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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    The fact that Texas is trending purple is something to give the US Republicans sleepless nights. And this is a long term trend...
    There’s lots of Californians moving to Texas because California is turning to sh....

    There’s lots of Texans telling the newcomers not to bring their sh.. politics with them!
    This California? https://www.statista.com/statistics/306775/california-gdp-growth/#:~:text=In 2019, the real GDP of California grew,real GDP in California from 2000 to 2019
    The one that grew by 4.7% in 2019 and has consistently outgrown the US economy for practically ever?
    This surprises me.

    Maybe all the talk of people fed up with the state and leaving is just that.
    The Californian economy has actually overtaken that of the UK. With the behemoths in Silicon Valley still growing like start ups it will continue to pummel ahead.

    None of this necessarily makes it a nice place to live of course. The stories about the homeless in San Fran, for example, are heartbreaking.
    You're right. Los Angeles, with its perfect weather, its sea and mountains and great restaurants, is all absolute hell hole.
    Some parts of it are, others aren't. The shitty parts of LA felt like a third world nation, it was very odd.
    Indeed, Beverley Hills and Bel Air and Malibu and Santa Monica and the Pacific Palisades maybe paradise, much of downtown and South and East Los Angeles is full of crime and homelessness and poverty
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Alistair said:

    MikeL said:

    Biden has shortened from approx 1.93 to now 1.85 in the last hour or so.

    I put it down to my post.
    I have to admit I had another dabble too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way.
    Now all you can hear them saying is Black Lives Matter, which the white working classes are hearing as Only Black Lives Matter, and WWC Lives Don’t Matter.
    Projecting your instincts again.

    And don't get me wrong you may be on the money - but we await the evidence.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    What d'ye think the motivations are for this now constant 'it's much, much closer than ya think' narrative being pushed? I can see filthy libs wanting to keep their base on its toes but lots of it also from the right. Just morale?
    Facts, if it was a Biden landslide we were heading for he should be at least 5 to 10%+ ahead in the battleground states, not just 1% ahead
    Depends what we're calling a landslide.

    How much EC margin qualifies iyo?
    150 EC votes or more as per 2008, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1972, 1964, 1956, 1952, 1944 etc
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    FPT
    Mango said:



    Precisely, which is the problem. Asymmetric devolution was always insane, the West Lothian Question always needed an answer.

    It's quite amusing how you can see the logic here (quite rightly), and yet be so blind about the ludicrous and loathsome FPTP. I wonder if it's because the Tories benefit in both cases? Anything to advance the Glorious 1000-year Rentier Reich?

    A question for you: in the late 80s and early 90s quite a number of European countries, some of them relatively well-educated and with long traditions of science, literature and learning, had the chance to design their electoral systems from scratch. How many of them opted for FPTP?

    Anyway, enjoy your eternal system. It will never change here until democratic society collapses, which it will play a part in hastening.
    I am a long way from being a tory fan boy and I despise pr for much the same reasons. I am damn sure if in 2015 if cameron had needed those pesky lib dems again he would have traded away the referendum like a shot in the coalition deal. In fact I almost suspect that was the plan.

    I think I would also be right in suspecting that in 2015 a lot of tory votes were purely because he had put a referendum in the manifesto.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way.
    Now all you can hear them saying is Black Lives Matter, which the white working classes are hearing as Only Black Lives Matter, and WWC Lives Don’t Matter.
    Projecting your instincts again.

    And don't get me wrong you may be on the money - but we await the evidence.
    Did you watch the Michael Moore video I posted earlier on this thread?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    In the 538 "Poll of Polls", Biden is at 50.9%. On August 28th 2016, Ms Clinton was on 43.2%.

    Think about that for a second.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MikeL said:

    Biden has shortened from approx 1.93 to now 1.85 in the last hour or so.

    That was me.

    Went in with a couple of blueys.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
  • Any news on the Yorkshire lockdown zone? Are we able to rejoin polite society yet?

