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If Trumps wins next month, it’s the economy, stupid – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,607

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    What’s amazing about Nadal is not that he’s forever winning at RG, but that occasionally somebody’s managed to beat him.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Looks like there is life in Peckham.

    Nice clip anyway. Good to see a bit of street cricket rather than any aggro.
    Its interesting how the rise and fall of the West Indies cricket team was mirrored by the rise and fall of English cricketers of West Indian heritage.
    The pull of big money football and hoops?
    Sure, but can you see Viv Richards as a basketball player or Devon Malcolm as a footballer ?

    Few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Although Viv Richards did play world cup qualifiers for Antigua in football.
    He did and also had a trial for Bath City.

    Playing for Antigua at football is rather different to playing for Antigua at cricket :wink:
    There are 13 *English* dual internationals, including C B Fry :wink:
    695 English test cricketers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_Test_cricketers

    1244 English international football players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers

    1410 English international rugby union players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

    As I said few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Yes. Have you discounted the ones who never bothered to try?

    What is really wrong with your point is that we are talking about career choices made by the very young, so established sportsmen moonlighting at something else are kinda not relevant.
    Perhaps you could name some who could have played at professional level at different sports.

    Phil Neville was apparently a fine cricketer and Ian Botham could have been a rugged central defender (though not of international class).

    How many more ? A few certainly.

    And that's what I said to begin with.
    No, look: the subject of discussion was what sport is likely to give the best prospects for a young Caribbean bloke deciding on a career path. The question is whether if the young Viv Richards had never heard of cricket and was born in a baseball or basketball culture he would have excelled. The argument is an a fortiori one: if he (and C B Fry) can manage a career as an international footballer in his spare time when he is basically a cricketer, he could sure as fck make it big as a baseball or tennis player (both closer to cricket than football is) if he had devoted himself to those sports from the get go. Do you think Americans are *genetically* predisposed to baseball, or that they take innate talent and turn it to what happens to be available?

    As I say 13 people have played both cricket and football for England. CB Fry also held the world long jump record.
    How many of them were at the very pinnacle of either sport while still playing the other? The last of those 13, Arthur Milton, was capped once for football and eight times for cricket. He was essentially a good solid county cricketer who earned extra money in the off season by playing for a London club (I forget which) and was called up for football in an injury crisis. Generally, to reach the top of a sport you have to fully commit to it.

    I would have thought the closest thing to a modern sportsman who excelled in multiple disciplines would be AB de Villiers, but Kyle Edmund and the Neville brothers both played under-19 cricket.

    Among women, of course, Ellyse Perry is something of a dazzling exception but I think she’s given up football now.
    That is exactly the point. If even those by no means fully commited to their second sport can get that far in it, that is a powerful argument for the fungibility of athletic talent.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Looks like there is life in Peckham.

    Nice clip anyway. Good to see a bit of street cricket rather than any aggro.
    Its interesting how the rise and fall of the West Indies cricket team was mirrored by the rise and fall of English cricketers of West Indian heritage.
    The pull of big money football and hoops?
    Sure, but can you see Viv Richards as a basketball player or Devon Malcolm as a footballer ?

    Few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Although Viv Richards did play world cup qualifiers for Antigua in football.
    He did and also had a trial for Bath City.

    Playing for Antigua at football is rather different to playing for Antigua at cricket :wink:
    There are 13 *English* dual internationals, including C B Fry :wink:
    695 English test cricketers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_Test_cricketers

    1244 English international football players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers

    1410 English international rugby union players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

    As I said few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Yes. Have you discounted the ones who never bothered to try?

    What is really wrong with your point is that we are talking about career choices made by the very young, so established sportsmen moonlighting at something else are kinda not relevant.
    Perhaps you could name some who could have played at professional level at different sports.

    Phil Neville was apparently a fine cricketer and Ian Botham could have been a rugged central defender (though not of international class).

    How many more ? A few certainly.

    And that's what I said to begin with.
    No, look: the subject of discussion was what sport is likely to give the best prospects for a young Caribbean bloke deciding on a career path. The question is whether if the young Viv Richards had never heard of cricket and was born in a baseball or basketball culture he would have excelled. The argument is an a fortiori one: if he (and C B Fry) can manage a career as an international footballer in his spare time when he is basically a cricketer, he could sure as fck make it big as a baseball or tennis player (both closer to cricket than football is) if he had devoted himself to those sports from the get go. Do you think Americans are *genetically* predisposed to baseball, or that they take innate talent and turn it to what happens to be available?

    As I say 13 people have played both cricket and football for England. CB Fry also held the world long jump record.
    Revealing that you keep harking back to CB Fry.

    A man whose sporting achievements were pre 1914, in some cases pre 1900.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,170
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,170
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    What’s amazing about Nadal is not that he’s forever winning at RG, but that occasionally somebody’s managed to beat him.
    I happened to watch the Soderling match in 2009. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,745
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Looks like there is life in Peckham.

    Nice clip anyway. Good to see a bit of street cricket rather than any aggro.
    Its interesting how the rise and fall of the West Indies cricket team was mirrored by the rise and fall of English cricketers of West Indian heritage.
    The pull of big money football and hoops?
    Sure, but can you see Viv Richards as a basketball player or Devon Malcolm as a footballer ?

    Few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Although Viv Richards did play world cup qualifiers for Antigua in football.
    He did and also had a trial for Bath City.

    Playing for Antigua at football is rather different to playing for Antigua at cricket :wink:
    There are 13 *English* dual internationals, including C B Fry :wink:
    695 English test cricketers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_Test_cricketers

    1244 English international football players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers

    1410 English international rugby union players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

    As I said few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Yes. Have you discounted the ones who never bothered to try?

