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The post debate betting moves just a touch to Trump – politicalbetting.com

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,700
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    An American nationalist candidate would win by running against the toffee-nosed Brits.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    ONS data for England, with cases reported by PCR testing for comparison -

    image
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
  • Selling false hope again...

    Boris Johnson hopes families can have Christmas together

    It is Boris Johnson's "ambition" for people to celebrate Christmas with their families, his spokesman has said. The prime minister is "hopeful" that "some aspects of our lives" could be "back to normal" by then, he added.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54662895
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Yesterday one of the government scientists said there could be as many as 90k new cases per day at the moment. The ONS data runs to the 9th and estimates 32k new infections per day.

    I can't fit those two data points together. What kind of data modelling are they using for this? I've started to put a logarithmic regression model together today and it can't get near that doubling rate with the daily data inputs or with the ONS data inputs.

    I really have to start questioning the competence of the government scientists at this stage.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    Tories are pathetic, vindictive arseholes who would block free meals for poorer kids out of pique at being called 'scum'...

    ...sez Tory.

    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1319384272709570568?s=20

    As opposed to Scottish Nationalists whose real raison d'etre is their hatred of people who identify as English, whether young or old, rich or poor. While I don't like the vote against the extension of free school meals, observing any Nationalist "arsehole" who supports the braindead, hate filled irrational quasi-religion of Scottish Nationalism, (let's not forget its occasional past flirtations with Nazism and Fascism), calling people who follow another party such names has to be seen as pretty rich. Nats are a very poor position to pontificate on morals.
    I am forthright
    You are unparliamentary
    He/She is inciting violence
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited October 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Yesterday one of the government scientists said there could be as many as 90k new cases per day at the moment. The ONS data runs to the 9th and estimates 32k new infections per day.

    I can't fit those two data points together. What kind of data modelling are they using for this? I've started to put a logarithmic regression model together today and it can't get near that doubling rate with the daily data inputs or with the ONS data inputs.

    I really have to start questioning the competence of the government scientists at this stage.

    There was the slide from two weeks ago, where they showed I think 3-4 different "models" of true infections per day. I can't remember the exact figures, but the ONS was down at something like 20k, and there was one model that had up on the slide at upto 70k.

    Again, like the how many lives will a circuit breaker save, from low 1000s to over 100k, I do start to really wonder about some of these models.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    @ISAM did you have to post that? Some of us are trying to eat.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    Not only that, if the four nations of the UK each became a state the Senate would likely be permanently out of reach of the Republicans too.

    None of that is ever going to happen, of course.
    "The Senate would likely be permanently out of reach of the Republicans too" - except it would not. The centre of gravity in US politics would just move until the GOP were competitive.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    Not only that, if the four nations of the UK each became a state the Senate would likely be permanently out of reach of the Republicans too.

    None of that is ever going to happen, of course.
    "The Senate would likely be permanently out of reach of the Republicans too" - except it would not. The centre of gravity in US politics would just move until the GOP were competitive.
    That's a very good point.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    I give a fair hearing to reasonable arguments on inner city crime, on the economy, on Biden's sense of entitlement, etc, and the associated polling data.

    But presenting ridiculously large trends in subsamples without a health warning is not part of that. Rasmussen charge for access to their crosstabs, so you can't check whether there's a simple observation bias at work in presenting random data as a trend.
    It's not just this poll.
    Yes, as I said, I listen to the other stuff.

    I'm criticising this data and the interpretation of it.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Just looked at the NC latest update here:

    https://twitter.com/OldNorthStPol/status/1319628327951491073

    A few things sprung out

    - The Republicans have narrowed the gap again vs the Democrats in % of absentee ballots - 42% vs 29% vs 43%/28% the day before. One feature that makes me think that doesn't reflect the true position is that in Rural County areas (which was a strong Trump area), 42% of the absentee ballots come from Democrats vs 32% for Republicans, which makes me think some of these are old-school Democrats by registration but who actually vote Republican;

    - 22% of those who have voted already didn't vote in 2016 (17% post-16 registration). Not much difference in the Democrat / Republican % of vote from non-16 voters (21%/19%);

    - Older voters continue to dominate - only 22% of votes so far from 40 or under even though they make up 40% of the electorate;

    - The Republicans have picked up the speed in terms of % of those registered who have already voted. If the curve continues at the same rate, they will pass the Democrats by election day;

    - On the racial mix, White turnout again looks to have picked up as % of overall voters, Black voters probably trending in line as % of absentee ballots as their share of voters (c. 22%)
  • England v Barbarians called off after players breach Covid rules

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/54656359
  • Warrington to move to tier 3 restrictions

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-54662496

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    Yesterday one of the government scientists said there could be as many as 90k new cases per day at the moment. The ONS data runs to the 9th and estimates 32k new infections per day.

    I can't fit those two data points together. What kind of data modelling are they using for this? I've started to put a logarithmic regression model together today and it can't get near that doubling rate with the daily data inputs or with the ONS data inputs.

    I really have to start questioning the competence of the government scientists at this stage.

    There was the slide from two weeks ago, where they showed I think 3-4 different "models" of true infections per day. I can't remember the exact figures, but the ONS was down at something like 20k, and there was one model that had up on the slide at upto 70k.

