Its a characteristic of political cults that, the more extreme they are, the harder they reject objective evidence of their failures, past, present and future.
Presumably this polling was given to Labour before Johnson first requested an early election? Which helps explain why Labour was petrified by that and ran scared in an unprecedented move of an Opposition rejecting an election until they were backed into a corner by Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson agreeing to it first?
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
You get a pass CHB because I don't think you were here when this was widely discussed here, but the editorial line of The Mail has changed due to a change of editor. If I remember correctly, The Mail on Sunday's editorial team, which was always anti-Tory, basically took over the rest of the days. This simple fact should be enough to avoid left wing commentators being agog whenever they put the boot in to Boris, but hey, got to have something to fill Twitter up with I suppose...
» show previous quotes Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
I do believe Hyfud and Justin are cheeks of the same arse, both absolutely barking as well
The mail was quite happy to cheer BoZo when they thought he might not be as crap as he is
During times like elections and in their immediate aftermath papers become more partisan - during midterms which is what we are now they become more critical. Its a natural process that has gone on for as long as I've been alive at the very least and probably much, much longer.
It is bizarre that there is a tone of mockery from England about the idea of Scotland going it alone and creating a currency. That England has gone batshit and is about to hurl itself from the White Cliffs in the sure and certain faith that there is no cliff is just funny.
If the UK was facing a glorious properous future and Scotland was threatening to jump into the unknown then I can see the argument. However, it is the UK about to jump and Scotland trying to stay behind in sanity land.
The SNP will win the election next year promising a referendum vote. The UK will try and refuse. Scotland will hold it anyway. It won't be close. Westminster will accept the inevitable. Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU. England mocks, abuses, insults. And then the newspaper reports of how Scotland is fairing better than rUK...
And down Edinburgh's Royal Mile, there's a triumphant, joyous celebration of civic, European, Scotland's victory against lumpen, bigoted Leaver England. Michel Barnier is guest of honour as he embraces Nicola Sturgeon for the typical gallic kiss on both cheeks. The bells of St Giles ring out - ring- -ring- they seem to get louder and more insistent with each peal - RING- - RING-
RP wakes up and realises it's his alarm.
Can I refer you to mockery? Of my comments: 1. The UK is throwing itself off the cliff 2. The SNP will win the 2021 Holyrood election with a mandate for a referendum 3. The referendum will be held
Those three are reality. Beyond that?
4. Leave will win 60:40 - a projection but based on hardening of the mood tracked by polling 5. Scotland will join the EU. Both sides are up for this, it allows Brussels to flick the Vs at London, Edinburgh gets financial backing 6. rUK will watch in wonder. I don't think no dealers comprehend just how rough this is going to be...
2 is not certain 3 is wrong. Boris has made clear he will block indyref2 whatever the circumstances for the rest of his premiership.
6. Even if Scotland was allowed indyref2 and voted to leave the UK because of No Deal Brexit that means tariffs on all Scottish exports to England and border posts at the Scottish border. 70% of Scottish exports go to England. I don't think Yes supporters comprehend how rough that would be...
2. Nothing is certain in politics. However, your hope of a Unionist grand coalition keeping the nats out of power is a long long shot at best 3. I couldn't give a toss what Shagger has said. He openly lies and contradicts himself anyway so just because he says "I won't put a border down the Irish Sea" doesn't mean he won't then sign a treaty putting a border down the Irish Sea. A Scottish government elected with a clear mandate for a referendum cannot be stopped holding one. Will the army come in and arrest them? Yes it will be unofficial. But when that shows a clear mandate for Independence the UK politically cannot just say no.
As for your comments about the size and heft of the UK, we are about to scale back said heft and cut ourselves off from everyone. As the supplicant in the trading relationships to come you will see just how painful this will be. You can't say "no foreign power can set our laws" and then defend the US congress imposing US food standards and access on the UK so that we have to accept their weevil infested "food". yet you will be on here defending it.
2 If Unionists unite at constituency level anything could happen next year. 3. As Madrid showed in Catalonia a national government can block a nationalist regional government from holding an independence referendum if it wishes. The Tories have a comfortable majority at Westminster and Tory MPs will vote down any indyref2.
I voted Remain and yes I would accept some regulatory alignment for a FTA provided we end free movement and replace it with a points system and do our own trade deals.
However while No Deal would be damaging for the UK economy under 50% of UK exports go to the EU. No Deal followed by Scotland leaving the UK would devastate the Scottish economy as 70% of Scottish exports go to England
Scotland is not Catalonia though. A breakaway region wanting to create a new entity is not the same as a legally recognised and separate nation wanting to dissolve an entity. Glad to see you are supporting the UK's supplication with regards to trade deals though. You telling us all how the US trade deal that gives us far worse terms than our current US trade deal and imposes US standards on the UK is the UK being sovereign and free will be genuinely funny.
Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
Although it should be noted that Spain united considerably more recently than England did.
Agreed. On that basis ,of course, the former independent states of Germany have a stronf case to seek independence.
During times like elections and in their immediate aftermath papers become more partisan - during midterms which is what we are now they become more critical. Its a natural process that has gone on for as long as I've been alive at the very least and probably much, much longer.
LOL
I'll wait while you rewrite history again to try and support your wildly inaccurate assertion
You get a pass CHB because I don't think you were here when this was widely discussed here, but the editorial line of The Mail has changed due to a change of editor. If I remember correctly, The Mail on Sunday's editorial team, which was always anti-Tory, basically took over the rest of the days. This simple fact should be enough to avoid left wing commentators being agog whenever they put the boot in to Boris, but hey, got to have something to fill Twitter up with I suppose...
They weren’t so much anti Tory as anti brexit.
As for Twitter you’re quite right. It’s all about blue ticks spouting crap for likes and retweets.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
Made the first lot of bilberry / apple jam and blackberry vinegar recently. There are still several kg of blackberries on the bush - the job for this afternoon.
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
One of the most disappointing results of the last election was Lavery hanging on to his seat despite, as far as I can recall, a couple of recounts. No one, not even Laura Pidcock, deserved to lose more than he did.
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
During times like elections and in their immediate aftermath papers become more partisan - during midterms which is what we are now they become more critical. Its a natural process that has gone on for as long as I've been alive at the very least and probably much, much longer.
LOL
I'll wait while you rewrite history again to try and support your wildly inaccurate assertion
I'm not rewriting history. We don't live in the USSR with Pravda, in our free market the papers know what sells and that is bad news.
History is on my side. All through history papers of all colours have attacked governments because that is what sells. Bad news sells and anger sells more than anything else for the Mail.
But if you think you could name even one, just one, full Parliamentary period ever where the Mail has never given the government a bad front page I bet you we could find one from that Parliament. Go ahead, name one please - but I won't be holding my breath because I know you're full of shit.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Long term Corbyn, Swinson and the SNP had no veto.
Short term they could say no which would delay it a few weeks - which mattered when it was a case of delaying past Halloween - but long term there was no way to remove the issue from the table.
» show previous quotes Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
I do believe Hyfud and Justin are cheeks of the same arse, both absolutely barking as well
Your cerebral interventions are always so welcome.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Long term Corbyn, Swinson and the SNP had no veto.
Short term they could say no which would delay it a few weeks - which mattered when it was a case of delaying past Halloween - but long term there was no way to remove the issue from the table.
They could have prolonged the Parliamentary stalemate into 2020 - and - although not forseen at the time - by mid-February calling an early election would have been difficult on account of Covid. Any election would also have ceased to be Brexit -dominated.
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
Yeah, you need to be careful where you put those in the winter.
If you get a frost in the pot, you’ll find there’s no fuchsia in it.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Although he had lost his marbles far earlier, of course.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Long term Corbyn, Swinson and the SNP had no veto.
Short term they could say no which would delay it a few weeks - which mattered when it was a case of delaying past Halloween - but long term there was no way to remove the issue from the table.
They could have prolonged the Parliamentary stalemate into 2020 - and - although not forseen at the time - by mid-February calling an early election would have been difficult on account of Covid. Any election would also have ceased to be Brexit -dominated.
Not realistically no they couldn't. The deadline for Brexit to be resolved was 31 January 2020 or we would have had a hard Brexit. The EU were being clear they gave a three month extension so we could sort ourselves our, either have an election or agree a deal. If we'd pissed about for three months neither ratifying the deal nor having an election can you be sure the EU would have unanimously agreed another extension? And for what purpose.
Once Article 50 was extended for three months there was no chance of avoiding the election anymore.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
Thanks.
I'll probably need to keep it in the pot as I have plans for the front of the house, should I be able to keep it, involving a full width loggia with solar panels on top to help keep my front rooms cool in the extreme heat-spells which have become part of our summer.
Unfortunately we are still pursuing probate on mum's will, so I can't really move on that yet.
I'll check that however - there may be scope to add compost as mum had a habit of using broken up EPS insulation / packaging at the bottom to save on compost and reduce weight. Or I can do the "chop off bottom quarter of rootball" thing and 'bottom-dress'.
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
Yeah, you need to be careful where you put those in the winter.
If you get a frost in the pot, you’ll find there’s no fuchsia in it.
