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SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited August 2020 in General
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  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    That Atlantic piece on Britain's COVID response is excellent reading.
    Johnson is the wrong man at the wrong time. Suspect he knows it as well.
  • The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    England case data out - scaled to 100k population

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    England case data - absolute

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    England case data -

    image
    image
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
  • Its amusing to see the Tories being "reduced to just six Scottish seats" being described as "appalling".

    It isn't that long ago the idea of six Tory MPs would have been considered brilliant remarkably good for the Tories. Cameron would have been happy to get six. Especially considering it is six time as many MPs as SLAB got.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Won't help. It's like saying the sooner a bullemic reaches their target weight the better. It's an external solution to an internal problem.
  • The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    wasn;t there a poll showing recently showing many English tories are now done with the Union?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    edited August 2020
    rkrkrk said:

    That Atlantic piece on Britain's COVID response is excellent reading.
    Johnson is the wrong man at the wrong time. Suspect he knows it as well.

    The Atlantic has had excellent coverage of Covid-19 generally neither alarmist nor denialist, and well sourced. Indeed so good that I have taken a subscription.

    This article on QAnon is excellent too. The return of Salem Witchtrials and Mcarthyist conspiracies.

    https://twitter.com/JeffreyGoldberg/status/1293388230507859971?s=09
  • The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Won't help. It's like saying the sooner a bullemic reaches their target weight the better. It's an external solution to an internal problem.
    If I was being forced to eat the same calories as a bullemic then I would want them to be able to control their own meal time while I control my own.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Do you really care? I used to. Now I don't.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    538 forecast Trump 29% to win
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    kamski said:

    538 forecast Trump 29% to win

    Pretty much the same as last time then. It’s still a pretty close race.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Here was me thinking America was over it's second wave of deaths an it turns out yesterday was the highest number of deaths reported since the 27th of May (caveat, that's day of reporting figure not day of death)
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    edited August 2020

    England case data - absolute

    image

    The South Coast has hardly any cases. Its one of the many reasons that footballers who come to play or manage Saints keep a house round here. Even an ex Scottish Manager continues to live in Warsash.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    And it looks to me like there may be a new mole appearing in the West Midlands - Birmingham, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Dudley etc., which would be a big one to whack.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Scots not keen on bumbling old etonian shocker.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    Would be a certain irony if it was the Royal Bank of Scotland, just rebranded as the National Westminster.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    Two different things, Malc. Currency needs a central bank.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    And it looks to me like there may be a new mole appearing in the West Midlands - Birmingham, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Dudley etc., which would be a big one to whack.
    That’s been around for weeks. The question was always when rather than whether it would start running away and need locking down.

    Equally, it’s a bit doubtful how effective a local lockdown would be there given large numbers of people would probably simply ignore it.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    Why are you bothering? no arguments of the realities will ever persuade them, even though its staring them in the face....If reading this site has taught me anything its taught me that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    Would be a certain irony if it was the Royal Bank of Scotland, just rebranded as the National Westminster.
    Lol, I thin if Scotland had a McPound with their own central bank it could work, but the markets would hit the currency and bonds very quickly with devaluation and mega interest rates given the poor financial position Scotland has. It's definitely possible, but I'm not sure independence voters are voting for 20 years of austerity. 🤷‍♂️
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    Maybe the moles were an artefact. Despite being a supposed hotspot, numbers of inpatients in Leicester is a third of what it was a month ago.

    When you start doing door to door swabbing you find a lot of mild disease. Important for stamping it out, but not to lose sleep over.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    Yeah, I think so. Must have been difficult to maintain after the UK dropped out of the ERM.
  • Looking at the Covid cases charts you can imagine my delight that Mr RP Senior remains in hospital in Oldham awaiting his "emergency" Hernia operation. Which is now "hmmm I'm not sure we should operate given your other conditions lets have my boss look at you tomorrow".
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,210
    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    538 forecast Trump 29% to win

    Pretty much the same as last time then. It’s still a pretty close race.
    Given we're still two and a half months away from election day, and there are a lot of "events" in the interim, I think c. 30% is probably a bit right, and maybe a tiny bit stingy.

    (Although I'd note that Biden's lead has started rising again on the 538 tracker.)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    Why are you bothering? no arguments of the realities will ever persuade them, even though its staring them in the face....If reading this site has taught me anything its taught me that.
    Why else do you think that state run Scottish schools no longer teach economics? What's the point? The SNP have their own facts and seem happy with them.
  • Nando's could have exploited this by offering a free estimated grade with every meal purchased.
    If Ofqual had replaced A* - E grades with Extra Hot - Lemon & Herb for this year, nobody would have been able to complain that they had got the wrong results.