    Again, like the how many lives will a circuit breaker save, from low 1000s to over 100k, I do start to really wonder about some of these models.
    Even with the most pessimistic assumptions I can't hit 90k, I mean bumping down NPI effectiveness from what they are estimated to be right now to less than half, and that change happening overnight from the 9th still doesn't get near 90k.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile the Black vote seems to be moving more to Trump relative to 2016 which could be pivotal in Michigan, Georgia and North Carolina which have above average percentages of African American voters

    https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1319605958037950470?s=20

    Come on. If you obtained variance like that, you'd junk your methodology.
    24% to 46% in 3 days in the absence of a war or 9/11 type event?
    Malarkey.
    I suspect that both Rasmussen and Trafalgar are basically trousering money from GOP backers to keep producing "polls" that make it look like they are still in the race.

    Rasmussen was the only pollster projecting a GOP lead in the mid-terms. They lost by 8.4%.

    Rasmussen are the only pollster telling us Trump has a positive approval rating whilst everyone else has a disapproval rating of around 7 to 20%.

    There are very good reasons these too are graded as C/ C- pollsters.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Actually, I think a better way of bringing society together would be for people who are ridiculously rich, such as Premier League Footballers, to set up places where children in need can go and meet, eat, play etc for free during the holidays, rather than demand the state hand out food vouchers. They dole out Asda vouchers at my girlfriends school, and they get parents rolling up in their Range Rovers asking if they can have Marks and Spencer ones instead!

    https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/1319641438305570818?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    England v Barbarians called off after players breach Covid rules

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/54656359

    More stupid idiot sportsmen.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    Not only that, if the four nations of the UK each became a state the Senate would likely be permanently out of reach of the Republicans too.

    None of that is ever going to happen, of course.
    I think NI would unite with the Irish Republic in that scenario, so we would only be States 51-53. Perhaps London would choose to be a separate state. Yorkshire and other parts of the North too.
    A lot of other interesting questions raised, of course. We would have to lose the monarchy. Would Canada join too? Would the 2nd amendment lead to more gun violence here? How would it affect population dynamics here (I am guessing rapid depopulation)? Would the American South put up with their country shifting to the left permanently or seek to secede again? Would they learn how to make a decent cuppa?
    In a lot of ways there is a logic to the idea of a vast Anglosphere Republic, but it could be a pretty crazy place and evolve in some unexpected ways. I'm not particularly against it, the US is a weird place but I've lived there before and don't mind living there again.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,717

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
    I think the original Paul became calamari romana, but I mollusc think it over.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    OllyT said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile the Black vote seems to be moving more to Trump relative to 2016 which could be pivotal in Michigan, Georgia and North Carolina which have above average percentages of African American voters

    https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1319605958037950470?s=20

    Come on. If you obtained variance like that, you'd junk your methodology.
    24% to 46% in 3 days in the absence of a war or 9/11 type event?
    Malarkey.
    I suspect that both Rasmussen and Trafalgar are basically trousering money from GOP backers to keep producing "polls" that make it look like they are still in the race.

    Rasmussen was the only pollster projecting a GOP lead in the mid-terms. They lost by 8.4%.

    Rasmussen are the only pollster telling us Trump has a positive approval rating whilst everyone else has a disapproval rating of around 7 to 20%.

    There are very good reasons these too are graded as C/ C- pollsters.
    Rasmussen final 2016 national poll Clinton +2%

    Result Clinton +2%
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited October 2020
    If people could not find essential products in supermarkets there were ways around the problem, he said, adding that friends and neighbours were "often very willing to help".

    "There are online ways that people can purchase goods," Mr Drakeford said. "It is not a problem without a solution."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54662795

    If Boris had said this, he would be absolutely blasted, as out of touch with the poor and the old, who don't have internet access.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Sandpit said:

    England v Barbarians called off after players breach Covid rules

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/54656359

    More stupid idiot sportsmen.
    Or just men not necessarily sport related.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    sarissa said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is "Nippy" an affectionate name for Sturgeon or a putdown?

    'Nippy Sweetie' is an old Scots term for an outwardly pleasant woman with a sharp tongue.
    It is certainly far from affectionate , it is an insult.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
    Was that six quid, or squid?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    If people could not find essential products in supermarkets there were ways around the problem, he said, adding that friends and neighbours were "often very willing to help".

    "There are online ways that people can purchase goods," Mr Drakeford said. "It is not a problem without a solution."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54662795

    If Boris had said this, he would be absolutely blasted, as out of touch with the poor and the old, who don't have internet access.

    It's a completely ridiculous thing to say. Destroying British businesses and jobs in favour of a giant American multi-national company. I don't understand why government ministers aren't smashing this on TV every chance they get right now.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Can Boris and co now point to the Scots and say they are following our favoured approach?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
    Spot on.

    In two party systems, the parties themselves change until the shares approximate 50:50.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
    The Republican candidates would also have to look a bit more like Chris Christie and Nikki Haley and Mitt Romney and dare I say Cameron and Boris than Trump and Cruz, the Democrats though would shift further left even as the GOP had to shift to the centre if the UK became the largest state voting in the Democratic primaries. Indeed the likes of Bloomberg would probably shift back to the GOP in that scenario
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463

    Selling false hope again...

