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Ipsos MORI Politics + Society podcast. Scotland: Yes is winning so what happens now? – politicalbett

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Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2020
    I reckon Sam Cam definitely has voted Lib Dem before, during and since Dave was in power....wouldn't be surprised if Dave was these days too to be honest.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54373904
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Not exactly shocking news...she is a registered democrat....

    Briefly addressing her political differences with her dad, Caroline told Politico in 2016: "I love Hillary, I think she's by far the most qualified candidate that we've had in a long while. My dad knows. I was for Barack in 2012. He knows and is fully comfortable with it and thinks I have a right to my opinion."
    It’s a slightly different thing to vote against the administration containing your own father
    Why? We're not medieval noble families, we have no obligation to even passively support the politics of our family if we disagree with them. If I were in that situation and a relative expected me to change my tune because they were in office I'd tell them, politely, to bugger off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited October 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    So you need to buy more for your kitchen even then for the weekday lunches from your local shops or delivered from a local warehouse
    From Riverford, Abel & Cole and Waitrose in my case.

    We used to buy plenty from the local Coop pre-COVID. Now nothing.
    So delivered from the local Riverford, Abel and Cole and Waitrose, no shops in the inner city then
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    I used to. Almost daily. Before the bug. Now it's f/f/k daily (from the community store aka hamster food shop, given its emphasis on the tofu and organic side, so it's been better for me actually).
    I'm not convinced of the efficacy of Tofu. Organic I'm with you on.
    Actually makes a good stir fry for supper - just two pans (one for the noodles) as the tofu can be flung into the veg near the end. I can't imagine uysing it in a sandwich ...
    Tofu needs chilli pepper and maybe soy sauce. It's also improves with some minced meat, but not if you are vegetarian I guess. Stir-fry or braise.
    I'm not sure why one would go about trying to improve it - the improvement is not to eat it. I don't class it as a foodstuff. The soy industry sells it as one based on the harmlessness of traditionally high soy diets in the Far East, but crucially that is fermented soy. If you're veggy, eat lots of eggs. That's nature's superfood, not some hideous blob of intensively-farmed cement. The Phyto-estrogens will give you man boobs into the bargain.
    Tofu is bland but absorbs flavours, which is why you want a heavy sauce to go with it. Like polenta or pasta I suppose, but without the starch or the heaviness. It's very nice if you cook it properly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    One piece of good news; at least the speaker isn’t without shame:

    The Speaker has announced that the sale of alcohol is to be banned in all House of Commons bars and restaurants despite London’s coronavirus restrictions still allowing licensed premises to operate freely.

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle said the prohibition would come into effect on Saturday and would apply if “food is served or not”.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Thanksgiving will be fun at their house this year.
    Better than next year when she's visiting him behind a plate glass window.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    And yet knowing this Sadiq is pushing for London to go into this stupid tier 2. He's a huge c*** and I want to meet him one day and tell home he's a massive c*** to his stupid c*** face.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Scott_xP said:
    Not exactly shocking news...she is a registered democrat and has a long history of backing progressive candidates for office....would be bigger news is she wasn't voting for Biden.

    Briefly addressing her political differences with her dad, Caroline told Politico in 2016: "I love Hillary, I think she's by far the most qualified candidate that we've had in a long while. My dad knows. I was for Barack in 2012. He knows and is fully comfortable with it and thinks I have a right to my opinion."
    Her dad is worth $45 million, so she has to tread carefully to phrase it in such a way she does not annoy him too much to stay in the will, hence she said vote for Biden, she did not trash Trump in the same sentence
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    CatMan said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Depends who replaces him. Rishi Sunak would probably be better. Jacob Rees-Mogg I suspect might not be.
    Hahaha - I don't advocate the coronation of the Moggster, but it would *almost* be worth it for the reactions. :lol: I wonder if he would recline whilst listening to Starmer's questions during PMQs.
    Give we appear to be trending posher and posher in our PMs if JRM is on the table, who on earth would follow him, the Monopoly Man?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Big question whether the move to Yes is structural, which the podcast didn't fully answer. My guess is that the Union isn't quite a lost cause yet but the circumstances that might rescue it are unlikely to transpire quickly enough. Even if Johnson goes I don't see the Conservatives shaking off their English nationalism and become a multi-cultural, open party of all nations but they are going to be in power for another four years as far as we know. Plenty of time for the consensus to independence to be embedded.
    Nothing is structural though is it? Everything is a feeling. You have ebbing and flowing and momentum, but it's still all based on sentiment - on emotion. And those are transient by their nature.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
  • I reckon Sam Cam definitely has voted Lib Dem before, during and since Dave was in power....wouldn't be surprised if Dave was these days too to be honest.

    She always voted Tory since Dave was selected as the Tory candidate in Stafford in 1996. Don't know how she voted in 2017 and 2019.

    She loves Dave and would never do anything that might embarrass him whilst he was running as a Tory candidate/MP/leader/PM.
  • Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    F***ing hell...... That is incredible

    What a bunch of incompetent twats.
    Wow indeed. Can you imagine having as much time on your hands as RussInCheshire so obviously does?
    A few million of us will find out very soon when they get fired due to lack of govt support in tiers 2 and 3!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    I used to. Almost daily. Before the bug. Now it's f/f/k daily (from the community store aka hamster food shop, given its emphasis on the tofu and organic side, so it's been better for me actually).
    I'm not convinced of the efficacy of Tofu. Organic I'm with you on.
    Actually makes a good stir fry for supper - just two pans (one for the noodles) as the tofu can be flung into the veg near the end. I can't imagine uysing it in a sandwich ...
    Tofu needs chilli pepper and maybe soy sauce. It's also improves with some minced meat, but not if you are vegetarian I guess. Stir-fry or braise.
    I'm not sure why one would go about trying to improve it - the improvement is not to eat it. I don't class it as a foodstuff. The soy industry sells it as one based on the harmlessness of traditionally high soy diets in the Far East, but crucially that is fermented soy. If you're veggy, eat lots of eggs. That's nature's superfood, not some hideous blob of intensively-farmed cement. The Phyto-estrogens will give you man boobs into the bargain.
    Tofu is bland but absorbs flavours, which is why you want a heavy sauce to go with it. Like polenta or pasta I suppose, but without the starch or the heaviness. It's very nice if you cook it properly.
    I will take your word for it, but even if I really enjoyed it, health-wise I would put it in the occasional treat category.
  • IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    But won't herd immunity be a bit useless if people start getting reinfected?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    And yet knowing this Sadiq is pushing for London to go into this stupid tier 2. He's a huge c*** and I want to meet him one day and tell home he's a massive c*** to his stupid c*** face.
    For something he doesn't even think will be effective. At least Greater Manchester are calling the Government out on this one by quoting their chief scientists back at them.