    Go on Gav. There's still time to make the situation even more confusing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Foxy said:

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    Maybe the moles were an artefact. Despite being a supposed hotspot, numbers of inpatients in Leicester is a third of what it was a month ago.

    When you start doing door to door swabbing you find a lot of mild disease. Important for stamping it out, but not to lose sleep over.
    image

    We will need to see the next reporting peak, but the last one, 3-6th August doesn't indicate a continued upward growth. Single swallows, summers etc. Something to watch.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Takeaway from the YouGov Scottish poll is that Johnson and the Conservative Party are approved of by the irridentist wing of the Unionist faction, consisting of 20% of Scots, and utterly despised by everyone else.

    The problem for the continuance of the Union is that Johnson's vision for the UK settlement is anathema to at least half of Scottish Unionists, let alone those that support independence.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    I am pretty sure that they floated their own currency a few years before they joined the Euro but they did have a tie to Sterling for something like 60 years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    Looking at the Covid cases charts you can imagine my delight that Mr RP Senior remains in hospital in Oldham awaiting his "emergency" Hernia operation. Which is now "hmmm I'm not sure we should operate given your other conditions lets have my boss look at you tomorrow".

    When my mother-in-law had an operation delayed, I managed to find the senior consultant I had spoken to before.

    He unleashed a torrent of what I presume was uncomplimentary words as the ditherer-in-charge. In a what I presume was an Indian language.

    Who, wilting under the strain, muttered "there are people watching" to him.

    The senior consultant used, looked at me, said "Sorry" and then dropped another torrent of abuse. In English this time.

    A magnificent performance.

    It is rare to see a person actually shrinking - I think another ten minutes and the doctor under the lash would have been 6 inches tall.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    Foxy said:

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    Maybe the moles were an artefact. Despite being a supposed hotspot, numbers of inpatients in Leicester is a third of what it was a month ago.

    When you start doing door to door swabbing you find a lot of mild disease. Important for stamping it out, but not to lose sleep over.
    image

    We will need to see the next reporting peak, but the last one, 3-6th August doesn't indicate a continued upward growth. Single swallows, summers etc. Something to watch.
    In Leicester we are down to just 11 inpatients today, a sixth of what it was at the beginning of July, and 5% of the peak in April. One death only in the last fortnight

    Hotspot? What hotspot?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    Yeah, I think so. Must have been difficult to maintain after the UK dropped out of the ERM.
    The peg vanished long before erm, my gf in 1990 was Irish and we always changed money before flying over but bars were only too happy to accept english money on a 1:1 basis I think at the time it was something like 90 pence to the punt
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Isn't that the European Central Bank?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    Would be a certain irony if it was the Royal Bank of Scotland, just rebranded as the National Westminster.
    Lol, I thin if Scotland had a McPound with their own central bank it could work, but the markets would hit the currency and bonds very quickly with devaluation and mega interest rates given the poor financial position Scotland has. It's definitely possible, but I'm not sure independence voters are voting for 20 years of austerity. 🤷‍♂️
    We will see smart arse when England is on its own how they do , you may smile on the other side of your smug pompous face
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    Looking at the Covid cases charts you can imagine my delight that Mr RP Senior remains in hospital in Oldham awaiting his "emergency" Hernia operation. Which is now "hmmm I'm not sure we should operate given your other conditions lets have my boss look at you tomorrow".

    When my mother-in-law had an operation delayed, I managed to find the senior consultant I had spoken to before.

    He unleashed a torrent of what I presume was uncomplimentary words as the ditherer-in-charge. In a what I presume was an Indian language.

    Who, wilting under the strain, muttered "there are people watching" to him.

    The senior consultant used, looked at me, said "Sorry" and then dropped another torrent of abuse. In English this time.

    A magnificent performance.

    It is rare to see a person actually shrinking - I think another ten minutes and the doctor under the lash would have been 6 inches tall.
    Completely inappropriate and unprofessional behaviour.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Foxy said:

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    Maybe the moles were an artefact. Despite being a supposed hotspot, numbers of inpatients in Leicester is a third of what it was a month ago.

