Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
That is absolutely suberb. Thanks for posting it - everyone should read it.
I agree with every well-written word.
You think cabinet ministers ought in principle to have engrossing outside business interests to provide light relief from their day job?
The whole piece is such self-parodic grauniad wankerdom I suspect it is by Titania McGrath. Sample for those who accurately identify a tl;dr situation here:
" The worst that’s happened to my family is that my son’s school play was cancelled a week before they were due to perform it, his grade 2 drum exam result was partly decided by an algorithm (presumably no consultation with Stewart Copeland or anybody about this) and yoga classes have become a multi-media technical undertaking worthy of NASA, with restrictions, literally, on the way you are allowed to breathe."
I don't think the Stewart Copeland bit is meant as a joke.
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
I’ve asked numerous times, no one seems to know, this is the capital. What is it like in the rest of Belarus ? Politically London’s nothing,like the rest of the nation after all.
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
That is absolutely suberb. Thanks for posting it - everyone should read it.
I agree with every well-written word.
You think cabinet ministers ought in principle to have engrossing outside business interests to provide light relief from their day job?
The whole piece is such self-parodic grauniad wankerdom I suspect it is by Titania McGrath. Sample for those who accurately identify a tl;dr situation here:
" The worst that’s happened to my family is that my son’s school play was cancelled a week before they were due to perform it, his grade 2 drum exam result was partly decided by an algorithm (presumably no consultation with Stewart Copeland or anybody about this) and yoga classes have become a multi-media technical undertaking worthy of NASA, with restrictions, literally, on the way you are allowed to breathe."
I don't think the Stewart Copeland bit is meant as a joke.
She is explaining how her life has not been affected but is empathising with those that it has: "Others will not have been this fortunate. Some people have already lost relationships, business and homes, and even loved ones to suicide."
And: "That the government and SAGE have so gravely miscalculated their response to this virus is a both tragedy and a scandal, a misuse of power and a spectacular failure of ethics. Not only does the response make no sense in relation to the number of deaths over various age groups, but there has been an almost callous disrespect of life quality and the life-altering negative experiences of those affected by the measures taken. How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
If there is ever an enquiry into the Covid response, this should be a key part of it.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
For a time I had thought that was the plan all along. It seemed scuppered by two things.
1) The Tory Brexiteer opposition was more numerous than expected, too high to pass May's deal (even if ones like JRM and Boris eventually realised there was a danger of there being no Brexit).
2) Partly because of the above, which meant a deal would not likely pass, the number of Labour MPs willing to do more than indiciate they might consider backing a deal was too low. No point in putting one's head above the parapet when it would do no good.
Had the Tories not initially thrown their toys out of the pram so much so soon, enough others might have been worn down sufficiently. As it was, there was every reason for no dealers and no Brexit supporters to keep fighting.
Earlier in the process Corbyn three-line-whipped abstention at key votes in order to say he wasn't backing the Tories but was respecting the referendum result.
If he'd done that on May's deal then it would have gone through. Instead he went for the short term tactic of inflicting heavy defeats in the Commons on May.
Its a classic example of short-term Tactics vs long-term Strategy. The strategy had been to move on from Brexit and discuss other issues, but the short-term tactics became about how to inflict humiliating defeats upon the Tories.
I think given how pro remain labour members were he couldn't be seen to simply let it go through. Only the most loyal of his mps would have followed that lead.
But if it squeaked through he was made - remainers would ser he fought it, he could claim he would have let a decent deal through, and he could punish those of his mps who voted it through.
But the tory awkward squad was just too large. They risked all, and in the end it worked for them.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
He has got the Legion d'honneur for his pains though from the French government while he enjoys exile at his French chateau
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
I’ve asked numerous times, no one seems to know, this is the capital. What is it like in the rest of Belarus ? Politically London’s nothing,like the rest of the nation after all.
Good question. It seems taken as given these days that capitals are very unlike the rest if their nation. I'm sure I read about the gov busing in supporters from the countryside previously.
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
I’ve asked numerous times, no one seems to know, this is the capital. What is it like in the rest of Belarus ? Politically London’s nothing,like the rest of the nation after all.
Good question. It seems taken as given these days that capitals are very unlike the rest if their nation. I'm sure I read about the gov busing in supporters from the countryside previously.
Of course Belarus has a population of 9.5 million, of whom over 2.5 million live in Minsk.
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
I’ve asked numerous times, no one seems to know, this is the capital. What is it like in the rest of Belarus ? Politically London’s nothing,like the rest of the nation after all.
Good question. It seems taken as given these days that capitals are very unlike the rest if their nation. I'm sure I read about the gov busing in supporters from the countryside previously.
Of course Belarus has a population of 9.5 million, of whom over 2.5 million live in Minsk.
Plus dictators can often lose the countryside but remain in control of the country, few dictators can survive losing the capital; democrats have an advantage over dictators there.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Well said.
I think the other issue is that for some like Pete those who supported Brexit were the extremists and he sees nothing extreme about Remainers. By definition extremists exist on both sides of a debate and not just one of them and Grieve absolutely was a diehard extremist on the Remain side of the fence - he was even more extreme than Ken Clarke on the Remain side!
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
That is absolutely suberb. Thanks for posting it - everyone should read it.
I agree with every well-written word.
You think cabinet ministers ought in principle to have engrossing outside business interests to provide light relief from their day job?
