Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
I knew you’d say that - which is why I had this post predrafted.
You are obsessed with 2016. 2016 is over, gone, in the past. They are all in that picture Michigan voters who have made their minds up already. They are baked in. He needs to swing some from the Dem and undecided camp over. Even your beloved Trafalgar Group only has him 1 point up In Michigan - they overstated him by nearly 2 points in 2016. The rest have him deep underwater. You continually say you expect 2016 polling results to repeat. So on your own logic, unless Trafalgar have changed their model their model to improve accuracy (they haven’t changed it) he is, on your assumption that 2016 results repeat, probably losing even with Trafalgar.
He has terrible marks even from Republicans on his Covid-19 response. Pictures like this on the TV will just reenforce those terrible optics. That, together with shots of him encouraging the crowd to shout “lock her up” about their own elected governor, whose only crime appears to have been to put in place stringent but popular lockdown measures, a rally will not do what it did last time. Whitmer is quite popular (51% favourable to 41% unfavourable in the last poll I saw) Clinton wasn’t at all popular. So encouraging those chats against, a popular governor in her own state, will have a negative effect In Michigan. It’s a different world, different priorities and a different candidate. Trump isn’t a fresh unknown anymore. Unlike 2016 there is a rampant deadly pandemic that has been worsened by these very rallies.
Finally, I have permission to share this from my wife. My wife’s godparents are registered Republicans. The husband is a massive, enormous, Trump fan. The wife loathes Trump with a passion. She confided this to my mother-in-law (her best friend) on condition the husband must never find out. My mother-in-law told my wife though. So there are, anecdotally at least, “Shy Bidenites” as well.
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
I thought the whole point of the Google and Apple API was that it was anonymous?
The anonymous bit is the Bluetooth proximity data from the Apple/Google API. The data that's shared with authorities is the check-in data from venues - mainly because fewer than 20% of people are isolating or getting tested, when told to by the Track and Trace team.
How does that work?
I scan a QR code at a venue using my anonymous C-19 app.
How can that possibly be stored anywhere else than on my phone?
Someone, I forget who, sorry, suggested Biden at 41 on Betfair for over 60% vote share. That's now layable at 25, although the way things are going you might prefer to just let it stand.
Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
I knew you’d say that - which is why I had this post predrafted.
You are obsessed with 2016. 2016 is over, gone, in the past. They are all in that picture Michigan voters who have made their minds up already. They are baked in. He needs to swing some from the Dem and undecided camp over. Even your beloved Trafalgar Group only has him 1 point up In Michigan - they overstated him by nearly 2 points in 2016. The rest have him deep underwater. You continually say you expect 2016 polling results to repeat. So on your own logic, unless Trafalgar have changed their model their model to improve accuracy (they haven’t changed it) he is, on your assumption that 2016 results repeat, probably losing even with Trafalgar.
He has terrible marks even from Republicans on his Covid-19 response. Pictures like this on the TV will just reenforce those terrible optics. That, together with shots of him encouraging the crowd to shout “lock her up” about their own elected governor, whose only crime appears to have been to put in place stringent but popular lockdown measures, a rally will not do what it did last time. Whitmer is quite popular (51% favourable to 41% unfavourable in the last poll I saw) Clinton wasn’t at all popular. So encouraging those chats against, a popular governor in her own state, will have a negative effect In Michigan. It’s a different world, different priorities and a different candidate. Trump isn’t a fresh unknown anymore. Unlike 2016 there is a rampant deadly pandemic that has been worsened by these very rallies.
Finally, I have permission to share this from my wife. My wife’s godparents are registered Republicans. The husband is a massive, enormous, Trump fan. The wife loathes Trump with a passion. She confided this to my mother-in-law (her best friend) on condition the husband must never find out. My mother-in-law told my wife though. So there are, anecdotally at least, “Shy Bidenites” as well.
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
I thought the whole point of the Google and Apple API was that it was anonymous?
The anonymous bit is the Bluetooth proximity data from the Apple/Google API. The data that's shared with authorities is the check-in data from venues - mainly because fewer than 20% of people are isolating or getting tested, when told to by the Track and Trace team.
How does that work?
I scan a QR code at a venue using my anonymous C-19 app.
How can that possibly be stored anywhere else than on my phone?
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing ... Like the rest of the app, QR codes don’t send any information to a central server and they don’t store people’s personal information. They exist as a way for people to remember where they have been, in case they need to tell contact tracers their activities. The QR code function can be turned on and off in the app and it’s possible to delete the records they create.
QR code check-ins are stored on a phone for 21 days – this allows for 14 days for the virus to appear and seven days when people are most likely to be infectious....
Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
Don't you think there might have been a lot of anti-Trump voters last time who sat on their hands, and might actually vote this time?
If they were really anti Trump they would not have sat on their hands but voted against him in 2016 for Hillary
Oh, FFS. Trump in power was an unknown quantity in 2016. Now he is a known quantity.
Plus not many took Trump seriously or thought he could actually won in 2016. Now they're not making the same mistake again.
We lived this experience ourselves in 2017/19 with Corbyn.
HYUFD's inability to see the parallels between Corbyn and Trump (parallels even Corbyn's own team made in 2016) blinds him to a very powerful lesson.
Someone, I forget who, sorry, suggested Biden at 41 on Betfair for over 60% vote share. That's now layable at 25, although the way things are going you might prefer to just let it stand.
