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The big vaccine divide: The UK’s approach is politician led while the EU’s is run by its officers –

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  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I want to apologize to the world - all of it - for Jacob Rees Mogg. For me it's got to that stage.

    Apology accepted. Don't do it again.
    Tried to watch that clip of him on PT and even though it was short I could not get through it. That's never happened to me before. It was literally unbearable.
    JRM is a total embarrassment

    Another to be reshuffled out of cabinet

    And I am with you @kinabalu
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Telegraph with a controversial take on this

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1354706310063923200?s=20

    That really is a true low for a paper which is supposed not to be of the gutter variety. Covid is a global problem and for first world countries like the UK to be saying we are OK sod the rest of the world is truly contemptible, It makes me embarrassed to be English. No wonder we are so widely disliked.
    You have no evidence for your assertion about the English which makes you worse than the Telegraph. It does not represent the British people or the British government. You clearly do not know that the UK has provided more to Covax than the entirety of the EU and way more in vaccine development. Take your silly prejudices where the sun doesn't shine.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    The lockdown debate at the cambridge union is tonight apparently.

    Richard Tice, Toby Young and the great Sir Graham Brady agin lockdown.

    Cheers. I'd like to watch that. Is it being live-streamed, do you know?
    I dunno but, like yourself, it would be an interesting watch and I bet there are plenty who would like to view it.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    An interesting research paper has just been published.

    Both liberals and conservatives believe that using facts in political discussions helps to foster mutual respect, but 15 studies—across multiple methodologies and issues—show that these beliefs are mistaken. Political opponents respect moral beliefs more when they are supported by personal experiences, not facts.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2008389118

    I think that makes sense, and is illustrated on PB. Dogmatism and "facts" don't change minds. Personal experiences sometimes do. There is a lot of empathy on PB.

    Excellent header by the way.


    Which is a problem.

    As it just encourages hyperbole based on anecdote.

    I mean, Foxy is a doctor.

    Roger, Bron and me all pointed out data that showed only 48 healthy under forties had died from Covid in England by 17 Dec.

    Foxy then said, well we have a woman in her twenties in ICU.

    Of course, both of those are true statements.

    Yet many people afford more weight to the ICU anecdote, which is clearly unwise.

    Yet they do.
    Except the research also showed that personal experiences only have an advantage in moral disagreement.
    For all agreement (whether moral or nonmoral) and for nonmoral disagreement, facts foster respect just as well as experiences.

    I remember the exchange on the death rate for under forties. I was much more persuaded by the facts than the anecdote, but I realise that some others weren't.

    Moral and political disagreements are not about the facts of the matters but much more about feelings fed by personal experiences and upbringing. And that's fine by me. There is no objective truth.

    But I agree that non-moral disagreements are better resolved by facts than personal anecdotes when there are facts of the matter and objective truth.
    But, even then, facts may not help if the 'truth' they point to is too far out of a person's world view. Jonah Berger's The Catalyst is excellent on this matter.

    "For people who were already favorably disposed toward vaccines, the additional information helped. It reduced misperceptions and increased their intent to vaccinate kids.

    "But for participants with less favorable attitudes towards vaccines, exposure to the truth backfired. Providing scientific evidence from the CDC didn't correct the misinformation. In fact, just the opposite: it made them less likely to want to vaccinate their kids. [2014 article from Pediatrics journal]

    "Numerous other studies have found similar effects. ... Rather than changing false beliefs, exposure to the truth often increased misperceptions." [Testing the Effects of Motivated Reasoning on Political Decision Making" Journal of Politics, 2002]

    both cited in Berger's book.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    felix said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    That is already the plan - to send it to the developed world - not to rich countries and make the poorer natons wait even longer. How unchristian are you?
    Quite, hence the massive over capacity in orders and manufacturing plants. And cash to the international vaccine effort.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    The lockdown debate at the cambridge union is tonight apparently.

    Richard Tice, Toby Young and the great Sir Graham Brady agin lockdown.

    Cheers. I'd like to watch that. Is it being live-streamed, do you know?
    I just checked on the Cambrdige Union Website and there is a link to the youtube livestream Kinabalu. Enjoy.
  • Worrying news from North Wales

    A major search operation is under way for three people missing on a fishing boat that left Conwy on Wednesday.
    The vessel had been expected back in port at midnight.

    A coastguard spokeswoman said: "At just after 10am this morning, HM Coastguard received a report of an overdue fishing vessel with three people on board.

    "The vessel had departed from Conwy, on the north coast of Wales, yesterday. The vessel was expected back in port at midnight last night."

    Rescue teams from Rhyl, Bangor and Llandudno Coastguard Rescue Teams have been sent to assist along with six RNLI lifeboats from Rhyl, Llandudno & Conwy.

    A search and rescue helicopter from Caernarfon is also on the scene. A fixed wing plane is also joining the search operation.

    The RNLI said an Atlantic 85 lifeboat from Beaumaris was launched at around 14:30 GMT to search around the Puffin Island area.

    An RNLI spokeswoman said it was extremely unusual to have six lifeboats all out on the same operation at the same time.


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    What should they have written down instead?
    N/A (or, rather, the German equivalent).
    How would writing that be more informative?
    More honest because there is not enough data to draw ANY conclusion.
  • What should they have written down instead?
    N/A (or, rather, the German equivalent).
    How would writing that be more informative?
    Because it would be correct.

    This is really, really basic stuff. They've done the equivalent of throwing a dice three times, getting one three and two sixes, and writing down the mean expected value for this dice as 5. No, sorry, 5.0!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    edited January 2021
    felix said:

    Looks like David Nixon in the photo - but where's the rabbit?

    Him being jagged 40+ years after his death would be some some rabbit
  • gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
  • OTOH, we don't seem to be ramping up the jabs, do we? Rather ramping down, if anything. Presumably supply disruptions.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570

    felix said:

    Looks like David Nixon in the photo - but where's the rabbit?

    Him being jagged 40+ years after his death would be some some rabbit
    I'm impressed that people still know who David Nixon is!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    The lockdown debate at the cambridge union is tonight apparently.

    Richard Tice, Toby Young and the great Sir Graham Brady agin lockdown.

    Cheers. I'd like to watch that. Is it being live-streamed, do you know?
    It is either live streamed here will be here, starts at 8pm.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8fBJ_03-E4&feature=youtu.be
  • OTOH, we don't seem to be ramping up the jabs, do we? Rather ramping down, if anything. Presumably supply disruptions.

    I am sure you are right but more and more people are saying they have been vaccinated right across the UK
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,822
    They've gone insane, it's the only possible explanation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Worrying news from North Wales

    A major search operation is under way for three people missing on a fishing boat that left Conwy on Wednesday.
    The vessel had been expected back in port at midnight.

    A coastguard spokeswoman said: "At just after 10am this morning, HM Coastguard received a report of an overdue fishing vessel with three people on board.

    "The vessel had departed from Conwy, on the north coast of Wales, yesterday. The vessel was expected back in port at midnight last night."

    Rescue teams from Rhyl, Bangor and Llandudno Coastguard Rescue Teams have been sent to assist along with six RNLI lifeboats from Rhyl, Llandudno & Conwy.