The whole piece is such self-parodic grauniad wankerdom I suspect it is by Titania McGrath. Sample for those who accurately identify a tl;dr situation here:
" The worst that’s happened to my family is that my son’s school play was cancelled a week before they were due to perform it, his grade 2 drum exam result was partly decided by an algorithm (presumably no consultation with Stewart Copeland or anybody about this) and yoga classes have become a multi-media technical undertaking worthy of NASA, with restrictions, literally, on the way you are allowed to breathe."
I don't think the Stewart Copeland bit is meant as a joke.
She is explaining how her life has not been affected but is empathising with those that it has: "Others will not have been this fortunate. Some people have already lost relationships, business and homes, and even loved ones to suicide."
And: "That the government and SAGE have so gravely miscalculated their response to this virus is a both tragedy and a scandal, a misuse of power and a spectacular failure of ethics. Not only does the response make no sense in relation to the number of deaths over various age groups, but there has been an almost callous disrespect of life quality and the life-altering negative experiences of those affected by the measures taken. How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
If there is ever an enquiry into the Covid response, this should be a key part of it.
I'm not persuaded. Much needs covering in an enquiry about the advice and response. That aspect does not seem one of them to me. What, we need to make sure any advisory bodies or government includes people with personal experience of universal credit applications?
All that says is decision makers (and advisers) are not perfectly representative. Well they never have been or will be it can be so that's not the issue, the issue is ensuring they are able to have appropriate info and ensure they take into account such perspectives or at least the impact on such people. And their personal experience of such will be an irrelevance.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
How do you define "moderate"
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
How do you define "moderate"
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
How do you define "moderate"
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
Please leave my perversions out of this!
So you're unable or unwilling to name any Tory Remainers more extreme than Grieve?
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
How do you define "moderate"
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
Please leave my perversions out of this!
So you're unable or unwilling to name any Tory Remainers more extreme than Grieve?
He was quite patently a diehard Remain extremist.
No you are right I can't because Tory Remaimners are moderate and the swivel-eyed brand of Brexiter within the Conservative party all fit my definition of extremists. Bone, Cash, Bridgen, Francois, Philip Davis, Chope etc. etc! I am quite happy to add JRM and Johnson to that list if you want.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Perhaps Johnson was wearing his Rangers shirt in Coatbridge.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
He was unsafe?!
At the end of two of tyhe most remote roads in Scotland?
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Hmm, lets agree to disagree.
A moderate person voted remain and now accepts the result. Simple democratic view. An extremist, especially one who claims to be a democrat, refuses to accept it and goes almost mad seeking ways to reverse it. The illness has afflicted much of the pre-referendum establishment who have failed to come to terms with the fact that the voters flouted their advice. As a remain voter it has been painful but illuminating to watch.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Hmm, lets agree to disagree.
A moderate person voted remain and now accepts the result. Simple democratic view. An extremist, especially one who claims to be a democrat, refuses to accept it and goes almost mad seeking ways to reverse it. The illness has afflicted much of the pre-referendum establishment who have failed to come to terms with the fact that the voters flouted their advice. As a remain voter it has been painful but illuminating to watch.
Your point is a fair one, and well made. I am still not sure I agree with the earlier assertion re: Grieve however.
The problem with "people should have voted for the deal" was that MPs wisely refuse to vote for something that makes their constituents poorer. Had the Corbyn death cult been prepared to compromise perhaps a customs union or even EEA vote could have been passed.
So no, they were right to reject the deal and roll the electoral dice. It was the only remaining move thanks to the Corbynite intransigence
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
It was a pretty odd sort of confidence vote that did not result in the government falling and was it even declared as such in advance?
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249? Martin Kinsella don't be over-egging this. Johnson was in danger of being ridiculed, not shot at. In Applecross, a beautiful rural village currently swamped by dirty campers, to have the Prime Minister of the UK turn up, put up a tent in a fenced field he had not asked to camp in, and light a fire, is past parody. I feel sorry his holiday was cut short but it was due to Daily Mail intrusion not a security risk. Lots of locals knew who was there before the Daily Mail. Actually we like having him in Scotland, the more the better, because he is such a persuasive argument for the cause of independence.
I remain baffled and genuinely surprised at the lack of reaction from the media and authorities to the 24 stroke flogging given to a Briton in Singapore last week. He certainly deserved severe punishment , but to be caned in that way with a Rotan is pure barbarism - indeed more severe than floggings routinely dished out by SS guards at concentration camps.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249? Martin Kinsella don't be over-egging this. Johnson was in danger of being ridiculed, not shot at. In Applecross, a beautiful rural village currently swamped by dirty campers, to have the Prime Minister of the UK turn up, put up a tent in a fenced field he had not asked to camp in, and light a fire, is past parody. I feel sorry his holiday was cut short but it was due to Daily Mail intrusion not a security risk. Lots of locals knew who was there before the Daily Mail. Actually we like having him in Scotland, the more the better, because he is such a persuasive argument for the cause of independence.
Well said.
It's disturbing how many people on this board froth more than an out of order coffee machine at the merest story. In my early days on PB there was an accidental car fire outside some now forgotten SLAB MPs office - three plastic windows melted. Some people on this board got very excited at this evidence of SNP arson and just would not believe the facts. There were quite a few other incidents, inclouding the infamous Yes sticker and youth gang graffiti on Ian Murray's office, and Labour activists telling Mr Farage to go home and being reported as orchestrated by Mr Salmond et al.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Kinsella is an absolute nutjob, a bit like Oliver. Sad Little Englanders always whining and whinging.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249? Martin Kinsella don't be over-egging this. Johnson was in danger of being ridiculed, not shot at. In Applecross, a beautiful rural village currently swamped by dirty campers, to have the Prime Minister of the UK turn up, put up a tent in a fenced field he had not asked to camp in, and light a fire, is past parody. I feel sorry his holiday was cut short but it was due to Daily Mail intrusion not a security risk. Lots of locals knew who was there before the Daily Mail. Actually we like having him in Scotland, the more the better, because he is such a persuasive argument for the cause of independence.