    What is really wrong with your point is that we are talking about career choices made by the very young, so established sportsmen moonlighting at something else are kinda not relevant.
    Perhaps you could name some who could have played at professional level at different sports.

    Phil Neville was apparently a fine cricketer and Ian Botham could have been a rugged central defender (though not of international class).

    How many more ? A few certainly.

    And that's what I said to begin with.
    No, look: the subject of discussion was what sport is likely to give the best prospects for a young Caribbean bloke deciding on a career path. The question is whether if the young Viv Richards had never heard of cricket and was born in a baseball or basketball culture he would have excelled. The argument is an a fortiori one: if he (and C B Fry) can manage a career as an international footballer in his spare time when he is basically a cricketer, he could sure as fck make it big as a baseball or tennis player (both closer to cricket than football is) if he had devoted himself to those sports from the get go. Do you think Americans are *genetically* predisposed to baseball, or that they take innate talent and turn it to what happens to be available?

    As I say 13 people have played both cricket and football for England. CB Fry also held the world long jump record.
    How many of them were at the very pinnacle of either sport while still playing the other? The last of those 13, Arthur Milton, was capped once for football and eight times for cricket. He was essentially a good solid county cricketer who earned extra money in the off season by playing for a London club (I forget which) and was called up for football in an injury crisis. Generally, to reach the top of a sport you have to fully commit to it.

    I would have thought the closest thing to a modern sportsman who excelled in multiple disciplines would be AB de Villiers, but Kyle Edmund and the Neville brothers both played under-19 cricket.

    Among women, of course, Ellyse Perry is something of a dazzling exception but I think she’s given up football now.
    Historically playing for England was the pinnacle of most sports.

    (I guess this was only a little compromised in the 60s, a bit more in the 70s, and to where it is today in the 80/90s)

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,806
    edited October 2020
    MaxPB said:

    That Premier League plan sounds awful. Even as a supporter of a big six club I'm hugely against it. Get rid of the league cup if there's fixture congestion a 20 team league is a must have.

    There is no need to get rid of the league cup due to fixture congestion. Teams who are concerned about that can and do play a mix of reserves and youth players who benefit from the game time.

    The real reason the big 6 want to get rid of the league cup is to allow more UEFA club games.

    It probably increases rather than reduces the impact of congestion on the players as clubs will be less likely to rotate for those extra UEFA games.
  • nova said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
    Looking around at my neighbours suggests there are a lot of people who say they are pro-lockdown but don't take a blind bit of notice of the rules.
    Do as I say, not as I do, comes to mind
  • nova said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
    Looking around at my neighbours suggests there are a lot of people who say they are pro-lockdown but don't take a blind bit of notice of the rules.
    Quite, the nation is in favour of locking down everyone else but them.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,987
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Man Utd and Liverpool put forward a joint proposal to reduce the Premier League to 18 teams and the clubs to have much more say on matters including the league cup and in return will support the lower leagues with 250 million

    Seems it has support and looks like the start of something good for all football

    Well done to the two of them

    Sorry, but you're wrong. What these scumbag owners are proposing is disgraceful. I'm unlikely to be able to go any time soon, but if Arsenal are supporting this, I will no longer be supporting them.
    What do you object to so fervently?

    Supporting lower league clubs more and giving 25% of PL income to the rest of the football pyramid on an ongoing basis seems like a healthy move.
    I oppose the Big 6 banning anyone else from challenging them.
    Sounds like a first step towards a USA style franchise league with high cost barrier to joining or substituting for existing.
  • Shaun Murphy (snooker)attempted to qualify for the Open golf one year I think
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,747

    MaxPB said:

    That Premier League plan sounds awful. Even as a supporter of a big six club I'm hugely against it. Get rid of the league cup if there's fixture congestion a 20 team league is a must have.

    There is no need to get rid of the league cup due to fixture congestion. Teams who are concerned about that can and do play a mix of reserves and youth players who benefit from the game time.

    The real reason the big 6 want to get rid of the league cup is to allow more UEFA club games.

    It probably increases rather than reduces the impact of congestion on the players as clubs will be less likely to rotate for those extra UEFA games.
    Which is fine, but we still only need one domestic cup.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    Shaun Murphy (snooker)attempted to qualify for the Open golf one year I think

    We were talking about sports.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    nova said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
    Looking around at my neighbours suggests there are a lot of people who say they are pro-lockdown but don't take a blind bit of notice of the rules.
    Quite, the nation is in favour of locking down everyone else but them.
    If it’s good enough for Cummings...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,170
    edited October 2020
    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Man Utd and Liverpool put forward a joint proposal to reduce the Premier League to 18 teams and the clubs to have much more say on matters including the league cup and in return will support the lower leagues with 250 million

    Seems it has support and looks like the start of something good for all football

    Well done to the two of them

    Sorry, but you're wrong. What these scumbag owners are proposing is disgraceful. I'm unlikely to be able to go any time soon, but if Arsenal are supporting this, I will no longer be supporting them.
    What do you object to so fervently?

    Supporting lower league clubs more and giving 25% of PL income to the rest of the football pyramid on an ongoing basis seems like a healthy move.
    I oppose the Big 6 banning anyone else from challenging them.
    Sounds like a first step towards a USA style franchise league with high cost barrier to joining or substituting for existing.
    No, that US system is good, if different. The Dallas Cowboys is the most valuable sports brand in the world. But they've still only won four post-season matches in the last 24 years.

