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Cyclefree’s 2020 Awards – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,679
    FF43 said:

    Had this thread been posted here? The situation described is absolutely shocking...

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1344242189057089539

    Not quite that bad on my patch, but management expect it to get worse next week. The first weeks of Jan are usually the most busy, but add in covid patients occupying 30%+ of the beds and its not a happy place.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    dixiedean said:

    Fun fact @Philip_Thompson, there hasn't been a 0-0 Newcastle Liverpool match since 1974, the year before the UK joined the EU.

    Man U can go top by beating Villa 10-0 on Friday. Just saying.
    Earlier that day, the mighty EFC can pull within a point of the top from the same number of games, by beating West Ham at home.
    We've 4 wins on the trot and coming off a huge 6 days rest.
    It's turning into a fascinating season at the top.
    Tottenham, Liverpool, Leicester, Southampton, Everton, Chelsea and Arsenal have all been top this season already.

    What's the highest number of teams that have topped the table during a season, I wonder?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    FF43 said:

    Had this thread been posted here? The situation described is absolutely shocking...

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1344242189057089539

    PTSD amongst nurses, especially the younger ones, is something I have heard anecdotal reports about.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    BTW Cyclefree an excellent header. You are always a good writer, sometimes very good, but often you lapse into prolixity.

    This is pointed, witty, clever, and just the right length. Appreciated

    Thank you.

    In terms of word length it is in fact a bit longer than other recent ones. But style can also make something seem longer or shorter - perhaps crisper is the better word.

    But thanks. I enjoyed writing it.

    Writing has been one of my few highlights this year.
    You're often an excellent writer. Of all the header-writers on PB I would say you and Mr Meeks (much as I often disagree with you both) are the ones who at first glance, could make a go of it professionally. But, yes, crispness really is a virtue.

    Always remember the words of Blaise Pascal: "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."

    Happy New Year! x
    Wise advice.

    Trying to earn money from my writing is my ambition for next year. Thank you for your encouragement. You have no idea how much it means to me.

    Happy New Year to you too! X
    Just be sure to get paid by the word...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    So, today the government has:

    - changed the tier restrictions
    - changed the timetable for many primary and all secondary pupils and university students resuming classes
    - changed the vaccine rollout plans and timetable

    Not bad for a single day.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    Scott_xP said:
    There is a lot of truth in those assertions but there are also some misconceptions.

    I would certainly agree that the biggest problem that the UK has had in the negotiations is that we had no clear idea of where we intended to finish. Powell is wrong to say that we spent out first 2 years negotiating with ourselves, in many ways we are still doing it today. Its like the US and the Vietnam war or the American war of independence where there was considerable disagreement in this country about whether we were doing the right thing. As an American President once said, a house divided amongst itself cannot stand. Nor can a negotiating team.

    The lack of a consensus of where we wanted to finish undermined our negotiating stance. This was most painfully the case in the Remainer Parliament where there were no shortage of willing fools who were all too keen to defeat our PM and undermine our stance. It happened repeatedly. I am not sure that I would focus particularly on the commencement of the Article 50 process: it was and remains a problem to this day.

    I would agree with Powell that a lot of this arose from the narrow win in the referendum itself and the weaknesses of a referendum campaign where neither side is the government responsible for implementing what they had promised. Referendums are not a good idea.

    I would not agree that the relative size of the EU and the UK is particularly material. The default assumption that the EU would get its way because it is bigger has no basis in fact but it seems to have influenced the thinking of too many of our civil servants throughout the process.

    At the end of the day the EU continues to sell us £80bn a year more goods than we sell them. Frictionless trade is to their advantage, not ours. Agreeing a FTA for goods alone is undoubtedly a significant failure for the UK. It is not in our interests, it is in theirs. We should not have agreed a deal that did not include services. We have failed to protect our own interests. And I do agree that we need to learn from that.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,210
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    BTW Cyclefree an excellent header. You are always a good writer, sometimes very good, but often you lapse into prolixity.

    This is pointed, witty, clever, and just the right length. Appreciated

    Thank you.

    In terms of word length it is in fact a bit longer than other recent ones. But style can also make something seem longer or shorter - perhaps crisper is the better word.

    But thanks. I enjoyed writing it.

