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The WH2020 betting edges to Biden after probably the worst TV debate ever – politicalbetting.com

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:
    The Chinese have been doing this for months.
    And we could have set this up over the summer.
    ...Much of our testing capacity is taken up by what is essentially asymptomatic screening, whether it is testing of hospital inpatients and staff, testing in care homes, or lack of triage for members of the public arriving at test centres. At the same time there is no surveillance supporting schools, universities, and businesses as they attempt to return to normal.

    Pooled sampling of what is essentially asymptomatic swabs would allow rolling surveillance programmes in schools, care homes, universities and colleges, and high-risk factory settings without having a major impact on the daily covid-19 test capacity in the UK. These pooled samples could be tested in labs dedicated to pooled sample testing meaning well-established labs would not need to suddenly change or adapt their current automated protocols....
    I see Cambridge University are aiming to test all students weekly, using pooled testing of those who share a kitchen or whatever. It makes sense to do it that way when you expect the vast majority of results to be negative. (Of course it's a different situation to most universities, since most students live in college.)
    What's infuriating is that this is not some 'moonshot' technology.
    It's a testing modality that's been around for months.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    It should be noted that neither we nor the US have a monopoly on folly.

    https://twitter.com/_b_meyer/status/1311200168864370688
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    To be honest that is what I would have predicted before the debate even happened. It does no more than reflect the fact that Biden has a lead of that amount and there was no clear winner.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,465

    Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
  • Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
    Could almost say he was using too much hyperbole and he should stop it
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    kamski said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    Assuming that the next president market is a two donkey race (i.e. neither drops out) the book with BF is less than 100%.

    1.66 Biden, 2.56 Trump (99.3% book).

    There is value in this market - and despite recent shortenings in price I think Biden is a good value bet. It feels to me that Trump should be significantly longer than 6/4.

    Edit: BF commissions of course.

    The 538 model - which is more Trump friendly than most others - gives him a 22% chance. That's way longer than 6/4. Something is still supporting his price. Just a "feeling" that it will be much closer than the polls indicate, I suppose. It appears that the possibility of the polls being out the other way is being assigned a probability of near zero. I can't see why personally.
    A question:
    I know the various models (538, Economist) take a number of factors into account in their modelling. Do they factor in vote suppression? If they don't, they are bound to underestimate the chance of Trump winning, and maybe punters are being more realistic in estimating the effect of suppression.
    To the extent that opinion polls factor in turnout, based partly on what has happened in the past.
    I don't think they factor in any prediction of voter suppression being more effective this time around, in ways that aren't captured in the polling.

    There's an article on the 538 model methodology here:
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-fivethirtyeights-2020-presidential-forecast-works-and-whats-different-because-of-covid-19/

    which explicitly excludes "shenanigans":

    "It seeks to reflect the vote as cast on Election Day, assuming that there are reasonable efforts to allow eligible citizens to vote and to count all legal ballots, and that electors are awarded to the popular-vote winner in each state. It does not account for the possibility of extraconstitutional shenanigans by Trump or by anyone else, such as trying to prevent mail ballots from being counted."
    Thanks for quoting that - interesting turn of phrase! I agree it would be difficult to quantify the effect, and it would need to done on a state-by-state basis, so they are no doubt wise to avoid trying to do it.
    Another thing is that to a large extent, the voter supression that occurred in previous elections has worked it's way into the prediction models. So only new levels of voter supression will be a problem with those models.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    Patrol boats on the Wye?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
    Who needs roadblocks when we have drones? Take them out!
  • Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    Patrol boats on the Wye?
    Apparently an invasion force is mustering off Swansea Bay, aiming to secure England's supply of Brains beer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,106
    edited September 2020
    Dont fine rule covid breakers, just send them to Ascension Island !!!!
  • Nigelb said:

    twitter.com/SheriffReese/status/1311125507757416449

    It is probably easier to just report the accurate claims Trump made. Rather than the massive laundry list of BS.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    The viral load remains viable on cardboard for 24 hours (presumably a similar surface to paper) according to this study

    https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-suggests-new-coronavirus-may-remain-surfaces-days

    Which isn't quite the same question as whether anyone has been infected by this route. I would assume people have.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    Patrol boats on the Wye?
    Apparently an invasion force is mustering off Swansea Bay, aiming to secure England's supply of Brains beer.
    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited September 2020
    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext

    Edit: but not necessarily short enough for your case. And in any case IANAE.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext
    I remembered reading something about the packaging in supermarkets being a potential problem but we seem to have decided to ignore it, I thought on the basis it was too hard but maybe on the back of that assessment. Thanks.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Nigelb said:

    twitter.com/SheriffReese/status/1311125507757416449

    It is probably easier to just report the accurate claims Trump made. Rather than the massive laundry list of BS.
    I dunno - how easy is it to find a needle in a haystack?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited September 2020
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext
    I remembered reading something about the packaging in supermarkets being a potential problem but we seem to have decided to ignore it, I thought on the basis it was too hard but maybe on the back of that assessment. Thanks.
    Also this,

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/27/how-long-does-coronavirus-survive-on-different-surfaces
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext
    I remembered reading something about the packaging in supermarkets being a potential problem but we seem to have decided to ignore it, I thought on the basis it was too hard but maybe on the back of that assessment. Thanks.
    PS I'm not sure that the lifetime on paper is short enough for your court to be relaxed about it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext

    Edit: but IANAE.
    Even this is now somewhat in doubt, as the early research into fomites reported on detection of viral nucleic acids, not on viable virions and so represented an upper bound of detectability, rather than a measure of viability.

    My understanding is that current research is showing fomites not to be a significant source of transmission.

    https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30561-2.pdf
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    The viral load remains viable on cardboard for 24 hours (presumably a similar surface to paper) according to this study

    https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-suggests-new-coronavirus-may-remain-surfaces-days

    Which isn't quite the same question as whether anyone has been infected by this route. I would assume people have.
    I've often wondered how many people do get infected from e.g. parcels (which also use glossy plasticky parcel tape, too) - it must be impossible to tell the origin of illness in such cases (in contrast to e.g. a track and trace in a pub). But the incidence is presumably low enough that it's not a big lump in the stats.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    The viral load remains viable on cardboard for 24 hours (presumably a similar surface to paper) according to this study

    https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/study-suggests-new-coronavirus-may-remain-surfaces-days

    Which isn't quite the same question as whether anyone has been infected by this route. I would assume people have.
    Thanks. I think that the court is going to use electronic copies for all of the witnesses going forward just in case. Probably safer.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    TimT said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext

    Edit: but IANAE.
    Even this is now somewhat in doubt, as the early research into fomites reported on detection of viral nucleic acids, not on viable virions and so represented an upper bound of detectability, rather than a measure of viability.

    My understanding is that current research is showing fomites not to be a significant source of transmission.

    https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30561-2.pdf
    Oh good, thanks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
  • It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
    Not so sure it s a runner. Diesels are bad enough in accidents when the fuel tanks rupture - H2 is much worse, unless there is something I am missing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    And while you're at it @Dura_Ace: popped smoke?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    And while you're at it @Dura_Ace: popped smoke?
    I'm guessing 'snake' = strafing and 'popped smoke' = put up a smokescreen.

    Edit: Guessing wrong on the first, it seems...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Carnyx said:

    It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
    Not so sure it s a runner. Diesels are bad enough in accidents when the fuel tanks rupture - H2 is much worse, unless there is something I am missing.
    Don't know about diesel specifically, but this discussion has come up for aviation safety and the possibility of moving to H2 instead of kerosene (paraffin). The explosion risk is apparently similar, but hydrogen has two advantages over jet fuel: it is non-toxic and being lighter than air spread s up and away instead of flowing across the vehicle.
  • Carnyx said:

    It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
    Not so sure it s a runner. Diesels are bad enough in accidents when the fuel tanks rupture - H2 is much worse, unless there is something I am missing.
    Getting the hydrogen in the first place is an inefficient process. It's OK if you're using wind power that would be wasted otherwise.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    And while you're at it @Dura_Ace: popped smoke?
    Popped smoke = smoke grenade for obscurant

    Snake = Mk.82 GP bomb with Snake Eye retarding fins

    Snake + Nape (napalm) was a popular combo in Vietnam
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    Patrol boats on the Wye?
    Don't get @HYUFD started....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    The name's Plissken.
  • I see signs of someone waking up at Sporting Index... They've added the Biden 300-ups at 21-27
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Should have secured the Abbey first. Rookie strategic error.
  • SPIN; Biden now 297-303
    Supremacy 57-65 (equivalent to Biden 297.5 - 301.5)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited September 2020

    Carnyx said:

    It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
    Not so sure it s a runner. Diesels are bad enough in accidents when the fuel tanks rupture - H2 is much worse, unless there is something I am missing.
    Getting the hydrogen in the first place is an inefficient process. It's OK if you're using wind power that would be wasted otherwise.
    Or tidal. It's the combination of gaseous hydrogen and the safety standards of the railway industry that seems odd, so I'd be glad to know more if anyone does. A bit like going back to gaslit pasenger coaches with the hideous fires that resulted after a crash.