It's been where it was for a couple of winters without me even noticing it, so it is probably OK. I could perhaps wrap or cover it.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Yes, he had no choice at that stage. As useless as he was he really had no choice but to go with it. Corbyn was a poor leader for labour but Swinson has to be the most inept leader of a major party in modern times. Terrible judgement.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
Yeah, you need to be careful where you put those in the winter.
If you get a frost in the pot, you’ll find there’s no fuchsia in it.
It's been where it was for a couple of winters without me even noticing it, so it is probably OK. I could perhaps wrap or cover it.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
A rainbow coalition of election losers and Tory rejects couldn't have sustained Parliament for the six months needed to hold a referendum. They didn't have a Parliamentary majority themselves.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
This 'government of national unity' being 100% Remainers I assume.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
Corbyn lost his veto when Swinson and the SNP agreed to the early election.
Long term Corbyn, Swinson and the SNP had no veto.
Short term they could say no which would delay it a few weeks - which mattered when it was a case of delaying past Halloween - but long term there was no way to remove the issue from the table.
They could have prolonged the Parliamentary stalemate into 2020 - and - although not forseen at the time - by mid-February calling an early election would have been difficult on account of Covid. Any election would also have ceased to be Brexit -dominated.
Not realistically no they couldn't. The deadline for Brexit to be resolved was 31 January 2020 or we would have had a hard Brexit. The EU were being clear they gave a three month extension so we could sort ourselves our, either have an election or agree a deal. If we'd pissed about for three months neither ratifying the deal nor having an election can you be sure the EU would have unanimously agreed another extension? And for what purpose.
Once Article 50 was extended for three months there was no chance of avoiding the election anymore.
But none of that obliged Corbyn to go along with overriding the FTPA - that only became inevitable when Swinson and the SNP decided to facilitate the election. As it was , we came right to the very last viable date as far as holding a GE in 2019 was concerned. Had there been no election on 12th December, it is likely that any later Dissolution would not have happened before mid- January implying a Polling Day in late February 2020
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
This 'government of national unity' being 100% Remainers I assume.
Without even having a majority in Parliament that would have been, errr, interesting.
If Labour were forecast 138 seats then to get to 202 seats was actually some achievement, mainly through stopping leakage of Remainers to the LDs when they finally promised EUref2 if they won
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
Aren't you just postponing the Brexit backlash with a GONU? I can't imagine that the remain vote would have increased. I intuit that a GONU inspired referendum would have been seen as both an a front to democracy and to the origonal vote.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
A rainbow coalition of election losers and Tory rejects couldn't have sustained Parliament for the six months needed to hold a referendum. They didn't have a Parliamentary majority themselves.
Only really needed three months: enough time to organise a referendum and make an agreement with the EU, before dissolving themselves and having a GE.
Whatever way you look at it, no one did more to deliver Brexit than Jeremy Corbyn, not even Nigel Farage.
» show previous quotes Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
I do believe Hyfud and Justin are cheeks of the same arse, both absolutely barking as well
Justin and I disagree strongly on most UK domestic politics but I am happy to join him as probably the staunchest Unionists and anti SNP posters on this site, with the possible exception of Casino
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
Aren't you just postponing the Brexit backlash with a GONU? I can't imagine that the remain vote would have increased. I intuit that a GONU inspired referendum would have been seen as both an a front to democracy and to the origonal vote.
By some no doubt, but at the time I believe a majority of people were in favour as the only way of resolving the issue.
If I am correct that day 5 is totally washed out and day 4 only 50 overs long the draw that I suggested was good value at 3.6 this morning looking good.
If those 2 assumptions were correct England require 15 wkts in around 100 overs to force the win.
Current price on draw 2.7 represents a cash out profit of almost £90 so far from this morning.
If Labour were forecast 138 seats then to get to 202 seats was actually some achievement, mainly through stopping leakage of Remainers to the LDs when they finally promised EUref2 if they won
Indeed - and it is likely that polling in April 2017 was just as gloomy for Labour though the LDs were then obviously weaker.
It is bizarre that there is a tone of mockery from England about the idea of Scotland going it alone and creating a currency. That England has gone batshit and is about to hurl itself from the White Cliffs in the sure and certain faith that there is no cliff is just funny.
If the UK was facing a glorious properous future and Scotland was threatening to jump into the unknown then I can see the argument. However, it is the UK about to jump and Scotland trying to stay behind in sanity land.
The SNP will win the election next year promising a referendum vote. The UK will try and refuse. Scotland will hold it anyway. It won't be close. Westminster will accept the inevitable. Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU. England mocks, abuses, insults. And then the newspaper reports of how Scotland is fairing better than rUK...