    Writing has been one of my few highlights this year.
    You're often an excellent writer. Of all the header-writers on PB I would say you and Mr Meeks (much as I often disagree with you both) are the ones who at first glance, could make a go of it professionally. But, yes, crispness really is a virtue.

    Always remember the words of Blaise Pascal: "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."

    Happy New Year! x
    Wise advice.

    Trying to earn money from my writing is my ambition for next year. Thank you for your encouragement. You have no idea how much it means to me.

    Happy New Year to you too! X
    Just be sure to get paid by the word...
    LoL
    😁
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Margaret Thatcher may have been showing the ‘first signs of dementia’ during her final year as prime minister, Ken Clarke has claimed.

    The Tory grandee, who served in Mrs Thatcher’s Cabinet, said the prime minister’s personality ‘rapidly changed’ towards the end of her tenure, leading him to develop the ‘theory’ that she was displaying early symptoms of the condition.
    Given Clarke vehemently opposed Thatcher on some questions it is hardly surprising he seeks to claim her views were based on illness. It is however thoroughly ungentlemanly of him.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,074
    DavidL said:

    At the end of the day the EU continues to sell us £80bn a year more goods than we sell them. Frictionless trade is to their advantage, not ours.

    So trade only benefits the seller?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    Pornhub premium :D
  • Options
    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?
  • Options

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
    If onl
    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:

    "Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."

    And:

    "Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.

    And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."

    From:

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
    And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.

    But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.

    We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.

    It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
    We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
    Something I argued for continuously but was told again and again by the Europhiles wasn't possible.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Sure.
    The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
    Philosophically it was logical, coherent and defensible (local government provides services and charges a flat fee while redistribution should be a matter for national government).

    Politically it was... foolish
    Yes, I can see why you would want to pay the same as your cleaner.

    Hard to see why the cleaner objected isn't it?
    Which is why it was politically foolish

    However I would argue that someone collecting the rubbish costs the same per household and therefore should cost the beneficiaries the same.

    Redistribution is better handled through income and other taxes designed for that purpose than by randomly increasing other taxes
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:

    "Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."

    And:

    "Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.

    And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."

    From:

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
    Shame the free market in services never happened then
    Most services - whether inside the EU or not - are completely free from tariffs or regulation. PR, application development, virtual assistants, call centres, etc., all happily get sold around the world without supranational bodies getting involved.

    Where there is regulation that restricts cross border trade it tends to be in specific professional services, particularly law.

    But then again, we don't really have a single market in lawyers in the UK either, as - AFIUI, and I could be wrong - Scottish Advocates and English Barristers are not able perform each others' roles.
    the insurance people I speak to find it easier to expand in the US than in Europe
  • Options

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    slade said:

    Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?

    No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
    It sounds intuitively BS.

    Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
    It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
    It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
    LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
    Freedom to control our own laws.
    Freedom to control our own economy.
    Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines.
    Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer.
    Oh and some fish.
    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.

    Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.

    like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.

    It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.

    like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.

    The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated?
    representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy.
    Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.

    Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
    Utter bollocks from start to finish.
    Happily Brexit is now settled so we will never have to have such debates. And with our relationship with the EU now absolutely settled for life we can move on.

    I mean, imagine if we'd signed a deal where we have the right to diverge from the EU but only by volunteering to impose tariffs and quotas. That would be a special kind of stupid.
    Except it is what happens in all FTAs. Try again.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,285
    edited December 2020

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Margaret Thatcher may have been showing the ‘first signs of dementia’ during her final year as prime minister, Ken Clarke has claimed.

    The Tory grandee, who served in Mrs Thatcher’s Cabinet, said the prime minister’s personality ‘rapidly changed’ towards the end of her tenure, leading him to develop the ‘theory’ that she was displaying early symptoms of the condition.
    Given Clarke vehemently opposed Thatcher on some questions it is hardly surprising he seeks to claim her views were based on illness. It is however thoroughly ungentlemanly of him.
    No worse than tons of the comments made here about Biden.

    From an academic paper written by David Owen and a US psychiatrist:

    After her third General Election victory in 1987, she tried to impose the unpopular poll tax. She saw German reunification in 1989 in cataclysmic terms as a potential Fourth Reich and told George Bush Sr ‘if we are not careful the Germans will get in peace what Hitler couldn’t get in the war’ (Bush and Scowcroft, 1998). She also began to refer to herself in the third person ‘We have become a grandmother’. By 1990 her own party’s MPs forced her to resign after displaying raw hubris in her handling of the European Union and bawling in the House of Commons, ‘No, no, no’ (Young, 1998).