    When you start doing door to door swabbing you find a lot of mild disease. Important for stamping it out, but not to lose sleep over.
    Maybe, but if that was the only explanation you'd expect biggish jump when they started intensive testing, followed by a tailing-off as the moles were whacked. That doesn't seem to be happening, although perhaps it's still too early to tell.

    It would be good if they did some intensive testing in non-hotspot areas, as a control.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    Two different things, Malc. Currency needs a central bank.
    Do you mean abuilding like the bank of england , just like every country has. Our share of the bank of england loot will do very nicely and starting off debt free will put us in a very nice position.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    Two different things, Malc. Currency needs a central bank.
    Do you mean abuilding like the bank of england , just like every country has. Our share of the bank of england loot will do very nicely and starting off debt free will put us in a very nice position.
    If you take a share of the assets, you’ll have to take a share of the debt most likely... 🤷‍♂️
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Isn't that the European Central Bank?
    It may well be now but they all have had their own as well, so we will have our own or we will also have the ECB , only a foolish moron would not understand that if 200 countries can manage it poor old Scotland can manage it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    Two different things, Malc. Currency needs a central bank.
    Do you mean abuilding like the bank of england , just like every country has. Our share of the bank of england loot will do very nicely and starting off debt free will put us in a very nice position.
    If you take a share of the assets, you’ll have to take a share of the debt most likely... 🤷‍♂️
    If they want a share of the assets we could give them Northern ireland
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Foxy said:

    Looking at the Covid cases charts you can imagine my delight that Mr RP Senior remains in hospital in Oldham awaiting his "emergency" Hernia operation. Which is now "hmmm I'm not sure we should operate given your other conditions lets have my boss look at you tomorrow".

    When my mother-in-law had an operation delayed, I managed to find the senior consultant I had spoken to before.

    He unleashed a torrent of what I presume was uncomplimentary words as the ditherer-in-charge. In a what I presume was an Indian language.

    Who, wilting under the strain, muttered "there are people watching" to him.

    The senior consultant used, looked at me, said "Sorry" and then dropped another torrent of abuse. In English this time.

    A magnificent performance.

    It is rare to see a person actually shrinking - I think another ten minutes and the doctor under the lash would have been 6 inches tall.
    Completely inappropriate and unprofessional behaviour.
    I rather got the impression there was history between them....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
    We will be debt free and the English unionist Nat West Bank will never be near being the central bank.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    Why are you bothering? no arguments of the realities will ever persuade them, even though its staring them in the face....If reading this site has taught me anything its taught me that.
    Given the mince you print it has learnt you zilch, a turnip would know more.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264
    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    Yeah, I think so. Must have been difficult to maintain after the UK dropped out of the ERM.
    The peg vanished long before erm, my gf in 1990 was Irish and we always changed money before flying over but bars were only too happy to accept english money on a 1:1 basis I think at the time it was something like 90 pence to the punt
    An interesting but incomplete article about the post-independence history of the Irish pound:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_pound

    It traded 1:1 with Sterling for decades, but wiki doesn't mention who guaranteed it. There used to be a "Sterling Area" which included, I think, Australia and NZ. Was Ireland part of this? And history does not relate whether the "Irish Free State" was saddled with a share of our post-WW1 national debt.
  • *Betting Post*

    Second Test at Southampton starts tomorrow. PBers have long been accustomed to profiting from laying the draw in five day games except when the weather is doubtful. If you believe the BBC forecast you would have to think that there could be a lot of interruptions. Otoh if you believe Netweather there could be a full five days, in which case the chances of a draw are much more remote than the odds of 2.9 (Betfair) would suggest.

    https://www.netweather.tv/weather-forecasts/uk/7-day/26442~Southampton

    Dodgy business betting on weather forecasts. Weathermen are rather apt to change their minds (and seldom admit a mistake when wrong!), but if Netweather are anywhere near right this looks a good betting opportunity.

    I'd suggests laying to begin with but be quick to hedge as the contest evolves.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Isn't that the European Central Bank?
    It may well be now but they all have had their own as well, so we will have our own or we will also have the ECB , only a foolish moron would not understand that if 200 countries can manage it poor old Scotland can manage it.
    You can certainly have a central bank the issue will be however what rate you can borrow at. The ECB wont be available I suspect for ten years or so as I think you have to be in the euro for that and it will take at least ten years for scotland to meet all the criteria even if allowed immediate entry to the eu which frankly I don't believe you will be but its one that only time will tell on.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    OK

    The Denmark Central bank has assets of ±£60 billion. And a long credit history. It was founded in 1818.