    Edit: just seen FF43's comment. Thanks.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    The name's Plissken.
    Not Solid?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
    Not so sure it s a runner. Diesels are bad enough in accidents when the fuel tanks rupture - H2 is much worse, unless there is something I am missing.
    Getting the hydrogen in the first place is an inefficient process. It's OK if you're using wind power that would be wasted otherwise.
    Or tidal. It's the combination of gaseous hydrogen and the safety standards of the railway industry that seems odd, so I'd be glad to know more if anyone does. A bit like going back to gaslit pasenger coaches with the hideous fires that resulted after a crash.

    Edit: just seen FF43's comment. Thanks.
    Which I also qualify. These studies suggest hydrogen is WAY safer than gasoline, provided the explosion happens in the open. Hydrogen dissipates so quickly it doesn't have the density to ignite.

    https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/so-just-how-dangerous-is-hydrogen-fuel/
    https://h2tools.org/bestpractices/hydrogen-compared-other-fuels
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    It is and it doesn't rely upon the electrification of the network. I didn't realise the technology was there yet, if it is then this should be a good alternative to electrification.
    Not so sure it s a runner. Diesels are bad enough in accidents when the fuel tanks rupture - H2 is much worse, unless there is something I am missing.
    Getting the hydrogen in the first place is an inefficient process. It's OK if you're using wind power that would be wasted otherwise.
    Apparently one German strategy is effectively to propduce what sounds like clean diesel using Fisher'Tropsch process to make it from H2 and Co2 directly from the atmosphere or biomass - ergo no net C02 emissions and no pollution (assumiong complete combustion). Ergo no need to buy new trains or infrastructure, I imagine particularly problematic for long rural lines (e.g. Cornwall or North Devon or Mallaig/Kyle).

    https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/hydrogen-and-battery-trains-end-for-diesel-traction

    Anyway I am sure we will see more of this issue!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    North Carolina bet in profit. Nice.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    And while you're at it @Dura_Ace: popped smoke?
    Popped smoke = smoke grenade for obscurant

    Snake = Mk.82 GP bomb with Snake Eye retarding fins

    Snake + Nape (napalm) was a popular combo in Vietnam
    The Cu Chi tunnels, just North of Ho Chi Minh city are amazing. When you go there you see one of the reasons the Yanks lost.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    Snake = Mk.82 GP bomb with Snake Eye retarding fins
    Cheers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General-purpose_bomb#/media/File:North_American_F-100D-75-NA_(SN_56-3184)_in_flight_dropping_a_Snake-Eye_bomb_060922-F-1234S-005.jpg

    Retarded...😏
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited September 2020
    Some wag pointing out Trump doing better against Biden in CNN ' first debate win' poll than he did against Clinton. A street behind in CNN world of course but still better....

    LOL

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    And while you're at it @Dura_Ace: popped smoke?
    Popped smoke = smoke grenade for obscurant

    Snake = Mk.82 GP bomb with Snake Eye retarding fins

    Snake + Nape (napalm) was a popular combo in Vietnam
    The Cu Chi tunnels, just North of Ho Chi Minh city are amazing. When you go there you see one of the reasons the Yanks lost.
    The Kevin Burns doc remains vivid in my mind even now a few years after I saw it.
  • Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Some people on here are affronted when persons such as Sir Karel Sikoria ask impertinent questions about the NHS's criminal and disgusting neglect of non-covid mental and physical illness.

    Its outrageous.
    He's not a 'Sir' though I'm sure it's only a matter of time..

    Were you the bloke who made masks out of his old pants? Dunno why but I always imagine you wearing a repurposed pair during your sojourns on PB.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:
    The Chinese have been doing this for months.
    And we could have set this up over the summer.
    ...Much of our testing capacity is taken up by what is essentially asymptomatic screening, whether it is testing of hospital inpatients and staff, testing in care homes, or lack of triage for members of the public arriving at test centres. At the same time there is no surveillance supporting schools, universities, and businesses as they attempt to return to normal.

