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Working out Covid-19 and the political classes – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 18 in General
Working out Covid-19 and the political classes – politicalbetting.com

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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527
    Nice header. It is remarkable sometimes how disengaged Westminster politics is from reality.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,025
    FPT
    Scott_xP said:
    When Baroness Diana “Dido” Harding was handed the job of leading NHS test and trace, the dizzying brief that ministers set her was to beat the world. But it was not, she says, to save Britain. It may have seemed that her £12bn programme had the star role in keeping Covid-19 at bay and protecting the nation from a return to lockdown. Not so, she says.

    “Everyone wants to believe that test and trace is a silver bullet,” she said last week in a rare interview. “It has never been and it never will be. The virus unfortunately doesn’t behave in such a way that there is a silver bullet. The only way that we’re going to learn how to live with Covid is through a number of different interventions, of which test and trace is undoubtedly a very important one.”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/test-and-waste-dido-harding-boss-of-12bn-tracing-scheme-says-it-was-never-a-silver-bullet-s5n66rnjc

    Surely that is no more than common sense? It doesn't mean, of course, that T&T should not be more effective part of our armoury than it is right now.

    As a matter of interest a "self cleaning" T&T facility has now been set up by Mitie in Dundee. It is "generally" expected to give you a result within 12 hours using the QR code that you book it under. It's the first in Scotland but others are to be rolled out. It will employ 40 people so it will not be cheap but it does look a step in the right direction.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 655
    Trouble is...gym goers arent a big voting bloc in any constituency if they vote at all...... another space for N Farage et al. to exploit
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230
    edited October 18
    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,069

    Nice header. It is remarkable sometimes how disengaged Westminster politics is from reality.

    Excellent article indeed. Another point to consider is that if we have to live with significant covid risk long term, and we might do, then anything which helps tackle obesity, like gyms, is an important life and health saving measure against covid.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 31,850

    The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    Men just like talking about a load of balls.

    Ah, my coat.

    Have a good morning.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230
    ydoethur said:

    The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    Men just like talking about a load of balls.

    Ah, my coat.

    Have a good morning.
    :D:D Witty!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,025
    edited October 18
    Good header. Although my gym reopened about 6 weeks ago now and I haven't been near it, in fact I am getting around to cancelling my membership. I have real difficulty in seeing how gyms can control the risk of infection when people are inevitably breathing hard and sweating on the equipment.

    Even before Covid I would wipe down equipment and weights before I used them but I did not delude myself that this was sterilising them. I have just not persuaded myself it would be safe.

    Very hard to disagree with Alastair's more general point though. Ignoring such concerns will undermine support for the regimes that are brought in on a weekly basis now more than anything else. I was talking to the owner of our cheese shop yesterday about Christmas where he does serious trade. His view was that it would be the same as normal because even if there were regulations banning family gatherings people would just ignore them. I think that is probably right. Politicians need to learn to work with people again as, in fairness, they did in the early weeks of this.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,416
    FPT
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
    What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
    Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
    Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
    Actually from the evidence of the age breakdown from the Referendum onwards belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the EU fade with experience.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,655
    There is some evidence of gym induced spread.

    https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/spin-class-covid-outbreak

    Spin classes of closely situated heavy breathing aerobic exercise sound hazardous to me. Isometric exercise like weights are probably pretty safe.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,025
    Foxy said:

    There is some evidence of gym induced spread.

    https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/spin-class-covid-outbreak

    Spin classes of closely situated heavy breathing aerobic exercise sound hazardous to me. Isometric exercise like weights are probably pretty safe.

    Sweat? Is that a means of transmission? Genuinely asking but I assumed it could be.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,804
    edited October 18
    The practical problem is that gyms are a massive covid risk, if anywhere is going to be forced to close - and the British like to do things with rules rather than voluntary action and common sense, since they hate freedom - they're absolutely top of the list. You might just be able to fix it with heroically expensive ventilation systems but in practice they're just going to faff around with sanitization and things.

    The government could do more to give gyms money to compensate, but that won't satisfy the people who can't go to the gym. There's no way to satisfy these people consistent with public health, because they want to do something in the middle of a pandemic, and the thing they want to do spreads the pandemic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764
    edited October 18
    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,380
    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,943
    In the last few days I've done two Covid-related things. I've 'furloughed' ......suspended......my gym membership and, as part of the Imperial College led research study had a Covid test.
    I suspended gym membership because I wasn't happy at being in the same room as several other people, all breathing heavily. And cases are rising locally (Essex generally, and in this and the next district) TBH, if I (and my wife) could be shown evidence which suggested that gyms are, as Mr Meeks suggests, as safe as anywhere else I'd be ready to go back; it would be wrong to suggest I 'enjoy' my workout but I do think it does me good.
    As far as the test is concerned, I'm reasonably certain it'll come back negative, but I'd be rather p[leased if it suggested I'd had it, mildly, and as a consequence had the antibodies.
    But for that I shall have to wait for the results.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,025

    Nice header. It is remarkable sometimes how disengaged Westminster politics is from reality.