    A search and rescue helicopter from Caernarfon is also on the scene. A fixed wing plane is also joining the search operation.

    The RNLI said an Atlantic 85 lifeboat from Beaumaris was launched at around 14:30 GMT to search around the Puffin Island area.

    An RNLI spokeswoman said it was extremely unusual to have six lifeboats all out on the same operation at the same time.

    That doesn’t sound good - a lot of resources being put to sea and air. Hopefully there will some news soon.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Not to be pedantic or anything but I think the picture is from an earlier visit. The PCN referred to is indeed in Harrow, north London (I did wonder if there was a Harrow, Scotland, but apparently not).

    Not at all. Pedantry is part of the life-blood of PB.
    Iifeblood doesn't have a hyphen.
    .. hang on. Just checked. It does, at least in Scotland and Scrabble (Chambers Dictionary).
  • Sandpit said:

    Worrying news from North Wales

    A major search operation is under way for three people missing on a fishing boat that left Conwy on Wednesday.
    The vessel had been expected back in port at midnight.

    A coastguard spokeswoman said: "At just after 10am this morning, HM Coastguard received a report of an overdue fishing vessel with three people on board.

    "The vessel had departed from Conwy, on the north coast of Wales, yesterday. The vessel was expected back in port at midnight last night."

    Rescue teams from Rhyl, Bangor and Llandudno Coastguard Rescue Teams have been sent to assist along with six RNLI lifeboats from Rhyl, Llandudno & Conwy.

    A search and rescue helicopter from Caernarfon is also on the scene. A fixed wing plane is also joining the search operation.

    The RNLI said an Atlantic 85 lifeboat from Beaumaris was launched at around 14:30 GMT to search around the Puffin Island area.

    An RNLI spokeswoman said it was extremely unusual to have six lifeboats all out on the same operation at the same time.

    That doesn’t sound good - a lot of resources being put to sea and air. Hopefully there will some news soon.
    I notice on flight radar helicopters zig zagging across the North Wales coast.

    This looks very serious
  • OTOH, we don't seem to be ramping up the jabs, do we? Rather ramping down, if anything. Presumably supply disruptions.

    I am sure you are right but more and more people are saying they have been vaccinated right across the UK
    Yes. Maybe there is some explanation related to the groups being vaccinated, for example perhaps they have now largely completed vaccinating NHS staff? It would be nice to know a bit more.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    TimT said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    An interesting research paper has just been published.

    Both liberals and conservatives believe that using facts in political discussions helps to foster mutual respect, but 15 studies—across multiple methodologies and issues—show that these beliefs are mistaken. Political opponents respect moral beliefs more when they are supported by personal experiences, not facts.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2008389118

    I think that makes sense, and is illustrated on PB. Dogmatism and "facts" don't change minds. Personal experiences sometimes do. There is a lot of empathy on PB.

    Excellent header by the way.


    Which is a problem.

    As it just encourages hyperbole based on anecdote.

    I mean, Foxy is a doctor.

    Roger, Bron and me all pointed out data that showed only 48 healthy under forties had died from Covid in England by 17 Dec.

    Foxy then said, well we have a woman in her twenties in ICU.

    Of course, both of those are true statements.

    Yet many people afford more weight to the ICU anecdote, which is clearly unwise.

    Yet they do.
    Except the research also showed that personal experiences only have an advantage in moral disagreement.
    For all agreement (whether moral or nonmoral) and for nonmoral disagreement, facts foster respect just as well as experiences.

    I remember the exchange on the death rate for under forties. I was much more persuaded by the facts than the anecdote, but I realise that some others weren't.

    Moral and political disagreements are not about the facts of the matters but much more about feelings fed by personal experiences and upbringing. And that's fine by me. There is no objective truth.

    But I agree that non-moral disagreements are better resolved by facts than personal anecdotes when there are facts of the matter and objective truth.
    But, even then, facts may not help if the 'truth' they point to is too far out of a person's world view. Jonah Berger's The Catalyst is excellent on this matter.

    "For people who were already favorably disposed toward vaccines, the additional information helped. It reduced misperceptions and increased their intent to vaccinate kids.

    "But for participants with less favorable attitudes towards vaccines, exposure to the truth backfired. Providing scientific evidence from the CDC didn't correct the misinformation. In fact, just the opposite: it made them less likely to want to vaccinate their kids. [2014 article from Pediatrics journal]

    "Numerous other studies have found similar effects. ... Rather than changing false beliefs, exposure to the truth often increased misperceptions." [Testing the Effects of Motivated Reasoning on Political Decision Making" Journal of Politics, 2002]

    both cited in Berger's book.
    Interesting. I'll follow up the Berger book.
    https://jonahberger.com/books/the-catalyst/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,450
    edited January 2021
    Boris took a huge gamble in the summer with the agreement to purchase huge amounts of the two leading vaccine prospects well before it was clear that they would work.

    ----

    This isn't really the fully story. The UK backed a wide range of options, basically the most promising across a range of different approaches, not just 2. The only one we were slow.on was Moderna, but that is because it was similar to Pfizer and Moderna have no track record.

    It is certainly.lucky AZN turned out well, but we still have large orders for Pfizer, J&J etc. We would not be in as good a position without AZN, but the UK were much quicker off the mark and put their money where their mouth is with I think 7 different potential vaccines.

    Israel is especially fortunate that Pfizer worked out given they did a special deal with them.
  • I went into the wrong profession.

    A company owned by a friend of the Unite leader Len McCluskey has been paid £95 million by the union for a construction project that was initially supposed to cost £7 million, it is revealed today.

    The Flanagan Group received the money for its work as primary contractor on the building of a national conference centre and hotel in Birmingham for Unite, Britain’s most powerful trade union.

    Further evidence of the spiralling cost of Unite’s flagship development emerged on the eve of a crisis meeting at which the union’s ruling council will receive a report on the financing of the complex.

    Questions are likely to be asked about how contracts were awarded and the level of diligence and scrutiny that was applied to the prices charged by contractors throughout the four-year build.

    It is thought that Flanagan’s overall profit from the project will be more than £15 million. Work began in 2016 and was finally completed last year, significantly late and over budget.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/friend-of-unite-leader-was-paid-95m-for-project-estimated-to-cost-7m-hvcrwv5n2
  • Can I make three suggestions?

    Pay for them.

    Do so well in advance.

    Invest in manufacturing.
  • I guess Handelsblatt are feeling smug today.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited January 2021
    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited January 2021
    RobD said:

    They've gone insane, it's the only possible explanation.
    I would not blame any pharmaceutical company from leaving the EU after this and relocating to the UK and Switzerland

    Indeed on the wider view, if I was an International Company looking to invest in Europe I would have serious reservations after this episode
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,822
    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited January 2021
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not to be pedantic or anything but I think the picture is from an earlier visit. The PCN referred to is indeed in Harrow, north London (I did wonder if there was a Harrow, Scotland, but apparently not).

    Not at all. Pedantry is part of the life-blood of PB.
    Iifeblood doesn't have a hyphen.
    .. hang on. Just checked. It does, at least in Scotland and Scrabble (Chambers Dictionary).
    How do you propose to play a hyphen in Scrabble? Or are we into De Facto and De Jure Scrabble letters?

