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Trump’s reluctance to concede could hinder his party in the Georgia Runoffs – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 16 in General
imageTrump’s reluctance to concede could hinder his party in the Georgia Runoffs – politicalbetting.com

We are all aware of the mighty election battle that takes place in Georgia on January 5th in the runoff elections that could determine whether the Republicans or the Democrats control the Senate. If the Republicans hold the seats then they retain a majority. If the Democratic party wins both seats then with the casting vote of the Vice President, Kamala Harris they will have control albeit by narrowest of margins.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Meanwhile, Labour is calling for a national plan to roll out the vaccine. Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the vaccination programme will probably be the largest logistical operation since World War Two - and called for a plan setting out who will be eligible for a jab and when.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54953677

    Erhhh.....what do you think the Vaccine Task Force and JCVI remit is?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi-25-september-2020/jcvi-updated-interim-advice-on-priority-groups-for-covid-19-vaccination

    No, definite no plan...

    The UK Government has ordered 65m syringes from one manufacturer as part of preparations for a potential Covid-19 vaccine, due for delivery by mid-September.

    https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/clinical-areas/immunology-and-vaccines/government-orders-65m-syringes-ahead-of-potential-covid-19-vaccine/
  • Covid vaccine: Major new trial starts in UK

    A major trial of a vaccine to protect against Covid-19 has launched in the UK - the third such trial in the country.

    The jab - designed by the Belgian company Janssen - uses a genetically modified common cold virus to train the immune system.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54951650
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 51,201
    edited November 16
    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,066
    This is the most ominous of Trump’s election denying tweets so far.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134
    On topic, I expect Trump will have thrown in the towel by then, but Maga enthusiasts are perfectly capable of entertaining two contradictory thoughts at the same time, and there's also a tendency for the Trumpy parts of the coalition and the traditional conservative part of the coalition to each stick to the part of the story that they prefer, which is how he's come as far as he has.

    So I do think they can run with "Trump won the election" and "Stop the Democrats getting the one ring to rule them all" simultaneously.

    A bigger problem for the GOP is that Trump has effectively told his people not to do mail-in voting, which is OK for him (as his base will crawl to the polls over broken glass for him) but may not be so great for minor GOP senators. Given that both sides are going to have basically unlimited money and volunteers, I'm sure they'd rather turn them out over 3 weeks rather than relying on everyone finding time on the day.
  • Betfair prices on the American election:-

    Biden 1.07
    Democrats 1.06
    Biden PV 1.03
    Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.04
    Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.05
    Trump ECV 210-239 1.08
    Biden ECV 300-329 1.08
    Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.04
    Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.06
    Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.01

    AZ Dem 1.03
    GA Dem 1.05
    MI Dem 1.04
    NV Dem 1.04
    PA Dem 1.05
    WI Dem 1.06
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    In good news to wake up to, four astronauts are on their way up to the space station, on the first official SpaceX mission.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    I have raised a complaint escalation with Betfair about their ECV market.

    There is no sane or ethical justification for them failing to settle this market. It's sharp practice and leaves a bad smell.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,842
    Insomnia is a bit of a bore.... Been tired for days and still can’t bloody sleep.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    The easiest way to make motoring taxes "per mile" (like our auto insurance :smile: ) would be to abolish road tax / vehicle excise duty and increase fuel taxes slightly. It would be a boon to those who don't drive much, and a bane to those who live on the road.

    Remember: winners are never happy, and loser complain incessantly, so hard to see the upside.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    edited November 16
    By the way, the demographic shifts in Georgia are fascinating and explain why the state is swinging away from Trump towards the Democrats. John King at CNN nailed it: 'to win the US Presidency you have to win the suburbs.' Of course, a lot of Dem support comes from the inner cities too but if you want to break down demographic swing voters, it's not all about Cubans in Florida. It's about your King of the Hills.

    I think Ossoff will beat Perdue but that Loeffler will beat Warnock in the other to leave it 49-51.

    David Perdue has declined any further debates with Jon Ossoff after the latter so memorably eviscerated him in a video which went viral.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/15/politics/david-perdue-jon-ossoff-debate-georgia-runoff-election/index.html
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    The easiest way to make motoring taxes "per mile" (like our auto insurance :smile: ) would be to abolish road tax / vehicle excise duty and increase fuel taxes slightly. It would be a boon to those who don't drive much, and a bane to those who live on the road.

    Remember: winners are never happy, and loser complain incessantly, so hard to see the upside.
    Agreed, but how does that fix the issue that they want everyone to stop buying fuel and run electric cars?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    Cyclefree said:

    Insomnia is a bit of a bore.... Been tired for days and still can’t bloody sleep.