    In related news, i've been told that the main hospital local to "Covid hotspot" Richmond (Kingston hospital) currently has... wait for it... 3 Covid patients.

    Worrying numbers indeed.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,451
    edited October 2020
    kle4 said:

    CatMan said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Depends who replaces him. Rishi Sunak would probably be better. Jacob Rees-Mogg I suspect might not be.
    Hahaha - I don't advocate the coronation of the Moggster, but it would *almost* be worth it for the reactions. :lol: I wonder if he would recline whilst listening to Starmer's questions during PMQs.
    Give we appear to be trending posher and posher in our PMs if JRM is on the table, who on earth would follow him, the Monopoly Man?
    Zac Goldsmith?

    Although not sure the meme actually works, wouldnt the poshness order recently be Cameron, Johnson, Blair, May, Thatcher, Brown, Major - so pretty random?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Berlin ad of masked elderly woman giving the finger goes viral...

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/berlin-coronavirus-ad-finger/index.html
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Not exactly shocking news...she is a registered democrat and has a long history of backing progressive candidates for office....would be bigger news is she wasn't voting for Biden.

    Briefly addressing her political differences with her dad, Caroline told Politico in 2016: "I love Hillary, I think she's by far the most qualified candidate that we've had in a long while. My dad knows. I was for Barack in 2012. He knows and is fully comfortable with it and thinks I have a right to my opinion."
    Her dad is worth $45 million, so she has to tread carefully to phrase it in such a way she does not annoy him too much to stay in the will, hence she said vote for Biden, she did not trash Trump in the same sentence
    You mean other than describing him as "cruel", "selfish" and "a nightmare we need to escape from"?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    Something I have long suspected
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    THIS is gonna grab the attention of MPs in a way lesser irritants (rolling lockdowns, hardening borders and impending economic turmoil) have not.

    My guess is that the Speaker is now the most popular politico from Land's End to John o'Groats.
    It'll be amusing to see them venture to a pub outside the Palace of Westminster to discover the prices that ordinary punters have to pay.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    edited October 2020
    kle4 said:

    CatMan said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Depends who replaces him. Rishi Sunak would probably be better. Jacob Rees-Mogg I suspect might not be.
    Hahaha - I don't advocate the coronation of the Moggster, but it would *almost* be worth it for the reactions. :lol: I wonder if he would recline whilst listening to Starmer's questions during PMQs.
    Give we appear to be trending posher and posher in our PMs if JRM is on the table, who on earth would follow him, the Monopoly Man?
    The man in the American Grey Poupon mustard advertisement (apart from the Paul Edison one who sadly passed away some years ago).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwOCOm9Z0YE
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Not exactly shocking news...she is a registered democrat and has a long history of backing progressive candidates for office....would be bigger news is she wasn't voting for Biden.

    Briefly addressing her political differences with her dad, Caroline told Politico in 2016: "I love Hillary, I think she's by far the most qualified candidate that we've had in a long while. My dad knows. I was for Barack in 2012. He knows and is fully comfortable with it and thinks I have a right to my opinion."
    Her dad is worth $45 million, so she has to tread carefully to phrase it in such a way she does not annoy him too much to stay in the will, hence she said vote for Biden, she did not trash Trump in the same sentence
    You mean other than describing him as "cruel", "selfish" and "a nightmare we need to escape from"?
    Well that is her out the will then, mind you she is a Harvard educated film producer so I expect will survive, good news for her brother though who worked as a special assistant for Trump
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    And yet knowing this Sadiq is pushing for London to go into this stupid tier 2. He's a huge c*** and I want to meet him one day and tell home he's a massive c*** to his stupid c*** face.
    For something he doesn't even think will be effective. At least Greater Manchester are calling the Government out on this one by quoting their chief scientists back at them.

    In related news, i've been told that the main hospital local to "Covid hotspot" Richmond (Kingston hospital) currently has... wait for it... 3 Covid patients.

    Worrying numbers indeed.
    It's ridiculous. A good friend of mine works at the royal free and she said they temporarily closed their COVID ward because they haven't had any patients for ages, that was about two weeks ago, but I don't see what has changed since then.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    alex_ said:

    THIS is gonna grab the attention of MPs in a way lesser irritants (rolling lockdowns, hardening borders and impending economic turmoil) have not.

    My guess is that the Speaker is now the most popular politico from Land's End to John o'Groats.
    It'll be amusing to see them venture to a pub outside the Palace of Westminster to discover the prices that ordinary punters have to pay.
    If they can find an open pub...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    Yes, and given that the outbreak was so massive in London it explains why the second wave hasn't taken off here either.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    Something I have long suspected
    A question - we've often referred to how the scientific press are very rarely allowed any where near the press conferences with the CMO and CSO.

    Are there any less profile press conferences meetings between the two groups where serious issues about the virus are actually discussed? One would hope that the presentations of the CMO/CSO in public are actually seriously deliberately dummed down for a wider audience, and there is actually a lot of detailed scientific work going on behind the scenes that they can be questioned about?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    F***ing hell...... That is incredible

    What a bunch of incompetent twats.
    It's too long, as a thread, to have any impact. Bad editing
    You do not need to read it all. After about the first 10 points, you wonder. After the next 10 your flabber will be ghasted. Any further and you realise that the incompetents in charge are more farcical than any stage play ever written.

    This is what appointments based on loyalty rather than ability do to a country.

    Rather interestingly, it puts paid to one old question - why do we pay CEOs of major companies so much? Are they truly worth it?

    Well, we can now see what the converse - putting incompetents in charge - does. The Bluekippers reign of ruin is there for all to see. Previously we had to rely on examples like the CEO of Coop Bank or Fred the Shred.
    You're right there's no need to read it all, its ranty bollocks by someone who writes ranty bollocks like this all the time.

    I mean seriously it starts with this: "1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being “medium”, like at McDonalds" - as if lowest being medium like at McDonalds is a bad thing. Its not, there's no areas with low risk at the minute that is the point, the lowest risk is medium right now because in case muppets like Russ haven't noticed we're in the middle of a global pandemic.

    Oh and McDonalds serve small genius. Its what they put in their Happy Meals or you can order it separately.
    Why would a sensible system contemplate only states of affairs which obtain right now? US Defcons and UK threat levels cover the ground from lowest possible, to nuclear war in progress. It would do us all good to have the sunlit uplands of Tier Happymeal dangled before us.
    Because this system is only for during the pandemic. Once the pandemic is over then it would be uncontroversial to go to Tier Zero (no restrictions).
    That's the mistake that the UK (and definitely Spain, and probably France) made in the summer. To jump too quickly from "there's a crisis" to "back to normal, folks". We are likely to need a worked out "carefully confident" step or two between what the restrictions call medium risk, the app called low risk and actual normality.
    Well indeed we will in the future, but not yet. In the future when its safe to add a Low Risk tier then that can be introduced, but it doesn't apply anywhere yet. If a Low Risk tier was introduced despite it not being safe yet to call anywhere Low Risk you'd start having regular arguments with people saying their area was low risk so should be moved from Medium to Low.
    Nope. Doesn't work like that. Not with real people.

