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  • Philip forgot pogo stick, hovercraft and rocket boots
  • Philip forgot pogo stick, hovercraft and rocket boots

    I also forgot motorbike. Silly me.
  • Philip forgot pogo stick, hovercraft and rocket boots

    I also forgot motorbike. Silly me.
    And speedboat
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 257
    Unicycle? Donkey?
  • We can even say the current cost if you'd prefer, please do tell me my alternatives.

    Aircraft perhaps?

    Off the top of my head
    1. Pay the going rate for train fare
    2. Work from home and not commute at all
    3. Drive
    4. Get a taxi/UBER
    5. Bus
    6. Ebike
    7. Find work closer to home
    8. Find a home closer to work
    Pick of those choices, or find a different one. If working from home is a viable option then why should we be subsidising people to take spots on the train they don't need to take instead?
    But you said the free market would provide transport options, finding a new place to work isn't the free market providing transport options.

    Drive to Central London? Where will I park?

    Get a taxi to Central London? Are you mad?

    I don't know of any bus services that go to Central London from me.

    E-bike 47 miles? You mad?

    So yes, it's peak PB again: move, or pay the train fare you London scum (I am joking)
    Finding a new place to work is the free market providing transport option - the market place for work is part of the free market - as would be a business relocating to somewhere easier and cheaper for their employees to get to. There is a reason in much of the rest of the country there has been a movement for large employers to go to specially built eg industrial parks with large ample parking, that is a positive development within the free market. Subsidising companies to build on top of each other with no easy access to transport is a distortion to the free market.

    I don't know where about you would be going to in London but last time I drove there I parked in a multistory car park.

    I don't know where abouts you live or where you are going to so its hard to find specific alternative routes for you.

    And I notice you pointedly failed to address the Work From Home option. Why would you hate Work From Home as an alternative? What's wrong with that?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    Having met a number of barristers, many do appear to regard themselves as a race apart from other lawyers. And indeed humans.

    What is the difference between a barrister and God? etc...
    But apparently they take home an average of only £27k a year.
    IIRC it is a profession that works, a bit like Hollywood -

    A tiny number of high flyers take home most of the money, leaving a hungry mob of aspirants on not very much, to be used and abused by the winners.
    There are 20,000 barristers, there's enough work for 10,000, and there are 5,000 actually doing it. Or thereabouts.
    Why are there so many delays with court cases?
    Primarily because half the courts have been closed in the cuts since 2010, and by the sounds of it, the remaining courts are run awfully.

    I follow a number of barristers on Twitter (non famous ones) and they are continually complaining about sh*te administration and sh*te management. Prompt access to justice is a fundamental part of the rule of law and by all accounts it's currently pathetic.
    Indeed, it is a woefully inefficient system. The Greeks succeeded in arresting, detaining, prosecuting and convicting Harry Maguire in about three days - and their experience of austerity was a couple of orders of magnitude greater than ours.

    If only the same sense of urgency were seen in English courts then justice would be transformed. The asylum seeking boat people problem would no longer be a problem if only a summary tribunal were set up in Dover and the supplicants were dragged before it (still wringing wet and borderline hypothermic) and rejected within two hours of arrival.

    I shall have to write a letter to Priti Patel on this subject tonight. If I remember to tell her about my idea to load the unsuccessful applicants into giant trebuchets and throw them back to France then I might also be rewarded with a life peerage and a junior ministerial position at the Home Office.
  • MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
  • It's got to be the fact we're still WFH, that we're not seeing a France
  • I can credit the Government with that
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Oh, and the Government's Covid data website has completely collapsed now. They can't get anything right.

    Seems to be working fine for me, I think they are getting slammed at between 4pm and 6pm everyday by data scrapers. Today's figures:

    186,500 tests
    1,276 positive cases
    754 patients in hospital of which 71 on ventilators and 109 newly admitted
    9 new deaths registered
  • MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    Our figures are public domain so should be easy to compare.

    My French is a little rusty but that looks to me like it says 3.9% of tests are coming back positive? With 4,535 in hospital? Our figures don't seem remotely like that.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    MaxPB said:
    It’s going to go that way across Europe I doubt that the UK will avoid it.
  • MaxPB said:

    Oh, and the Government's Covid data website has completely collapsed now. They can't get anything right.

    Seems to be working fine for me, I think they are getting slammed at between 4pm and 6pm everyday by data scrapers. Today's figures:

    186,500 tests
    1,276 positive cases
    754 patients in hospital of which 71 on ventilators and 109 newly admitted
    9 new deaths registered
    0.7% positive is very different to French 3.9% of tests being positive even if its not like-for-like.

    I think Test & Trace is a reason why the UK is doing so well. We're testing massive numbers and tracing massive numbers which must be breaking many chains of transmission.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    You don't trust the figures?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    Our figures are public domain so should be easy to compare.

