It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
Not sure that particular criticism works. I feel like most people expected a second wave, albeit hoping we'd be better prepared than we have been, so a repeat was always a possibility.
I wonder if now having a huge testing capacity has negative consequences.
If we did half as many tests then there would be far fewer reported positive cases.
With the innumerate in government less panicky.
I can see the theory, but there's always reports of 'estimated numbers of cases' and the like whatever the headline figure is, so it wouldn't prevent panic, especially if other indicators like admissions and deaths ramped up, as they have.
I suspect many in government are functionally innumerate, have no attention to detail and have goldfish minds about previous predictions.
They also like to look as if they know what is being discussed even when they don't.
So put some extrapolating to infinity graphs in front of them, talk scary numbers, make some claims about how terrible things will be while using technical vocabulary they don't understand and the politicians will nod along and sign off on anything you want doing.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
Given the US election is on, I've been replaying Democracy 3, and had a bit fun trying to create a religious police state, but which takes environmental issues very seriously. Turns out it is pretty hard to do so without being assassinated, and pay for things.
The Massachusetts Bay Colony certainly fit the definition of religious police state definition. AND IIRC they had some fairly stringent environmental regulations, at least for the 17th century.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
Why should I apologise for stating something that is obvious and actually includes myself as a pensioner who is looking at an unjustified triple lock increase of 2.5% in my pension next April
Additionally two of my family work in the public sector and understand that it is private sector jobs that are disappearing
Private ba. Public arguments are childish. We’re all dependent on each other. Always have been, always will be. Pitting one sector against another is unhelpful. A diversion from the omnishambles he Conservatives have delivered.
Sorry you cannot see the reality of what is happening and far more importantly the financial implications for the public services we all depend on going forward
The reality is this government by prevaricating has caused unnecessary economic damage and we will all suffer. Perhaps it has been spending a bit too much time on its cold, hard Brexit dreams, again a device to cause entirely avoidable economic harm.
EXCLUSIVE: National security nightmare of Hunter Biden's abandoned laptop containing phone numbers for the Clintons, Secret Service officers and most of the Obama cabinet plus his sex and drug addictions - all secured by the password Hunter02
Without being able to refute them, most of these stories sound extremely suspicious for one simple reason.
If they were true, why weren't they reported in the US weeks ago when they might have actually made a difference? And why are they being revealed by the Daily Mail?
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
Without a private sector there would be no roads.
What I find so funny is not that people don't understand that. But that they think the average voter doesn't.
Without a public sector there would also be no roads, it's a relationship that relies on both parties. It isn't one or the other.
Without a public sector in 2008 the banking system would have collapsed.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
Why should I apologise for stating something that is obvious and actually includes myself as a pensioner who is looking at an unjustified triple lock increase of 2.5% in my pension next April
Additionally two of my family work in the public sector and understand that it is private sector jobs that are disappearing
Private ba. Public arguments are childish. We’re all dependent on each other. Always have been, always will be. Pitting one sector against another is unhelpful. A diversion from the omnishambles he Conservatives have delivered.
Sorry you cannot see the reality of what is happening and far more importantly the financial implications for the public services we all depend on going forward
The reality is this government by prevaricating has caused unnecessary economic damage and we will all suffer. Perhaps it has been spending a bit too much time on its cold, hard Brexit dreams, again a device to cause entirely avoidable economic harm.
Always comes back to brexit with some posters
The mind boggles why anyone would rush that through in the middle of a serious crisis. It’s the government’s obsession that’s the problem.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
Why should I apologise for stating something that is obvious and actually includes myself as a pensioner who is looking at an unjustified triple lock increase of 2.5% in my pension next April
Additionally two of my family work in the public sector and understand that it is private sector jobs that are disappearing
Private ba. Public arguments are childish. We’re all dependent on each other. Always have been, always will be. Pitting one sector against another is unhelpful. A diversion from the omnishambles he Conservatives have delivered.
Sorry you cannot see the reality of what is happening and far more importantly the financial implications for the public services we all depend on going forward
The reality is this government by prevaricating has caused unnecessary economic damage and we will all suffer. Perhaps it has been spending a bit too much time on its cold, hard Brexit dreams, again a device to cause entirely avoidable economic harm.
Always comes back to brexit with some posters
The mind boggles why anyone would rush that through in the middle of a serious crisis. It’s the government’s obsession that’s the problem.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
Both sectors depend on each other.
Spot on, I am not pro one or the other.
I happen to think there are lousy public sector workers and organisations and there are equally lousy private sector workers and organisations.
I could spend tomorrow waxing lyrical about the inefficiencies of the big red phone company but I feel I might bore people here!
Mike - almost irrespective of the subject matter of a particular thread as indicated by the header, we have two enormous stories running side by side at present - the COVID-19 Crisis and the American POTUS Elections. To enable PBers to navigate the subject on which they wish to concentrate, please could you try to arrange things so that for the next four days or so we have two main threads running simultaneously with a request written in bold under each one requesting posters to confine themselves to the subject matter indicated by the thread header.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
Both sectors depend on each other.