Flattered someone remembered my tip. I'm letting it ride.
Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
I knew you’d say that - which is why I had this post predrafted.
You are obsessed with 2016. 2016 is over, gone, in the past. They are all in that picture Michigan voters who have made their minds up already. They are baked in. He needs to swing some from the Dem and undecided camp over. Even your beloved Trafalgar Group only has him 1 point up In Michigan - they overstated him by nearly 2 points in 2016. The rest have him deep underwater. You continually say you expect 2016 polling results to repeat. So on your own logic, unless Trafalgar have changed their model their model to improve accuracy (they haven’t changed it) he is, on your assumption that 2016 results repeat, probably losing even with Trafalgar.
He has terrible marks even from Republicans on his Covid-19 response. Pictures like this on the TV will just reenforce those terrible optics. That, together with shots of him encouraging the crowd to shout “lock her up” about their own elected governor, whose only crime appears to have been to put in place stringent but popular lockdown measures, a rally will not do what it did last time. Whitmer is quite popular (51% favourable to 41% unfavourable in the last poll I saw) Clinton wasn’t at all popular. So encouraging those chats against, a popular governor in her own state, will have a negative effect In Michigan. It’s a different world, different priorities and a different candidate. Trump isn’t a fresh unknown anymore. Unlike 2016 there is a rampant deadly pandemic that has been worsened by these very rallies.
Finally, I have permission to share this from my wife. My wife’s godparents are registered Republicans. The husband is a massive, enormous, Trump fan. The wife loathes Trump with a passion. She confided this to my mother-in-law (her best friend) on condition the husband must never find out. My mother-in-law told my wife though. So there are, anecdotally at least, “Shy Bidenites” as well.
This may well Seal Trump’s defeat.
Trump’s certainly Doug a hole for himself.
I might change my real name to Doug Seal but at CrossFit I’m “Bernie Daytona” which remains the favourite.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I am surprised that a personal freedoms warrior like David Davis hasn't jumped on this. It would seem to make mandatory identity cards look like a drop in the ocean.
A vanity by election in Haltemprice and Howden anyone?
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
Indeed. I have not downloaded any Covid app nor have I got a QR code to wave around and I do not intend to get one either. If somewhere requires me to get one before entering their premises then they can manage without my business.
The business has the QR code, typically printed on A4 posters stuck on the wall. The customer scans the pub's or restaurant's QR code, using the app on their smartphone.
Whatever. I have been avoiding restaurants and pubs. I was never a big pubgoer but I like to eat out with friends. Whilst Covid is an issue I have simply stopped eating out.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
I thought the whole point of the Google and Apple API was that it was anonymous?
The anonymous bit is the Bluetooth proximity data from the Apple/Google API. The data that's shared with authorities is the check-in data from venues - mainly because fewer than 20% of people are isolating or getting tested, when told to by the Track and Trace team.
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
I thought the whole point of the Google and Apple API was that it was anonymous?
The anonymous bit is the Bluetooth proximity data from the Apple/Google API. The data that's shared with authorities is the check-in data from venues - mainly because fewer than 20% of people are isolating or getting tested, when told to by the Track and Trace team.
How does that work?
I scan a QR code at a venue using my anonymous C-19 app.
How can that possibly be stored anywhere else than on my phone?
AIUI the App will send you an alert if you have been in "close contact" with someone who has tested positive, and you are then required (the breach of which is an offence) to self isolate for 14 days. The App will then count down the period during which you are required to self quarantine.
What you are saying is that they can't check this remotely - and therefore the chances of getting caught are low. It remains an offence, nevertheless, even if you test negative. And, as with other offences where the chance of detection is low (which includes effectively everything in the pages of Coronavirus Regulations just agreed), it isn't zero. In various circumstances I imagine the police could inspect your phone.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
Although, and presumably it won't make a difference as nobody understands how the app works, but the "track and trace data" is the scanning of QR codes to get into venues. It would equally apply to venues still asking for names and phone numbers on entry. And the way that the QR codes on the app work, you can basically check into the venue and immediately check out again. It's not the bluetooth notifications which are anonymous.
If the government does not care about privacy then it could get more reliable data on who was where when from payment card companies.
The information now liable to be shared with police does not originate from the app, but from NHS track and trace. It is the names of those instructed to self isolate. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54586897
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
I thought the whole point of the Google and Apple API was that it was anonymous?
The anonymous bit is the Bluetooth proximity data from the Apple/Google API. The data that's shared with authorities is the check-in data from venues - mainly because fewer than 20% of people are isolating or getting tested, when told to by the Track and Trace team.
How does that work?
I scan a QR code at a venue using my anonymous C-19 app.
How can that possibly be stored anywhere else than on my phone?
Having woken up and done some reading, it appears to be that the data being shared is data from Test and Trace team, rather than data from the mobile app.
Mr. Pete, driving licences and forms of ID can be very useful. Mandatory systems with accompanying databases full of personal information are rather less appealing.
Good morning everyone. Cheered myself up last night reading one of Bill Bryson’s books about European travel in the late 70’s. Or possibly early 80’s. Using francs and marks. And Travellers Cheques. No mention of credit cards and ATM’s!
Mr. Stocky, must agree that the intended good of enforcement will be far outweighed by people deleting the app and therefore decreasing its usefulness.
I was never going to let an App force me to stay at home for two weeks in any case.
It's one thing going to get a test and staying away from people until you get the result. It's another having some geek's algorithm make a criminal of you if you leave home during 14 days.
