I am a health care professional, interested in current affairs and I have long since lost track.
I am just doing what seems sensible now, and discrete.
If I have understood it correctly (big if), in the NE you can go to the pub but you can't meet anyone from another household there.
What actual planet do these people live on?
My difficulty with that is the definition of "meet". If it's "be close to", then indoors pubs mostly won't work like that. If it's "sit together for a significant period" then it's easy to avoid, but may not be enough for health purposes. Either way, I would like Ministers to define precisely (a) what is illegal and will get me fined (b) what is legal but thought unwise and (c) what is seen as unproblematic. I'd be fine with them spending public money to send everyone a guide on that.
The worry is that because Ministers seem at sea over the detail and the medias love gotcha moments, the perception is that the rules are messy and unclear. And that IS objectively stupid and not in anyone's interest at all.
The other problem is the constant changes to the rules. Something the Italian and Swedish governments do better on is having rules that stay the same for long periods.
Telling people to “look at websites” also isn’t helpful when, as I think somebody pointed out on here the other day, a large number of government websites aren’t being updated in a timely fashion and are being left with inaccurate information.
If it was all just guidance these questions wouldn’t matter - the Govt would be perfectly justified in responding - “if you are confused apply common sense and err on the side of caution”.
But it’s not it’s the law, backed up by significant potential penalties for non compliance.
What’s more, understanding the anomalies matters, because in many cases they are deliberate under the policy of “trade offs” ie. clamp down hard on virus spreading activities to allow some leniency in activities which help businesses and the economy, children’s’ education etc. We are allowed to go to pubs and restaurants because, ultimately the Govt wants pubs and restaurants to remain viable businesses. So knowing what we can do in them matters. We are under no responsibility nor encouragement, if we are not sure, to just stay at home.
People should look at their local authority web site for the details as they are specific to that area
Problem for Trump is that the context has changed since 2016. Then he was able to play the aggressive challenger to the same old same old machine politicians, Republican as well as Democrat and kick ass because people feel that America is going in the wrong direction. America is now going in a much wronger direction, which seems to have a lot to do with Trump.
If you are one of a majority disgusted by the debate last night there is one simple thing you can do to make that sort of thing go away: Vote Biden. He doesn't have to be any good at being president.
Biden said something like that. Vote and this will go away he said , pointing at Trump who was acting like a poop-throwing toddler. I love that phrase.
Tickles me how few people realise the car industry as we know it is already dead, particularly the cross border supply chains for a technology that will be phased out completely in short order.
Yes, but where are the new car and battery plants being built ? Not here.
The new electric Jaguar XJ is going to be built in the UK. I mean, it'll be fucking garbage but it'll be built in the UK.
True, but not exactly mass market. A few years time, our car industry could easily be a fraction of its current size.
Really quite scary for the North East. I hope the government doesn’t underestimate how important the Sunderland factory is for the entire region.
Well, they were warned, but voted for Brexit anyway. I have limited sympathy.
Plenty of people in Sunderland and the wider North East voted to stay in the EU...
I know. Even in the most purple bits of Leaverstan about a third voted Remain.
But overall the region voted to Leave and then swing Blue to "Get Brexit Done". There is only so much you can do when people repeatedly vote for deliberate self harm.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
That's a large part of the problem. The rules are literally all over the place, because they've been so badly planned.
I don't particularly blame Johnson, Sharma or anyone else for not knowing the rules. I do blame those in charge for making the tapestry of rules so complex and ever-changing.
I am a health care professional, interested in current affairs and I have long since lost track.
I am just doing what seems sensible now, and discrete.
If I have understood it correctly (big if), in the NE you can go to the pub but you can't meet anyone from another household there.
What actual planet do these people live on?
My difficulty with that is the definition of "meet". If it's "be close to", then indoors pubs mostly won't work like that. If it's "sit together for a significant period" then it's easy to avoid, but may not be enough for health purposes. Either way, I would like Ministers to define precisely (a) what is illegal and will get me fined (b) what is legal but thought unwise and (c) what is seen as unproblematic. I'd be fine with them spending public money to send everyone a guide on that.
The worry is that because Ministers seem at sea over the detail and the medias love gotcha moments, the perception is that the rules are messy and unclear. And that IS objectively stupid and not in anyone's interest at all.
The other problem is the constant changes to the rules. Something the Italian and Swedish governments do better on is having rules that stay the same for long periods.
Telling people to “look at websites” also isn’t helpful when, as I think somebody pointed out on here the other day, a large number of government websites aren’t being updated in a timely fashion and are being left with inaccurate information.
If it was all just guidance these questions wouldn’t matter - the Govt would be perfectly justified in responding - “if you are confused apply common sense and err on the side of caution”.
But it’s not it’s the law, backed up by significant potential penalties for non compliance.
What’s more, understanding the anomalies matters, because in many cases they are deliberate under the policy of “trade offs” ie. clamp down hard on virus spreading activities to allow some leniency in activities which help businesses and the economy, children’s’ education etc. We are allowed to go to pubs and restaurants because, ultimately the Govt wants pubs and restaurants to remain viable businesses. So knowing what we can do in them matters. We are under no responsibility nor encouragement, if we are not sure, to just stay at home.
People should look at their local authority web site for the details as they are specific to that area
They should; but as a relative of mine in NE England commented, Northumberland CC was not being given information fully or quickly enough by the English Gmt for them to be able to provide full info even before the start of the rsestrictions.
In South Wales it seemed to begin with holiday makers importing the virus back from the greek islands.
My sources told me in early August that the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend was all set for an increased workload three weeks after the schools went back, and here we are three weeks after the schools went back...
Not that I am advocating shutting schools, just saying.
Are South Walians wilder on holiday than others ?
It seems to be Wales, Lancashire and the NE where infection is now in the general community.
With infection in the rest of the country concentrated only in student and Asian areas.
The criticism in Wales is whole counties are in lock down with the exception of Llanelli which is an isolated area within the currently otherwise free Carmarthenshire, rather than just hot spots.
Drakeford has been more forthright (draconian, if you like) than Boris, and as the figures go up exponentially he is closing places down without fear. Labour might get a good spanking in next years elections, but Drakeford seems not to care.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
Thanks. And Mr G. Clearly it's fine to go to Anglesey, but only by boat, or (possibly) light aircraft. As a thought, what about the Irish lorries the arrive at Holyhead? Or will until 31st Dec?
