You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Brexit consolidates power in Westminster.
Actually it consolidates it in Government. Parliament is sidelined completely.
For now, just as before brexit power was consolidated in Brussels, what is your point? You fix crappy systems from the head downwards
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Never going to happen. 😂
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
I've absolutely no idea what the next 10 years look like - and presumably, neither do you. I think some general heat needs t9
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
When can we start talking about something other than brexit, where all that happens is a cyclical exchange of entrenched opinion.
Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?
No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
It sounds intuitively BS.
Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
Freedom to control our own laws. Freedom to control our own economy. Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines. Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer. Oh and some fish.
You haven't read the agreement, have you?
I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.
We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
It's the curious thing about the powers that the UK may have gained by this process. Leave aside whether those powers are operable (I suspect most of the buttons the UK now has access to will never be worth pressing, because of the consequences).
To my non-expert eye, it looks like the powers gained in this process have accrued to the UK government- more flex in changing laws and economics. But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
I can see the extra vim for the government, and yes- I get to vote for or against them a dozen or so times more in my time on this planet.
But I've got less control of my life next week than this, haven't I?
True. I’m slightly puzzled why a self declared libertarian like Philip is so keen on the settlement.
Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.
I'll say it again.
This is as good as it ever gets for Brexit. The unsullied fantasy. Let them revel in it while they still can.
It's all downhill from here...
News broadcasts from East Germany used to be full of stories about how awful it was in the West: poverty, drug addiction, immigration and social collapse. I expect it's the kind of thing we can look forward to in order to portray the EU as a failed project.
‘The slaves of EUroland continue to suffer the tyranny of barely scorched toast and the obscenity of straight bananas; they’re so brainwashed they don’t even realise the horror of it all.’
The weird thing is, this is the way liberal media giants like the New York Times, and, to a lesser extent, some EU media, are reporting on Brexit Britain.
Like we have become this total freaky toilet-of-the-world, riven with racism, divided, bigoted and violent, doomed to a nihilistic decline, and so on and so forth. It's insane hyperbole.
Today I took my daughter to the vet to get her beloved budgie checked. Then I had a nice lunch. This afternoon I met a friend for a thermos of mulled wine, each, in Waterlow Park in Highgate. Parents walked their kids, young people flirted and laughed, joggers passed by, checking their wearable fitness apps. And people of all races, colours, creeds and beliefs happily mixed in the higgledy-piggeldy madness that is London, somehow without stabbing each other. Yes Covid has made life very difficult, but that is true of the entire world, and in the UK civilised life continues.
Compare this with, ooh, I dunno, New York City and the USA? - where murder rates have soared since Covid.
What happened there then? Did the USA Brexit even more dangerously? Creating this perilous instability? Or is it just a kind of liberal elite wishful thinking, that WANTS to see Britain as a mad, doom-laden hellhouse, because a successful, democratic vote to overthrow an unwanted elite menaces elites everywhere?
The 'higgledy-piggledy madness that is London' voted Remain of course.
Sadly, large swathes of little England are not so attuned to multicultural diversity.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
+1 - the entire point of the single market was to kill paperwork and what will we have a ton of come Friday morning - extra paperwork for everything imported or exported.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Not liking the Euro does not imply she would have wanted to dismantle her signature achievement.
You can think the Euro is bad and still think Brexit is worse.
If the government's number crunchers are any good they ought to be able to work out precisely which (groups of) people need to be vaccinated in order to reduce the number of deaths by 80%, 90%, 95%, etc.
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Never going to happen. 😂
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
Did I claim it was happening in the next couple of years? No it might take as long as it took to get rid of the EU but then we have got through step 1 and those of us who think Westminster is too centralized as a government can take heart that eventually we can take people with us.
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Never going to happen. 😂
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
The belief in democracy somewhat superficial. 🤷♂️ Can’t say I’m surprised.
Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?
No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
It sounds intuitively BS.
Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
Freedom to control our own laws. Freedom to control our own economy. Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines. Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer. Oh and some fish.
You haven't read the agreement, have you?
I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.
We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
It's the curious thing about the powers that the UK may have gained by this process. Leave aside whether those powers are operable (I suspect most of the buttons the UK now has access to will never be worth pressing, because of the consequences).
To my non-expert eye, it looks like the powers gained in this process have accrued to the UK government- more flex in changing laws and economics. But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
I can see the extra vim for the government, and yes- I get to vote for or against them a dozen or so times more in my time on this planet.