    Separately, and further: Sir John Major says he thinks Margaret Thatcher’s dementia was behind her fierce criticism of him while he was PM. ‘She was ill and bored and out of government’ and it wasn’t ‘the Thatcher I knew‘
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2020

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    At this rate they should be have COVID cracked by the summer...of 2099....
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,679

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
    If onl
    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:

    "Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."

    And:

    "Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.

    And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."

    From:

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
    And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.

    But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.

    We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.

    It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
    We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
    Something I argued for continuously but was told again and again by the Europhiles wasn't possible.
    And they were right, it wasn't.

    Indeed Brexit seems to be causing Norway to break up the EEA. Soon it will consist of countries with a smaller population than an English county.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,665

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    DavidL said:

    At the end of the day the EU continues to sell us £80bn a year more goods than we sell them. Frictionless trade is to their advantage, not ours.

    So trade only benefits the seller?
    If the trade is profitable then it benefits the seller. The purchaser gets what they want but from a UK plc basis money leaves our system to the benefit of the seller's country. The counterbalance is a capital credit in this country which gives the seller a right to some of our assets. Those assets generate a rental income going forward which risks increasing the deficit.

    Friction in trade encourages import substitution and domestic production. That benefits UK plc even if it is not as convenient for the individual purchaser.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
    If onl
    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:

    "Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."

    And:

    "Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.

    And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."

    From:

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
    And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.

    But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.

    We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.

    It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
    We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
    Something I argued for continuously but was told again and again by the Europhiles wasn't possible.
    And they were right, it wasn't.

    Indeed Brexit seems to be causing Norway to break up the EEA. Soon it will consist of countries with a smaller population than an English county.
    Yes it was. It required us to rejoin EFTA when we left the EU but it was entirely possible and would have suited you far better. But people like you were so busy arguing against the whole concept of Brexit that you were unwilling to even consider reasonable alternatives.
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    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,679
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Sure.
    The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
    Philosophically it was logical, coherent and defensible (local government provides services and charges a flat fee while redistribution should be a matter for national government).

    Politically it was... foolish
    Yes, I can see why you would want to pay the same as your cleaner.

    Hard to see why the cleaner objected isn't it?
    Which is why it was politically foolish

    However I would argue that someone collecting the rubbish costs the same per household and therefore should cost the beneficiaries the same.

    Redistribution is better handled through income and other taxes designed for that purpose than by randomly increasing other taxes
    I fully understand why people with multi million pound properties want to pay the same as a cleaner in a council flat.

    I also see why the cleaners didn't like it, and brought about the defenestration of Thatcher.
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    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Margaret Thatcher may have been showing the ‘first signs of dementia’ during her final year as prime minister, Ken Clarke has claimed.

    The Tory grandee, who served in Mrs Thatcher’s Cabinet, said the prime minister’s personality ‘rapidly changed’ towards the end of her tenure, leading him to develop the ‘theory’ that she was displaying early symptoms of the condition.
    Given Clarke vehemently opposed Thatcher on some questions it is hardly surprising he seeks to claim her views were based on illness. It is however thoroughly ungentlemanly of him.
    No worse than tons of the comments made here about Biden.

    From an academic paper written by David Owen and a US psychiatrist:

    After her third General Election victory in 1987, she tried to impose the unpopular poll tax. She saw German reunification in 1989 in cataclysmic terms as a potential Fourth Reich and told George Bush Sr ‘if we are not careful the Germans will get in peace what Hitler couldn’t get in the war’ (Bush and Scowcroft, 1998). She also began to refer to herself in the third person ‘We have become a grandmother’. By 1990 her own party’s MPs forced her to resign after displaying raw hubris in her handling of the European Union and bawling in the House of Commons, ‘No, no, no’ (Young, 1998).
    And those comments about Biden are poor as well.

    As for the Owen paper, nothing mentioned there is unreasonable except the third person reference which she had been doing since long before 1987.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    rcs1000 said:

    Colorado and California: two states with skiing. Coincidence?
    The virus has gone off-piste?
    Certainly getting America piste-off.....
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,123
    edited December 2020
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,074
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    At the end of the day the EU continues to sell us £80bn a year more goods than we sell them. Frictionless trade is to their advantage, not ours.

