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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    Weird that al-kuhl is an Arabic word.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I presume we are going to see lots of gyms in big trouble shortly. No way they can carry on with no membership fees, with no prospect of opening soon and will be one of the first things closed back down in the winter.
    I am still paying my gym membership fee by direct debit but have not been there since March
    Don’t worry, millions knew that paying the membership is entirely sufficient, before the virus came along.
    I have been a member of a gym for five years and never actually set foot in it.

    The logic is that I wanted membership of the attached golf course and taking out gym membership as well was cheaper than just being an ordinary member of the golf club.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    I see the New York Times has upset the Irish.

    https://twitter.com/joshglancy/status/1275438556266168324

    I think it's the Sunday Times causing the offence.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I presume we are going to see lots of gyms in big trouble shortly. No way they can carry on with no membership fees, with no prospect of opening soon and will be one of the first things closed back down in the winter.

    My guess is that we will see a slow, steady shallowing out of the hospitality and leisure sector throughout the summer that will be largely unnocticed initially because there will be lots of post-lockdown pictures of crowded bars in city centres and down on the coasts, and that this will then accelerate once the nights start closing in - at which point it will become a big story.
    Yes - the end of summer will be when those that have reopened will know whether they can survive or not.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I am really really sorry to hear that. I have been there and a good friend is in a band which played there once or twice.

    Can the crowd funding not help?

    We are going to lose so much of our creative arts - one thing Britain is indisputably world class in.

    The crowdfunding will hep for a month or so, but after that there is no income - and, well, you know the rest.

    My guess is that new venues will appear once social distancing is no longer an issue - people will still want to make music and perform it, and others will want to listen - but it will be for a new generation to get it all started again.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
    I do worry what da yuff are going to get up to. Idle hands and all that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts

    Ah good, the small talk was always the worst.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250

    coach said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Oh ffs! Retired GP and failed/disgraced minister in a senior trade role that British business depends on.You could not make up the state of amateurishness that our political life has become. Well I guess having an ex-polemicist liar as PM we really are in the age of "having enough of experts"!
    Thinking man's Brexiteer though. Him and Richard Tyndall.
    Other than Richard Tyndall it is a low bar. A bit like saying the thinking man's Sun reader or Chelsea supporter
    If you ever want a succinct analysis of why Leave won there it is.
    If you voted Leave simply because you don't like my tongue in cheek analysis of the average Brexit supporter you are clearly supporting the thrust of that proposition. By the way, if I say you have to be pretty thick to drink and drive, it is probably best for your family that you don't take a contrarian view.
    Your continued patronising tone makes my point.

    Perhaps I am thick, in which case you reminding me is hardly going to persuade me to your point of view. And after 4 years the penny still hasn't dropped.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
    Don't tell my Mum but I regularly visit hotel bars, I love the bar at the Malmaison in Manchester, I do wonder if they can continue.

    Food and drink do end up subsidising hotel rooms.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    I see they are starting up drive in live music shows. Personally, I'm not sure they are for me. It isn't the same as going into a filthy sweaty shit hole of a room to listen to a band, where if you aren't careful you will lose a shoe as it sticks to the floor.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    Interesting point of view, (assuming this is the real Serena Williams).

    https://twitter.com/Richie_K143/status/1275371349821849606
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts

    A haircut without the "Have you been on holiday?' bollocks sounds divine.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I presume we are going to see lots of gyms in big trouble shortly. No way they can carry on with no membership fees, with no prospect of opening soon and will be one of the first things closed back down in the winter.
    I am still paying my gym membership fee by direct debit but have not been there since March
    That’s a bit cavalier. Surprised at you. Not disappointed as such but surprised certainly.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    It'll be back to normal back to normal once we're all vaccinated. Till then I think this 1 metre mitigation & 2 metre prefferred is what it will be.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting point of view, (assuming this is the real Serena Williams).

    https://twitter.com/Richie_K143/status/1275371349821849606

    They aren't its a fake I think
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
    I do worry what da yuff are going to get up to. Idle hands and all that.
    One of the thing that has surprised me, the lack of surprise pregnancies of couples living together during lockdown.