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Fairly sure they can drive through. We drove along the M4 last week to Pembrokeshire through regions you are not supposed to leave/enter. Travelling through is surely a valid reason
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
I was just stating a fact, what has materially changed in Wales in the last month in Covid prevention. The only thing is mask wearing in shops. Since then infection rates have increased markedly and most of the Country is in some form of lockdown. yet i am considered not logical for thinking there may be a connection.
Tickles me how few people realise the car industry as we know it is already dead, particularly the cross border supply chains for a technology that will be phased out completely in short order.
Yes, but where are the new car and battery plants being built ? Not here.
The new electric Jaguar XJ is going to be built in the UK. I mean, it'll be fucking garbage but it'll be built in the UK.
True, but not exactly mass market. A few years time, our car industry could easily be a fraction of its current size.
Really quite scary for the North East. I hope the government doesn’t underestimate how important the Sunderland factory is for the entire region.
Well, they were warned, but voted for Brexit anyway. I have limited sympathy.
Plenty of people in Sunderland and the wider North East voted to stay in the EU...
I know. Even in the most purple bits of Leaverstan about a third voted Remain.
But overall the region voted to Leave and then swing Blue to "Get Brexit Done". There is only so much you can do when people repeatedly vote for deliberate self harm.
I've tried to explain to @HYUFD before that leave voters in the NE believed the Leave campaign when they were told that suggestions that, amongst other things, Nissan would be negatively impacted by Brexit were lies and project fear. The fact is that leave voters voted for a better life, not simply "control of laws, money, fish" in the abstract.
His response was that basically it doesn't matter if the small factory in Labour voting Sunderland closed down because it's their own fault for voting Leave. Essentially exactly what you are saying.
He also, knowing nothing about the region whatsoever, seemed to think that workers in the Nissan factory and its supply chain only live in Labour voting constituencies. I hope the Government knows the facts in this regard.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
That's a large part of the problem. The rules are literally all over the place, because they've been so badly planned.
I don't particularly blame Johnson, Sharma or anyone else for not knowing the rules. I do blame those in charge for making the tapestry of rules so complex and ever-changing.
Three Word Slogan. Keep It Simple.
As it is on Johnson's watch, the buck stops with him. Fair or otherwise.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
The polling suggests Biden won the debate on a least-bad basis. I wonder whether Trump's strategy is voter suppression - depress turnout to the point that the true enthusiasts dominate. Clearly Trump has more zealots than Biden. But negative reactions are important in politics too, and I think the anti-Trump vote is as motivated as the pro-Trump vote (as the WP said, it's got to the point where many people would vote for almost anyone at all except Trump).
The eternal dilemma with Trump is whether there's a cunning, evil strategy or whether it's just a confused angry old man acting confused and angry, and I can see the tactical case for constantly heckling Biden to prevent him from delivering a scripted line. But once you're getting into arguments with the Fox News moderator, I really don't believe it's strategy.
Sometimes when someone looks like they're losing, it's because they're losing.
I certainly think it was a deliberate strategy from Trump to prevent any sort of rational debate on the issues. In that he succeeded but he went over the top and did himself no favours whatsoever in the process.
Even before the debate happened I didn't believe it would tell us anything. A debate requires at least some acknowledgement of the basic facts on both sides. How do you debate anything with a man who simply calls any inconvenient fact "fake news"? I have just finished reading Bob Woodward's "Rage" and what comes across on very page is that Trump just lies about just about everything.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
But she is not in government, so it is not as important that she is as clueless as. Johnson, Keegan and Sharma not understanding what is going on is far more worrying.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
If Nandy was a government minister, responsible and accountable for a law that impacts the civil liberties of millions, I would expect her to know the law and explain why the measures were necessary. That would doubly be the case if she opted to go on to a national news programme at the moment the laws we’re coming into effect.
This is not hard or controversial.
So if you are an opposition mp advising your constituents you do not need to be over the detail
If we are being honest the details are complex and variable depending where you live in the UK with lots of anomalies
It is true however, that the individual area requirements are laid out in detail on the local authorities website sites for reference
Nice whataboutery. Let’s start with the basics. Should government ministers be able to understand and explain the laws they are making when they interrupt the civil liberties of millions?
Simple question.
No. The MOT test is an infringement of my right to do as I like with my own property. Do you expect the PM to know off the top of his head the revised limit on the headlamp aim test for pre-2014 registrations?
That’s a really weak argument. Well done. Citizens are supposed to follow the rules directly. MOT testers are trained to test regulations.
This is not some arcane point of detail, but a restriction of civil liberties impacting millions.
So, what's the permitted tyre tread depth? No looking up, no conferring. Not (just) an MOT item, applies every time you drive.
When you’re in a whole stop digging.
FWIW I think is 1.6mm, but you really shouldn’t go that low. A motorist should know that. Government ministers should know their policy.
I feel more in a bit part. This is major fustian about merely detail stuff.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Fairly sure they can drive through. We drove along the M4 last week to Pembrokeshire through regions you are not supposed to leave/enter. Travelling through is surely a valid reason
That was more or less what was said on 5Live last night. I presume the part of Lancashire they are travelling from is not banning travel.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
That EU decision is just as likely to result in significant onshoring of capability in the UK for the domestic and high-end export market whilst being less good for the mass-export market to the EU, which is more globally incestuous and relies on lower margins and effeciencies of scale worldwide.
Funny the detractors don't point this out like the PWC report did but Faisal gonna Faisal.
There will be onshoring both ways. Nevertheless, the EU does have two advantages over the UK in that game.
It can get to minimum content thresholds much easier than the UK because it has a bigger supply base to source from. It is already at threshold for most current cars. Secondly it will probably be easier to sell cars into the UK with tariffs than the other way round. The UK will probably become a less efficient market after Brexit (particularly if it localises supply), which makes it easier for foreign suppliers to eat the tariffs within their margins. The same doesn't apply in reverse where more competitive pricing makes tariffs unaffordable. If you need the European market for scale, cars won't be produced in the UK for local or foreign consumption. This has already happened in Australia, which no longer has domestic car production.
The EU position is normal FTA by the way. The UK is asking for unusual cumulation rules for content. The unique thing is a country that chooses to move from close integration to normal integration.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Ohter way round to be fair to Mr Drakeford - HYUFD's tanks are strictly English (or "British") Tory panzers.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
But she is not in government, so it is not as important that she is as clueless as. Johnson, Keegan and Sharma not understanding what is going on is far more worrying.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
If Nandy was a government minister, responsible and accountable for a law that impacts the civil liberties of millions, I would expect her to know the law and explain why the measures were necessary. That would doubly be the case if she opted to go on to a national news programme at the moment the laws we’re coming into effect.