I agree but when one sector is decimated the consequences for the other are seriously undermined
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
And as someone paying my taxes in the private sector, I want someone in the public sector (or working on behalf of the public sector) to empty my bins.
There will be public sector job cuts on the horizon in the same way as people in the private sector are losing their jobs. It's not a competition. I have had very few new customers, public or private sector since March. We're all up S*** Street!
Another point of course is what happened to "masks are hugely effective in cutting transmission and dangerous infection rates"? Now i believe that is true. But it defies belief that having established that, we are now reverting to an identical blanket lockdown policy (x schools) that we had in March. Surely masks should allow (at least) the non-essential shops to remain open. Allow a bit more scope for using public transport. Definitely allow outside activities to continue.
We've had a government which for months has been arguing that their approach needed to balance the health situation with the needs of the economy. And have deliberately delayed extreme measures to pursue that end. And within two days they've just chucked it all out of the window. At ENORMOUS cost to the country's mental, physical and economic well being.
Wearing a mask when going into shops and other enclosed spaces with a changing cast of other people is AOK PROVIDED
a) you're picky about where you stick your (covered) nose; and
b) you do NOT linger within, because the longer you do, the greater your risk.
Note that the configuration and especially size of the space is important. By size I mean as measured in three dimensions, as height as a lot to do with the cubic footage of AIR within the enclosure.
Thus I am way more comfortable shopping in large, open-space grocery store with high ceilings (esp. early in morning when crowd is less) than in a pokey little place with cramped walkways.
Note that on Election Eve will be attending small cocktail reception (under a tent) with folks I work with, followed by a small dinner party in a fancy restaurant (haven't been to one of them OR a greasy spoon since St Patrick's Day) in a mid-sized but HIGH-ceiling room, with waiter required by law to wear masks.
As shall I when not actively on the gargle or stuffing my pie hole!
Nothing is zero risk. But when the economic well being of the country is at stake, the Govt should be trying harder to keep low risk businesses open. Not just shutting them all to make the "messaging" simpler.
Would agree - PROVIDED the definition of "low risk" is NOT so loose and loop-holed as to be itself a serious risk.
Anyway, at the shindig I described, do plan to take frequent smoke breaks outside (even though I do NOT smoke) and will NOT be lingering over dessert and coffee.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
Both sectors depend on each other.
Spot on, I am not pro one or the other.
I happen to think there are lousy public sector workers and organisations and there are equally lousy private sector workers and organisations.
I could spend tomorrow waxing lyrical about the inefficiencies of the big red phone company but I feel I might bore people here!
Having worked in both, they’re both essentially the same. It’s a dirty little secret that certain political ideologues really can’t handle.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
I thought the public/ private debate was dead and buried years ago.
I deal with local authority refuse collectors across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They empty your bins for not much money, now you probably think they are ill-educated so why pay them more than we need to. Just after the Pheonix Four collapsed MGRover and helped themselves to not insubstantial amounts of money, many well qualified time- served engineers lost their jobs. I met many former MG employees who retrained as refuse vehicle drivers. So screwed by the private sector, screwed in the public sector.
One thing I have learned over the years in local authorities is that every now and again a journeyman is given a Head of Department/ Service job. Their brief is to save money, so how to save money in a labour intensive environment? Sack the Labour! What I see is this, in a department of 100 refuse collectors, a new broom sacks 20 to 30 of them, the new broom gets a gold star and moves onto a promotion at another local authority. Why not? They have just saved a 25% labour bill. But what happens next? The service starts to fail, agency staff are taken on (at a higher cost) to make up the lost service. Someone sees the agency labour bill and panics, the agency staff are made permanent and are put on the books, the staff compliment is back to 100. Then a year or two later a journeyman gets a Head of Service job...
So give it up. It is hard everywhere these days. And I say that as someone who ploughs my own private furrow.
Why on earth do you think I disrespect public sector workers or value them less
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
Both sectors depend on each other.
Spot on, I am not pro one or the other.
I happen to think there are lousy public sector workers and organisations and there are equally lousy private sector workers and organisations.
I could spend tomorrow waxing lyrical about the inefficiencies of the big red phone company but I feel I might bore people here!
Having worked in both, they’re both essentially the same. It’s a dirty little secret that certain political ideologues really can’t handle.
I've only ever worked in the private sector, filthy capitalist I am but I am absolutely sure the public sector could not be more inefficient than some of the departments in the big red company.
Like having to raise a ticket with an Indian team so I could speak to the IT team who were literally sat next to me.