    Or we might see an uptick when couples who haven't seen each for three months get to meet up again.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    England cases by specimen date -

    image
    image
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Tempers rising, let's watch Russians put out a fire with a nuke instead

    https://twitter.com/atomicarchive/status/1275182823947882501?s=19

    On the subject of nuclear explosions, do you know what the fastest man made object is (or was)?
    No, but it sounds like a good quiz question in the making, so please tell.

    I've got to do 'world leaders' this week, which is boring and crap, so I'm going to do world's leading 'stuff' instead. Fastest would definitely work.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited June 2020
    I think today's briefing was much better news for restaurants - covers can be spaced 1 metre side side table to table and chairs 1 metre front back (As people are facing opposite ways) now than it was for pubs.
    "Pub Pubs" with no or limited garden space are probably going to close to be perfectly frank.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting point of view, (assuming this is the real Serena Williams).

    https://twitter.com/Richie_K143/status/1275371349821849606

    They aren't its a fake I think
    She makes clear she is not THE Serena Williams but wise words anyway
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
    I do worry what da yuff are going to get up to. Idle hands and all that.
    One of the thing that has surprised me, the lack of surprise pregnancies of couples living together during lockdown.

    Or we might see an uptick when couples who haven't seen each for three months get to meet up again.
    Birth control has been available through the pandemic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I presume we are going to see lots of gyms in big trouble shortly. No way they can carry on with no membership fees, with no prospect of opening soon and will be one of the first things closed back down in the winter.
    I am still paying my gym membership fee by direct debit but have not been there since March
    That’s a bit cavalier. Surprised at you. Not disappointed as such but surprised certainly.
    What? Surprised that I am willing to help keep my local gym going through lockdown?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    MattW said:

    Lordy. Media *still* can't get simple numbers right.

    PM programme R4: "Today is 171 deaths *in a day*."

    Do, dear idiots of the BBC, that is NOT today's deaths. That is *reported* deaths.

    What a complete collection of nincompoops.

    3 months of this shit...its worse than debt vs deficit.
    It does my head in that that bloke on Twitter does a better job with the numbers than the entire UK press, and the government's own PR people.

    As well as that the charts on here are better than most of the stuff that gets published by the press.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts

    Ah good, the small talk was always the worst.
    I love talking to my hairdresser. He is Italian. We talk all the time, share gossip and recipes and hugs. We are friends.

    It is part of the fun for me.

    No way are we changing that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    glw said:

    MattW said:

    Lordy. Media *still* can't get simple numbers right.

    PM programme R4: "Today is 171 deaths *in a day*."

    Do, dear idiots of the BBC, that is NOT today's deaths. That is *reported* deaths.

    What a complete collection of nincompoops.

    3 months of this shit...its worse than debt vs deficit.
    It does my head in that that bloke on Twitter does a better job with the numbers than the entire UK press, and the government's own PR people.

    As well as that the charts on here are better than most of the stuff that gets published by the press.
    But if you reported any other number THAT WOULD BE HIDING DEATHS!!!!!!!???!!!!!

    Or something.
  • So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting point of view, (assuming this is the real Serena Williams).

    https://twitter.com/Richie_K143/status/1275371349821849606

    They aren't its a fake I think
    She makes clear she is not THE Serena Williams but wise words anyway
    Wise words and would have been classed as quite "right-on" 5 years ago, now in danger of getting hounded for not being woke
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    edited June 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Bollocks. They have and will continue to be called by the likes of select committees to answer questions.
    I'll second that. Maguire is wrong. We are in this for the long haul, people will pay far more attention if these conferences are not routine. They are already treading over the same ground again and again. They need to be reserved for important announcements such as changes of policy.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604

    Barnesian said:

    I reckon the R in England is now at 0.94. Cases are still declining but at a very slow rate.
    ...

    Are the recent figures inflated relative to earlier ones because we are doing a lot more testing, though? Perhaps you try to adjust for this.
    I'm not trying to adjust for this. Testing has basically plateaued out as far as I can see. But it is difficult to know what is a real test and what is a duplicate on the same person etc. Impossible to adjust for.

    If testing is causing an increase in numbers because of the testing then I am over-estimating R.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    Quote from Ben Bradley, Tory MP for Mansfield on his Facebook page.