    Boris Johnson hopes families can have Christmas together

    It is Boris Johnson's "ambition" for people to celebrate Christmas with their families, his spokesman has said. The prime minister is "hopeful" that "some aspects of our lives" could be "back to normal" by then, he added.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54662895

    In his case, which family?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
    "The Democrats ... pro-union stance" They'd want England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to be one state within the US?
  • HYUFD said:

    OllyT said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile the Black vote seems to be moving more to Trump relative to 2016 which could be pivotal in Michigan, Georgia and North Carolina which have above average percentages of African American voters

    https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1319605958037950470?s=20

    Come on. If you obtained variance like that, you'd junk your methodology.
    24% to 46% in 3 days in the absence of a war or 9/11 type event?
    Malarkey.
    I suspect that both Rasmussen and Trafalgar are basically trousering money from GOP backers to keep producing "polls" that make it look like they are still in the race.

    Rasmussen was the only pollster projecting a GOP lead in the mid-terms. They lost by 8.4%.

    Rasmussen are the only pollster telling us Trump has a positive approval rating whilst everyone else has a disapproval rating of around 7 to 20%.

    There are very good reasons these too are graded as C/ C- pollsters.
    Rasmussen final 2016 national poll Clinton +2%

    Result Clinton +2%
    Can you tell me whether that was as a result of a bit of late 'herding', Hyufd, or were they on the right track all along?

    I do have a soft spot for Ras. You know where they are coming from and are thoroughly consistent. If you knock five points off their Trump figure you are generally in the right ballpark, and there's no doubt at all that they are proper pollsters.
  • Selling false hope again...

    Boris Johnson hopes families can have Christmas together

    It is Boris Johnson's "ambition" for people to celebrate Christmas with their families, his spokesman has said. The prime minister is "hopeful" that "some aspects of our lives" could be "back to normal" by then, he added.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54662895

    Which of his families will be drawing the short straw?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
    Was that six quid, or squid?
    Sick squid.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Scott_xP said:
    Another reason why Johnson should step down.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    @Nigelb

    Yes - fascinating data in that Politico piece on the early voting. And on balance encouraging.

    Also rather like the election dynamic it invokes. Like a race with pacing and tactics all important.

    The Dems, virus averse, methodical, Roundheads not Cavaliers, slowly and steadily, professionally, racking up a big lead.

    Then on 3rd Nov - the back straight - here they come, that Trump Base - "mail is for pussies!" - all sound and fury and not a mask in sight as they hit the polling stations en masse, barreling along down there, on foot or by golf cart, many astride Harley Davidsons, and they VOTE VOTE VOTE and try and catch that Biden total and beat it just before the flag.

    Images I'm trying like crazy to suppress are (i) Red Rum and Crisp, Aintree 73 and (ii) Dave "the throttle" Wottle, Munich 72.

    God I've got sweaty palms just typing this, given what is at stake here.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    HYUFD said:

    OllyT said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile the Black vote seems to be moving more to Trump relative to 2016 which could be pivotal in Michigan, Georgia and North Carolina which have above average percentages of African American voters

    https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1319605958037950470?s=20

    Come on. If you obtained variance like that, you'd junk your methodology.
    24% to 46% in 3 days in the absence of a war or 9/11 type event?
    Malarkey.
    I suspect that both Rasmussen and Trafalgar are basically trousering money from GOP backers to keep producing "polls" that make it look like they are still in the race.

    Rasmussen was the only pollster projecting a GOP lead in the mid-terms. They lost by 8.4%.

    Rasmussen are the only pollster telling us Trump has a positive approval rating whilst everyone else has a disapproval rating of around 7 to 20%.

    There are very good reasons these too are graded as C/ C- pollsters.
    Rasmussen final 2016 national poll Clinton +2%

    Result Clinton +2%
    Can you tell me whether that was as a result of a bit of late 'herding', Hyufd, or were they on the right track all along?

    I do have a soft spot for Ras. You know where they are coming from and are thoroughly consistent. If you knock five points off their Trump figure you are generally in the right ballpark, and there's no doubt at all that they are proper pollsters.
    Among the 45% who say they have already voted, however, Biden has a 17-point lead – 56% to 39%.

    Ninety-three percent (93%) say they are definitely going to vote, and Trump has a five-point advantage – 50% to 45% - among these voters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
    Was that six quid, or squid?
    Er... yes that was indeed the point of my rather spineless pun.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited October 2020

    If people could not find essential products in supermarkets there were ways around the problem, he said, adding that friends and neighbours were "often very willing to help".

    "There are online ways that people can purchase goods," Mr Drakeford said. "It is not a problem without a solution."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54662795

    If Boris had said this, he would be absolutely blasted, as out of touch with the poor and the old, who don't have internet access.

    It does completely defeat both alleged purposes of the legislation, namely (i) to protect small shopkeepers and (ii) to minimise human activity so as to cut the transmission of the disease.