    So trade only benefits the seller?
    If the trade is profitable then it benefits the seller. The purchaser gets what they want but from a UK plc basis money leaves our system to the benefit of the seller's country. The counterbalance is a capital credit in this country which gives the seller a right to some of our assets. Those assets generate a rental income going forward which risks increasing the deficit.

    Friction in trade encourages import substitution and domestic production. That benefits UK plc even if it is not as convenient for the individual purchaser.
    Presumably these arguments would apply to trade friction between Scotland and England?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,786
    Makes sense. I'm a little surprised he has accepted it, he could make a powerful message rejecting it.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,786
    Leon said:

    Series 2, Mandalorian - last 3 episodes coming up......

    Is it worth getting Disney+? Serious question. I foresee many weeks indoors coming up
    Depends what your DVD collection is like. A lot of people will own many Disney, Pixar, Marvel and Star Wars movies, so unless you want to binge watch the Simpsons I didn't think it worth it. Plus they make you pay higher than cinema prices to get the movies they release on there instead of the cinema on top of the subscription.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,786
    Not getting back in the Cabinet, so here's a knighthood. Will look good when he moves into narrating audiobooks.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,214

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1344409552452780032

    Another Johnson 'promise" on covid.

    Why does he never ever learn?

    Surely after the massive clusterfuck that was his 'saving xmas' policy you would have thought he would learn.

    Why should he? Johnson gets the initial positive headline and can overcome the disappointment of failing with another future positive headline. The thing is we believe him every time.

    It will be over by (delete as appropriate) September (2020) /Christmas (2020) /Spring (2021)/ Summer (2021)/Christmas (2021).
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    At the end of the day the EU continues to sell us £80bn a year more goods than we sell them. Frictionless trade is to their advantage, not ours.

    So trade only benefits the seller?
    If the trade is profitable then it benefits the seller. The purchaser gets what they want but from a UK plc basis money leaves our system to the benefit of the seller's country. The counterbalance is a capital credit in this country which gives the seller a right to some of our assets. Those assets generate a rental income going forward which risks increasing the deficit.

    Friction in trade encourages import substitution and domestic production. That benefits UK plc even if it is not as convenient for the individual purchaser.
    Presumably these arguments would apply to trade friction between Scotland and England?
    One of the really major problems Scotland would have as an independent country is a serious trade deficit. Obviously that would not have been the case over most of the last 30 years thanks to oil but it is a real issue now. Most of the focus is on the public sector deficit shown by GERS but if anything our trade deficit would be more of an issue undermining any currency we choose to have.

    Whilst within the UK these problems are offset by the fiscal transfers of central government. If that should cease to be the case it will be a problem, yes. Whether Scotland would benefit from friction in trade really would depend on its capacity to increase and substitute production.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Need to stop for a gitane between each one
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Not getting back in the Cabinet, so here's a knighthood. Will look good when he moves into narrating audiobooks.
    Rumours that after seeing that his successor was Braverman he said ‘Fly, you fools’ are still to be confirmed.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,665

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Pulpstar said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Need to stop for a gitane between each one
    ...and a three-hour lunch.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Pulpstar said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Need to stop for a gitane between each one
    ...and a three-hour lunch.
    No doubt it is these tendencies which give the French such a significantly larger productivity than us or is that some mistake?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,816
    So, the e-mailed letters have been coming in from the various childrens'schools and clubs.

    College: letter tomorrow - looks like plan A, a week later
    Secondary: (before Gavin) mocks definitely going ahead w/c 4/1
    Primary: after Gavin - start as planned
    Dance Studios and Gym Classes: Tier 3, happy days, let your kids mix from Saturday (in a COVID secure manner), wahey.

    In their position, of course that's what I'd do, but with schools held back it just feels like the pubs all over again.
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    At least the French have started, what the Dutch are playing at is any bodies guess. No rush, we will start in the second week of January....
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    kle4 said:

    Not getting back in the Cabinet, so here's a knighthood. Will look good when he moves into narrating audiobooks.
    He deserves a knighthood just for his reading of A Visit from St. Nicholas
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    For being genuinely world-beating....
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    edited December 2020

    At least the French have started, what the Dutch are playing at is any bodies guess. No rush, we will start in the second week of January....