    Just asking.

    (Blanks can only be a letter)
  • FossFoss Posts: 992
    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    We need some polling on this, but I suspect that they'd be an awful lot of vax-nots who would be unwilling to sacrifice another summer to cover for the EU's failures.
  • Can we charge Nicola Sturgeon with treason? She's a risk to Scotland's health.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of undermining efforts to prevent the European Union from taking UK-bound vaccines by threatening to publish details of confidential supplies.

    The UK government wants to keep secret how many doses are being delivered to avoid aggravating tensions with other nations struggling to secure vaccines.

    The row with the European Commission and Astrazeneca over reduced deliveries, thought to total between 60 to 75 million doses, has shown the acute sensitivity of the issue. The commission suspects Astrazeneca of giving Britain preferential treatment and ordered inspections of its Belgium plant to check its claim that there was a production problem.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeon-threatens-to-publish-supply-data-in-eu-astrazeneca-vaccine-row-9t5c2xsx8
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    OTOH, we don't seem to be ramping up the jabs, do we? Rather ramping down, if anything. Presumably supply disruptions.

    Yes, Pfizer had a big drop in production last week and the week before so it's hit our supplies, plus AZ are struggling at one of their sites to get up to full production so the expected maximum of 2.5m doses per week in Q1 won't be reached for another 3 weeks minimum now. We should still just about hit the government target of groups 1-4 being offered a jab with a high level of take up.
  • RobD said:

    They've gone insane, it's the only possible explanation.
    Full metal Cartman....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Sandpit said:

    Worrying news from North Wales

    A major search operation is under way for three people missing on a fishing boat that left Conwy on Wednesday.
    The vessel had been expected back in port at midnight.

    A coastguard spokeswoman said: "At just after 10am this morning, HM Coastguard received a report of an overdue fishing vessel with three people on board.

    "The vessel had departed from Conwy, on the north coast of Wales, yesterday. The vessel was expected back in port at midnight last night."

    Rescue teams from Rhyl, Bangor and Llandudno Coastguard Rescue Teams have been sent to assist along with six RNLI lifeboats from Rhyl, Llandudno & Conwy.

    A search and rescue helicopter from Caernarfon is also on the scene. A fixed wing plane is also joining the search operation.

    The RNLI said an Atlantic 85 lifeboat from Beaumaris was launched at around 14:30 GMT to search around the Puffin Island area.

    An RNLI spokeswoman said it was extremely unusual to have six lifeboats all out on the same operation at the same time.

    That doesn’t sound good - a lot of resources being put to sea and air. Hopefully there will some news soon.
    I notice on flight radar helicopters zig zagging across the North Wales coast.

    This looks very serious
    My guess would be that they have a large area to search, and it’s an otherwise quiet day for emergency response resources, so everyone’s welcome to join in.

    A three-man fishing boat is a small target in a big ocean, and absent a transponder location or emergency beacon, could be anywhere.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Expropriating the means of production for the greater good? Are these people completely mental?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
    so this doesn't refer to supplies destined (originally intended) for the UK?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @Ishmael_X FPT

    Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.

    From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.

    That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.

    On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).

    When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.

    The issues I have with this situation are:

    (a) Naked shorting is illegal
    (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon
    (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse

    No body comes out of this well.

    Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.
  • Rocking horse poo and Rees-Mogg not being a dick, both less rare than a Tory PM visiting Scotland and not having a fisher folk photo op.

    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1354837786625536000?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,450
    edited January 2021

    OTOH, we don't seem to be ramping up the jabs, do we? Rather ramping down, if anything. Presumably supply disruptions.

    I am sure you are right but more and more people are saying they have been vaccinated right across the UK
    Yes. Maybe there is some explanation related to the groups being vaccinated, for example perhaps they have now largely completed vaccinating NHS staff? It would be nice to know a bit more.
    I think there are supply issues, but i found out today some of my extended family have appointments for next week and they are in the lowest category 4, so I have to presume in their areas they have got through all the rest
  • RobD said:

    They've gone insane, it's the only possible explanation.
    I would not blame any pharmaceutical company from leaving the EU after this and relocating to the UK and Switzerland

    Indeed on the wider view, if I was an International Company looking to invest in Europe I would have serious reservations after this episode
    While Rishi Sunak has his chequebook out if any companies want to relocate during the pandemic to invest in the UK that should be facilitated.

    Not normally, but if this is war then we need to do what we need to do.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    felix said:

    Looks like David Nixon in the photo - but where's the rabbit?

    Him being jagged 40+ years after his death would be some some rabbit
    Apparently we have spares.....
  • Boris PR team getting slack, no flags in that photo....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    I went into the wrong profession.

    A company owned by a friend of the Unite leader Len McCluskey has been paid £95 million by the union for a construction project that was initially supposed to cost £7 million, it is revealed today.

    The Flanagan Group received the money for its work as primary contractor on the building of a national conference centre and hotel in Birmingham for Unite, Britain’s most powerful trade union.

    Further evidence of the spiralling cost of Unite’s flagship development emerged on the eve of a crisis meeting at which the union’s ruling council will receive a report on the financing of the complex.

    Questions are likely to be asked about how contracts were awarded and the level of diligence and scrutiny that was applied to the prices charged by contractors throughout the four-year build.

    It is thought that Flanagan’s overall profit from the project will be more than £15 million. Work began in 2016 and was finally completed last year, significantly late and over budget.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/friend-of-unite-leader-was-paid-95m-for-project-estimated-to-cost-7m-hvcrwv5n2

    How the hell is a trade union spending £95m on building a conference centre and hotel in the first place?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Can we charge Nicola Sturgeon with treason? She's a risk to Scotland's health.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of undermining efforts to prevent the European Union from taking UK-bound vaccines by threatening to publish details of confidential supplies.

    The UK government wants to keep secret how many doses are being delivered to avoid aggravating tensions with other nations struggling to secure vaccines.

    The row with the European Commission and Astrazeneca over reduced deliveries, thought to total between 60 to 75 million doses, has shown the acute sensitivity of the issue. The commission suspects Astrazeneca of giving Britain preferential treatment and ordered inspections of its Belgium plant to check its claim that there was a production problem.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeon-threatens-to-publish-supply-data-in-eu-astrazeneca-vaccine-row-9t5c2xsx8

    Her release of that data was ill advised, I don't understand why anyone thought it was a good idea.
  • Sandpit said:

    I went into the wrong profession.

    A company owned by a friend of the Unite leader Len McCluskey has been paid £95 million by the union for a construction project that was initially supposed to cost £7 million, it is revealed today.

    The Flanagan Group received the money for its work as primary contractor on the building of a national conference centre and hotel in Birmingham for Unite, Britain’s most powerful trade union.

    Further evidence of the spiralling cost of Unite’s flagship development emerged on the eve of a crisis meeting at which the union’s ruling council will receive a report on the financing of the complex.

    Questions are likely to be asked about how contracts were awarded and the level of diligence and scrutiny that was applied to the prices charged by contractors throughout the four-year build.