    Excellent article indeed. Another point to consider is that if we have to live with significant covid risk long term, and we might do, then anything which helps tackle obesity, like gyms, is an important life and health saving measure against covid.
    I did really well in lockdown 1 and actually lost about 30 pounds to get myself in a better place for Covid. Unfortunately half of this has come back on and I need to reinvigorate myself again. Its much harder at this time of year with the lack of daylight, cold and general dampness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,913

    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

    Pasties works just as well for me.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,943
    Foxy said:

    There is some evidence of gym induced spread.

    https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/spin-class-covid-outbreak

    Spin classes of closely situated heavy breathing aerobic exercise sound hazardous to me. Isometric exercise like weights are probably pretty safe.

    Yes; see above. I wouldn't go anywhere near a class, my workout was on apparatus which is quite away from anyone else.
    I would like to see some research results, though.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 3,514

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    I went away for a few days with three mates who unlike me are into football. None of their conversation was about results or on-pitch action. It was all about who said what, did what to whom and who might move to what club. It is the male equivalent of celebrity gossip, soap operas and reality TV.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,507

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    I share your bafflement.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,069
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Isnt London a fair bit below average nationally yet in Tier 2?

    London 780 per 100k
    England 1063 per 100k

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,507

    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

    Pasties works just as well for me.
    You mean they’re being used to provide cover for a bunch of tits ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,943

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
    What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
    Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
    Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
    Actually from the evidence of the age breakdown from the Referendum onwards belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the EU fade with experience.
    I'm really not sure about the last named. As a citizen I hope the more extreme forecasts of problems after Jan 1st 2021 are wrong, However, I suggest that if they are even half right Brexiteers may well be advised to stay indoors after about March.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Isnt London a fair bit below average nationally yet in Tier 2?

    London 780 per 100k
    England 1063 per 100k

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
    Making the whinging about the North being signalled out even more absurd
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,416

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Isnt London a fair bit below average nationally yet in Tier 2?

    London 780 per 100k
    England 1063 per 100k

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
    The difference between median and mode average matters here surely?

    Plus where cases are rising does not necessarily mean where they are highest.

    Plus of course the Mayor of London practically begged for this to be put in.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,913
    HYUFD said:
    I would hope cock-up rather than conspiracy. But one never knows with this shower.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764
    edited October 18
    Angus Robertson dragging out his 'celebrity' supporters
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    I went away for a few days with three mates who unlike me are into football. None of their conversation was about results or on-pitch action. It was all about who said what, did what to whom and who might move to what club. It is the male equivalent of celebrity gossip, soap operas and reality TV.
    Thank you for the insight :+1:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,913
    Nigelb said:

    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

    Pasties works just as well for me.
    You mean they’re being used to provide cover for a bunch of tits ?
    Thick and glutenous was what I had in mind.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Isnt London a fair bit below average nationally yet in Tier 2?

    London 780 per 100k
    England 1063 per 100k

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
    Yes especially low in South London but we are being put in tier 2 because of North London. You can bet if it was the other way round they wouldn't be bothering. Typical!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,368

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    Recreating the tribal mammoth hunt for the modern age is my theory.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 2,861
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Read the papers. The revolt isn’t over Tier 2, it’s about the proposal to move to Tier 3 in Greater Manchester, as has happened in Blackpool and others already.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,152
    The arts, football, gyms. All minority interests.

    FWIW I’ve just completed a 12 km walk. It’s still possible for people to exercise in a way that it isn’t possible for football fans to watch their team play.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 3,742
    Scott_xP said:
    Mature. Thoughful.

    Gove on Sky saying no circuit breaker, Farrar saying circuit breaker essential and we are now in the worst case scenario in the non forecast forecast.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 3,514
    DavidL said:

    Nice header. It is remarkable sometimes how disengaged Westminster politics is from reality.