EXCLUSIVE: National security nightmare of Hunter Biden's abandoned laptop containing phone numbers for the Clintons, Secret Service officers and most of the Obama cabinet plus his sex and drug addictions - all secured by the password Hunter02
Without being able to refute them, most of these stories sound extremely suspicious for one simple reason.
If they were true, why weren't they reported in the US weeks ago when they might have actually made a difference? And why are they being revealed by the Daily Mail?
"And why are they being revealed by the Daily Mail?"
EXCLUSIVE: National security nightmare of Hunter Biden's abandoned laptop containing phone numbers for the Clintons, Secret Service officers and most of the Obama cabinet plus his sex and drug addictions - all secured by the password Hunter02
Without being able to refute them, most of these stories sound extremely suspicious for one simple reason.
If they were true, why weren't they reported in the US weeks ago when they might have actually made a difference? And why are they being revealed by the Daily Mail?
"And why are they being revealed by the Daily Mail?"
To sell copies of . . . the Daily Mail!
Well obviously. I mean, why aren't they being revealed in the US. Or are they. These stories seem to me to be a lot more explicit and potentially damaging that the more general innuendo that is being reported.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
You do know that a lot of the decent roads in this country have their origins as for profit turnpikes?
Can't believe Captain Hindsight is bleating on about the lockdown
He wanted two weeks
Boris has shown clear leadership with four weeks plus a clear route out!
Yeah, whatever.
It is a reasonable point though.
If Drakeford's two weeker fails and Boris's four weeker is a success ...
Are you serious?
The point isn't Drakeford has made a massive error by only locking down for two weeks (although it may come to pass that two weeks was too short). The point is, Johnson claimed a full lockdown was counter productive and now because he has had to make a U-turn his lockdown has to be longer than it might have otherwise been, had he locked down earlier. Johnson's beef with the Welsh lockdown was it is 17 days too long- not two weeks too short!
Man, I can't cope with some of the utter nonsensical comments on here tonight. Good night!
I would have thought that within-reason optimism was a duty of leadership, and given the absolute infantility of the press throughout - "Are we nearly there yet? Why do I have to tidy my room again?" - as a parent I have a huge amount of sympathy with the "whatever it takes to shut the little buggers up for 5 minutes" approach.
It's been obviously necessary for weeks - there will be a debate on whether Johnson should be praised for getting a grip or condemned for vacillating, but I thinhk that most people won't think of it in political terms at all - just a measure compelled by reality.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
You do know that a lot of the decent roads in this country have their origins as for profit turnpikes?
That's really got nothing to do with the expense of their upkeep today. If they were infrastructure that had been built, and now just sat there without needing maintenance, your point would hold.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
You do know that a lot of the decent roads in this country have their origins as for profit turnpikes?
That was then...
Look at the M6Toll road, Half empty because people wont pay for it. I would be very surprised if anymore private roads occur agin.
It's been obviously necessary for weeks - there will be a debate on whether Johnson should be praised for getting a grip or condemned for vacillating, but I thinhk that most people won't think of it in political terms at all - just a measure compelled by reality.
Well quite. But an avoidable reality, with extremely serious implications.
Can't say I think it is unnecessary hurt. Someone who would take or defend (even in mealy mouthed fashion) action in response cartoons may need a bit of emotional hurt and pain by taking such offense. Pain teaches us lessons.
His explanation is so much phooey. It’s cowardice, plain and simple, dressed up in the language of politeness in the hope that the bully won’t come after him too.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
You do know that a lot of the decent roads in this country have their origins as for profit turnpikes?
That was then...
Look at the M6Toll road, Half empty because people wont pay for it. I would be very surprised if anymore private roads occur agin.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
Why should I apologise for stating something that is obvious and actually includes myself as a pensioner who is looking at an unjustified triple lock increase of 2.5% in my pension next April
Additionally two of my family work in the public sector and understand that it is private sector jobs that are disappearing
Big G no need for you to apologise
You are one of the few posters on here with decent values.
Too many hard left on here glorying in the Covid just to try to undermine the government!
It's been obviously necessary for weeks - there will be a debate on whether Johnson should be praised for getting a grip or condemned for vacillating, but I thinhk that most people won't think of it in political terms at all - just a measure compelled by reality.
Nick - Do you believe EVERYTHING except "essential" activity should be shut down. Or do you believe that over the course of the last six months we should have learnt enough about this virus and how it spreads to be able to better target measures where they actually make a difference? And i'm not talking here about heated debates on whether pubs and restaurants are major spreaders or not. But mainly outdoor activities that even the most committed lockdowner would probably struggle to attach hardly any risk whatsoever, and whose closure will do huge unnecessary long term damage.
I cited the examples earlier of London Zoo and Kew Gardens - which i'm sure are causes close to your own heart and which fund and support crucial conservation activities around the world - the loss of which support is incalculable.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
You do know that a lot of the decent roads in this country have their origins as for profit turnpikes?
That was then...
Look at the M6Toll road, Half empty because people wont pay for it. I would be very surprised if anymore private roads occur agin.