    I wake up at 4 am almost every day now. 5 hours sleep isn't the best.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    edited November 16
    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    First, I wouldn't bet a penny on Lewis Hamilton. This is one occasion when I will let my heart dictate. He has the personality of a slug and to me he's an unpleasant character. Besides, I find F1 motor racing the most boring activity in which the human race partakes. I write that as someone who has endured standing at Stowe Corner.

    Re. the markets, that's a non argument. 'It's settled when the results are final' are weasel-words, and you know it. Trump will go on whingeing until 2024 or the day he dies, whichever is the later. Perhaps Betfair will continue to use that as a shield to shirk their responsibilities. The result is now sorted beyond reasonable doubt.

    And, incidentally, I'm referring to their Sportsbook market so it is their actions as bookmaker not broker to which I refer.

    It's rubbish and unjustifiable.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    And the obviously winning sports 'personality' of the year is Marcus Rashford. By a million miles.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    Oh, and Spreadex settled the ECV market days ago.

    No excuse for Betfair. None.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,029
    Cyclefree said:

    Insomnia is a bit of a bore.... Been tired for days and still can’t bloody sleep.

    I wake up at 0445 every morning, like clockwork. I am very good at cat napping. Now off across the river in the dark by foot to Tesco by to catch their 6 am opening. It's the best time by far. Only me and the stackers, mostly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    And the obviously winning sports 'personality' of the year is Marcus Rashford. By a million miles.

    He plays for Man United. How many trophies have they won this year?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    First, I wouldn't bet a penny on Lewis Hamilton. This is one occasion when I will let my heart dictate. He has the personality of a slug and to me he's an unpleasant character. Besides, I find F1 motor racing the most boring activity in which the human race partakes. I write that as someone who has endured standing at Stowe Corner.

    Re. the markets, that's a non argument. 'It's settled when the results are final' are weasel-words, and you know it. Trump will go on whingeing until 2024 or the day he dies, whichever is the later. Perhaps Betfair will continue to use that as a shield to shirk their responsibilities. The result is now sorted beyond reasonable doubt.

    And, incidentally, I'm referring to their Sportsbook market so it is their actions as bookmaker not broker to which I refer.

    It's rubbish and unjustifiable.
    Ummm - if he dies before 2024, he will still go on whingeing?

    Is he going for the zombie apocalypse as well?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    edited November 16

    Oh, and Spreadex settled the ECV market days ago.

    No excuse for Betfair. None.

    We’re in the 95th minute of the game, and your team are 4-0 up. It will all be over soon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    edited November 16
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Doubtless why they are looking at road pricing in the first place. Rather than, say, taxing the electricity supplied through charging points.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    Re SPOTY, truthfully the winner should be either Jason Holder or the entire Windies team, because without their example to draw on there would have been no live sport anyway.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    I’m mildly diverted that people expect integrity from Betfair.

    It’s like expecting fidelity from Ryan Giggs. Touching but naive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    edited November 16
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    ydoethur said:

    I’m mildly diverted that people expect integrity from Betfair.

    It’s like expecting fidelity from Ryan Giggs. Touching but naive.

    I agree but we should have the betting equivalent of Trustpilot. Mike is putting something together on this topic.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    ydoethur said:

    Re SPOTY, truthfully the winner should be either Jason Holder or the entire Windies team, because without their example to draw on there would have been no live sport anyway.

    Yes they were marvellous. There is a team section, is there not?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.

    Yes, there’s a lot of road renewal required, and while huge sections of the M1 and M6 have been done in recent years there’s an awful lot more that will need doing soon.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    The easiest way to make motoring taxes "per mile" (like our auto insurance :smile: ) would be to abolish road tax / vehicle excise duty and increase fuel taxes slightly. It would be a boon to those who don't drive much, and a bane to those who live on the road.

    Remember: winners are never happy, and loser complain incessantly, so hard to see the upside.
    Agreed, but how does that fix the issue that they want everyone to stop buying fuel and run electric cars?
    Well, the electric car users won't be paying additional taxes, as it's all electricity for them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    edited November 16
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.
    OK, thanks.

    That isn’t going to improve the road maintenance/renewal, as you originally noted. It will probably see the Severn Bridge closed to vehicle traffic, for a start.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.

    Yes, there’s a lot of road renewal required, and while huge sections of the M1 and M6 have been done in recent years there’s an awful lot more that will need doing soon.
    Isn't the formula, if I recall correctly, a function of both weight and the area over which the weight is distributed?