    "If Black Lives Matter is a cry for help from communities who feel that they don't have a fair chance in life, then can the 'White Lives Matter' or 'All Lives Matter' reaction not be the same? Why the assumed negative intent? Why is it fine one way, but racist the other way?
    I don't condone the banner, I think it's deeply unhelpful and equally divisive, but it's most likely not about racism. It's simply pointing out that there are some very poor white communities who statistically have some of the worst outcomes in our country - in places like Burnley actually, or Mansfield - which we don't talk about enough or deal with enough. It's literally exactly the same argument as those supporting BLM. It's pointing out that poor white girls are being groomed for sexual abuse and poor white lads are failing at school. That is equally as valid and important.
    Therein lies the inequality that BLM creates... the more were pushed to identify ourselves as 'black' or 'white' the more the colour of our skin becomes an issue. The more it sits at the forefront of people's minds. The right thing to do is to deal with inequalities wherever we find them, not to rank the inequalities in a false order of priority and set people against each other."

    https://www.facebook.com/1361286460616795/posts/3114412391970851/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    Pulpstar said:


    Birth control has been available through the pandemic.

    No birth control is 100% effective.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Scott_xP said:
    That is exactly what Boris said at the dispatch box

    What is wrong with you people
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    Andy_JS said:

    What's wrong with a banner saying "White Lives Matter"?

    Given that the entire thing kicked off because, in the US, it was made very clear and explicit that black lives mattered far less (if they mattered even at all) to the authorities than did white lives and that the “Black Lives Matter” slogan was originated to emphasise that this was wrong (and even in this country, as @Casino_Royale ’s excellent thread brought out), we have problems underlining that quite a few people see black lives as mattering less than white lives), it does smack of outright rejection that anyone should quarrel with that unacceptable and unpleasant state of affairs. Almost a slapdown for having the temerity to not just accept it.

    White lives certainly matter in the US, and to a greater level than do black lives. Sloganising “White Lives Matter” just gets a “well, yes, we know.”

    At best it comes across as “but what about meeeeeee!” from Dudley Dursley when Harry finally gets given something.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Scott_xP said:
    That is exactly what Boris said at the dispatch box

    What is wrong with you people
    It's just wilfull ignorance. I thought Boris sounded quite cautious in the presser actually; you can tell caution is something that doesn't come naturally to him.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, you’d have thought the government would have the guidance on pub reopening actually published on the day Boris announces it all. I mean that’s not too much to expect is it?

    As far as my daughter can make out, the table service will make it very hard to make money. She’s now trying to work out how she can make it work in practice. If she can. Having been a bit hopeful the last few days she is now depressed again.

    What happens, for instance, if there are a lot of drinkers, socially distanced outside, it suddenly rains and they come inside? Or is she meant to force them to stay outside? And when inside she has to allow them 20 mins to finish their drinks anyway.

    I suggest she just uses her common sense. If she gets it wrong she's not going to go to jail or even lose her licence. Whoever points out to her what is wrong will also suggest ways of putting it right. I'm sure they'll be sympathetic.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?

    Next week. First step - a tax on posting on internet blogs!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I presume we are going to see lots of gyms in big trouble shortly. No way they can carry on with no membership fees, with no prospect of opening soon and will be one of the first things closed back down in the winter.
    I am still paying my gym membership fee by direct debit but have not been there since March
    Don’t worry, millions knew that paying the membership is entirely sufficient, before the virus came along.
    I have been a member of a gym for five years and never actually set foot in it.

    The logic is that I wanted membership of the attached golf course and taking out gym membership as well was cheaper than just being an ordinary member of the golf club.
    That’s like how the "Big Mac meal" used to be cheaper than a Big Mac so they ended up paying YOU to eat a portion of chips.

    Dropped when this was pointed out.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    IanB2 said:

    The lifelong Republican who ran McCain’s election campaign nails Trump:

    “ Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

    "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

    "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale. And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."

    That is a very good analysis :+1:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
    I do worry what da yuff are going to get up to. Idle hands and all that.
    Young men might have one idle hand. The other tends to be kept fairly busy.