A bit simplistic? Half-emptiness is what people are paying for.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
You do know that a lot of the decent roads in this country have their origins as for profit turnpikes?
That was then...
Look at the M6Toll road, Half empty because people wont pay for it. I would be very surprised if anymore private roads occur agin.
A bit simplistic? Half-emptiness is what people are paying for.
Well quite. The only issue with the M6 Toll road is whether it covers its costs. Nobody in France objects to the toll motorways. Most of which are in better condition than those still maintained at public expense.
Hmm - Trump does seem to be ahead in the last few polls there, and this one has a respectable record, I believe. A point that doesn't seem to be made widely enough is one familiar to anyone who's done knock-up on election day: you simply don't get everyone out voting, no matter how many helpers you have. Stuff happens and 10-20% of the people who told you they'd definitely vote actually don't, because they've twisted an ankle or their sister isn't well or a hundred other reasons. Calculations that say "Biden has a 70-30 lead in the votes cast so far, but that will be balanced by Trump having 75-25 in the ones not yet cast" aren't really in the real world.
It confirms what I have been saying for a few days
People love the idea of sitting at home on 80% wages for doing nothing?
It is more than that
Huge numbers are public sector or local authority employees or are pensioners all of whom have no financial penalties by staying at home, while the private sector is decimated, along with the tax revenues that go a long way to paying for the public sector
Big tax rises are coming down the line for everyone
Here we go again, the myth repeated. The vast majority of public sector and local authority employees are not sitting at home on furlough - they are working. Most have face-to-face roles - you may even see them emptying your bins, staffing your hospitals, teaching your grandchildren, or cremating the dead. Some are working at home. Not very many are on furlough.
I was not suggesting they are on furlough, quite the opposite
They are guaranteed their jobs and pensions and as with pensioners will not see any loss of income
I do not expect any public sector workers to loss their jobs, but on the other hand the private sector are looking at millions of job loses
Which public sector jobs would you like to see cut?
None.
However there is an unfairness that the private sector are taking this huge hit while many others are unaffected job wise
Amazon are taking a huge hit. Hmmmm.
You know that is not what I mean
Hospitality, leisure and travel are being decimated
Private sector vs. Public sector is such an outdated argument. Tory Stone Age nonsense. Irrelevant, unhelpful and another attempt to divide people.
Today of all days, Tories ought to show a little humility and seek to build bridges. The odd apology might go down well.
The average voter understands that the private sector pays for the public sector.
The odd apology from those cheering on a lockdown to those who will lose their businesses, after supporting the public sector, wouldn't go amiss.
Without a public sector providing infrastructure like roads, etc. the private sector would cease to function. The relationship can't purely judged on economic grounds.
Without a private sector there would be no roads.
What I find so funny is not that people don't understand that. But that they think the average voter doesn't.
Without a public sector there would also be no roads, it's a relationship that relies on both parties. It isn't one or the other.
Without a public sector in 2008 the banking system would have collapsed.
The private sector relies on Limited Liability which is a creation of the state.
Kudos to the Conservatives on here who are boiling in a rage tonight. It's a rare talent, and entertaining. It's been ten years of Conservative rule, you got a thumping majority less than a year ago, and here you are trying to blame someone -- anyone -- else. It's a great look.
Given the green agenda and massive economic problems, I wouldn't rule out road pricing / tolls coming in.
When the big switch to electric cars does happen there's a lot of missing tax revenue. An advantage of taxing driving is that it's hard for people to avoid the tax - but then that also makes it unpopular.
Definitely a problem, but probably not until the next but one Chancellor at least.
Trump will likely hold Iowa and Ohio and now probably Arizona on the latest polls, I think North Carolina and Georgia and Texas will narrowly stay with him too in the end, Wisconsin and NE02 will likely go to Biden, Michigan probably too but Trump has a slim chance there and it will all come down to Florida and Pennsylvania as all the other Trump 2016 states will stay Trump and all the Hillary 2016 states will go to Biden
Has the PM just been on telling people up to 4000 people a day might die and across Europe cases are skyrocketing causing everywhere to lockdown due to a killer pandemic....maybe I just dreamt it.
Can't believe Captain Hindsight is bleating on about the lockdown
He wanted two weeks
Boris has shown clear leadership with four weeks plus a clear route out!
Yeah, whatever.
It is a reasonable point though.
If Drakeford's two weeker fails and Boris's four weeker is a success ...
Are you serious?
The point isn't Drakeford has made a massive error by only locking down for two weeks (although it may come to pass that two weeks was too short). The point is, Johnson claimed a full lockdown was counter productive and now because he has had to make a U-turn his lockdown has to be longer than it might have otherwise been, had he locked down earlier. Johnson's beef with the Welsh lockdown was it is 17 days too long- not two weeks too short!