    If contact patches are 25% bigger on average, that would even it out, no?

    (Of course, contact patches on vehicles like the i3 and the Prius are probably smaller.)
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 3,943
    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    Why is it a silly idea? This obviously with an eye to the future and to electric cars. Seems reasonable that those who drive the most should pay more.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.
    OK, thanks.

    That isn’t going to improve the road maintenance/renewal, as you originally noted. It will probably see the Severn Bridge closed to vehicle traffic, for a start.
    Does it have much more than local traffic on it now, you have to take a positive decision to go down that road that road and not just stay on the M4 for the SSC?

    Have they stopped talking about the Brynglas tunnels yet, and started digging? It’s nearly 25 years now, since the second bridge opened and shifted the bottleneck a few miles west.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.

    Yes, there’s a lot of road renewal required, and while huge sections of the M1 and M6 have been done in recent years there’s an awful lot more that will need doing soon.
    Isn't the formula, if I recall correctly, a function of both weight and the area over which the weight is distributed?

    If contact patches are 25% bigger on average, that would even it out, no?

    (Of course, contact patches on vehicles like the i3 and the Prius are probably smaller.)
    Correct. Which makes the problem worse, as most EVs have skinnier tyres to reduce rolling resistance.

    The shoes that do the most damage to a wooden floor are ladies’ stilettos.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.
    OK, thanks.

    That isn’t going to improve the road maintenance/renewal, as you originally noted. It will probably see the Severn Bridge closed to vehicle traffic, for a start.
    Does it have much more than local traffic on it now, you have to take a positive decision to go down that road that road and not just stay on the M4 for the SSC?

    Have they stopped talking about the Brynglas tunnels yet, and started digging? It’s nearly 25 years now, since the second bridge opened and shifted the bottleneck a few miles west.
    Nope:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48512697

    It still carries a fair amount of traffic. Enough that closing it altogether wouldn’t help congestion in Bristol.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    ydoethur said:

    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.

    That's doesn't really matter because there won't be any new mass market IC cars in 10 years time. They will be a niche product, if they are even legally permissible and priced accordingly.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 5,310
    edited November 16
    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
  • Sandpit said:

    And the obviously winning sports 'personality' of the year is Marcus Rashford. By a million miles.

    He plays for Man United. How many trophies have they won this year?
    He beat Boris in the FSM Cup Final. Twice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    Why is it a silly idea? This obviously with an eye to the future and to electric cars. Seems reasonable that those who drive the most should pay more.
    The devil is in the detail. The last such proposed scheme had every car with a government-mandated GPS, with a massive tracking database behind it, that charged up to £1.50 a mile at peak times.

    Given that the DVLA will already sell your name and address to any cowboy parking firm who gives them a number place, who’s to say this wouldn’t turn into a police state fanatic’s wet dream? (and result in a huge uptick in car thefts by people not wanting to be tracked, for whatever nefarious reason).

    Policymakers inevitably live and work in London or close to a station, and have never worked shifts in a low-paid job that required a car.

    The person who would benefit the most from any such scheme, is the rich guy who has to decide which of the fleet he’s going to take that day - he currently pays thousands in road tax.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,920
    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Indeed. To listen to Joe Biden you'd almost imagine he'd been elected president.
  • .
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    Why is it a silly idea? This obviously with an eye to the future and to electric cars. Seems reasonable that those who drive the most should pay more.
    The devil is in the detail. The last such proposed scheme had every car with a government-mandated GPS, with a massive tracking database behind it, that charged up to £1.50 a mile at peak times.

    Given that the DVLA will already sell your name and address to any cowboy parking firm who gives them a number place, who’s to say this wouldn’t turn into a police state fanatic’s wet dream? (and result in a huge uptick in car thefts by people not wanting to be tracked, for whatever nefarious reason).

    Policymakers inevitably live and work in London or close to a station, and have never worked shifts in a low-paid job that required a car.

    The person who would benefit the most from any such scheme, is the rich guy who has to decide which of the fleet he’s going to take that day - he currently pays thousands in road tax.
    On that last point -- road tax -- I gather from watching a YT car review a few hours ago that our road tax rates are a fraction of those charged in Europe, so that might be where the Treasury looks next.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    Why is it a silly idea? This obviously with an eye to the future and to electric cars. Seems reasonable that those who drive the most should pay more.
    The devil is in the detail. The last such proposed scheme had every car with a government-mandated GPS, with a massive tracking database behind it, that charged up to £1.50 a mile at peak times.