    How much should the Scottish Central Bank have in assets, and where will it get it from?

    For perspective, £60 billion is about one year's tax take in Scotland. Scotland spends £75 billion a year.

    So it will have to find one year's tax take at least and £15 billion a year, just to stand still.


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    Yeah, I think so. Must have been difficult to maintain after the UK dropped out of the ERM.
    The peg vanished long before erm, my gf in 1990 was Irish and we always changed money before flying over but bars were only too happy to accept english money on a 1:1 basis I think at the time it was something like 90 pence to the punt
    An interesting but incomplete article about the post-independence history of the Irish pound:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_pound

    It traded 1:1 with Sterling for decades, but wiki doesn't mention who guaranteed it. There used to be a "Sterling Area" which included, I think, Australia and NZ. Was Ireland part of this? And history does not relate whether the "Irish Free State" was saddled with a share of our post-WW1 national debt.
    Not one of the lucky countries that threw off the yoke got a penny of debt, it was UK debt and nothing to do with them , aka Scotland.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    Two different things, Malc. Currency needs a central bank.
    Do you mean abuilding like the bank of england , just like every country has. Our share of the bank of england loot will do very nicely and starting off debt free will put us in a very nice position.
    If you take a share of the assets, you’ll have to take a share of the debt most likely... 🤷‍♂️
    What assets?! The UK state has nothing but debt, we're one of the most indebted developed nations in the world, the state itself owns very little other than a few buildings and a miniscule holding of foreign bonds.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
    We do not have a 9% deficit, we have made up numbers by Westminster. It would run a balanced budget and borrow sensibly , currently it borrows peanuts as that is all England allows. #
    We will do just fine.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    @MaxPB project fear just isn’t going to work this time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    OK

    The Denmark Central bank has assets of ±£60 billion. And a long credit history. It was founded in 1818.

    How much should the Scottish Central Bank have in assets, and where will it get it from?

    For perspective, £60 billion is about one year's tax take in Scotland. Scotland spends £75 billion a year.

    So it will have to find one year's tax take at least and £15 billion a year, just to stand still.


    It's all possible, but it means tuning a balanced budget, the question that needs answering us what the SNP would cut or which taxes would rise to balance the budget. Small countries can't run deficits in perpetuity in the same way big ones can, the markets will bully them and eventually go on strike leading to an IMF bailout.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    Two different things, Malc. Currency needs a central bank.
    Do you mean abuilding like the bank of england , just like every country has. Our share of the bank of england loot will do very nicely and starting off debt free will put us in a very nice position.
    If you take a share of the assets, you’ll have to take a share of the debt most likely... 🤷‍♂️
    What assets?! The UK state has nothing but debt, we're one of the most indebted developed nations in the world, the state itself owns very little other than a few buildings and a miniscule holding of foreign bonds.
    We own 45% of OneWeb 🤷‍♂️
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
    We will be debt free and the English unionist Nat West Bank will never be near being the central bank.
    An independent Scotland would get no share of assets unless you also took on a share of debts.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
    Always the imaginary benevolent England paying all our bills, utter rubbish, as I said you can go back 50 years and we have a large surplus even allowing for funding English ( London ) infrastructure).
    WE will do just fine when we cast off the yoke and are able to produce real figures and not the rigged ones from London.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Isn't that the European Central Bank?
    It may well be now but they all have had their own as well, so we will have our own or we will also have the ECB , only a foolish moron would not understand that if 200 countries can manage it poor old Scotland can manage it.
    You can certainly have a central bank the issue will be however what rate you can borrow at. The ECB wont be available I suspect for ten years or so as I think you have to be in the euro for that and it will take at least ten years for scotland to meet all the criteria even if allowed immediate entry to the eu which frankly I don't believe you will be but its one that only time will tell on.
    Fantasies are getting bigger and bigger.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    *Betting Post*

    Second Test at Southampton starts tomorrow. PBers have long been accustomed to profiting from laying the draw in five day games except when the weather is doubtful. If you believe the BBC forecast you would have to think that there could be a lot of interruptions. Otoh if you believe Netweather there could be a full five days, in which case the chances of a draw are much more remote than the odds of 2.9 (Betfair) would suggest.

    https://www.netweather.tv/weather-forecasts/uk/7-day/26442~Southampton

    Dodgy business betting on weather forecasts. Weathermen are rather apt to change their minds (and seldom admit a mistake when wrong!), but if Netweather are anywhere near right this looks a good betting opportunity.