    Instead of the break for a gitane, it's a big, fat Moroccan.
    Easy, man. Shlowly does it.

    Edit: More stereotypes available.
    I blame Brexit. I wasn't like this before...
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    Nigelb said:

    For being genuinely world-beating....
    Can't be.
    Everyone knows the PM doesn't recognise really world beating.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Sure.
    The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
    Philosophically it was logical, coherent and defensible (local government provides services and charges a flat fee while redistribution should be a matter for national government).

    Politically it was... foolish
    Yes, I can see why you would want to pay the same as your cleaner.

    Hard to see why the cleaner objected isn't it?
    Which is why it was politically foolish

    However I would argue that someone collecting the rubbish costs the same per household and therefore should cost the beneficiaries the same.

    Redistribution is better handled through income and other taxes designed for that purpose than by randomly increasing other taxes
    I fully understand why people with multi million pound properties want to pay the same as a cleaner in a council flat.

    I also see why the cleaners didn't like it, and brought about the defenestration of Thatcher.
    Charles is a man of strict principles, prominent amongst which is the long term preservation of capital.
    Nothing wrong with that, but it does colour his judgments.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Congratulations to Sir Roger Deakins, sometime Dartmouth resident (well, Kingswear on the other side of the river actually) and remarkable cinematographer.
  • Options

    Congratulations to Sir Roger Deakins, sometime Dartmouth resident (well, Kingswear on the other side of the river actually) and remarkable cinematographer.

    Fantastic. His work with both the Coen brothers and Denis Villeneuve has been just fabulous. Some films you can watch just to see his amazing cinematography.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,577
    edited December 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    Sure.
    The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
    Philosophically it was logical, coherent and defensible (local government provides services and charges a flat fee while redistribution should be a matter for national government).

    Politically it was... foolish
    Yes, I can see why you would want to pay the same as your cleaner.

    Hard to see why the cleaner objected isn't it?
    Which is why it was politically foolish

    However I would argue that someone collecting the rubbish costs the same per household and therefore should cost the beneficiaries the same.

    Redistribution is better handled through income and other taxes designed for that purpose than by randomly increasing other taxes
    I fully understand why people with multi million pound properties want to pay the same as a cleaner in a council flat.

    I also see why the cleaners didn't like it, and brought about the defenestration of Thatcher.
    Charles is a man of strict principles, prominent amongst which is the long term preservation of capital.
    Nothing wrong with that, but it does colour his judgments.
    As mainly a charge for services it is clearly defensible to base it on standard services used, as are supplementary charges for supplementary services if thought appropriate ... such as special collections for household whitegoods, or gardening dustbins for people who have gardens.

    Whether house prices circa 1991 are a suitable comparator is open to a lot of question.

    I think we perhaps need a local income tax. Whether the Lib Dems will divert enough from examining their own entrails to notice the opportunity at a time it may be up for debate is another interesting question.

    I would argue for full VAT on all energy bills, on environmental grounds and to encourage energy efficiency (and saving the planet), but would equally argue for a rebalancing of the benefits system to compensate.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Sadly no award for Mark Francois this year. What a shame!
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,577

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
    I think it is probably wise not to do that yet. Perhaps avoid setting off a daily Chimpanzee's Tea Party in the media.
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    2021, the year of QAnon? The general sure deserved that pardon.

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1343975505381511168?s=20
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Congratulations to Sir Roger Deakins, sometime Dartmouth resident (well, Kingswear on the other side of the river actually) and remarkable cinematographer.

    Fantastic. His work with both the Coen brothers and Denis Villeneuve has been just fabulous. Some films you can watch just to see his amazing cinematography.
    Nominated for 15 Oscars - that tells you his work is solidly wonderful. The Shawshank Redemption, Fargo, A Beautiful Mind, Skyfall, Sicario, Blade Runner 2049, and 1917 - that's a hell of a body of work right there.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Much more likely that she is still closing down the furnaces in the pits of Hell.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    justin124 said:

    Sadly no award for Mark Francois this year. What a shame!

    Sparta awards no gongs.....
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Fun fact @Philip_Thompson, there hasn't been a 0-0 Newcastle Liverpool match since 1974, the year before the UK joined the EU.