    Pooled sampling of what is essentially asymptomatic swabs would allow rolling surveillance programmes in schools, care homes, universities and colleges, and high-risk factory settings without having a major impact on the daily covid-19 test capacity in the UK. These pooled samples could be tested in labs dedicated to pooled sample testing meaning well-established labs would not need to suddenly change or adapt their current automated protocols....
    I see Cambridge University are aiming to test all students weekly, using pooled testing of those who share a kitchen or whatever. It makes sense to do it that way when you expect the vast majority of results to be negative. (Of course it's a different situation to most universities, since most students live in college.)
    What's infuriating is that this is not some 'moonshot' technology.
    It's a testing modality that's been around for months.
    The US used it during WW2 to test their troops for STIs, or so I heard on R4 this morning.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Is @HYUFD aware of this perilous diversion of forces away from the Gibraltar invasion?

    He is pinned down by small arms fire at Jedburgh. He's popped smoke and requested tacair to put snake and nape into the treeline.
    Snake ?
    And while you're at it @Dura_Ace: popped smoke?
    Popped smoke = smoke grenade for obscurant

    Snake = Mk.82 GP bomb with Snake Eye retarding fins

    Snake + Nape (napalm) was a popular combo in Vietnam
    I thank you - an education, as ever.
  • Anyone know why testing in Scotland tailed off?

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1311303644298518529?s=20

    It could be masking even worse results.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Some people on here are affronted when persons such as Sir Karel Sikoria ask impertinent questions about the NHS's criminal and disgusting neglect of non-covid mental and physical illness.

    Its outrageous.
    He's not a 'Sir' though I'm sure it's only a matter of time..

    Were you the bloke who made masks out of his old pants? Dunno why but I always imagine you wearing a repurposed pair during your sojourns on PB.
    yeh and you;ve got your tracksuit trousers round your ankles, blah blah insult insult. No debate, no reasoning no reply, just insults.

    Same old same old.

  • What time is Boris and the two egg heads going their press conference? And any idea what they are going to talk about?

    What time is Boris and the two egg heads going their press conference? And any idea what they are going to talk about?

    5.00 pm and no
    I don't think Boris will be announcing anything significant as he hasn't done so in Parliament. If he does he will be told off by the Speaker - again!
    I am not sure Boris worries too much about that on past form
    Like a proverbial gold fish he has already forgotten
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Do you think we should ignore social distancing in our waiting areas to do so? Cease screening planned admissions with covid tests? Cease wearing PPE when doing Aerosol Generating Procedures so that we can return to normal productivity? Stop staff self isolating when symptomatic or exposed to Covid-19 to reduce absences?

    If not, then how should we do so?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:
    The Chinese have been doing this for months.
    And we could have set this up over the summer.
    ...Much of our testing capacity is taken up by what is essentially asymptomatic screening, whether it is testing of hospital inpatients and staff, testing in care homes, or lack of triage for members of the public arriving at test centres. At the same time there is no surveillance supporting schools, universities, and businesses as they attempt to return to normal.

    Pooled sampling of what is essentially asymptomatic swabs would allow rolling surveillance programmes in schools, care homes, universities and colleges, and high-risk factory settings without having a major impact on the daily covid-19 test capacity in the UK. These pooled samples could be tested in labs dedicated to pooled sample testing meaning well-established labs would not need to suddenly change or adapt their current automated protocols....
    I see Cambridge University are aiming to test all students weekly, using pooled testing of those who share a kitchen or whatever. It makes sense to do it that way when you expect the vast majority of results to be negative. (Of course it's a different situation to most universities, since most students live in college.)
    What's infuriating is that this is not some 'moonshot' technology.
    It's a testing modality that's been around for months.
    The US used it during WW2 to test their troops for STIs, or so I heard on R4 this morning.
    Not PCR, I think :smile:

    But sure, the principle has been around for ages.
    Point is that it's been a practical, tested proposition for Covid for months. There are issues (cross contamination is a bigger risk, for example), but they've been sorted out.
    Pooling of samples at source, rather than in the lab, is particularly effective.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Alistair said:

    North Carolina bet in profit. Nice.

    You on the Dems like me?
  • Foxy said:

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Do you think we should ignore social distancing in our waiting areas to do so? Cease screening planned admissions with covid tests? Cease wearing PPE when doing Aerosol Generating Procedures so that we can return to normal productivity? Stop staff self isolating when symptomatic or exposed to Covid-19 to reduce absences?