    I now wonder whether the short lockdowns could be completely counter-productive. Before they start, we get this

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-54656896

    So, Welshowl's neighbours hosted a massive Thursday Corona Party in Cardiff, before the 2.5 week lockdown begins.

    With a 14 day incubation period for COVID, then as Drakeford's lockdown comes to an end, the pan is nicely boiling again.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    ONS data for England, with cases reported by PCR testing for comparison -

    image

    Wait, didn't Starmer declare the restrictions had failed?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
    Was that six quid, or squid?
    Sick squid.
    👍 Always nice to see one's finest work appreciated.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    MaxPB said:

    Yesterday one of the government scientists said there could be as many as 90k new cases per day at the moment. The ONS data runs to the 9th and estimates 32k new infections per day.

    I can't fit those two data points together. What kind of data modelling are they using for this? I've started to put a logarithmic regression model together today and it can't get near that doubling rate with the daily data inputs or with the ONS data inputs.

    I really have to start questioning the competence of the government scientists at this stage.

    There was the slide from two weeks ago, where they showed I think 3-4 different "models" of true infections per day. I can't remember the exact figures, but the ONS was down at something like 20k, and there was one model that had up on the slide at upto 70k.

    Again, like the how many lives will a circuit breaker save, from low 1000s to over 100k, I do start to really wonder about some of these models.
    The latest ons data (based on actual survey data) goes to the 16th

    image

    Surely that trumps theoretical models?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    edited October 2020
    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is "Nippy" an affectionate name for Sturgeon or a putdown?

    'Nippy Sweetie' is an old Scots term for an outwardly pleasant woman with a sharp tongue.
    It is certainly far from affectionate , it is an insult.
    More mixed, I think, in its general usage. Peppery, sharp, you know the kind of traditional sweet like a Hawick ball or Jeddart snail. I'd say someone to treat with respect: Princess Anne has the same quality, and I've seen the expression used of her. It's perfectly possible to have a nippy sweetie female relative and to be wholly comfortable with her while being careful not to get on her bad side (usually for good reasons, ie I am being an idiot - and this will be pointed out to me).

    But the problem is that in its wider political usage it has been debased by people who don't know Scots, like 'haver' has been, and certainlyt it is intended as an insult by tje usual suspects on PB. Which, now you mention it, makes me realise it is a highly misogynistic term. Something for the PB Moderators to consider banning.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    One thing I do think is correct with both the St Pete and Rasmussen poll is the following:

    Among the 45% who say they have already voted, however, Biden has a 17-point lead – 56% to 39%. Fieldwork 20/21st October

    St Pete Poll :

    Already voted 39.3% Donald Trump ; 58.2% Biden - fieldwork 21st/22nd October
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
    "The Democrats ... pro-union stance" They'd want England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to be one state within the US?
    Trade unions.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    But HYUFD has pointed out its remarkable impact.
    Yes HYUFD - PB's answer to Nate Silver
    PB's answer to a cephalopod called Paul surely?
    Not at all, @HYUFD is relatively 'armless compared to Paul.
    I reckon the sucker count differs too.
    I bet you six quid that @HYUFD produces a closer 2020 POTUS forecast than Paul.
    Was that six quid, or squid?
    Underrated post.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is "Nippy" an affectionate name for Sturgeon or a putdown?

    'Nippy Sweetie' is an old Scots term for an outwardly pleasant woman with a sharp tongue.
    It is certainly far from affectionate , it is an insult.
    More mixed, I think, in its general usage. Peppery, sharp, you know the kind of traditional sweet like a Hawick ball or Jeddart snail. I'd say someone to treat with respect: Princess Anne has the same quality, and I've seen the expression used of her. It's perfectly possible to have a nippy sweetie female relative and to be wholly comfortable with her while being careful not to get on her bad side (usually for good reasons, ie I am being an idiot - and this will be pointed out to me).

    But the problem is that in its wider political usage it has been debased by people who don't know Scots, like 'haver' has been, and certainlyt it is intended as an insult by tje usual suspects on PB. Which, now you mention it, makes me realise it is a highly misogynistic term. Something for the PB Moderators to consider banning.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    RobD said:

    ONS data for England, with cases reported by PCR testing for comparison -

    image

    Wait, didn't Starmer declare the restrictions had failed?
    Well politicians are closely related to journalists. And we know how that goes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    What always fascinates me about betting, maybe it's just me that sees it this way, is how something with the same chance of happening, happening feels so different, ie Trump as a 2/1 shot winning the election would seem a shock, but if the favourite wins today's 400 at Newbury (Jumaira Bay, currently a 5/2 shot on Betfair) it will be nothing to talk about, despite it being less likely to happen, according to the market, than The Donald retaining the Presidency

    I think some of this is to do with binary vs multiple. For example -

    Race 1 has 10 runners all at 9/1.
    Race 2 has 2 runners, fav at 1/9, nag at 9/1.

    So, one of the 9/1 shots is bound to come in in Race 1. Therefore this will not feel like much of a surprise to an independent dispassionate observer who has no bet on. But if the 9/1 nag beats the 1/9 "racing certainty" in Race 2, that WILL feel like a real shock.