    Has Yorkshire ever joined polite society?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,728
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Moore's brand of politics relies on being pessimistic about both main parties. Obviously there's no position for him as left-wing truth teller about Trump given almost the entire Democratic Party, a raft of generally independent commentators and even some Republicans correctly think the man is a dangerous lunatic, so he's loudly down on Biden.

    Which is not to say he might not be right on the result - it's going to be a nasty, tumultuous campaign and the Republicans have some advantages that somewhat soften the impact of very good polling for the Dems. But his position would be immovable even if Biden were Obama, JFK, and Oprah rolled into one.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Iceberg ahead!!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    What d'ye think the motivations are for this now constant 'it's much, much closer than ya think' narrative being pushed? I can see filthy libs wanting to keep their base on its toes but lots of it also from the right. Just morale?
    Facts, if it was a Biden landslide we were heading for he should be at least 5 to 10%+ ahead in the battleground states, not just 1% ahead
    The definition of a set of Battleground States should result in a sample where the two candidates are at a dead heat when the result of the election is a dead heat.

    This supposed set of Battleground States doesn't do that. Biden wins comfortably if he's tied in this set of states.
    Trump won the Electoral College 304 to 227 with a 3% lead in those battleground states in 2016.

    If Biden leads in those states by just 1% that is only a 2% swing from Trump to Biden since 2016 which would see Biden pick up Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida and maybe Arizona and North Carolina.

    That might see him win but would still be only around the same margin for Biden that Obama had over Romney in 2012 and much closer than the 2008 EC lead Obama had over McCain and it only takes a small bounce for Trump after his convention for it to be neck and neck again.

    You also have to remember a lot of state polls in 2016 underestimated the Trump voteshare compared to what he actually got
    It's a much wider margin than 2016, even though it's closer than 2016 in the so-called Battleground States. How does that make sense?

    Conclusion - they chose a set of states to give a closer result in the poll. Just because they call them the Battleground States we don't have to accept that.
    They are, all the top 10 closest Trump states are included as well as some of the closest Hillary states like Minnesota, New Hampshire, Nevada and New Mexico
    Given how far away Texas, Iowa and Ohio are from the tipping point state than you should also be including states like Virginia and Colorado to make it balanced.

    What they've done is to skew it to fool people into thinking it's closer than it is.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
  • I might pogo to work
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    The fact that Texas is trending purple is something to give the US Republicans sleepless nights. And this is a long term trend...
    There’s lots of Californians moving to Texas because California is turning to sh....

    There’s lots of Texans telling the newcomers not to bring their sh.. politics with them!
    This California? https://www.statista.com/statistics/306775/california-gdp-growth/#:~:text=In 2019, the real GDP of California grew,real GDP in California from 2000 to 2019
    The one that grew by 4.7% in 2019 and has consistently outgrown the US economy for practically ever?
    This surprises me.

    Maybe all the talk of people fed up with the state and leaving is just that.
    The Californian economy has actually overtaken that of the UK. With the behemoths in Silicon Valley still growing like start ups it will continue to pummel ahead.

    None of this necessarily makes it a nice place to live of course. The stories about the homeless in San Fran, for example, are heartbreaking.
    You're right. Los Angeles, with its perfect weather, its sea and mountains and great restaurants, is all absolute hell hole.
    Ah but you're rich Robert. For the poor it is not so nice.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2020
    The whiff of panic on here today is tangible as reality seeps into carefully constructed bubbles.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited August 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    If you put a uniform swing on the 2016 result to put it on a knife-edge, then the states that are within 5% of that knife-edge are:
    Arizona
    Florida
    Georgia
    Maine
    Michigan
    Minnesota
    Nebraska 2nd
    Nevada
    New Hampshire
    North Carolina
    Pennsylvania
    Wisconsin
    You can argue demographic change would shift this about a bit, but not to justify adding Texas, Ohio and Iowa. Bit baffled that New Mexico was included, too.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    edited August 2020

    I might pogo to work

    Or with a probability approaching 100% you might not.

    You've not mentioned lawn-mowers yet.