Man, I can't cope with some of the utter nonsensical comments on here tonight. Good night!
Boris certainly hasn't impressed.
But if Drakeford's two week lockdown turns out to be a failure then its likely that a two week lockdown in England would have also been a failure.
We will see how successful their choices have been.
Given the green agenda and massive economic problems, I wouldn't rule out road pricing / tolls coming in.
When the big switch to electric cars does happen there's a lot of missing tax revenue. An advantage of taxing driving is that it's hard for people to avoid the tax - but then that also makes it unpopular.
Definitely a problem, but probably not until the next but one Chancellor at least.
Won't that be more than compensated for by a large reduction in imports? I mean, what will happen to the money that currently flows to Saudi Arabia etc for the oil imports?
Kudos to the Conservatives on here who are boiling in a rage tonight. It's a rare talent, and entertaining. It's been ten years of Conservative rule, you got a thumping majority less than a year ago, and here you are trying to blame someone -- anyone -- else. It's a great look.
I can't see any sign of anyone boiling with rage, having scrolled back through the thread to check. Is there really any point in generalised, content-free baiting posts like that?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/texas-drive-through-voting-throw-out-ballots.html ... Because Texas strictly limits mail-in voting, Harris County—which has a population of over 4.7 million people—has sought to make in-person voting safer during the pandemic. Harris County Clerk Chris Hollins, who runs the county’s elections, established 10 drive-thru voting locations for the 2020 general election. Drivers pull into a large tent, where election officials confirm their identity, then give them privacy to vote. The process has proved wildly popular.
Harris County raised the idea of drive-thru voting in June, and Texas Secretary of State Ruth Hughs promptly approved it. The county tested it in July and approved it in August. Yet Republicans did not contest drive-thru voting in court until Oct. 15, two days after the start of early voting. On that day, the Harris County Republican Party, joined by several GOP operatives, asked the Texas Supreme Court to halt drive-thru voting. The court, which is entirely Republican, refused, over a single dissent. Republicans then went back to the Texas Supreme Court, asking it to toss out every ballot cast via drive-thru voting. The court is currently considering that request, though it seems unlikely to side with the plaintiffs given its previous decision.
So Republicans ran to federal court....
The bad faith of Texas Republicans attempting to curtail voting in Democratic counties is utterly blatant. And their arguments, as the rest of the article described, preposterous.
Despite all of that, it’s entirely possible that Hanen, among the most partisan judges on the Federal bench, will rule for them.
Kudos to the Conservatives on here who are boiling in a rage tonight. It's a rare talent, and entertaining. It's been ten years of Conservative rule, you got a thumping majority less than a year ago, and here you are trying to blame someone -- anyone -- else. It's a great look.
I can't see any sign of anyone boiling with rage, having scrolled back through the thread to check. Is there really any point in generalised, content-free baiting posts like that?
Ah, that's good to hear. I thought I hadn't got the memo.
Given the green agenda and massive economic problems, I wouldn't rule out road pricing / tolls coming in.
When the big switch to electric cars does happen there's a lot of missing tax revenue. An advantage of taxing driving is that it's hard for people to avoid the tax - but then that also makes it unpopular.
Definitely a problem, but probably not until the next but one Chancellor at least.
Why? Taxing oil based fuel is just one way of taxing cars. Make electric cars report their mileage automatically and tax them on a per-mile basis.
There's a misconception that burning fossil fuel is the only thing wrong with cars. In fact however they run they are congesting, resource-intensive and generally undesirable. Tax em till the pips squeak.
I presume nobody told this idiot that Justin didn't win the popular vote in Canada either.
Not even Ardern managed that, though she was close!
I'm more concerned that they don't seem to consider whether Canada would want such a plan, and whether they assume American Democrats and Canadian Liberals will definitely all agree on everything.
Hmm - Trump does seem to be ahead in the last few polls there, and this one has a respectable record, I believe. A point that doesn't seem to be made widely enough is one familiar to anyone who's done knock-up on election day: you simply don't get everyone out voting, no matter how many helpers you have. Stuff happens and 10-20% of the people who told you they'd definitely vote actually don't, because they've twisted an ankle or their sister isn't well or a hundred other reasons. Calculations that say "Biden has a 70-30 lead in the votes cast so far, but that will be balanced by Trump having 75-25 in the ones not yet cast" aren't really in the real world.
Well, Biden probably isn't leading the early vote 70-30, and conservatives don't have as great a problem turning out voters than you may have experienced with Labour supporters.
I presume nobody told this idiot that Justin didn't win the popular vote in Canada either.
Not even Ardern managed that, though she was close!
I'm more concerned that they don't seem to consider whether Canada would want such a plan, and whether they assume American Democrats and Canadian Liberals will definitely all agree on everything.
Important caveat. 31% of Canadian votes went to Parties to the Left of Justin's milquetoast bunch.