    So here, with the US election, it's like Race 2, a binary 2 horse race, and of course ... I'm going to enjoy this pay off sentence ... Trump is the Nag.
    Yeah that is partly it, but it still feels different to be on the 7/1f for the Grand National than it does West Ham tmrw vs City, to me anyway despite knowing this for 20 odd years

    So binary factor and also favourite vs outsider

    Actually that West Ham bet looks alright!
    Think I know what you'll say (which is the same as me) but let me check -

    Taking your 2 examples, do you instinctively feel your 7/1 fav National horse has a better or worse chance of winning than your 7/1 West Ham nag?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Scott_xP said:
    Another reason why Johnson should step down.
    I checked - and yest, they do mean permanent or at least long term changes after overt recovery, or at least so far as one can tell now.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,594
    edited October 2020
    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited October 2020

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    Oh sorry, forgot only Biden poll leads allowed.

    What is this site supposed to be, a betting site or Biden's UK campaign HQ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Tories are pathetic, vindictive arseholes who would block free meals for poorer kids out of pique at being called 'scum'...

    ...sez Tory.

    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1319384272709570568?s=20

    As opposed to Scottish Nationalists whose real raison d'etre is their hatred of people who identify as English, whether young or old, rich or poor. While I don't like the vote against the extension of free school meals, observing any Nationalist "arsehole" who supports the braindead, hate filled irrational quasi-religion of Scottish Nationalism, (let's not forget its occasional past flirtations with Nazism and Fascism), calling people who follow another party such names has to be seen as pretty rich. Nats are a very poor position to pontificate on morals.
    I am forthright
    You are unparliamentary
    He/She is inciting violence
    Especially as it was the local Tories, not the SNP,. who got banged up (by Churchill, W.S.) for being Nazis.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Carnyx said:

    More mixed, I think, in its general usage. Peppery, sharp, you know the kind of traditional sweet like a Hawick ball or Jeddart snail. I'd say someone to treat with respect: Princess Anne has the same quality, and I've seen the expression used of her.

    It traditionally refers to a dram
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    What always fascinates me about betting, maybe it's just me that sees it this way, is how something with the same chance of happening, happening feels so different, ie Trump as a 2/1 shot winning the election would seem a shock, but if the favourite wins today's 400 at Newbury (Jumaira Bay, currently a 5/2 shot on Betfair) it will be nothing to talk about, despite it being less likely to happen, according to the market, than The Donald retaining the Presidency

    I think some of this is to do with binary vs multiple. For example -

    Race 1 has 10 runners all at 9/1.
    Race 2 has 2 runners, fav at 1/9, nag at 9/1.

    So, one of the 9/1 shots is bound to come in in Race 1. Therefore this will not feel like much of a surprise to an independent dispassionate observer who has no bet on. But if the 9/1 nag beats the 1/9 "racing certainty" in Race 2, that WILL feel like a real shock.

    So here, with the US election, it's like Race 2, a binary 2 horse race, and of course ... I'm going to enjoy this pay off sentence ... Trump is the Nag.
    Yeah that is partly it, but it still feels different to be on the 7/1f for the Grand National than it does West Ham tmrw vs City, to me anyway despite knowing this for 20 odd years

    So binary factor and also favourite vs outsider

    Actually that West Ham bet looks alright!
    Think I know what you'll say (which is the same as me) but let me check -

    Taking your 2 examples, do you instinctively feel your 7/1 fav National horse has a better or worse chance of winning than your 7/1 West Ham nag?
    Oh 100% better
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    No no. Let him post:

    a) It's good to have a counter-view,
    b) When he's proved laughably wrong we can all enjoy him eating humble-pie and...
    c) If he turns out to be right, well f*ck-it, we're in the presence of a maverick genius!.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    Oh sorry, forgot only Biden poll leads allowed.

    What is this site supposed to be, a betting site or Biden's UK campaign HQ?
    It was a joke hence the !!!

    Have you posted both Florida polls from today or just the one?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    Oh sorry, forgot only Biden poll leads allowed.

    What is this site supposed to be, a betting site or Biden's UK campaign HQ?
    It was a joke hence the !!!

    Have you posted both Florida polls from today or just the one?
    The earlier one was already posted but I have posted plenty of polls showing Biden leads too
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    If people could not find essential products in supermarkets there were ways around the problem, he said, adding that friends and neighbours were "often very willing to help".

    "There are online ways that people can purchase goods," Mr Drakeford said. "It is not a problem without a solution."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54662795

    If Boris had said this, he would be absolutely blasted, as out of touch with the poor and the old, who don't have internet access.

    It does completely defeat both alleged purposes of the legislation, namely (i) to protect small shop[keepers and (ii) to minimise human activity so as to cut the transmission of the disease.

    I now wonder whether the short lockdowns could be completely counter-productive. Before they start, we get this

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-54656896

    So, Welshowl's neighbours hosted a massive Thursday Corona Party in Cardiff, before the 2.5 week lockdown begins.

    With a 14 day incubation period for COVID, then as Drakeford's lockdown comes to an end, the pan is nicely boiling again.
    Great isn’t it.

    I am actively avoiding anybody under the age of 30 round here at present because their rates are through the roof.