    Edit: Or submarines! Submarining to work would be almost as cool as my earlier airships idea.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    edited August 2020

    The whiff of panic on here today is tangible as reality seeps into carefully constructed bubbles.

    This will be magnified x1,000 by the wailing of hard left Wokeristas on here if Trump wins!

    :lol:
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    My set of battleground states still has a bit of a skew due to how they're distributed, but they're close enough that if Trump leads in an aggregate poll of them he wins overall.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    Any news on the Yorkshire lockdown zone? Are we able to rejoin polite society yet?

    Has Yorkshire ever joined polite society?
    I might have to defend my fellow Northerners there (Having been told yesterday being slightly north of Guildford makes me a Northerner. Still haven't bought my flat cap yet though)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
    I will gladly bet it will be closer than 2016 in the Electoral College, say 3-1
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Difficult to conduct such research, though.
    The questions in that survey essentially prompt respondents to consider misleading responses.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way.
    Now all you can hear them saying is Black Lives Matter, which the white working classes are hearing as Only Black Lives Matter, and WWC Lives Don’t Matter.
    Projecting your instincts again.

    And don't get me wrong you may be on the money - but we await the evidence.
    Did you watch the Michael Moore video I posted earlier on this thread?
    Not yet but I do plan to.

    I don't have a high opinion of him though. Notwithstanding that he can be insightful at times.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    E-bike? Not a good idea.

    Take E. Get on a bike. End up in hospital.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited August 2020

    Iceberg ahead!!
    If you apply that correction (Biden +5.4% / Trump + 10.1%) nationally the result is

    Biden 52.3 / Trump 46.8 using RCP
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    And the same with Theresa May in 2017. For all the narrative about a disastrous campaign and her being unpopular it just isn't true. A 20% leap in the Tory vote on top of a 2015 vote that gave them their first majority in 23 years is not a crap performance from someone unpopular.

    But like America we don't have a national vote. Piling up votes in safe seats and narrowly losing others is crap targeting. Where both the Biden and Trump campaigns have it right is that their base hates the other base. But the soft voters and the middle ground? They can stampede away from Trump and he can still win if they don't do so equally.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
    I will gladly bet it will be closer than 2016 in the Electoral College, say 3-1
    OK so I will be £20 @ 3/1 that the Electoral college will not be closer than in 2016. So if it is closer than 2016 I will pay you £20 - if it isn't closer than in 2016 you will pay me £60.

    Is that agreed?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Age, or "people who have (larger?) homes"

    https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1299365614314717184?s=20
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    I know vv little about polling, could someone enlighten me....

    When voters indicate they would be untruthful does this mean:

    1. They fall in to the don't knows (a white lie)
    2. They fall into the opposing candidates column (a deliberate mistruth)

    I presume that polling methodology must be accounting for the majority of this error through leading questions i.e 'who do you think your neighbour is voting for' and known discrepancies from previous elections.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Another fairly well documented case of re-infection (and quite severe the second time round).

    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1299342270177726464
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    In the 538 "Poll of Polls", Biden is at 50.9%. On August 28th 2016, Ms Clinton was on 43.2%.

    Think about that for a second.

    I thought about it but I'm already at the limit of my bankroll.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Ave_it said:

    The whiff of panic on here today is tangible as reality seeps into carefully constructed bubbles.

    This will be magnified x1,000 by the wailing of hard left Wokeristas on here if Trump wins!

    :lol:
    I dare not post what I really think about this election as I am unsure whether it is based on reason or emotion.

    I suspect its the latter!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
  • https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1299365614314717184

    Some interesting data here.

    Young people do seem to have the highest rate of struggle but I would argue I "struggle" but I'm still not wishing to get back to the office.

    Still, interesting
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    The whiff of panic on here today is tangible as reality seeps into carefully constructed bubbles.

    That's not fair, I've been panicking about Trump the whole year at least.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Age, or "people who have (larger?) homes"

    https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1299365614314717184?s=20

    Some evidence to back up what I have thought all along.