    It is thought that Flanagan’s overall profit from the project will be more than £15 million. Work began in 2016 and was finally completed last year, significantly late and over budget.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/friend-of-unite-leader-was-paid-95m-for-project-estimated-to-cost-7m-hvcrwv5n2

    How the hell is a trade union spending £95m on building a conference centre and hotel in the first place?
    For the weeeeerkersss.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,822
    edited January 2021
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
    so this doesn't refer to supplies destined (originally intended) for the UK?
    That's the point of contention. The EU are arguing that the UK is being supplied with vaccines belonging to the EU. AZN deny this.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    Portugal did very well, comparatively, in the first wave last spring.

    Their PM does take some responsibility, unlike others I know:

    The prime minister also said he should have explained things better.

    “There were certainly errors: often the way I transmitted the message to the Portuguese ... and, when the recipient of the message did not understand the message, then it is the messenger’s fault, I have no doubt about it,” he said.

  • Looks like the government may have damaged the chances of British clubs winning the Champions League/Europa League.

    Arsenal are exploring alternative venues for their Europa League last-32 tie with Benfica, which looks unlikely to be played in England or Portugal given strict Covid-19 quarantine regulations.

    The UK government has placed Portugal on a “red list” for international travel this month, meaning anyone arriving in the UK from that country is required to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days. That is obviously impractical for Arsenal when they return from the first leg, scheduled to take place in Lisbon on 18 February, and similarly for Benfica’s hopes of playing at the Emirates a week later.

    Previously in the pandemic, elite sports players have been granted an exemption to quarantine rules. However, the UK government has no plans to allow one this time given the gravity of the public health situation and its stance is that, to avoid the period of self-isolation, the tie will have to take place in a country to which movement is less limited.

    Arsenal are understood to have made preliminary contact with other national associations about the possibility of playing on their territory, although they still hope to find a resolution that maintains the status quo. The government is mindful of the volume of cross-continental football to be played in February and March, when a busy international break takes place and accepts the Covid-19 picture could change quickly. There is little appetite, though, to make further exceptions for football and the clubs face a race against time to find a new venue.

    Uefa permits such a switch under a set of special rules for Covid-19 conditions it created for this season’s tournaments. It is incumbent on the home club to find a location for each leg under those regulations, although discussions between Arsenal and Benfica are likely to be fluid. Arsenal remain in dialogue with the Football Association and Premier League, as well as the department for digital, culture, media and sport.


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/28/arsenal-venue-europa-league-tie-benfica-covid-travel-restrictions

    Given the poor vaccine rollouts across the EU I suspect England & Scotland will not be hosting any Euro 2020 matches either.
  • Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    OMFG!

    I'm not given to swearing or blasphemy, but this is a special occasion
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Charles said:

    @Ishmael_X FPT

    Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.

    From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.

    That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.

    On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).

    When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.

    The issues I have with this situation are:

    (a) Naked shorting is illegal
    (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon
    (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse

    No body comes out of this well.

    Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.

    Hey Charles - as per my response earlier (not 100% sure the retail guys were pumping) here is an interesting article (which of course agrees with my point!).

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-01-26/will-wallstreetbets-face-sec-scrutiny-after-gamestop-rally-kke9fpzq

    (For the third time so huge apols!)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Looks like the government may have damaged the chances of British clubs winning the Champions League/Europa League.

    Arsenal are exploring alternative venues for their Europa League last-32 tie with Benfica, which looks unlikely to be played in England or Portugal given strict Covid-19 quarantine regulations.

    The UK government has placed Portugal on a “red list” for international travel this month, meaning anyone arriving in the UK from that country is required to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days. That is obviously impractical for Arsenal when they return from the first leg, scheduled to take place in Lisbon on 18 February, and similarly for Benfica’s hopes of playing at the Emirates a week later.

    Previously in the pandemic, elite sports players have been granted an exemption to quarantine rules. However, the UK government has no plans to allow one this time given the gravity of the public health situation and its stance is that, to avoid the period of self-isolation, the tie will have to take place in a country to which movement is less limited.

    Arsenal are understood to have made preliminary contact with other national associations about the possibility of playing on their territory, although they still hope to find a resolution that maintains the status quo. The government is mindful of the volume of cross-continental football to be played in February and March, when a busy international break takes place and accepts the Covid-19 picture could change quickly. There is little appetite, though, to make further exceptions for football and the clubs face a race against time to find a new venue.

    Uefa permits such a switch under a set of special rules for Covid-19 conditions it created for this season’s tournaments. It is incumbent on the home club to find a location for each leg under those regulations, although discussions between Arsenal and Benfica are likely to be fluid. Arsenal remain in dialogue with the Football Association and Premier League, as well as the department for digital, culture, media and sport.


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/28/arsenal-venue-europa-league-tie-benfica-covid-travel-restrictions

    Given the poor vaccine rollouts across the EU I suspect England & Scotland will not be hosting any Euro 2020 matches either.

    Surely we should host all of them given that we may be able to have crowds by then?
  • UK vaccine procurement vs Germany (& EU)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIJqF8av6I
  • RobD said:

    They've gone insane, it's the only possible explanation.
    I would not blame any pharmaceutical company from leaving the EU after this and relocating to the UK and Switzerland

    Indeed on the wider view, if I was an International Company looking to invest in Europe I would have serious reservations after this episode
    While Rishi Sunak has his chequebook out if any companies want to relocate during the pandemic to invest in the UK that should be facilitated.

    Not normally, but if this is war then we need to do what we need to do.
    Oh dear, the thicky Brexiteer obsession with war rears it's very ugly and stupid head again. It isn't war, it is a diplomatic spat, where the EU commission didn't take the gamble our government did and now is trying to play to the 27 nation gallery to cover it's ineptitude. You really shouldn't gloat. The UK government under Bozo called the vaccine right, and were lucky we have a first rate pharma industry and excellent regulatory body. They have got loads of other matters very very wrong.
  • Sandpit said:

    I went into the wrong profession.

    A company owned by a friend of the Unite leader Len McCluskey has been paid £95 million by the union for a construction project that was initially supposed to cost £7 million, it is revealed today.

    The Flanagan Group received the money for its work as primary contractor on the building of a national conference centre and hotel in Birmingham for Unite, Britain’s most powerful trade union.

    Further evidence of the spiralling cost of Unite’s flagship development emerged on the eve of a crisis meeting at which the union’s ruling council will receive a report on the financing of the complex.

    Questions are likely to be asked about how contracts were awarded and the level of diligence and scrutiny that was applied to the prices charged by contractors throughout the four-year build.

    It is thought that Flanagan’s overall profit from the project will be more than £15 million. Work began in 2016 and was finally completed last year, significantly late and over budget.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/friend-of-unite-leader-was-paid-95m-for-project-estimated-to-cost-7m-hvcrwv5n2

    How the hell is a trade union spending £95m on building a conference centre and hotel in the first place?
    Would this shock you?

    Unite said the Birmingham contract was awarded to Flanagan after the “strictest competitive tendering process” but has declined to say whether other companies were given a chance to bid for the work.

    A union spokesman said that Mr McCluskey, Unite’s general secretary, played no role in the union’s tendering process and has no oversight of the costings of tendered construction contracts.