I thought the whole point of the Google and Apple API was that it was anonymous?
The anonymous bit is the Bluetooth proximity data from the Apple/Google API. The data that's shared with authorities is the check-in data from venues - mainly because fewer than 20% of people are isolating or getting tested, when told to by the Track and Trace team.
No, that is wrong.
Yes, I was going by when others had posted here. It does actually appear that the check-in data is anonymous, so I stand corrected.
Will any British Vice-Chancellors follow that lead and fall on their own sword I wonder? Actually I don't wonder, of course they won't. Why did universities not routinely test arrivals, given they have labs and resources to do so?
Leicester did, and publishes the results. After a surge last week, seems to be reducing.
This is going to be the justice who replaces Ginsburg ? Repulsive.
Her decision that the County were liable in that situation is also the law in this country with Supreme Court authority. The test in this country is whether there was a close connection between the employment and the wrongful act. So in Lister-v-Hesley Hall Ltd 2002 the Supreme Court held an employer liable for acts of sexual abuse of children by a warden in their employ. More recently the Supreme Court has backed off a bit. In Wm Morrison Supermarkets-v-various claimants decided in the last few months the supermarket was not vicariously liable for an employee who had used his access to customers personal data to pursue a vendetta. He had taken the data home on a memory stick and loaded it onto a public website.
To be honest the law is a bit of a mess here but the Supreme Court confirmed that Lister still applied in the appropriate circumstances so they would presumably have come to the same view as Barratt. I am baffled as to why you think her decision was "repulsive".
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
According to the BBC: People in England who have been told to self-isolate through NHS Test and Trace could have their details shared with the police on a "case-by-case basis".
Forces will have access to information telling them if an individual has been told to self-isolate, the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) said.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
When Baroness Diana “Dido” Harding was handed the job of leading NHS test and trace, the dizzying brief that ministers set her was to beat the world. But it was not, she says, to save Britain. It may have seemed that her £12bn programme had the star role in keeping Covid-19 at bay and protecting the nation from a return to lockdown. Not so, she says.
“Everyone wants to believe that test and trace is a silver bullet,” she said last week in a rare interview. “It has never been and it never will be. The virus unfortunately doesn’t behave in such a way that there is a silver bullet. The only way that we’re going to learn how to live with Covid is through a number of different interventions, of which test and trace is undoubtedly a very important one.”
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I am surprised that a personal freedoms warrior like David Davis hasn't jumped on this. It would seem to make mandatory identity cards look like a drop in the ocean.
A vanity by election in Haltemprice and Howden anyone?
Mr. Pete, driving licences and forms of ID can be very useful. Mandatory systems with accompanying databases full of personal information are rather less appealing.
There have been several occasions recently when I have completed governmental documentation (registering an imported car for example) and to confirm my identity electronically I have been asked for my driving licence number.
ID cards and the associated databases that concern you so much are already here. If you object, don't hold a passport and take the bus (but not if you have a Senior's bus pass).
Meanwhile I note another swing to Trump on Betfair. As yesterday, there seems to be no reason for this. Is it perhaps a time thing where overseas punters are more influential at certain times? Anyway there is 1.61 on Biden available on Biden right now if you are not already maxed out.
Is this not reversion to the mean now that it is clear Trump won't die of Covid-19?
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
I don't think he is absolutely right? It appears to be the traced contacts of people who test positive.
Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
Don't you think there might have been a lot of anti-Trump voters last time who sat on their hands, and might actually vote this time?
If they were really anti Trump they would not have sat on their hands but voted against him in 2016 for Hillary
Oh, FFS. Trump in power was an unknown quantity in 2016. Now he is a known quantity.
Plus not many took Trump seriously or thought he could actually won in 2016. Now they're not making the same mistake again.
We lived this experience ourselves in 2017/19 with Corbyn.
HYUFD's inability to see the parallels between Corbyn and Trump (parallels even Corbyn's own team made in 2016) blinds him to a very powerful lesson.
This is misleading imo. The difference between Corbyn in 2017 and 2019 was not about the electorate's view of Corbyn's electability (in either sense) but of, first, CCHQ analysing and countering what made Corbyn popular or unpopular, and you can see that by the number of direct lifts Boris made, and second by Labour reverting to its failed 2015 ("vote Labour and win a microwave") strategy of having too many commitments with no underlying theme linking them together.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
I don't think he is absolutely right? It appears to be the traced contacts of people who test positive.
Agreed, if instructed to self isolate. I could have put that better. But it has nothing to do with the information from the app.
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
Perhaps. But if the 20% isolating estimate is even close to true, then we obviously need to try something else. Obviously, obviously we need to compensate people. But some element of coercion may be necessary too.
I interviewed a candidate in Canada for a position and she had to pause the interview to answer a phone call from the police to say she was isolating. Apparently if you miss a second call, they send someone round your house.
How the phone call proves your isolating I'm not quite sure... but I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to follow up... presumably those breaking quarantine are breaking the law?
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
I don't think he is absolutely right? It appears to be the traced contacts of people who test positive.
Agreed, if instructed to self isolate. I could have put that better. But it has nothing to do with the information from the app.
Nevertheless ignoring the App is a criminal offence, just as breaching any of the dozens of other new restrictions where the chances of getting caught are minimal is an offence.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
It's also going to be impossible to police property, there's about 300,000 people all over the country that are supposed to be in isolation. There simply aren't enough police to make the risk of getting caught high enough to stay in.