    Excellent article indeed. Another point to consider is that if we have to live with significant covid risk long term, and we might do, then anything which helps tackle obesity, like gyms, is an important life and health saving measure against covid.
    I did really well in lockdown 1 and actually lost about 30 pounds to get myself in a better place for Covid. Unfortunately half of this has come back on and I need to reinvigorate myself again. Its much harder at this time of year with the lack of daylight, cold and general dampness.
    If you don't run, do C25k. Running is one of the easiest things to do in cold, dark weather. You can do it anywhere, at any time, and it naturally keeps you warm. You can do it with other people, or use it as time for some solitude, just jog round your local streets or go out for a run in the countryside. It's a good basis of fitness for other sports, or you can start doing it competitively yourself (when we're allowed to race again). Contrary to opinion it isn't bad for the knees, but does sometimes cause problems where people have messed up their knees doing other stuff, eg playing football.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    It's not genetic. I don't give a rat's arse about football, and neither do any of the males on my wife's side of the family, but my son is obsessed with it. Luckily he is loves playing it too, which gets him out of the house and channels some of his prodigious quantities of energy and aggression.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764

    HYUFD said:
    I would hope cock-up rather than conspiracy. But one never knows with this shower.
    As a Tory member and practicing Anglican I hope it is the former, he should have kept his peerage
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,069

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    I went away for a few days with three mates who unlike me are into football. None of their conversation was about results or on-pitch action. It was all about who said what, did what to whom and who might move to what club. It is the male equivalent of celebrity gossip, soap operas and reality TV.
    It is much more like a religion. You have temples (stadiums), managers (priests), saints (players), irrational beliefs (my team is the best), rituals (they will win if I do x,y or z superstition), pilgrimages (Wembley, European adventures), commitment to visit each week in a group with your community.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527
    Scott_xP said:
    Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia etc etc. Gove is a snake, the worst kind of self-serving, lying, pig-ignorant hack. I reckon he will be our next PM.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 4,323
    " The evidence that gyms spread Covid-19 is, perhaps surprisingly, absent."

    Absence of evidence is not ... you know how it goes.

    A few months back, there was no evidence that schools spread Covid-19. Given the virus is just coming up to its first birthday, not every possible research angle has been explored.

    There is no evidence that yodelling or opera singing lessons or Trump-ian rallies spread Covid-19.

    Still, they are activities that the prudent person avoids ... along with the gym.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,069
    edited October 18

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Isnt London a fair bit below average nationally yet in Tier 2?

    London 780 per 100k
    England 1063 per 100k

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
    The difference between median and mode average matters here surely?

    Plus where cases are rising does not necessarily mean where they are highest.

    Plus of course the Mayor of London practically begged for this to be put in.
    Yes it was largely/significantly driven by the Mayor, not "solely" where cases are rising most. These decisions are political as much as empirical.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,507

    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

    It’s annoyed some of their Tory colleagues, too.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54588025

    I think what really pissed off the northern leaders was that the original ‘discussions’ before these restrictions weren’t discussion at all, and that government refused even to listen to any points they wanted to make.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,380
    Politics is being dominated by the concerns of a particular slice of society with ready access to articulate middle class lobbyists.

    Absolutely - one reason why Italian ski-break holiday makers in the Spring among others were not quarantined on return and why the UK has made a complete shambles of its borders.
  • FPT

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
    What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
    Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
    Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
    Actually from the evidence of the age breakdown from the Referendum onwards belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the EU fade with experience.
    A lot depends on the correct answer to that question.

    There's always been a tendency for people to shift rightwards as they get older, but that effect has become massive in recent years. Is that a blip, or can the Conservatives keep converting lots of people to their cause, as their core vote literally dies off?

    Same with Brexit. The 1975 referendum is interesting from that point of view; it was the younger voters who were most anti-EEC. Crudely, the ones who experienced WW2 as stories, rather than something lived through. Makes sense, really.
    Those same baby boomers were the core Brexit demographic in 2016, including (I think) the extremely old being less keen on the idea than the less old. But the younger generations- the ones who have grown up with the EU as part of the furniture- simply aren't as bothered about the issues that animate Brexit.

    So whilst the coming generations may become more Conservative and Brexitty as they age, it's not a given. And Father Time means that both causes have to run awfully fast to stand still.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 2,861
    tlg86 said:

    The arts, football, gyms. All minority interests.

    FWIW I’ve just completed a 12 km walk. It’s still possible for people to exercise in a way that it isn’t possible for football fans to watch their team play.

    Indeed it is. But that doesn’t help employees in what is a massive industry.

    I am not sure why you say the arts is a minority interest? Where do you think the actors who appear on TV and film come from? How do chart acts get exposure before being signed without venues? TV and Hollywood need theatres and drama schools like Premier League clubs need grassroots football. Without them both would be starved of talent.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,804

    " The evidence that gyms spread Covid-19 is, perhaps surprisingly, absent."