Given the green agenda and massive economic problems, I wouldn't rule out road pricing / tolls coming in.
When the big switch to electric cars does happen there's a lot of missing tax revenue. An advantage of taxing driving is that it's hard for people to avoid the tax - but then that also makes it unpopular.
Definitely a problem, but probably not until the next but one Chancellor at least.
Won't that be more than compensated for by a large reduction in imports? I mean, what will happen to the money that currently flows to Saudi Arabia etc for the oil imports?
I suppose it's possible that if that money stays in the UK economy and circulates a few times that it generates enough other tax revenue to replace the lost fuel duty.
But at present we have a lot of money leaving the country for renewables and electric vehicles, so I wouldn't be very confident about that happening.
Trump is now more likely to win Iowa than Texas according to 538, as a result of the A+ rated Selzer poll showing Trump with a 7 point lead in the state.
I presume nobody told this idiot that Justin didn't win the popular vote in Canada either.
Not even Ardern managed that, though she was close!
I'm more concerned that they don't seem to consider whether Canada would want such a plan, and whether they assume American Democrats and Canadian Liberals will definitely all agree on everything.
Ardern did win the popular vote, even if not over 50%.
Given the green agenda and massive economic problems, I wouldn't rule out road pricing / tolls coming in.
When the big switch to electric cars does happen there's a lot of missing tax revenue. An advantage of taxing driving is that it's hard for people to avoid the tax - but then that also makes it unpopular.
Definitely a problem, but probably not until the next but one Chancellor at least.
Why? Taxing oil based fuel is just one way of taxing cars. Make electric cars report their mileage automatically and tax them on a per-mile basis.
There's a misconception that burning fossil fuel is the only thing wrong with cars. In fact however they run they are congesting, resource-intensive and generally undesirable. Tax em till the pips squeak.
Yes, I was suggesting that a new way of taxing cars would be an obvious way forward, but introducing a new tax to do that would be unpopular.
Mike - almost irrespective of the subject matter of a particular thread as indicated by the header, we have two enormous stories running side by side at present - the COVID-19 Crisis and the American POTUS Elections. To enable PBers to navigate the subject on which they wish to concentrate, please could you try to arrange things so that for the next four days or so we have two main threads running simultaneously with a request written in bold under each one requesting posters to confine themselves to the subject matter indicated by the thread header.
A worthy idea in theory, but trying to keep people on topic strikes me as anathema to the atmosphere. Simultaneously trying to follow discussion on Covid, the US elections, Brexit, Sindy, the merits of Thatcherism and the F1 results, is part of the fun. News sites are on topic.
And what poor bugger would enforce it? And what if a point is on how the COvid crisis has impacted the election, where would it be posted?
Kudos to the Conservatives on here who are boiling in a rage tonight. It's a rare talent, and entertaining. It's been ten years of Conservative rule, you got a thumping majority less than a year ago, and here you are trying to blame someone -- anyone -- else. It's a great look.
I can't see any sign of anyone boiling with rage, having scrolled back through the thread to check. Is there really any point in generalised, content-free baiting posts like that?
Frankly. Compared to most of the Internet, hardly anyone on here is even mildly irked. That's why I like it. But I accept its relative.
I presume nobody told this idiot that Justin didn't win the popular vote in Canada either.
Not even Ardern managed that, though she was close!
I'm more concerned that they don't seem to consider whether Canada would want such a plan, and whether they assume American Democrats and Canadian Liberals will definitely all agree on everything.
Ardern did win the popular vote, even if not over 50%.
Yes, you are right, I was getting mixed up by the tweet reference to a minority, which she just technically is, but Francis was only talking about popular vote, which won stonkingly.
I presume nobody told this idiot that Justin didn't win the popular vote in Canada either.
Not even Ardern managed that, though she was close!
I'm more concerned that they don't seem to consider whether Canada would want such a plan, and whether they assume American Democrats and Canadian Liberals will definitely all agree on everything.
Important caveat. 31% of Canadian votes went to Parties to the Left of Justin's milquetoast bunch.
It would also need conservative Alberta and Saskatchewen and Manitoba to be added to the remaining USA most likely to work
Countries that have succeeded in containing this virus tend to have two things in common: (1) they've closed or very tightly controlled their borders, and (2) they have aggressively suppressed the virus as soon as it's flared up, which has given space for track & trace to work. This is enforced with utter ruthlessness without any scruples whatsoever about liberal individualism.
The trouble with the UK is that to some extent we have economic issues with the former and political issues with the latter.
Japan definitely didn't enforce anything with utter ruthlessness without any scruples whatsoever about liberal individualism. Nobody was ever required to close anything down, the PM said the constitution doesn't allow them to do a lockdown, pachinko parlours continued to operate in defiance of requests from the central government and the governor of Tokyo, a wrestling event went ahead while the local governor stood outside pleading with them to stop, there were hotspots in brothels where one brothel had a serious covid outbreak, and not only did they continue operating, police declined to publicize the name of the plague-stricken brothel citing their right to privacy.