I tested out my isolation idea yesterday at dinner with some friends, the most popular one was £1000 per week and a gps tracking tag and changing the law so that anyone who tests positive can't be sacked or have their hours reduced when they come back to work. They all said for £1000 per week they'd be willing to live with a gps wrist strap.
Someone, I forget who, sorry, suggested Biden at 41 on Betfair for over 60% vote share. That's now layable at 25, although the way things are going you might prefer to just let it stand.
Flattered someone remembered my tip. I'm letting it ride.
Great bragging rights if that comes off!
Though my Spreadbet would look very tasty too at that voteshare.
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Republicans banging on about Hunter Biden when the whole Trump clan has been at it for the past 4 years is the rankest projectionism. "SAD!"
Trump and his gang are the most corrupt administration in my life time, gouging off the public purse at every opportunity, but that doesn't make the Hunter Biden story ok. Its yet another example of how poor the choice Americans have this time.
Only just beat Johnson and his gang as well, UK is fast approaching banana republic status.
Morning Malc! Banana monarchy, surely.
Morning OKC, wishful thinking on my part , but given the grifters are unlikely to leave whilst they can still keep milking the country you are indeed more accurate. However you got the gist of what I meant. The firm are are a huge part of the gougers.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
When Baroness Diana “Dido” Harding was handed the job of leading NHS test and trace, the dizzying brief that ministers set her was to beat the world. But it was not, she says, to save Britain. It may have seemed that her £12bn programme had the star role in keeping Covid-19 at bay and protecting the nation from a return to lockdown. Not so, she says.
“Everyone wants to believe that test and trace is a silver bullet,” she said last week in a rare interview. “It has never been and it never will be. The virus unfortunately doesn’t behave in such a way that there is a silver bullet. The only way that we’re going to learn how to live with Covid is through a number of different interventions, of which test and trace is undoubtedly a very important one.”
Surely that is no more than common sense? It doesn't mean, of course, that T&T should not be more effective part of our armoury than it is right now.
As a matter of interest a "self cleaning" T&T facility has now been set up by Mitie in Dundee. It is "generally" expected to give you a result within 12 hours using the QR code that you book it under. It's the first in Scotland but others are to be rolled out. It will employ 40 people so it will not be cheap but it does look a step in the right direction.
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
I thought you said you weren’t qualified to give advice on suicidal thoughts?
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
Perhaps. But if the 20% isolating estimate is even close to true, then we obviously need to try something else. Obviously, obviously we need to compensate people. But some element of coercion may be necessary too.
I interviewed a candidate in Canada for a position and she had to pause the interview to answer a phone call from the police to say she was isolating. Apparently if you miss a second call, they send someone round your house.
How the phone call proves your isolating I'm not quite sure... but I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to follow up... presumably those breaking quarantine are breaking the law?
It does if it's to a landline.
The main reasons for not properly isolating were not being able to order food online, fear of getting sacked, not able to afford two weeks off unpaid and socialising. The first three reasons are absolutely fair and could be easily solved with more money to isolate, laws to prevent loss of job/hours for people who get a positive test and priority delivery slots or volunteers doing the shopping, the last reason is solved with GPS tracking.
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
I don't think he is absolutely right? It appears to be the traced contacts of people who test positive.
Agreed, if instructed to self isolate. I could have put that better. But it has nothing to do with the information from the app.
Nevertheless ignoring the App is a criminal offence, just as breaching any of the dozens of other new restrictions where the chances of getting caught are minimal is an offence.
So don't download the app. Its a bug-ridden load of crap anyway.
Conversely I have no problems whatsoever with a national ID card and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
That made me laugh.
Rawnsley: Rishi Sunak and Michael Gove are among the cabinet ministers increasingly terrified by the consequences of failing to reach a deal with the EU
I’m told that Mr Gove recently made a formal submission to the Treasury detailing how much additional money would be required to try to mitigate the immediate impact of a crash-out Brexit.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
Perhaps. But if the 20% isolating estimate is even close to true, then we obviously need to try something else. Obviously, obviously we need to compensate people. But some element of coercion may be necessary too.
I interviewed a candidate in Canada for a position and she had to pause the interview to answer a phone call from the police to say she was isolating. Apparently if you miss a second call, they send someone round your house.
How the phone call proves your isolating I'm not quite sure... but I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to follow up... presumably those breaking quarantine are breaking the law?
It does if it's to a landline.
The main reasons for not properly isolating were not being able to order food online, fear of getting sacked, not able to afford two weeks off unpaid and socialising. The first three reasons are absolutely fair and could be easily solved with more money to isolate, laws to prevent loss of job/hours for people who get a positive test and priority delivery slots or volunteers doing the shopping, the last reason is solved with GPS tracking.
A landline? What is this the 20th century?
I don't have a landline. A great proportion of people don't.
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Does he WANT to lose in Michigan? She’s their elected governor.
We all know that Trump is stark raving mad. He is though just a representation of the stark raving madness of millions of Americans raised to be paranoid about their own government. One interesting thing I learned about the NZ election is that they have a separate Maori caucus - America wouldn't do the same for its own indigenous populace, but perhaps it could do so for the shitkickers who need 80 firearms to defend their homes against the government men who any day now are coming to take away their freedoms.