    Absence of evidence is not ... you know how it goes.

    A few months back, there was no evidence that schools spread Covid-19. Given the virus is just coming up to its first birthday, not every possible research angle has been explored.

    There is no evidence that yodelling or opera singing lessons or Trump-ian rallies spread Covid-19.

    Still, they are activities that the prudent person avoids ... along with the gym.

    I think you can put this point more strongly. I know this isn't systematic but there are gym-centred clusters everywhere, anywhere that has a few hundred cases and enough contact tracing to know where some of them happened seems to have found a gym cluster.
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gym+clusters+covid&ia=web
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764
    edited October 18
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Read the papers. The revolt isn’t over Tier 2, it’s about the proposal to move to Tier 3 in Greater Manchester, as has happened in Blackpool and others already.
    Greater Manchester currently has 64,000 covid cases, only just behind Greater London on 69,000 cases and the second highest of any county or urban area in the UK despite the fact Greater London has almost 4 times the population of Greater Manchester

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/europe/united-kingdom-coronavirus-cases.html

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 2,861
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Read the papers. The revolt isn’t over Tier 2, it’s about the proposal to move to Tier 3 in Greater Manchester, as has happened in Blackpool and others already.
    Greater Manchester currently has 64,000 covid cases, only just behind Greater London on 69,000 cases and the second highest of any county or urban area in the UK despite the fact Greater London has almost 4 times the population of Greater Manchester

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/europe/united-kingdom-coronavirus-cases.html

    As I say, tell them that. When the situation was reversed in March and London was worse we had a national lockdown. It’s the people in the North you need to persuade. Their votes for your team are recent and can be swept out as fast as they were swept in. Your team needs to get its message over better.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,025

    DavidL said:

    Nice header. It is remarkable sometimes how disengaged Westminster politics is from reality.

    Excellent article indeed. Another point to consider is that if we have to live with significant covid risk long term, and we might do, then anything which helps tackle obesity, like gyms, is an important life and health saving measure against covid.
    I did really well in lockdown 1 and actually lost about 30 pounds to get myself in a better place for Covid. Unfortunately half of this has come back on and I need to reinvigorate myself again. Its much harder at this time of year with the lack of daylight, cold and general dampness.
    If you don't run, do C25k. Running is one of the easiest things to do in cold, dark weather. You can do it anywhere, at any time, and it naturally keeps you warm. You can do it with other people, or use it as time for some solitude, just jog round your local streets or go out for a run in the countryside. It's a good basis of fitness for other sports, or you can start doing it competitively yourself (when we're allowed to race again). Contrary to opinion it isn't bad for the knees, but does sometimes cause problems where people have messed up their knees doing other stuff, eg playing football.
    I did that, its a really good program. I am now on the 5-10k challenge but, unlike you, I find running in the cold and dark pretty unattractive. The challenge is to run 3x a week. In the Spring the courts completely ground to a halt and I had a fair bit of time on my hands. Now, they are trying to get back and work has picked up. More time sitting at the computer in the house with a ready supply of coffee and snacks has been my downfall!
  • HYUFD said:
    I would hope cock-up rather than conspiracy. But one never knows with this shower.
    Simplest explanation is that this government is packed with people who struggle with the concept that other people really exist except as a backdrop to My Heroic Story.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,380

    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

    Pasties works just as well for me.
    I suppose some of them are Cornish!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    I would hope cock-up rather than conspiracy. But one never knows with this shower.
    As a Tory member and practicing Anglican I hope it is the former, he should have kept his peerage
    Did he have a temporary one? "I dub thee Lord Sentamu for 3 years, 5 months and 2 days"?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
    What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
    Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
    Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
    Actually from the evidence of the age breakdown from the Referendum onwards belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the EU fade with experience.
    A lot depends on the correct answer to that question.

    There's always been a tendency for people to shift rightwards as they get older, but that effect has become massive in recent years. Is that a blip, or can the Conservatives keep converting lots of people to their cause, as their core vote literally dies off?

    Same with Brexit. The 1975 referendum is interesting from that point of view; it was the younger voters who were most anti-EEC. Crudely, the ones who experienced WW2 as stories, rather than something lived through. Makes sense, really.
    Those same baby boomers were the core Brexit demographic in 2016, including (I think) the extremely old being less keen on the idea than the less old. But the younger generations- the ones who have grown up with the EU as part of the furniture- simply aren't as bothered about the issues that animate Brexit.