    My French is a little rusty but that looks to me like it says 3.9% of tests are coming back positive? With 4,535 in hospital? Our figures don't seem remotely like that.
    Yes, that's correct. Also 387 in intensive care. Those are certainly quite worrying figures.
  • What worries me is beyond WFH - which we have done differently to be fair, most have not gone back - is we're starting to get a bit arrogant, like the virus has gone and isn't coming back.
  • RobD said:

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    You don't trust the figures?
    No you misunderstand me, I don't mean now I mean I can't believe this is where we don't end up
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    We are an island nation so it shouldn't be as bad and fwiw people seem to be better at sticking to the rules here than in France. Also London had such a huge outbreak in the first wave there is probably some level of herd immunity that will reduce the chances of another mass outbreak, and London is still the most vulnerable part of the country because it is a travel and commercial hub.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    You don't trust the figures?
    No you misunderstand me, I don't mean now I mean I can't believe this is where we don't end up
    Well nothing is inevitable if people stay alert.

    I'll get my coat.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:
    It’s going to go that way across Europe I doubt that the UK will avoid it.
    Looking at the trajectory France and Spain don't seem to have been able to arrest the rise, Germany, Italy and the UK do seem to have done better but that's no guarantee it will stay that way of course.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Wow, just been pointed at what is happening in Portsmouth, Virginia and it is totally bonkers

    https://newrepublic.com/article/159142/portsmouth-virginia-police-louise-lucas-lisa-lucas-burke

    Short version is that voters have voted in politicians who have vowed to reform the police department, the police keep bringing charges against them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s a plausible and worrying scenario that plays out in that case:

    Trump is the clear winner on the night, but Biden doesn’t concede.
    Over the next few days, as the counts complete including postall votes, Biden becomes the winner and Trump doesn’t concede.
    Trump accuses certain States and Dem governors of making up the numbers/stuffing ballot boxes with postal votes/other cheating.
    The whole damn mess ends up in several court cases heading into December, and Bush v Gore starts to look like a little administrative difficulty.
    Well let's hope not.

    Watched the Moore clip, thanks for posting. Yes, eloquent and prescient. And a very romantic notion of why candidate Donald Trump appealed to the WWC in 2016. It reminded me of Owen Jones's video predicting Leave would win the EU Ref. Owen is also prone to romanticizing the working class. But at least he has never come over as a Brexit fan. Moore sounds there like a Trumpster. Sounds like he was buying it and selling it. And perhaps he was in 2016. Certainly he was right to predict that many would be swayed in the Rust Belt. But this is 2020 and imo the actual experience of Trump in office for 4 years means that fewer will fall for the Trump con this time. Course I could be doing what I keep pointing out you are doing - projecting - but I really do expect a clear loss for him this time and right now the evidence supports this view.
    Owen Jones wrote an article in 2015 saying that the left should campaign to leave the EU.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic
    He's like Boris Johnson!

    But at least it wasn't on the same day.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    What worries me is beyond WFH - which we have done differently to be fair, most have not gone back - is we're starting to get a bit arrogant, like the virus has gone and isn't coming back.

    Personally I haven't seen that happen yet, every time I've been out to the pub people keep their distance from each other and the staff and tables are pretty well spread out in restaurants and pubs.
  • MaxPB said:

    What worries me is beyond WFH - which we have done differently to be fair, most have not gone back - is we're starting to get a bit arrogant, like the virus has gone and isn't coming back.

    Personally I haven't seen that happen yet, every time I've been out to the pub people keep their distance from each other and the staff and tables are pretty well spread out in restaurants and pubs.
    Fair enough mate, I hope my experience is unique
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    edited August 2020
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    We are an island nation so it shouldn't be as bad and fwiw people seem to be better at sticking to the rules here than in France. Also London had such a huge outbreak in the first wave there is probably some level of herd immunity that will reduce the chances of another mass outbreak, and London is still the most vulnerable part of the country because it is a travel and commercial hub.
    Be sparing with the exceptionalism. I think it is simply that throughout we have run about a month behind France.
  • Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s a plausible and worrying scenario that plays out in that case:

    Trump is the clear winner on the night, but Biden doesn’t concede.
    Over the next few days, as the counts complete including postall votes, Biden becomes the winner and Trump doesn’t concede.
    Trump accuses certain States and Dem governors of making up the numbers/stuffing ballot boxes with postal votes/other cheating.
    The whole damn mess ends up in several court cases heading into December, and Bush v Gore starts to look like a little administrative difficulty.
    Well let's hope not.

    Watched the Moore clip, thanks for posting. Yes, eloquent and prescient. And a very romantic notion of why candidate Donald Trump appealed to the WWC in 2016. It reminded me of Owen Jones's video predicting Leave would win the EU Ref. Owen is also prone to romanticizing the working class. But at least he has never come over as a Brexit fan. Moore sounds there like a Trumpster. Sounds like he was buying the crap. And perhaps he was in 2016. Certainly he was right to predict that many would in the Rust Belt. But this is 2020 and imo the actual experience of Trump in office for 4 years means that fewer will fall for the con this time. Course I could be doing what I keep pointing out you are doing - projecting - but I really do expect a clear loss for Trump this time and right now the evidence supports this view.
    There’s actually a bit of context to the clip, it was five minutes of a much longer programme, where he does come out forcefully and unequivocally for a Clinton victory.