    There’s now a super local breakdown of Wales available. To give a flavour one student bit of Cardiff has 51 cases And the neighbouring streets 600 yards away in another ward has 9 cases. The worst part of town ( again with lots of halls of residence) is over 2600 ( two thousand six hundred) per 100000.

    Now it’s not really the students’ fault. They’re young, know they’re 99.99% not going to die and are doubtless getting pissed and shagging each other’s brains out with gusto ( yes that is envy you can read between the lines), but they should never have been brought back en masse into student accommodation, which is by its very nature communal and cramped, with added alcohol and hormones.

    And now Drakeford’s adding to his wonderful management by all but telling people to fill Jeff Bezos’ pockets.

    In fairness to Drakeford all govts right now are screwing up because there are no good choices, just varieties of wrong, and wronger. But there are some easy things not to blunder into at the same time.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    More mixed, I think, in its general usage. Peppery, sharp, you know the kind of traditional sweet like a Hawick ball or Jeddart snail. I'd say someone to treat with respect: Princess Anne has the same quality, and I've seen the expression used of her.

    It traditionally refers to a dram
    You go to the bar and ask for a nippy?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    More mixed, I think, in its general usage. Peppery, sharp, you know the kind of traditional sweet like a Hawick ball or Jeddart snail. I'd say someone to treat with respect: Princess Anne has the same quality, and I've seen the expression used of her.

    It traditionally refers to a dram
    New one to me. I think that is secondary - given the timing of the Billy Connolly drink:

    http://whiskycritic.com/last-known-bottle-of-nippy-sweetie-on-display-in-glasgow
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,998
    edited October 2020


    c) If he turns out to be right, well f*ck-it, we're in the presence of a maverick genius!.

    His tentacles will be everywhere in that event.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    Rasmussen has Trump plus three in Florida today.

    Dunno you would call that 'movement'
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
    Spot on.

    In two party systems, the parties themselves change until the shares approximate 50:50.
    Unless there were structural reasons why the two parties could not adjust to create a new equilibrium. Japanese politics didn't do so.

    There are such large structural differences between British and American politics that I think a process of adjustment would be really difficult.

    Also, this has a bearing on the equilibrium in the present US system. Would you expect the equilibrium to be at 50:50 vote share, 50:50 chance of winning the Presidency, House or Senate? There's quite a difference between all of those.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    I mean, there is movement. There is a clear narrowing on the 538 national polling average.

    6 days ago the lead was 10.7, now it is 9.8 and it moved consistently down through those 6 days.

    I would like the market to massively over react and make Biden evens again please.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    What always fascinates me about betting, maybe it's just me that sees it this way, is how something with the same chance of happening, happening feels so different, ie Trump as a 2/1 shot winning the election would seem a shock, but if the favourite wins today's 400 at Newbury (Jumaira Bay, currently a 5/2 shot on Betfair) it will be nothing to talk about, despite it being less likely to happen, according to the market, than The Donald retaining the Presidency

    I think some of this is to do with binary vs multiple. For example -

    Race 1 has 10 runners all at 9/1.
    Race 2 has 2 runners, fav at 1/9, nag at 9/1.

    So, one of the 9/1 shots is bound to come in in Race 1. Therefore this will not feel like much of a surprise to an independent dispassionate observer who has no bet on. But if the 9/1 nag beats the 1/9 "racing certainty" in Race 2, that WILL feel like a real shock.

    So here, with the US election, it's like Race 2, a binary 2 horse race, and of course ... I'm going to enjoy this pay off sentence ... Trump is the Nag.
    Yeah that is partly it, but it still feels different to be on the 7/1f for the Grand National than it does West Ham tmrw vs City, to me anyway despite knowing this for 20 odd years

    So binary factor and also favourite vs outsider

    Actually that West Ham bet looks alright!
    Think I know what you'll say (which is the same as me) but let me check -

    Taking your 2 examples, do you instinctively feel your 7/1 fav National horse has a better or worse chance of winning than your 7/1 West Ham nag?
    Oh 100% better
    Right. Yes, ditto. (We'll assume no bias due to WH being your team and so you'd feel the same if it were say Palace.)

    Interesting that this directly conflicts with 2 old gambling sayings -

    "The bigger the field the bigger the certainty."

    "Always take the big odds on a 2 horse race."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    edited October 2020

    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    More mixed, I think, in its general usage. Peppery, sharp, you know the kind of traditional sweet like a Hawick ball or Jeddart snail. I'd say someone to treat with respect: Princess Anne has the same quality, and I've seen the expression used of her.

    It traditionally refers to a dram
    You go to the bar and ask for a nippy?
    Checked. DSL only has it as far back as 1985 in the dram sense. Not sure that is 'traditional' but maybe I am showing my age!

    Gsw. 1985 Michael Munro The Patter 49:
    nippy sweetie A jocular term for a drink of spirits: 'How about a nippy sweetie to finish off?' ... The derivation is from the sense of nippy meaning sharp-tasting, burning to the taste, etc.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    Oh sorry, forgot only Biden poll leads allowed.

    What is this site supposed to be, a betting site or Biden's UK campaign HQ?
    What’s your current EC forecast?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    Rasmussen has Trump plus three in Florida today.