    Think back to May/June this year. The country was like a litter of overexcited puppies with the prospect of how much fun the Great Unlocking would be. With Boris as the shaggiest, most overexcited puppy of them all. And we ripped up too many of the rules too quickly, because case numbers were falling. It took about 10 days after Freedom Day on 4 July for cases to start rising again, which is a part of why we are where we are now.

    If you want to plan a gradual, controlled, safe and sustainable unlocking, write the plans now, while people are worried. Get them on paper, so nobody can argue later.

    And since Low (but not No) Risk would presumably still have quite a few restrictions, you might dampen down the agitation...
  • MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    And yet knowing this Sadiq is pushing for London to go into this stupid tier 2. He's a huge c*** and I want to meet him one day and tell home he's a massive c*** to his stupid c*** face.
    For something he doesn't even think will be effective. At least Greater Manchester are calling the Government out on this one by quoting their chief scientists back at them.

    In related news, i've been told that the main hospital local to "Covid hotspot" Richmond (Kingston hospital) currently has... wait for it... 3 Covid patients.

    Worrying numbers indeed.
    It's ridiculous. A good friend of mine works at the royal free and she said they temporarily closed their COVID ward because they haven't had any patients for ages, that was about two weeks ago, but I don't see what has changed since then.
    The Royal Free at South End Green, near Hampstead?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Not exactly shocking news...she is a registered democrat and has a long history of backing progressive candidates for office....would be bigger news is she wasn't voting for Biden.

    Briefly addressing her political differences with her dad, Caroline told Politico in 2016: "I love Hillary, I think she's by far the most qualified candidate that we've had in a long while. My dad knows. I was for Barack in 2012. He knows and is fully comfortable with it and thinks I have a right to my opinion."
    Her dad is worth $45 million, so she has to tread carefully to phrase it in such a way she does not annoy him too much to stay in the will, hence she said vote for Biden, she did not trash Trump in the same sentence
    Do people actually think like this?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,608
    MaxPB said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    And yet knowing this Sadiq is pushing for London to go into this stupid tier 2. He's a huge c*** and I want to meet him one day and tell home he's a massive c*** to his stupid c*** face.
    Do you want a chicken?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited October 2020

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

  • I reckon Sam Cam definitely has voted Lib Dem before, during and since Dave was in power....wouldn't be surprised if Dave was these days too to be honest.

    She always voted Tory since Dave was selected as the Tory candidate in Stafford in 1996. Don't know how she voted in 2017 and 2019.

    She loves Dave and would never do anything that might embarrass him whilst he was running as a Tory candidate/MP/leader/PM.
    Note that Clementine Churchill was a livelong Liberal, and never made any bones about it.

    Further note that Violet Attlee was a not-so-secret Conservative at heart.

    Also note that Oswald Baldwin, son of Conservative Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin, was elected as Labour MP, and later served in House of Lords and (briefly under Attlee govt) as Gov or Leeward Islands.

  • alex_ said:

    THIS is gonna grab the attention of MPs in a way lesser irritants (rolling lockdowns, hardening borders and impending economic turmoil) have not.

    My guess is that the Speaker is now the most popular politico from Land's End to John o'Groats.
    It'll be amusing to see them venture to a pub outside the Palace of Westminster to discover the prices that ordinary punters have to pay.
    Would MPs meeting in a pub count as a work meeting so therefore ok? Otherwise it would be illegal anyway.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    IanB2 said:

    Berlin ad of masked elderly woman giving the finger goes viral...

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/berlin-coronavirus-ad-finger/index.html

    What stubby little fingers she has.. but I love the advert :+1:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    But won't herd immunity be a bit useless if people start getting reinfected?
    If reinfection does take place (jury is out) it seems likely, from other virus studies, that the impact on a person would be less.

    Gupta discusses this in a response to Hancock's know-nothing drivel about herd immunity and measles the other day.

    https://unherd.com/2020/10/matt-hancock-is-wrong-about-herd-immunity/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited October 2020

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    And yet knowing this Sadiq is pushing for London to go into this stupid tier 2. He's a huge c*** and I want to meet him one day and tell home he's a massive c*** to his stupid c*** face.
    For something he doesn't even think will be effective. At least Greater Manchester are calling the Government out on this one by quoting their chief scientists back at them.

    In related news, i've been told that the main hospital local to "Covid hotspot" Richmond (Kingston hospital) currently has... wait for it... 3 Covid patients.

    Worrying numbers indeed.
    It's ridiculous. A good friend of mine works at the royal free and she said they temporarily closed their COVID ward because they haven't had any patients for ages, that was about two weeks ago, but I don't see what has changed since then.
    The Royal Free at South End Green, near Hampstead?
    The very same. She's also the one who sent me videos of the doctors having push up competitions during lockdown and made me promise I wouldn't send them to the Daily Mail.
  • IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    I don't think so, the numbers in that chart match exactly the official view for ages. They're just not normally charted like that which is a shame as its a much more honest and revealing chart.

    But it is an excellently written leader and I agree with it completely.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited October 2020

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Is anyone else amazed that we've yet to see "Shy Trump Voter" posting on PB?

    Surely such a massive voting bloc MUST be represented on this very distinguished and highly popular forum!

    @MrEd
    He's not shy.
    @HYUFD
    I have said all along I would vote Biden for President and GOP for Congress but as I would have voted Hillary for President in 2016 I would not be a key swing voter at the presidential level and as I am not American even eligible to vote.

    The last Republican I would have voted for for President was George W Bush in 2000, though I would have voted Republican in every Presidential election from 1968 until 2004 since then I would have voted for Kerry, Obama and Hillary and Biden (though I would have voted for Bush over Dean in 2004 and Trump over Sanders if he was the Democratic nominee this year)
    But not being Scottish doesn't disqualify you from interfering in Scottish matters and sending outside money to Scottish political parties, which are legally separate from yours and operate in a polity you do not live in. At le3ast in your view.
    The Scottish Conservative Party is still part of the UK Tory Party and my sovereign country is still the same as yours and I will do what I can to keep it that way and beat separatists like you
    It is not part of it. Look at the Electoral Commission registewrs. Separate accounting and all that. In contrast to the Labour Party's Scottish element.
    It is, Boris Johnson remains head of the UK Conservative Party, hence Scottish Conservative Party members had a vote when he was elected UK Tory leader.