    I think too many Biden supporters know they’re going to win because the other guy is evil, and are working backwards from there. I’m trying to read more widely around the election and point out things that might not appear obvious from the narrative.

    Even Dan Hodges agreed with me this morning.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1299257518833758208
    Yeah, except the polling from Wisconsin says that more than 50% of Wisconsonites disapprove of Trump's handling of the protests.
    The "logic" behind:

    Lots more riots under Trump presidency
    Riots not being dealt with effectively under Trump presidency
    Lets vote to keep Trump in because we dont like the riots

    is even harder to understand than the "logic" behind Brexit.
    The Trump appeal is visceral not logical. Note how his delivery when talking lora norder is all Dirty Harry. He's not talking to people who want less disorder. It's for people who want to see some punks get their heads cracked by the National Guard.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:
    There is no way we don't have the same, surely?
    We are an island nation so it shouldn't be as bad and fwiw people seem to be better at sticking to the rules here than in France. Also London had such a huge outbreak in the first wave there is probably some level of herd immunity that will reduce the chances of another mass outbreak, and London is still the most vulnerable part of the country because it is a travel and commercial hub.
    Be sparing with the exceptionalism. I think it is simply that throughout we have run about a month behind France.
    That's definitely possible, but from the trajectories it doesn't look like it so far. Also there does seem to be some success of the quarantine measures that maybe we're not seeing because we think the rules are crap. The trajectory in France seems quite bad the ramp up from just a few hundred cases per day to now has happened very quickly which is what's so worrying.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited August 2020
    One would expect nothing else.

    That much having been said, I'm not sure that Scottish Unionism banging on endlessly about the "Union dividend" is much of a strategy for long-term survival. Their voices carry over the border and sound an awful lot like "look how much the English are bribing us not to walk off." Because that is, of course, exactly what's happening.

    This is not necessarily the best way to convince the English voter of the benefits of the arrangement.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:
    It’s going to go that way across Europe I doubt that the UK will avoid it.
    Looking at the trajectory France and Spain don't seem to have been able to arrest the rise, Germany, Italy and the UK do seem to have done better but that's no guarantee it will stay that way of course.
    Can’t see how they avoid it Merkel said today they were heading for major problems in the coming months. Whilst you have over 1000 known cases being found each day you clearly have many more. The best hope for the UK Is a seriously shitty bank holiday followed by a lousy autumn. In Spain they are doing their best to plan for the schools reopening but there is an undercurrent of opinion that it’s going to be a disaster despite the planning and efforts of teaching teams.

    If you look at the graphs then spain had an extended period of lower cases than the UK but the virus was still out there waiting for the opportunity to replicate. Fortunately the Spanish holiday season, for Spaniards ends this weekend, let’s hope they only leaver their litter not their virus when they go back.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    Having met a number of barristers, many do appear to regard themselves as a race apart from other lawyers. And indeed humans.

    What is the difference between a barrister and God? etc...
    But apparently they take home an average of only £27k a year.
    IIRC it is a profession that works, a bit like Hollywood -
    A tiny number of high flyers take home most of the money, leaving a hungry mob of aspirants on not very much, to be used and abused by the winners.
    There are 20,000 barristers, there's enough work for 10,000, and there are 5,000 actually doing it. Or thereabouts.
    Why are there so many delays with court cases?
    It seems to me that barristers need something like OFSTEAD to put some kind of order on them. After all, it works well for teachers.

    All those overpaid barristers with their long holidays in their second homes, almost certainly in foreign parts. I bet they waste a lot of tiime when they are not actually in court as well. What we need is good Conservative policy to force them to work harder and more efficiently.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Trafalgar Group poll has Trump leading 47 - 45 in Michigan.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    ClippP said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    Having met a number of barristers, many do appear to regard themselves as a race apart from other lawyers. And indeed humans.

    What is the difference between a barrister and God? etc...
    But apparently they take home an average of only £27k a year.
    IIRC it is a profession that works, a bit like Hollywood -
    A tiny number of high flyers take home most of the money, leaving a hungry mob of aspirants on not very much, to be used and abused by the winners.
    There are 20,000 barristers, there's enough work for 10,000, and there are 5,000 actually doing it. Or thereabouts.
    Why are there so many delays with court cases?
    It seems to me that barristers need something like OFSTEAD to put some kind of order on them. After all, it works well for teachers.