    Holding a pint glass. What do you think I meant?!?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    HYUFD said:
    Don't begrudge it but far more helpful to society to open up indoor leisure and sports facilities.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts


    A haircut without the "Have you been on holiday?' bollocks sounds divine.
    Let’s face it. Any haircut sounds divine right now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/
    That is a great shame. I know it.

    Yep - it's just really, really bad luck. And the brewery has no incentive to help as they can make a shedload of money by converting it into flats that they can sell for a fortune in that part of London. You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own. Luckily, they are at an age where they can probably retire and my sister also has a Kumon franchise that is proving resilient. But this was a passion and it's almost certainly done for.

    “You put everything you have into creating a business, get a level of success and then see it all fall to pieces through no fault of your own.”

    My daughter feels like this.

    I see the media thing now is now to scream about 1m...1m....we went with 2m, which was larger than any other country, now we are moving to what the WHO advise and many other countries followed from the beginning.

    If we stuck to 2m and all the pubs went bust, they would screaming (and have done) why aren't we following WHO.

    Does anyone have any pub visit stats?

    I know I'm not the target for pubs, what with me being a good Muslim boy and all, but for my younger staff visiting the pub is anachronistic as using dial up internet.
    I bet they go to clubs and music venues though and many of these will disappear. Theatres are closing down too.

    At this rate we’ll be alive, healthy and have fuck all to do or places to go to. We’ll die of boredom and misery and loneliness instead.
    I do worry what da yuff are going to get up to. Idle hands and all that.
    One of the thing that has surprised me, the lack of surprise pregnancies of couples living together during lockdown.

    Or we might see an uptick when couples who haven't seen each for three months get to meet up again.
    Coronaboomers!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    IanB2 said:

    The lifelong Republican who ran McCain’s election campaign nails Trump:

    “ Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

    "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

    "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale. And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."

    That is a very good analysis :+1:
    I dunno. It seems a bit trenchant. I mean, what have idiots, imbeciles and conmen ever done to deserve being compared to Trump?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?

    Never, austerity died when Leave won the referendum of 2016 and Osborne resigned and May lost her majority in 2017 and Boris took over as PM
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    What's wrong with a banner saying "White Lives Matter"?

    Given that the entire thing kicked off because, in the US, it was made very clear and explicit that black lives mattered far less (if they mattered even at all) to the authorities than did white lives and that the “Black Lives Matter” slogan was originated to emphasise that this was wrong (and even in this country, as @Casino_Royale ’s excellent thread brought out), we have problems underlining that quite a few people see black lives as mattering less than white lives), it does smack of outright rejection that anyone should quarrel with that unacceptable and unpleasant state of affairs. Almost a slapdown for having the temerity to not just accept it.

    White lives certainly matter in the US, and to a greater level than do black lives. Sloganising “White Lives Matter” just gets a “well, yes, we know.”

    At best it comes across as “but what about meeeeeee!” from Dudley Dursley when Harry finally gets given something.
    Black Lives matter to the authorities far more than they do to certain black people. In just one one US city (Chicago) last week-end there were 100 shootings, and 14 deaths. Four of those were teenagers and one a child. The only thing standing between the black community and even more wholesale slaughter is the police force. A force BLM wants to defund.

    Black on black violence is a nightmare proportions in America's cities, and it is completely ignored by 'black lives matter'

    What a misnomer. What a gigantic political lie.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    HYUFD said:

    So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?

    Never, austerity died when Leave won the referendum of 2016 and Osborne resigned and May lost her majority in 2019 and Boris took over as PM
    May lost her majority in 2019?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts

    A haircut without the "Have you been on holiday?' bollocks sounds divine.
    You just know they're still going to say it...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    IanB2 said:

    The lifelong Republican who ran McCain’s election campaign nails Trump:

    “ Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

    "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

    "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale. And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."

    Put him down as a maybe.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?

    Never, austerity died when Leave won the referendum of 2016 and Osborne resigned and May lost her majority in 2019 and Boris took over as PM
    May lost her majority in 2019?
    I think he meant to say 'when May lost David Cameron's majority in 2017.'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    IanB2 said:

    The lifelong Republican who ran McCain’s election campaign nails Trump:

    “ Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

    "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

    "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed
    businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale. And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."