This is not hard or controversial.
So if you are an opposition mp advising your constituents you do not need to be over the detail
If we are being honest the details are complex and variable depending where you live in the UK with lots of anomalies
It is true however, that the individual area requirements are laid out in detail on the local authorities website sites for reference
Nice whataboutery. Let’s start with the basics. Should government ministers be able to understand and explain the laws they are making when they interrupt the civil liberties of millions?
Simple question.
No. The MOT test is an infringement of my right to do as I like with my own property. Do you expect the PM to know off the top of his head the revised limit on the headlamp aim test for pre-2014 registrations?
That’s a really weak argument. Well done. Citizens are supposed to follow the rules directly. MOT testers are trained to test regulations.
This is not some arcane point of detail, but a restriction of civil liberties impacting millions.
So, what's the permitted tyre tread depth? No looking up, no conferring. Not (just) an MOT item, applies every time you drive.
When you’re in a whole stop digging.
FWIW I think is 1.6mm, but you really shouldn’t go that low. A motorist should know that. Government ministers should know their policy.
I feel more in a bit part. This is major fustian about merely detail stuff.
Not sure I can agree that denying the civil liberties of millions is mere detail,but 🤷♂️
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
He believes that wearing masks makes people have a false illusion of safety and thus get far closer than 2m - essentially ignoring the two metre rules. He also believes that people have poor mask etiquette (taking them on and off without care to clean or sterilise hands etc). In my opinion he is probably wrong, but its very hard to prove in a rigorous scientific study.
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
I was just stating a fact, what has materially changed in Wales in the last month in Covid prevention. The only thing is mask wearing in shops. Since then infection rates have increased markedly and most of the Country is in some form of lockdown. yet i am considered not logical for thinking there may be a connection.
Occam`s Razor? Schools going back and some people returning to work.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
We all do but there is a pandemic right now. If you're going to do that perhaps don't do it on campus if the university want the guidelines following on their property?
The common factor is poorer people and housing density surely.
I think it is more than that
Lack of social distancing and irresponsible behaviour plays a big part
There's always a tendency to blame people because we want to have someone to blame. An example: a friend's husband and kids tested positive for Covid, now all the parents at her daughter's school are blaming her family for the whole year group getting sent home. All kinds of stories are circulating about how they caught it on holiday or didn't quarantine, all of which are untrue. The reality is her husband is a police officer and caught it at work, protecting the community.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
To be fair to the Americans, at least they got their version of Boris to turn up. In our country we've had, what, one and a half general elections with debates?
Thats one reason that Johnson will go before the next election. He cannot avoid debates again, and he has brown trousers about facing Starmer.
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
He believes that wearing masks makes people have a false illusion of safety and thus get far closer than 2m - essentially ignoring the two metre rules. He also believes that people have poor mask etiquette (taking them on and off without care to clean or sterilise hands etc). In my opinion he is probably wrong, but its very hard to prove in a rigorous scientific study.
There should be five levels of restrictions deployable across the country from total to none. Each level clearly explained, understood and the penalties known. Then you can move between the levels depending on the circumstances. The mess created by these multitude of different regulations by council area will result in them not being followed.
That's the system in Ireland. The Irish Times produced a handy summary of all the variations in one chart.
Then the first time the government moved a county from level 2, they did so to level 3+, with some of the restrictions from level 4 (or 5) and some outside the system altogether.
And the second time they moved a county up from level 2, they did the same, only differently, with a different set of "3+" restrictions.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
But she is not in government, so it is not as important that she is as clueless as. Johnson, Keegan and Sharma not understanding what is going on is far more worrying.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
If Nandy was a government minister, responsible and accountable for a law that impacts the civil liberties of millions, I would expect her to know the law and explain why the measures were necessary. That would doubly be the case if she opted to go on to a national news programme at the moment the laws we’re coming into effect.
This is not hard or controversial.
So if you are an opposition mp advising your constituents you do not need to be over the detail
If we are being honest the details are complex and variable depending where you live in the UK with lots of anomalies
It is true however, that the individual area requirements are laid out in detail on the local authorities website sites for reference
Nice whataboutery. Let’s start with the basics. Should government ministers be able to understand and explain the laws they are making when they interrupt the civil liberties of millions?
Simple question.
No. The MOT test is an infringement of my right to do as I like with my own property. Do you expect the PM to know off the top of his head the revised limit on the headlamp aim test for pre-2014 registrations?
That’s a really weak argument. Well done. Citizens are supposed to follow the rules directly. MOT testers are trained to test regulations.
This is not some arcane point of detail, but a restriction of civil liberties impacting millions.
So, what's the permitted tyre tread depth? No looking up, no conferring. Not (just) an MOT item, applies every time you drive.
1.6mm with 3mm advised? IIRC.
Just saw your news - congrats. Long may it last and hope you build your strength up quickly.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
Thanks. And Mr G. Clearly it's fine to go to Anglesey, but only by boat, or (possibly) light aircraft. As a thought, what about the Irish lorries the arrive at Holyhead? Or will until 31st Dec?
I expect the way Drakeford is behaving all of Wales will be in lockdown very soon
The lorries will be OK as they will be deemed to be working
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
You aren't allowed to even talk to anyone? That's ridiculous.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
Not yet in South Wales it isn't. I will keep you posted if that changes.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
We all do but there is a pandemic right now. If you're going to do that perhaps don't do it on campus if the university want the guidelines following on their property?
It doesn't matter if we're on campus or not. For your information, "outside the building" is just the city centre of Newcastle. The university rules still stand.
I'm sure you'd be happy if you were threatened with the sack if you spoke to any of your colleagues at work, even at an appropriate distance.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
But she is not in government, so it is not as important that she is as clueless as. Johnson, Keegan and Sharma not understanding what is going on is far more worrying.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
If Nandy was a government minister, responsible and accountable for a law that impacts the civil liberties of millions, I would expect her to know the law and explain why the measures were necessary. That would doubly be the case if she opted to go on to a national news programme at the moment the laws we’re coming into effect.
This is not hard or controversial.
So if you are an opposition mp advising your constituents you do not need to be over the detail
If we are being honest the details are complex and variable depending where you live in the UK with lots of anomalies
It is true however, that the individual area requirements are laid out in detail on the local authorities website sites for reference
Nice whataboutery. Let’s start with the basics. Should government ministers be able to understand and explain the laws they are making when they interrupt the civil liberties of millions?