    It's the main reason that I don't think a European Super League will happen. If it did, it would only ever be won by Barcelona, Real Madrid or Bayern Munich. The rest would be there to make up the numbers.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,809
    edited October 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    I don't think being anti lockdown correlates much to how people view the EU . I for instance don't get worked up by much in politics but the two things that have had me vexed recently have been that I believe that lockdown was wrong and also that I think leaving the EU was stupid. If I had to link why I had those views it would be a belief in the individual being better at leading their own life's than a state collective and both lockdown and Brexit reduce individual opportunity and freedom especially for the young and ambitious.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,769
    F1: post-race ramble:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2020/10/germany-post-race-analysis-2020.html

    I was wrong about Hulkenberg and points, but also about how many cars would end up retiring. Verstappen bet ended up mildly profitable, but that's fine.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Looks like there is life in Peckham.

    Nice clip anyway. Good to see a bit of street cricket rather than any aggro.
    Its interesting how the rise and fall of the West Indies cricket team was mirrored by the rise and fall of English cricketers of West Indian heritage.
    The pull of big money football and hoops?
    Sure, but can you see Viv Richards as a basketball player or Devon Malcolm as a footballer ?

    Few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Although Viv Richards did play world cup qualifiers for Antigua in football.
    He did and also had a trial for Bath City.

    Playing for Antigua at football is rather different to playing for Antigua at cricket :wink:
    There are 13 *English* dual internationals, including C B Fry :wink:
    695 English test cricketers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_Test_cricketers

    1244 English international football players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers

    1410 English international rugby union players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

    As I said few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Yes. Have you discounted the ones who never bothered to try?

    What is really wrong with your point is that we are talking about career choices made by the very young, so established sportsmen moonlighting at something else are kinda not relevant.
    Perhaps you could name some who could have played at professional level at different sports.

    Phil Neville was apparently a fine cricketer and Ian Botham could have been a rugged central defender (though not of international class).

    How many more ? A few certainly.

    And that's what I said to begin with.
    No, look: the subject of discussion was what sport is likely to give the best prospects for a young Caribbean bloke deciding on a career path. The question is whether if the young Viv Richards had never heard of cricket and was born in a baseball or basketball culture he would have excelled. The argument is an a fortiori one: if he (and C B Fry) can manage a career as an international footballer in his spare time when he is basically a cricketer, he could sure as fck make it big as a baseball or tennis player (both closer to cricket than football is) if he had devoted himself to those sports from the get go. Do you think Americans are *genetically* predisposed to baseball, or that they take innate talent and turn it to what happens to be available?

    As I say 13 people have played both cricket and football for England. CB Fry also held the world long jump record.
    Revealing that you keep harking back to CB Fry.

    A man whose sporting achievements were pre 1914, in some cases pre 1900.
    Yes. I have also referred you to this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_cricket_and_football_players and there's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_double-international_sportspeople and a whole stack of other stuff.

    Fry's antiquity is actually a point against you. What has changed between then and now? The answer is professionalism and intensity of training, implying that it is those factors - not innate adaptation to one sport over another - which make it harder to do now than it was then.

    Also, Lord Botham PBUH is still with us and Clare Taylor is younger than I am.

    This is an "even if" argument. If actual professional cricketers in their 30s (enough of them to establish that they are not freaks) can play another sport at international level effectively as a hobby and in their spare time, it is ludicrous to suggest that they could not do so if they had specialised in that sport instead of cricket in the first place.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,747
    nova said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
    Looking around at my neighbours suggests there are a lot of people who say they are pro-lockdown but don't take a blind bit of notice of the rules.
    Yes, lockdown is the same as higher taxes, something for other people.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    That Premier League plan sounds awful. Even as a supporter of a big six club I'm hugely against it. Get rid of the league cup if there's fixture congestion a 20 team league is a must have.

    There is no need to get rid of the league cup due to fixture congestion. Teams who are concerned about that can and do play a mix of reserves and youth players who benefit from the game time.

    The real reason the big 6 want to get rid of the league cup is to allow more UEFA club games.

    It probably increases rather than reduces the impact of congestion on the players as clubs will be less likely to rotate for those extra UEFA games.
    Which is fine, but we still only need one domestic cup.
    There is no "need" for any domestic cup. Whether we have none, one, two, or more is a matter of preference which will vary. Personally I dont have a strong view between one or two, the league cup has become a developmental competition to see young players come through which seems fine. I am more surprised the non big 6 premier league teams don't even take the FA cup seriously, even when they are safely mid table.

    The discussions would be easier if the big 6 were honest about their motivation imo.
  • ydoethur said:

    Shaun Murphy (snooker)attempted to qualify for the Open golf one year I think

    We were talking about sports.
    A whole new debate that one!
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    I don't think being anti lockdown correlates much to how people view the EU . I for instance don't get worked up by much in politics but the two things that have had me vexed recently have been that I believe that lockdown was wrong and also that I think leaving the EU was stupid. If I had to link why I had those views it would be a belief in the individual being better at leading their own life's than a state collective and both lockdown and Brexit reduce individual opportunity and freedom
    I'm also pro-EU and anti-lockdown and seem to be in learned company

    https://www.legalcheek.com/2019/05/lord-sumption-theresa-may-deserves-respect-but-boris-johnsons-a-clown/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,086
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Would this be the first change of PM/President of a major country during the pandemic? It will serve as a nice way of showing whether the solutions, and their implementation, are as easy as the opposition said.
    Indeed. I predict he will be little better than Trump in effect, though he will talk slightly more coherently. Most of the decisions are made at state level, for a start.

    You can't "end a pandemic". It's a storm which must be endured - and the damage mitigated, in various ways.
    Of course you can end a pandemic. It might take years or even decades to achieve. When was the last time anyone contracted Spanish flu?
    Pandemics generally end themselves. They burn out, like wildfires. They are not "ended" by humans.