    I'd suggests laying to begin with but be quick to hedge as the contest evolves.

    I reckon Pakistan to win is the best bet, given how close they were last week. England without Stokes; Pakistan's bowling attack is strong enough to bowl England out twice, with maybe a worn pitch taking spin. And following rain ground should drain and dry pretty quickly. And Babar will score a century....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    Yeah, I think so. Must have been difficult to maintain after the UK dropped out of the ERM.
    The peg vanished long before erm, my gf in 1990 was Irish and we always changed money before flying over but bars were only too happy to accept english money on a 1:1 basis I think at the time it was something like 90 pence to the punt
    An interesting but incomplete article about the post-independence history of the Irish pound:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_pound

    It traded 1:1 with Sterling for decades, but wiki doesn't mention who guaranteed it. There used to be a "Sterling Area" which included, I think, Australia and NZ. Was Ireland part of this? And history does not relate whether the "Irish Free State" was saddled with a share of our post-WW1 national debt.
    Not one of the lucky countries that threw off the yoke got a penny of debt, it was UK debt and nothing to do with them , aka Scotland.
    Ireland took on a share of debt. It was eventually released from that obligation in exchange for not disputing the border with Northern Ireland.

    What would Scotland offer?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited August 2020

    @MaxPB project fear just isn’t going to work this time.

    Which is quite remarkable, given that Scots will have before them, in full sight, a fully worked example of what happens if you disrupt trading patterns, create borders where there were none before, ignore the practical realities, and alienate your much bigger neighbour, all in the name of a chimera.

    It will be just one more in the list of catastrophic misjudgements made by voters in the UK since 2016.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    Yeah, I think so. Must have been difficult to maintain after the UK dropped out of the ERM.
    The peg vanished long before erm, my gf in 1990 was Irish and we always changed money before flying over but bars were only too happy to accept english money on a 1:1 basis I think at the time it was something like 90 pence to the punt
    An interesting but incomplete article about the post-independence history of the Irish pound:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_pound

    It traded 1:1 with Sterling for decades, but wiki doesn't mention who guaranteed it. There used to be a "Sterling Area" which included, I think, Australia and NZ. Was Ireland part of this? And history does not relate whether the "Irish Free State" was saddled with a share of our post-WW1 national debt.
    Not one of the lucky countries that threw off the yoke got a penny of debt, it was UK debt and nothing to do with them , aka Scotland.
    Ireland took on a share of debt. It was eventually released from that obligation in exchange for not disputing the border with Northern Ireland.

    What would Scotland offer?
    Would you take Glasgow?
  • ydoethur said:

    England case data - absolute

    ...

    The moles don't seem to be responding much to the whackings.
    And it looks to me like there may be a new mole appearing in the West Midlands - Birmingham, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Dudley etc., which would be a big one to whack.
    That’s been around for weeks. The question was always when rather than whether it would start running away and need locking down.

    Equally, it’s a bit doubtful how effective a local lockdown would be there given large numbers of people would probably simply ignore it.
    Should I be worried about the "15" in Redbridge a few days ago?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    @MaxPB project fear just isn’t going to work this time.

    I don't think it wil either, but it will become project reality. Ultimately the argument for the Union needs to be won on an emotional level, not enough Scottish people feel emotionally attached to the Union.

    Even with no deal, the government has the option of firing up the printing presses and staving off economic Armageddon for a couple of years until a deal can be made. Scotland runs a gigantic structural deficit, it spends too much and taxes too little. That will cause serious austerity and tax rises after independence, it is inevitable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
    We will be debt free and the English unionist Nat West Bank will never be near being the central bank.
    An independent Scotland would get no share of assets unless you also took on a share of debts.
    I don't know why that is even controversial. That or some trade off for it would be part of the cost of independence. Untangling such a longstanding union will be complicated and involve difficulty - it was bad enough some Brexiteers pretending it would all be easy without people pretending the same with Sindy, which is much more complicated. There's no need to blow smoke up people's arses about such things, I'd be astonished if it would persuade someone who has made the switch to be an Indy supporter to change their mind.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    malcolmg said:

    Pagan2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Isn't that the European Central Bank?
    It may well be now but they all have had their own as well, so we will have our own or we will also have the ECB , only a foolish moron would not understand that if 200 countries can manage it poor old Scotland can manage it.
    You can certainly have a central bank the issue will be however what rate you can borrow at. The ECB wont be available I suspect for ten years or so as I think you have to be in the euro for that and it will take at least ten years for scotland to meet all the criteria even if allowed immediate entry to the eu which frankly I don't believe you will be but its one that only time will tell on.
    Fantasies are getting bigger and bigger.
    Well we will see won't we Malcolm as I said I support scottish independence but I don't think it will happen in my lifetime because when it comes to it your countrymen won't vote for it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
    We do not have a 9% deficit, we have made up numbers by Westminster. It would run a balanced budget and borrow sensibly , currently it borrows peanuts as that is all England allows. #
    We will do just fine.
    The "made up numbers" by the Scottish government say you have a 7% deficit, while the UK as a whole is 1.1%:

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
    We do not have a 9% deficit, we have made up numbers by Westminster. It would run a balanced budget and borrow sensibly , currently it borrows peanuts as that is all England allows. #
    We will do just fine.
    You do. Whether or not you believe the numbers is irrelevant.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
    Always the imaginary benevolent England paying all our bills, utter rubbish, as I said you can go back 50 years and we have a large surplus even allowing for funding English ( London ) infrastructure).
    WE will do just fine when we cast off the yoke and are able to produce real figures and not the rigged ones from London.
    Scotland had received a net subsidy to its economy of between 9% and 11% per year for at least the last 10 years.

    Again, whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. I actually don't give a fuck either but I'm waiting for the better half to get ready for dinner and this kills the time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    So it looks like it was three crew/six passengers.

    Very, very fortunate there were so few people on it. Imagine if it had been full. It would have been the worst disaster since Ladbroke Grove, if not Harrow. But that will hardly be any comfort to the families of those killed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
    We will be debt free and the English unionist Nat West Bank will never be near being the central bank.
    An independent Scotland would get no share of assets unless you also took on a share of debts.
    I don't know why that is even controversial. That or some trade off for it would be part of the cost of independence. Untangling such a longstanding union will be complicated and involve difficulty - it was bad enough some Brexiteers pretending it would all be easy without people pretending the same with Sindy, which is much more complicated. There's no need to blow smoke up people's arses about such things, I'd be astonished if it would persuade someone who has made the switch to be an Indy supporter to change their mind.
    I think that the effects of Brexit remain massively overstated but in every respect, share of trade, length of union, integration of laws, shared institutions, shared currency and debt, independence for Scotland is just on a completely different scale. And when you think it has taken nearly 5 years to get close to implementing Brexit you really have to wonder how long it might take and what the economic consequences of that uncertainty might be.
  • Evening all, thunderstorms all afternoon here and Internet has been up and down like a yo-yo which has made work very frustrating.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    Scottish pounds you halfwit , as per our existing currency.
    Backed by which central bank?
    It's own central bank just like most countries in the world, which central bank supports Belgium , Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden , Norway , Iceland , and on and on . What in tiny English minds makes them think Scotland is the only country unable to have its own currency and run its own treasury
    Which is fine, but you can't do that and run a 9% deficit indefinitely at the same time. It means an end to free prescriptions, introduction of student fees etc... or significantly higher taxes on income, production and wealth. Like it or not an independent Scotland and the McPound doesn't have the same capacity as sterling, it's not a reserve currency and funds don't already hold £1.2tn in paper they are unwilling to trash. Take a look at all the countries you mention, none of them run a fiscal deficit anything like Scotland would have.

    Again, I've told you this plenty of times. I'd still go for it, even knowing that, but if you do there's no running to papa England and asking for a bailout. You will be on your own.
    We do not have a 9% deficit, we have made up numbers by Westminster. It would run a balanced budget and borrow sensibly , currently it borrows peanuts as that is all England allows. #
    We will do just fine.
    The "made up numbers" by the Scottish government say you have a 7% deficit, while the UK as a whole is 1.1%:

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers/
    I tell you, whoever decided to withdraw economics from schools was a genuine strategic thinker.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    @MaxPB project fear just isn’t going to work this time.

    Which is quite remarkable, given that Scots will have before them, in full sight, a fully worked example of what happens if you disrupt trading patterns, create borders where there were none before, ignore the practical realities, and alienate your much bigger neighbour, all in the name of a chimera.

    It will be just one more in the list of catastrophic misjudgements made by voters in the UK since 2016.
    It was damn close in 2014 too.