PS Personally I blame the midges.
Yet TUD and I got blamed by a Unionist for doing down our country when we commented on the midges in August factor ...
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
He was unsafe?!
At the end of two of tyhe most remote roads in Scotland?
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Kinsella is an absolute nutjob, a bit like Oliver. Sad Little Englanders always whining and whinging.
Dr (I believe) Oliver is a Scot, to be more technically pedantic. But I was a bit surprised by his tone in indyref 1 and so on - nto so much his wish to remain in the union, but the tone of his public language at a rtime when he was convener of a major conservation body. Not that he resigned/left/whatever over that, but over something quite different.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
He was unsafe?!
At the end of two of tyhe most remote roads in Scotland?
Who says?
Unionist extremists and nutters.
Some people really have been watching the Wicker Man too often. Which IIRC is set in a firmly Tory constituency.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249? Martin Kinsella don't be over-egging this. Johnson was in danger of being ridiculed, not shot at. In Applecross, a beautiful rural village currently swamped by dirty campers, to have the Prime Minister of the UK turn up, put up a tent in a fenced field he had not asked to camp in, and light a fire, is past parody. I feel sorry his holiday was cut short but it was due to Daily Mail intrusion not a security risk. Lots of locals knew who was there before the Daily Mail. Actually we like having him in Scotland, the more the better, because he is such a persuasive argument for the cause of independence.
Well said.
It's disturbing how many people on this board froth more than an out of order coffee machine at the merest story. In my early days on PB there was an accidental car fire outside some now forgotten SLAB MPs office - three plastic windows melted. Some people on this board got very excited at this evidence of SNP arson and just would not believe the facts. There were quite a few other incidents, inclouding the infamous Yes sticker and youth gang graffiti on Ian Murray's office, and Labour activists telling Mr Farage to go home and being reported as orchestrated by Mr Salmond et al.
It was not cut short anyway , he left for flight Thursday and check out day was Friday , hence why he had to leave Thursday or otherwise stay in a hotel. These people are not right in the head, it is all PR by morons for morons , hence Kinsella frothing at the mouth.
It was not cut short anyway , he left for flight Thursday and check out day was Friday , hence why he had to leave Thursday or otherwise stay in a hotel. These people are not right in the head, it is all PR by morons for morons , hence Kinsella frothing at the mouth.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
He was unsafe?!
At the end of two of tyhe most remote roads in Scotland?
Who says?
Yep. Difficult to think of a spot in the UK that would be more easy to offer protection than Applecross.
I remain baffled and genuinely surprised at the lack of reaction from the media and authorities to the 24 stroke flogging given to a Briton in Singapore last week. He certainly deserved severe punishment , but to be caned in that way with a Rotan is pure barbarism - indeed more severe than floggings routinely dished out by SS guards at concentration camps.
Is it really surprising?
1) He's a drug dealer, they get very little sympathy from the public.
2) He's a former public schoolboy, the public think we enjoy a good caning/spanking.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
The problem with "people should have voted for the deal" was that MPs wisely refuse to vote for something that makes their constituents poorer. Had the Corbyn death cult been prepared to compromise perhaps a customs union or even EEA vote could have been passed.
So no, they were right to reject the deal and roll the electoral dice. It was the only remaining move thanks to the Corbynite intransigence
Corbyn was not intransigent (at least, not on this issue). Labour offered a splash-and-dash, one issue GNU but Jo Swinson refused because the LibDems can't count. Swinson forgot half her MPs were defectors, not elected as LibDems, and the only route to revoking Article 50 ran through Labour.
A year ago today I made my second visit to Wemyss Bay station (the first was roughly a year earlier). Got talking to a really friendly Scottish bloke (and fellow rail enthusiast) in the station bar. The station bookshop was also very interesting.
"How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
That is absolutely suberb. Thanks for posting it - everyone should read it.
I agree with every well-written word.
You are welcome. It is excellent.
"It made me feel as though I’d gone to bed on March 19th as a bleeding heart lefty liberal and woken up on the 20th as a rabid right wing libertarian. I don’t understand why people can’t see that caring about the economy is caring about poverty. Concern about civil liberties is central to fighting oppression. Awareness about mental health is as important as statistical analysis of physical health. Come on, my liberal friends. This is as woke as you can get. Wake up. And stay woke! "
The problem with "people should have voted for the deal" was that MPs wisely refuse to vote for something that makes their constituents poorer. Had the Corbyn death cult been prepared to compromise perhaps a customs union or even EEA vote could have been passed.
So no, they were right to reject the deal and roll the electoral dice. It was the only remaining move thanks to the Corbynite intransigence
Corbyn was not intransigent (at least, not on this issue). Labour offered a splash-and-dash, one issue GNU but Jo Swinson refused because the LibDems can't count. Swinson forgot half her MPs were defectors, not elected as LibDems, and the only route to revoking Article 50 ran through Labour.
Corbyn offered a government led by Corbyn. Which needed Tory remainers to back it and they wouldn't. So that wasn't an option - it's only purpose was to create a stab in the back legend with which to attack the Labour MPs who also refused to back it.
A year ago today I made my second visit to Wemyss Bay station (the first was roughly a year earlier). Got talking to a really friendly Scottish bloke (and fellow rail enthusiast) in the station bar. The station bookshop was also very interesting.