    "To this day, smallpox is the only human infectious disease to have been completely eradicated"



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic
    Sure, but lots of other infectious diseases - mumps, measles, rubella, polio, chicken pox, whopping cough - have been effectively eliminated in developed countries
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited October 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    I don't think being anti lockdown correlates much to how people view the EU . I for instance don't get worked up by much in politics but the two things that have had me vexed recently have been that I believe that lockdown was wrong and also that I think leaving the EU was stupid.
    Seems that the underlying primary consideration in your two positions is economics - EU good for the economy, lockdown bad for the economy.

    Change primary consideration, you get different results. Prime concern
    1. individual agency => EU bad, lockdown bad
    2. communitarianism => EU good, lockdown good
    3. UK sovereignty => EU bad, lockdown good or bad depending on the will of the people, so currently good.

    and so on ...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,170
    Bring back the Zenith Data Systems Cup is what I say...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Members'_Cup
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    That Premier League plan sounds awful. Even as a supporter of a big six club I'm hugely against it. Get rid of the league cup if there's fixture congestion a 20 team league is a must have.

    There is no need to get rid of the league cup due to fixture congestion. Teams who are concerned about that can and do play a mix of reserves and youth players who benefit from the game time.

    The real reason the big 6 want to get rid of the league cup is to allow more UEFA club games.

    It probably increases rather than reduces the impact of congestion on the players as clubs will be less likely to rotate for those extra UEFA games.
    Which is fine, but we still only need one domestic cup.
    There is no "need" for any domestic cup. Whether we have none, one, two, or more is a matter of preference which will vary. Personally I dont have a strong view between one or two, the league cup has become a developmental competition to see young players come through which seems fine. I am more surprised the non big 6 premier league teams don't even take the FA cup seriously, even when they are safely mid table.

    The discussions would be easier if the big 6 were honest about their motivation imo.
    Yes for 14 premier league clubs the FA cup /League Cup is the only trophy they can realistically ever win. At least lower league teams can win their league. I have no idea why mid tier premier league teams dont play their strongest teams in the FA Cup at least either
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Looks like there is life in Peckham.

    Nice clip anyway. Good to see a bit of street cricket rather than any aggro.
    Its interesting how the rise and fall of the West Indies cricket team was mirrored by the rise and fall of English cricketers of West Indian heritage.
    The pull of big money football and hoops?
    Sure, but can you see Viv Richards as a basketball player or Devon Malcolm as a footballer ?

    Few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Although Viv Richards did play world cup qualifiers for Antigua in football.
    He did and also had a trial for Bath City.

    Playing for Antigua at football is rather different to playing for Antigua at cricket :wink:
    There are 13 *English* dual internationals, including C B Fry :wink:
    695 English test cricketers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_Test_cricketers

    1244 English international football players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers

    1410 English international rugby union players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

    As I said few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Yes. Have you discounted the ones who never bothered to try?

    What is really wrong with your point is that we are talking about career choices made by the very young, so established sportsmen moonlighting at something else are kinda not relevant.
    Perhaps you could name some who could have played at professional level at different sports.

    Phil Neville was apparently a fine cricketer and Ian Botham could have been a rugged central defender (though not of international class).

    How many more ? A few certainly.

    And that's what I said to begin with.
    No, look: the subject of discussion was what sport is likely to give the best prospects for a young Caribbean bloke deciding on a career path. The question is whether if the young Viv Richards had never heard of cricket and was born in a baseball or basketball culture he would have excelled. The argument is an a fortiori one: if he (and C B Fry) can manage a career as an international footballer in his spare time when he is basically a cricketer, he could sure as fck make it big as a baseball or tennis player (both closer to cricket than football is) if he had devoted himself to those sports from the get go. Do you think Americans are *genetically* predisposed to baseball, or that they take innate talent and turn it to what happens to be available?

    As I say 13 people have played both cricket and football for England. CB Fry also held the world long jump record.
    How many of them were at the very pinnacle of either sport while still playing the other? The last of those 13, Arthur Milton, was capped once for football and eight times for cricket. He was essentially a good solid county cricketer who earned extra money in the off season by playing for a London club (I forget which) and was called up for football in an injury crisis. Generally, to reach the top of a sport you have to fully commit to it.

    I would have thought the closest thing to a modern sportsman who excelled in multiple disciplines would be AB de Villiers, but Kyle Edmund and the Neville brothers both played under-19 cricket.

    Among women, of course, Ellyse Perry is something of a dazzling exception but I think she’s given up football now.
    That is exactly the point. If even those by no means fully commited to their second sport can get that far in it, that is a powerful argument for the fungibility of athletic talent.
    Wikipedia has lists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multi-sport_athletes
  • novanova Posts: 690
    MaxPB said:

    That Premier League plan sounds awful. Even as a supporter of a big six club I'm hugely against it. Get rid of the league cup if there's fixture congestion a 20 team league is a must have.

    Really odd that Liverpool are briefing that Rick Parry is driving it - Sounds like PR/a stitch up - why would the head of the EFL be proposing a power grab by nine clubs in the Premier League while the EFL is at its most vulnerable? I think the Football League clubs might start asking themselves exactly who Rick Parry is working for.

    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-parry-project-big-picture-19086660
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,531
    edited October 2020
    Matthew Parris is a prominent example of an arch-Remainer who doesn't support the lockdown strategy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    Then, of course, there’s the dual skills of Chinese Opera, and mixed martial arts...

    https://twitter.com/manyapan/status/1315286769915564032
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,809
    edited October 2020


    I don't think being anti lockdown correlates much to how people view the EU . I for instance don't get worked up by much in politics but the two things that have had me vexed recently have been that I believe that lockdown was wrong and also that I think leaving the EU was stupid.