    Given that the DVLA will already sell your name and address to any cowboy parking firm who gives them a number place, who’s to say this wouldn’t turn into a police state fanatic’s wet dream? (and result in a huge uptick in car thefts by people not wanting to be tracked, for whatever nefarious reason).

    Policymakers inevitably live and work in London or close to a station, and have never worked shifts in a low-paid job that required a car.

    The person who would benefit the most from any such scheme, is the rich guy who has to decide which of the fleet he’s going to take that day - he currently pays thousands in road tax.
    And would continue to do so. No-one is going to abolish road tax.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.

    Yes, there’s a lot of road renewal required, and while huge sections of the M1 and M6 have been done in recent years there’s an awful lot more that will need doing soon.
    Isn't the formula, if I recall correctly, a function of both weight and the area over which the weight is distributed?

    If contact patches are 25% bigger on average, that would even it out, no?

    (Of course, contact patches on vehicles like the i3 and the Prius are probably smaller.)
    Correct. Which makes the problem worse, as most EVs have skinnier tyres to reduce rolling resistance.

    The shoes that do the most damage to a wooden floor are ladies’ stilettos.
    I can assure you that the contact patches on my EV are absolutely enormous. :smile:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    That’s the point, though, isn’t it: when we move to electric cars a significant slice of existing tax on motoring is effectively being scrapped.
    If they find ingenious new ways to tax electric cars, however, a significant slice of the incentive to switch disappears.
    Indeed. Heavy electric cars also wear out roads much faster than conventionally-powered cars do.

    Any scheme that simply adds more costs to the motorist (ie doesn’t scrap VED or make petrol noticeably cheaper at the same time) will be nearly as popular as the Poll Tax in Scotland.

    It will be interesting to see how Labour react to this proposal though. For all their love of environmentalism, the very last people to buy EVs are those who currently run an old banger that’s essential for them to get to a low-paid job
    Do they? I thought electric cars were lighter overall due to the lack of an ICE? But I could easily be wrong as I know very little about it. It is one thing I had been wondering about.

    The other thing we should all be aware of is that a significant chunk of our road network is now upwards of 60 years old, is carrying far more traffic at far greater weight than it was designed for and the concrete is crumbling. There’s going to have to be a huge renewal programme for things like bridges over the next 20 years and it ain’t gonna be cheap.
    An EV is currently around 25% heavier than an equivalent petrol car. The batteries are the heavy bit, from memory a Tesla has about 700kg of them. They are getting slowly better in energy density, but manufacturers are using those advances to pack more into the space for extra range, rather than reducing the weight of the car.

    Yes, there’s a lot of road renewal required, and while huge sections of the M1 and M6 have been done in recent years there’s an awful lot more that will need doing soon.
    Isn't the formula, if I recall correctly, a function of both weight and the area over which the weight is distributed?

    If contact patches are 25% bigger on average, that would even it out, no?

    (Of course, contact patches on vehicles like the i3 and the Prius are probably smaller.)
    Correct. Which makes the problem worse, as most EVs have skinnier tyres to reduce rolling resistance.

    The shoes that do the most damage to a wooden floor are ladies’ stilettos.
    I can assure you that the contact patches on my EV are absolutely enormous. :smile:
    Didn’t you get a Taycan? That’s quite the exception!
  • rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    The easiest way to make motoring taxes "per mile" (like our auto insurance :smile: ) would be to abolish road tax / vehicle excise duty and increase fuel taxes slightly. It would be a boon to those who don't drive much, and a bane to those who live on the road.

    Remember: winners are never happy, and loser complain incessantly, so hard to see the upside.
    What do you think about adding the mandated third party insurance to fuel duty and removing the legal requirement for car insurance?

    Guess it would be bad for your new business but from a policy point of view it would:

    make compliance automatic so no more uninsured drivers and related societal costs and govt subsidies for them
    reduce the generational wealth gap and increase employment mobility for the young
    reduce red tape giving both cost savings at govt level and save time for drivers
    possibly good for the environment, by making the price per mile more tangible and transparent
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 151
    Rashford is surely terrible value for SPORTY unless one believes the BBC will try to rig it on political grounds to put him on the ballot.Just in terms of soccer performance Grealish,Henderson and Vardy contributions have been much more substantial.
    Tyson Fury was long odds in February whilst Hollie Doyle is a viable longshot if the BBC publicise what is involved in her success.In France female jockeys are given positive discrimination with a gender weight allowance .In Britain they are not.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    edited November 16
    Sandpit said:




    Didn’t you get a Taycan? That’s quite the exception!