What is true is that they move *fast*: Closed schools, requested WFH, useful guidance on ventilation when we were at about 100 detected cases, not including the cruise ship.
Countries that have succeeded in containing this virus tend to have two things in common: (1) they've closed or very tightly controlled their borders, and (2) they have aggressively suppressed the virus as soon as it's flared up, which has given space for track & trace to work. This is enforced with utter ruthlessness without any scruples whatsoever about liberal individualism.
The trouble with the UK is that to some extent we have economic issues with the former and political issues with the latter.
Japan definitely didn't enforce anything with utter ruthlessness without any scruples whatsoever about liberal individualism. Nobody was ever required to close anything down, the PM said the constitution doesn't allow them to do a lockdown, pachinko parlours continued to operate in defiance of requests from the central government and the governor of Tokyo, a wrestling event went ahead while the local governor stood outside pleading with them to stop, there were hotspots in brothels where one brothel had a serious covid outbreak, and not only did they continue operating, police declined to publicize the name of the plague-stricken brothel citing their right to privacy.
What is true is that they move *fast*: Closed schools, requested WFH, useful guidance on ventilation when we were at about 100 detected cases, not including the cruise ship.
I know you'll argue that Japan is doing everything right, and aligning measures and precautions to the actual disease and without the apparent guesswork and mistargeting of transmission vectors that is going on in Europe etc. but even despite that, it's very difficult to believe that there isn't some sort of underlying immunity level that is driving what is going on in Asia. What do you think?
Or is it just that there are some very specific transmission sources that are somehow absent from Japanese and asian society, but are widespread throughout Europe and the Americas?
Kudos to the Conservatives on here who are boiling in a rage tonight. It's a rare talent, and entertaining. It's been ten years of Conservative rule, you got a thumping majority less than a year ago, and here you are trying to blame someone -- anyone -- else. It's a great look.
I can't see any sign of anyone boiling with rage, having scrolled back through the thread to check. Is there really any point in generalised, content-free baiting posts like that?
Frankly. Compared to most of the Internet, hardly anyone on here is even mildly irked. That's why I like it. But I accept its relative.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/texas-drive-through-voting-throw-out-ballots.html ... Because Texas strictly limits mail-in voting, Harris County—which has a population of over 4.7 million people—has sought to make in-person voting safer during the pandemic. Harris County Clerk Chris Hollins, who runs the county’s elections, established 10 drive-thru voting locations for the 2020 general election. Drivers pull into a large tent, where election officials confirm their identity, then give them privacy to vote. The process has proved wildly popular.
Harris County raised the idea of drive-thru voting in June, and Texas Secretary of State Ruth Hughs promptly approved it. The county tested it in July and approved it in August. Yet Republicans did not contest drive-thru voting in court until Oct. 15, two days after the start of early voting. On that day, the Harris County Republican Party, joined by several GOP operatives, asked the Texas Supreme Court to halt drive-thru voting. The court, which is entirely Republican, refused, over a single dissent. Republicans then went back to the Texas Supreme Court, asking it to toss out every ballot cast via drive-thru voting. The court is currently considering that request, though it seems unlikely to side with the plaintiffs given its previous decision.
So Republicans ran to federal court....
The bad faith of Texas Republicans attempting to curtail voting in Democratic counties is utterly blatant. And their arguments, as the rest of the article described, preposterous.
Despite all of that, it’s entirely possible that Hanen, among the most partisan judges on the Federal bench, will rule for them.
What's even more outrageous is that they are doing this after the process was agreed by a Republican secretary of State, and near unanimously by a 100% Republican State Supreme Court!
Comments
You are missing the point entirely
The public sector requires a successful private sector and in this crisis it is the private sector who are paying the price in lost jobs and futures
Why do those on the left not like this being pointed our when it is happening to so many
They also like to look as if they know what is being discussed even when they don't.
So put some extrapolating to infinity graphs in front of them, talk scary numbers, make some claims about how terrible things will be while using technical vocabulary they don't understand and the politicians will nod along and sign off on anything you want doing.
If Drakeford's two weeker fails and Boris's four weeker is a success ...
If they were true, why weren't they reported in the US weeks ago when they might have actually made a difference? And why are they being revealed by the Daily Mail?
Without a public sector in 2008 the banking system would have collapsed.
https://twitter.com/alistairhaimes/status/1322679787995975683?s=21
I happen to think there are lousy public sector workers and organisations and there are equally lousy private sector workers and organisations.
I could spend tomorrow waxing lyrical about the inefficiencies of the big red phone company but I feel I might bore people here!
To enable PBers to navigate the subject on which they wish to concentrate, please could you try to arrange things so that for the next four days or so we have two main threads running simultaneously with a request written in bold under each one requesting posters to confine themselves to the subject matter indicated by the thread header.