And down Edinburgh's Royal Mile, there's a triumphant, joyous celebration of civic, European, Scotland's victory against lumpen, bigoted Leaver England. Michel Barnier is guest of honour as he embraces Nicola Sturgeon for the typical gallic kiss on both cheeks. The bells of St Giles ring out - ring- -ring- they seem to get louder and more insistent with each peal - RING- - RING-
RP wakes up and realises it's his alarm.
Can I refer you to mockery? Of my comments: 1. The UK is throwing itself off the cliff 2. The SNP will win the 2021 Holyrood election with a mandate for a referendum 3. The referendum will be held
Those three are reality. Beyond that?
4. Leave will win 60:40 - a projection but based on hardening of the mood tracked by polling 5. Scotland will join the EU. Both sides are up for this, it allows Brussels to flick the Vs at London, Edinburgh gets financial backing 6. rUK will watch in wonder. I don't think no dealers comprehend just how rough this is going to be...
2 is not certain 3 is wrong. Boris has made clear he will block indyref2 whatever the circumstances for the rest of his premiership.
6. Even if Scotland was allowed indyref2 and voted to leave the UK because of No Deal Brexit that means tariffs on all Scottish exports to England and border posts at the Scottish border. 70% of Scottish exports go to England. I don't think Yes supporters comprehend how rough that would be...
2. Nothing is certain in politics. However, your hope of a Unionist grand coalition keeping the nats out of power is a long long shot at best 3. I couldn't give a toss what Shagger has said. He openly lies and contradicts himself anyway so just because he says "I won't put a border down the Irish Sea" doesn't mean he won't then sign a treaty putting a border down the Irish Sea. A Scottish government elected with a clear mandate for a referendum cannot be stopped holding one. Will the army come in and arrest them? Yes it will be unofficial. But when that shows a clear mandate for Independence the UK politically cannot just say no.
As for your comments about the size and heft of the UK, we are about to scale back said heft and cut ourselves off from everyone. As the supplicant in the trading relationships to come you will see just how painful this will be. You can't say "no foreign power can set our laws" and then defend the US congress imposing US food standards and access on the UK so that we have to accept their weevil infested "food". yet you will be on here defending it.
2 If Unionists unite at constituency level anything could happen next year. 3. As Madrid showed in Catalonia a national government can block a nationalist regional government from holding an independence referendum if it wishes. The Tories have a comfortable majority at Westminster and Tory MPs will vote down any indyref2.
I voted Remain and yes I would accept some regulatory alignment for a FTA provided we end free movement and replace it with a points system and do our own trade deals.
However while No Deal would be damaging for the UK economy under 50% of UK exports go to the EU. No Deal followed by Scotland leaving the UK would devastate the Scottish economy as 70% of Scottish exports go to England
Scotland is not Catalonia though. A breakaway region wanting to create a new entity is not the same as a legally recognised and separate nation wanting to dissolve an entity. Glad to see you are supporting the UK's supplication with regards to trade deals though. You telling us all how the US trade deal that gives us far worse terms than our current US trade deal and imposes US standards on the UK is the UK being sovereign and free will be genuinely funny.
Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
Although it should be noted that Spain united considerably more recently than England did.
Agreed. On that basis ,of course, the former independent states of Germany have a stronf case to seek independence.
Bavaria would want independence to be a more conservative, right of centre nation than Germany though, the reverse of why Scottish nationalists want independence from the UK
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
It was my view certainly - the EU had the potential to be great, but was dead set on a path that was increasingly divergent from one that suited us and refused to countenance reform
Without wishing to get into pejorative discussions about whether the UK is "great" or not, but certainly the second part of your statement there is pretty much exactly what I think about Scotland with the UK.
I think that's a valid enough perspective, and really the only reason that a small nation should aim to become independent. But it's a vanishingly small perspective in your movement imo - quaint and eccentric even. Scotland is more stodgily socialist, statist and risk averse than the UK in its political outlook these days. If you're looking for radicalism and reform, the UK is the place to look.
I'm not sure it is *that* vanishingly small, just perhaps phrased differently from other indy supporters. But also I think at least part of the complexity of your second statement is bundled up within the need for indy support to coalesce (more or less) around a single party.
I certainly don't agree with everything the SNP is currently doing (personally I find their response on the coronavirus situation insufficiently nuanced) but they represent the best vehicle (at present) to achieve the independence goal. Then, theoretically at least, post-independence the political party landscape in Scotland will be redrawn sufficiently (albeit not necessarily immediately) for different political perspectives to regain some traction within the context of an indy Scotland.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
But had Polling Day been delayed to late February , Brexit would have faded into the background to be replaced by Covid and the NHS.