    It is not yet a separate sister party as say the Bavarian CSU is to the German CDU
    Whose Conservative Party will be fighting the Scottish elections next May?
    It used to be Ruth Davison's Conservatives - they were quite popular.
    The party of DRoss surely?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Big question whether the move to Yes is structural, which the podcast didn't fully answer. My guess is that the Union isn't quite a lost cause yet but the circumstances that might rescue it are unlikely to transpire quickly enough. Even if Johnson goes I don't see the Conservatives shaking off their English nationalism and become a multi-cultural, open party of all nations but they are going to be in power for another four years as far as we know. Plenty of time for the consensus to independence to be embedded.
    Nothing is structural though is it? Everything is a feeling. You have ebbing and flowing and momentum, but it's still all based on sentiment - on emotion. And those are transient by their nature.
    I suppose. Scotland could go back to being a Labour fiefdom again. I don't see it. In the meantime, I suspect the independence consensus will firm up.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    Yes there is a huge proportion of the population who still (bless them) believe every word that the Govt say. Simply hearing that areas are moving into higher tiers will be enough for them to conclude that it just isn't safe to do tomorrow what you happily did today.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,451
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    THIS is gonna grab the attention of MPs in a way lesser irritants (rolling lockdowns, hardening borders and impending economic turmoil) have not.

    My guess is that the Speaker is now the most popular politico from Land's End to John o'Groats.
    It'll be amusing to see them venture to a pub outside the Palace of Westminster to discover the prices that ordinary punters have to pay.
    Would MPs meeting in a pub count as a work meeting so therefore ok? Otherwise it would be illegal anyway.
    They can claim they're all from the same House.
    Very good! Given they dont get fined for travelling up and down the country when they test positive it is probably a moot point whether they break the law or not anyway. It does not apply to them.
  • IanB2 said:

    One piece of good news; at least the speaker isn’t without shame:

    The Speaker has announced that the sale of alcohol is to be banned in all House of Commons bars and restaurants despite London’s coronavirus restrictions still allowing licensed premises to operate freely.

    Sir Lindsay Hoyle said the prohibition would come into effect on Saturday and would apply if “food is served or not”.

    On the other hand:

    https://twitter.com/RichardNabavi/status/1316846260612214784
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    F***ing hell...... That is incredible

    What a bunch of incompetent twats.
    Wow indeed. Can you imagine having as much time on your hands as RussInCheshire so obviously does?
    Absolutely. Blame the messenger.
    Rotten to the blue core
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,564
    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    F***ing hell...... That is incredible

    What a bunch of incompetent twats.
    It's too long, as a thread, to have any impact. Bad editing
    It’s a little long.
    This was... almost pithy.
    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711666952871941
  • kle4 said:

    CatMan said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Depends who replaces him. Rishi Sunak would probably be better. Jacob Rees-Mogg I suspect might not be.
    Hahaha - I don't advocate the coronation of the Moggster, but it would *almost* be worth it for the reactions. :lol: I wonder if he would recline whilst listening to Starmer's questions during PMQs.
    Give we appear to be trending posher and posher in our PMs if JRM is on the table, who on earth would follow him, the Monopoly Man?
    Is the Monopoly Man posh?

    Isn't he Trade, at best second generation like JRM or Alan Clark?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    It will be the whole of Barrow Borough Council
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    No, too busy, and honestly eating lunch on your own in a random caff that you have to drive to even get to is a bit pointless. People who sentimentalise about market towns don't realise how the genius planners carefully separate the housing from the high street.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    edited October 2020
    IanB2 said:

    If true, we are much closer to herd immunity than any official view has confirmed.
    I can't read the article but I am not sure what the serology is supposed to be telling us on lockdowns and herd immunity. The Imperial REACT survey [Edit] up to June identified 6% of the population with antibodies. As that was after the big wave of infections in the Spring I don't imagine it has moved massively since then.

    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/201893/largest-study-home-coronavirus-antibody-testing/#:~:text=Led by Imperial College London,using self-testing at home.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    I used to. Almost daily. Before the bug. Now it's f/f/k daily (from the community store aka hamster food shop, given its emphasis on the tofu and organic side, so it's been better for me actually).
    I'm not convinced of the efficacy of Tofu. Organic I'm with you on.
    Actually makes a good stir fry for supper - just two pans (one for the noodles) as the tofu can be flung into the veg near the end. I can't imagine uysing it in a sandwich ...
    Tofu needs chilli pepper and maybe soy sauce. It's also improves with some minced meat, but not if you are vegetarian I guess. Stir-fry or braise.
    I'm not sure why one would go about trying to improve it - the improvement is not to eat it. I don't class it as a foodstuff. The soy industry sells it as one based on the harmlessness of traditionally high soy diets in the Far East, but crucially that is fermented soy. If you're veggy, eat lots of eggs. That's nature's superfood, not some hideous blob of intensively-farmed cement. The Phyto-estrogens will give you man boobs into the bargain.
    Tofu is bland but absorbs flavours, which is why you want a heavy sauce to go with it. Like polenta or pasta I suppose, but without the starch or the heaviness. It's very nice if you cook it properly.
    Tofu is absolutely fantastic. I lived off it when I was a vegan in Taiwan. There are dozens of varieties. Go to a Chinese store and Google how to cook it.
    I do not have man boobs.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    The government is terrible but I'm not sure any other party would be much better.
  • Nigelb said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    F***ing hell...... That is incredible

    What a bunch of incompetent twats.
    It's too long, as a thread, to have any impact. Bad editing
    It’s a little long.
    This was... almost pithy.
    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711666952871941
    He'll be even more furious when he gets to hear about Capita and Rod Aldridge.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    kle4 said:

    CatMan said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Depends who replaces him. Rishi Sunak would probably be better. Jacob Rees-Mogg I suspect might not be.
    Hahaha - I don't advocate the coronation of the Moggster, but it would *almost* be worth it for the reactions. :lol: I wonder if he would recline whilst listening to Starmer's questions during PMQs.
    Give we appear to be trending posher and posher in our PMs if JRM is on the table, who on earth would follow him, the Monopoly Man?
    Prince Andrew?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    F***ing hell...... That is incredible

    What a bunch of incompetent twats.
    It's too long, as a thread, to have any impact. Bad editing
    You do not need to read it all. After about the first 10 points, you wonder. After the next 10 your flabber will be ghasted. Any further and you realise that the incompetents in charge are more farcical than any stage play ever written.

    This is what appointments based on loyalty rather than ability do to a country.

    Rather interestingly, it puts paid to one old question - why do we pay CEOs of major companies so much? Are they truly worth it?

    Well, we can now see what the converse - putting incompetents in charge - does. The Bluekippers reign of ruin is there for all to see. Previously we had to rely on examples like the CEO of Coop Bank or Fred the Shred.
    You're right there's no need to read it all, its ranty bollocks by someone who writes ranty bollocks like this all the time.

    I mean seriously it starts with this: "1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being “medium”, like at McDonalds" - as if lowest being medium like at McDonalds is a bad thing. Its not, there's no areas with low risk at the minute that is the point, the lowest risk is medium right now because in case muppets like Russ haven't noticed we're in the middle of a global pandemic.