    Let young people go back to their lives.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    Pro_Rata said:

    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
    I guess I'm one of the people that wouldn't mind a bit of Empire back - especially if I could be Viceroy of India.

    However one thing that we need to fall in with the Euro mob on is the metric system. I'll hate to see mph go, but go it must.

    I gave someone directions the other day, and said it was 200yds up the road - I then realised I really don't judge things in yards, and the recipient of my wisdom was undoubtedly baffled.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    What d'ye think the motivations are for this now constant 'it's much, much closer than ya think' narrative being pushed? I can see filthy libs wanting to keep their base on its toes but lots of it also from the right. Just morale?
    Facts, if it was a Biden landslide we were heading for he should be at least 5 to 10%+ ahead in the battleground states, not just 1% ahead
    Depends what we're calling a landslide.

    How much EC margin qualifies iyo?
    150 EC votes or more as per 2008, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1972, 1964, 1956, 1952, 1944 etc
    Aha - so that's bang on my current call. Trump to lose by about 150. Not much buffer for me there. If he loses but not quite by that I won't be able to call it a landslide. That would be irritating. But ok it's good to know the rules upfront.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1299365614314717184

    Some interesting data here.

    Young people do seem to have the highest rate of struggle but I would argue I "struggle" but I'm still not wishing to get back to the office.

    Still, interesting

    I don't think it's age, I think its seniority!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I know vv little about polling, could someone enlighten me....

    When voters indicate they would be untruthful does this mean:

    1. They fall in to the don't knows (a white lie)
    2. They fall into the opposing candidates column (a deliberate mistruth)

    I presume that polling methodology must be accounting for the majority of this error through leading questions i.e 'who do you think your neighbour is voting for' and known discrepancies from previous elections.
    On the 'who do you think the neighbours are voting for' trump has a lead over Biden.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Nigelb said:

    Another fairly well documented case of re-infection (and quite severe the second time round).

    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1299342270177726464

    That’s incredibly worrying.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Pro_Rata said:

    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
    (Google's and answers own question on good old SABRE roads)

    - They are probably not exact 100 metres
    - Where roads have routed differently from plan or rebuilt (e.g. A1(M) new sections) they've probably been stretched out or contracted rather than renumbered.
    - They replaced half furlong (100.56m) markers and may be marked in Kms but still spaced in furlongs/miles.

    Britain, eh?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    Age, or "people who have (larger?) homes"

    https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1299365614314717184?s=20

    Considering about a third of those aged 25 to 29 year olds are still living with parents or grandparents that cuts down on the likelihood of it all being housing. Nor do you need a huge space to wfh like some are making out. I live in a one room appartment and manage quite happily in a space thats about 180 square feet
  • Older people don't find WFH a struggle yet want everyone to go back to the office, wtf lol
  • https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1299257023633162240

    Labour praising the last Labour Government, can't have that!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
    I will gladly bet it will be closer than 2016 in the Electoral College, say 3-1
    OK so I will be £20 @ 3/1 that the Electoral college will not be closer than in 2016. So if it is closer than 2016 I will pay you £20 - if it isn't closer than in 2016 you will pay me £60.

    Is that agreed?
    Yes
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    https://twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1299365614314717184

    Some interesting data here.

    Young people do seem to have the highest rate of struggle but I would argue I "struggle" but I'm still not wishing to get back to the office.

    Still, interesting

    It's just another case of whingeing snowflake Millennials.

    Best ignored.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited August 2020
    Omnium said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
    I guess I'm one of the people that wouldn't mind a bit of Empire back - especially if I could be Viceroy of India.

    However one thing that we need to fall in with the Euro mob on is the metric system. I'll hate to see mph go, but go it must.

    I gave someone directions the other day, and said it was 200yds up the road - I then realised I really don't judge things in yards, and the recipient of my wisdom was undoubtedly baffled.

    Ireland did that about 15 years ago.

    The speed limit on the M7 out of Dublin was 120, but I was damned if I could get my rental car to go much over 110. :D
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1299257023633162240

    Labour praising the last Labour Government, can't have that!