One thing which PB saw lat year was LibDem supporters thinking that the 2019 local elections were a great triumph for the party.
It wasn't.
Even with the Conservative and Labour at the height of their shambles the LibDems were still under 20% on a NEV.
There was also a mistaken desire to believe that the Independent voters in 2019 were wannabe LibDems. They weren't.
Plus if Epping Forest is an example there are plenty of LD local but Tory national voters, just because voters in the Home Counties want to stop new housing by voting LD for council does not also mean they wanted to vote LD nationally to stop Brexit
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
But had Polling Day been delayed to late February , Brexit would have faded into the background to be replaced by Covid and the NHS.
I don't remember COVID going mainstream until v-late February and even then it was something that affected others.
Brexit would definitely have been a big thing if a GONU had extended the deadline past January. Can you imagine the rhetoric when a government without a mandate passes extension and second referendum legislation through December and early January.
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
Yeah, you need to be careful where you put those in the winter.
If you get a frost in the pot, you’ll find there’s no fuchsia in it.
It's been where it was for a couple of winters without me even noticing it, so it is probably OK. I could perhaps wrap or cover it.
Serves me right for trying to be subtle.
Aha, I see. It's the long dark teatime of the soul.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
But had Polling Day been delayed to late February , Brexit would have faded into the background to be replaced by Covid and the NHS.
I don't remember COVID going mainstream until v-late February and even then it was something that affected others.
Brexit would definitely have been a big thing if a GONU had extended the deadline past January. Can you imagine the rhetoric when a government without a mandate passes extension and second referendum legislation through December and early January.
In the context of an election campaign the Covid crisis would have come to the fore a few weeks earlier than it did - Opposition politicians and journalists would have ensured that. I am not persuaded that the GONU would have come to anything at all.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
Precisely. They tried to have their cake and eat it too - they stopped Johnson from getting Brexit done and said they'd have another referendum but then refused to campaign on that basis. In which case it begs the question: why stop Johnson?
The only answer I can think of is for the same reason a dog licks its balls.
If Labour were forecast 138 seats then to get to 202 seats was actually some achievement, mainly through stopping leakage of Remainers to the LDs when they finally promised EUref2 if they won
It does seem to me that that is the elephant in the room of TSE's piece. Whilst I agree with his underlying thesis, it is clear that Yougov were substantially off target in predicting how and why Labour would get stuffed. The Lib Dems did not get 44 seats, they got 11. I think Yougov are excellent at polling and you ignore them at your peril but the point here is that they were warning against the wrong thing and had Labour followed their advise and moved to a more anti-Brexit position than they already had they would probably have lost as many if not more seats than they did. The Red Wall did not fall because Labour were too pro-Brexit. Exactly the opposite in fact.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
A rainbow coalition of election losers and Tory rejects couldn't have sustained Parliament for the six months needed to hold a referendum. They didn't have a Parliamentary majority themselves.
Only really needed three months: enough time to organise a referendum and make an agreement with the EU, before dissolving themselves and having a GE.
Whatever way you look at it, no one did more to deliver Brexit than Jeremy Corbyn, not even Nigel Farage.
You're greatly underestimating how long it would take.
Under Electoral Commission rules six months should elapse between Parliamentary approval for a referendum and actually holding the referendum. Parliamentary approval can't be granted in 24 hours either. . . especially since this makeshift government wouldn't have a majority in either the Commons or the Lords.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
But had Polling Day been delayed to late February , Brexit would have faded into the background to be replaced by Covid and the NHS.
I don't remember COVID going mainstream until v-late February and even then it was something that affected others.
Brexit would definitely have been a big thing if a GONU had extended the deadline past January. Can you imagine the rhetoric when a government without a mandate passes extension and second referendum legislation through December and early January.
I don't think a delayed general election would have been that different TBH. Possibly the SNP would have done slightly worse allowing Swinson to narrowly survive and a few extra Scottish Labour MPs to hang on but that's about it.
If Labour were forecast 138 seats then to get to 202 seats was actually some achievement, mainly through stopping leakage of Remainers to the LDs when they finally promised EUref2 if they won
It does seem to me that that is the elephant in the room of TSE's piece. Whilst I agree with his underlying thesis, it is clear that Yougov were substantially off target in predicting how and why Labour would get stuffed. The Lib Dems did not get 44 seats, they got 11. I think Yougov are excellent at polling and you ignore them at your peril but the point here is that they were warning against the wrong thing and had Labour followed their advise and moved to a more anti-Brexit position than they already had they would probably have lost as many if not more seats than they did. The Red Wall did not fall because Labour were too pro-Brexit. Exactly the opposite in fact.