    Taycan tyre sizes are slightly smaller than a Panamera. 245/40, 285/40 vs 265/40,295 40

  • felixfelix Posts: 11,178

    .

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    Why is it a silly idea? This obviously with an eye to the future and to electric cars. Seems reasonable that those who drive the most should pay more.
    The devil is in the detail. The last such proposed scheme had every car with a government-mandated GPS, with a massive tracking database behind it, that charged up to £1.50 a mile at peak times.

    Given that the DVLA will already sell your name and address to any cowboy parking firm who gives them a number place, who’s to say this wouldn’t turn into a police state fanatic’s wet dream? (and result in a huge uptick in car thefts by people not wanting to be tracked, for whatever nefarious reason).

    Policymakers inevitably live and work in London or close to a station, and have never worked shifts in a low-paid job that required a car.

    The person who would benefit the most from any such scheme, is the rich guy who has to decide which of the fleet he’s going to take that day - he currently pays thousands in road tax.
    On that last point -- road tax -- I gather from watching a YT car review a few hours ago that our road tax rates are a fraction of those charged in Europe, so that might be where the Treasury looks next.
    Dpends where you are in Spain my car tax is paid to the local council all €42 of it!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 4,190
    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Very good. Thanks for posting. If I had a vote I`d struggle to vote Dem at the moment - unless it was to unseat a giant orange turd like Trump. That pretty much sums up the 2020 election.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    The easiest way to make motoring taxes "per mile" (like our auto insurance :smile: ) would be to abolish road tax / vehicle excise duty and increase fuel taxes slightly. It would be a boon to those who don't drive much, and a bane to those who live on the road.

    Remember: winners are never happy, and loser complain incessantly, so hard to see the upside.
    What do you think about adding the mandated third party insurance to fuel duty and removing the legal requirement for car insurance?

    Guess it would be bad for your new business but from a policy point of view it would:

    make compliance automatic so no more uninsured drivers and related societal costs and govt subsidies for them
    reduce the generational wealth gap and increase employment mobility for the young
    reduce red tape giving both cost savings at govt level and save time for drivers
    possibly good for the environment, by making the price per mile more tangible and transparent
    In Japan they bundle the mandatory third-party insurance with the MOT, although that doesn't really reduce red tape since most people also buy additional optional insurance.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,397
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
    But is driving a car a sport? I don't see it
  • eekeek Posts: 9,606

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
    But is driving a car a sport? I don't see it
    Isn't the difference between a sport and a game is that you can be killed in sport but not in a game.

    It may be in a car but F1 is definitely a sport if risk to life is part of the definition.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,397
    Cyclefree said:

    Insomnia is a bit of a bore.... Been tired for days and still can’t bloody sleep.

    Join the club
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
    But is driving a car a sport? I don't see it
    Today's Guardian describes Hamilton's record-breaking achievement as an "enormity" so they evidently agree with you.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
    But is driving a car a sport? I don't see it
    Yes.
    Otherwise the only sports are those which don't use any tools at all - which would rule out golf and tennis, for example.

    F1 certainly requires levels of fitness, reflexes, natural talent and expertise as great as any other professional sport.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,397
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
    But is driving a car a sport? I don't see it
    Isn't the difference between a sport and a game is that you can be killed in sport but not in a game.

    It may be in a car but F1 is definitely a sport if risk to life is part of the definition.
    I was at a dinner party a couple of years ago and expressed my view about motor racing not being a sport. I didn't know at the time that the guy sitting next to me was the chairman of Silverstone
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    edited November 16
    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Very good. Thanks for posting. If I had a vote I`d struggle to vote Dem at the moment - unless it was to unseat a giant orange turd like Trump. That pretty much sums up the 2020 election.
    Maher has been saying the same thing about ‘cancel culture’ and freedom of speech for years now, he’s a staunch Democrat but sees them talking to themselves and appealing to a small but vocal minority on Twitter.

    Comedians in general have been good on this stuff, see also Dave Chapelle. They were among the first people to realise the power of Trump, as they toured the small towns of the country and saw a very different world to that in NY and CA.