    Oh and McDonalds serve small genius. Its what they put in their Happy Meals or you can order it separately.
    Why would a sensible system contemplate only states of affairs which obtain right now? US Defcons and UK threat levels cover the ground from lowest possible, to nuclear war in progress. It would do us all good to have the sunlit uplands of Tier Happymeal dangled before us.
    Because this system is only for during the pandemic. Once the pandemic is over then it would be uncontroversial to go to Tier Zero (no restrictions).
    That's the mistake that the UK (and definitely Spain, and probably France) made in the summer. To jump too quickly from "there's a crisis" to "back to normal, folks". We are likely to need a worked out "carefully confident" step or two between what the restrictions call medium risk, the app called low risk and actual normality.
    Well indeed we will in the future, but not yet. In the future when its safe to add a Low Risk tier then that can be introduced, but it doesn't apply anywhere yet. If a Low Risk tier was introduced despite it not being safe yet to call anywhere Low Risk you'd start having regular arguments with people saying their area was low risk so should be moved from Medium to Low.
    Nope. Doesn't work like that. Not with real people.

    Think back to May/June this year. The country was like a litter of overexcited puppies with the prospect of how much fun the Great Unlocking would be. With Boris as the shaggiest, most overexcited puppy of them all. And we ripped up too many of the rules too quickly, because case numbers were falling. It took about 10 days after Freedom Day on 4 July for cases to start rising again, which is a part of why we are where we are now.

    If you want to plan a gradual, controlled, safe and sustainable unlocking, write the plans now, while people are worried. Get them on paper, so nobody can argue later.

    And since Low (but not No) Risk would presumably still have quite a few restrictions, you might dampen down the agitation...
    Actually the unlocking did happen in stages from the end of May, through June then July and even August. It didn't just go big bang at once. Plus of course lessons have been learnt since then.

    And there's no evidence R was high through July, the ONS survey refutes that and while increased testing did reveal some more results the positivity rate was going down in that period. It took untl the end of August before case numbers really started lifting up again.
  • VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.

    Shouldn't be hard to check....

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/graph-shows-changes-number-coronavirus-4609498
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    That is scarily brilliant!

    Why are Amazon exempt from the digital tax? The waste, incompetence, kleptocracy and corruption I have come to expect but don't understand the Amazon exemption?
    They will only pay tax on the revenue they earn from third party sellers. They have already told third party sellers that they will increase the fees charged to them to take account of this. So this digital tax will screw over small sellers and help Amazon.

    Absolute fucking genius!!
    That's not quite true. Google (for example) have started to charge more for advertising due to the tax, so our agency asked me if we wanted to pay it, or reduce our Google media spend accordingly. We reduced it. So that is them suffering.

    In Amazon's case, the sellers can raise their prices in order to pay Amazon's increased fees - this makes items on Amazon more expensive, meaning they potentially sell less. That is an affect on Amazon.
    Yes, but it disadvantages independent sellers on Amazon vs Amazon selling directly.
  • Actually the problem with the current government is the diametric opposite of it being corrupt and in the pockets of big business. If only it were. Instead it completely ignores what businesses, big and small, want.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,608

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    No, too busy, and honestly eating lunch on your own in a random caff that you have to drive to even get to is a bit pointless. People who sentimentalise about market towns don't realise how the genius planners carefully separate the housing from the high street.
    I have the those planners on The List.

    Some years ago I encountered the a particularly magnificent specimen of this kind of thinking. Apparently the idea of a small corner shop in a housing estate was Literal Fascism. With Capital Letters.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    I used to. Almost daily. Before the bug. Now it's f/f/k daily (from the community store aka hamster food shop, given its emphasis on the tofu and organic side, so it's been better for me actually).
    I'm not convinced of the efficacy of Tofu. Organic I'm with you on.
    Actually makes a good stir fry for supper - just two pans (one for the noodles) as the tofu can be flung into the veg near the end. I can't imagine uysing it in a sandwich ...
    Tofu needs chilli pepper and maybe soy sauce. It's also improves with some minced meat, but not if you are vegetarian I guess. Stir-fry or braise.
    I'm not sure why one would go about trying to improve it - the improvement is not to eat it. I don't class it as a foodstuff. The soy industry sells it as one based on the harmlessness of traditionally high soy diets in the Far East, but crucially that is fermented soy. If you're veggy, eat lots of eggs. That's nature's superfood, not some hideous blob of intensively-farmed cement. The Phyto-estrogens will give you man boobs into the bargain.
    Tofu is bland but absorbs flavours, which is why you want a heavy sauce to go with it. Like polenta or pasta I suppose, but without the starch or the heaviness. It's very nice if you cook it properly.
    Tofu is absolutely fantastic. I lived off it when I was a vegan in Taiwan. There are dozens of varieties. Go to a Chinese store and Google how to cook it.
    I do not have man boobs.
    I was a bit surprised by that and Googled various scientific nutrition sources. On the whole they seem neutral to slightly positive on he health benefits of beancurd.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited October 2020
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Big question whether the move to Yes is structural, which the podcast didn't fully answer. My guess is that the Union isn't quite a lost cause yet but the circumstances that might rescue it are unlikely to transpire quickly enough. Even if Johnson goes I don't see the Conservatives shaking off their English nationalism and become a multi-cultural, open party of all nations but they are going to be in power for another four years as far as we know. Plenty of time for the consensus to independence to be embedded.
    Nothing is structural though is it? Everything is a feeling. You have ebbing and flowing and momentum, but it's still all based on sentiment - on emotion. And those are transient by their nature.
    I suppose. Scotland could go back to being a Labour fiefdom again. I don't see it. In the meantime, I suspect the independence consensus will firm up.
    The Partis Quebecois polled over 38% in every Quebec election from 1976 to 1998 and 49% in 1981 and the Bloc Quebecois also got 49% in Quebec in the 1993 Canadian general election and yet Quebec is still part of Canada
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.

    Could it just be that the university is doing more widespread testing, whereas non university tests are concentrated on those who are genuinely suspected of having the virus? In such circumstances you would expect the university positivity numbers to be lower, not the same.

    The desperate attempts to claim that universities are not providing the seeding for some of these enormous rises in case numbers just doesn't pass the smell test.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Actually the problem with the current government is the diametric opposite of it being corrupt and in the pockets of big business. If only it were. Instead it completely ignores what businesses, big and small, want.

    I have never accused them of being in the pockets of Big Business. I have accused them of being in the business of filling their own pockets.