    If not, then how should we do so?
    I think the NHS (as a bureaucracy) should be asking itself why it has not had a good war. There has been a lot of self congratulation, but there is a massive absence of objective analysis as to why we have one of the highest death per 100k figures in the world. Clinicians should be leading that question rather than being defensive. Perhaps the NHS as an organisation is not as exceptional as most UK residents have been told to think? Almost certainly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    TimT said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext

    Edit: but IANAE.
    Even this is now somewhat in doubt, as the early research into fomites reported on detection of viral nucleic acids, not on viable virions and so represented an upper bound of detectability, rather than a measure of viability.

    My understanding is that current research is showing fomites not to be a significant source of transmission.

    https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30561-2.pdf
    In this outbreak, frozen food was a fomite.

    https://twitter.com/PandemicCovid20/status/1310110305448411136?s=19
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Some people on here are affronted when persons such as Sir Karel Sikoria ask impertinent questions about the NHS's criminal and disgusting neglect of non-covid mental and physical illness.

    Its outrageous.
    He's not a 'Sir' though I'm sure it's only a matter of time..

    Were you the bloke who made masks out of his old pants? Dunno why but I always imagine you wearing a repurposed pair during your sojourns on PB.
    yeh and you;ve got your tracksuit trousers round your ankles, blah blah insult insult. No debate, no reasoning no reply, just insults.

    Same old same old.

    How many deaths in America yesterday?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited September 2020
    Hydrogen - the issue is production, electrolysis of water or atomisation of methane are both extremely energy intensive and while the grid is greenhouse gas heavy we should avoid it.

    On energy, the Sparc fusion reactor design looks extremely promising, tokomanenergy in Oxford are using a very similar design. One of the advantages of the design is that the reaction could potentially use the exhaust He-3 as fuel to form stable lithium with excess neutrons forming part of the Li-7 nucleus or one He-4 nucleus and one proton. This is all in theory, of course, however either of these are a much better bet for producing meaningful fusion energy than ITER which looks more and more like a scientific jolly designed to be a French job creation scheme.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Anyone know why testing in Scotland tailed off?

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1311303644298518529?s=20

    It could be masking even worse results.

    The surge was pillar 2 testing of the young by anxious parents.
  • Foxy said:

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Do you think we should ignore social distancing in our waiting areas to do so? Cease screening planned admissions with covid tests? Cease wearing PPE when doing Aerosol Generating Procedures so that we can return to normal productivity? Stop staff self isolating when symptomatic or exposed to Covid-19 to reduce absences?

    If not, then how should we do so?
    As far as I can tell, the plan is to simply pretend that Covid doesn't exist and act accordingly. NerysHughes is, I presume, the proud owner of a pair of Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    https://twitter.com/SheriffReese/status/1311125507757416449

    A really needed tweet this election I think.

    The most liked Maga tweet ?

    https://twitter.com/MAGASecretly/status/1311143138753421313

    Only Trump supporting police are the TRUE police.

    Gone viral anyway, 750k likes for the tweet.
  • Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
    Of course there will not be roadblocks and I cannot speak about enforcement in South Wales

    However, here in North Wales all four local authorities close to the English border have put in the same regulations and the relevant regulation states:-

    Residents cannot leave the area (in our case Conwy CBC ) without good reason. Similarly those who live outside the area cannot enter without good reason.

    You can only be exempt from these rules if you have a reasonable excuse including work or visiting family for compassionate reasons

    If you do not have a good reason to stay in the area you should leave as soon as practicable

    Travelling to a second home is not considered a reasonable excuse

    The only exception is if you have to travel along a road that passes through the areas and have no other reasonable options to reach your destination then that is allowed

    The police in Wales have been given powers to enforce these regulations



    All the above commences at 6.00pm tonight but one other difference from the previous lockdown is that travel by residents is not just limited to 5 miles, but to your county boundary.

    And no this is not hyperbole, this happens in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire, and Conwy tonight
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting question (well, by today’s somewhat disappointing standards). In a “blended” proof where the key witnesses are giving evidence in person and others remotely a witness was referred to hard copy productions. The question arose whether the next witness could safely do the same.
    One of parties, who is a publisher, states that there has not been a single example of the virus being transmitted via the printed page.

    Is he right?

    IIRC the early research into covid (or at least coronaviruses) persistence suggested a short life on ordinary paper. The real problem would be glossy surfaces and some metals - plastic bindings, plastic-coated paper, metal ring binders, etc. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30003-3/fulltext

    Edit: but IANAE.
    Even this is now somewhat in doubt, as the early research into fomites reported on detection of viral nucleic acids, not on viable virions and so represented an upper bound of detectability, rather than a measure of viability.