Simple question.
No. The MOT test is an infringement of my right to do as I like with my own property. Do you expect the PM to know off the top of his head the revised limit on the headlamp aim test for pre-2014 registrations?
That’s a really weak argument. Well done. Citizens are supposed to follow the rules directly. MOT testers are trained to test regulations.
This is not some arcane point of detail, but a restriction of civil liberties impacting millions.
So, what's the permitted tyre tread depth? No looking up, no conferring. Not (just) an MOT item, applies every time you drive.
When you’re in a whole stop digging.
FWIW I think is 1.6mm, but you really shouldn’t go that low. A motorist should know that. Government ministers should know their policy.
I feel more in a bit part. This is major fustian about merely detail stuff.
Not sure I can agree that denying the civil liberties of millions is mere detail,but 🤷♂️
Fustian. All laws are limits on liberty. Fine tuning who you can talk to in the Pig and Ferret in Sunderland is not indefinite imprisonment without trial.
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
I was just stating a fact, what has materially changed in Wales in the last month in Covid prevention. The only thing is mask wearing in shops. Since then infection rates have increased markedly and most of the Country is in some form of lockdown. yet i am considered not logical for thinking there may be a connection.
Occam`s Razor? Schools going back and some people returning to work.
Plus North Wales is very close to Northwest England. Its not exactly a long hop from Manchester to Merseyside to Chester to Wrexham.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that it is fecking ridiculous and unnecessary. Outdoor socialising is massively less risky than indoors and if you are going to allow indoor mixing between households in offices, schools and universities then not allowing outdoor mixing makes absolutely no sense at all.
I have supported the Government for much of this pandemic and I take the whole thing very seriously. But the Government is turning the whole thing into a joke through utter ineptitude. If laws clearly don't make sense then they become counterproductive.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
We all do but there is a pandemic right now. If you're going to do that perhaps don't do it on campus if the university want the guidelines following on their property?
It doesn't matter if we're on campus or not. For your information, "outside the building" is just the city centre of Newcastle. The university rules still stand.
I'm sure you'd be happy if you were threatened with the sack if you spoke to any of your colleagues at work, even at an appropriate distance.
If my employer said not to at work then I wouldn't, even if I don't like it.
I'm not defending the rules but if they're being clear about them then that's better than being unclear and taking draconian actions against someone having been unclear previously.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
You aren't allowed to even talk to anyone? That's ridiculous.
Well it depends what the definition of "socialise" is. It's not the law, but government guidelines in the North East state that we should not socialise with anyone outside our household, even outside.
The university has repeatedly sent us emails saying if we are caught breaching both the law AND the guidelines, we risk being thrown off our course.
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
I was just stating a fact, what has materially changed in Wales in the last month in Covid prevention. The only thing is mask wearing in shops. Since then infection rates have increased markedly and most of the Country is in some form of lockdown. yet i am considered not logical for thinking there may be a connection.
Time has not passed? Schools have not gone back? Summer has not become autumn?
Chili: So what're you tellin' me, you're never gonna go to sleep again? Tommy: No, I said I'm never goin' to bed. There's a difference. See, the article says most people die in their beds. I figure long as I stay outta bed, I'm safe.
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
He believes that wearing masks makes people have a false illusion of safety and thus get far closer than 2m - essentially ignoring the two metre rules. He also believes that people have poor mask etiquette (taking them on and off without care to clean or sterilise hands etc). In my opinion he is probably wrong, but its very hard to prove in a rigorous scientific study.
What would be great to shut me up would be a country in Europe that from 2 weeks after the date mask wearing in public was introduced showed a marked reduction in Covid cases. All I can find is that as soon as mask wearing is introduced cases rise rapidly. Wales is the latest example.
Clearly a Laboratory study will show that if you sneeze with a mask on less spit is projected into the air. I don't see how that proves if they are effective in general day to day use. The evidence from the increase in cases in Country after Country hardly makes you think they work well.
Look at the UK in March, the Government started telling people to wash their hands and socially distance. Within 2 weeks of this advice the R rate was below 1. There is no evidence that masks do anything.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Fairly sure they can drive through. We drove along the M4 last week to Pembrokeshire through regions you are not supposed to leave/enter. Travelling through is surely a valid reason
That was more or less what was said on 5Live last night. I presume the part of Lancashire they are travelling from is not banning travel.
Not as far as I know; we're not planning to go to see them. Just wondered.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Fairly sure they can drive through. We drove along the M4 last week to Pembrokeshire through regions you are not supposed to leave/enter. Travelling through is surely a valid reason
From 6.00pm tonight you cannot drive through Conwy or the North Wales border authorities
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
We all do but there is a pandemic right now. If you're going to do that perhaps don't do it on campus if the university want the guidelines following on their property?
It doesn't matter if we're on campus or not. For your information, "outside the building" is just the city centre of Newcastle. The university rules still stand.
I'm sure you'd be happy if you were threatened with the sack if you spoke to any of your colleagues at work, even at an appropriate distance.
If my employer said not to at work then I wouldn't, even if I don't like it.
I'm not defending the rules but if they're being clear about them then that's better than being unclear and taking draconian actions against someone having been unclear previously.
I'm not saying I will. I'm saying I don't like it - just like you are.
However would you be happy being sacked if you met up with a few mates in the park for a walk, which is not against the law?
FYI this is a criticism of the university, not the government.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that it is fecking ridiculous and unnecessary. Outdoor socialising is massively less risky than indoors and if you are going to allow indoor mixing between households in offices, schools and universities then not allowing outdoor mixing makes absolutely no sense at all.
I have supported the Government for much of this pandemic and I take the whole thing very seriously. But the Government is turning the whole thing into a joke through utter ineptitude. If laws clearly don't make sense then they become counterproductive.
If mixing were being encouraged absolutely, though I may be wrong but I believe the guidance is that in the Northeast where Gallowgate is there isn't supposed to be either indoor or outdoor mixing?
Gallowgate said that inside they were required to wear a mask at all times and sit 2 metres away, so no indoor mixing from that.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
You aren't allowed to even talk to anyone? That's ridiculous.
Well it depends what the definition of "socialise" is. It's not the law, but government guidelines in the North East state that we should not socialise with anyone outside our household, even outside.
The university has repeatedly sent us emails saying if we are caught breaching both the law AND the guidelines, we risk being thrown off our course.