    Dunno you would call that 'movement'
    Rasmussen had the GOP in the lead in its final midterm poll when the party went down by 8.3%
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Assuming everyone in North Carolina is voting exactly in proportion to how they voted in 2016 on a County level Trump currently leads by 56,000 votes
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Fun with sums
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    No no. Let him post:

    a) It's good to have a counter-view,
    b) When he's proved laughably wrong we can all enjoy him eating humble-pie and...
    c) If he turns out to be right, well f*ck-it, we're in the presence of a maverick genius!.
    Is he actually forecasting a Trump win though? Last time I asked he was forecasting a Biden win although backing Trump 270-299 for the value. Which is fair enough - I’m doing that too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    Rasmussen has Trump plus three in Florida today.

    Dunno you would call that 'movement'
    Rasmussen had the GOP in the lead in its final midterm poll when the party went down by 8.3%
    Rasmussen had Clinton +2% in their final 2016 poll though
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    On the Welsh supermarket thing - don't agree with the non-essential thing but presumably like Amazon they have online sales as well for these goods. Maybe they could open up some in-store terminals so people could do the 2 jobs together! bog roll off the shelf and the toilet seat on-line :wink:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited October 2020
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    I mean, there is movement. There is a clear narrowing on the 538 national polling average.

    6 days ago the lead was 10.7, now it is 9.8 and it moved consistently down through those 6 days.

    I would like the market to massively over react and make Biden evens again please.
    St Pete and Rasmussen both have 17 - 18% leads for Biden of the vote already in. St Pete thinks Biden wins by 2, Rasmussen has a Trump win.

    That's a huge difference when considering the vote already in. Massive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Can we ban HYUFD from posting until a week on Wednesday please!!!
    Oh sorry, forgot only Biden poll leads allowed.

    What is this site supposed to be, a betting site or Biden's UK campaign HQ?
    What’s your current EC forecast?
    I have now shifted from a narrow Biden win back to a narrow Trump win, however I still think Biden will win the popular vote
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited October 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    I love all the data and chat about the State numbers but the National polling is how I'm doing this too. Unless that centre-of-gravity 9 pt lead narrows to below 6 by 3rd Nov I don't give Trump more than a lightening in a bottle chance.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited October 2020
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    I mean, there is movement. There is a clear narrowing on the 538 national polling average.

    6 days ago the lead was 10.7, now it is 9.8 and it moved consistently down through those 6 days.

    I would like the market to massively over react and make Biden evens again please.
    At that tremendously rapid rate of decline (0.15% per day), Trump will reach the 2.5% deficit he needs for an equal shot at the electoral college around December 10th, some 48 days from now...
  • Can anyone help Iain on why this might be the case?

    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1319652059784843264?s=20
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    Indeed, it would be ironic if Biden ends up with the highest share of the white vote for a Democratic candidate since Obama in 2008 but Trump narrowly wins re election because he gets the highest share of the black vote for a Republican candidate since Reagan in 1980 got 14% of African American support
    I don't think Trump will win but there's clearly a level of complexity to how people see him and the Republicans over there that people over here simply don't get.

    We should be a bit more humble and objective in assessing the situation and to do so dispassionately.
    Indeed, it reminds me of 2004, we Brits just did not get how on earth Americans could vote for Dubya over Kerry but forgetting that Dubya was looking to win over American voters to win a US election not win approval from voters in the UK.

    In US terms the UK would be a solid blue safe Democratic state in the North East, not a swing state in the MidWest
    Actually, I'm not sure it would. Particularly in England.

    We'd see American politics then through a domestic prism, not an international one, which would broaden and change our views on both the candidates.
    We would vote for Biden somewhere along the lines of the margin New Jersey or New York will vote for Biden in November, Trump might win a few rural or ex industrial parts of England but otherwise we would just slot into blue America.

    Though of course if post Brexit the UK became the 51st US state that would tip Presidential elections to the Democrats anyway, the UK would be the biggest state population wise in the US with even more EC votes than California and that would mean both Gore and Kerry would have won in 2000 and 2004 and Hillary would have won in 2016 and Biden would almost certainly win next month too
    The centre of US politics would shift and then Republicans and Democrats would fight over England as a swing state - we'd simply reach a new equilibrium.

    The Democrats identity politics and pro-union stance wouldn't go down particularly well in England. The Republicans would need to moderate their god, guns and gays brand and then there'd be a fair fight.
    "The Democrats ... pro-union stance" They'd want England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to be one state within the US?
    Pro labo[ur]r unions I think
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    felix said:

    On the Welsh supermarket thing - don't agree with the non-essential thing but presumably like Amazon they have online sales as well for these goods. Maybe they could open up some in-store terminals so people could do the 2 jobs together! bog roll off the shelf and the toilet seat on-line :wink:


    No, the rule applies to online supermarket orders in Wales as well -- I just tried to order some party goods for online delivery. Not permitted.

    I think the Welsh Tories (who suggested this) have managed to stitch Drakeford up nicely.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    edited October 2020
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden forecast lead in key states according to the Economist's election model.

    PA +5
    FL +3
    WI +6
    NC +2
    AZ +2

    https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president

    PA was +6 yesterday.