    So whilst the coming generations may become more Conservative and Brexitty as they age, it's not a given. And Father Time means that both causes have to run awfully fast to stand still.
    Agreed on boomers vs their parents. My grandmother, who drove an ambulance during the blitz in Plymouth, voted Remain, I think her last vote before she died. She was also a total Tory so it was probably the only election where we voted the same way. She came from a solid working class background, left school at 16, and she and my grandfather worked hard and did OK for themselves. She thought that Brexit was lunacy. We didn't agree on much but she was extremely bright and dead right on Brexit.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,069
    Scott_xP said:
    I heard the govt told Lancashire council leaders that if they publicly support the govt they get a multi million support package, but if they criticise them they will get £0! It really is a spiteful and shameless govt we have.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,943

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    It's not genetic. I don't give a rat's arse about football, and neither do any of the males on my wife's side of the family, but my son is obsessed with it. Luckily he is loves playing it too, which gets him out of the house and channels some of his prodigious quantities of energy and aggression.
    Yep, we're missed like that. Paternal grandfather liked the game, but not irrationally, father was a rugby union man, I have my days of watching, but by no means obsessively eldest son doesn't give the proverbial bat younger son is, and always has been mad about the game.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 2,861
    edited October 18

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    I would hope cock-up rather than conspiracy. But one never knows with this shower.
    As a Tory member and practicing Anglican I hope it is the former, he should have kept his peerage
    Did he have a temporary one? "I dub thee Lord Sentamu for 3 years, 5 months and 2 days"?
    Yes he did. He was a Lord Spiritual, their membership of the Lords ends when they leave their associated bishopric, then controversy is that normally it gets translated into a Life Peerage straight away.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527

    Scott_xP said:
    I heard the govt told Lancashire council leaders that if they publicly support the govt they get a multi million support package, but if they criticise them they will get £0! It really is a spiteful and shameless govt we have.
    It's also totally corrupt to use taxpayers' money to buy political support. These people are beneath contempt.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Read the papers. The revolt isn’t over Tier 2, it’s about the proposal to move to Tier 3 in Greater Manchester, as has happened in Blackpool and others already.
    Greater Manchester currently has 64,000 covid cases, only just behind Greater London on 69,000 cases and the second highest of any county or urban area in the UK despite the fact Greater London has almost 4 times the population of Greater Manchester

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/europe/united-kingdom-coronavirus-cases.html

    As I say, tell them that. When the situation was reversed in March and London was worse we had a national lockdown. It’s the people in the North you need to persuade. Their votes for your team are recent and can be swept out as fast as they were swept in. Your team needs to get its message over better.
    The Tories only won 9 out of 27 Greater Manchester seats even when they won a landslide nationally last year, however decisions on tiers must be based on the case rises anyway without the economic damage of a full national lockdown again.

    Much of the North is still in neither Tier 2 or 3, that includes Cumbria, North Yorkshire, Hull and Humberside while London and Essex are in Tier 2
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,943
    Scott_xP said:
    Not a football obsessive, but surely ATM Greater Manchester is City!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,293
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Mature. Thoughful.

    Gove on Sky saying no circuit breaker, Farrar saying circuit breaker essential and we are now in the worst case scenario in the non forecast forecast.
    Dunt does tend to go potty mouth a bit too quickly even for my puerile taste, but it is VERY difficult to think of Gove without the 'w' word popping into one's head.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
    What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
    Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
    Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
    Actually from the evidence of the age breakdown from the Referendum onwards belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the EU fade with experience.
    A lot depends on the correct answer to that question.

    There's always been a tendency for people to shift rightwards as they get older, but that effect has become massive in recent years. Is that a blip, or can the Conservatives keep converting lots of people to their cause, as their core vote literally dies off?

    Same with Brexit. The 1975 referendum is interesting from that point of view; it was the younger voters who were most anti-EEC. Crudely, the ones who experienced WW2 as stories, rather than something lived through. Makes sense, really.
    Those same baby boomers were the core Brexit demographic in 2016, including (I think) the extremely old being less keen on the idea than the less old. But the younger generations- the ones who have grown up with the EU as part of the furniture- simply aren't as bothered about the issues that animate Brexit.

    So whilst the coming generations may become more Conservative and Brexitty as they age, it's not a given. And Father Time means that both causes have to run awfully fast to stand still.
    Agreed on boomers vs their parents. My grandmother, who drove an ambulance during the blitz in Plymouth, voted Remain, I think her last vote before she died. She was also a total Tory so it was probably the only election where we voted the same way. She came from a solid working class background, left school at 16, and she and my grandfather worked hard and did OK for themselves. She thought that Brexit was lunacy. We didn't agree on much but she was extremely bright and dead right on Brexit.
    The Boomers are the generation that have always been anti-Europe. I think they felt cheated by the decline in Empire and having missed out on the "excitement" of the War as portrayed by dozens and dozens of war movies telling heroic deeds of derring-do.