    All those overpaid barristers with their long holidays in their second homes, almost certainly in foreign parts. I bet they waste a lot of tiime when they are not actually in court as well. What we need is good Conservative policy to force them to work harder and more efficiently.
    Is that not over the top for a coffee shop!?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    IshmaelZ said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:
    Having met a number of barristers, many do appear to regard themselves as a race apart from other lawyers. And indeed humans.

    What is the difference between a barrister and God? etc...
    But apparently they take home an average of only £27k a year.
    IIRC it is a profession that works, a bit like Hollywood -

    A tiny number of high flyers take home most of the money, leaving a hungry mob of aspirants on not very much, to be used and abused by the winners.
    There are 20,000 barristers, there's enough work for 10,000, and there are 5,000 actually doing it. Or thereabouts.
    Why are there so many delays with court cases?
    Primarily because half the courts have been closed in the cuts since 2010, and by the sounds of it, the remaining courts are run awfully.

    I follow a number of barristers on Twitter (non famous ones) and they are continually complaining about sh*te administration and sh*te management. Prompt access to justice is a fundamental part of the rule of law and by all accounts it's currently pathetic.
    Indeed, it is a woefully inefficient system. The Greeks succeeded in arresting, detaining, prosecuting and convicting Harry Maguire in about three days - and their experience of austerity was a couple of orders of magnitude greater than ours.

    If only the same sense of urgency were seen in English courts then justice would be transformed. The asylum seeking boat people problem would no longer be a problem if only a summary tribunal were set up in Dover and the supplicants were dragged before it (still wringing wet and borderline hypothermic) and rejected within two hours of arrival.

    I shall have to write a letter to Priti Patel on this subject tonight. If I remember to tell her about my idea to load the unsuccessful applicants into giant trebuchets and throw them back to France then I might also be rewarded with a life peerage and a junior ministerial position at the Home Office.
    Problem is, throwing money at the justice system and those pesky “activist lawyers” doesn’t win votes.
  • I definitely think we've got a reasonable chance if we keep WFH
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:

    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:
    It’s going to go that way across Europe I doubt that the UK will avoid it.
    Looking at the trajectory France and Spain don't seem to have been able to arrest the rise, Germany, Italy and the UK do seem to have done better but that's no guarantee it will stay that way of course.
    Can’t see how they avoid it Merkel said today they were heading for major problems in the coming months. Whilst you have over 1000 known cases being found each day you clearly have many more. The best hope for the UK Is a seriously shitty bank holiday followed by a lousy autumn. In Spain they are doing their best to plan for the schools reopening but there is an undercurrent of opinion that it’s going to be a disaster despite the planning and efforts of teaching teams.

    If you look at the graphs then spain had an extended period of lower cases than the UK but the virus was still out there waiting for the opportunity to replicate. Fortunately the Spanish holiday season, for Spaniards ends this weekend, let’s hope they only leaver their litter not their virus when they go back.
    Yes, there's definitely a lot to worry about, one of the good things that's already changed is that the ONS weekly study is now going to be based on 220k tests per week rather than just 19k tests per week to help the government see where the cases actually are in the country and I think that will get expanded to 1m per week when the saliva test is approved.

    Finally, and hat tip to Foxy, the track and trace by local councils does seem to be quite effective at finding people. Hopefully the government pushes in more funding for them and gets rid of the rubbish call centre entirely.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Sandpit said:

    I think too many Biden supporters know they’re going to win because the other guy is evil, and are working backwards from there.

    Kinabalu is a prime example of this, he refuses to even consider any alternative.

    I am hopeful Trump will lose but am taking nothing for granted.
    I'm not. I'm just justifiably confident. Trump has a decent chance in theory - maybe 30% - but in this real and imperfect world he's unelectable and thus toast.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    So about a quarter of the UK value?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    I definitely think we've got a reasonable chance if we keep WFH

    Indeed, which is also why this stance from the government is extremely unhelpful. The last thing we need is another national lockdown like we had from late March to early June. We've seen the effect that had on the economy, I'd rather delay reopening city centres for office workers than have that again.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    justin124 said:

    Trafalgar Group poll has Trump leading 47 - 45 in Michigan.

    Trafalgar Group attempts to correct for shy Trump voter syndrome (which is good), but they also have extremely aggressive voter turnout filtering, which means that if you voted Obama in '12 and didn't vote in '16, then even if you say you are 100% likely to vote, then you aren't counted.

    In 2016, they overstated Trump by about 1.5%, and their record at the midtterms wasn't great. Still, they are far from a joke pollster, and I would certainly take them seriously.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s a plausible and worrying scenario that plays out in that case:

    Trump is the clear winner on the night, but Biden doesn’t concede.
    Over the next few days, as the counts complete including postall votes, Biden becomes the winner and Trump doesn’t concede.
    Trump accuses certain States and Dem governors of making up the numbers/stuffing ballot boxes with postal votes/other cheating.
    The whole damn mess ends up in several court cases heading into December, and Bush v Gore starts to look like a little administrative difficulty.
    Well let's hope not.