    We should probably add MI, NV and MN, to spice it up a bit.

    BUT... (and I know this is not the Politicalbetting way) I'd simply watch the national lead. 2.5% is the point at which Biden become (marginally) more likely than Trump to win.

    And what President Trump needs to see is *movement* (like he did with the IBD/TIPP poll two or three days ago). He needs to see those leads decreasing across the board.
    I love all the data and chat about the State numbers but the National polling is how I'm doing this too. Unless that centre-of-gravity 9 pt lead narrows to below 6 by 3rd Nov I don't give Trump more than a lightening in a bottle chance.
    The largest national polling miss since 1948 was 3.2% in 2012 (when the Democrats were understated). It is - of course - perfectly possible that it is the Democrats who are understated this time around, as polling errors usually oscillate.

    But let's assume that there's a 50% chance of a polling error favouring the Republicans, and a 50% chance it's 2% or more. President Trump needs to be 2.5% behind or less to have a 50% chance. Multiplying those up, we get a one-in-eight chance for President Trump if he's 4.5% behind on the day. Given we're currently at one in three for the President, the betting markets are basically saying that President Trump is going to be no more than 2.5% behind in the polls on election day.

    Which is perfectly possible, but it does need him to see movement.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Another reason why Johnson should step down.
    it also means that Trump is now, what, 84? He is even older than Biden.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Dems come in a touch to 1.49, lowest for a couple of weeks.

    Still a bit of 2.14 available on Biden in BF`s "Electoral College Vote H'cap - 100.5" market" if feeling ultra confident.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ...
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    What always fascinates me about betting, maybe it's just me that sees it this way, is how something with the same chance of happening, happening feels so different, ie Trump as a 2/1 shot winning the election would seem a shock, but if the favourite wins today's 400 at Newbury (Jumaira Bay, currently a 5/2 shot on Betfair) it will be nothing to talk about, despite it being less likely to happen, according to the market, than The Donald retaining the Presidency

    I think some of this is to do with binary vs multiple. For example -

    Race 1 has 10 runners all at 9/1.
    Race 2 has 2 runners, fav at 1/9, nag at 9/1.

    So, one of the 9/1 shots is bound to come in in Race 1. Therefore this will not feel like much of a surprise to an independent dispassionate observer who has no bet on. But if the 9/1 nag beats the 1/9 "racing certainty" in Race 2, that WILL feel like a real shock.

    So here, with the US election, it's like Race 2, a binary 2 horse race, and of course ... I'm going to enjoy this pay off sentence ... Trump is the Nag.
    Yeah that is partly it, but it still feels different to be on the 7/1f for the Grand National than it does West Ham tmrw vs City, to me anyway despite knowing this for 20 odd years

    So binary factor and also favourite vs outsider

    Actually that West Ham bet looks alright!
    Think I know what you'll say (which is the same as me) but let me check -

    Taking your 2 examples, do you instinctively feel your 7/1 fav National horse has a better or worse chance of winning than your 7/1 West Ham nag?
    Oh 100% better
    Right. Yes, ditto. (We'll assume no bias due to WH being your team and so you'd feel the same if it were say Palace.)

    Interesting that this directly conflicts with 2 old gambling sayings -

    "The bigger the field the bigger the certainty."

    "Always take the big odds on a 2 horse race."
    I support The Arsenal!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    felix said:

    On the Welsh supermarket thing - don't agree with the non-essential thing but presumably like Amazon they have online sales as well for these goods. Maybe they could open up some in-store terminals so people could do the 2 jobs together! bog roll off the shelf and the toilet seat on-line :wink:


    No, the rule applies to online supermarket orders in Wales as well -- I just tried to order some party goods for online delivery. Not permitted.

    I think the Welsh Tories (who suggested this) have managed to stitch Drakeford up nicely.
    You can't even order non-essentials online? Wow.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    rpjs said:

    Sandpit said:

    There's enough evidence that black voters are inclining more to Trump than in 2016 for this to be statistically significant.

    This doesn't mean all of them are or even a majority - in fact it's a larger minority - but it is worth closer inspection and not dismissal.

    There’s certainly a number of high-profile black republicans standing for congress this year. Wesley Hunt and Kimberly Klacik, to give two examples, have been getting a lot of airtime.
    I don't think there's any doubt that Trump might be doing slightly better with African-Americans in 2020 than 2016. The key though is whether the African-American voters that turned out for Obama-Biden, but not for Clinton-Kaine, will turn out for Biden-Harris. If enough of them do, it won't matter that Trump is doing better with the demographic.
    Yes. Turnout is more important imo. A strong Black turnout is good for Biden.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    On the Welsh supermarket thing - don't agree with the non-essential thing but presumably like Amazon they have online sales as well for these goods. Maybe they could open up some in-store terminals so people could do the 2 jobs together! bog roll off the shelf and the toilet seat on-line :wink:


    No, the rule applies to online supermarket orders in Wales as well -- I just tried to order some party goods for online delivery. Not permitted.

    I think the Welsh Tories (who suggested this) have managed to stitch Drakeford up nicely.
    You can't even order non-essentials online? Wow.
    What is the stated aim of the Welsh government in doing this?
This discussion has been closed.