    The Times revealed this month that Flanagan was one of several companies under criminal investigation in a corruption inquiry over the sale of council-owned land in Merseyside.

    Paul Flanagan, 57, the head of the company, was arrested last year on suspicion of bribery in connection with the same inquiry.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9154171/Liverpool-building-firm-police-bribery-corruption-probe.html
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What should they have written down instead?
    n.m. [or whatever the German equivalent is]
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What should they have written down instead?
    N/A (or, rather, the German equivalent).
    n.m. please.

    Big difference between not applicable and not meaningful!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
    so this doesn't refer to supplies destined (originally intended) for the UK?
    That's the point of contention. The EU are arguing that the UK is being supplied with vaccines belonging to the EU. AZN deny this.
    Interesting. I don't see how they or anyone can confuse "Member State" with "no longer Member State".

    If the contracts were signed between the UK and AZN then there is no way the EU, according to that extract, would have any claims, by its own admission.

    The EU doesn't just draft things willy-nilly. So I'm wondering if this is nothing to do with UK supplies and the media et al have conflated it as being so, or whether the EU somehow thinks that we qualify as a Member State.
  • OTOH, we don't seem to be ramping up the jabs, do we? Rather ramping down, if anything. Presumably supply disruptions.

    I am sure you are right but more and more people are saying they have been vaccinated right across the UK
    Yes. Maybe there is some explanation related to the groups being vaccinated, for example perhaps they have now largely completed vaccinating NHS staff? It would be nice to know a bit more.
    I think there are supply issues, but i found out today some of my extended family have appointments for next week and they are in the lowest category 4, so I have to presume in their areas they have got through all the rest
    Yes, lots of reports like that. I've just heard from a friend in London who is 70 that he was vaccinated last week, and his partner who is under 70 was jabbed yesterday. OTOH around me in Sussex I think they are still working through the 75+ groups.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Looks like the government may have damaged the chances of British clubs winning the Champions League/Europa League.

    Arsenal are exploring alternative venues for their Europa League last-32 tie with Benfica, which looks unlikely to be played in England or Portugal given strict Covid-19 quarantine regulations.

    The UK government has placed Portugal on a “red list” for international travel this month, meaning anyone arriving in the UK from that country is required to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days. That is obviously impractical for Arsenal when they return from the first leg, scheduled to take place in Lisbon on 18 February, and similarly for Benfica’s hopes of playing at the Emirates a week later.

    Previously in the pandemic, elite sports players have been granted an exemption to quarantine rules. However, the UK government has no plans to allow one this time given the gravity of the public health situation and its stance is that, to avoid the period of self-isolation, the tie will have to take place in a country to which movement is less limited.

    Arsenal are understood to have made preliminary contact with other national associations about the possibility of playing on their territory, although they still hope to find a resolution that maintains the status quo. The government is mindful of the volume of cross-continental football to be played in February and March, when a busy international break takes place and accepts the Covid-19 picture could change quickly. There is little appetite, though, to make further exceptions for football and the clubs face a race against time to find a new venue.

    Uefa permits such a switch under a set of special rules for Covid-19 conditions it created for this season’s tournaments. It is incumbent on the home club to find a location for each leg under those regulations, although discussions between Arsenal and Benfica are likely to be fluid. Arsenal remain in dialogue with the Football Association and Premier League, as well as the department for digital, culture, media and sport.


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/28/arsenal-venue-europa-league-tie-benfica-covid-travel-restrictions

    Given the poor vaccine rollouts across the EU I suspect England & Scotland will not be hosting any Euro 2020 matches either.

    I think your conclusion might be 100% wrong. U.K. might be the only place available to host matches, if the pandemic continues across the continent as we all get vaccinated.

    Subject to all the teams quarantining properly before the start of the tournament, of course.

    (F1 could be screwed as well, sounds like they’re going to have to send teams away for a couple of months at a time, then rotate them, rather than have people keep travelling back and forth between races).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Looks like the government may have damaged the chances of British clubs winning the Champions League/Europa League.

    Arsenal are exploring alternative venues for their Europa League last-32 tie with Benfica, which looks unlikely to be played in England or Portugal given strict Covid-19 quarantine regulations.

    The UK government has placed Portugal on a “red list” for international travel this month, meaning anyone arriving in the UK from that country is required to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days. That is obviously impractical for Arsenal when they return from the first leg, scheduled to take place in Lisbon on 18 February, and similarly for Benfica’s hopes of playing at the Emirates a week later.

    Previously in the pandemic, elite sports players have been granted an exemption to quarantine rules. However, the UK government has no plans to allow one this time given the gravity of the public health situation and its stance is that, to avoid the period of self-isolation, the tie will have to take place in a country to which movement is less limited.

    Arsenal are understood to have made preliminary contact with other national associations about the possibility of playing on their territory, although they still hope to find a resolution that maintains the status quo. The government is mindful of the volume of cross-continental football to be played in February and March, when a busy international break takes place and accepts the Covid-19 picture could change quickly. There is little appetite, though, to make further exceptions for football and the clubs face a race against time to find a new venue.

    Uefa permits such a switch under a set of special rules for Covid-19 conditions it created for this season’s tournaments. It is incumbent on the home club to find a location for each leg under those regulations, although discussions between Arsenal and Benfica are likely to be fluid. Arsenal remain in dialogue with the Football Association and Premier League, as well as the department for digital, culture, media and sport.


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/28/arsenal-venue-europa-league-tie-benfica-covid-travel-restrictions

    Given the poor vaccine rollouts across the EU I suspect England & Scotland will not be hosting any Euro 2020 matches either.

    Surely we should host all of them given that we may be able to have crowds by then?
    But we're going to be insisting the teams quarantine for ten days, UEFA wants to ensure host countries give elite sports people an exemption for Euro 2020.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:
    Conservatives stretching the twig of diversity to melting point.....
    Surely a twig burns not melts?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Well if they put a ban on vaccine export I'd happily change my mind. Ultimately the EU is to blame but its the citizens that will suffer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,450
    edited January 2021
    Also, it isn't at the moment about individuals...it is about the country as a whole. It would be lovely to give everybody something that is 99% effective and we had limitless supplies. We don't and thus the approach is to try and reduce covid across the whole community.

    The eggheads have made it clear they think this is round 1 of many, not the end.

    I woul8 be surprised if come November, we are going back around with a new vaccine to protect against the mutant variants. AZN said they are already working on this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Yes, which is why the MHRA and other regulators (including the EMA as well from what we can see) have approved it for all age groups. In a lockdown the downside risk of giving people a vaccine with low efficacy is tiny, it only becomes magnified if people think it proffers high levels of protection and lockdown is ended on that basis, but that isn't what has happened. In fact the 12 week policy ensures that we will stay in some form of lockdown until the middle of April IMO as second doses will need to be given the top priority groups before the NHS is relieved from any future pressure of caring for COVID patients.

    By then we will know if it is effective, if it isn't they can all be redone with Novavax or J&J assuming they have decent efficacy too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Well if they put a ban on vaccine export I'd happily change my mind. Ultimately the EU is to blame but its the citizens that will suffer.
    According to the interview with the AZN CEO, using output from the British plants in Europe was planned, but "later".