    Watched the Moore clip, thanks for posting. Yes, eloquent and prescient. And a very romantic notion of why candidate Donald Trump appealed to the WWC in 2016. It reminded me of Owen Jones's video predicting Leave would win the EU Ref. Owen is also prone to romanticizing the working class. But at least he has never come over as a Brexit fan. Moore sounds there like a Trumpster. Sounds like he was buying the crap. And perhaps he was in 2016. Certainly he was right to predict that many would in the Rust Belt. But this is 2020 and imo the actual experience of Trump in office for 4 years means that fewer will fall for the con this time. Course I could be doing what I keep pointing out you are doing - projecting - but I really do expect a clear loss for Trump this time and right now the evidence supports this view.
    There’s actually a bit of context to the clip, it was five minutes of a much longer programme, where he does come out forcefully and unequivocally for a Clinton victory.

    I think too many Biden supporters know they’re going to win because the other guy is evil, and are working backwards from there. I’m trying to read more widely around the election and point out things that might not appear obvious from the narrative.

    Even Dan Hodges agreed with me this morning.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1299257518833758208
    Dan Hodges?

    Let's stick with Michael Moore!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    Could be the more tests you do the more positives you get.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Andy_JS said:

    Could be the more tests you do the more positives you get.
    Tests have been relatively static, see the graph posted earlier.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Chris Grayling has left the Intelligence and Security Committee.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    The exact same thing was said, including by me, last year at this time. Maybe it is finally right this time, but those who said it before were absolutely wrong then so I'd be less than confident when the exact same thing is said now.
  • kle4 said:

    The exact same thing was said, including by me, last year at this time. Maybe it is finally right this time, but those who said it before were absolutely wrong then so I'd be less than confident when the exact same thing is said now.
    Well Johnson capitulated last time, let's see
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    UK is up to 16m tests now, only China, Russia, USA and India have done more testing.

    In simple terms the French recorded 4% positive tests and 7,500 cases - so there were 187,500 tests.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    nichomar said:

    MaxPB said:
    It’s going to go that way across Europe I doubt that the UK will avoid it.
    Quite
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    If we're doing hellish commutes then one reason (aside from the work and the executives) that Crossrail became unbearable for me is because my commute was over 2 hours each way every day.

    I left the house at 6.30am to drive to the station. I got the 6.44 train. I got to Waterloo at 7.50am. And then I got the Waterloo & City to bank and Central Line to Stratford, where I walked to TfL's offices - usually getting there about 8.35-8.40am. I then left in the evening about 5.45-6pm and got home about 8pm.

    Every day. Five days a week. And with a newborn baby.

    And there will have been many people far worse off than me.

    This will look like sleeping hung over a rope or working 14-hour shifts six days a week (sans health and safety) in a Victorian factory to future generations.

    But, like anything else, if it's what you have to do at the time you just get on with it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    If you watch one thing on Netflix this year, watch Rising Phoenix about the paralympics.

    Stunning.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    eristdoof said:

    Firsty-first-first.

    Have a cold beer if you’re firsty
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited August 2020

    kle4 said:

    The exact same thing was said, including by me, last year at this time. Maybe it is finally right this time, but those who said it before were absolutely wrong then so I'd be less than confident when the exact same thing is said now.
    Well Johnson capitulated last time, let's see
    The capitulation, or however one chooses to interpret it, doesn't detract from the point and in fact makes it - a lot of people said that he wanted no deal and he proved he didn't, they (including me) were just flat out wrong. No ifs, ands or buts, it was said he wanted no deal (or was prepared to risk it) and he didn't. How he chose to avoid it is another matter and certainly up for debate.

    Now, it may be that he was playing the long game and wanted no deal at this point all along, or is more prepared to risk it now he has a majority behind him, but once again we see over and over that he wants no deal, and if he does capitulate it will once again prove that the confident assertions he is going for no deal on purpose is, again, flat out wrong. Given we were wrong before, I think the assertion needs to be less confident even though it is certainly possible.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    As an aside despite the headline figures for Spanish new cases it’s having little impact on individuals unless you want to be out until 5 in the morning at a disco or were planning a ‘0’ birthday party with over 30 people where you can’t have live music or any dancing or karaoke. To the bulk of us British immigrants it can be an occasional pain but really of no consequence. The hospitals are functioning and all levels of health care seem to be working, propped up by telephone consultations. It’s as I say every evening you stay safe by obeying the rules and avoiding those places that don’t. That’s as true here as every where else.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The exact same thing was said, including by me, last year at this time. Maybe it is finally right this time, but those who said it before were absolutely wrong then so I'd be less than confident when the exact same thing is said now.
    Well Johnson capitulated last time, let's see
    The capitulation, or however one chooses to interpret it, doesn't detract from the point and in fact makes it - a lot of people said that he wanted no deal and he proved he didn't, they (including me) were just flat out wrong. No ifs, ands or buts, it was said he wanted no deal (or was prepared to risk it) and he didn't. How he chose to avoid it is another matter and certainly up for debate.