    Roots go far deeper.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    The UK is going to have an enormous debt at the end of Covid, much of it accrued in supporting the English AND SCottish economies, paying for the furloughs of English AND Scottish workers (and Welsh and Norn as well, of course)

    The idea that Scotland would be allowed to walk away from this shared debt, undertaken to help Scotland and England alike, is not just morally appalling, it is actively impossible. It would guarantee a vastly hostile reaction from the English (and their government). England would make Scotland pay, one way or another. It would be brutal. England is ten times the size of Scotland.

    The English can be an apathetic and foolish people, but they won't be taken for idiots forever. Not when it comes to hard money.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2020
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
    We will be debt free and the English unionist Nat West Bank will never be near being the central bank.
    An independent Scotland would get no share of assets unless you also took on a share of debts.
    I don't know why that is even controversial. That or some trade off for it would be part of the cost of independence. Untangling such a longstanding union will be complicated and involve difficulty - it was bad enough some Brexiteers pretending it would all be easy without people pretending the same with Sindy, which is much more complicated. There's no need to blow smoke up people's arses about such things, I'd be astonished if it would persuade someone who has made the switch to be an Indy supporter to change their mind.
    The reason Salmond failed was because ultimately, he wasn’t being truthful about these sort of trade offs and everyone who was not already a rabid nationalist could see that. It meant that either he didn’t know what he was talking about, or he was lying, and in neither case did he command conviction.

    The question at the next referendum is whether people will care, or whether they will conclude, like the Irish, that although they would be worse off financially independence would still be preferable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    LadyG said:

    The UK is going to have an enormous debt at the end of Covid, much of it accrued in supporting the English AND SCottish economies, paying for the furloughs of English AND Scottish workers (and Welsh and Norn as well, of course)

    The idea that Scotland would be allowed to walk away from this shared debt, undertaken to help Scotland and England alike, is not just morally appalling, it is actively impossible. It would guarantee a vastly hostile reaction from the English (and their government). England would make Scotland pay, one way or another. It would be brutal. England is ten times the size of Scotland.

    The English can be an apathetic and foolish people, but they won't be taken for idiots forever. Not when it comes to hard money.

    Actually, that’s not quite correct. On 2018 figures it’s just over eleven times the size economically:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/regionaleconomicactivitybygrossdomesticproductuk/1998to2018/pdf#page2

    But it is ten times in terms of population - 55 to 5.5 million.
  • Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) announced today she will retire at next year's Scottish elections.

    18 MSPs have announced their intentions to retire so far. The current list of confirmed retirements ahead of 2021 elections is

    Bruce Crawford (born in 1955): MSP since 1999
    Mike Russell (1953), MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007
    Stewart Stevenson (1946), MSP since 2001
    Aileen Campbell (1980), MSP since 2007
    Richard Lyle (1950), MSP since 2011
    Gail Ross (1977), MSP since 2016
    Angus MacDonald (1963): MSP since 2011
    Gil Paternson (1942): MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007
    Linda Fabiani (1956): MSP since 1999

    ex SNP
    Mark McDonald (1980): MSP since 2011

    Conservatives
    Ruth Davidson (1978): MSP since 2011
    Margaret Mitchell (1952): MSP since 2003
    Adam Tomkins (1969): MSP since 2016

    Labour
    Elaine Smith (1963): MSP since 1999
    Mary Fee (1954): MSP since 2011
    Neil Findlay (1969): MSP since 2011
    Iain Gray (1957): MSP from 1999 to 2003 and then since 2007
    David Stewart (1956): MSP since 2007. Previously MSP from 1997 to 2005

    Greens
    John Finnie (1956), MSP since 2011 (first election as SNP)

    ___

    MSPs can retire at 65 with the full pension they are entitled to based on number of years served. They can claim a reduced pension starting from 55, with a reduction of 4% of each year before 65.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    @MaxPB project fear just isn’t going to work this time.

    Setting aside for one moment all the positives and negatives both of Brexit and Scexit, one gathers the impression that the next vote on the latter will end up going the same way as the first vote on on the former: a majority has basically made up its mind that it doesn't like political union and, when push comes to shove, will not be dissuaded from ending it. Whether either process will end well or not, only time will tell.

    Of course, one key difference between these processes is that, in the longer term, Brexit is probably reversible, assuming that the EU continues to hold together. Scexit isn't.