I'd ask the university for clarification if that does mean an instant ejection if you even talk to someone else. That just seems over the top.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Off Topic, but for BigG only.
Someone sent me a picture of tanks on a bridge. Purporting to be Loughour Bridge. For anyone who knows Wales. Swansea people (Jacks) hate Llanelli people (Turks). The caption read something like "keep the Turks out of Swansea, Jack lives matter"!
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Ohter way round to be fair to Mr Drakeford - HYUFD's tanks are strictly English (or "British") Tory panzers.
In case you do not know Wales is very much part of the UK and British
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
Because the new laws are fucking stupid. Its so dangerous for Gallowgate to stand and chat outdoors with the people he's spent hours in a room with that he faces a fine. My kids spend all day squashed together in a classroom but if they meet up in the park after school they're dangerous and illegal.
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
He believes that wearing masks makes people have a false illusion of safety and thus get far closer than 2m - essentially ignoring the two metre rules. He also believes that people have poor mask etiquette (taking them on and off without care to clean or sterilise hands etc). In my opinion he is probably wrong, but its very hard to prove in a rigorous scientific study.
What would be great to shut me up would be a country in Europe that from 2 weeks after the date mask wearing in public was introduced showed a marked reduction in Covid cases. All I can find is that as soon as mask wearing is introduced cases rise rapidly. Wales is the latest example.
Clearly a Laboratory study will show that if you sneeze with a mask on less spit is projected into the air. I don't see how that proves if they are effective in general day to day use. The evidence from the increase in cases in Country after Country hardly makes you think they work well.
Look at the UK in March, the Government started telling people to wash their hands and socially distance. Within 2 weeks of this advice the R rate was below 1. There is no evidence that masks do anything.
Because mask wearing being introduces often comes with a relaxation of other measures. As for washing hands vs social distancing, I suspect the huge drop off in rate had to do with the fact we were all stuck inside and couldn't meet anyone else for weeks on end.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
Because the new laws are fucking stupid. Its so dangerous for Gallowgate to stand and chat outdoors with the people he's spent hours in a room with that he faces a fine. My kids spend all day squashed together in a classroom but if they meet up in the park after school they're dangerous and illegal.
For clarification it is not against the law for me to chat with people outside, merely against the guidelines.
However the university appears to make no distinction. My main gripe is with the university not the government in this particular instance.
The common factor is poorer people and housing density surely.
I think it is more than that
Lack of social distancing and irresponsible behaviour plays a big part
There's always a tendency to blame people because we want to have someone to blame. An example: a friend's husband and kids tested positive for Covid, now all the parents at her daughter's school are blaming her family for the whole year group getting sent home. All kinds of stories are circulating about how they caught it on holiday or didn't quarantine, all of which are untrue. The reality is her husband is a police officer and caught it at work, protecting the community.
I am reminded of when I was involved in anti-headlice campaigns. After a meeting at one school the school nurse and I agreed we were glad there wasn't a pond available, otherwise one mother in particular would have been in it, since she was 'blamed' for the outbreak.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
We all do but there is a pandemic right now. If you're going to do that perhaps don't do it on campus if the university want the guidelines following on their property?
It doesn't matter if we're on campus or not. For your information, "outside the building" is just the city centre of Newcastle. The university rules still stand.
I'm sure you'd be happy if you were threatened with the sack if you spoke to any of your colleagues at work, even at an appropriate distance.
If my employer said not to at work then I wouldn't, even if I don't like it.
I'm not defending the rules but if they're being clear about them then that's better than being unclear and taking draconian actions against someone having been unclear previously.
I'm not saying I will. I'm saying I don't like it - just like you are.
However would you be happy being sacked if you met up with a few mates in the park for a walk, which is not against the law?
FYI this is a criticism of the university, not the government.
Company policies often go above and beyond what the law requires, doesn't mean I like it either. Would I be happy? No. But if they explain in advance what the restrictions are clearly then I would follow them or look for a new employer.
Nandy nails it. It’s sad to see ministers compromise themselves in this way. If the government expects us to do X, then it should know what X is. Especially if it will fine us for not doing it.
This is not hard or controversial.
I very much doubt Nandy knows the specific details of the various lockdowns across the UK
That's a large part of the problem. The rules are literally all over the place, because they've been so badly planned.
I don't particularly blame Johnson, Sharma or anyone else for not knowing the rules. I do blame those in charge for making the tapestry of rules so complex and ever-changing.
Three Word Slogan. Keep It Simple.
As it is on Johnson's watch, the buck stops with him. Fair or otherwise.
I think a big part of the problem is that local authorities are getting to decide what the rules are, and inevitably that leads to differences. Perhaps a better approach would be to have a few gradations of rules (not too many), and allow each authority to choose what level to apply for their current circumstances. Then at least a level 3 in one region would be the same as a level 3 in another region.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
Because the new laws are fucking stupid. Its so dangerous for Gallowgate to stand and chat outdoors with the people he's spent hours in a room with that he faces a fine. My kids spend all day squashed together in a classroom but if they meet up in the park after school they're dangerous and illegal.
He said he had to sit 2 metres apart and with a mask so not exactly squashed together without restrictions?
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Off Topic, but for BigG only.
Someone sent me a picture of tanks on a bridge. Purporting to be Loughour Bridge. For anyone who knows Wales. Swansea people (Jacks) hate Llanelli people (Turks). The caption read something like "keep the Turks out of Swansea, Jack lives matter"!
Britain has offered a three-year transition period for European fishing fleets to allow them to prepare for the post-Brexit changes as part of an 11th-hour deal sweetener.
Lol, an indefinite transition that will last forever.
But we hold all the cards, will Philip and HYUFD now resign from the Tory Party?
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that it is fecking ridiculous and unnecessary. Outdoor socialising is massively less risky than indoors and if you are going to allow indoor mixing between households in offices, schools and universities then not allowing outdoor mixing makes absolutely no sense at all.
I have supported the Government for much of this pandemic and I take the whole thing very seriously. But the Government is turning the whole thing into a joke through utter ineptitude. If laws clearly don't make sense then they become counterproductive.
If mixing were being encouraged absolutely, though I may be wrong but I believe the guidance is that in the Northeast where Gallowgate is there isn't supposed to be either indoor or outdoor mixing?
Gallowgate said that inside they were required to wear a mask at all times and sit 2 metres away, so no indoor mixing from that.
And yet they are allowed to mix in classrooms, workplaces and universities. It is incoherent.