    Now, it may be that he was playing the long game and wanted no deal at this point all along, or is more prepared to risk it now he has a majority behind him, but once again we see over and over that he wants no deal, and if he does capitulate it will once again prove that the confident assertions he is going for no deal on purpose is, again, flat out wrong. Given we were wrong before, I think the assertion needs to be less confident even though it is certainly possible.
    I hope I am wrong.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited August 2020
    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Not much to argue with in this thread (famous last words)

    https://twitter.com/GeorgePeretzQC/status/1299396628156219398?s=20
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    dr_spyn said:

    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905

    Bad news?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s a plausible and worrying scenario that plays out in that case:

    Trump is the clear winner on the night, but Biden doesn’t concede.
    Over the next few days, as the counts complete including postall votes, Biden becomes the winner and Trump doesn’t concede.
    Trump accuses certain States and Dem governors of making up the numbers/stuffing ballot boxes with postal votes/other cheating.
    The whole damn mess ends up in several court cases heading into December, and Bush v Gore starts to look like a little administrative difficulty.
    Well let's hope not.

    Watched the Moore clip, thanks for posting. Yes, eloquent and prescient. And a very romantic notion of why candidate Donald Trump appealed to the WWC in 2016. It reminded me of Owen Jones's video predicting Leave would win the EU Ref. Owen is also prone to romanticizing the working class. But at least he has never come over as a Brexit fan. Moore sounds there like a Trumpster. Sounds like he was buying the crap. And perhaps he was in 2016. Certainly he was right to predict that many would in the Rust Belt. But this is 2020 and imo the actual experience of Trump in office for 4 years means that fewer will fall for the con this time. Course I could be doing what I keep pointing out you are doing - projecting - but I really do expect a clear loss for Trump this time and right now the evidence supports this view.
    There’s actually a bit of context to the clip, it was five minutes of a much longer programme, where he does come out forcefully and unequivocally for a Clinton victory.

    I think too many Biden supporters know they’re going to win because the other guy is evil, and are working backwards from there. I’m trying to read more widely around the election and point out things that might not appear obvious from the narrative.

    Even Dan Hodges agreed with me this morning.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1299257518833758208
    Dan Hodges?

    Let's stick with Michael Moore!
    "Will this mix of pageantry and prevarication work? My stomach is in knots, maybe just because the stakes are so high, maybe because Trump offers the kind of simple answers and jingoism that are often most seductive to voters, maybe because, in the midst of all the malarkey, there was a cunning recognition of where Biden and Democrats are weak."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/opinion/trump-rnc-speech.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Big day, Peru overtakes Belgium to head the deaths/1m count on worldometer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    dr_spyn said:

    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905

    New worlds to conquer, no doubt.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    nichomar said:

    The best hope for the UK Is a seriously shitty bank holiday followed by a lousy autumn.

    I'm not sure how. We keep being told to panic about the crap weather coming and people all hunkering down inside and spreading the Plague. Now you appear to be suggesting that we need to panic about the crap weather not coming and people going out and about spreading the Plague.

    Personally, my best guess (and it's obviously a guess, and everyone else is guessing as well) is that the fact we appear still to be more-or-less keeping a lid on the thing is down to a combination of WFH (and its resultant effect on the public transport system,) the Government having done a very good job of terrifying and guilt tripping so many people - especially the elderly - into hiding at home and not being a burden to the NHS, and perhaps cultural differences (young people going out at night less frequently, especially in large groups.) The weather won't make much difference to any of that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    RobD said:

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    So about a quarter of the UK value?
    That's the UK - people tested per week
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    So about a quarter of the UK value?
    That's the UK - people tested per week
    Ah thanks, thought it was odd they also used the two pillars :D
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    The fact that Texas is trending purple is something to give the US Republicans sleepless nights. And this is a long term trend...
    There’s lots of Californians moving to Texas because California is turning to sh....

    There’s lots of Texans telling the newcomers not to bring their sh.. politics with them!
    The Californians moving to Texas are the batshit crazy Christian nutters. They ain’t votign Democrat
  • dr_spyn said:

    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905

    it is not bad news though
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    These are so fun - even clear proof doesn't dent the confidence of those spreading a lie, they stick to their guns. It doesn't matter if it is wildly implausible, so long as the waters are muddied.
    https://twitter.com/JoeRRyle/status/1299388824959803394
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Foxy said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905

    New worlds to conquer, no doubt.
    Someone needs to be education secretary next week
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    If we're doing hellish commutes then one reason (aside from the work and the executives) that Crossrail became unbearable for me is because my commute was over 2 hours each way every day.