But I've got less control of my life next week than this, haven't I?
True. I’m slightly puzzled why a self declared libertarian like Philip is so keen on the settlement.
I'd rather have the least amount of laws, set by a government we can elect - with the possibility of a future government rolling back the clock and reversing laws.
The ratchet in the EU meant that laws were only added not reversed. The EEC did good work in its early years breaking down barriers but now it exists as just a procedure to add them instead. Once passed its nigh on impossible to wind back the clock or deregulate - in the UK to do so you just need to elect one government to do so, in the EU you need to QMV of nations all wanting to do so.
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Never going to happen. 😂
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
The belief in democracy somewhat superficial. 🤷♂️ Can’t say I’m surprised.
He speaks as if gove and boris have formed a thousand year reich...
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Not liking the Euro does not imply she would have wanted to dismantle her signature achievement.
You can think the Euro is bad and still think Brexit is worse.
You are a monumental bore on this subject. Even when you are clearly proven to be wrong, with evidence, you just chunter on. And on, And on. It is a waste of my limited time on this earth to engage with this tediousness.
But do carry on shouting into the void, if you want. Happy New Year
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Never going to happen. 😂
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
The belief in democracy somewhat superficial. 🤷♂️ Can’t say I’m surprised.
He speaks as if gove and boris have formed a thousand year reich...
They haven't but whoever replaces them will be elected with their own agenda they want to implement.
Spoiler alert: It won't be to "break" their own powers.
those of us who think Westminster is too centralized as a government can take heart that eventually we can take people with us.
Your great first step was backwards.
Good job.
Only to you, you probably believe a world government would be great. I on the other hand believe democracy fails when the demos goes above a few million and instead hands all power to the corrupt and those with the money to buy them.
But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
Trimmed to the part I wanted to address
Yes you had freedom to sell the stuff to europe but only around 5 to 10% of uk people were involved in that
Yes you had the freedom to move to live and work in the eu but an even more miniscule amount of the people in this country ever wanted to take advantage of it.
On the other hand 100% of people had to pay for those freedoms for the few
a) via taxes b) via not having the ability to vote for policies that weren't allowed under the eu...nationalisation, state subsidy etc c) Having the eu used to get around national parliaments when it was used as a way of bringing in laws a national government wanted but knew it would never get past the national parliament so they would get it brought in at eu level. d) Paid for in people not able to get their family in because we couldn't restrict eu nationals coming here so had to tighten up on non eu migration rules
Your vaunted freedoms were for the few and when you asked the rest of us to pay and we finally got to answer we said "On your bike sunshine". Tough luck
Some of that's fair enough, and the rest of it does come in the category of Leave won, so here we are.
But the UK does seem to be moving in the direction of Westminster taking control. Replacing a set of rules applied imperfectly across a wide area, which a whimsical despot who might be replaced in four years time.
Who, exactly has got the extra control now? If it's the government, is there any sign that they are capable of using that control effectively and morally?
The voter has the extra control.
If you're not happy with the government, elect a new one.
And for the next three years?
You make the mistake of thinking brexit was the end game. For some it's the first step. Had to be out the EU as a first step, next step is to break the power of westminster.
Explain that one to me please? 🤔
Westminster has just had the biggest restoration of power in half a century.
Yes the EU needed to go before we can tackle westminister and bring powers back to lower levels of government. No point tackling Westminster when all the power was in brussels
Never going to happen. 😂
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
The belief in democracy somewhat superficial. 🤷♂️ Can’t say I’m surprised.
He speaks as if gove and boris have formed a thousand year reich...
They haven't but whoever replaces them will be elected with their own agenda they want to implement.
Spoiler alert: It won't be to "break" their own powers.
There was no point in localist parties while brussels held the reins, only anti eu parties. Now brussels no longer hold the reins expect localist parties to spring up. Hopefully we will get scottish independence and irish reunification which will hasten things
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
I on the other hand believe democracy fails when the demos goes above a few million and instead hands all power to the corrupt and those with the money to buy them.
I agree with that sentiment, which is why Brexit is such a retrograde step.
BoZo and chums can fuck things up really badly now, with limited oversight.
Of course Richard B Russell was.....er.....a democrat Senator
The Democrats were the party that opposed blacks being allowed to vote. Indeed, they had segregationist Senators, including one that remained in office until 2010.
There is no doubt that the Republicans, the party of Lincoln and of Reagan, were the non-racist party.