    My understanding is that current research is showing fomites not to be a significant source of transmission.

    https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099(20)30561-2.pdf
    In this outbreak, frozen food was a fomite.

    https://twitter.com/PandemicCovid20/status/1310110305448411136?s=19
    Really? Or a correlation/causation thing?

    The problem with a lot of the COVID research published is that it is not peer-reviewed and it is really hard to know what to trust. Particularly anything coming out of China.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    Foxy said:

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Do you think we should ignore social distancing in our waiting areas to do so? Cease screening planned admissions with covid tests? Cease wearing PPE when doing Aerosol Generating Procedures so that we can return to normal productivity? Stop staff self isolating when symptomatic or exposed to Covid-19 to reduce absences?

    If not, then how should we do so?
    I think the NHS (as a bureaucracy) should be asking itself why it has not had a good war. There has been a lot of self congratulation, but there is a massive absence of objective analysis as to why we have one of the highest death per 100k figures in the world. Clinicians should be leading that question rather than being defensive. Perhaps the NHS as an organisation is not as exceptional as most UK residents have been told to think? Almost certainly.
    Indeed. Attentive PBers will have noted that I am often critical of the NHS.

    I think in this outbreak the centralised Command and Control imposed by the DoH is a significant part of the problem. See

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/
  • MaxPB said:

    Hydrogen - the issue is production, electrolysis of water or atomisation of methane are both extremely energy intensive and while the grid is greenhouse gas heavy we should avoid it.

    On energy, the Sparc fusion reactor design looks extremely promising, tokomanenergy in Oxford are using a very similar design. One of the advantages of the design is that the reaction could potentially use the exhaust He-3 as fuel to form stable lithium with excess neutrons forming part of the Li-7 nucleus or one He-4 nucleus and one proton. This is all in theory, of course, however either of these are a much better bet for producing meaningful fusion energy than ITER which looks more and more like a scientific jolly designed to be a French job creation scheme.

    Do you have any basis for that claim other than simple Francophobia?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,427
    edited September 2020

    Anyone know why testing in Scotland tailed off?

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1311303644298518529?s=20

    It could be masking even worse results.

    The peak is due to changes in the number of tests in the "UK Gov testing programme" - so I think these are the Pillar 2 tests.

    So it could be that there was a decision at some level to prioritise areas of England (or NI/Wales), or the Scottish government having earlier requested a surge didn't repeat that request.

    There's a lot that's opaque about the testing system. As far as it's possible to tell it looks like the devolved administrations have been worse at testing than the UK government, though I don't know what emergency funding they are able to access to expand testing on their own initiative.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,465

    Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
    Of course there will not be roadblocks and I cannot speak about enforcement in South Wales

    However, here in North Wales all four local authorities close to the English border have put in the same regulations and the relevant regulation states:-

    Residents cannot leave the area (in our case Conwy CBC ) without good reason. Similarly those who live outside the area cannot enter without good reason.

    You can only be exempt from these rules if you have a reasonable excuse including work or visiting family for compassionate reasons

    If you do not have a good reason to stay in the area you should leave as soon as practicable

    Travelling to a second home is not considered a reasonable excuse

    The only exception is if you have to travel along a road that passes through the areas and have no other reasonable options to reach your destination then that is allowed

    The police in Wales have been given powers to enforce these regulations



    All the above commences at 6.00pm tonight but one other difference from the previous lockdown is that travel by residents is not just limited to 5 miles, but to your county boundary.

    And no this is not hyperbole, this happens in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire, and Conwy tonight
    But you were suggesting that someone cannot legitimately travel from an area with no restriction in England, to an area of Wales outside the new restrictions because they can't go into Conwy, which is not true. Travel to that destination is a legitimate reason. Do you really believe the police are going to be stopping cars at the border? That may have occurred during the first, national, lockdown, but we are in very different times, with keeping the economy going a concern. Traffic levels are at or close to normal now. I don't understand why you think it is illegal to travel across Conwy to Anglesey as described above.
  • Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
    Of course there will not be roadblocks and I cannot speak about enforcement in South Wales

    However, here in North Wales all four local authorities close to the English border have put in the same regulations and the relevant regulation states:-

    Residents cannot leave the area (in our case Conwy CBC ) without good reason. Similarly those who live outside the area cannot enter without good reason.