    Which is rather different ;)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    A bid for most off topic post of the day: I've been reading about this guy https://www.theguardian.com/.../mexico-dogs-hurricane...
    and sent him a donation - perhaps you'd like to as well? His website is here https://www.tierradeanimales.org/ - it's in Spanish but Google Translate will tell you - just needs your name and email address. 250 Mexican $ is £9.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    It will be the whole of Barrow Borough Council
    Which is a tiny area. Does not even include Ulverston if so.
    The local rag only has "thought to be Barrow BC" as of yet.
    https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/18796731.barrow-will-face-tier-2-coronavirus-restrictions---mat-hancock/
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    It will be the whole of Barrow Borough Council
    That is not where we are. But far too close for comfort.

    Actually the problem with the current government is the diametric opposite of it being corrupt and in the pockets of big business. If only it were. Instead it completely ignores what businesses, big and small, want.

    It’s in the pocket of its friends and their consultancies and, in some cases, the companies they set up barely minutes before being awarded lucrative contracts.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    Andy_JS said:

    The government is terrible but I'm not sure any other party would be much better.

    My cat could do a better job than this government.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Actually the problem with the current government is the diametric opposite of it being corrupt and in the pockets of big business. If only it were. Instead it completely ignores what businesses, big and small, want.

    Business(es) in general just want certainty, stability and a level playing field.

    That doesn't mean that individual businesses will turn down money chucked at them. Of course companies like SERCO, Capita etc don't operate in competitive markets and don't require a level playing field. They get given massive Govt contracts, purely because all other companies fail the threshold test of being big enough or having experience of working on big Govt contracts in the past (no matter how bad a job they've done.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,564
    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    Similar comments in email from local pub.
    ... While national and local restrictions have become ingrained in all of our lives, the most recent succession of restrictions has had a significant and cumulative, negative effect on our business.

    The curfew, as just one example, implemented with almost no notice, wiped out 30% of our (new) normal sales for the week. Our earlier reservation slots usually fill at shorter notice, but with the curfew being introduced, it was necessary for our later tables to arrive earlier, leaving fewer opportunities for two sittings.

    And now we have ‘Tiers’. The leaks to the press that last week led to days of reports that most of the hospitality sector in the north would soon be closed, led to cancellations, but also, a lack of new reservations. We lost a day of trading through being unsure whether to place beer orders, etc. Eventually we settled in as part of the vast Tier 2 community but with Tier 3 ever on the periphery…

    Sure, we are easily as much a restaurant as a pub, so could potentially continue to trade, but with the entire loss of our drinking and walk-in trade. That is on top of losing 40% of our capacity. On top of having only single household tables sat. On top of only being able to operate until 10pm. On top of the perhaps almost subconscious ‘spooking’ of potential guests that occurs each time a new announcement is made. On top of the fact we have spent far more of this year under restriction than not...

  • Andy_JS said:

    The government is terrible but I'm not sure any other party would be much better.

    My cat could do a better job than this government.
    While licking its own bottom. That's what I call multitasking!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,564
    By way of light relief, is John Sopel the worst US correspondent the BBC has ever had ?
    Admittedly there’s some fairly stiff competition for that accolade, but he is truly awful.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,608
    alex_ said:

    VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.

    Could it just be that the university is doing more widespread testing, whereas non university tests are concentrated on those who are genuinely suspected of having the virus? In such circumstances you would expect the university positivity numbers to be lower, not the same.

    The desperate attempts to claim that universities are not providing the seeding for some of these enormous rises in case numbers just doesn't pass the smell test.
    Unless, of course, the students arrived infected. And then were tested.

    It wouldn't be the first time that the "common knowledge" turned out to have some small flaws, such as lacking the "knowledge" bit...

    A thought occurs - did the freshers really arrive, all nicely socially isolated and clean, and only then turn into replicas of Caligula's loucher associates? In my day, when we arrived at university, we were thoroughly practised in the art of misbehaviour....
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    LadyG said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    You do seem to be getting more and more worked up with every passing day... I was reading of a pub owner in West Belfast who seems to be giving up "I do not want to do this any more" was his comment.

    BTW - Another article on BBC News claims that the govt is spending over £300m helping businesses deal with the cost of Brexit. That number seems familiar. Maybe I read it on the side of a bus somewhere :/
    She's got a point. I walked down Charlotte Street today. Usually one of the lovelist and liveliest of centrak London streets. It was utterly desolate. 90% shuttered. All those gorgeous little independent bars, restaurants, shops, coffee slots, GONE. To Let.

    And this is before Mayor Khan's superb Lockdown Two.

    Central London is fucked in a way that most do not realise, and most have no comprehension what this will do to the UK tax take, and to our GDP, and to general living standards. We are headed to an economic disaster which will make the Great Depression look like the dot com bubble.
    Yet many of our market towns and villages in commuter ville and our suburbs have more people around to buy there lunch locally at lunchtime, so will take much less of a hit than our inner cities will with no commuters added onto restrictions on customers
    Does anyone WFH go out for lunch? Any PBers doing this?

    I visit the kitchen. Fridge, fruit bowl, kettle.
    I used to. Almost daily. Before the bug. Now it's f/f/k daily (from the community store aka hamster food shop, given its emphasis on the tofu and organic side, so it's been better for me actually).
    I'm not convinced of the efficacy of Tofu. Organic I'm with you on.
    Actually makes a good stir fry for supper - just two pans (one for the noodles) as the tofu can be flung into the veg near the end. I can't imagine uysing it in a sandwich ...
    Tofu needs chilli pepper and maybe soy sauce. It's also improves with some minced meat, but not if you are vegetarian I guess. Stir-fry or braise.
    I'm not sure why one would go about trying to improve it - the improvement is not to eat it. I don't class it as a foodstuff. The soy industry sells it as one based on the harmlessness of traditionally high soy diets in the Far East, but crucially that is fermented soy. If you're veggy, eat lots of eggs. That's nature's superfood, not some hideous blob of intensively-farmed cement. The Phyto-estrogens will give you man boobs into the bargain.
    Tofu is bland but absorbs flavours, which is why you want a heavy sauce to go with it. Like polenta or pasta I suppose, but without the starch or the heaviness. It's very nice if you cook it properly.
    Tofu is absolutely fantastic. I lived off it when I was a vegan in Taiwan. There are dozens of varieties. Go to a Chinese store and Google how to cook it.
    I do not have man boobs.
    My wife makes a very nice tofu and pea curry. I like it deep fried too, must be my Scottish heritage. Tofu is brilliant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,564
    .

    Andy_JS said:

    The government is terrible but I'm not sure any other party would be much better.

    My cat could do a better job than this government.
    While licking its own bottom. That's what I call multitasking!
    That’s something senior ministers delegate to others, I think.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Nigelb said:

    By way of light relief, is John Sopel the worst US correspondent the BBC has ever had ?
    Admittedly there’s some fairly stiff competition for that accolade, but he is truly awful.

    He's pretty bad but increasingly they send the truly dreadful James Naughtie to do specialized stories.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    The timing of the lockdown is rubbish - why can't we have it in the second half of November, when we'll have nextgen consoles and Cyberpunk 2077?
  • alex_ said:

    VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.