That way genuine sane conservatives can have their party back and advocate policies that don't have to pander to those suffering from foaming-dog fever.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
Perhaps. But if the 20% isolating estimate is even close to true, then we obviously need to try something else. Obviously, obviously we need to compensate people. But some element of coercion may be necessary too.
I interviewed a candidate in Canada for a position and she had to pause the interview to answer a phone call from the police to say she was isolating. Apparently if you miss a second call, they send someone round your house.
How the phone call proves your isolating I'm not quite sure... but I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to follow up... presumably those breaking quarantine are breaking the law?
It does if it's to a landline.
The main reasons for not properly isolating were not being able to order food online, fear of getting sacked, not able to afford two weeks off unpaid and socialising. The first three reasons are absolutely fair and could be easily solved with more money to isolate, laws to prevent loss of job/hours for people who get a positive test and priority delivery slots or volunteers doing the shopping, the last reason is solved with GPS tracking.
A landline? What is this the 20th century?
I don't have a landline. A great proportion of people don't.
Almost everyone has a landline, they just won't have a phone connected to it. I don't.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
And some political views correlate with age. Most people seem to believe
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
What's more, given the ages of Brexit voters, by 8 years after the referendum it's quite likely there'll be aggrieved young people who realise they haven't got the opportunities those a bit older had.
Surely there will be people 8 years older who, because they have grown older, now believe in Brexit
Usually belief in the tooth fairy, Father Christmas and Brexit fade with experience.
Some political views correlate with age. It seems to be a given that as the older people die off the prevalence of that view will decline. But actually as people get older maybe their view changes. After all, we still have a Conservative party.
Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
I knew you’d say that - which is why I had this post predrafted.
You are obsessed with 2016. 2016 is over, gone, in the past. They are all in that picture Michigan voters who have made their minds up already. They are baked in. He needs to swing some from the Dem and undecided camp over. Even your beloved Trafalgar Group only has him 1 point up In Michigan - they overstated him by nearly 2 points in 2016. The rest have him deep underwater. You continually say you expect 2016 polling results to repeat. So on your own logic, unless Trafalgar have changed their model their model to improve accuracy (they haven’t changed it) he is, on your assumption that 2016 results repeat, probably losing even with Trafalgar.
He has terrible marks even from Republicans on his Covid-19 response. Pictures like this on the TV will just reenforce those terrible optics. That, together with shots of him encouraging the crowd to shout “lock her up” about their own elected governor, whose only crime appears to have been to put in place stringent but popular lockdown measures, a rally will not do what it did last time. Whitmer is quite popular (51% favourable to 41% unfavourable in the last poll I saw) Clinton wasn’t at all popular. So encouraging those chats against, a popular governor in her own state, will have a negative effect In Michigan. It’s a different world, different priorities and a different candidate. Trump isn’t a fresh unknown anymore. Unlike 2016 there is a rampant deadly pandemic that has been worsened by these very rallies.
Finally, I have permission to share this from my wife. My wife’s godparents are registered Republicans. The husband is a massive, enormous, Trump fan. The wife loathes Trump with a passion. She confided this to my mother-in-law (her best friend) on condition the husband must never find out. My mother-in-law told my wife though. So there are, anecdotally at least, “Shy Bidenites” as well.
Did the wife vote for Trump in 2016 though? If not and she secretly voted for Hillary then no change if she votes for Biden
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
I don't think he is absolutely right? It appears to be the traced contacts of people who test positive.
Agreed, if instructed to self isolate. I could have put that better. But it has nothing to do with the information from the app.
Nevertheless ignoring the App is a criminal offence, just as breaching any of the dozens of other new restrictions where the chances of getting caught are minimal is an offence.
Sure. You can make a case for criminal sanctions (and I don’t disagree with that), but if they are both widely unenforceable, and create resentment and decrease cooperation (as they clearly seem to do in this case), then it’s a self defeating exercise. Active encouragement and support ought to come first. S Korea had a policy of supported isolation alongside legal sanctions from very early on, and it largely worked. We’ve had half a year to work this out, and we’re messing it up.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
Given both Essex where I live and London and Elmbridge are now in Tier 2 the South has not got off from being raised to a higher tier either
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
I don't think he is absolutely right? It appears to be the traced contacts of people who test positive.
Agreed, if instructed to self isolate. I could have put that better. But it has nothing to do with the information from the app.
Nevertheless ignoring the App is a criminal offence, just as breaching any of the dozens of other new restrictions where the chances of getting caught are minimal is an offence.
So don't download the app. Its a bug-ridden load of crap anyway.
Conversely I have no problems whatsoever with a national ID card and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
As someone who has to deal with verifying ID at work I am coming round to that view. It is the poorest and most disadvantaged in society who have trouble proving their identity, and more and more occasions in life where you have to do so. An ID card would be a social leveller.
Disgraceful. That’s going to play badly amongst swing voters. He’s toast.
Is it though? And those are all Michigan voters there, the energy is still there for the Trump campaign in Michigan it seems and given he won the state last time he just needs to get his 2016 vote out for him again
I knew you’d say that - which is why I had this post predrafted.
You are obsessed with 2016. 2016 is over, gone, in the past. They are all in that picture Michigan voters who have made their minds up already. They are baked in. He needs to swing some from the Dem and undecided camp over. Even your beloved Trafalgar Group only has him 1 point up In Michigan - they overstated him by nearly 2 points in 2016. The rest have him deep underwater. You continually say you expect 2016 polling results to repeat. So on your own logic, unless Trafalgar have changed their model their model to improve accuracy (they haven’t changed it) he is, on your assumption that 2016 results repeat, probably losing even with Trafalgar.