    The UK joined the EEC on 1st Jan 1973!
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    edited December 2020
    The slow start to vaccination programs seems to be a worldwide phenomenon (except in Israel.)
    https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/1344405102258479105
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,577
    Turning in, but I came across this sketch earlier that I enjoyed in a 20 years ago sort of way.

    "I live in a Barratt House..."

    https://youtu.be/0JSahEDRjvw?t=15
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    A costal state? When should we expect the punch in the ribs?

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1344438691524182019?s=21
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
    If onl
    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:

    "Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."

    And:

    "Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.

    And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."

    From:

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
    And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.

    But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.

    We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.

    It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
    We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
    Something I argued for continuously but was told again and again by the Europhiles wasn't possible.
    And they were right, it wasn't.

    Indeed Brexit seems to be causing Norway to break up the EEA. Soon it will consist of countries with a smaller population than an English county.
    Are you arguing that Norway seeing us negotiate a better deal and wanting something better for themselves is a bad thing?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    A costal state? When should we expect the punch in the ribs?

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1344438691524182019?s=21

    Costive state, perhaps.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    That’s how you do a Fox News interview.
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1344427113059856387
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    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
    I think it is probably wise not to do that yet. Perhaps avoid setting off a daily Chimpanzee's Tea Party in the media.
    They have chosen not to record vaccination data in case the media reports it? More likely, as was suggested weeks ago on pb, there is not a proper system in place, and probably there never can be.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
    I think it is probably wise not to do that yet. Perhaps avoid setting off a daily Chimpanzee's Tea Party in the media.
    They have chosen not to record vaccination data in case the media reports it? More likely, as was suggested weeks ago on pb, there is not a proper system in place, and probably there never can be.
    But yet they can compile weekly stats, so there is some system in place.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,408
    edited December 2020
    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
    I think it is probably wise not to do that yet. Perhaps avoid setting off a daily Chimpanzee's Tea Party in the media.
    They have chosen not to record vaccination data in case the media reports it? More likely, as was suggested weeks ago on pb, there is not a proper system in place, and probably there never can be.
    But yet they can compile weekly stats, so there is some system in place.
    Knowing how many you've jabbed is simple enough. Even if you'd not counted arms you could work it out from the number of doses used. Knowing who and with what is more complicated, both logistically and for privacy and related reasons.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,844
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
    Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
    Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
    This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.

    Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
    This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:

    "Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."

    And:

    "Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.

    And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."

    From:

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
    Shame the free market in services never happened then
    Most services - whether inside the EU or not - are completely free from tariffs or regulation. PR, application development, virtual assistants, call centres, etc., all happily get sold around the world without supranational bodies getting involved.

    Where there is regulation that restricts cross border trade it tends to be in specific professional services, particularly law.

    But then again, we don't really have a single market in lawyers in the UK either, as - AFIUI, and I could be wrong - Scottish Advocates and English Barristers are not able perform each others' roles.
    There isn't a free market in gaming.
    Betting?

    A Frenchman can bet with Ladbrokes in the UK, no?
    Actually probably not, I know poker stars has many eu sites for instance for belgium there is a lot of problems for their plays such as this

    https://www.cardschat.com/f10/belgium-getting-biggest-f-ck-you-451012/
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
    I think it is probably wise not to do that yet. Perhaps avoid setting off a daily Chimpanzee's Tea Party in the media.
    They have chosen not to record vaccination data in case the media reports it? More likely, as was suggested weeks ago on pb, there is not a proper system in place, and probably there never can be.
    But yet they can compile weekly stats, so there is some system in place.
    Knowing how many you've jabbed is simple enough. Even if you'd not counted arms you could work it out from the number of doses used. Knowing who and with what is more complicated, both logistically and for privacy and related reasons.
    I find it very hard to believe they don't know who has had the jab. After all, they come in pairs.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Another new Georgia poll has Jon Ossoff well ahead: leading by +8. It also has Warnock ahead by +9. I'm suspicious of this polling to be frank, much as I would like it to be true. The sample size is small.

    https://winwithjmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Georgia-Senate-Runoff-Executive-Summary.pdf

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/georgia-senate-polls/?cid=rrpromo

    Polling in the US seems to be encountering problems at the moment.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Nigelb said:

    That’s how you do a Fox News interview.
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1344427113059856387

    Jon Ossoff seems really good. I watched his brilliant takedown of David Perdue back in October and it was blistering stuff.