    Could it just be that the university is doing more widespread testing, whereas non university tests are concentrated on those who are genuinely suspected of having the virus? In such circumstances you would expect the university positivity numbers to be lower, not the same.

    The desperate attempts to claim that universities are not providing the seeding for some of these enormous rises in case numbers just doesn't pass the smell test.
    Trouble is that two things happened at once. First is that the increase that was already underway really began to take off in September/October. Second is the great school re-opening and uni student migration. I'm sure it's possible to tell them apart if you need to, but it's not trivially easy.
  • I've heard that many of the infected students are having their infections registered in their family locations rather than in their student locations - similar to how students might be registered to vote in different places.

    Does anyone know if this is correct ?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    Similar comments in email from local pub.
    ... While national and local restrictions have become ingrained in all of our lives, the most recent succession of restrictions has had a significant and cumulative, negative effect on our business.

    The curfew, as just one example, implemented with almost no notice, wiped out 30% of our (new) normal sales for the week. Our earlier reservation slots usually fill at shorter notice, but with the curfew being introduced, it was necessary for our later tables to arrive earlier, leaving fewer opportunities for two sittings.

    And now we have ‘Tiers’. The leaks to the press that last week led to days of reports that most of the hospitality sector in the north would soon be closed, led to cancellations, but also, a lack of new reservations. We lost a day of trading through being unsure whether to place beer orders, etc. Eventually we settled in as part of the vast Tier 2 community but with Tier 3 ever on the periphery…

    Sure, we are easily as much a restaurant as a pub, so could potentially continue to trade, but with the entire loss of our drinking and walk-in trade. That is on top of losing 40% of our capacity. On top of having only single household tables sat. On top of only being able to operate until 10pm. On top of the perhaps almost subconscious ‘spooking’ of potential guests that occurs each time a new announcement is made. On top of the fact we have spent far more of this year under restriction than not...

    That could have been written by my Daughter.

    She’s close to giving up. The job is no longer enjoyable or profitable. It is stress after stress after stress. She worries about her staff, so much so she is not sleeping properly. At 26 she has more decency in her little finger than exists in the whole of this government of incompetent crooks. Fuck the lot of them.
  • alex_ said:

    Actually the problem with the current government is the diametric opposite of it being corrupt and in the pockets of big business. If only it were. Instead it completely ignores what businesses, big and small, want.

    Business(es) in general just want certainty, stability and a level playing field.

    That doesn't mean that individual businesses will turn down money chucked at them. Of course companies like SERCO, Capita etc don't operate in competitive markets and don't require a level playing field. They get given massive Govt contracts, purely because all other companies fail the threshold test of being big enough or having experience of working on big Govt contracts in the past (no matter how bad a job they've done.
    Yes, well, address your criticisms to Tony Blair, under whose government Serco got well established in the market, and Capita - having routed big donations through to Labour - became for a while absolutely dominant in government contracts. I'm not sure it's valid as a particular criticism of the current government, whose faults are incompetence and ideological blindness.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    Similar comments in email from local pub.
    ... While national and local restrictions have become ingrained in all of our lives, the most recent succession of restrictions has had a significant and cumulative, negative effect on our business.

    The curfew, as just one example, implemented with almost no notice, wiped out 30% of our (new) normal sales for the week. Our earlier reservation slots usually fill at shorter notice, but with the curfew being introduced, it was necessary for our later tables to arrive earlier, leaving fewer opportunities for two sittings.

    And now we have ‘Tiers’. The leaks to the press that last week led to days of reports that most of the hospitality sector in the north would soon be closed, led to cancellations, but also, a lack of new reservations. We lost a day of trading through being unsure whether to place beer orders, etc. Eventually we settled in as part of the vast Tier 2 community but with Tier 3 ever on the periphery…

    Sure, we are easily as much a restaurant as a pub, so could potentially continue to trade, but with the entire loss of our drinking and walk-in trade. That is on top of losing 40% of our capacity. On top of having only single household tables sat. On top of only being able to operate until 10pm. On top of the perhaps almost subconscious ‘spooking’ of potential guests that occurs each time a new announcement is made. On top of the fact we have spent far more of this year under restriction than not...

    Along with everything else, one of the underacknowledged features of this crisis is the large amounts of money spent by businesses up and down the country to meet rules laid down by the Government to make themselves "Covid safe". For what? To discover that on a sixpence the Government can turn and damn them all, without nuance for the huge range of pubs and restaurants (and other businesses) - be they in/outside city/town environments , large, small, with gardens/without, regardless of attempts to comply with rules and enforcement on customers, as dangerous and to be restricted or shut.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    alex_ said:

    VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.

    Could it just be that the university is doing more widespread testing, whereas non university tests are concentrated on those who are genuinely suspected of having the virus? In such circumstances you would expect the university positivity numbers to be lower, not the same.

    The desperate attempts to claim that universities are not providing the seeding for some of these enormous rises in case numbers just doesn't pass the smell test.
    Trouble is that two things happened at once. First is that the increase that was already underway really began to take off in September/October. Second is the great school re-opening and uni student migration. I'm sure it's possible to tell them apart if you need to, but it's not trivially easy.
    Combine that with the end of the summer when people returned from Spain and other places with high levels of CV19...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Very interesting podcast. Well worth a listen. Takeaway is that the new Yes supporters are mostly women of all ages who took a more pragmatic risk approach back in 2014. The issue that resonated with me was a huge lack of trust amongst Scots for Westminster and the Johnson government.

    It does look like the end of the United Kingdom to me. I don't see the Conservatives changing from being the party of English nationalists and they have a partisan interest in denying any popular will in Scotland for independence, to show up Labour as the party in England that would break up the UK. Effectively othering the SNP and the nation of Scotland. That might stave off independence for a while but guarantees it eventually.

    Also the next couple of years will be grim.

    On the other hand, it does rather mean that the grievances of those reluctant yes supporters are being accumulated with and personified by the Johnson Government, like a bad bank. When Johnson himself goes, as he must at some point, a lot of the venom goes with him.
    Big question whether the move to Yes is structural, which the podcast didn't fully answer. My guess is that the Union isn't quite a lost cause yet but the circumstances that might rescue it are unlikely to transpire quickly enough. Even if Johnson goes I don't see the Conservatives shaking off their English nationalism and become a multi-cultural, open party of all nations but they are going to be in power for another four years as far as we know. Plenty of time for the consensus to independence to be embedded.
    Nothing is structural though is it? Everything is a feeling. You have ebbing and flowing and momentum, but it's still all based on sentiment - on emotion. And those are transient by their nature.
    I suppose. Scotland could go back to being a Labour fiefdom again. I don't see it. In the meantime, I suspect the independence consensus will firm up.
    The Partis Quebecois polled over 38% in every Quebec election from 1976 to 1998 and 49% in 1981 and the Bloc Quebecois also got 49% in Quebec in the 1993 Canadian general election and yet Quebec is still part of Canada
    I think what happened in Quebec is that the Quebecois discovered they could get autonomy on most of the stuff that mattered to them, while getting the benefits of the bigger state. Cake and eat it I guess. Actually something similar happened in Scotland in the 18th C after an initial dodgy patch following the Act of Union.