There is also no doubt that Lincoln and Reagan, men of enormous personal probity, would be disgusted at Trump.
Otoh one link between Reagan and Trump was Roy Cohn. Pretty sure Reagan’s disgust would be tempered by what point he was on between arch conservative cold warrior and dead cuddly old duffer on whom folk can impose their own templates.
Is that the man of enormous personal probity who defended Nixon throughout Watergate ?
Not an official defender but certainly a true and loyal advisor. A good claim to be the worst human being in US public life of the last 70 years, and that includes Trump.
Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?
No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
It sounds intuitively BS.
Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
Freedom to control our own laws. Freedom to control our own economy. Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines. Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer. Oh and some fish.
like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.
Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.
like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.
It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.
like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.
The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated? representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy. Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.
Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
Utter bollocks from start to finish.
Yes. Total nonsense. And too much of it, as well. Bleurgh
Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.
Its total whingy bullshit. Where should we start?
What you as well! The three of you. Great arguments you've produced between you. Enlightening and educational.
I know I am biased working for the police for 30 years. However I think they do a difficult job for those working on the front line during a pandemic.Many in very close contact with violent people who spit and injure officers. Maybe cyclefree omitted them for a reason I very much hope not.
Why do you think the police were trusted more 30 years ago than today by many people?
I never said that. I think you have read it wrong. I believe the police are better than they were over 30 years ago when I joined. In many aspects including more equality in race and gender also with much more diverse political views in its ranks than when it was nearly dominated by conservative views. If you can let me know what mean would be appreciated.
Police are a bit more trusted according to ipsos I think. The massive rise has been trust in civil servants. 2019 Veracity index - Trust in professions.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?
No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
It sounds intuitively BS.
Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
Freedom to control our own laws. Freedom to control our own economy. Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines. Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer. Oh and some fish.
You haven't read the agreement, have you?
I'm currently working my way through it. It's dismal how few of Britain's own publicly stated asks it managed to get, despite holding all the cards. Apparently.
I think the reason that so many Tories are OK with this is that parliamentary careers are now rather short. Most of the Cabinet have been in parliament less than 10 years so have no experience of opposition, and no intention of staying in Parliament were they to become the opposition. As a result they do not fear such powers in the hands of the opposition.
We have moved from a parliamentary democracy, to one where we get a say in the executive once every few years.
It's the curious thing about the powers that the UK may have gained by this process. Leave aside whether those powers are operable (I suspect most of the buttons the UK now has access to will never be worth pressing, because of the consequences).
To my non-expert eye, it looks like the powers gained in this process have accrued to the UK government- more flex in changing laws and economics. But I'm also conscious of powers I have lost, or had diluted. After Friday, it will be (at the very least) harder to move around, buy and sell stuff beyond the UK.
I can see the extra vim for the government, and yes- I get to vote for or against them a dozen or so times more in my time on this planet.
But I've got less control of my life next week than this, haven't I?
True. I’m slightly puzzled why a self declared libertarian like Philip is so keen on the settlement.
I'd rather have the least amount of laws, set by a government we can elect - with the possibility of a future government rolling back the clock and reversing laws.
The ratchet in the EU meant that laws were only added not reversed. The EEC did good work in its early years breaking down barriers but now it exists as just a procedure to add them instead. Once passed its nigh on impossible to wind back the clock or deregulate - in the UK to do so you just need to elect one government to do so, in the EU you need to QMV of nations all wanting to do so.
Absolutely. How do you repeal an EU law/directive? As a voter? No one was ever able to give me an answer.
That alone was reason enough to Exit. And so we have. And it was the right decision, even tho it may cost us, in the first few years.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
I on the other hand believe democracy fails when the demos goes above a few million and instead hands all power to the corrupt and those with the money to buy them.
I agree with that sentiment, which is why Brexit is such a retrograde step.
BoZo and chums can fuck things up really badly now, with limited oversight.
Ah you edit and agree but completely disregard the fact that brussels had more industry lobbyists than washington. Look at the eu copyright directive if you want to see industry buying politicians for a good example of corruption. Brussels is corrupt in a way that makes westminster look like a rank amateur. Brussels is a high class hooker charging 200£ an hour in comparison westminster is giving bj's for a fiver in the alley behind the pub.
If the government's number crunchers are any good they ought to be able to work out precisely which (groups of) people need to be vaccinated in order to reduce the number of deaths by 80%, 90%, 95%, etc.
You have a faith in the DoH that I do not share. Specifying such level of detail slows things down considerably.