I'm not surprised. It's a fantastic place - up there with stations such as Great Malvern and Stamford for the pleasure of its architecture, but far more OTT.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Kinsella is an absolute nutjob, a bit like Oliver. Sad Little Englanders always whining and whinging.
Dr (I believe) Oliver is a Scot, to be more technically pedantic. But I was a bit surprised by his tone in indyref 1 and so on - nto so much his wish to remain in the union, but the tone of his public language at a rtime when he was convener of a major conservation body. Not that he resigned/left/whatever over that, but over something quite different.
I remain baffled and genuinely surprised at the lack of reaction from the media and authorities to the 24 stroke flogging given to a Briton in Singapore last week. He certainly deserved severe punishment , but to be caned in that way with a Rotan is pure barbarism - indeed more severe than floggings routinely dished out by SS guards at concentration camps.
Is it really surprising?
1) He's a drug dealer, they get very little sympathy from the public.
2) He's a former public schoolboy, the public think we enjoy a good caning/spanking.
I wouldn’t even have known about it if I had not seen it on here.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Kinsella is an absolute nutjob, a bit like Oliver. Sad Little Englanders always whining and whinging.
Mental health slurs. Pathetic.
As for being a ‘little englander’ whatever that means. My ancestry is not English. If Scots want independence you can have it for me. Good luck solving the currency issue.
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
I'm in a rural Aberdeenshire village. The locals cannot be more welcoming
Kinsella is an absolute nutjob, a bit like Oliver. Sad Little Englanders always whining and whinging.
Mental health slurs. Pathetic.
As for being a ‘little englander’ whatever that means. My ancestry is not English. If Scots want independence you can have it for me. Good luck solving the currency issue.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
I’m not a Tory. I cant answer your question. He should have been. you should read it. It is clear Mr Salmond is the victim of a political stitch up. Why wont the nationalist regime in Edinburgh release the advice they received as asked for ?
The problem with "people should have voted for the deal" was that MPs wisely refuse to vote for something that makes their constituents poorer. Had the Corbyn death cult been prepared to compromise perhaps a customs union or even EEA vote could have been passed.
So no, they were right to reject the deal and roll the electoral dice. It was the only remaining move thanks to the Corbynite intransigence
Corbyn was not intransigent (at least, not on this issue). Labour offered a splash-and-dash, one issue GNU but Jo Swinson refused because the LibDems can't count. Swinson forgot half her MPs were defectors, not elected as LibDems, and the only route to revoking Article 50 ran through Labour.
Corbyn offered a government led by Corbyn. Which needed Tory remainers to back it and they wouldn't. So that wasn't an option - it's only purpose was to create a stab in the back legend with which to attack the Labour MPs who also refused to back it.
You're right but was a GNU really ever a reasonable option? I have my doubts it ever was likely to happen.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
I’m not a Tory. I cant answer your question. He should have been. you should read it. It is clear Mr Salmond is the victim of a political stitch up. Why wont the nationalist regime in Edinburgh release the advice they received as asked for ?
Your comment was in the context of politicians being taken to court and found guilty, and was necessarily read in that sense.
I remain baffled and genuinely surprised at the lack of reaction from the media and authorities to the 24 stroke flogging given to a Briton in Singapore last week. He certainly deserved severe punishment , but to be caned in that way with a Rotan is pure barbarism - indeed more severe than floggings routinely dished out by SS guards at concentration camps.
Is it really surprising?
1) He's a drug dealer, they get very little sympathy from the public.
2) He's a former public schoolboy, the public think we enjoy a good caning/spanking.
I wouldn’t even have known about it if I had not seen it on here.
A quick google finds Sky, the Sun and Mail covered it. Maybe others.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
I remain baffled and genuinely surprised at the lack of reaction from the media and authorities to the 24 stroke flogging given to a Briton in Singapore last week. He certainly deserved severe punishment , but to be caned in that way with a Rotan is pure barbarism - indeed more severe than floggings routinely dished out by SS guards at concentration camps.
Is it really surprising?
1) He's a drug dealer, they get very little sympathy from the public.
2) He's a former public schoolboy, the public think we enjoy a good caning/spanking.
Caning at public schools ended in 1999.Moreover, a Judicial caning in Singapore is in no way comparable to a school punishment. The caner will have been a strong Martial Arts trained guy who would be able to remove the skin from this fellow's buttocks literally strip by strip. He really will be marked for life. There are pictures on the internet of former prisoners showing marks from 6 stroke canings received 10 years earlier. This Briton suffered 24 lashes.There was a much stronger response in the US back in 1994 when Michael Fay was given just 4 strokes.
The problem with "people should have voted for the deal" was that MPs wisely refuse to vote for something that makes their constituents poorer. Had the Corbyn death cult been prepared to compromise perhaps a customs union or even EEA vote could have been passed.
So no, they were right to reject the deal and roll the electoral dice. It was the only remaining move thanks to the Corbynite intransigence
To be fair CU would have passed had it not been for Lucas and TIG.
EEA/CM2.0 could also have passed, there should have been more support for it
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
Do you think Mr Salmond is guilty or innocent? Go on, tell us all what you are hinting, and get the site closed down, why don't you?
I linked to an article in the herald Scotsman.
As for my view. The man has been tried and the court has passed judgment.
Your comment was in the specific context of [Tory] politicians being found guilty of crimes in court and therefore read exactly as if you implied that SNP politicians were also guilty. It didn't say so much - but even hints of that kind, unintended as you sai this was, can go down very poorly.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
It was a pretty odd sort of confidence vote that did not result in the government falling and was it even declared as such in advance?