    Have you not got the memo? Under new management.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Grandiose said:
    Obvious is the point.
  • DavidL said:

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1299257023633162240

    Labour praising the last Labour Government, can't have that!

    Have you not got the memo? Under new management.
    I voted for it, I am well aware
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    edited August 2020

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1299257023633162240

    Labour praising the last Labour Government, can't have that!

    Between 1997 and 2010, Labour trashed the UK economy, which dropped millions into poverty and wrecked the lives of children across the country.

    Preventing Labour getting at the levers of power since is an achievement the British people can be proud of.
  • Omnium said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
    I guess I'm one of the people that wouldn't mind a bit of Empire back - especially if I could be Viceroy of India.

    As long you were elected by Universal Suffrage, why not? :lol: :
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another fairly well documented case of re-infection (and quite severe the second time round).

    https://twitter.com/VirusesImmunity/status/1299342270177726464

    That’s incredibly worrying.
    Well, it's a bit worrying.
    If we start seeing hundreds of cases like this, then it would be incredibly worrying.

    And of course there's the question whether vaccines provide a more comprehensive immunity (which is certainly possible).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
    (Google's and answers own question on good old SABRE roads)

    - They are probably not exact 100 metres
    - Where roads have routed differently from plan or rebuilt (e.g. A1(M) new sections) they've probably been stretched out or contracted rather than renumbered.
    - They replaced half furlong (100.56m) markers and may be marked in Kms but still spaced in furlongs/miles.

    Britain, eh?
    "Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial entanglements." :)
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
    I will gladly bet it will be closer than 2016 in the Electoral College, say 3-1
    OK so I will be £20 @ 3/1 that the Electoral college will not be closer than in 2016. So if it is closer than 2016 I will pay you £20 - if it isn't closer than in 2016 you will pay me £60.

    Is that agreed?
    Yes
    Thank you, its a bet.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1299257023633162240

    Labour praising the last Labour Government, can't have that!

    Is DfiD that well regarded anyway?

    I'd presumed that the aid was mistargeted, ineffectual, and expensive. (Much like Labour)

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    What d'ye think the motivations are for this now constant 'it's much, much closer than ya think' narrative being pushed? I can see filthy libs wanting to keep their base on its toes but lots of it also from the right. Just morale?
    Facts, if it was a Biden landslide we were heading for he should be at least 5 to 10%+ ahead in the battleground states, not just 1% ahead
    Depends what we're calling a landslide.

    How much EC margin qualifies iyo?
    150 EC votes or more as per 2008, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1972, 1964, 1956, 1952, 1944 etc
    Aha - so that's bang on my current call. Trump to lose by about 150. Not much buffer for me there. If he loses but not quite by that I won't be able to call it a landslide. That would be irritating. But ok it's good to know the rules upfront.
    Under 200 ECVs ?
    My guess (FWIW) is a bit over 200 - and I only have pin money on that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Omnium said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    And Biden has a 1% lead?

    How many of those 15 states were won by Hillary?
    4.75 (allowing for Maine) I think.

    Texas and Georgia are clearly there for distortion purposes. Good spot by @Alistair
    A very good spot. It transforms the narrative.

    And begs the question - why is Michael Moore ramping for Trump?

    Is it because he wants him to win so he can make some angry films about how how awful he is?
    He’s probably trying to stop the Democrats getting as complacent as they were in 2016, drum it into them that they need to work the marginal states hard.
    Yes, Moore correctly spotted Hillary was in trouble in the rustbelt in October 2016 well before polling day and Trump was making inroads.

    She largely ignored him and focused on Arizona and Texas and Florida and big fundraisers in California

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10/31/the-lead-talk-clinton-emails-michael-moore.cnn
    He husband also told her to get a new message out to rural, white voters and the rust belt and campaign there.