But Donald Trump is the anti-Midas, everything he touches turns to shit, but at least we got a 'There you go again' moment from Joe Biden.
I do think Trump's lack of condemnation of the far right will ensure the Bernie Bros and those on the left unsure about Biden will now actually make sure they vote for Joe Biden.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
We all do but there is a pandemic right now. If you're going to do that perhaps don't do it on campus if the university want the guidelines following on their property?
It doesn't matter if we're on campus or not. For your information, "outside the building" is just the city centre of Newcastle. The university rules still stand.
I'm sure you'd be happy if you were threatened with the sack if you spoke to any of your colleagues at work, even at an appropriate distance.
If my employer said not to at work then I wouldn't, even if I don't like it.
I'm not defending the rules but if they're being clear about them then that's better than being unclear and taking draconian actions against someone having been unclear previously.
I'm not saying I will. I'm saying I don't like it - just like you are.
However would you be happy being sacked if you met up with a few mates in the park for a walk, which is not against the law?
FYI this is a criticism of the university, not the government.
Company policies often go above and beyond what the law requires, doesn't mean I like it either. Would I be happy? No. But if they explain in advance what the restrictions are clearly then I would follow them or look for a new employer.
I can’t look for a “new employer”. I’ve paid my £12,300 now and that’s that.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Fairly sure they can drive through. We drove along the M4 last week to Pembrokeshire through regions you are not supposed to leave/enter. Travelling through is surely a valid reason
From 6.00pm tonight you cannot drive through Conwy or the North Wales border authorities
Not even if you've come directly from Dublin via Holyhead and are heading for Holland via Hull?
Nerys, you need to drop this one. What is the logic behind your belief that masks increase infections?
He believes that wearing masks makes people have a false illusion of safety and thus get far closer than 2m - essentially ignoring the two metre rules. He also believes that people have poor mask etiquette (taking them on and off without care to clean or sterilise hands etc). In my opinion he is probably wrong, but its very hard to prove in a rigorous scientific study.
What would be great to shut me up would be a country in Europe that from 2 weeks after the date mask wearing in public was introduced showed a marked reduction in Covid cases. All I can find is that as soon as mask wearing is introduced cases rise rapidly. Wales is the latest example.
Clearly a Laboratory study will show that if you sneeze with a mask on less spit is projected into the air. I don't see how that proves if they are effective in general day to day use. The evidence from the increase in cases in Country after Country hardly makes you think they work well.
Look at the UK in March, the Government started telling people to wash their hands and socially distance. Within 2 weeks of this advice the R rate was below 1. There is no evidence that masks do anything.
The European poster boy for mask-wearing was the Czech Republic, where it was credited with helping them avoid a large outbreak in the spring.
Britain has offered a three-year transition period for European fishing fleets to allow them to prepare for the post-Brexit changes as part of an 11th-hour deal sweetener.
Lol, an indefinite transition that will last forever.
But we hold all the cards, will Philip and HYUFD now resign from the Tory Party?
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Ohter way round to be fair to Mr Drakeford - HYUFD's tanks are strictly English (or "British") Tory panzers.
In case you do not know Wales is very much part of the UK and British
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that I want to chat to my friends and future colleagues.
You aren't allowed to even talk to anyone? That's ridiculous.
Well it depends what the definition of "socialise" is. It's not the law, but government guidelines in the North East state that we should not socialise with anyone outside our household, even outside.
The university has repeatedly sent us emails saying if we are caught breaching both the law AND the guidelines, we risk being thrown off our course.
The universities are screwed anyway. I see a massive number of law suits heading their way in the not too distant future from students who have been miss-sold courses.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Ohter way round to be fair to Mr Drakeford - HYUFD's tanks are strictly English (or "British") Tory panzers.
In case you do not know Wales is very much part of the UK and British
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
Because the new laws are fucking stupid. Its so dangerous for Gallowgate to stand and chat outdoors with the people he's spent hours in a room with that he faces a fine. My kids spend all day squashed together in a classroom but if they meet up in the park after school they're dangerous and illegal.
He said he had to sit 2 metres apart and with a mask so not exactly squashed together without restrictions?
My kids are squashed together. Their schools are designed to have students sat in clusters. That is contrary to the covid guidelines so tables and seats are now in rows which don't comfortably fit. Teachers have to squeeze round some desks. If those same kids gather in the park later? Dangerous and illegal.
And the NE? Can't meet anyone in your home. But can in the pub. Give over defending this Philip, even ministers have given it up as a bad job.
So today I have my first "face-to-face" lectures. I will be required to wear a mask the entire time and sit 2m away from my fellow students.
However if I chat to my fellow students outside the building afterwards I risk being thrown out of university, as we are required to follow not just the laws, but also the guidelines, that state no outdoor socialising with those outside my household.
Cool.
So don't chat afterwards then. What's the issue?
The issue is that it is fecking ridiculous and unnecessary. Outdoor socialising is massively less risky than indoors and if you are going to allow indoor mixing between households in offices, schools and universities then not allowing outdoor mixing makes absolutely no sense at all.
I have supported the Government for much of this pandemic and I take the whole thing very seriously. But the Government is turning the whole thing into a joke through utter ineptitude. If laws clearly don't make sense then they become counterproductive.
If mixing were being encouraged absolutely, though I may be wrong but I believe the guidance is that in the Northeast where Gallowgate is there isn't supposed to be either indoor or outdoor mixing?
Gallowgate said that inside they were required to wear a mask at all times and sit 2 metres away, so no indoor mixing from that.
And yet they are allowed to mix in classrooms, workplaces and universities. It is incoherent.
I thought he said they're supposed to sit 2 metres apart and with a mask on - is that mixing in your eyes?
Tickles me how few people realise the car industry as we know it is already dead, particularly the cross border supply chains for a technology that will be phased out completely in short order.
Yes, but where are the new car and battery plants being built ? Not here.
The new electric Jaguar XJ is going to be built in the UK. I mean, it'll be fucking garbage but it'll be built in the UK.
True, but not exactly mass market. A few years time, our car industry could easily be a fraction of its current size.
Really quite scary for the North East. I hope the government doesn’t underestimate how important the Sunderland factory is for the entire region.
Well, they were warned, but voted for Brexit anyway. I have limited sympathy.
Plenty of people in Sunderland and the wider North East voted to stay in the EU...
I know. Even in the most purple bits of Leaverstan about a third voted Remain.
But overall the region voted to Leave and then swing Blue to "Get Brexit Done". There is only so much you can do when people repeatedly vote for deliberate self harm.