    If he does get elected I could see him becoming a leading Democrat.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited December 2020
    High early youth vote in Georgia: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/georgia-runoff-youth-vote/2020/12/30/8104720c-4605-11eb-b0e4-0f182923a025_story.html

    But then we heard all that in the December 2019 UK election. Remember the 'youthquake'?
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    In fact, I've just placed a flutter on Jon Ossoff at 250/1 for 2024 Presidency. The kind of bet that's a bit of fun.

    I'm not even sure my 3/1 next week will come off.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    I know it's a "how long is a piece of string" kind of query, but roughly what percentage of Georgia votes has already been cast? What's left to fight for?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Number of French covid vaccinations rises to ... 332.

    With 194 done today:

    https://covidtracker.fr/vaccintracker

    Don't they come in boxes of 975 ?

    Is there a vaccine tracker page for the UK?
    At the bottom of this page:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

    But its only being updated weekly.
    Thanks, but it ought to be updated every day.
    At the moment, I don't think they can. There is supposed to be a computerized system for logging things, but it has been rather problematic and also doses can be filled on pretty much spur of the moment i.e. somebody doesn't turn up or as they have found bottles have been overfilled and they find there is an extra 1-2 doses in there...so then some extra NHS staff get a jab at the end of the day.
    I think it is probably wise not to do that yet. Perhaps avoid setting off a daily Chimpanzee's Tea Party in the media.
    They have chosen not to record vaccination data in case the media reports it? More likely, as was suggested weeks ago on pb, there is not a proper system in place, and probably there never can be.
    But yet they can compile weekly stats, so there is some system in place.
    Knowing how many you've jabbed is simple enough. Even if you'd not counted arms you could work it out from the number of doses used. Knowing who and with what is more complicated, both logistically and for privacy and related reasons.
    I find it very hard to believe they don't know who has had the jab. After all, they come in pairs.
    They certainly know who’s had it locally, the issue will be the collation of the numbers and breakdown of groups nationally - which takes management time and effort better directed at the rollout itself.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    Toms said:

    I know it's a "how long is a piece of string" kind of query, but roughly what percentage of Georgia votes has already been cast? What's left to fight for?

    2.5 million as of yesterday;
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/30/us/politics/georgia-senate-early-voting.html

    That’s just over a third of registered voters (7.2 million) but about half of the 59% overall turnout in November.

    And as before, it’s the Dems who are voting early. Turnout is down in Trump strongholds. However, that may correct itself on the day.

    The Dems are the value, but the the Republicans are the likelier winners.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001

    Another new Georgia poll has Jon Ossoff well ahead: leading by +8. It also has Warnock ahead by +9. I'm suspicious of this polling to be frank, much as I would like it to be true. The sample size is small.

    https://winwithjmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Georgia-Senate-Runoff-Executive-Summary.pdf

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/georgia-senate-polls/?cid=rrpromo

    Polling in the US seems to be encountering problems at the moment.

    I'm always a little sceptical of pollsters I've never heard of.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited December 2020
    So they do have 4 million doses ready, it's just they haven't been verified.

    A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care confirmed that AstraZeneca "have bottled four million doses but have not gone through the safety checks for all the batches", adding: "The nuance is they do have four million ready to go, but without knowing the exact conditions the MHRA have set I don't think it is feasible to check four million doses in one go."


    And another 15 million ready to be bottled

    Mr Johnson promised that "tens of millions" of doses would be available by the end of March, and The Telegraph understands that AstraZeneca already has 15 million doses waiting to be put into vials as soon as required. That could be done in a matter of days at specialist factories in the UK and Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/30/britain-races-roll-covid-vaccines-bid-avoid-third-lockdown/
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    ydoethur said:

    Toms said:

    I know it's a "how long is a piece of string" kind of query, but roughly what percentage of Georgia votes has already been cast? What's left to fight for?

    2.5 million as of yesterday;
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/30/us/politics/georgia-senate-early-voting.html

    That’s just over a third of registered voters (7.2 million) but about half of the 59% overall turnout in November.

    And as before, it’s the Dems who are voting early. Turnout is down in Trump strongholds. However, that may correct itself on the day.