    People who lived through the war or fought in it were pro-Europe. They had seen the senseless horrors and knew that safety and progress lay in togetherness and cooperation, not in building walls or shouting at your nearest neighbours.

    In the meantime we have Covid which helps disguise the fact that the Great Brexit C*ck-up is approaching its dénoument ...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,480
    Help. I need the PB brains trust, especially the legal types.

    Can someone enlighten me on the Tier 2 regulations? A mate has agreed to give a family member (of mine) a lift to a GP for an appointment. The mate is now wondering whether that breaks the rules (they live in another household) and is worried that they may technically be breaking the law.

    I'm pretty sure that there is a general exemption for helping people in medical situations. But I need to be a bit firmer.

    The alternative is a taxi, which seems actually more risky to me, as god knows who has been in the cab that morning.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,965

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:
    So really clear that those ruling us are a million miles from what we want

    Not sustainable

    Viva Le Republic de Mancunia
    On which subject here is Jen Williams' digest of the week.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/melodrama-melancholy-madness-inside-greater-19122824

    "The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.

    “It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.

    “Covid has really been the last straw.” "
    There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.

    Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.

    We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
    Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?

    Brexit.

    Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
    "Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north.
    From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
    It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.

    If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
    This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
    What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
    Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
    Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
    Actually from the evidence of the age breakdown from the Referendum onwards belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the EU fade with experience.
    In your head maybe but any polling I have seen recently definitely does not support the idea that Brexit is winning people around. Remain views appear to be rock solid and, from memory, the last poll I saw had the number of voters saying that Brexit was the right thing to do down to 39%, 11% behind those who believe it is wrong.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,455
    Very good article, Alastair.

    The UK has a class problem but is obsessed with convincing itself it has the same race problem as America instead. The common thread are middle class lobbyists, think tanks, academics and intellectuals.

    As far as the working class go, and particularly the WWC, there's no party in Westminster that really speaks for them and their lifestyle interests anymore - they are the lowest priority group in the intersectional culture wars.
  • If Gove says no lockdown, it will be announced this week.

    The Tories have made a complete and utter mess of Brexit.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230
    Foxy said:

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    I was a late convert to football, with only a minor interest as a child. I only really got interested with the 2002 World Cup. Fox jr (aged 8 at the time), watched every match getting up at 0600 to do so. So after that finished, I said I would take him to a live game, and got tickets to see Leicester play Gillingham. We won 2:1 and were hooked, that season we got promoted to the PL and I have had a seasons ticket most of the time since.

    Football is a great game, both to play and to watch. The rules are simple, the equipment minimal, and subtlety immense. It needs to be watched live to really get the bug.

    Being in a football crowd gives a sense of social solidarity and belonging, as well as a waypoint in the week. The structure of the game means that few teams can win a trophy, so there are endless talking points about what should be done to improve the team.

    There is also the pantomime element of crowd involvement, booing the villans, (though I don't like to boo my own side until the final whistle) and cheering the heros. Football chants can be mindless but can also be very witty. Being in a football crowd is one of few socially acceptable places to shout at people in public, a great way of letting off steam.

    I also find it a great icebreaker with patients, and many regulars do discuss LCFC with me in consultations. The students are sometimes bemused, but the art of consultation is to establish rapport, and having football knowledge works very well, particularly across social clases and ages. You can only discuss the weather so far.

    I really miss going to games. Leicester play Villa tonight, and we really love to beat the Villa*. The last match I went to was a week before the lockdown and we thrashed them. It was only 7 months ago, but being in a crowd of 32000 loudly singing "that's why you're going down!" seems a lifetime ago.

    *tonight seems tricky. We have a defensive injury crisis, and Vardy may not be fit. It's not going to be a nil nil. Villa look value to win.


    A world I never knew existed :D:D

    Thank you!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,455

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    I have no interest in football.

    I'm not usual though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,480
    Scott_xP said:
    Rawnsley reports that Gove is basically absolutely shitting the bed over a No Deal crash out as he has been trying to implement the counter measures to contain the chaos, especially on foods and meds. He has presented Treasury with an "eye watering" bill of cost of a No Deal countermeasures and Sunak has gone white with fear. We are talking massive government debt on top of already massive covid debt.

    There is now a "No to No Deal" group of Cabinet ministers.