Just popped up on my Facebook page: 'Britain has won nothing but has lost a continent,' - Ursula van der Leyen. Anyone know the source?
No hits on google, so more twitter bollocks.
It sounds intuitively BS.
Sort of thing a Remainer would invent, not diplomatic enough for UvDL (even if she thought it she wouldn't say it).
It’s true though we no longer have frictionless trade with the continent we once had.
It isn't true. We no longer have frictionless trade but it is not true at all to say we have "won nothing".
LOL. What are you saying we won? We went backwards in frictionless trade, what did we win in return to account for making our economy, government and households poorer?
Freedom to control our own laws. Freedom to control our own economy. Freedom to negotiate better trade deals with fewer red lines. Freedom to make our own economy, government and households richer. Oh and some fish.
like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what freedom is.
Freedom is in the pocket. When you are poor you are closer to being a slave, when you are wealthier you come closer to be being free. And Brexit will make the country poorer, year on year. As every good economist knows.
like all brexiteers, you haven’t a clue what sovereignty is.
It’s a currency. You put it to work for you and your citizens. Just sitting on it, it’s useless. You spend it In all your trade deals. In your all your security deals, like NATO. In your dealings with the UN. We know how every pro European party leader from Thatcher to Cameron used the currency of sovereignty for the good of their citizens, and how this current government have ripped up the deal previous conservative governments built and nurtured for the current and future citizens.
like all brexiteers you don’t understand what Democracy is.
The whole point of the democracy isn’t so that 52% ever trumps 48%, actual democracy is about tolerating minority views in the big decisions for a big society going forwards, not just as fairest, but to minimise ongoing conflict. So a Brexit not just for the 52% (many of which actually did not vote for hard brexit), but also the views of the 48% too, and the many millions too baffled by the campaigning to appreciate the difference. Direct democracy relies so much on the quality of the debate. Did the 2016 campaign inform the voters or confuse or mislead them? When people voted were they sure what they would be getting? Were all the risks with both options fully appreciated? representative democracy is far stronger than direct democracy because it allows for more efficient scrutiny by a sufficiently small number of people with time and skills, who have maturity of judgment and unbiased in opinion to go into forensic depth and come to a more enlightened conclusion on behalf of all people and points of view. key difference between direct and representative forms of democracy is representatives not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but to use their own judgment in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters, but the voters can still remove them. If you don’t agree with me on that then you don’t actually agree with parliamentary democracy. Democracy is really about what do you do when you disagree. And the time and skills to scrutinise and debate to a strong conclusion.
Democracy, sovereignty, freedom. Today the U.K. has gone backwards in everyone.
Utter bollocks from start to finish.
Yes. Total nonsense. And too much of it, as well. Bleurgh
Wow. These are really convincing counter arguments from the two of you, propping each other up. Well done.
Its total whingy bullshit. Where should we start?
What you as well! The three of you. Great arguments you've produced between you. Enlightening and educational.
What was there to answer. It was a bollocks whingefest.
Where to start with a rant that starts off with saying we will be closer to being slaves outside of the EU? 🤷♂️
It should be noted that the UK ought to be richer outside of the EU. English speaking western nations are all richer and grown faster per capita than the EU have.
those of us who think Westminster is too centralized as a government can take heart that eventually we can take people with us.
Your great first step was backwards.
Good job.
Only to you, you probably believe a world government would be great. I on the other hand believe democracy fails when the demos goes above a few million and instead hands all power to the corrupt and those with the money to buy them.
Wow. You should vote Lib Dem rather than Brexit then.
those of us who think Westminster is too centralized as a government can take heart that eventually we can take people with us.
Your great first step was backwards.
Good job.
Only to you, you probably believe a world government would be great. I on the other hand believe democracy fails when the demos goes above a few million and instead hands all power to the corrupt and those with the money to buy them.
Wow. You should vote Lib Dem rather than Brexit then.
Why when the lib dems are neither liberal democratic nor non corrupt? Did they ever return that money?
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
Sure. The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
If Blair had spent his political capital on taking us into the Euro instead of encouraging US imperial overreach, the world would be a better place.
That is an interesting alternative history. I see the argument that Blair possibly had just enough power - ie lots and lots -in 1997, to force us into the euro without a referendum. It was Gordon Brown that kept us out, God bless his little weird autistic cotton socks.