    The Dems are the value, but the the Republicans are the likelier winners.
    Interesting. Thanks.
    May Biden's special Phoenix talisman see him through!
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2020
    And on top of that, Nige is someone who's never sought the limielight, never sought to grandstand ; always stuck to his principles, and never beein involved in the financial chicanery of all those top politicians. Just got on with it quietly and honourably, like one of Britain's quiet heroes.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    RobD said:

    So they do have 4 million doses ready, it's just they haven't been verified.

    A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care confirmed that AstraZeneca "have bottled four million doses but have not gone through the safety checks for all the batches", adding: "The nuance is they do have four million ready to go, but without knowing the exact conditions the MHRA have set I don't think it is feasible to check four million doses in one go."


    And another 15 million ready to be bottled

    Mr Johnson promised that "tens of millions" of doses would be available by the end of March, and The Telegraph understands that AstraZeneca already has 15 million doses waiting to be put into vials as soon as required. That could be done in a matter of days at specialist factories in the UK and Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/30/britain-races-roll-covid-vaccines-bid-avoid-third-lockdown/

    Phew, so the 20m figure was not complete rubbish.

    Getting to 2m vaccinations a week by mid-Feb is challenging, but achievable.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,267
    edited December 2020
    Toms said:

    ydoethur said:

    Toms said:

    I know it's a "how long is a piece of string" kind of query, but roughly what percentage of Georgia votes has already been cast? What's left to fight for?

    2.5 million as of yesterday;
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/30/us/politics/georgia-senate-early-voting.html

    That’s just over a third of registered voters (7.2 million) but about half of the 59% overall turnout in November.

    And as before, it’s the Dems who are voting early. Turnout is down in Trump strongholds. However, that may correct itself on the day.

    The Dems are the value, but the the Republicans are the likelier winners.
    Interesting. Thanks.
    May Biden's special Phoenix talisman see him through!
    I just want to see Ossoff duffing up Mitch McConnell on the floor of the Senate.
  • Options
    Disagree with Cyclefree on Suella Braverman, who never had a reputation and was specifically appointed to provide legal cover to Boris Johnson. The fact that the PM did make Braverman Attorney-General tells you everything that you need to know about his commitment to the rule of law. We'll see this even more clearly next year.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,357
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    So they do have 4 million doses ready, it's just they haven't been verified.

    A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care confirmed that AstraZeneca "have bottled four million doses but have not gone through the safety checks for all the batches", adding: "The nuance is they do have four million ready to go, but without knowing the exact conditions the MHRA have set I don't think it is feasible to check four million doses in one go."


    And another 15 million ready to be bottled

    Mr Johnson promised that "tens of millions" of doses would be available by the end of March, and The Telegraph understands that AstraZeneca already has 15 million doses waiting to be put into vials as soon as required. That could be done in a matter of days at specialist factories in the UK and Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/30/britain-races-roll-covid-vaccines-bid-avoid-third-lockdown/

    Phew, so the 20m figure was not complete rubbish.

    Getting to 2m vaccinations a week by mid-Feb is challenging, but achievable.
    Hope the needle manufacturers are prepared...
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,357

    And on top of that, Nige is someone who's never sought the limielight, never sought to grandstand ; always stuck to his principles, and never beein involved in the financial chicanery of all those top politicians. Just got on with it quietly and honourably, like one of Britain's quiet heroes.
    and yet no-one trusts him....
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    So they do have 4 million doses ready, it's just they haven't been verified.

    A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care confirmed that AstraZeneca "have bottled four million doses but have not gone through the safety checks for all the batches", adding: "The nuance is they do have four million ready to go, but without knowing the exact conditions the MHRA have set I don't think it is feasible to check four million doses in one go."


    And another 15 million ready to be bottled

    Mr Johnson promised that "tens of millions" of doses would be available by the end of March, and The Telegraph understands that AstraZeneca already has 15 million doses waiting to be put into vials as soon as required. That could be done in a matter of days at specialist factories in the UK and Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/30/britain-races-roll-covid-vaccines-bid-avoid-third-lockdown/

    Phew, so the 20m figure was not complete rubbish.

    Getting to 2m vaccinations a week by mid-Feb is challenging, but achievable.
    Hope the needle manufacturers are prepared...
    And those that make those little round plasters. Going to need a couple billion of those.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,968

    The EU Bill has the Royal Assent.

    It's over.

    And so it begins...
This discussion has been closed.