    Let's hope they prevail and stop Cummings lunacy.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,974

    The practical problem is that gyms are a massive covid risk, if anywhere is going to be forced to close - and the British like to do things with rules rather than voluntary action and common sense, since they hate freedom - they're absolutely top of the list. You might just be able to fix it with heroically expensive ventilation systems but in practice they're just going to faff around with sanitization and things.

    The government could do more to give gyms money to compensate, but that won't satisfy the people who can't go to the gym. There's no way to satisfy these people consistent with public health, because they want to do something in the middle of a pandemic, and the thing they want to do spreads the pandemic.

    I'd think that was true, so I do support closing gyms. But Alastair's wider point is true too. I'm a fairly conventional politician in some ways, and I think schools and unis and major factories are jolly important, but I've never even considered visiting a gym, any more than a boxing match or a German beer hall - they're all outside my cultural reference area, and at some level I (therefore?) instinctively think of them as less important or even, as Hillary Clinton might say, deplorable - why aren't the body-builders reading books or distributing political leaflets, eh? That kind of thinking does contribute to the cultural alienation which feeds issues like Brexit and politicians like Trump, and people like me need to get past ourselves. Thanks for the thought-provoking piece.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,394
    edited October 18

    Help. I need the PB brains trust, especially the legal types.

    Can someone enlighten me on the Tier 2 regulations? A mate has agreed to give a family member (of mine) a lift to a GP for an appointment. The mate is now wondering whether that breaks the rules (they live in another household) and is worried that they may technically be breaking the law.

    I'm pretty sure that there is a general exemption for helping people in medical situations. But I need to be a bit firmer.

    The alternative is a taxi, which seems actually more risky to me, as god knows who has been in the cab that morning.

    As far as I'm aware, It's not illegal to share a car, regardless of the reason. It's only advised that you do not.

    EDIT: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-safer-travel-guidance-for-passengers#private-cars-and-other-vehicles , https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid-alert-level-high#travel

    *SHOULD* avoid, not *MUST* avoid. Fill your boots.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,380
    Does the incompetence know no bounds?



    If it was "too large" why the feck are people like Jo Johnson, Claire Fox or Lebedev there?
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 655
    This EU "Australia-style" arrangement being talked about for the UK.... I cant see how that would reflect the reality- Australian exports are dependent on China in ways that the UK could never be - is it because key UK voters think wealth, sunshine and warm feelings when Australia is mentioned, a bit like a security blanket, but wholly misleading?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 11,604
    In an intellectually and morally bankrupt government, Michael Gove is the most intellectually and morally bankrupt of them all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 77,764

    Does the incompetence know no bounds?



    If it was "too large" why the feck are people like Jo Johnson, Claire Fox or Lebedev there?
    Jo Johnson also now a peer, I agree and I think this is the worst decision Boris has made since he became PM. Hopefully Sentamu gets it in the next round
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 2,861
    Foxy said:



    I was a late convert to football, with only a minor interest as a child. I only really got interested with the 2002 World Cup. Fox jr (aged 8 at the time), watched every match getting up at 0600 to do so. So after that finished, I said I would take him to a live game, and got tickets to see Leicester play Gillingham. We won 2:1 and were hooked, that season we got promoted to the PL and I have had a seasons ticket most of the time since.

    Football is a great game, both to play and to watch. The rules are simple, the equipment minimal, and subtlety immense. It needs to be watched live to really get the bug.

    Being in a football crowd gives a sense of social solidarity and belonging, as well as a waypoint in the week. The structure of the game means that few teams can win a trophy, so there are endless talking points about what should be done to improve the team.

    There is also the pantomime element of crowd involvement, booing the villans, (though I don't like to boo my own side until the final whistle) and cheering the heros. Football chants can be mindless but can also be very witty. Being in a football crowd is one of few socially acceptable places to shout at people in public, a great way of letting off steam.

    I also find it a great icebreaker with patients, and many regulars do discuss LCFC with me in consultations. The students are sometimes bemused, but the art of consultation is to establish rapport, and having football knowledge works very well, particularly across social clases and ages. You can only discuss the weather so far.

    I really miss going to games. Leicester play Villa tonight, and we really love to beat the Villa*. The last match I went to was a week before the lockdown and we thrashed them. It was only 7 months ago, but being in a crowd of 32000 loudly singing "that's why you're going down!" seems a lifetime ago.

    *tonight seems tricky. We have a defensive injury crisis, and Vardy may not be fit. It's not going to be a nil nil. Villa look value to win.