    Yes - the definition of "later" would be useful.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,353
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:
    Conservatives stretching the twig of diversity to melting point.....
    Surely a twig burns not melts?
    Adapted from Brass Eye: "THE STRETCHED TWIG OF PEACE IS AT MELTING POINT"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,353

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like the government may have damaged the chances of British clubs winning the Champions League/Europa League.

    Arsenal are exploring alternative venues for their Europa League last-32 tie with Benfica, which looks unlikely to be played in England or Portugal given strict Covid-19 quarantine regulations.

    The UK government has placed Portugal on a “red list” for international travel this month, meaning anyone arriving in the UK from that country is required to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days. That is obviously impractical for Arsenal when they return from the first leg, scheduled to take place in Lisbon on 18 February, and similarly for Benfica’s hopes of playing at the Emirates a week later.

    Previously in the pandemic, elite sports players have been granted an exemption to quarantine rules. However, the UK government has no plans to allow one this time given the gravity of the public health situation and its stance is that, to avoid the period of self-isolation, the tie will have to take place in a country to which movement is less limited.

    Arsenal are understood to have made preliminary contact with other national associations about the possibility of playing on their territory, although they still hope to find a resolution that maintains the status quo. The government is mindful of the volume of cross-continental football to be played in February and March, when a busy international break takes place and accepts the Covid-19 picture could change quickly. There is little appetite, though, to make further exceptions for football and the clubs face a race against time to find a new venue.

    Uefa permits such a switch under a set of special rules for Covid-19 conditions it created for this season’s tournaments. It is incumbent on the home club to find a location for each leg under those regulations, although discussions between Arsenal and Benfica are likely to be fluid. Arsenal remain in dialogue with the Football Association and Premier League, as well as the department for digital, culture, media and sport.


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/28/arsenal-venue-europa-league-tie-benfica-covid-travel-restrictions

    Given the poor vaccine rollouts across the EU I suspect England & Scotland will not be hosting any Euro 2020 matches either.

    Surely we should host all of them given that we may be able to have crowds by then?
    But we're going to be insisting the teams quarantine for ten days, UEFA wants to ensure host countries give elite sports people an exemption for Euro 2020.
    Could we instead insist Teams quarantines for ten days?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,353
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
    so this doesn't refer to supplies destined (originally intended) for the UK?
    That's the point of contention. The EU are arguing that the UK is being supplied with vaccines belonging to the EU. AZN deny this.
    Interesting. I don't see how they or anyone can confuse "Member State" with "no longer Member State".

    If the contracts were signed between the UK and AZN then there is no way the EU, according to that extract, would have any claims, by its own admission.

    The EU doesn't just draft things willy-nilly. So I'm wondering if this is nothing to do with UK supplies and the media et al have conflated it as being so, or whether the EU somehow thinks that we qualify as a Member State.
    You can check out, but.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MaxPB said:

    Can we charge Nicola Sturgeon with treason? She's a risk to Scotland's health.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of undermining efforts to prevent the European Union from taking UK-bound vaccines by threatening to publish details of confidential supplies.

    The UK government wants to keep secret how many doses are being delivered to avoid aggravating tensions with other nations struggling to secure vaccines.

    The row with the European Commission and Astrazeneca over reduced deliveries, thought to total between 60 to 75 million doses, has shown the acute sensitivity of the issue. The commission suspects Astrazeneca of giving Britain preferential treatment and ordered inspections of its Belgium plant to check its claim that there was a production problem.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeon-threatens-to-publish-supply-data-in-eu-astrazeneca-vaccine-row-9t5c2xsx8

    Her release of that data was ill advised, I don't understand why anyone thought it was a good idea.
    She's deliberately confusing two sets of data - "projected doses" and "doses available".

    "Projected doses" are the ones which might upset the EU - and are likely to change in any case.

    "Doses available" is stuff that is already here, available for the Scottish government to draw upon overnight.

    The problem is the gap in Scotland between "Doses available" and "Doses injected" - and that's what she's trying to muddle & obscure.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,822
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
    so this doesn't refer to supplies destined (originally intended) for the UK?
    That's the point of contention. The EU are arguing that the UK is being supplied with vaccines belonging to the EU. AZN deny this.
    Interesting. I don't see how they or anyone can confuse "Member State" with "no longer Member State".

    If the contracts were signed between the UK and AZN then there is no way the EU, according to that extract, would have any claims, by its own admission.

    The EU doesn't just draft things willy-nilly. So I'm wondering if this is nothing to do with UK supplies and the media et al have conflated it as being so, or whether the EU somehow thinks that we qualify as a Member State.
    They aren't confusing anything. There are two contracts with AZN that are relevant here. The one they signed with the UK and the one with the EU. The EU are claiming that AZN are using supplies intended for the EU to fulfill the UK order. AZN deny this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Originally intended for our Member States".

    Well. Does that or does that not include the UK, given that we were a de facto Member State but of course not a Member State at time of contract signature.
    I'm guessing it refers to the current member states. The jabs procured through that scheme were never intended for the UK.
    so this doesn't refer to supplies destined (originally intended) for the UK?
    That's the point of contention. The EU are arguing that the UK is being supplied with vaccines belonging to the EU. AZN deny this.
    Interesting. I don't see how they or anyone can confuse "Member State" with "no longer Member State".

    If the contracts were signed between the UK and AZN then there is no way the EU, according to that extract, would have any claims, by its own admission.

    The EU doesn't just draft things willy-nilly. So I'm wondering if this is nothing to do with UK supplies and the media et al have conflated it as being so, or whether the EU somehow thinks that we qualify as a Member State.
    We ceased being a member state on the 31st of January at 11pm UK time, difficult to see how they could be pushing that angle.

    Use Occam's razor, what is the most likely thing that is causing these ructions?
  • On topic. I genuinely don't believe the EU would be that dumb. For all that I wanted Britain out, I don't in anyway underrate the bureaucrats in Brussels. Just look at the way they ran rings around May and Johnson (and Cameron before that).

    I think there is a fair bit of political posturing by those in the Commission who can't forget how to be politicians but I also suspect that calmer heads in the bureaucracy will eventually prevail.

    What Johnson needs to do is exactly what he has been doing which is play it down, make conciliatory and neutral noises and keep his cabinet and MPs in line. For once he is on the right side of this argument and he can stay there by making sure it is between AZ and the EU and not between the UK and the EU.

    Good post Richard. I know we disagree of the B word, but I think you are absolutely right here. The EU don't have reason to care much about their image in the UK (some may argue they never did), so their posturing is for consumption in the EU27. The reality is that the pharma industry isn't well liked (which I think is undeserved) and the UK isn't exactly popular with many continentals. Their position is therefore unlikely to be politically damaging for their domestic audience. It is a spat and it will pass, and as you say, the right position for our government is to let it blow over
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Well if they put a ban on vaccine export I'd happily change my mind. Ultimately the EU is to blame but its the citizens that will suffer.
    According to the interview with the AZN CEO, using output from the British plants in Europe was planned, but "later".