    Seems that the underlying primary consideration in your two positions is economics - EU good for the economy, lockdown bad for the economy.

    Change primary consideration, you get different results. Prime concern
    1. individual agency => EU bad, lockdown bad
    2. communitarianism => EU good, lockdown good
    3. UK sovereignty => EU bad, lockdown good or bad depending on the will of the people, so currently good.

    and so on ...


    I view the EU has being good for the individual not bad - free movement etc. Never been a fan of nationalism or insular looking countries (of which the UK has now become)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,086

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    He's not deranged and he can read a speech.

    Basically he's a clapped out politico overdue for retirement.

    Do the Democrats not have a single Governor who is 40-60, sensible, competent ?

    That, to me, is the most disappointing aspect.
    The problem the Democrats had this year is that they had about a dozen candidates in the "centre lane", and Bernie and Elizabeth on the Left.

    This meant that none of the other centrists (except perhaps Buttigieg and Bloomberg) really got any airtime.

    If the Iowa count had not been messed up, than Buttigieg may have ridden victory there to a win in New Hampshire, and this election might have been very different.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,020

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    For me, Joe Biden, Acceptable under the Circumstances will simply not be surpassed in this electoral cycle. Its just perfect:
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=joe+biden+acceptable+under+the+circumstances&view=detail&mid=E38681665652AB52FF07E38681665652AB52FF07&FORM=VIRE
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,170
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
    I don't claim to be an expert, but I think it's specifically the Parisian Clay that he is ridiculously dominant on. I think it's the bounce and spin he can generate on it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,531
    Andy_JS said:

    Matthew Parris is a prominent example of an arch-Remainer who doesn't support the lockdown strategy.

    Melanie Phillips is someone in the opposite camps on both subjects.
  • kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
    clay slows the ball to the extent that the best touch tennis player wins I suppose . Negates the big serving which is a separate skill in itself.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited October 2020

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Looks like there is life in Peckham.

    Nice clip anyway. Good to see a bit of street cricket rather than any aggro.
    Its interesting how the rise and fall of the West Indies cricket team was mirrored by the rise and fall of English cricketers of West Indian heritage.
    The pull of big money football and hoops?
    Sure, but can you see Viv Richards as a basketball player or Devon Malcolm as a footballer ?

    Few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Although Viv Richards did play world cup qualifiers for Antigua in football.
    He did and also had a trial for Bath City.

    Playing for Antigua at football is rather different to playing for Antigua at cricket :wink:
    There are 13 *English* dual internationals, including C B Fry :wink:
    695 English test cricketers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_Test_cricketers

    1244 English international football players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers

    1410 English international rugby union players

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

    As I said few sportsmen are professional standard at more than one sport.
    Yes. Have you discounted the ones who never bothered to try?

    What is really wrong with your point is that we are talking about career choices made by the very young, so established sportsmen moonlighting at something else are kinda not relevant.
    Perhaps you could name some who could have played at professional level at different sports.

    Phil Neville was apparently a fine cricketer and Ian Botham could have been a rugged central defender (though not of international class).

    How many more ? A few certainly.

    And that's what I said to begin with.
    Isnt the answer to a quiz question Ian Botham in that if you ask who is the only England Captain to play for Scunthorpe?

    Also Daley Thompson (not content with being good at 10 events) also played football for Mansfield for a couple of appearances i think
    It is but the answer is wrong! Ray Clemence has done both as well. And Keegan as well.
    Jim Cumbes? Baggies and Villa Keeper, also played cricket, medium pace bowler Lancs and Surrey, I think. Baggies first choice goalkeeper for a time. I seem to remember Worcs. in the cricket mix too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786
    rcs1000 said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    He's not deranged and he can read a speech.

    Basically he's a clapped out politico overdue for retirement.

    Do the Democrats not have a single Governor who is 40-60, sensible, competent ?

    That, to me, is the most disappointing aspect.
    The problem the Democrats had this year is that they had about a dozen candidates in the "centre lane", and Bernie and Elizabeth on the Left.

    This meant that none of the other centrists (except perhaps Buttigieg and Bloomberg) really got any airtime.

    If the Iowa count had not been messed up, than Buttigieg may have ridden victory there to a win in New Hampshire, and this election might have been very different.
    Not a functioning democracy, take #22.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,170

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
    clay slows the ball to the extent that the best touch tennis player wins I suppose . Negates the big serving which is a separate skill in itself.
    Actually, I think clay favours big hitters in terms of ground shots. Henman didn't have a huge serve, but his touch at the net meant he could compete on the grass at Wimbledon. Although, oddly, I actually think his best chance to win a slam was the 04 French.

    Sadly, Wimbledon doesn't play like it did pre-2002. The ball bounces more than it used to which means the baseline bashers don't have to adapt their game. One thing Federer has that Nadal and Djokovic don't is that he beat Sampras at Wimbledon.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,745