I think that’s absolutely correct and the enthusiastic adopting of a second referendum as a policy, largely foisted on labour by the likes of Starmer, cost labour dear. The leadership was an issue but labour would have lost even with a different leader with its policy platform.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
The election timing was fine. There was no prospect of a GNU and no prospect of reversing Brexit without an election win.
Britain has historically got out of sticky situations by holding elections - 2019 was no different. Delaying would not have done “Remain” any good at all.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
Take Brexit off the table and fight the election on other grounds.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I recall that they tried to squash all the Brexit talk, continuous policy announcements, and an ambiguous position through a final ratification of the negotiations.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
Precisely. They tried to have their cake and eat it too - they stopped Johnson from getting Brexit done and said they'd have another referendum but then refused to campaign on that basis. In which case it begs the question: why stop Johnson?
The only answer I can think of is for the same reason a dog licks its balls.
Labour were listening to far too many of these blue tick fools on twitter telling them that a second referendum was a sure fire winning policy.
I don't think it was in the Queen's Speech which makes sense, Brexit is a higher priority right now.
After the trouble it caused last year you'd think they'd try to get rid of it as quickly as possible because you never know when the same problem might arise again.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
For a time I had thought that was the plan all along. It seemed scuppered by two things.
1) The Tory Brexiteer opposition was more numerous than expected, too high to pass May's deal (even if ones like JRM and Boris eventually realised there was a danger of there being no Brexit).
2) Partly because of the above, which meant a deal would not likely pass, the number of Labour MPs willing to do more than indiciate they might consider backing a deal was too low. No point in putting one's head above the parapet when it would do no good.
Had the Tories not initially thrown their toys out of the pram so much so soon, enough others might have been worn down sufficiently. As it was, there was every reason for no dealers and no Brexit supporters to keep fighting.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
There is a great word used by chess players for this: zugzwang which means being in a position where you can move (so not stalemate) but every possible move puts you in a worse position than you are in currently.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
Yes, I agree too with the first part. That would have been smart politics from labour. Unfortunately the die hard remain faction held sway.
Once we lost the referendum it should all have been about the best deal possible.
We will now Likely end up with no deal and labour are just as much a part of that than the Tories.
I don't think it was in the Queen's Speech which makes sense, Brexit is a higher priority right now.
After the trouble it caused last year you'd think they'd try to get rid of it as quickly as possible because you never know when the same problem might arise again.
Which is why it was in the manifesto I suspect but with an 80 seat majority something would have to go seriously, seriously awry for it to be an urgent priority now.
» show previous quotes Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
I do believe Hyfud and Justin are cheeks of the same arse, both absolutely barking as well
Justin and I disagree strongly on most UK domestic politics but I am happy to join him as probably the staunchest Unionists and anti SNP posters on this site, with the possible exception of Casino
I suggest you award one another medals, although as Scotland hasn't not gone indy yet perhaps bear in mind Harvey Keitel's words to QT in Pulp Fiction? The ones beginning "Let's not start sucking..."
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
If the Corbynites had not been in control of the Labour Party, we would most likely have seen a government of national unity led by Ken Clarke, and they would have organised a second referendum. Corbyn is the genuine hero of Brexit.
This 'government of national unity' being 100% Remainers I assume.
There were a lot of calls for unity around that time because that's the expected language of politics, but everyone knew unity was not possible or sought after. When you have such extreme political division it needs resolution, not unity on an issue it is not possible to unify on.
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
And what does that signify? Elite are elite is not much of a headline, and I'm always confused by such talk whether the ones pushing it intend the full implication of moaning that decision-makers are not, in essence, an exact microcosm of the nation.
Jeremy Corbyn and Next Prime Minister Jo Swinson both made plenty of mistakes but agreeing to an early election it is hard to call one. To be honest they were in a bit of a Checkmate position on that - they'd been backed into a corner and they had no real choice but to either accept Boris's deal and have Brexit proceed - or agree to an early election and seek to win it.
There weren't any other viable options.
There is a great word used by chess players for this: zugzwang which means being in a position where you can move (so not stalemate) but every possible move puts you in a worse position than you are in currently.
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
Brexit was only one challenge faced by Labour in 2019. Another reason the Tories did so well was that people, including some Remainers who might otherwise have gone Lib Dem, were simply terrified of Corbyn actually winning.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
For a time I had thought that was the plan all along. It seemed scuppered by two things.
1) The Tory Brexiteer opposition was more numerous than expected, too high to pass May's deal (even if ones like JRM and Boris eventually realised there was a danger of there being no Brexit).
2) Partly because of the above, which meant a deal would not likely pass, the number of Labour MPs willing to do more than indiciate they might consider backing a deal was too low. No point in putting one's head above the parapet when it would do no good.