But I doubt that. Even Blair in his pomp would have needed a referendum to get the UK into the euro, I think. And he would have lost it, even in the afterglow of the huge majority of 1997. The Brits are eurosceptic, always have been, always will be. That's why Blair didn't force the issue.
Would the UK joining the euro have changed history? Yes, it would have made Brexit much harder, and probably impossible (so I can see why you would like the idea), but it would not have prevented the euro-crisis (which is just waiting to be reborn, by the way). The euro extended over the entire EU, pretty much, is a really bad idea, which is why it hasn't worked. Thatcher was right,
They should have started it with the the Original EU six, maybe minus Italy. Just Germany, France and Benelux. Get that working, then expand it slowly and carefully. Instead - as Thatcher said - they had a "rush of blood to the head" and included Greece and Spain et al. Result: disaster
The euro extended over the entire EU, pretty much, is a really bad idea, which is why it hasn't worked. Thatcher was right,
They should have started it with the the Original EU six, maybe minus Italy. Just Germany, France and Benelux. Get that working, then expand it slowly and carefully. Instead - as Thatcher said - they had a "rush of blood to the head" and included Greece and Spain et al. Result: disaster
The euro extended over the entire EU, pretty much, is a really bad idea, which is why it hasn't worked. Thatcher was right,
They should have started it with the the Original EU six, maybe minus Italy. Just Germany, France and Benelux. Get that working, then expand it slowly and carefully. Instead - as Thatcher said - they had a "rush of blood to the head" and included Greece and Spain et al. Result: disaster
Which will last longer?
Euro?
or Brexit?
Brexit, the eu lurches from crises to crises and never resolves them but kicks them into the long grass. Sooner or later they will all come due at once
The euro extended over the entire EU, pretty much, is a really bad idea, which is why it hasn't worked. Thatcher was right,
They should have started it with the the Original EU six, maybe minus Italy. Just Germany, France and Benelux. Get that working, then expand it slowly and carefully. Instead - as Thatcher said - they had a "rush of blood to the head" and included Greece and Spain et al. Result: disaster
Which will last longer?
Euro?
or Brexit?
Brexit.
Though Britain itself likely won't last longer and parts of Britain may rejoin.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
Sure. The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
Impressionist Rory Bremner 'saved Sir John Major's bacon' amid MPs revolt https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424 ... Mr Carlisle had told another MP, Graham Bright, about the phone calls and the cabinet secretary investigated. A fortnight after the calls, he phoned both MPs. Sir Richard was insistent it had been the real prime minister. According to an official note of their conversation, Sir Richard told the cabinet secretary that the call had "saved [Sir John's] bacon". The cabinet secretary then called Michael Grade, then-chief executive of Channel 4. He told him that in his view and that of the PM the calls had "crossed the boundary between entertainment and real life to an unacceptable degree"....
Impressionist Rory Bremner 'saved Sir John Major's bacon' amid MPs revolt https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424 ... Mr Carlisle had told another MP, Graham Bright, about the phone calls and the cabinet secretary investigated. A fortnight after the calls, he phoned both MPs. Sir Richard was insistent it had been the real prime minister. According to an official note of their conversation, Sir Richard told the cabinet secretary that the call had "saved [Sir John's] bacon". The cabinet secretary then called Michael Grade, then-chief executive of Channel 4. He told him that in his view and that of the PM the calls had "crossed the boundary between entertainment and real life to an unacceptable degree"....
I have literally never met anyone as dishonest as Boris Johnson. I have known people who lie easily but they have some concept that the truth matters at some level and at certain times.
I am not talking only about this, but he was certainly on form today.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
Sure. The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
Quite right. Mrs Oliver Letwin. God help us.
She might not have lost her marbles at that point, but she’d certainly mislaid most of her judgment.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later. If onl Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later. If onl Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
Indeed pre maastricht I was perfectly fine with our membership. Then each time we elected a government and lent them powers they seemed to give a few away and hand us back more than we had lent them.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later. If onl Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later. If onl Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
Before maastricht I believe the eea was different. The EEA has changed too
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later. If onl Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
Indeed pre maastricht I was perfectly fine with our membership. Then each time we elected a government and lent them powers they seemed to give a few away and hand us back more than we had lent them.
It was evident after the introduction of other ideas like the flag and anthem.
Of course that doesn't really explain why EEA wouldn't have been a sensible compromise. I suppose even that had been tainted by the tentacles of the EU at that point.
The China / EU investment deal was an interesting announcement today - seems to have been led by Merkel and Macron with Xi. That symbolically says a lot..