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    Biden has cost me a little bit in confounding expectations. I'm baffled in that to my mind he was the only Democratic candidate that was worse than Trump. I still think he is worse than Trump.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
    clay slows the ball to the extent that the best touch tennis player wins I suppose . Negates the big serving which is a separate skill in itself.
    Also emphasises his truly phenomenal stamina with longer points and greater emphasis on tactical awareness than raw power (not that he's particularly bad at that either).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    nova said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
    Looking around at my neighbours suggests there are a lot of people who say they are pro-lockdown but don't take a blind bit of notice of the rules.
    Quite, the nation is in favour of locking down everyone else but them.
    Which, with a majority of active voters being pensioners, puts the finger right on the nub of the matter.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,745
    IanB2 said:

    nova said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Not really. There is a large pro-lockdown majority, which must include lots of Leavers (though I accept the p[oint in the last thread that being pro-lockdown is easier if you're not affected). The new division is between "robust libertarians" (a subset of Leave) and more or less everyone else.
    It is an artificial divide. What does pro lockdown even mean? And even the GB declaration mob are planning to quarantine around a quarter of the population. The reality is that almost everyone is along the 50 shades of grey.
    I wonder how many people are shy anti-lockdowners. Or lockdowns-are-great-except-I-want-to-go-to-toga-parties...
    Looking around at my neighbours suggests there are a lot of people who say they are pro-lockdown but don't take a blind bit of notice of the rules.
    Quite, the nation is in favour of locking down everyone else but them.
    Which, with a majority of active voters being pensioners, puts the finger right on the nub of the matter.
    "a majority of active voters being pensioners"

    Surely that's not right?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    The accidental genius of the Biden choice is that almost no one hates him.
    He has also assembled what looks to be a truly excellent campaign team, which hopefully augurs well for being able to so the same in the White House.

    Add to that an ability to work with broad coalitions of those who disagree with him, and the fact that he’s very likely to retire after a single term, and he’s really not a terrible choice if you’re looking to offer an alternative to the administrative chaos of Trump.
  • https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-poll-majority-brits-disagree-boris-johnson-eu-trade-deal-2020-10

    It would be interesting to run a poll asking what the average person thought Johnson’s election message meant. I wonder if many thought he meant no deal
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    The accidental genius of the Biden choice is that almost no one hates him.
    He has also assembled what looks to be a truly excellent campaign team, which hopefully augurs well for being able to so the same in the White House.

    Add to that an ability to work with broad coalitions of those who disagree with him, and the fact that he’s very likely to retire after a single term, and he’s really not a terrible choice if you’re looking to offer an alternative to the administrative chaos of Trump.
    A good point. I just hope it works out.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    Biden has cost me a little bit in confounding expectations. I'm baffled in that to my mind he was the only Democratic candidate that was worse than Trump. I still think he is worse than Trump.


    I couldn't name a worse candidate than Trump. That is not to say he might not win.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,947
    edited October 2020
    12,872 new cases.

    Incoming twattish journos with cases down x% (or do they only do that when it is a daily increase).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,531
    Nigelb said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    The accidental genius of the Biden choice is that almost no one hates him.
    He has also assembled what looks to be a truly excellent campaign team, which hopefully augurs well for being able to so the same in the White House.

    Add to that an ability to work with broad coalitions of those who disagree with him, and the fact that he’s very likely to retire after a single term, and he’s really not a terrible choice if you’re looking to offer an alternative to the administrative chaos of Trump.
    I thought that was one of the main attractions of Biden the whole time, that he was inoffensive to most people.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005

    Nigelb said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    The accidental genius of the Biden choice is that almost no one hates him.
    He has also assembled what looks to be a truly excellent campaign team, which hopefully augurs well for being able to so the same in the White House.

    Add to that an ability to work with broad coalitions of those who disagree with him, and the fact that he’s very likely to retire after a single term, and he’s really not a terrible choice if you’re looking to offer an alternative to the administrative chaos of Trump.
    A good point. I just hope it works out.
    I don’t know how he’ll turn out as President - and I suspect much turns on whether or not the Democrats have a Senate majority - but my gut feel is that he’ll do OK.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    The accidental genius of the Biden choice is that almost no one hates him.
    He has also assembled what looks to be a truly excellent campaign team, which hopefully augurs well for being able to so the same in the White House.

    Add to that an ability to work with broad coalitions of those who disagree with him, and the fact that he’s very likely to retire after a single term, and he’s really not a terrible choice if you’re looking to offer an alternative to the administrative chaos of Trump.
    A good point. I just hope it works out.
    I don’t know how he’ll turn out as President - and I suspect much turns on whether or not the Democrats have a Senate majority - but my gut feel is that he’ll do OK.
    My concern wasn't how well he does as President. I am still nervous that Trump remains resident in Trump Tower, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    12,872 new cases.

    Incoming twattish journos with cases down x% (or do they only do that when it is a daily increase).

    Well we must take any good (ish) news that we can. A few days ago it looked like we might be exploding just like France (they had an incredible 26,000 new cases yesterday). Perhaps, just perhaps, the 10pm curfews and so on are slowing it down. Inshallah!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    LadyG said:

    12,872 new cases.

    Incoming twattish journos with cases down x% (or do they only do that when it is a daily increase).

    Well we must take any good (ish) news that we can. A few days ago it looked like we might be exploding just like France (they had an incredible 26,000 new cases yesterday). Perhaps, just perhaps, the 10pm curfews and so on are slowing it down. Inshallah!!
    Weekend.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    The accidental genius of the Biden choice is that almost no one hates him.
    He has also assembled what looks to be a truly excellent campaign team, which hopefully augurs well for being able to so the same in the White House.

    Add to that an ability to work with broad coalitions of those who disagree with him, and the fact that he’s very likely to retire after a single term, and he’s really not a terrible choice if you’re looking to offer an alternative to the administrative chaos of Trump.
    I thought that was one of the main attractions of Biden the whole time, that he was inoffensive to most people.
    Yes, he’s the generic not-Trump choice.
    But I think the combination of being both very old and a team player might work quite well.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
    clay slows the ball to the extent that the best touch tennis player wins I suppose . Negates the big serving which is a separate skill in itself.
    Actually, I think clay favours big hitters in terms of ground shots. Henman didn't have a huge serve, but his touch at the net meant he could compete on the grass at Wimbledon. Although, oddly, I actually think his best chance to win a slam was the 04 French.