    In other developments, the Covid hospitalisation figure is now down to 1,001, so I think there's a decent chance that my prediction from last week - that it'll be down into three figures by Thursday - is liable to be proven correct. A little piece of good news, at least.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,859
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    What they call it is pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is who stands behind it.
    The Scottish treasury, yet another halfwit who does not understand how countries run and thinks only Scotland in the whole world cannot have a treasury. How thick can you be , our share of all the loot from Bank of UK will be deposited in our new Treasury and we will run just like the 200 or so other countries in the world run, FFS think before you write such crap.
    You want a large share of the UK’s IOUs?

    That’s generous of you.
    We will be debt free and the English unionist Nat West Bank will never be near being the central bank.
    An independent Scotland would get no share of assets unless you also took on a share of debts.
    I don't know why that is even controversial. That or some trade off for it would be part of the cost of independence. Untangling such a longstanding union will be complicated and involve difficulty - it was bad enough some Brexiteers pretending it would all be easy without people pretending the same with Sindy, which is much more complicated. There's no need to blow smoke up people's arses about such things, I'd be astonished if it would persuade someone who has made the switch to be an Indy supporter to change their mind.
    The reason Salmond failed was because ultimately, he wasn’t being truthful about these sort of trade offs and everyone who was not already a rabid nationalist could see that. It meant that either he didn’t know what he was talking about, or he was lying, and in neither case did he command conviction.

    The question at the next referendum is whether people will care, or whether they will conclude, like the Irish, that although they would be worse off financially independence would still be preferable.
    Scotland was full of posters the last time boasting how much public spending could increase once we had our own budget, how many more teachers, doctors and nurses we could have. It was unmitigated crap and thankfully the majority did not believe it although depressingly many did.

    I really don't believe that the SNP will be able to run such arguments again. If we went independent we would be looking at cuts in public spending of around 20% to balance the budget. How many hospitals, schools and roads is independence worth?

    For those to whom this is their Valhalla none of this matters but I think that they are outnumbered by those conned into believing the lies in the Scottish Government's White paper.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    LadyG said:

    The UK is going to have an enormous debt at the end of Covid, much of it accrued in supporting the English AND SCottish economies, paying for the furloughs of English AND Scottish workers (and Welsh and Norn as well, of course)

    The idea that Scotland would be allowed to walk away from this shared debt, undertaken to help Scotland and England alike, is not just morally appalling, it is actively impossible. It would guarantee a vastly hostile reaction from the English (and their government). England would make Scotland pay, one way or another. It would be brutal. England is ten times the size of Scotland.

    The English can be an apathetic and foolish people, but they won't be taken for idiots forever. Not when it comes to hard money.

    You're sounding like HYUFD. No tanks yet?

    The Scottish independence movement has generally not suggested anything more than a rational share out - the problem is the need for a plan B, clean break, no UK assets except the fixed ones on Scottish soil/waters, in the event that talks collapse thanks to rUK intransigence, or more likely just don't get anywhere (what has happened with Brexit makes this an even more likely possibility). I think it was the unwillingness of the UK Gmt to even discuss such matters in advance of indyref 1 that forced the Treasury issued a notice in, I think, late 2013 that the rUK would retain all debt in London (but, presumably, agree some sort of debt instrument with the renewed Scottish state).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    The sooner Scotland gets to control its own destiny and pay its own bills the better.

    Yes, but in what currency?
    A Scottish Pound makes the most sense to me. Like the Irish had pre-Euro.
    Didn't Ireland have an ERM type 1:1 peg with the British Pound?
    They started floating it in 1980 didn't they?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    LadyG said:

    The UK is going to have an enormous debt at the end of Covid, much of it accrued in supporting the English AND SCottish economies, paying for the furloughs of English AND Scottish workers (and Welsh and Norn as well, of course)

    The idea that Scotland would be allowed to walk away from this shared debt, undertaken to help Scotland and England alike, is not just morally appalling, it is actively impossible. It would guarantee a vastly hostile reaction from the English (and their government). England would make Scotland pay, one way or another. It would be brutal. England is ten times the size of Scotland.

    The English can be an apathetic and foolish people, but they won't be taken for idiots forever. Not when it comes to hard money.

    It's not without international consequences either, if a nation sees fit to walk away from one set of obligations then it sets a pretty awful precedent. They will be considered a nation in default at that point which means borrowing from speculators in USD, GBP and other foreign currencies because no one will be willing to buy paper sold under Scottish law in Edinburgh.

    There are lots of arguments to be made in favour of SIndy, but I'm not sure walking away from the debt is one of them.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited August 2020


    Conservatives
    Ruth Davidson (1978): MSP since 2011

    Vote for me, I will be fucking off after the election.
This discussion has been closed.