    That is a very good analysis :+1:
    A bit understated, I thought.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?

    Never, austerity died when Leave won the referendum of 2016 and Osborne resigned and May lost her majority in 2019 and Boris took over as PM
    May lost her majority in 2019?
    I think he meant to say 'when May lost David Cameron's majority in 2017.'
    No, when Boris won back the Tories majority with a bigger majority than Cameron in 2019 having abandoned austerity for all must have cake
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:
    Don't begrudge it but far more helpful to society to open up indoor leisure and sports facilities.
    Covid spreads fastest indoors and when at a running pace, that is why they are still not open
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts


    A haircut without the "Have you been on holiday?' bollocks sounds divine.
    Let’s face it. Any haircut sounds divine right now.
    It's going to take a while for mine to grow back after my DIY Number 3.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Andy_JS said:

    Quote from Ben Bradley, Tory MP for Mansfield on his Facebook page.

    "If Black Lives Matter is a cry for help from communities who feel that they don't have a fair chance in life, then can the 'White Lives Matter' or 'All Lives Matter' reaction not be the same? Why the assumed negative intent? Why is it fine one way, but racist the other way?
    I don't condone the banner, I think it's deeply unhelpful and equally divisive, but it's most likely not about racism. It's simply pointing out that there are some very poor white communities who statistically have some of the worst outcomes in our country - in places like Burnley actually, or Mansfield - which we don't talk about enough or deal with enough. It's literally exactly the same argument as those supporting BLM. It's pointing out that poor white girls are being groomed for sexual abuse and poor white lads are failing at school. That is equally as valid and important.
    Therein lies the inequality that BLM creates... the more were pushed to identify ourselves as 'black' or 'white' the more the colour of our skin becomes an issue. The more it sits at the forefront of people's minds. The right thing to do is to deal with inequalities wherever we find them, not to rank the inequalities in a false order of priority and set people against each other."

    https://www.facebook.com/1361286460616795/posts/3114412391970851/

    Could Ben become the Martin Luther King for the oppressed white working classes of England?

    And does he need to quit the Tory Party to do this or can he multi-task?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Andy_JS said:

    What's wrong with a banner saying "White Lives Matter"?

    Given that the entire thing kicked off because, in the US, it was made very clear and explicit that black lives mattered far less (if they mattered even at all) to the authorities than did white lives and that the “Black Lives Matter” slogan was originated to emphasise that this was wrong (and even in this country, as @Casino_Royale ’s excellent thread brought out), we have problems underlining that quite a few people see black lives as mattering less than white lives), it does smack of outright rejection that anyone should quarrel with that unacceptable and unpleasant state of affairs. Almost a slapdown for having the temerity to not just accept it.

    White lives certainly matter in the US, and to a greater level than do black lives. Sloganising “White Lives Matter” just gets a “well, yes, we know.”

    At best it comes across as “but what about meeeeeee!” from Dudley Dursley when Harry finally gets given something.
    Black Lives matter to the authorities far more than they do to certain black people. In just one one US city (Chicago) last week-end there were 100 shootings, and 14 deaths. Four of those were teenagers and one a child. The only thing standing between the black community and even more wholesale slaughter is the police force. A force BLM wants to defund.

    Black on black violence is a nightmare proportions in America's cities, and it is completely ignored by 'black lives matter'

    What a misnomer. What a gigantic political lie.
    Are you OK? This looks like a plea for help.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?

    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    https://images.app.goo.gl/vYx89JhpuLhvuexV6

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    So when will Johnson announce austerity 2.0?

    Never, austerity died when Leave won the referendum of 2016 and Osborne resigned and May lost her majority in 2017 and Boris took over as PM
    Build Build Build - apparently.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mitigation for hairdressers I'd imagine involves the hairdresser wearing a mask (& possibly the customer) and no smalltalk, and definitely no cups of tea offered !

    It's not quite getting a haircut as many people know it, but it'll be a facility that's able to provide haircuts


    A haircut without the "Have you been on holiday?' bollocks sounds divine.
    Let’s face it. Any haircut sounds divine right now.
    It's going to take a while for mine to grow back after my DIY Number 3.
    I don’t think mine will ever grow back.