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later. If onl Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
And she was entirely right. If only the EU had stayed where it was about then: 1990-1995. Single Market minus the Maastricht political bits. We Brits would be happy members of the Single Market and we would all be likely thriving.
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
We still could have had the single market and none iof the Maastricht bits. That was available - it was our choice to leave the EEA as well as the EU.
Before maastricht I believe the eea was different. The EEA has changed too
The EEA didn't exist before Maastricht. It was extended to allow the EFTA countries to participate in the single market. Nevertheless many of them chose to join the full EU.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
Sure. The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
Philosophically it was logical, coherent and defensible (local government provides services and charges a flat fee while redistribution should be a matter for national government).
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
Sure. The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
Philosophically it was logical, coherent and defensible (local government provides services and charges a flat fee while redistribution should be a matter for national government).
Politically it was... foolish
Yes, I can see why you would want to pay the same as your cleaner.
The UK manufacturers are Oxford BioMedica and Cobra Therapeutics, ‘Fill and finish’ by Wockhart in Wrexham.
It's paywalled. What's the article title?
Output of Oxford-AstraZeneca doses held up
Thanks. So according to that article the expected number of doses available by the end of 2020 had dropped from 30m to 4m.
4m still seems plenty to get started in January. However, if the production issues are worse or ongoing, the Government must already know and should come clean to manage public expectations accordingly.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
Shame the free market in services never happened then
Most services - whether inside the EU or not - are completely free from tariffs or regulation. PR, application development, virtual assistants, call centres, etc., all happily get sold around the world without supranational bodies getting involved.
Where there is regulation that restricts cross border trade it tends to be in specific professional services, particularly law.
But then again, we don't really have a single market in lawyers in the UK either, as - AFIUI, and I could be wrong - Scottish Advocates and English Barristers are not able perform each others' roles.
Regarding Free Ports/Enterprise Zones in the EU, @williamglenn & @Theuniondivvie may be interested in the following report from a UN body looking at free ports from the perspective of the Far East:
'The conclusion is that FTZs as originally conceived do not exist any more in the European Union. The Commission does allow the establishment of free zones within its territory but its definition of free zone is a very narrow one. Free zones are special areas within the customs territory of the Community where goods are free of import duties, VAT and other import charges.'
Most of the free trade zones raised (like Hamburg) were in place before accession to the EU, and their benefits have been devalued successively since.
The UK manufacturers are Oxford BioMedica and Cobra Therapeutics, ‘Fill and finish’ by Wockhart in Wrexham.
It's paywalled. What's the article title?
Output of Oxford-AstraZeneca doses held up
Thanks. So according to that article the expected number of doses available by the end of 2020 had dropped from 30m to 4m.
4m still seems plenty to get started in January. However, if the production issues are worse or ongoing, the Government must already know and should come clean to manage public expectations accordingly.
Any PBers have inside knowledge?
A more recent article states the Wales plant can now produce 5million doses a month, with a projected capacity of double that. Combined with imports from Europe it should add up.
if the production issues are worse or ongoing, the Government must already know and should come clean to manage public expectations accordingly.
They had that opportunity both in the last few days and today and if anything doubled down on their previous assertions, so they're either extremely confident or extremely deluded.
The UK has now approved two vaccines while Ireland waits for decisions from the European Medicines Agency, which has taken a more “relaxed” approach to authorisations without any visible benefit so far.
At this stage it is unclear whether the new UK and South African variants of the virus are as much a threat as they have been made out to be, but if this does prove the case we will be indebted to the work of scientists in London and Porton Down, not Brussels.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
Shame the free market in services never happened then
Most services - whether inside the EU or not - are completely free from tariffs or regulation. PR, application development, virtual assistants, call centres, etc., all happily get sold around the world without supranational bodies getting involved.
Where there is regulation that restricts cross border trade it tends to be in specific professional services, particularly law.
But then again, we don't really have a single market in lawyers in the UK either, as - AFIUI, and I could be wrong - Scottish Advocates and English Barristers are not able perform each others' roles.
Fun fact @Philip_Thompson, there hasn't been a 0-0 Newcastle Liverpool match since 1974, the year before the UK joined the EU.
Man U can go top by beating Villa 10-0 on Friday. Just saying.