    He was ignored.

    iirc the data kids running the campaign said he was so last century.
    The data kids basically said the white working class were so last century too, not surprisingly they responded in an unfavourable way. Bill correctly spotted the message from the white working class revolt of Brexit could happen in the US, the Clinton campaign just redoubled on minorities and college educated coastal voters.


    'Bill didn't buy the excuse that Comey would cost Hillary the election,' said the source. 'As far as he was concerned, all the blame belonged to [campaign manager Robby] Mook, [campaign chairman John] Podesta and Hillary because they displayed a tone-deaf attitude about the feeble economy and its impact on millions and millions of working-class voters.

    'Bill was so red in the face during his conversation with Hillary that I worried he was going to have a heart attack. He got so angry that he threw his phone off the roof of his penthouse apartment and toward the Arkansas River.'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html
    Hillary's team basically repeated the same mistake they'd made against Barack Obama in the primaries 12 years earlier: piling up votes but not delegates.
    Bill always was a ton of miles better....
    I realise the US has resisted the metric system, but still.
    On the 405, as you leave Los Angeles towards Ventura, there is one of those Distance To signs that are on motorways/freeways the world over.

    For some incomprehensible reason, it has the distances in both miles and kilometers.
    Proximity to Mexico maybe? Like the "drive on the left" signs near the ports in the UK.

    In tangentially-related measurement news, the US makes heroic strides towards slightly more saner units by finally abolishing one of its foots.
    The 100m markers along the UKs entire motorway network (and the blue signs that have appeared in the last 15 years or so) still get me whenever I become aware of them. Who did that in quite that way and why? I'm sure the emergency services could have worked perfectly well with Imperial markers.

    Is this MacMillan and de Gaulle again?
    I guess I'm one of the people that wouldn't mind a bit of Empire back - especially if I could be Viceroy of India.

    As long you were elected by Universal Suffrage, why not? :lol: :
    If I can count on your vote Sunil then that'll be two. Only several billion to go and I'll romp home.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    E-bike? Not a good idea.

    For cycling round Ilkley Moor ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
    I will gladly bet it will be closer than 2016 in the Electoral College, say 3-1
    OK so I will be £20 @ 3/1 that the Electoral college will not be closer than in 2016. So if it is closer than 2016 I will pay you £20 - if it isn't closer than in 2016 you will pay me £60.

    Is that agreed?
    Yes
    @HYUFD You've been absolubtely done over. Further than 2016 is broadly a 1-3 shot, not a 3-1 one. From Betfair Biden ECVs

    239 or below
    + £19.27

    240-269
    -£60.00

    270-299
    -£60.03

    300-329
    +£19.27
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    And it also justifies concerns about people coming here in the first place. A lot of people know that once they are here it is very difficult for the authorities to do anything about it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    HYUFD said:
    I found the poll. http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/08/16/rel8a.-.2020.pdf

    They count 15 states as battleground states. the list of "battlegrounds" is
    Arizona, Florida,Georgia, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin

    Oh no, Biden is struggling in Texas, he is doomed.

    IF Texas, Iowa and Georgia count as battlegrounds then Trump is fucked.
    They are battlegrounds, all 3 were in the 18 closest states in 2016 and the ten closest states won by Trump.

    There were 32 US states with bigger margins for Trump or Hillary than Texas, Iowa or Georgia had
    Trump won that set of 15 States by an aggregate 3.5%, which provides a bit of context for a 1% Biden lead.
    It suggests the Electoral College will definitely be closer than 2016, however it also suggests Trump could still scrape an EC win
    "Definitely"?

    Do you want a bet? Last time it was 306 to 232 (ignoring faithless electors) so an Electoral College majority of 74.

    If you think it will be definitely closer than 2016 then what odds will you give me for £20 to say that the Electoral College will be less close than that?
    I will gladly bet it will be closer than 2016 in the Electoral College, say 3-1
    OK so I will be £20 @ 3/1 that the Electoral college will not be closer than in 2016. So if it is closer than 2016 I will pay you £20 - if it isn't closer than in 2016 you will pay me £60.