    You can only be exempt from these rules if you have a reasonable excuse including work or visiting family for compassionate reasons

    If you do not have a good reason to stay in the area you should leave as soon as practicable

    Travelling to a second home is not considered a reasonable excuse

    The only exception is if you have to travel along a road that passes through the areas and have no other reasonable options to reach your destination then that is allowed

    The police in Wales have been given powers to enforce these regulations



    All the above commences at 6.00pm tonight but one other difference from the previous lockdown is that travel by residents is not just limited to 5 miles, but to your county boundary.

    And no this is not hyperbole, this happens in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire, and Conwy tonight
    But you were suggesting that someone cannot legitimately travel from an area with no restriction in England, to an area of Wales outside the new restrictions because they can't go into Conwy, which is not true. Travel to that destination is a legitimate reason. Do you really believe the police are going to be stopping cars at the border? That may have occurred during the first, national, lockdown, but we are in very different times, with keeping the economy going a concern. Traffic levels are at or close to normal now. I don't understand why you think it is illegal to travel across Conwy to Anglesey as described above.
    Definitely sounds like hyperbole to me, I think he should stop it
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Conjunctivitis may be the first symptom of coronavirus, according to a study. Ophthalmologists from the Madrid Hospital Clínico San Carlos have evaluated the prevalence and clinical characteristics of the pathology associated with COVID-19. The study has been prepared from 301 patients hospitalized at the Clinic, with a mean age of 72 years and is the first in the country to describe the clinical characteristics of conjunctivitis in a wide series of patients
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Stocky said:

    Alistair said:

    North Carolina bet in profit. Nice.

    You on the Dems like me?
    Yeah, don't understand why it's taken so long for them to drop below evens. The early voting data continues to look good for them alongside the polling.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited September 2020

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Some people on here are affronted when persons such as Sir Karel Sikoria ask impertinent questions about the NHS's criminal and disgusting neglect of non-covid mental and physical illness.

    Its outrageous.
    He's not a 'Sir' though I'm sure it's only a matter of time..

    Were you the bloke who made masks out of his old pants? Dunno why but I always imagine you wearing a repurposed pair during your sojourns on PB.
    yeh and you;ve got your tracksuit trousers round your ankles, blah blah insult insult. No debate, no reasoning no reply, just insults.

    Same old same old.

    I don't think it's an insult to refer to something a poster has actually referred to themselves. That someone who's a fanboi of 'Sir' Karol Sikora (a Covid Polyanna whose every unqualified prediction on the length and severity of the pandemic has proved to be a load of shyte) also wears his own pants on his head is just a happy coincidence.
  • The Democrats are 7/1 to win the Senate seat in Kansas. Might that be value?

    https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/senate-results/kansas

    There have been a series of close polls there, even before the two released today that includes one with a Democrat lead.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/senate/kansas/

    A few of the other Senate races that might fall to the Democrats on a landslide could be worth a look.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Nigelb said:

    twitter.com/SheriffReese/status/1311125507757416449

    It is probably easier to just report the accurate claims Trump made. Rather than the massive laundry list of BS.
    I dunno - how easy is it to find a needle in a haystack?
    Which is what I was saying earlier, how can you have any sort of a debate with a man who simply lies about everything and dismisses any thing he doesn't like as "fake news". It's like trying treason with a toddler in mid-tantrum. Sadly his supporters no longer seem to care about the truth.
  • Foxy said:

    Alok Sharma, the thinking man's Gillian Keegan is on Radio 4 now. A bit tetchy with Martha Kearney.

    If one needs to know the rules, go on line, is Mr Sharma's go to statement.

    Actually that is the best advice any politician can give

    Here in Conwy CBC we were instructed to go into lockdown tonight and everyone I know and on social media spoke about Conwy web site that provides all the information that is necessary

    We are not allowed to cross into another authority's area apart from for work, we are not allowed to leave to go away on holiday, and those on holiday here must go home

    My hometown of Llandudno was just recovering and now Mark Drakeford has slammed the door on our hotels and guest houses

    I have relations with a holiday caravan on Anglesey. They live in Lancashire. I assume that the caravan is now inaccessible by road. After all one cannot, without an enormous detour get from just N of Manchester to Beaumaris by road without going through Conwy.
    AIUI they're intending to visit next week.
    There was a similar question on 5 live yesterday. Apparently Anglesey is not in the restricted area, so fine to go and stay. At least it was fine yesterday...🙄
    They cannot get there as most authorities from the border are closed to traffic coming in from England
    I didn't see that on the M4 - maybe the case for minor roads? And as you can still travel for work, I doubt this it true.
    You do realise this comes in at 6.00pm tonight in North Wales
    I went through areas ALREADY under these rules last week. There was no barrier. I know during the first lockdown there were police checks in areas - I am sceptical that that is the case now. Or indeed in Conwy when the new measures come into place.
    These are the rules in Conwy


    https://gov.wales/conwy-county-borough-lockdown-frequently-asked-questions
    And I quote:

    "Can I travel through Conwy County Borough to reach a destination not in the Borough?
    If you have to travel along a road that passes through the area and you have no other reasonable option to travel to your destination, then this is allowed."
    Not for leisure purposes
    Its a direct quote from the document you linked FFS. Under Travel and public transport.
    Anyone intending coming across the border from tonight will have to have a genuine reason including work and medical issues but not leisure and I expect this will be enforced
    There will not be roadblocks. There aren't on the M4 in south wales now. You are over-reacting.
    Of course there will not be roadblocks and I cannot speak about enforcement in South Wales

    However, here in North Wales all four local authorities close to the English border have put in the same regulations and the relevant regulation states:-

    Residents cannot leave the area (in our case Conwy CBC ) without good reason. Similarly those who live outside the area cannot enter without good reason.

    You can only be exempt from these rules if you have a reasonable excuse including work or visiting family for compassionate reasons

    If you do not have a good reason to stay in the area you should leave as soon as practicable

    Travelling to a second home is not considered a reasonable excuse

    The only exception is if you have to travel along a road that passes through the areas and have no other reasonable options to reach your destination then that is allowed

    The police in Wales have been given powers to enforce these regulations



    All the above commences at 6.00pm tonight but one other difference from the previous lockdown is that travel by residents is not just limited to 5 miles, but to your county boundary.

    And no this is not hyperbole, this happens in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire, and Conwy tonight
    But you were suggesting that someone cannot legitimately travel from an area with no restriction in England, to an area of Wales outside the new restrictions because they can't go into Conwy, which is not true. Travel to that destination is a legitimate reason. Do you really believe the police are going to be stopping cars at the border? That may have occurred during the first, national, lockdown, but we are in very different times, with keeping the economy going a concern. Traffic levels are at or close to normal now. I don't understand why you think it is illegal to travel across Conwy to Anglesey as described above.
    I expect spot border checks this weekend and to travel through these counties without reasonable reason is unfair to the populace of North Wales and I expect this loophole if it is one to be closed

    It will be interesting to see what happens to anyone towing a caravan or camping trailer or a mobile home this weekend if they try to cross the border
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    Dura_Ace said:

    RobD said:

    PB is at its best when we are debating the issues, not each other.

    I disagree. Some of the best laughs I've had on here are when people are sticking the fucking hoof into each other. A tory blue-on-blue swedge is a particular treat.
    It sure is. But they always rally round the rosette when it comes to election time, so they can keep snouts in the trough.
  • Can we just blame northerners for all the current problems?
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Some genuinely heart rending stories of people suffering with cancer being ignored by the NHS on the radio this morning.

    But hey, the virus that's killing fewer than flu, right?
    How long have I been saying that every other illness is being ignored in favour of Covid. Deaths were above average again in the ONS stats. The madness has to stop. Get Surgeries and Hospitals back to treating people, not just using Covid as an excuse to do nothing.
    Do you think we should ignore social distancing in our waiting areas to do so? Cease screening planned admissions with covid tests? Cease wearing PPE when doing Aerosol Generating Procedures so that we can return to normal productivity? Stop staff self isolating when symptomatic or exposed to Covid-19 to reduce absences?

    If not, then how should we do so?
    I think the NHS (as a bureaucracy) should be asking itself why it has not had a good war. There has been a lot of self congratulation, but there is a massive absence of objective analysis as to why we have one of the highest death per 100k figures in the world. Clinicians should be leading that question rather than being defensive. Perhaps the NHS as an organisation is not as exceptional as most UK residents have been told to think? Almost certainly.
    Indeed. Attentive PBers will have noted that I am often critical of the NHS.

    I think in this outbreak the centralised Command and Control imposed by the DoH is a significant part of the problem. See

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/
    My question would be why Sweden has ~10% less deaths per million than the UK, despite being near herd immunity according to its own experts? Maybe the locally-run Swedish NHS works more effectively than ours or they could just be spending more money on it (% of GDP).
This discussion has been closed.