    Yes - the definition of "later" would be useful.
    He said the definition of "later" was after 100m doses delivered to the UK government or when the UK government agrees to allow AZ to fulfil other contracts with that supply. I expect the latter is why the EU are threatening export bans of the Pfizer vaccine, it's intended to be a shot across the bows of Boris to agree to allow AZ to use UK supply to help the EU shortfall. It's never going to happen because the UK supply is already coming up short vs what we're supposed to be getting from it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    FPT

    There was a design for a nuclear powered plane that never made it off the ground...

    Actually for a truly mad idea have a look a project Orion. Not just nuclear propulsion, but propulsion by nuclear bombs.

    They tried out some crazy ideas in the Cold War. Shame they didn't actually carry through that one (afaik)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    MaxPB said:

    Can we charge Nicola Sturgeon with treason? She's a risk to Scotland's health.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of undermining efforts to prevent the European Union from taking UK-bound vaccines by threatening to publish details of confidential supplies.

    The UK government wants to keep secret how many doses are being delivered to avoid aggravating tensions with other nations struggling to secure vaccines.

    The row with the European Commission and Astrazeneca over reduced deliveries, thought to total between 60 to 75 million doses, has shown the acute sensitivity of the issue. The commission suspects Astrazeneca of giving Britain preferential treatment and ordered inspections of its Belgium plant to check its claim that there was a production problem.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeon-threatens-to-publish-supply-data-in-eu-astrazeneca-vaccine-row-9t5c2xsx8

    Her release of that data was ill advised, I don't understand why anyone thought it was a good idea.
    She's deliberately confusing two sets of data - "projected doses" and "doses available".

    "Projected doses" are the ones which might upset the EU - and are likely to change in any case.

    "Doses available" is stuff that is already here, available for the Scottish government to draw upon overnight.

    The problem is the gap in Scotland between "Doses available" and "Doses injected" - and that's what she's trying to muddle & obscure.
    Can’t the U.K. gov simply categorise all numbers relating to vaccine contracts and deliveries as classified information, so that anyone deliberately discussing them is guilty of a serious breach of the Official Secrets Act?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    I have decided to form the PB Rifles, modelled on the Artists Rifles, for the forthcoming actual vaccine war with Brussels.

    Form an orderly line. I promise rations of excellent wine


    https://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/artists-artists-rifles
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like the government may have damaged the chances of British clubs winning the Champions League/Europa League.

    Arsenal are exploring alternative venues for their Europa League last-32 tie with Benfica, which looks unlikely to be played in England or Portugal given strict Covid-19 quarantine regulations.

    The UK government has placed Portugal on a “red list” for international travel this month, meaning anyone arriving in the UK from that country is required to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days. That is obviously impractical for Arsenal when they return from the first leg, scheduled to take place in Lisbon on 18 February, and similarly for Benfica’s hopes of playing at the Emirates a week later.

    Previously in the pandemic, elite sports players have been granted an exemption to quarantine rules. However, the UK government has no plans to allow one this time given the gravity of the public health situation and its stance is that, to avoid the period of self-isolation, the tie will have to take place in a country to which movement is less limited.

    Arsenal are understood to have made preliminary contact with other national associations about the possibility of playing on their territory, although they still hope to find a resolution that maintains the status quo. The government is mindful of the volume of cross-continental football to be played in February and March, when a busy international break takes place and accepts the Covid-19 picture could change quickly. There is little appetite, though, to make further exceptions for football and the clubs face a race against time to find a new venue.

    Uefa permits such a switch under a set of special rules for Covid-19 conditions it created for this season’s tournaments. It is incumbent on the home club to find a location for each leg under those regulations, although discussions between Arsenal and Benfica are likely to be fluid. Arsenal remain in dialogue with the Football Association and Premier League, as well as the department for digital, culture, media and sport.


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/28/arsenal-venue-europa-league-tie-benfica-covid-travel-restrictions

    Given the poor vaccine rollouts across the EU I suspect England & Scotland will not be hosting any Euro 2020 matches either.

    Surely we should host all of them given that we may be able to have crowds by then?
    But we're going to be insisting the teams quarantine for ten days, UEFA wants to ensure host countries give elite sports people an exemption for Euro 2020.
    Could we instead insist Teams quarantines for ten days?
    Yeah, I don't understand, get them to quarantine for ten days.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    RobD said:

    They've gone insane, it's the only possible explanation.
    Full metal Cartman....
    Francis are you ok? That's by my count the SIXTH time you've posted that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    When did Harrow East Centre get moved to Scotland, surely the Tories know where that is and it is not Scotland as far as I know.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not to be pedantic or anything but I think the picture is from an earlier visit. The PCN referred to is indeed in Harrow, north London (I did wonder if there was a Harrow, Scotland, but apparently not).

    Not at all. Pedantry is part of the life-blood of PB.
    Iifeblood doesn't have a hyphen.
    .. hang on. Just checked. It does, at least in Scotland and Scrabble (Chambers Dictionary).
    How do you propose to play a hyphen in Scrabble? Or are we into De Facto and De Jure Scrabble letters?

    Just asking.

    (Blanks can only be a letter)
    Life-blood is not legal in Scrabble, because of the hyphen. Such pedantry is essential to the game, after all.
  • kle4 said:

    FPT

    There was a design for a nuclear powered plane that never made it off the ground...

    Actually for a truly mad idea have a look a project Orion. Not just nuclear propulsion, but propulsion by nuclear bombs.

    They tried out some crazy ideas in the Cold War. Shame they didn't actually carry through that one (afaik)
    In 1966 the Russians used a nuke to kill a gas blowout

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S57Xq03njsc
  • Boris PR team getting slack, no flags in that photo....

    I am sure it has already been discussed on here, but while I have no prob with people flying the flag, it is a bit weird how these government ministers have flags in their studies. I suppose it does to some extent distract one's attention as to how tasteless Michael Gove's curtains are!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    On topic. I genuinely don't believe the EU would be that dumb. For all that I wanted Britain out, I don't in anyway underrate the bureaucrats in Brussels. Just look at the way they ran rings around May and Johnson (and Cameron before that).

    I think there is a fair bit of political posturing by those in the Commission who can't forget how to be politicians but I also suspect that calmer heads in the bureaucracy will eventually prevail.

    What Johnson needs to do is exactly what he has been doing which is play it down, make conciliatory and neutral noises and keep his cabinet and MPs in line. For once he is on the right side of this argument and he can stay there by making sure it is between AZ and the EU and not between the UK and the EU.

    Good post Richard. I know we disagree of the B word, but I think you are absolutely right here. The EU don't have reason to care much about their image in the UK (some may argue they never did), so their posturing is for consumption in the EU27. The reality is that the pharma industry isn't well liked (which I think is undeserved) and the UK isn't exactly popular with many continentals. Their position is therefore unlikely to be politically damaging for their domestic audience. It is a spat and it will pass, and as you say, the right position for our government is to let it blow over
    Yes, I agree with this to some degree. The threats of export bans just don't seem realistic, but it's just awful rhetoric and blame shifting. The UK government is definitely taking the right stance, just ignore it and let it burn itself out after a few days. Let AZ and the EU sort it out in the courts if they must. All the while Kwasi should be getting every pharma CEO on the phone. This is going to happen again with Novavax which has already commenced manufacturing in the UK with an integrated UK supply chain and it will be just as unedifying.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Leon said:

    I have decided to form the PB Rifles, modelled on the Artists Rifles, for the forthcoming actual vaccine war with Brussels.