He has terrible marks even from Republicans on his Covid-19 response. Pictures like this on the TV will just reenforce those terrible optics. That, together with shots of him encouraging the crowd to shout “lock her up” about their own elected governor, whose only crime appears to have been to put in place stringent but popular lockdown measures, a rally will not do what it did last time. Whitmer is quite popular (51% favourable to 41% unfavourable in the last poll I saw) Clinton wasn’t at all popular. So encouraging those chats against, a popular governor in her own state, will have a negative effect In Michigan. It’s a different world, different priorities and a different candidate. Trump isn’t a fresh unknown anymore. Unlike 2016 there is a rampant deadly pandemic that has been worsened by these very rallies.
Finally, I have permission to share this from my wife. My wife’s godparents are registered Republicans. The husband is a massive, enormous, Trump fan. The wife loathes Trump with a passion. She confided this to my mother-in-law (her best friend) on condition the husband must never find out. My mother-in-law told my wife though. So there are, anecdotally at least, “Shy Bidenites” as well.
Did the wife vote for Trump in 2016 though? If not and she secretly voted for Hillary then no change if she votes for Biden
Again, you’re obsessed with 2016. Past results etc. Yes, I think she did vote for Trump In 2016, but I don’t know that. She’s a registered Republican and the soul bearing conversation with my mother in law was not until Summer 2019ish (from memory). But ultimately that is between her and the ballot box/booth/whatever.
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
"The discontent successfully exploited by the Conservatives during last year’s general election in areas like this didn’t vanish when the polls closed and it was certainly apparent this week.
“It’s been slowly brewing for decades,” says one official of the resentment that has erupted in the past few days, a sentiment by no means unique to Greater Manchester.
“Covid has really been the last straw.” "
There are plenty of southerners on here who do not realise that we are heading towards a very divided country.
Greater Manc population is almost the same as Wales with a much larger economy.
We are not far from an anti-south party doing very very very well around here,
Perhaps people do not see that because the same two parties as always continue to dominate as they have for 100 years. Sure, that doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but electorally where's the sign people are yearning for an anti-south party, or for one of the big ones to be more explicitly anti-south?
Brexit.
Definitely driven in part by resentment and anger from being left behind.
"Red Wall" also. A rejection of a deeply Londoncentric Labour which failed to heed the north. From which the Tories, (not their new found Northern Mps), but the Johnson/Cummings clique, appear to be drawing all the wrong lessons.
It is no different to the divide across many of the big Western nations now eg the ex industrial areas which voted for Trump or Le Pen v the wealthier knowledge economy areas which voted for Clinton or Macron, same as the divide between Brexit and Remain areas in the UK.
If the Tories really ignored the North they would also have conceded to the EU on state aid and prevented the UK government giving state aid to industry in the North, that is not something I would be too bothered about for a trade deal with the EU but it is something Northern Leave voters would be bothered about
This isn’t about state aid it’s about regional lockdowns. People don’t care about Brexit to the exclusion of all else. If Greater Manchester is seen to be treated less favourably than the south no amount of gratitude for Brexit is going to save them. Or do you imagine grateful Northern types in 2024 who’ve lost their jobs, (world famous) clubs and pubs saying “I’m jobless and have nothing to do for leisure but I’m voting Tory in gratitude for a clean break from the EU!”.
Given both Essex where I live and London and Elmbridge are now in Tier 2 the South has not got off from being raised to a higher tier either
You might want to proof read that. But the key diff is perception. There is a North South divide and there appears a growing perception amongst Red Wall Tory MPs that Number 10 is on the wrong side of it.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
Perhaps. But if the 20% isolating estimate is even close to true, then we obviously need to try something else. Obviously, obviously we need to compensate people. But some element of coercion may be necessary too.
I interviewed a candidate in Canada for a position and she had to pause the interview to answer a phone call from the police to say she was isolating. Apparently if you miss a second call, they send someone round your house.
How the phone call proves your isolating I'm not quite sure... but I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to follow up... presumably those breaking quarantine are breaking the law?
It does if it's to a landline.
The main reasons for not properly isolating were not being able to order food online, fear of getting sacked, not able to afford two weeks off unpaid and socialising. The first three reasons are absolutely fair and could be easily solved with more money to isolate, laws to prevent loss of job/hours for people who get a positive test and priority delivery slots or volunteers doing the shopping, the last reason is solved with GPS tracking.
A landline? What is this the 20th century?
I don't have a landline. A great proportion of people don't.
We have two landlines! Showed all our house viewers where the phone points are, nobody cares and rightly so. We haven't had a landline in about 4 years now, hadn't used it much before that, and the second line was the council insisting that councillors dial in on a secure dedicated line for some reason.
Unfortunately we do but it's a party that has had to change its positions dramatically on marriage equality, climate change, fox torturing and many other issues to survive as its voters die off. European integration is another issues on which it will have to change.
Help. I need the PB brains trust, especially the legal types.
Can someone enlighten me on the Tier 2 regulations? A mate has agreed to give a family member (of mine) a lift to a GP for an appointment. The mate is now wondering whether that breaks the rules (they live in another household) and is worried that they may technically be breaking the law.
I'm pretty sure that there is a general exemption for helping people in medical situations. But I need to be a bit firmer.