I've tried to explain to @HYUFD before that leave voters in the NE believed the Leave campaign when they were told that suggestions that, amongst other things, Nissan would be negatively impacted by Brexit were lies and project fear. The fact is that leave voters voted for a better life, not simply "control of laws, money, fish" in the abstract.
His response was that basically it doesn't matter if the small factory in Labour voting Sunderland closed down because it's their own fault for voting Leave. Essentially exactly what you are saying.
He also, knowing nothing about the region whatsoever, seemed to think that workers in the Nissan factory and its supply chain only live in Labour voting constituencies. I hope the Government knows the facts in this regard.
Well, if they didn't know that the factory and its suppliers were at risk in 2016, then they certainly did by Dec 2019, yet swung by some of the biggest margins in the country to "Get Brexit Done" with an explicit policy of no Customs Union.
In the end, you have to allow people agency. They cared more for "Sovereignty" than they did for the Nissan factory.
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Fairly sure they can drive through. We drove along the M4 last week to Pembrokeshire through regions you are not supposed to leave/enter. Travelling through is surely a valid reason
From 6.00pm tonight you cannot drive through Conwy or the North Wales border authorities
Not even if you've come directly from Dublin via Holyhead and are heading for Holland via Hull?
Wondering what historians will call this nationalist, populist Trump/Boris era. Some kind of angry mid life crisis. A spasm of self loathing and self destruction.
So what is Shagger going to announce tonight at the Press Conference? That we should come back to the office and stay at home and don't mix with people and back Britain's boozers?
Tickles me how few people realise the car industry as we know it is already dead, particularly the cross border supply chains for a technology that will be phased out completely in short order.
Yes, but where are the new car and battery plants being built ? Not here.
The new electric Jaguar XJ is going to be built in the UK. I mean, it'll be fucking garbage but it'll be built in the UK.
True, but not exactly mass market. A few years time, our car industry could easily be a fraction of its current size.
Really quite scary for the North East. I hope the government doesn’t underestimate how important the Sunderland factory is for the entire region.
Well, they were warned, but voted for Brexit anyway. I have limited sympathy.
Plenty of people in Sunderland and the wider North East voted to stay in the EU...
I know. Even in the most purple bits of Leaverstan about a third voted Remain.
But overall the region voted to Leave and then swing Blue to "Get Brexit Done". There is only so much you can do when people repeatedly vote for deliberate self harm.
I've tried to explain to @HYUFD before that leave voters in the NE believed the Leave campaign when they were told that suggestions that, amongst other things, Nissan would be negatively impacted by Brexit were lies and project fear. The fact is that leave voters voted for a better life, not simply "control of laws, money, fish" in the abstract.
His response was that basically it doesn't matter if the small factory in Labour voting Sunderland closed down because it's their own fault for voting Leave. Essentially exactly what you are saying.
He also, knowing nothing about the region whatsoever, seemed to think that workers in the Nissan factory and its supply chain only live in Labour voting constituencies. I hope the Government knows the facts in this regard.
Voters in the North East voted Leave and then enough marginal seats in the North East and elsewhere in the country voted Tory on a manifesto of leaving the EU, reclaiming control of our own laws and reclaiming control of our fishing waters.
The Tory government will deliver that manifesto, end of conversation.
Even as you said Nissan is in Sunderland where every seat is still Labour so clearly Sunderland voted for Corbyn and will still vote for Starmer, if Starmer wins on a manifesto of rejoining the EEA next time or an EEA style deal fair enough, that is democracy and he will have a mandate for it. Until 2024 we have a Tory government with a majority of 80 that will deliver the platform it won on
Britain has offered a three-year transition period for European fishing fleets to allow them to prepare for the post-Brexit changes as part of an 11th-hour deal sweetener.
Lol, an indefinite transition that will last forever.
But we hold all the cards, will Philip and HYUFD now resign from the Tory Party?
Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.
If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.
Actually that is the best advice any politician can give
Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary
We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home
My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses
I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy. AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
Exactly
They will not even be able to reach Conwy CBC let alone Anglesey
Do you really want infected people from the North West of England coughing all over you on their way to their North Wales holiday homes?
Of course not but we are now cut off from England and that is going to annoy a lot of people, especially those living near the border
If it means you remain uninfected, I say "annoy away"!
I have not seen Gwent police blocking the Severn Bridges, so I expect, despite what Drakeford has implied, people from Chester can shop in Wrexham, and vice-versa.
Wrexham is absolutely a no go area and as it is virtually on the border I expect we will see police on the border stopping cars yet again
Well I am leaving for Newport now, so I can update you on police presence on the borders of lockdown counties later.
It does not come in until tonight but it will be interesting this weekend
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
Ohter way round to be fair to Mr Drakeford - HYUFD's tanks are strictly English (or "British") Tory panzers.
In case you do not know Wales is very much part of the UK and British
Tickles me how few people realise the car industry as we know it is already dead, particularly the cross border supply chains for a technology that will be phased out completely in short order.
Yes, but where are the new car and battery plants being built ? Not here.
The new electric Jaguar XJ is going to be built in the UK. I mean, it'll be fucking garbage but it'll be built in the UK.
True, but not exactly mass market. A few years time, our car industry could easily be a fraction of its current size.
Really quite scary for the North East. I hope the government doesn’t underestimate how important the Sunderland factory is for the entire region.
Well, they were warned, but voted for Brexit anyway. I have limited sympathy.
Plenty of people in Sunderland and the wider North East voted to stay in the EU...
I know. Even in the most purple bits of Leaverstan about a third voted Remain.
But overall the region voted to Leave and then swing Blue to "Get Brexit Done". There is only so much you can do when people repeatedly vote for deliberate self harm.
I've tried to explain to @HYUFD before that leave voters in the NE believed the Leave campaign when they were told that suggestions that, amongst other things, Nissan would be negatively impacted by Brexit were lies and project fear. The fact is that leave voters voted for a better life, not simply "control of laws, money, fish" in the abstract.
His response was that basically it doesn't matter if the small factory in Labour voting Sunderland closed down because it's their own fault for voting Leave. Essentially exactly what you are saying.
He also, knowing nothing about the region whatsoever, seemed to think that workers in the Nissan factory and its supply chain only live in Labour voting constituencies. I hope the Government knows the facts in this regard.
Voters in the North East voted Leave and then enough marginal seats in the North East and elsewhere in the country voted Tory on a manifesto of leaving the EU, reclaiming control of our own laws and reclaiming control of our fishing waters.