    Sadly, Wimbledon doesn't play like it did pre-2002. The ball bounces more than it used to which means the baseline bashers don't have to adapt their game. One thing Federer has that Nadal and Djokovic don't is that he beat Sampras at Wimbledon.
    I think that last comment is a bit unfair, given neither Nadal nor Djokovic were playing grand slam competitions when Sampras retired, so they never had a chance to beat him at Wimbledon. What is remarkable about Federer is how he is still able to play top level singles tennis in his late thirties.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456

    Well we have 5 out of 7. a 70% plus healthy pass in examination terms.

    We just fail on those minor issues of fast sensitive testing and contact tracing.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,747
    LadyG said:

    12,872 new cases.

    Incoming twattish journos with cases down x% (or do they only do that when it is a daily increase).

    Well we must take any good (ish) news that we can. A few days ago it looked like we might be exploding just like France (they had an incredible 26,000 new cases yesterday). Perhaps, just perhaps, the 10pm curfews and so on are slowing it down. Inshallah!!
    Weekend, let's see what it is on Monday.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786
    Nigelb said:

    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456

    What does it say about our society and education system that anyone feels the need to explain this? I mean, isn't this obvious?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    12,872 new cases.

    Incoming twattish journos with cases down x% (or do they only do that when it is a daily increase).

    Well we must take any good (ish) news that we can. A few days ago it looked like we might be exploding just like France (they had an incredible 26,000 new cases yesterday). Perhaps, just perhaps, the 10pm curfews and so on are slowing it down. Inshallah!!
    Weekend, let's see what it is on Monday.
    Of course. But I said, right now I'll take any goodish news wherever. Otherwise the outlook is unremittingly grim
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    Andy_JS said:

    (£)

    "How closely linked are lockdown and Brexit? | The Spectator
    Patrick West

    Once upon a time, a long time ago, this country was consumed by the matter of Brexit. Everywhere you turned, in every medium, even among friends and colleagues, you couldn't get away from the subject: everyone was talking about Brexit. We were obsessed by it. From 2016 to 2019 there was no escape.

    All of this changed this year. With the pandemic, the rancorous matter of Brexit vanished, or at least stopped becoming the emotive, divisive matter of primary concern. It has been relegated to a pedestrian news story about trading rights. In the year of the coronavirus and all its horrors, paranoia and despair, Brexit has become a sideshow. Right?

    Wrong. While the clamorous conflict between Leavers and Remainers has ostensibly ceased, in our collective subconscious the same cleavage in our society remains – only the subject matter has changed. As you may have concluded from newspapers and your social media feed, Remainer and Leave camps have merely metamorphosed into pro-lockdown and anti-lockdown tribes."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-closely-linked-are-lockdown-and-brexit-

    Strangely enough just spent an hour chatting to a bloke I haven't seen since before lockdown.
    He was an extreme Remainer and told everyone so.
    Turns out he's now a ferocious anti-lockdowner. And is equally forthcoming in his views.
  • Looks like England are going to try and park the bus against Belgium..5 at the back and 2 defensive midfielders and no Kane or Sancho.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Benelux is in bad shape

    New cases in the Netherlands: 6,350

    Belgium: 7,950 - exploding
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,170
    eristdoof said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Nadal has taken the first set 6-0 vs Djokovic in the French Open final.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/50283761

    Best ever clay court player....not even close.
    I find it peculiar how he can be so very dominant on clay. I mean, he's no slouch on other surfaces, but no one can get close to him on clay. What about his style of play makes the difference on clay more than anything else, that no one can adapt to?
    clay slows the ball to the extent that the best touch tennis player wins I suppose . Negates the big serving which is a separate skill in itself.
    Actually, I think clay favours big hitters in terms of ground shots. Henman didn't have a huge serve, but his touch at the net meant he could compete on the grass at Wimbledon. Although, oddly, I actually think his best chance to win a slam was the 04 French.

    Sadly, Wimbledon doesn't play like it did pre-2002. The ball bounces more than it used to which means the baseline bashers don't have to adapt their game. One thing Federer has that Nadal and Djokovic don't is that he beat Sampras at Wimbledon.
    I think that last comment is a bit unfair, given neither Nadal nor Djokovic were playing grand slam competitions when Sampras retired, so they never had a chance to beat him at Wimbledon. What is remarkable about Federer is how he is still able to play top level singles tennis in his late thirties.
    It is and it isn’t. Federer’s record needs to be viewed in the context of what he faced as a youngster. In 2001, he beat Sampras and then lost to Henman. That’s what Wimbledon used to be like.
  • Nigelb said:

    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456

    Somebody needs to show that to Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock, and Dido Harding.
  • Interesting that this proposed EFL reform includes guarantee that games would only be played at weekends.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664

    https://twitter.com/jimmcmanusph/status/1315238738872524800

    Note how a working test and trace is important. Then look at the UK and the shambles that Harding and Hancock are running.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456

    What does it say about our society and education system that anyone feels the need to explain this? I mean, isn't this obvious?
    I refer you to @TSE ‘s reply. :smile:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    Who knows.

    Possibly they don't trust the government not to actually shut the shops.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,607

    Nigelb said:

    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456

    Well we have 5 out of 7. a 70% plus healthy pass in examination terms.

    We just fail on those minor issues of fast sensitive testing and contact tracing.
    The point of the Swiss Cheese model is that provided more than 1 layer is present, it can be quite effective infection reduction without all 7 layers.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2020

    Interesting that this proposed EFL reform includes guarantee that games would only be played at weekends.

    How?