The alternative is a taxi, which seems actually more risky to me, as god knows who has been in the cab that morning.
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
It's also going to be impossible to police property, there's about 300,000 people all over the country that are supposed to be in isolation. There simply aren't enough police to make the risk of getting caught high enough to stay in.
I tested out my isolation idea yesterday at dinner with some friends, the most popular one was £1000 per week and a gps tracking tag and changing the law so that anyone who tests positive can't be sacked or have their hours reduced when they come back to work. They all said for £1000 per week they'd be willing to live with a gps wrist strap.
For £1000 per week some people will look to get infected.
I already suspect that for some the prospect of two weeks off work at full pay is a disincentive to take precautions.
Mike, You keep saying these things whilst latest polls on North Carolina and Michigan show tie and Trump 1% ahead respectively. Without Michigan it is very difficult for Biden to win. Big worry is if Biden wins by 10% overall and loses the Electoral College, then what!
I see the government has announced that the NHS track and trace app data will be shared with the police.
Thereby guaranteeing nobody will use it.
Are these people actually corrupt or just fucking stupid?
I don't think it's app data, it's the actual people who test positive.
You’re absolutely right, Max. The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good. What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make). And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
It's also going to be impossible to police property, there's about 300,000 people all over the country that are supposed to be in isolation. There simply aren't enough police to make the risk of getting caught high enough to stay in.
I tested out my isolation idea yesterday at dinner with some friends, the most popular one was £1000 per week and a gps tracking tag and changing the law so that anyone who tests positive can't be sacked or have their hours reduced when they come back to work. They all said for £1000 per week they'd be willing to live with a gps wrist strap.
For £1000 per week some people will look to get infected.
I already suspect that for some the prospect of two weeks off work at full pay is a disincentive to take precautions.
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
I thought you said you weren’t qualified to give advice on suicidal thoughts?
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Go do one you boring ****, you promised once before you would stop stalking me and boring me to death , try to stick to your promises and go bore someone else. PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Go do one you boring ****, you promised once before you would stop stalking me and boring me to death , try to stick to your promises and go bore someone else. PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal
Takes a very small man to not admit he’s wrong @malcolmg .
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Go do one you boring ****, you promised once before you would stop stalking me and boring me to death , try to stick to your promises and go bore someone else. PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal
Takes a very small man to not admit he’s wrong @malcolmg .
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Go do one you boring ****, you promised once before you would stop stalking me and boring me to death , try to stick to your promises and go bore someone else. PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal
Takes a very small man to not admit he’s wrong @malcolmg .
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Go do one you boring ****, you promised once before you would stop stalking me and boring me to death , try to stick to your promises and go bore someone else. PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal
Can't you two conduct your bad-mannered arguments in private instead of forcing all of us to read them?
More than stupid. It's creepy. And counter productive as it will undermine confidence.
Assume they are talking about England only as usual and conflating it with England = UK.
Given the article is behind a paywall I can’t see where are they doing such a thing? Can you explain, with quotes from the article itself?
Given I would rather shoot myself than give those unionist arselickers a penny I cannot say , but given past history can be 99.9% certain of it. I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
So you have never read the HSJ (formerly the Health Service Journal whose editorial remit is to cover health issues in England only) but you are confident in saying that given its past history you are 99% certain they are unionists and have said something you think they might have said. Is the HSJ notorious for being unionist? Why is the Health Service Journal unionist? Are you confusing it with the Herald? Have you considered seeing a doctor?
Jog on loser I was talking about the Times. Where did the HSJ come from. Go pester someone else with your crap.
@malcolmg The Times is nowhere mentioned in this thread. The link you commented on is from the HSJ’s editor to an article in his paper. Please don’t insult me as the link we were commenting on is not from the Times. I suspect you knew that are covering your backside. I’ll thank you to read what you post upon before venting your considerable spleen upon me.
Go do one you boring ****, you promised once before you would stop stalking me and boring me to death , try to stick to your promises and go bore someone else. PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal
Can't you two conduct your bad-mannered arguments in private instead of forcing all of us to read them?
If anyone ever thought Scottish Nationalists were actually quite pleasant folk they just need to read the posts of malcolmg to be reminded that the word "nationalist" is synonymous with anger and obnoxiousness.
Does he WANT to lose in Michigan? She’s their elected governor.
We all know that Trump is stark raving mad. He is though just a representation of the stark raving madness of millions of Americans raised to be paranoid about their own government. One interesting thing I learned about the NZ election is that they have a separate Maori caucus - America wouldn't do the same for its own indigenous populace, but perhaps it could do so for the shitkickers who need 80 firearms to defend their homes against the government men who any day now are coming to take away their freedoms.
That way genuine sane conservatives can have their party back and advocate policies that don't have to pander to those suffering from foaming-dog fever.
Can us sane conservatives have our party back in the UK too please?
Comments
I scan a QR code at a venue using my anonymous C-19 app.
How can that possibly be stored anywhere else than on my phone?
... Like the rest of the app, QR codes don’t send any information to a central server and they don’t store people’s personal information. They exist as a way for people to remember where they have been, in case they need to tell contact tracers their activities. The QR code function can be turned on and off in the app and it’s possible to delete the records they create.
QR code check-ins are stored on a phone for 21 days – this allows for 14 days for the virus to appear and seven days when people are most likely to be infectious....