The Tory government will deliver that manifesto, end of conversation.
Even as you said Nissan is in Sunderland where every seat is still Labour so clearly Sunderland voted for Corbyn and will still vote for Starmer, if Starmer wins on a manifesto of rejoining the EEA next time or an EEA style deal fair enough, that is democracy and he will have a mandate for it. Until 2024 we have a Tory government with a majority of 80 that will deliver the platform it won on
You've missed the point by so much, the point is in a different continent to yourself.
Comments
But overall the region voted to Leave and then swing Blue to "Get Brexit Done". There is only so much you can do when people repeatedly vote for deliberate self harm.
I don't particularly blame Johnson, Sharma or anyone else for not knowing the rules. I do blame those in charge for making the tapestry of rules so complex and ever-changing.
Three Word Slogan.
Keep It Simple.
Drakeford has been more forthright (draconian, if you like) than Boris, and as the figures go up exponentially he is closing places down without fear. Labour might get a good spanking in next years elections, but Drakeford seems not to care.
Or will until 31st Dec?
His response was that basically it doesn't matter if the small factory in Labour voting Sunderland closed down because it's their own fault for voting Leave. Essentially exactly what you are saying.
He also, knowing nothing about the region whatsoever, seemed to think that workers in the Nissan factory and its supply chain only live in Labour voting constituencies. I hope the Government knows the facts in this regard.
Even before the debate happened I didn't believe it would tell us anything. A debate requires at least some acknowledgement of the basic facts on both sides. How do you debate anything with a man who simply calls any inconvenient fact "fake news"? I have just finished reading Bob Woodward's "Rage" and what comes across on very page is that Trump just lies about just about everything.
Ah, tittle tattle returns
I hope Drakeford does not do a HYUFD and put tanks on the border !!!!!!
It can get to minimum content thresholds much easier than the UK because it has a bigger supply base to source from. It is already at threshold for most current cars. Secondly it will probably be easier to sell cars into the UK with tariffs than the other way round. The UK will probably become a less efficient market after Brexit (particularly if it localises supply), which makes it easier for foreign suppliers to eat the tariffs within their margins. The same doesn't apply in reverse where more competitive pricing makes tariffs unaffordable. If you need the European market for scale, cars won't be produced in the UK for local or foreign consumption. This has already happened in Australia, which no longer has domestic car production.
The EU position is normal FTA by the way. The UK is asking for unusual cumulation rules for content. The unique thing is a country that chooses to move from close integration to normal integration.
Tories gonna Tory. And win.
Then the first time the government moved a county from level 2, they did so to level 3+, with some of the restrictions from level 4 (or 5) and some outside the system altogether.
And the second time they moved a county up from level 2, they did the same, only differently, with a different set of "3+" restrictions.
The lorries will be OK as they will be deemed to be working
I'm sure you'd be happy if you were threatened with the sack if you spoke to any of your colleagues at work, even at an appropriate distance.
I have supported the Government for much of this pandemic and I take the whole thing very seriously. But the Government is turning the whole thing into a joke through utter ineptitude. If laws clearly don't make sense then they become counterproductive.
I'm not defending the rules but if they're being clear about them then that's better than being unclear and taking draconian actions against someone having been unclear previously.
The university has repeatedly sent us emails saying if we are caught breaching both the law AND the guidelines, we risk being thrown off our course.
Chili: So what're you tellin' me, you're never gonna go to sleep again?
Tommy: No, I said I'm never goin' to bed. There's a difference. See, the article says most people die in their beds. I figure long as I stay outta bed, I'm safe.
Clearly a Laboratory study will show that if you sneeze with a mask on less spit is projected into the air. I don't see how that proves if they are effective in general day to day use. The evidence from the increase in cases in Country after Country hardly makes you think they work well.
Look at the UK in March, the Government started telling people to wash their hands and socially distance. Within 2 weeks of this advice the R rate was below 1. There is no evidence that masks do anything.
However would you be happy being sacked if you met up with a few mates in the park for a walk, which is not against the law?
FYI this is a criticism of the university, not the government.
Gallowgate said that inside they were required to wear a mask at all times and sit 2 metres away, so no indoor mixing from that.
Someone sent me a picture of tanks on a bridge. Purporting to be Loughour Bridge. For anyone who knows Wales. Swansea people (Jacks) hate Llanelli people (Turks). The caption read something like "keep the Turks out of Swansea, Jack lives matter"!
Hat and coat!
The great capitulation begins!
https://twitter.com/GdnPolitics/status/1311225914454208512
However the university appears to make no distinction. My main gripe is with the university not the government in this particular instance.
I am reminded of when I was involved in anti-headlice campaigns. After a meeting at one school the school nurse and I agreed we were glad there wasn't a pond available, otherwise one mother in particular would have been in it, since she was 'blamed' for the outbreak.
https://twitter.com/WalterWhite444/status/1311172672722673665?s=20
I'm just saying that if neither side budged during a negotiation there wouldn't be much point negotiating, would there?
Lol, an indefinite transition that will last forever.
But we hold all the cards, will Philip and HYUFD now resign from the Tory Party?
But Donald Trump is the anti-Midas, everything he touches turns to shit, but at least we got a 'There you go again' moment from Joe Biden.
I do think Trump's lack of condemnation of the far right will ensure the Bernie Bros and those on the left unsure about Biden will now actually make sure they vote for Joe Biden.
If we hold all the cards, why don't we get everything we want?
Does that example not fit your initial condition?
And the NE? Can't meet anyone in your home. But can in the pub. Give over defending this Philip, even ministers have given it up as a bad job.
https://twitter.com/DomWalsh13/status/1311226960580939776?s=20
https://twitter.com/DomWalsh13/status/1311227556511842305?s=20
https://twitter.com/DomWalsh13/status/1311228020494082049?s=20
In the end, you have to allow people agency. They cared more for "Sovereignty" than they did for the Nissan factory.
British Common Sense remember.
The Tory government will deliver that manifesto, end of conversation.
Even as you said Nissan is in Sunderland where every seat is still Labour so clearly Sunderland voted for Corbyn and will still vote for Starmer, if Starmer wins on a manifesto of rejoining the EEA next time or an EEA style deal fair enough, that is democracy and he will have a mandate for it. Until 2024 we have a Tory government with a majority of 80 that will deliver the platform it won on
You do need to reduce your hyperbole
https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1310531559657803776?s=19