    The analysis of what just happened says that people voted for not-Trump, but didn’t vote positively for Democrats elsewhere.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,365
    F1 drivers are very much athletes, even if you don't consider their discipline to be a sport. Jody Scheckter won the 1981 series of world superstars:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstars#World_Superstars

    And Jenson Button was (is?) a very competitive triathlete.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 3,943
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tories go with this idea and they will be sub 30 in the polls in no time....and Dishy Rishi be about as popular as £15 PPV premier league games.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951969/Rishi-Sunak-considers-plan-charge-motorists-mile-drive-Britains-roads.html

    That’s the silliest of silly ideas, that has been abandoned once before as unworkable and hugely unpopular.

    Any scheme would need to be clearly revenue neutral, and require existing taxes on motoring to be scrapped rather than built on - and no massive spyware or tracking databases.

    Maybe, after the pandemic effects susbside, a Conservative chancellor might start taking a very hard look at what the government is spending, rather than simply how to raise more money in taxes.
    Why is it a silly idea? This obviously with an eye to the future and to electric cars. Seems reasonable that those who drive the most should pay more.
    The devil is in the detail. The last such proposed scheme had every car with a government-mandated GPS, with a massive tracking database behind it, that charged up to £1.50 a mile at peak times.

    Given that the DVLA will already sell your name and address to any cowboy parking firm who gives them a number place, who’s to say this wouldn’t turn into a police state fanatic’s wet dream? (and result in a huge uptick in car thefts by people not wanting to be tracked, for whatever nefarious reason).

    Policymakers inevitably live and work in London or close to a station, and have never worked shifts in a low-paid job that required a car.

    The person who would benefit the most from any such scheme, is the rich guy who has to decide which of the fleet he’s going to take that day - he currently pays thousands in road tax.
    I don’t really have a problem with any of that tbh. No one knows what the rate will be set at, so throwing around made up figures isn’t really helpful. As for tracking, the government/police can already easily trace vehicles across the country via number plate reading cameras.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,324
    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Indeed. To listen to Joe Biden you'd almost imagine he'd been elected president.
    And that the Dems had a net gain of seats in the House since 2016.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think this is a very good point by Mike and a great tip with SMarkets.

    I'm on Ossoff at 2/1 with Betfair Sportsbook.

    Speaking of Betfair, they are still not settling up on Biden 300-329 ECVs. I think this is really poor and I have complained. What with this and the kind of shenanigans that Mike highlights I am not impressed with them right now.

    Saying the same thing every morning won’t make Betfair settle early. Remember they’re a broker not a bookmaker, it’s not their money they’ll be paying out. It’ll be settled when the results are final.

    When they do finally pay out, put everything of Lewis Hamilton for the Sports Personality award, he’s 1.85 on Betfair at the moment, but who else has any significant sporting achievements this year?
    Ronnie O'Sullivan won the world snooker title (again).
    Tyson Fury but he's not fought since his heavyweight title win in February so memories may have faded.

    Two I've previously suggested are worth looking at are Marcus Rashford and Hollie Doyle.

    Rashford is 3.65 to win but 2.32 to be in the top three, which is unusually generous. The question with Rashford is whether he is nominated. There are not many other footballers to choose from, though I leave to you to judge if HMG will lean on the BBC. I think the opposition to Rashford came from Gove and Cummings, so this may be less of a fear now the latter has departed.

    The BBC will want some women on the shortlist and I think Hollie Doyle (she is a jockey) has the best claim here. She has just ridden more than 100 winners for the second season running and blah blah blah -- I'm not trying to convince a jury to vote for her. Racing is an ITV sport, though, if that still matters. She is 48 on Betfair and 40/1 with Hills.
    Good call on O’Sullivan, a BBC sport too. Yes, I’d forgotten about Fury, February was indeed an awful long time ago!!

    I can’t see a Rashford nomination making it past Tim Davie: it would be making the whole event political the week before Christmas, and give huge ammunition to those opposed to the BBC. I can see them giving him the Gary Linekar Woke award or something similar, or have him collect something on behalf of all sportsmen protesting racism this year.
    That is an important point about Rashford and politics but I think is less of a factor than you suggest. First, because Dominic Cummings has left, and I think it was he who objected to feeding the wee'uns; it is reminiscent of his and Gove's rejection of Jamie Oliver back when they ran Education. Second, surely a special award would seem more politically controversial than one on which the public votes.

    But I do think that uncertainty is why Rashford's top three price is so generous. Rashford is 2.32 to place: both Fury and O'Sullivan are odds-on to place despite being several times Rashford's win price.
    The special award would allow them to take time to mention sportspeople using their profile for good etc, without taking away from the main award which is supposed to be for sporting achievement.

    So we’ve got a flat race between three horses and a car, that the car will win if it’s allowed to compete.