Yes it was declared as such in advance - and it would have led to the government falling and an early election (like prior such confidence votes) but for the Fixed Term Parliament Act and the Opposition voting against the election.
I think I said at the time - albeit not here I don't think - that if Labour, TIG, Greens, Tories had got behind CM2.0/EEA from the moment the vote came in, we would have left on that scenario. We should have got behind that from day 1.
Instead we offered a sort of unicorn Brexit which wasn't possible.
EEA was deliverable and workable - and with May as weak as she was, it would have passed and could have been implemented.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
I’m not a Tory. I cant answer your question. He should have been. you should read it. It is clear Mr Salmond is the victim of a political stitch up. Why wont the nationalist regime in Edinburgh release the advice they received as asked for ?
Your comment was in the context of politicians being taken to court and found guilty, and was necessarily read in that sense.
No it wasn’t. It was in the context of legally embarrassing issues for governments. If you want to misconstrue to labour a point please do.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
How do you define "moderate"
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
Please leave my perversions out of this!
So you're unable or unwilling to name any Tory Remainers more extreme than Grieve?
He was quite patently a diehard Remain extremist.
No you are right I can't because Tory Remaimners are moderate and the swivel-eyed brand of Brexiter within the Conservative party all fit my definition of extremists. Bone, Cash, Bridgen, Francois, Philip Davis, Chope etc. etc! I am quite happy to add JRM and Johnson to that list if you want.
Cash etc were less extreme than Grieve. Cash when a confidence motion was called voted for Maastricht - Grieve did not vote for a deal under a confidence vote. Grieve is even more extreme than Cash.
What makes Grieve more extreme than Cash considering that as per the referendum Brexiteering is the moderate opinion and Remaining is the minority one?
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
I’m not a Tory. I cant answer your question. He should have been. you should read it. It is clear Mr Salmond is the victim of a political stitch up. Why wont the nationalist regime in Edinburgh release the advice they received as asked for ?
Your comment was in the context of politicians being taken to court and found guilty, and was necessarily read in that sense.
No it wasn’t. It was in the context of legally embarrassing issues for governments. If you want to misconstrue to labour a point please do.
It was in the context of Tory pols being had up - embarrasing for the party, not so much the UK Government. There is a difference between the two.
And when I say this sort of comment can have unfortunate resilts I'm talking about the moderators and the site host.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
Do you think Mr Salmond is guilty or innocent? Go on, tell us all what you are hinting, and get the site closed down, why don't you?
I linked to an article in the herald Scotsman.
As for my view. The man has been tried and the court has passed judgment.
Your comment was in the specific context of [Tory] politicians being found guilty of crimes in court and therefore read exactly as if you implied that SNP politicians were also guilty. It didn't say so much - but even hints of that kind, unintended as you sai this was, can go down very poorly.
No, it is in the context of Issues of legality that are embarrassing for govts. Hence my comment ‘talk about embarrassing’.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
I’m not a Tory. I cant answer your question. He should have been. you should read it. It is clear Mr Salmond is the victim of a political stitch up. Why wont the nationalist regime in Edinburgh release the advice they received as asked for ?
Your comment was in the context of politicians being taken to court and found guilty, and was necessarily read in that sense.
No it wasn’t. It was in the context of legally embarrassing issues for governments. If you want to misconstrue to labour a point please do.
It was in the context of Tory pols being had up - embarrasing for the party, not so much the UK Government. There is a difference between the two.
And when I say this sort of comment can have unfortunate resilts I'm talking about the moderators and the site host.
Seriously, you’re an idiot if you read that into it.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Hmm, lets agree to disagree.
A moderate person voted remain and now accepts the result. Simple democratic view. An extremist, especially one who claims to be a democrat, refuses to accept it and goes almost mad seeking ways to reverse it. The illness has afflicted much of the pre-referendum establishment who have failed to come to terms with the fact that the voters flouted their advice. As a remain voter it has been painful but illuminating to watch.
A moderate Remainer now accepts the result but voting Remain does not make one a moderate, it is the minority position. Moderate in this country is voting Leave but wanting a deal too.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
Lavery was right to slag off YouGove. They're all Tories obviously, so when they suggested seats like Wansbeck could go Tory they should have listened to him when he converted 2015's tiny 11k majority into a massive Corbyn landslide majority of 814.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
No - Leavers said during the Referendum explicitly that we would not be staying in the EEA. It was explicit Vote Leave policy that we would leave the Single Market.
Would still have made sense for Remainers to seek that afterwards though. But Leavers (and Cameron's government and Remain campaigners too) explicitly said that was not an option during the Referendum.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
It was strongly rejected by Boris Johnson because it would make Brexit pointless, so there was no political reason for opponents of Brexit to support it.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
It was strongly rejected by Boris Johnson because it would make Brexit pointless, so there was no political reason for opponents of Brexit to support it.
The political reason for opponents of Brexit to support is it was the weakest version of Brexit available.
Lukashenko seems worryingly limpet-like. Is it going to take some horrific (more horrific than has taken place so far) clash between protestors and security forces to break the deadlock? Wasn't it the massacre in Timisoara that was the catalyst for Ceaușescu's end?
I’ve asked numerous times, no one seems to know, this is the capital. What is it like in the rest of Belarus ? Politically London’s nothing,like the rest of the nation after all.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
No - Leavers said during the Referendum explicitly that we would not be staying in the EEA. It was explicit Vote Leave policy that we would leave the Single Market.