We lived this experience ourselves in 2017/19 with Corbyn.
HYUFD's inability to see the parallels between Corbyn and Trump (parallels even Corbyn's own team made in 2016) blinds him to a very powerful lesson.
A vanity by election in Haltemprice and Howden anyone?
I put a tiny sum on it (as ever, my Betfair account is not overflowing with funds). Right now I'm also leaving it as is.
What you are saying is that they can't check this remotely - and therefore the chances of getting caught are low. It remains an offence, nevertheless, even if you test negative. And, as with other offences where the chance of detection is low (which includes effectively everything in the pages of Coronavirus Regulations just agreed), it isn't zero. In various circumstances I imagine the police could inspect your phone.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54586897
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/17/police-given-access-test-and-trace-data-enforce-self-isolation/
https://le.ac.uk/coronavirus/data-statistics?dm_i=I8Y,72T63,1G5ZIW,SL9NV,1
To be honest the law is a bit of a mess here but the Supreme Court confirmed that Lister still applied in the appropriate circumstances so they would presumably have come to the same view as Barratt. I am baffled as to why you think her decision was "repulsive".
Forces will have access to information telling them if an individual has been told to self-isolate, the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) said.
It doesnt mention the App specifically.
The policy is nonetheless idiotic on several grounds. Encouragement rather than coercion is always to be preferred - particularly when you’re relying on otherwise law abiding people to follow onerous instructions for the public good.
What makes it worse is the inadequate support offered to those self isolating (support which is surely among the most cost-effective investment government could make).
And what renders it completely beyond belief is that it’s blatantly obvious it will create non cooperation from the public. Evidence of that is clear from this morning’s discussion of the app, which has nothing to do with the story anyway.
A policy and communications disaster.
“Everyone wants to believe that test and trace is a silver bullet,” she said last week in a rare interview. “It has never been and it never will be. The virus unfortunately doesn’t behave in such a way that there is a silver bullet. The only way that we’re going to learn how to live with Covid is through a number of different interventions, of which test and trace is undoubtedly a very important one.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/test-and-waste-dido-harding-boss-of-12bn-tracing-scheme-says-it-was-never-a-silver-bullet-s5n66rnjc
ID cards and the associated databases that concern you so much are already here. If you object, don't hold a passport and take the bus (but not if you have a Senior's bus pass).
But it has nothing to do with the information from the app.
I bet they do not say it is not the same in Scotland, same as the TV stations who do not understand that England does not equal UK.
I interviewed a candidate in Canada for a position and she had to pause the interview to answer a phone call from the police to say she was isolating. Apparently if you miss a second call, they send someone round your house.
How the phone call proves your isolating I'm not quite sure... but I don't think it's unreasonable for the police to follow up... presumably those breaking quarantine are breaking the law?
https://twitter.com/allpartycycling/status/1317732706084671488?s=21
I tested out my isolation idea yesterday at dinner with some friends, the most popular one was £1000 per week and a gps tracking tag and changing the law so that anyone who tests positive can't be sacked or have their hours reduced when they come back to work. They all said for £1000 per week they'd be willing to live with a gps wrist strap.
Though my Spreadbet would look very tasty too at that voteshare.
As a matter of interest a "self cleaning" T&T facility has now been set up by Mitie in Dundee. It is "generally" expected to give you a result within 12 hours using the QR code that you book it under. It's the first in Scotland but others are to be rolled out. It will employ 40 people so it will not be cheap but it does look a step in the right direction.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wisconsin-was-never-a-safe-blue-state/
The main reasons for not properly isolating were not being able to order food online, fear of getting sacked, not able to afford two weeks off unpaid and socialising. The first three reasons are absolutely fair and could be easily solved with more money to isolate, laws to prevent loss of job/hours for people who get a positive test and priority delivery slots or volunteers doing the shopping, the last reason is solved with GPS tracking.
been ordered to self isolate and had its details shared with police
Conversely I have no problems whatsoever with a national ID card and can't understand what all the fuss is about.
Rawnsley: Rishi Sunak and Michael Gove are among the cabinet ministers increasingly terrified by the consequences of failing to reach a deal with the EU
I’m told that Mr Gove recently made a formal submission to the Treasury detailing how much additional money would be required to try to mitigate the immediate impact of a crash-out Brexit.
I don't have a landline. A great proportion of people don't.
That way genuine sane conservatives can have their party back and advocate policies that don't have to pander to those suffering from foaming-dog fever.
You can make a case for criminal sanctions (and I don’t disagree with that), but if they are both widely unenforceable, and create resentment and decrease cooperation (as they clearly seem to do in this case), then it’s a self defeating exercise.
Active encouragement and support ought to come first. S Korea had a policy of supported isolation alongside legal sanctions from very early on, and it largely worked.
We’ve had half a year to work this out, and we’re messing it up.
Can someone enlighten me on the Tier 2 regulations? A mate has agreed to give a family member (of mine) a lift to a GP for an appointment. The mate is now wondering whether that breaks the rules (they live in another household) and is worried that they may technically be breaking the law.
I'm pretty sure that there is a general exemption for helping people in medical situations. But I need to be a bit firmer.
The alternative is a taxi, which seems actually more risky to me, as god knows who has been in the cab that morning.
I already suspect that for some the prospect of two weeks off work at full pay is a disincentive to take precautions.
PS: One I looked at was in the Times, I presume a smug ******** like yourself has never written a wrong word.@dougseal