Earlier that day, the mighty EFC can pull within a point of the top from the same number of games, by beating West Ham at home. We've 4 wins on the trot and coming off a huge 6 days rest. It's turning into a fascinating season at the top.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
This is Maggie in 1988, talking about Europe:
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
Shame the free market in services never happened then
Most services - whether inside the EU or not - are completely free from tariffs or regulation. PR, application development, virtual assistants, call centres, etc., all happily get sold around the world without supranational bodies getting involved.
Where there is regulation that restricts cross border trade it tends to be in specific professional services, particularly law.
But then again, we don't really have a single market in lawyers in the UK either, as - AFIUI, and I could be wrong - Scottish Advocates and English Barristers are not able perform each others' roles.
Yes of course, one of the prime movers of the Single Market would be delighted we have fucked business, blown up our FDI chances and erected customs barriers.
Recently released papers make it clear Thatcher was becoming seriously eurosceptic as early as the late 80s. She was, for instance, absolutely bang on about the euro, and how it was a madcap idea which would do grave damage.
Those of us around at the time also recall the deterioration in her mental state at the same time
This is simultaneously mendacious, insulting and borderline libellous (if one could libel the dead). Margaret Thatcher in the late 80s was in her prime. She might have let the power go to her head occasionally ("we are a grandmother") but there was absolutely no sign of her later, melancholy decline into dementia. That came a full decade later.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
Margaret Thatcher may have been showing the ‘first signs of dementia’ during her final year as prime minister, Ken Clarke has claimed.
The Tory grandee, who served in Mrs Thatcher’s Cabinet, said the prime minister’s personality ‘rapidly changed’ towards the end of her tenure, leading him to develop the ‘theory’ that she was displaying early symptoms of the condition.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/margaret-thatcher-said-plan-for-the-euro-was-a-rush-of-blood-archives-reveal
Not even on the agenda. Gove and Boris didn't campaign to take back control to give it to the parish councillor of dunny on the wold.
Sadly, large swathes of little England are not so attuned to multicultural diversity.
You can think the Euro is bad and still think Brexit is worse.
The ratchet in the EU meant that laws were only added not reversed. The EEC did good work in its early years breaking down barriers but now it exists as just a procedure to add them instead. Once passed its nigh on impossible to wind back the clock or deregulate - in the UK to do so you just need to elect one government to do so, in the EU you need to QMV of nations all wanting to do so.
Good job.
But do carry on shouting into the void, if you want. Happy New Year
Spoiler alert: It won't be to "break" their own powers.
Be a gent. Desist and retract. It's a truly nasty thing to impute.
BoZo and chums can fuck things up really badly now, with limited oversight.
2019 Veracity index - Trust in professions.
That alone was reason enough to Exit. And so we have. And it was the right decision, even tho it may cost us, in the first few years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55486157
Where to start with a rant that starts off with saying we will be closer to being slaves outside of the EU? 🤷♂️
It should be noted that the UK ought to be richer outside of the EU. English speaking western nations are all richer and grown faster per capita than the EU have.
https://twitter.com/Rob_Kimbell/status/1344395098419851264?s=20
The poll tax was the inspiration of a colossus at the height of her powers.
But I doubt that. Even Blair in his pomp would have needed a referendum to get the UK into the euro, I think. And he would have lost it, even in the afterglow of the huge majority of 1997. The Brits are eurosceptic, always have been, always will be. That's why Blair didn't force the issue.
Would the UK joining the euro have changed history? Yes, it would have made Brexit much harder, and probably impossible (so I can see why you would like the idea), but it would not have prevented the euro-crisis (which is just waiting to be reborn, by the way). The euro extended over the entire EU, pretty much, is a really bad idea, which is why it hasn't worked. Thatcher was right,
They should have started it with the the Original EU six, maybe minus Italy. Just Germany, France and Benelux. Get that working, then expand it slowly and carefully. Instead - as Thatcher said - they had a "rush of blood to the head" and included Greece and Spain et al. Result: disaster
Euro?
or Brexit?
Though Britain itself likely won't last longer and parts of Britain may rejoin.
"Action to get rid of the barriers. Action to make it possible for insurance companies to do business throughout the Community. Action to let people practice their trades and professions freely throughout the Community. Action to remove the customs barriers and formalities so that goods can circulate [end p10] freely and without time-consuming delays. Action to make sure that any company could sell its goods and services without let or hindrance. Action to secure free movement of capital throughout the Community."
And:
"Today's conference is not just a one-off event. That is why we have set ourselves a target of ensuring that over 90%; of British firms are aware of the 1992 commitment by the end of this year. It must be the start of a sustained national effort to ensure that everyone in business, in industry, in the service [end p19] sector, is aware of the challenge.