    I had the opposite experience. My Mum’s from Felixstowe so growing up as a small child I was swept along by the success of Bobby Robson’s Ipswich. My Dad was a useful player, Yorkshire Schoolboys, England Universities, and in the reserves for a couple of lower League clubs. Then, in 1984/85, Town got relegated, Heysel happened, I abjectly failed to get selected for my new Secondary School team. So I fell out of love rapidly. Dad’s abject disappointment didn’t help (you want a North South divide? Take a look at my then relationship with my Father). I had a brief resurgence of mild interest in the 90s at Uni but haven’t given a toss otherwise since. Shame because, as you say, good icebreaker.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,069
    edited October 18
    FF43 said:

    In an intellectually and morally bankrupt government, Michael Gove is the most intellectually and morally bankrupt of them all.

    Grant Shapps wants a word on the morally. And Williamson on the intellectually.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,293
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I live in Epping and we are now in Tier 2 too as is my sister in Beckenham and my cousin and family in Elmbridge as well, it is not just the North and Midlands you know, indeed some parts of the North are still only in Tier 1.

    The tiers are solely based on where cases are rising most
    Read the papers. The revolt isn’t over Tier 2, it’s about the proposal to move to Tier 3 in Greater Manchester, as has happened in Blackpool and others already.
    Greater Manchester currently has 64,000 covid cases, only just behind Greater London on 69,000 cases and the second highest of any county or urban area in the UK despite the fact Greater London has almost 4 times the population of Greater Manchester

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/europe/united-kingdom-coronavirus-cases.html

    As I say, tell them that. When the situation was reversed in March and London was worse we had a national lockdown. It’s the people in the North you need to persuade. Their votes for your team are recent and can be swept out as fast as they were swept in. Your team needs to get its message over better.
    The Tories only won 9 out of 27 Greater Manchester seats even when they won a landslide nationally last year, however decisions on tiers must be based on the case rises anyway without the economic damage of a full national lockdown again.

    Much of the North is still in neither Tier 2 or 3, that includes Cumbria, North Yorkshire, Hull and Humberside while London and Essex are in Tier 2
    Good to see that you've worked out what your nation is.

    What level of dissent from 'the North' would require an armed intervention d'ye think?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,455
    The Left, with a level of patronisation only they specialise in, think Sentamu should have been given a peerage because he's black.

    I think he should be given a peerage because he's a retiring archbishop and has made an extraordinary contribution to public debate - which he will continue to do in the Lords - including speaking out sensibly for cultural conservatism when rather few of his colleagues in the Synod were doing so.

    He's intelligent, rational, moderate and sensible - Boris should be bending over backwards to honour him appropriately.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,527

    Scott_xP said:
    Rawnsley reports that Gove is basically absolutely shitting the bed over a No Deal crash out as he has been trying to implement the counter measures to contain the chaos, especially on foods and meds. He has presented Treasury with an "eye watering" bill of cost of a No Deal countermeasures and Sunak has gone white with fear. We are talking massive government debt on top of already massive covid debt.

    There is now a "No to No Deal" group of Cabinet ministers.

    Let's hope they prevail and stop Cummings lunacy.
    It is inconceivable to me that they will countenance no deal in the current circumstances. If they do it will simply prove that the government is so inept, irresponsible and criminally negligent that even a harsh critic like me couldn't imagine it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,152

    Responding to @IshmaelZ - The obsession with football, mostly by men, utterly baffles me. It is way beyond an interest and it starts early. I have seen 5 year old boys in tears because they are out with their mothers and missing whatever football match is on.

    Is it genetic? Is there something programmed into the male brain to yell and scream as a ball gets kicked about?

    [Edit: and to sit around for 2 or 3 hours before the match talking about it and then to sit around after the match talking about it even more. Why?]

    I have no interest in football.

    I'm not usual though.
    I don’t think you’re unusual. I think you’re perhaps unusual on here, though. People who want to get on politics are likely to want to bet on sports.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 42,380
    Nigelb said:

    I suspect Mr Herdson means "patsies", but the point stands:

    It’s annoyed some of their Tory colleagues, too.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54588025

    I think what really pissed off the northern leaders was that the original ‘discussions’ before these restrictions weren’t discussion at all, and that government refused even to listen to any points they wanted to make.
    As often the case, local journalists put their London colleagues to shame:

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,025

    Does the incompetence know no bounds?



    If it was "too large" why the feck are people like Jo Johnson, Claire Fox or Lebedev there?
    I think that his voting record might give a clue:
    https://members.parliament.uk/member/3762/voting

    He has consistently voted against all Brexit legislation.
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