    Is that agreed?
    Yes
    @HYUFD You've been absolubtely done over. Further than 2016 is broadly a 1-3 shot, not a 3-1 one.

    239 or below
    + £19.27

    240-269
    -£60.00

    270-299
    -£60.03

    300-329
    +£19.27
    Well I am not really bothered, it is only £60 at most even if I lose and if I win that is just a bonus but I am confident I will win and it will be very close in the EC ie 240 to 299 EC votes either way
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1299257023633162240

    Labour praising the last Labour Government, can't have that!

    Between 1997 and 2010, Labour trashed the UK economy, which dropped millions into poverty and wrecked the lives of children across the country.

    Preventing Labour getting at the levers of power since is an achievement the British people can be proud of.
    You are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my £5.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    Them activist migrant lawyers have a lot to answer to.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,248

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    Them activist migrant lawyers have a lot to answer to.
    Yes. Some of them do.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
    Quite true but I admit I have no idea why they aren't taken straight from court after a failed appeal and put on a plane. Presumably there is some reason for it and would be curious to know what.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    Them activist migrant lawyers have a lot to answer to.
    Yes. Some of them do.
    Why are the lawyers migrating?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited August 2020
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
    Quite true but I admit I have no idea why they aren't taken straight from court after a failed appeal and put on a plane. Presumably there is some reason for it and would be curious to know what.
    That’s what happens pretty much everywhere else. If you want to appeal, you can do it from abroad and at your own expense.

    The U.K. process never seems to be able to produce a ‘final’ decision.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    And it also justifies concerns about people coming here in the first place. A lot of people know that once they are here it is very difficult for the authorities to do anything about it.
    Indeed. My elder daughter is very active (as a volunteer) in helping those immigrants who are stuck at Calais and tries to set them up with lawyers to assist them either there or in this country if they make it over.

    She tells me that most of the official camps have been closed which has resulted in people rough camping where they can. The approach of the French police is that this is illegal and they will regularly raid them confiscating their tents and sleeping bags, leaving them exposed to the elements with no protection.

    Most of the tents and sleeping bags are provided by charities. I am told that these charities used to "tidy up" after festivals where hundreds of people leave their tents in situ because they can't be arsed taking them home. The lack of festivals this year has resulted in a real shortage of tents.

    The French police are just oafs and their treatment of immigrants in their country is illegal in many respects in that they are not complying with their international obligations but is it any surprise that the UK is thought to be a haven (and, more emotively, something of a soft touch)?

    If these are the choices I vote for being a soft touch but humane and decent but I can't pretend that there are not a lot of people who are going to be annoyed by our failures to act.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited August 2020
    Here's a mad idea: count all the votes at once.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    Sandpit said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
    Quite true but I admit I have no idea why they aren't taken straight from court after a failed appeal and put on a plane. Presumably there is some reason for it and would be curious to know what.
    That’s what happens pretty much everywhere else. If you want to appeal, you can do it from abroad and at your own expense.

    The U.K. process never seems to be able to produce a ‘final’ decision.
    Personally I would make it fail the initial claim > straight to remand so you don't disappear, 3 months to appeal. Then either dont appeal or fail the appeal on the plane.

    Fair to them that gives them sufficient time I would have thought to get an appeal through
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Oh my days. I explicitly asked Betfair not to settle state markets for a while a while back btw for precisely this sort of reason.
    CNN "calling" a state may well be wrong.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited August 2020
    I have been banging on about this for a while. There will be MASSIVE in play opportunities to back Biden at stupid odds for state betting. People need to review quite how much Clinton closed the gap in Penn and Michigan in the days that followed the election.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    Them activist migrant lawyers have a lot to answer to.
    Yes. Some of them do.
    Shocking that HMG and Priti seem to be too cowardly to continue highlighting this. Perhaps they're just become addicted to u turns.

    https://tinyurl.com/y47alfpu
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    RobD said:

    Here's a mad idea: count all the votes at once.
    And, even madder, within a fortnight of the election.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    Here's a mad idea: count all the votes at once.
    Would never catch on. Much better to quickly announce small rural polling stations first before slowly counting large urban centres, preferably over days.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
    Quite true but I admit I have no idea why they aren't taken straight from court after a failed appeal and put on a plane. Presumably there is some reason for it and would be curious to know what.
    One reason is that the Courts have judged that it's not safe to return people to the countries they have come from. For many people the limbo is caused by the refusal to grant refugee status for bureaucratic reasons. It's a Kafkaesque nightmare.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    RobD said:

    Here's a mad idea: count all the votes at once.
    And why not let them count equally? Not that we can really challenge them on that one.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Sandpit said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
    Quite true but I admit I have no idea why they aren't taken straight from court after a failed appeal and put on a plane. Presumably there is some reason for it and would be curious to know what.
    That’s what happens pretty much everywhere else. If you want to appeal, you can do it from abroad and at your own expense.

    The U.K. process never seems to be able to produce a ‘final’ decision.
    They do but it is not the job of the Courts or Tribunals to implement it. It is the job of the Home Office and they have consistently failed to do so for decades, even under people like May and Patel.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm sure everyone would like to take this opportunity to agree with Eleanor Penny of Novara Media.

    https://twitter.com/eleanorkpenny/status/1299332486389002245?s=20

    People have an absolute right not to be harassed but the problem is that the system is simply not delivering results. In the last week the Inner House produced this decision refusing an appeal against the refusal of a judicial review in respect of a Chinese person claiming asylum because he is a member of Falun Gong religion and he fears persecution if he is returned to China.
    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih52.pdf?sfvrsn=0
    Paragraph 3 of the decision notes:
    "In July 2003 an immigration judge refused the appellant’s appeal against the SSHD’s decision to deny him asylum (“the 2003 decision”). The immigration judge held that the appellant’s evidence was unconvincing; his account of having had difficulties with the police in China was disbelieved. The appellant’s appeal rights were exhausted in July 2003.
    He submitted fresh representations in 2011; these were refused in 2014."

    So 17 years after he was determined not to have a case he is still here. 17 years. And we are wasting more time and money on essentially rearguing the same points for at least the third time.

    I mean, what the hell is going on? What is the point of a system that fails to implement its decisions and leaves a person in this country in limbo for a significant percentage of his entire life?

    What these people were doing is wrong but so is a system that so completely fails to implement legally made decisions.
    I don't think Britainfirst were chapping on doors so they could show solidarity with that unfortunate Chinese person.
    No they weren't. They were asking why people who have been determined to be illegal immigrants are still here at our expense. It's a legitimate question notwithstanding their vigilante approach.
    The vigilante approach is what condemns them. They should be questioning the powers to be about why this is the case not doorstepping individuals. We wouldn't think it correct for any other type of crime. For example people going knocking on the doors of those convicted of theft to ask them how dare they broke the law.
    I completely agree. It's just we would hear a lot less from deeply unpleasant people like that if we didn't give them such obvious targets.
    Quite true but I admit I have no idea why they aren't taken straight from court after a failed appeal and put on a plane. Presumably there is some reason for it and would be curious to know what.
    One reason is that the Courts have judged that it's not safe to return people to the countries they have come from. For many people the limbo is caused by the refusal to grant refugee status for bureaucratic reasons. It's a Kafkaesque nightmare.
    Is not it being unsafe to return a prime case for refugee status? I would have thought that would be the only criteria
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    There’s a plausible and worrying scenario that plays out in that case:

    Trump is the clear winner on the night, but Biden doesn’t concede.
    Over the next few days, as the counts complete including postall votes, Biden becomes the winner and Trump doesn’t concede.
    Trump accuses certain States and Dem governors of making up the numbers/stuffing ballot boxes with postal votes/other cheating.
    The whole damn mess ends up in several court cases heading into December, and Bush v Gore starts to look like a little administrative difficulty.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    RobD said:

    Here's a mad idea: count all the votes at once.
    Have you seen how long it takes to count Los Angeles and Seattle votes ?
This discussion has been closed.