And not just in business and industry. We are putting the European Community to work for ordinary people: for cheaper air fares, for more and better services, for consumer choice and product safety."
From:
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
Impressionist Rory Bremner 'saved Sir John Major's bacon' amid MPs revolt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55477424
... Mr Carlisle had told another MP, Graham Bright, about the phone calls and the cabinet secretary investigated. A fortnight after the calls, he phoned both MPs.
Sir Richard was insistent it had been the real prime minister. According to an official note of their conversation, Sir Richard told the cabinet secretary that the call had "saved [Sir John's] bacon".
The cabinet secretary then called Michael Grade, then-chief executive of Channel 4.
He told him that in his view and that of the PM the calls had "crossed the boundary between entertainment and real life to an unacceptable degree"....
I am not talking only about this, but he was certainly on form today.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1344381526126047232
https://twitter.com/K_G_Andersen/status/1344399869889269761?s=20
But most Brits (and I include Thatcher in this) badly underestimated the genuine desire, of the European elite, to Federalise and unify: "Ever Closer Union" was not boilerplate to them, it was a proper goal. It is what they wanted and what they want. The euro was a means, however dangerous and foolish, to accelerate that process. Once a nation is in the euro it can basically never leave, even if it so desires, the process is too damaging. See: Greece.
We should have had a referendum on Maastricht, the Constitution or Lisbon. We would have said No. The EU would have accommodated us, and we would have remained inside but on the periphery, but with say over EU law. As it is, the europhiles overplayed their hand, insulted democracy too many times, and in the end it came to a polarising In/Out vote and Out won, because the europhiles had lied too much, too often.
It is a tragedy. It need not have happened. Ah well.
https://www.ft.com/content/651be7e7-2a4e-410f-8089-b4b7e887f6e8
The UK manufacturers are Oxford BioMedica and Cobra Therapeutics,
‘Fill and finish’ by Wockhart in Wrexham.
Another Johnson 'promise" on covid.
Why does he never ever learn?
Surely after the massive clusterfuck that was his 'saving xmas' policy you would have thought he would learn.
Of course that doesn't really explain why EEA wouldn't have been a sensible compromise. I suppose even that had been tainted by the tentacles of the EU at that point.
The China / EU investment deal was an interesting announcement today - seems to have been led by Merkel and Macron with Xi. That symbolically says a lot..
https://www.chronicle.gi/intense-negotiations-as-gib-deal-edges-ever-closer/
It looks like the dispute is over putting EU border control officers in Gib Airport.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1344242189057089539
Politically it was... foolish
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/supply-of-covid-vaccine-doses-held-up-by-manufacturing-delays-1.4430676
Hard to see why the cleaner objected isn't it?
4m still seems plenty to get started in January. However, if the production issues are worse or ongoing, the Government must already know and should come clean to manage public expectations accordingly.
Any PBers have inside knowledge?
Where there is regulation that restricts cross border trade it tends to be in specific professional services, particularly law.
But then again, we don't really have a single market in lawyers in the UK either, as - AFIUI, and I could be wrong - Scottish Advocates and English Barristers are not able perform each others' roles.
'The conclusion is that FTZs as originally conceived do not exist any more in the European Union.
The Commission does allow the establishment of free zones within its territory but its definition of free
zone is a very narrow one. Free zones are special areas within the customs territory of the Community
where goods are free of import duties, VAT and other import charges.'
Most of the free trade zones raised (like Hamburg) were in place before accession to the EU, and their benefits have been devalued successively since.
https://www.unescap.org/sites/default/files/pub_2377_fulltext.pdf#page=86 - the bit about the European Union starts on page 73.
https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/wrexham-factory-produce-millions-doses-19539566
At this stage it is unclear whether the new UK and South African variants of the virus are as much a threat as they have been made out to be, but if this does prove the case we will be indebted to the work of scientists in London and Porton Down, not Brussels.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-vaccine-the-only-game-in-town-to-end-lockdown-cycle-1.4447652
We've 4 wins on the trot and coming off a huge 6 days rest.
It's turning into a fascinating season at the top.
A Frenchman can bet with Ladbrokes in the UK, no?
The Tory grandee, who served in Mrs Thatcher’s Cabinet, said the prime minister’s personality ‘rapidly changed’ towards the end of her tenure, leading him to develop the ‘theory’ that she was displaying early symptoms of the condition.