    It could happen here too, but none of it's happening right now.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited October 2020

    I've heard that many of the infected students are having their infections registered in their family locations rather than in their student locations - similar to how students might be registered to vote in different places.

    Does anyone know if this is correct ?

    We've discussed this - it's a major potential explanation for infections increasing rapidly in wealthier parts of London, despite little obvious cause or evidence of increased hospitalisation etc. Not that people like Khan seem very interested in finding reasons why things aren't quite as bad as he seems to think.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    Was on a tube train at about 8pm that only had 10 passengers. Very strange.
  • I've heard that many of the infected students are having their infections registered in their family locations rather than in their student locations - similar to how students might be registered to vote in different places.

    Does anyone know if this is correct ?

    IIRC, was told by friend in emergency management for local government, that something similar happened with numbers here in WA State re: college students contracting the Crud being credited (if that's right word) to home county (very often King Co) instead of the (much smaller) counties where they're attending school.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How dare, really how fucking dare, the government impose Tier 2 and Tier 3 on regions and then provide fuck all support for the businesses unable to trade and the people who will lose their jobs?

    How dare they claim there is no money when they and their friends and consultants are looting the state of billions?

    I am so furious with this government. FURIOUS!

    Read this twitter thread if you want apoplexy.

    https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1316711661600935936?s=19
    That is scarily brilliant!

    Why are Amazon exempt from the digital tax? The waste, incompetence, kleptocracy and corruption I have come to expect but don't understand the Amazon exemption?
    They will only pay tax on the revenue they earn from third party sellers. They have already told third party sellers that they will increase the fees charged to them to take account of this. So this digital tax will screw over small sellers and help Amazon.

    Absolute fucking genius!!
    That's not quite true. Google (for example) have started to charge more for advertising due to the tax, so our agency asked me if we wanted to pay it, or reduce our Google media spend accordingly. We reduced it. So that is them suffering.

    In Amazon's case, the sellers can raise their prices in order to pay Amazon's increased fees - this makes items on Amazon more expensive, meaning they potentially sell less. That is an affect on Amazon.
    Yes, but it disadvantages independent sellers on Amazon vs Amazon selling directly.
    I disagree with your answer to LadyG about how covid is a poor weapon to damage Western countries.

    If Western countries had let covid kill off the sick oldies and obese slobs then that might have improved their dependency ratio, boosted the young etc.

    But they didn't.

    Instead Western countries decided to sacrifice the young to save the sick oldies and obese slobs.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    I am no longer measuring Covid in weeks or months, but in buzz cuts. I self administered the clippers for the second time at the weekend.

    "It's only six buzz cuts to Christmas!"
    This cut should last me well past 12th night!
    Can’t you just go to the hairdresser?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,459

    VC of Nottingham uni says the proportion of students testing + is not out of line with the rest of the city's population.

    I find that stunningly hard to believe, but happy to be proved wrong with some actual data.

    Shouldn't be hard to check....

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/graph-shows-changes-number-coronavirus-4609498
    That's an interesting graph, largely because it confirms what I've been arguing for some time. The problem is not so much students in halls of residence, but those who live in private accommodation - i.e. in the community. It is precisely those students who are more likely to spread it in local shops, bars, buses and so on - hence the reason that it is spreading to older age groups. You can contain it in halls of residence, but not in students renting in the community.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This government is somehow doing a worse job each day. Tier 2 and you get no Government support, completely unacceptable

    It’s a gigantic “Fuck you” by the government to all the affected businesses and their employees by the government.

    Sunak is behind it. And why he should not replace Johnson. He will be the man whose actions - whose failure to support - will be the reason for bankrupt businesses and unemployed people. Even Labour should be able to make that case.

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Someone posted a website where you can input your postcode and see what restrictions you are under.

    If anyone has that I’d be very grateful.

    Thanks in advance.

    https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions
    Thank you.

    Worse than useless. There will be changes on Saturday but no details as to which areas are covered. Is Barrow-in Furness just the LA14 postcode? Or wider? And how the absolute fuck is any business supposed to know how to plan without such information?

    And, of course, this uncertainty means that people will be even less likely to go out, thus screwing over even those businesses which can open.

    There is no limit to the contempt I feel for the cretins in charge.

    Similar comments in email from local pub.
    ... While national and local restrictions have become ingrained in all of our lives, the most recent succession of restrictions has had a significant and cumulative, negative effect on our business.

    The curfew, as just one example, implemented with almost no notice, wiped out 30% of our (new) normal sales for the week. Our earlier reservation slots usually fill at shorter notice, but with the curfew being introduced, it was necessary for our later tables to arrive earlier, leaving fewer opportunities for two sittings.

    And now we have ‘Tiers’. The leaks to the press that last week led to days of reports that most of the hospitality sector in the north would soon be closed, led to cancellations, but also, a lack of new reservations. We lost a day of trading through being unsure whether to place beer orders, etc. Eventually we settled in as part of the vast Tier 2 community but with Tier 3 ever on the periphery…

    Sure, we are easily as much a restaurant as a pub, so could potentially continue to trade, but with the entire loss of our drinking and walk-in trade. That is on top of losing 40% of our capacity. On top of having only single household tables sat. On top of only being able to operate until 10pm. On top of the perhaps almost subconscious ‘spooking’ of potential guests that occurs each time a new announcement is made. On top of the fact we have spent far more of this year under restriction than not...

    That could have been written by my Daughter.

    She’s close to giving up. The job is no longer enjoyable or profitable. It is stress after stress after stress. She worries about her staff, so much so she is not sleeping properly. At 26 she has more decency in her little finger than exists in the whole of this government of incompetent crooks. Fuck the lot of them.
    "To be honest I think we're done," Dan's Bar owner Gerard Keenan told BBC News NI.

    "In a couple of weeks or so if it hasn't changed I think we've no choice, we'll have to sell our bar, I don't really want to do this anymore."

    Mr Keenan said his business had been praised by Belfast City Council and police who had inspected safety measures introduced since pubs were allowed to reopen.

    "I thought we were doing an excellent job in our pub," he said, adding that the latest measures have "cut the feet from beneath us"."


    - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-54536480
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    I would say HYUFD, Marquee Mark and Charles are shy Trumpers. Possibly Andy JS.
  • I would say HYUFD, Marquee Mark and Charles are shy Trumpers. Possibly Andy JS.

    Hyufd's too obvious. A decoy, maybe....
This discussion has been closed.