...Meanwhile GOP are beating their 2016 EV lead in Sumter.
There will be public sector job cuts on the horizon in the same way as people in the private sector are losing their jobs. It's not a competition. I have had very few new customers, public or private sector since March. We're all up S*** Street!
Anyway, at the shindig I described, do plan to take frequent smoke breaks outside (even though I do NOT smoke) and will NOT be lingering over dessert and coffee.
Like having to raise a ticket with an Indian team so I could speak to the IT team who were literally sat next to me.
To sell copies of . . . the Daily Mail!
Though the first two predictions turned out to be correct.
Even if not implicating Joe Biden in anything.
The point isn't Drakeford has made a massive error by only locking down for two weeks (although it may come to pass that two weeks was too short). The point is, Johnson claimed a full lockdown was counter productive and now because he has had to make a U-turn his lockdown has to be longer than it might have otherwise been, had he locked down earlier. Johnson's beef with the Welsh lockdown was it is 17 days too long- not two weeks too short!
Man, I can't cope with some of the utter nonsensical comments on here tonight. Good night!
Look at the M6Toll road, Half empty because people wont pay for it. I would be very surprised if anymore private roads occur agin.
https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1322682963402915841
Everything else has been shit this year. Why would this be any different?
Night all.
I cited the examples earlier of London Zoo and Kew Gardens - which i'm sure are causes close to your own heart and which fund and support crucial conservation activities around the world - the loss of which support is incalculable.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8901399/No-10-aide-health-bosses-told-PM-ice-rinks-used-mortuaries-Covid.html
It's been ten years of Conservative rule, you got a thumping majority less than a year ago, and here you are trying to blame someone -- anyone -- else. It's a great look.
Definitely a problem, but probably not until the next but one Chancellor at least.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8899449/Halloween-revellers-hit-streets-Newcastle-city-remains-Tier-2-lockdown.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/13076624/drinkers-celebrate-halloween-national-lockdown/
But if Drakeford's two week lockdown turns out to be a failure then its likely that a two week lockdown in England would have also been a failure.
We will see how successful their choices have been.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/texas-drive-through-voting-throw-out-ballots.html
... Because Texas strictly limits mail-in voting, Harris County—which has a population of over 4.7 million people—has sought to make in-person voting safer during the pandemic. Harris County Clerk Chris Hollins, who runs the county’s elections, established 10 drive-thru voting locations for the 2020 general election. Drivers pull into a large tent, where election officials confirm their identity, then give them privacy to vote. The process has proved wildly popular.
Harris County raised the idea of drive-thru voting in June, and Texas Secretary of State Ruth Hughs promptly approved it. The county tested it in July and approved it in August. Yet Republicans did not contest drive-thru voting in court until Oct. 15, two days after the start of early voting. On that day, the Harris County Republican Party, joined by several GOP operatives, asked the Texas Supreme Court to halt drive-thru voting. The court, which is entirely Republican, refused, over a single dissent. Republicans then went back to the Texas Supreme Court, asking it to toss out every ballot cast via drive-thru voting. The court is currently considering that request, though it seems unlikely to side with the plaintiffs given its previous decision.
So Republicans ran to federal court....
The bad faith of Texas Republicans attempting to curtail voting in Democratic counties is utterly blatant.
And their arguments, as the rest of the article described, preposterous.
Despite all of that, it’s entirely possible that Hanen, among the most partisan judges on the Federal bench, will rule for them.
There's a misconception that burning fossil fuel is the only thing wrong with cars. In fact however they run they are congesting, resource-intensive and generally undesirable. Tax em till the pips squeak.
https://twitter.com/sgourley/status/1322682454302511105
I'm more concerned that they don't seem to consider whether Canada would want such a plan, and whether they assume American Democrats and Canadian Liberals will definitely all agree on everything.
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1322691557787656192?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1322693172603006976?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1322693427172155392?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1322689734641131523?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1322692756741959687?s=20
But at present we have a lot of money leaving the country for renewables and electric vehicles, so I wouldn't be very confident about that happening.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast
And what poor bugger would enforce it? And what if a point is on how the COvid crisis has impacted the election, where would it be posted?
That's why I like it.
But I accept its relative.
https://twitter.com/ryanobles/status/1322665222499434497
https://twitter.com/DanScavino/status/1322678086454956035
What is true is that they move *fast*: Closed schools, requested WFH, useful guidance on ventilation when we were at about 100 detected cases, not including the cruise ship.
Or is it just that there are some very specific transmission sources that are somehow absent from Japanese and asian society, but are widespread throughout Europe and the Americas?
Whoever tweeted it clearly doesn't have the electoral and/or technical knowledge to create an equivalent on the 2016 results.
His teeth are absolutely fucked. Why doesn't he get them fixed?
Plus, what's wrong with a few wonky teeth?