypocritical players here are the EU. They demand diversion of UK supply to them to get their fair share, whereas, at 17% of supply for 5% of global population, if they were so keen on fair share they should be giving away some of what they already have to other countries worse off than they, rather than doing what they are doing.
    Well I'm not really defending the EU. They will hopefully resolve their dispute with AZ and then pick up steam. And they should be playing a leading role in funding the global rollout.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    How does Sputnik to compare to all these other ones btw?

    Gamelaya is going to release proper trial results very soon, apparently.

    Interestingly, despite having their own vaccine and everything, Russia is behind the EU in terms of actually getting it into peoples' arms.
    Russia is an upper middle income country (poorer in per capita GDP terms than every EU state except Bulgaria,) with a clapped out healthcare system. It's unsurprising that it's a bit of a slowcoach.
    True: but 30,000 shots a day is nothing - it's less than Romania is doing. How can they even think about exporting if they aren't able to produce it in volume for their domestic markets.
    To use it for diplomatic leverage.

    I'm sure that important Russians are getting the jabs. Do you think that Putin cares if the rank and file citizenry, especially the poor, get jabbed? Why would he? They're expendable.
This discussion has been closed.