    I left the house at 6.30am to drive to the station. I got the 6.44 train. I got to Waterloo at 7.50am. And then I got the Waterloo & City to bank and Central Line to Stratford, where I walked to TfL's offices - usually getting there about 8.35-8.40am. I then left in the evening about 5.45-6pm and got home about 8pm.

    Every day. Five days a week. And with a newborn baby.

    And there will have been many people far worse off than me.

    This will look like sleeping hung over a rope or working 14-hour shifts six days a week (sans health and safety) in a Victorian factory to future generations.

    But, like anything else, if it's what you have to do at the time you just get on with it.

    That’s the same timing my commute from Somerset would be if the train was on time, there were times I got to the office had a coffee checked everything was ok then turned around to go home. Then there were the special days of 9/11 and 7/7 when you didn’t have a clue what was going on. Lad brook Grove made life interesting as did the storms that washed out parts of Taunton to Reading line leaving me to drive to Bath to get the train. It was financially worth it by a long way but took its toll after eight years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    RobD said:

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    So about a quarter of the UK value?
    That's the UK - people tested per week
    for a comparison with France -

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-tests-per-thousand-people-smoothed-7-day?tab=chart&country=FRA~GBR

    but that is international data - so who knows what metrics are really being compared.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    The fact that Texas is trending purple is something to give the US Republicans sleepless nights. And this is a long term trend...
    There’s lots of Californians moving to Texas because California is turning to sh....

    There’s lots of Texans telling the newcomers not to bring their sh.. politics with them!
    The Californians moving to Texas are the batshit crazy Christian nutters. They ain’t votign Democrat
    Texas polls are pretty neck and neck.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    The fact that Texas is trending purple is something to give the US Republicans sleepless nights. And this is a long term trend...
    There’s lots of Californians moving to Texas because California is turning to sh....

    There’s lots of Texans telling the newcomers not to bring their sh.. politics with them!
    This California? https://www.statista.com/statistics/306775/california-gdp-growth/#:~:text=In 2019, the real GDP of California grew,real GDP in California from 2000 to 2019
    The one that grew by 4.7% in 2019 and has consistently outgrown the US economy for practically ever?
    SF is horrific - consequence of overtaxation. Huge homeless problem. Drugs everywhere. And Democrat gerrymandering
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    dr_spyn said:

    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905

    it is not bad news though
    Shows how committed to the committee he was.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    kinabalu said:

    See that despite the passionate pleading of me and others yesterday, the photo of Starmer has not been changed for a more representative hunkier one.

    And we call ourselves a community.

    It's pretty representative - it's his head in good lighting conditions. It's not as if he's just got out of bed, or he's in the middle of ravaging a bacon sandwich a la Milliband. It's not even candid; it looks like a professional headshot.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The exact same thing was said, including by me, last year at this time. Maybe it is finally right this time, but those who said it before were absolutely wrong then so I'd be less than confident when the exact same thing is said now.
    Well Johnson capitulated last time, let's see
    The capitulation, or however one chooses to interpret it, doesn't detract from the point and in fact makes it - a lot of people said that he wanted no deal and he proved he didn't, they (including me) were just flat out wrong. No ifs, ands or buts, it was said he wanted no deal (or was prepared to risk it) and he didn't. How he chose to avoid it is another matter and certainly up for debate.

    Now, it may be that he was playing the long game and wanted no deal at this point all along, or is more prepared to risk it now he has a majority behind him, but once again we see over and over that he wants no deal, and if he does capitulate it will once again prove that the confident assertions he is going for no deal on purpose is, again, flat out wrong. Given we were wrong before, I think the assertion needs to be less confident even though it is certainly possible.
    I remember that Jeremy Corbyn supposedly was deviously working for No Deal too. All nonsense. No Deal is a Not Happening event. Always has been. If I'm wrong I'll donate £50 to Toby Young's "Free Speech Union".
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    The fact that Texas is trending purple is something to give the US Republicans sleepless nights. And this is a long term trend...
    There’s lots of Californians moving to Texas because California is turning to sh....

    There’s lots of Texans telling the newcomers not to bring their sh.. politics with them!
    This California? https://www.statista.com/statistics/306775/california-gdp-growth/#:~:text=In 2019, the real GDP of California grew,real GDP in California from 2000 to 2019
    The one that grew by 4.7% in 2019 and has consistently outgrown the US economy for practically ever?
    This surprises me.

    Maybe all the talk of people fed up with the state and leaving is just that.
    The Californian economy has actually overtaken that of the UK. With the behemoths in Silicon Valley still growing like start ups it will continue to pummel ahead.

    None of this necessarily makes it a nice place to live of course. The stories about the homeless in San Fran, for example, are heartbreaking.
    You're right. Los Angeles, with its perfect weather, its sea and mountains and great restaurants, is all absolute hell hole.
    Nah. Definitely flawed.