Would still have made sense for Remainers to seek that afterwards though. But Leavers (and Cameron's government and Remain campaigners too) explicitly said that was not an option during the Referendum.
Daniel Hannon - "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the SM"
Nigel - "wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway"
Is Scotland becoming unwelcoming to the English ? We saw blatant bigotry towards the English during the brexit debates. Nationalists shouting abuse at English drivers going over the border and now this from a leading Scottish celebrity. https://twitter.com/thecoastguy/status/1297251525094453249?s=21
He was unsafe?!
At the end of two of tyhe most remote roads in Scotland?
Who says?
There are folk who think that The Wicker Man is a documentary.
Considering the purpose of Brexit as campaigned for was to take back control of our laws, money and borders and that campaigners explicitly said we would leave the Single Market . . . and the EEA would keep us in the Single Market and mean we do not control our laws, money and borders . . . your claim is quite debatable.
Many Brexit supporters, especially on this site Mr Tyndall, did support it but during the Referendum campaign it was explicitly ruled out by Johnson and other Leave campaigners.
I remain baffled and genuinely surprised at the lack of reaction from the media and authorities to the 24 stroke flogging given to a Briton in Singapore last week. He certainly deserved severe punishment , but to be caned in that way with a Rotan is pure barbarism - indeed more severe than floggings routinely dished out by SS guards at concentration camps.
Is it really surprising?
1) He's a drug dealer, they get very little sympathy from the public.
2) He's a former public schoolboy, the public think we enjoy a good caning/spanking.
Caning at public schools ended in 1999.Moreover, a Judicial caning in Singapore is in no way comparable to a school punishment. The caner will have been a strong Martial Arts trained guy who would be able to remove the skin from this fellow's buttocks literally strip by strip. He really will be marked for life. There are pictures on the internet of former prisoners showing marks from 6 stroke canings received 10 years earlier. This Briton suffered 24 lashes.There was a much stronger response in the US back in 1994 when Michael Fay was given just 4 strokes.
The Mail emphasises his intelligence. If this is true then he is intelligent enough to know what he is risking, and intelligent enough to understand the nature of the 'wrong crowd' which, rather predictably his family claim he got involved with. In truth of course he may have been part of that same wrong 'crowd' himself. If you are bright and involved in drugs and in Singapore the other quality you need is courage. The system of punishments is designed so that only the most brave will risk it.
There's your Tories for you: Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
You obviously did not read it you halfwitted cretin. He was found to be innocent whereas above and Charlie Elphicke: Why did it take so long to bring ex-MP to justice? were not. I could post Tories all day PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
I’m not a Tory. I cant answer your question. He should have been. you should read it. It is clear Mr Salmond is the victim of a political stitch up. Why wont the nationalist regime in Edinburgh release the advice they received as asked for ?
Your comment was in the context of politicians being taken to court and found guilty, and was necessarily read in that sense.
No it wasn’t. It was in the context of legally embarrassing issues for governments. If you want to misconstrue to labour a point please do.
It was in the context of Tory pols being had up - embarrasing for the party, not so much the UK Government. There is a difference between the two.
And when I say this sort of comment can have unfortunate resilts I'm talking about the moderators and the site host.
Seriously, you’re an idiot if you read that into it.
Your words were so gnomic that was the only way to read it.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Hmm, lets agree to disagree.
A moderate person voted remain and now accepts the result. Simple democratic view. An extremist, especially one who claims to be a democrat, refuses to accept it and goes almost mad seeking ways to reverse it. The illness has afflicted much of the pre-referendum establishment who have failed to come to terms with the fact that the voters flouted their advice. As a remain voter it has been painful but illuminating to watch.
A moderate Remainer now accepts the result but voting Remain does not make one a moderate, it is the minority position. Moderate in this country is voting Leave but wanting a deal too.
It is not clear that Remain is the minority opinion any more. Polling suggests otherwise, though obviously would need a referendum to be sure.
Leave has singularly failed to convince that the choice was the right one.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
No - Leavers said during the Referendum explicitly that we would not be staying in the EEA. It was explicit Vote Leave policy that we would leave the Single Market.
Would still have made sense for Remainers to seek that afterwards though. But Leavers (and Cameron's government and Remain campaigners too) explicitly said that was not an option during the Referendum.
Daniel Hannon - "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the SM"
Nigel - "wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway"
I wouldn't have minded EEA, or really anything between out and full in. Don't think I'd have even minded full in that much if Cameron's 'negotiation' was more than a sham, and the direction of travel was clearly one of defending the UK's interests within the EU. But that wasn't what happened. Now we're in the position we're in, I think a clean break is the best answer.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
No - Leavers said during the Referendum explicitly that we would not be staying in the EEA. It was explicit Vote Leave policy that we would leave the Single Market.
Would still have made sense for Remainers to seek that afterwards though. But Leavers (and Cameron's government and Remain campaigners too) explicitly said that was not an option during the Referendum.
Daniel Hannon - "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the SM"
Nigel - "wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway"
Fake or out of context quotes, or quotes from before the referendum campaign.
Cameron, Gove, Johnson, Clegg, Osborne and Leadsom all explicitly said we would Leave the Single Market.
I think Boris could get away with a FTA that maintains some regulatory alignment as long as it regains control of our fishing waters, ends free movement and allows our own trade deals.
Any further concessions and yes there would be a mass exodus of Leavers back from the Tories to the Brexit Party again
If I am correct that day 5 is totally washed out and day 4 only 50 overs long the draw that I suggested was good value at 3.6 this morning looking good.