    I’m betting on Hamilton for now, or rather topping up small bets from earlier in the year, then waiting for the nominations.
    But is driving a car a sport? I don't see it
    Isn't the difference between a sport and a game is that you can be killed in sport but not in a game.

    It may be in a car but F1 is definitely a sport if risk to life is part of the definition.
    I was at a dinner party a couple of years ago and expressed my view about motor racing not being a sport. I didn't know at the time that the guy sitting next to me was the chairman of Silverstone
    :D

    Since humans started making cars, there have been competitions to see who could build the fastest one! Today’s F1 drivers are genuinely athletic, they spend several hours a day in the gym and can lose a couple of kilos as sweat during a race. They’re putting their life on the line each time they get into the car, although thankfully fewer get killed or injured now than in the past.

    Meets most definitions of sport to me, as I’m sure your dinner party neighbour agreed.

    You can also bet on it, which I’m sure meets your approval and is why the subject comes up for discussion on your forum.

    Not to mention that tens of thousands of people work in the multi-billion pound motorsport industry, and the U.K. leads the world in the cutting edge technology. Mercedes might be a German company, but the F1 outfit is entirely British, 1,500 highly-skilled people getting two cars ready to race every other Sunday.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,324
    Trump is going to get under Romney's vote share again isn't he?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 4,190
    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Very good. Thanks for posting. If I had a vote I`d struggle to vote Dem at the moment - unless it was to unseat a giant orange turd like Trump. That pretty much sums up the 2020 election.
    Maher has been saying the same thing about ‘cancel culture’ and freedom of speech for years now, he’s a staunch Democrat but sees them talking to themselves and appealing to a small but vocal minority on Twitter.

    Comedians in general have been good on this stuff, see also Dave Chapelle. They were among the first people to realise the power of Trump, as they toured the small towns of the country and saw a very different world to that in NY and CA.

    The analysis of what just happened says that people voted for not-Trump, but didn’t vote positively for Democrats elsewhere.
    Sounds like I`m with Maher then. (Yes, I`ve been aware of Dave Chapelle for a while - excellent.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860
    edited November 16
    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Very good. Thanks for posting. If I had a vote I`d struggle to vote Dem at the moment - unless it was to unseat a giant orange turd like Trump. That pretty much sums up the 2020 election.
    Maher has been saying the same thing about ‘cancel culture’ and freedom of speech for years now, he’s a staunch Democrat but sees them talking to themselves and appealing to a small but vocal minority on Twitter.

    Comedians in general have been good on this stuff, see also Dave Chapelle. They were among the first people to realise the power of Trump, as they toured the small towns of the country and saw a very different world to that in NY and CA.

    The analysis of what just happened says that people voted for not-Trump, but didn’t vote positively for Democrats elsewhere.
    Maher appears to be doing his own little bit of cancelling when he ridicules the term Latinx.
    While it's true that its use in Hispanic communities is relatively rare, it's a term of self-identification for some.
    https://www.history.com/news/hispanic-latino-latinx-chicano-background

    I take the view that you call people what they want to be called. No doubt the Democrats will come round to that in time.
    It's a principle that seems quite antipathetic to Trump's version of Republicanism.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 9,213
    Alistair said:

    Trump is going to get under Romney's vote share again isn't he?

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,926
    Why don't Downing Street take the novel step of insisting people wear masks in no10? And set an example in public by wearing them in Press conferences and the like? What's the point about being able to express astonishment of the cavalier attitude of the White House, when we're no better here whatsoever INCLUDING our supposed 'expert' chief scientists and medical officers? At least in the White House they have 'quickie' testing programmes.

    All the evidence has been around for months and months that when in indoor spaces it is not sufficient to simply stay 2 metres apart from everyone. Masks and good ventilation and not spending too long in the same place are also crucial.

    And then we get pictures of Johnson having meetings with casual contacts where they don't even do the 2m thing.

    It's almost as if they've made no serious investigations/not taken on board research into how the virus actually spreads, or how it's most likely to spread.

    It's no wonder we are still stuck with the implementing the crude blunt instruments of blanket lockdowns, which only keep certain activities open on the basis of need and not on the basis of risk.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 6,520
    Just stopping in (despite promising myself post US election there would be less pb.com) to say I really enjoyed the thread header from Casino_Royale previously.

    As a general rule - votes must have consequences. Brexit I think has frayed that social compact but ultimately it has been respected. The resentment at the Brexit vote being ignored must be drained by actually implementing Brexit.