    Now 50 miles south...
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited August 2020
    Watching the re run of the Edinburgh Military Tattoo, what a wonderful celebration of world wide positive cultures and music.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good weekend to bury bad news. Grayling off.

    https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1299416922044411905

    New worlds to conquer, no doubt.
    Someone needs to be education secretary next week
    Oh God.

    Is anyone offering odds on Williamson's replacement?
  • Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    Thanks though I'm guessing they're UK figures since it says Pillar One and Pillar Two?

    Does anyone have the French figures to compare?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    nichomar said:

    Watching the re run of the Edinburgh Military Tattoo, what a wonderful celebration of world wide positive cultures and music.

    It was better back in the day...

    Still fun though
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226



    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    There’s a plausible and worrying scenario that plays out in that case:

    Trump is the clear winner on the night, but Biden doesn’t concede.
    Over the next few days, as the counts complete including postall votes, Biden becomes the winner and Trump doesn’t concede.
    Trump accuses certain States and Dem governors of making up the numbers/stuffing ballot boxes with postal votes/other cheating.
    The whole damn mess ends up in several court cases heading into December, and Bush v Gore starts to look like a little administrative difficulty.
    Well let's hope not.

    Watched the Moore clip, thanks for posting. Yes, eloquent and prescient. And a very romantic notion of why candidate Donald Trump appealed to the WWC in 2016. It reminded me of Owen Jones's video predicting Leave would win the EU Ref. Owen is also prone to romanticizing the working class. But at least he has never come over as a Brexit fan. Moore sounds there like a Trumpster. Sounds like he was buying the crap. And perhaps he was in 2016. Certainly he was right to predict that many would in the Rust Belt. But this is 2020 and imo the actual experience of Trump in office for 4 years means that fewer will fall for the con this time. Course I could be doing what I keep pointing out you are doing - projecting - but I really do expect a clear loss for Trump this time and right now the evidence supports this view.
    There’s actually a bit of context to the clip, it was five minutes of a much longer programme, where he does come out forcefully and unequivocally for a Clinton victory.

    I think too many Biden supporters know they’re going to win because the other guy is evil, and are working backwards from there. I’m trying to read more widely around the election and point out things that might not appear obvious from the narrative.

    Even Dan Hodges agreed with me this morning.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1299257518833758208
    Dan Hodges?

    Let's stick with Michael Moore!
    "Will this mix of pageantry and prevarication work? My stomach is in knots, maybe just because the stakes are so high, maybe because Trump offers the kind of simple answers and jingoism that are often most seductive to voters, maybe because, in the midst of all the malarkey, there was a cunning recognition of where Biden and Democrats are weak."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/opinion/trump-rnc-speech.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
    I'm nervous too but as founder of TrumpToast I have a duty not to show it. ☺
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Scott_xP said:

    nichomar said:

    Watching the re run of the Edinburgh Military Tattoo, what a wonderful celebration of world wide positive cultures and music.

    It was better back in the day...

    Still fun though
    Don’t start that argument please it’s just great fun and at times moving. I love the drum head ceremony when they do it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kinabalu said:

    See that despite the passionate pleading of me and others yesterday, the photo of Starmer has not been changed for a more representative hunkier one.

    And we call ourselves a community.

    It's pretty representative - it's his head in good lighting conditions. It's not as if he's just got out of bed, or he's in the middle of ravaging a bacon sandwich a la Milliband. It's not even candid; it looks like a professional headshot.
    Major lol at @Omnium's observation that "he looks as if he wants to be spotty but can't afford the spots."

    I say we change it for the knee-taking one.
  • RobD said:

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    So about a quarter of the UK value?
    That's the UK - people tested per week
    for a comparison with France -

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-tests-per-thousand-people-smoothed-7-day?tab=chart&country=FRA~GBR

    but that is international data - so who knows what metrics are really being compared.
    Wow so we're consistently testing double the number of people per capita than the French are? Despite them having a higher case incidence rate at the minute?

    That's quite remarkable. Goes to support my theory than NHS Test & Trace is a big reason why the UK isn't seeing a second surge yet. Thanks to Dido Harding, Hancock and everyone else working with it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    I hold Robby Mook personally responsible for Trump.

    Absolute fucking grade a moron.

    https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook-pm/2019/02/26/robby-mooks-new-gig-400029

    Does this impact chance of Dems winning the house...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Does anyone have any figures on how many tests the French are doing daily?

    For us to be doing 185,000 tests - even accounting for some people being tested more than once in the same day - is quite a remarkable amount for Test & Trace. I wonder how that compares?

    People tested per week -

    image
    Thanks though I'm guessing they're UK figures since it says Pillar One and Pillar Two?

    Does anyone have the French figures to compare?
    7379 new cases
    3.9% positivity rate
    Must be 189,205 tests, give or take a rounding error.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    nichomar said:

    Don’t start that argument please it’s just great fun and at times moving. I love the drum head ceremony when they do it.

    It is great fun. I speak from personal experience. Which is why I know it was better 30 years ago...
This discussion has been closed.