    Form an orderly line. I promise rations of excellent wine


    https://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/artists-artists-rifles

    A question. Which famous Hollywood actor played the character (from a book by a famous novelist)... said character was the protagonist in another book by the same author, in which a (perhaps the) principle character was in the Artists Rifles?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,822
    Bit of a PB meme to say how good Matt is, isn't it?
  • MaxPB said:

    On topic. I genuinely don't believe the EU would be that dumb. For all that I wanted Britain out, I don't in anyway underrate the bureaucrats in Brussels. Just look at the way they ran rings around May and Johnson (and Cameron before that).

    I think there is a fair bit of political posturing by those in the Commission who can't forget how to be politicians but I also suspect that calmer heads in the bureaucracy will eventually prevail.

    What Johnson needs to do is exactly what he has been doing which is play it down, make conciliatory and neutral noises and keep his cabinet and MPs in line. For once he is on the right side of this argument and he can stay there by making sure it is between AZ and the EU and not between the UK and the EU.

    Good post Richard. I know we disagree of the B word, but I think you are absolutely right here. The EU don't have reason to care much about their image in the UK (some may argue they never did), so their posturing is for consumption in the EU27. The reality is that the pharma industry isn't well liked (which I think is undeserved) and the UK isn't exactly popular with many continentals. Their position is therefore unlikely to be politically damaging for their domestic audience. It is a spat and it will pass, and as you say, the right position for our government is to let it blow over
    Yes, I agree with this to some degree. The threats of export bans just don't seem realistic, but it's just awful rhetoric and blame shifting. The UK government is definitely taking the right stance, just ignore it and let it burn itself out after a few days. Let AZ and the EU sort it out in the courts if they must. All the while Kwasi should be getting every pharma CEO on the phone. This is going to happen again with Novavax which has already commenced manufacturing in the UK with an integrated UK supply chain and it will be just as unedifying.
    Much as some may hope it, pharma CEOs wont be too concerned about this. They deal with political pressure and willy waving from governments, including our own, all the time.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,822

    MaxPB said:

    On topic. I genuinely don't believe the EU would be that dumb. For all that I wanted Britain out, I don't in anyway underrate the bureaucrats in Brussels. Just look at the way they ran rings around May and Johnson (and Cameron before that).

    I think there is a fair bit of political posturing by those in the Commission who can't forget how to be politicians but I also suspect that calmer heads in the bureaucracy will eventually prevail.

    What Johnson needs to do is exactly what he has been doing which is play it down, make conciliatory and neutral noises and keep his cabinet and MPs in line. For once he is on the right side of this argument and he can stay there by making sure it is between AZ and the EU and not between the UK and the EU.

    Good post Richard. I know we disagree of the B word, but I think you are absolutely right here. The EU don't have reason to care much about their image in the UK (some may argue they never did), so their posturing is for consumption in the EU27. The reality is that the pharma industry isn't well liked (which I think is undeserved) and the UK isn't exactly popular with many continentals. Their position is therefore unlikely to be politically damaging for their domestic audience. It is a spat and it will pass, and as you say, the right position for our government is to let it blow over
    Yes, I agree with this to some degree. The threats of export bans just don't seem realistic, but it's just awful rhetoric and blame shifting. The UK government is definitely taking the right stance, just ignore it and let it burn itself out after a few days. Let AZ and the EU sort it out in the courts if they must. All the while Kwasi should be getting every pharma CEO on the phone. This is going to happen again with Novavax which has already commenced manufacturing in the UK with an integrated UK supply chain and it will be just as unedifying.
    Much as some may hope it, pharma CEOs wont be too concerned about this. They deal with political pressure and willy waving from governments, including our own, all the time.
    Including export bans? I wonder how the Pfizer CEO feels, or the Israeli government for that matter.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    RobD said:

    Bit of a PB meme to say how good Matt is, isn't it?
    To be against Matt is to be against life.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Brom said:

    gealbhan said:

    “ Downing Street has refused to rule out the possibility of the UK sending vaccine supplies to the EU once the most vulnerable people in the UK have been vaccinated, assuming the timetable to vaccinate other adults by September stays on track. “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/28/uk-covid-live-coronavirus-boris-johnson-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-vaccine-travel-quarantine-latest-updates

    Do it Boris. Don’t listen to the rabid anti Christian ravers on PB. Their only religion is frothed up hatred of EU, that’s not Brexit is it?

    Once vulnerable people in UK have been jabbed, share it Boris.

    Keep your religion in your church please.

    I think you'll find everyone here said that the EU getting doses once everyone in the UK has had it would be fair enough. You were saying to do it before vaccinations here are completed.
    Agreed. Once our over 60s and potentially then key workers are done I would understand if vaccines for the likes of myself were diverted to help priority groups in Europe.
    When I said completed I meant completed. Everyone done.
    Insisting on everyone in one country being done before the vulnerable elsewhere is exactly the sort of vaccine nationalism that will prolong the pandemic.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    kle4 said:

    FPT

    There was a design for a nuclear powered plane that never made it off the ground...

    Actually for a truly mad idea have a look a project Orion. Not just nuclear propulsion, but propulsion by nuclear bombs.

    They tried out some crazy ideas in the Cold War. Shame they didn't actually carry through that one (afaik)
    In 1966 the Russians used a nuke to kill a gas blowout

    tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S57Xq03njsc
    Mad Russkies!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    @Ishmael_X FPT

    Sorry just saw your question on the ethical difference between covered short selling and naked short selling.

    From a definition perspective, "naked short selling" is the sale of shares which cannot be proved to exist - i.e. (usually) where the short interest is >100% of the stock.

    That's illegal. Of course the law has nothing to do with ethics, but it's worth pointing out.

    On the difference between shorting when you have borrowed the stock and shorting when you haven't is one of risk. Usually the big institutions lend stock and earn an income from it. If you have to close your short then they will typically extend the contract if you can't buy in the market because they have an interest in an orderly market. (This doesn't mean they will allow you to make a profit if you mess up, but they won't drive you into bankruptcy).

    When you short without having borrowed you are taking much more risk because you are exposed to a short squeeze.

    The issues I have with this situation are:

    (a) Naked shorting is illegal
    (b) The hedge funds have been stupid and jumped on a bandwagon
    (c) Retail investors coordinating on a short squeeze are - in my view - engaging in market abuse

    No body comes out of this well.

    Someone else suggested it earlier, but I reckon the company should do a capital raise. But I doubt that any credible underwriters will run it for them.

    Hey Charles - as per my response earlier (not 100% sure the retail guys were pumping) here is an interesting article (which of course agrees with my point!).

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-01-26/will-wallstreetbets-face-sec-scrutiny-after-gamestop-rally-kke9fpzq

    (For the third time so huge apols!)
    Thanks both, v illuminating.
This discussion has been closed.