If those 2 assumptions were correct England require 15 wkts in around 100 overs to force the win.
Current price on draw 2.7 represents a cash out profit of almost £90 so far from this morning.
Thanks for the tip. I got on the draw at 4.1. Slight odd-on now. I`ll let it run.
To be honest I don't understand why EEA wasn't reasonable to any side when it represented what Nigel originally wanted (and Hannon) and would have respected the closeness of the result
No - Leavers said during the Referendum explicitly that we would not be staying in the EEA. It was explicit Vote Leave policy that we would leave the Single Market.
Would still have made sense for Remainers to seek that afterwards though. But Leavers (and Cameron's government and Remain campaigners too) explicitly said that was not an option during the Referendum.
Daniel Hannon - "absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the SM"
Nigel - "wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway"
I wouldn't have minded EEA, or really anything between out and full in. Don't think I'd have even minded full in that much if Cameron's 'negotiation' was more than a sham, and the direction of travel was clearly one of defending the UK's interests within the EU. But that wasn't what happened. Now we're in the position we're in, I think a clean break is the best answer.
If the question is do we want to be a lot poorer and a lot hungrier
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
This universe. He refused to honour the referendum result, a completely undemocratic extremist.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
Absolute nonsense. The Conservative Party is a vastly poorer institution for the removal of Grieve and Co.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
No Corbyn was on the far left extreme. Who was more extreme left wing than Corbyn within the party?
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
You are making this up as you go along. Yes Corbyn was extreme and no Grieve was not extreme. One could barely find anyone more moderate than Grieve.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
How do you define "moderate"
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
Please leave my perversions out of this!
So you're unable or unwilling to name any Tory Remainers more extreme than Grieve?
He was quite patently a diehard Remain extremist.
No you are right I can't because Tory Remaimners are moderate and the swivel-eyed brand of Brexiter within the Conservative party all fit my definition of extremists. Bone, Cash, Bridgen, Francois, Philip Davis, Chope etc. etc! I am quite happy to add JRM and Johnson to that list if you want.
Cash etc were less extreme than Grieve. Cash when a confidence motion was called voted for Maastricht - Grieve did not vote for a deal under a confidence vote. Grieve is even more extreme than Cash.
What makes Grieve more extreme than Cash considering that as per the referendum Brexiteering is the moderate opinion and Remaining is the minority one?
I've been banging my head against this wall for a couple of hours now. It is beginning to hurt.
Labour should have quietly allowed the Northern MPs to vote for the deal and pushed it through. Would have split the Tory party for good
I'm assuming you mean May's deal?
I agree with you, that would have been very smart politics. It is what I thought Corbyn's original gameplan was, before he got attracted to the idea of defeating May in Commons votes. The Tories would have been torn asunder.
Thank goodness that didn't happen. Instead the Tories could excise the diehard extremists like Grieve, unite behind a common purpose and put the ghost of Europe division behind it. Thank you Labour!
In what parallel universe was Dominic Grieve ever a "diehard extremist"? Beyond parody!
He most certainly was. He took a position which brooked no compromise and utilised every intellectual and arcane procedural argument he could in pursuit of his goal, his actions demonstrating any word of compromise was not reflective of his aims.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
Hmm, lets agree to disagree.
A moderate person voted remain and now accepts the result. Simple democratic view. An extremist, especially one who claims to be a democrat, refuses to accept it and goes almost mad seeking ways to reverse it. The illness has afflicted much of the pre-referendum establishment who have failed to come to terms with the fact that the voters flouted their advice. As a remain voter it has been painful but illuminating to watch.
A moderate Remainer now accepts the result but voting Remain does not make one a moderate, it is the minority position. Moderate in this country is voting Leave but wanting a deal too.
It is not clear that Remain is the minority opinion any more. Polling suggests otherwise, though obviously would need a referendum to be sure.
Leave has singularly failed to convince that the choice was the right one.
Remain is neither a minority nor majority opinion considering that we've left already - we can't Remain anymore. Rejoin might be an opinion but I've seen no opinion polls on that yet.
Though we've had two General Elections since the EU Referendum and the result last December was that the Tories not just won a landslide majority but they won more votes than the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties combined.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEb3lTNkO_8
The whole piece is such self-parodic grauniad wankerdom I suspect it is by Titania McGrath. Sample for those who accurately identify a tl;dr situation here:
" The worst that’s happened to my family is that my son’s school play was cancelled a week before they were due to perform it, his grade 2 drum exam result was partly decided by an algorithm (presumably no consultation with Stewart Copeland or anybody about this) and yoga classes have become a multi-media technical undertaking worthy of NASA, with restrictions, literally, on the way you are allowed to breathe."
I don't think the Stewart Copeland bit is meant as a joke.
And: "That the government and SAGE have so gravely miscalculated their response to this virus is a both tragedy and a scandal, a misuse of power and a spectacular failure of ethics. Not only does the response make no sense in relation to the number of deaths over various age groups, but there has been an almost callous disrespect of life quality and the life-altering negative experiences of those affected by the measures taken. How many people who made these decisions for us, in the cabinet or from SAGE, are going to be closing the doors of long-standing and much-loved businesses, spending hours on hold trying to reach Universal Credit or face being evicted from their rented flats with nowhere to go? None."
If there is ever an enquiry into the Covid response, this should be a key part of it.
Its worth remembering that when John Major made Maastricht a confidence motion then not a single Maastricht Rebel went against that vote (one missed the vote as he was overseas and still lost the whip as a result). Grieve went against Brexit at every vote, refused to accept the referendum result and lost the whip by going against the government on a confidence vote.