    So in one sense, I actually feel more confident about British democracy, even if I feel much less confident about Johnson. At some point the public will judge him on results. And his excuses of unelected judges, the BBC, the courts will start to fall flat. I hope.
  • In the latest Brexit triumph, it looks like the government is on course to do huge damage to the fishing industry.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,926
    Alistair said:

    Chris said:

    Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Indeed. To listen to Joe Biden you'd almost imagine he'd been elected president.
    And that the Dems had a net gain of seats in the House since 2016.
    Yep. It's one thing to complain that they should/could be doing better. But they did actually win! When the odds due to Republican control of state legislatures are still massive against them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624
    Scott_xP said:
    Not if Sunak is in Downing Street he wont be.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Sandpit said:

    Oh, and Spreadex settled the ECV market days ago.

    No excuse for Betfair. None.

    We’re in the 95th minute of the game, and your team are 4-0 up. It will all be over soon.
    More like there's one game to go in the league and the team you bet on is 15 points clear at the top.
    But the manager of the team in second is muttering darkly about points deductions despite there being no reason whatsoever to imagine that will happen.

    As MR says, there is no excuse.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,926

    In the latest Brexit triumph, it looks like the government is on course to do huge damage to the fishing industry.

    Maybe it really is all about protecting our fish! Preventing the EU from accessing them, and killing off an UK fishing industry that might do likewise.
  • Sandpit said:

    Bill Maher, on why the Democrats need to get over themselves, why 10m more people voted Trump than in 2016, why they lost seats in the House - and why Twitter isn’t America.

    Brilliant.
  • Simple.
    The people involved aren't really grownups.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,950
    "Covid was circulating in Italy in September 2019, new study shows - meaning virus spread from China to Europe months earlier than previously thought"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951241/Coronavirus-emerged-Italy-earlier-thought-Italian-study-shows.html
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,026

    In the latest Brexit triumph, it looks like the government is on course to do huge damage to the fishing industry.

    Wow who could have predicted this?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134
    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was circulating in Italy in September 2019, new study shows - meaning virus spread from China to Europe months earlier than previously thought"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951241/Coronavirus-emerged-Italy-earlier-thought-Italian-study-shows.html

    r/covid19 thread on this, since the Daily Mail isn't always the greatest place to go for science reporting:
    https://old.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/juabvy/unexpected_detection_of_sarscov2_antibodies_in/
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,026
    They're just not serious people. In good times, that is an impediment to effective government. In a crisis like now, it is catastrophic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,950

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was circulating in Italy in September 2019, new study shows - meaning virus spread from China to Europe months earlier than previously thought"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951241/Coronavirus-emerged-Italy-earlier-thought-Italian-study-shows.html

    r/covid19 thread on this, since the Daily Mail isn't always the greatest place to go for science reporting:
    https://old.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/juabvy/unexpected_detection_of_sarscov2_antibodies_in/
    Thanks.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 621
    alex_ said:

    Why don't Downing Street take the novel step of insisting people wear masks in no10? And set an example in public by wearing them in Press conferences and the like? What's the point about being able to express astonishment of the cavalier attitude of the White House, when we're no better here whatsoever INCLUDING our supposed 'expert' chief scientists and medical officers? At least in the White House they have 'quickie' testing programmes.

    All the evidence has been around for months and months that when in indoor spaces it is not sufficient to simply stay 2 metres apart from everyone. Masks and good ventilation and not spending too long in the same place are also crucial.

    And then we get pictures of Johnson having meetings with casual contacts where they don't even do the 2m thing.

    It's almost as if they've made no serious investigations/not taken on board research into how the virus actually spreads, or how it's most likely to spread.

    It's no wonder we are still stuck with the implementing the crude blunt instruments of blanket lockdowns, which only keep certain activities open on the basis of need and not on the basis of risk.

    Probably all good points, but speaking from personal experience, he’d still be told to self-isolate. My contact occurred with both of us wearing visors in a research lab. Naturally I avoided getting the bug, but I’m still isolating (last day today). The precautions don’t seem to count in the self isolation rules.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 28,194
    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was circulating in Italy in September 2019, new study shows - meaning virus spread from China to Europe months earlier than previously thought"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8951241/Coronavirus-emerged-Italy-earlier-thought-Italian-study-shows.html

    That’s rather worrying, given that we first started talking about this weird virus in China early in January. It was out there for six months before we realised.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,735

    They're just not serious people. In good times, that is an impediment to effective government. In a crisis like now, it is catastrophic.
    Boris is "bursting with antibodies", which is very reassuring.
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