Had the Tories not initially thrown their toys out of the pram so much so soon, enough others might have been worn down sufficiently. As it was, there was every reason for no dealers and no Brexit supporters to keep fighting.
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
For a time I had thought that was the plan all along. It seemed scuppered by two things.
1) The Tory Brexiteer opposition was more numerous than expected, too high to pass May's deal (even if ones like JRM and Boris eventually realised there was a danger of there being no Brexit).
2) Partly because of the above, which meant a deal would not likely pass, the number of Labour MPs willing to do more than indiciate they might consider backing a deal was too low. No point in putting one's head above the parapet when it would do no good.
Had the Tories not initially thrown their toys out of the pram so much so soon, enough others might have been worn down sufficiently. As it was, there was every reason for no dealers and no Brexit supporters to keep fighting.
Earlier in the process Corbyn three-line-whipped abstention at key votes in order to say he wasn't backing the Tories but was respecting the referendum result.
If he'd done that on May's deal then it would have gone through. Instead he went for the short term tactic of inflicting heavy defeats in the Commons on May.
Its a classic example of short-term Tactics vs long-term Strategy. The strategy had been to move on from Brexit and discuss other issues, but the short-term tactics became about how to inflict humiliating defeats upon the Tories.
Comments
No second. Like Aston Villa.
There weren't any other viable options.
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1297526235711639553
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1297526282134093827
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1297526284839510017
Being supplicant yesmen to the government, any government, won't sell papers.
Indeed, completely contradictory.
If the withdrawal agreement was fantastic work from UK Gov, then why are we trying to rip it up and accuse the EU of undermining us. We signed it!
https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1295473746162196482
The mail was quite happy to cheer BoZo when they thought he might not be as crap as he is
justin124 said:
» show previous quotes
Catalonia is as entitled to consider itself a separate nation as is Scotland. The same would apply to Wessex- Mercia- Northumbria et al.
I do believe Hyfud and Justin are cheeks of the same arse, both absolutely barking as well
I'll wait while you rewrite history again to try and support your wildly inaccurate assertion
As for Twitter you’re quite right. It’s all about blue ticks spouting crap for likes and retweets.
Made the first lot of bilberry / apple jam and blackberry vinegar recently. There are still several kg of blackberries on the bush - the job for this afternoon.
https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1297510912698527750
#17: What to do with a flowering fuchsia?
I’d keep pinching off the flowers once they’ve finished. Fuchsias can keep on flowering until well into the autumn and early winter, depending on how mild it is.
Then this autumn, give it a bit of a prune. Also check the bottom of the pot to see if the plant is root-bound. If necessary take the plant out and have a look. If it is very root-bound then tease the roots out by pulling at them gently so as to stimulate them into sending out new roots and repot into a slighltly larger pot with fresh compost.
Make sure the pot is on pot feet to avoid frost.
If not root bound, leave it in a sheltered position and think about planting out in the ground next spring.
https://twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1297511764112932865?s=20
History is on my side. All through history papers of all colours have attacked governments because that is what sells. Bad news sells and anger sells more than anything else for the Mail.
But if you think you could name even one, just one, full Parliamentary period ever where the Mail has never given the government a bad front page I bet you we could find one from that Parliament. Go ahead, name one please - but I won't be holding my breath because I know you're full of shit.
Short term they could say no which would delay it a few weeks - which mattered when it was a case of delaying past Halloween - but long term there was no way to remove the issue from the table.
This is what the current Daily Mail editorial team though during the Brexit Referendum when it backed Remain. Something most people tend to forget.
If you get a frost in the pot, you’ll find there’s no fuchsia in it.
Once Article 50 was extended for three months there was no chance of avoiding the election anymore.
I don't think labour had the demographics to fight Cumming's US-style culture war. We saw the party trapped between the old radicalised working class and the new radicalised city class.
The twittératie of ex-New-Labour-Wonks seem to wilfully misunderstand that you cannot 'trangulate' yourself out of a binary question particularity when the answer is so culturally loaded.
I have no idea what direction the party should have followed in 2019. But either way Labour was shafted. The Conservatives had 52% of the electorate to play with, and that majority was broadly distributed across the country. How can you fight that with FPTP?
I'll probably need to keep it in the pot as I have plans for the front of the house, should I be able to keep it, involving a full width loggia with solar panels on top to help keep my front rooms cool in the extreme heat-spells which have become part of our summer.
Unfortunately we are still pursuing probate on mum's will, so I can't really move on that yet.
I'll check that however - there may be scope to add compost as mum had a habit of using broken up EPS insulation / packaging at the bottom to save on compost and reduce weight. Or I can do the "chop off bottom quarter of rootball" thing and 'bottom-dress'.