    There's 46 EFL League games per season, plus FA Cup too, plus play offs. How can you fit that solely into weekends?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664

    Nigelb said:

    This is a pretty good thread for thinking about policy responses to Covid.

    https://twitter.com/NAChristakis/status/1315286236907667456

    Somebody needs to show that to Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock, and Dido Harding.
    The UK contact tracing slice of swiss cheese is actually just one large hole.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    Another nail in Lindsey Graham’s political coffin ?

    Jaime Harrison sets Senate fundraising record with $57 million haul in South Carolina
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/520517-jaime-harrison-sets-senate-fundraising-record-with-57-million-haul
  • nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
  • Interesting that this proposed EFL reform includes guarantee that games would only be played at weekends.

    How?

    There's 46 EFL League games per season, plus FA Cup too, plus play offs. How can you fit that solely into weekends?
    Sorry i meant to say EPL games.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2020
    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    More likely their habituated response to any sort of difficulty is to go out and spend money as a coping mechanism.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,870

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    Three surely?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    How to completely wipe out an economy.
  • Roger said:

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    Three surely?
    As my girlfriend will tell you, Salford is not Manchester.
  • Nigelb said:

    Another nail in Lindsey Graham’s political coffin ?

    Jaime Harrison sets Senate fundraising record with $57 million haul in South Carolina
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/520517-jaime-harrison-sets-senate-fundraising-record-with-57-million-haul

    "Karma is only a bitch if you are"

    I find it really hard to believe Graham could actually lose but it would be very karmic justice if he does.
  • nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    How to completely wipe out an economy.
    It has already wiped out Manchester's vibrant music, clubs, and theatre economy.

    I thought when Jilly's became a Tesco express was heartbreaking, but this is on a whole new level.
  • FFS he's only going to get worse.

    That it makes you immune will be news to the increasing number of people who have caught the virus twice.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    The most important slide you'll see all day. Ask your MP to take a good look at it and then get into the chamber tomorrow and start asking some bloody hard questions of this administration.

    https://twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1315301410255310849/photo/2
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    How to completely wipe out an economy.
    Indeed. If big cities like Manc really do get a 6 month total lockdown then the UK will go bust
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664

    FFS he's only going to get worse.

    That it makes you immune will be news to the increasing number of people who have caught the virus twice.
    Who would be his doctor? I guess the money is good.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    How to completely wipe out an economy.
    It has already wiped out Manchester's vibrant music, clubs, and theatre economy.

    I thought when Jilly's became a Tesco express was heartbreaking, but this is on a whole new level.
    Levelling up seems to have morphed into raze the whole of the North to the ground.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,029
    LadyG said:

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    How to completely wipe out an economy.
    Indeed. If big cities like Manc really do get a 6 month total lockdown then the UK will go bust
    I doubt it because people simply wouldn't obey.
  • MaxPB said:

    LadyG said:

    12,872 new cases.

    Incoming twattish journos with cases down x% (or do they only do that when it is a daily increase).

    Well we must take any good (ish) news that we can. A few days ago it looked like we might be exploding just like France (they had an incredible 26,000 new cases yesterday). Perhaps, just perhaps, the 10pm curfews and so on are slowing it down. Inshallah!!
    Weekend, let's see what it is on Monday.
    Tuesday surely?

    Monday still has a lagged weekend effect. Tuesday is generally the day everyone suddenly is horrified.

    And more that six months into the pandemic it would be nice if the media would eventually start reporting numbers versus same day last week and not versus yesterday.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,409
    Good. He'll be fit enough to stand trial after the three Democratic landslides; POTUS, Senate and House.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    LadyG said:

    nichomar said:

    What is wrong with people, since when were shops closing or is it they think they won’t be able to go to the Trafford Centre?
    They expect lockdown 2 to last six months and all the non essential shops to close.

    Manchester is plague central at the moment with the two unis.
    How to completely wipe out an economy.
    Indeed. If big cities like Manc really do get a 6 month total lockdown then the UK will go bust
    I would assume/hope that Sunak will walk from Cabinet before supporting a six month lockdown. He can rally the resistance from the back benches.
  • ydoethur said:

    Shaun Murphy (snooker)attempted to qualify for the Open golf one year I think

    We were talking about sports.
    A whole new debate that one!
    Chess players say Hi!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,086
    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Be interesting to see Biden's proposals on "ending the pandemic". Likewise his ideas for cancelling winter, and shifting the orbit of the Moon

    Has Biden ever had any ideas beyond plagiarising Neil Kinnock ?
    The Trumpers sound very downcast. Remember, Trump hasn't lost yet, by fair means or foul.
    Perhaps you should be more accurate with your claims of Trumpers.

    Still I see you can't disagree with the point I made.

    Don't you think its a bit disappointing that Joe Biden is the best that the Democrats can come up with ?

    Even at his peak Biden was viewed far behind the likes of Clinton, Gore, Dukakis and Gephardt.
    Since Trump's Covid episode I have looked at Biden in some detail. I have watched his speeches and some interviews.

    I was taken in by the Sleepy Joe notion created by Trump. The presentation of Biden's speeches (presumably written by speech writers- with a nod to Neil Kinnock!) are OK. He is no Obama or Bill Clinton, but he can hold his own.
    No, its just an indication of how far things have fallen that a life long politician can read a speech is taken as he is doing well.

    He was crap at the debate, it is just he was up against somebody who came across even worse.
    Joe wouldn't be my choice as I have said down thread. We are where we are however.
    Biden has cost me a little bit in confounding expectations. I'm baffled in that to my mind he was the only Democratic candidate that was worse than Trump. I still think he is worse than Trump.


    There's an interesting counterfactual about what would have happened if Michael Bloomberg had not spent a few hundred million driving down the poll shares of the other centrist candidates.
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