Grieve was more of a diehard extremist than Bill Cash and the Maastricht bastards.
But if it squeaked through he was made - remainers would ser he fought it, he could claim he would have let a decent deal through, and he could punish those of his mps who voted it through.
But the tory awkward squad was just too large. They risked all, and in the end it worked for them.
Grieve was very bright, his allies would say very principled, and he was absolutely entitled to his position. Yet for some bizarre reason people hate to acknowledge that on the spectrum of extremes he was at one end and no dealers at the other.
That doesn't make it impossible for someone to think his position was more worthy than a no dealer. But he without question held an extreme position and that's not an insult. It's just plain silly to not accept his position was an extreme one compared to all those seeking a deal, of whatever stripe (and even most who voted against a deal claimed to be willing to vote for something).
It seems to come down to 'he is intelligent, effective, therefore not extreme'. But for that issue he was. Not good or bad. But extreme.
If you extrapolate your point to Corbyn's Labour Party, Corbyn was a moderate and Umuna had to go because he was an extremist.
Utter madness!
I think the other issue is that for some like Pete those who supported Brexit were the extremists and he sees nothing extreme about Remainers. By definition extremists exist on both sides of a debate and not just one of them and Grieve absolutely was a diehard extremist on the Remain side of the fence - he was even more extreme than Ken Clarke on the Remain side!
Grieve was on the far Remain extreme. Who was more extreme Remain than Grieve within the party?
All that says is decision makers (and advisers) are not perfectly representative. Well they never have been or will be it can be so that's not the issue, the issue is ensuring they are able to have appropriate info and ensure they take into account such perspectives or at least the impact on such people. And their personal experience of such will be an irrelevance.
A party that cannot accomodation Grieve but can embrace Andrew Bridgen has some serious issues to deal with further down the line.
When the country voted to leave the EU at a referendum "moderate" was voting for a Brexit deal - Grieve is one of the only Tories who never did vote for any deal offered. He is as extreme as it gets.
Name a single Tory more extreme on the Remain side of the fence than Grieve please? Or are only Brexiteers extreme in your perverted worldview?
He was quite patently a diehard Remain extremist.
At the end of two of tyhe most remote roads in Scotland?
Who says?
So no, they were right to reject the deal and roll the electoral dice. It was the only remaining move thanks to the Corbynite intransigence
Conservative Party used disinformation ‘with new level of impunity’ during 2019 general election, report finds
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-disinformation-2019-general-election-a9682566.html
Very autocratic
So here's a question for PB sages, Corbyn cultists or Trump cultists?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18564045.divisive-broadcaster-neil-oliver-steps-national-trust-scotland-president/
1) He's a drug dealer, they get very little sympathy from the public.
2) He's a former public schoolboy, the public think we enjoy a good caning/spanking.
Farmer who planted metal shards in Tesco baby food is an ex-Tory councillor
A FARMER who planted baby food laced with metal shards in a Scottish Tesco is a former Tory councillor, it has been revealed.
"It made me feel as though I’d gone to bed on March 19th as a bleeding heart lefty liberal and woken up on the 20th as a rabid right wing libertarian. I don’t understand why people can’t see that caring about the economy is caring about poverty. Concern about civil liberties is central to fighting oppression. Awareness about mental health is as important as statistical analysis of physical health. Come on, my liberal friends. This is as woke as you can get. Wake up. And stay woke! "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wemyss_Bay_railway_station#/media/File:Wemyss_Bay_railway_station_concourse_2018-08-25_2.jpg
PS: a queue waiting on courts reopening as well, dear dear.
As for being a ‘little englander’ whatever that means. My ancestry is not English. If Scots want independence you can have it for me. Good luck solving the currency issue.
As for my view. The man has been tried and the court has passed judgment.
EEA/CM2.0 could also have passed, there should have been more support for it
Instead we offered a sort of unicorn Brexit which wasn't possible.
EEA was deliverable and workable - and with May as weak as she was, it would have passed and could have been implemented.
What makes Grieve more extreme than Cash considering that as per the referendum Brexiteering is the moderate opinion and Remaining is the minority one?
And when I say this sort of comment can have unfortunate resilts I'm talking about the moderators and the site host.
Would still have made sense for Remainers to seek that afterwards though. But Leavers (and Cameron's government and Remain campaigners too) explicitly said that was not an option during the Referendum.
https://twitter.com/mic72fis/status/1297557983673556992?s=09
Mogilev:
https://twitter.com/kark0n/status/1297503451082108929?s=19
Vitebsk:
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1297530261568094208?s=09
Brest:
https://twitter.com/belteanews/status/1294665061655547904?s=09
And this list of other cities is quite extensive:
https://twitter.com/AvniDervishi/status/1297561932011118592?s=09
Nigel - "wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway"
Edit: I see you got there first!
Many Brexit supporters, especially on this site Mr Tyndall, did support it but during the Referendum campaign it was explicitly ruled out by Johnson and other Leave campaigners.
Leave has singularly failed to convince that the choice was the right one.
Cameron, Gove, Johnson, Clegg, Osborne and Leadsom all explicitly said we would Leave the Single Market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlF9STvLeDQ
Any further concessions and yes there would be a mass exodus of Leavers back from the Tories to the Brexit Party again
So this is from HYUFD on other thread, thoughts?
https://twitter.com/AndrewKnight226/status/1297369338844868608?s=20
Though we've had two General Elections since the EU Referendum and the result last December was that the Tories not just won a landslide majority but they won more votes than the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties combined.