Its what Corbyn managed to do in 2017, he neutralised the issue of Brexit by saying that Labour would respect the referendum and then spoke on other issues relentlessly. But then the Parliamentary arithmetic changed and Labour were able to inflict defeats upon May and Remainers like Grieve, Swinson and Starmer got high off their own supply.
Once Boris came back with his deal Corbyn should have said that any deal was better than No Deal and ordered his MPs to either vote for the deal or to abstain. Brexit would have happened on Halloween and then there would have been no early election and "Get Brexit Done" could never have been used as a rallying cry.
I don't think it was in the Queen's Speech which makes sense, Brexit is a higher priority right now.
Whatever way you look at it, no one did more to deliver Brexit than Jeremy Corbyn, not even Nigel Farage.
It always was.
If I am correct that day 5 is totally washed out and day 4 only 50 overs long the draw that I suggested was good value at 3.6 this morning looking good.
If those 2 assumptions were correct England require 15 wkts in around 100 overs to force the win.
Current price on draw 2.7 represents a cash out profit of almost £90 so far from this morning.
One thing which PB saw lat year was LibDem supporters thinking that the 2019 local elections were a great triumph for the party.
It wasn't.
Even with the Conservative and Labour at the height of their shambles the LibDems were still under 20% on a NEV.
There was also a mistaken desire to believe that the Independent voters in 2019 were wannabe LibDems. They weren't.
But all Johnson et al had to say was 'Get Brexit Done' and that cut through. You can't win a culture war if you avoid taking part. Especially as so many were willing to engage in the Leave vs Remain fight.
I certainly don't agree with everything the SNP is currently doing (personally I find their response on the coronavirus situation insufficiently nuanced) but they represent the best vehicle (at present) to achieve the independence goal. Then, theoretically at least, post-independence the political party landscape in Scotland will be redrawn sufficiently (albeit not necessarily immediately) for different political perspectives to regain some traction within the context of an indy Scotland.
https://twitter.com/jamiedmaxwell/status/1297534983733747713?s=20
Brexit would definitely have been a big thing if a GONU had extended the deadline past January. Can you imagine the rhetoric when a government without a mandate passes extension and second referendum legislation through December and early January.
423 times.
That beats my EICIPM record!!
https://twitter.com/Pedropedroofsh1/status/1297460626994987010
I am not persuaded that the GONU would have come to anything at all.
The only answer I can think of is for the same reason a dog licks its balls.
Under Electoral Commission rules six months should elapse between Parliamentary approval for a referendum and actually holding the referendum. Parliamentary approval can't be granted in 24 hours either. . . especially since this makeshift government wouldn't have a majority in either the Commons or the Lords.
It doesn't add up.
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
Britain has historically got out of sticky situations by holding elections - 2019 was no different. Delaying would not have done “Remain” any good at all.
Swinson rolled the dice and lost. That is life.
1) The Tory Brexiteer opposition was more numerous than expected, too high to pass May's deal (even if ones like JRM and Boris eventually realised there was a danger of there being no Brexit).
2) Partly because of the above, which meant a deal would not likely pass, the number of Labour MPs willing to do more than indiciate they might consider backing a deal was too low. No point in putting one's head above the parapet when it would do no good.
Had the Tories not initially thrown their toys out of the pram so much so soon, enough others might have been worn down sufficiently. As it was, there was every reason for no dealers and no Brexit supporters to keep fighting.
Edit: and in chess you have to move.
Once we lost the referendum it should all have been about the best deal possible.
We will now Likely end up with no deal and labour are just as much a part of that than the Tories.
https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/1297543623353999360?s=20
https://lockdownsceptics.org/letter-from-a-liberal-sceptic/
SNP will have quite a turnover next year as many of the original class of 1999 are retiring after 22 years.
So far 11 SNP MSPs have announced retirement. An ex SNP is also going. So 12 SNP seats will be vacant for potential newcomers.
5 Lab, 3 Con and 1 Green are also retiring.
https://twitter.com/George_CFC_/status/1296544875492642847
Brexit was only one challenge faced by Labour in 2019. Another reason the Tories did so well was that people, including some Remainers who might otherwise have gone Lib Dem, were simply terrified of Corbyn actually winning.
I agree with every well-written word.
If he'd done that on May's deal then it would have gone through. Instead he went for the short term tactic of inflicting heavy defeats in the Commons on May.
Its a classic example of short-term Tactics vs long-term Strategy. The strategy had been to move on from Brexit and discuss other issues, but the short-term tactics became about how to inflict humiliating defeats upon the Tories.