    I think this is where I bow to the advancing years and go for a skinhead look.

    But I can’t be bothered to do it until the summer holidays.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    HYUFD said:
    Time to defund the Police if they want to keep on entrenching their bigotry.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Barnesian said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, you’d have thought the government would have the guidance on pub reopening actually published on the day Boris announces it all. I mean that’s not too much to expect is it?

    As far as my daughter can make out, the table service will make it very hard to make money. She’s now trying to work out how she can make it work in practice. If she can. Having been a bit hopeful the last few days she is now depressed again.

    What happens, for instance, if there are a lot of drinkers, socially distanced outside, it suddenly rains and they come inside? Or is she meant to force them to stay outside? And when inside she has to allow them 20 mins to finish their drinks anyway.

    I suggest she just uses her common sense. If she gets it wrong she's not going to go to jail or even lose her licence. Whoever points out to her what is wrong will also suggest ways of putting it right. I'm sure they'll be sympathetic.
    I hope you are right.

    But Environmental Health Officers and the local police can have a jobsworth mentality. And can, if they’re bloody-minded, impose conditions on licences etc.

    It’s not her common-sense or judgment which is the issue. It’s whether the authorities have any and whether you get some customer moaning about it all and making trouble.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Quote from Ben Bradley, Tory MP for Mansfield on his Facebook page.

    "If Black Lives Matter is a cry for help from communities who feel that they don't have a fair chance in life, then can the 'White Lives Matter' or 'All Lives Matter' reaction not be the same? Why the assumed negative intent? Why is it fine one way, but racist the other way?
    I don't condone the banner, I think it's deeply unhelpful and equally divisive, but it's most likely not about racism. It's simply pointing out that there are some very poor white communities who statistically have some of the worst outcomes in our country - in places like Burnley actually, or Mansfield - which we don't talk about enough or deal with enough. It's literally exactly the same argument as those supporting BLM. It's pointing out that poor white girls are being groomed for sexual abuse and poor white lads are failing at school. That is equally as valid and important.
    Therein lies the inequality that BLM creates... the more were pushed to identify ourselves as 'black' or 'white' the more the colour of our skin becomes an issue. The more it sits at the forefront of people's minds. The right thing to do is to deal with inequalities wherever we find them, not to rank the inequalities in a false order of priority and set people against each other."

    https://www.facebook.com/1361286460616795/posts/3114412391970851/

    Could Ben become the Martin Luther King for the oppressed white working classes of England?

    And does he need to quit the Tory Party to do this or can he multi-task?
    The white working classes voted Tory at the last general election, indeed more so than the white upper middle classes for the first time ever
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."

    - Charles Darwin
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    What's wrong with a banner saying "White Lives Matter"?

    Given that the entire thing kicked off because, in the US, it was made very clear and explicit that black lives mattered far less (if they mattered even at all) to the authorities than did white lives and that the “Black Lives Matter” slogan was originated to emphasise that this was wrong (and even in this country, as @Casino_Royale ’s excellent thread brought out), we have problems underlining that quite a few people see black lives as mattering less than white lives), it does smack of outright rejection that anyone should quarrel with that unacceptable and unpleasant state of affairs. Almost a slapdown for having the temerity to not just accept it.

    White lives certainly matter in the US, and to a greater level than do black lives. Sloganising “White Lives Matter” just gets a “well, yes, we know.”

    At best it comes across as “but what about meeeeeee!” from Dudley Dursley when Harry finally gets given something.
    Black Lives matter to the authorities far more than they do to certain black people. In just one one US city (Chicago) last week-end there were 100 shootings, and 14 deaths. Four of those were teenagers and one a child. The only thing standing between the black community and even more wholesale slaughter is the police force. A force BLM wants to defund.

    Black on black violence is a nightmare proportions in America's cities, and it is completely ignored by 'black lives matter'

    What a misnomer. What a gigantic political lie.
    Are you OK? This looks like a plea for help.
    I am absolutely fine. You don;t find those numbers alarming and appalling?? Its amazing what the woke can ignore when it suits their purpose.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Don't begrudge it but far more helpful to society to open up indoor leisure and sports facilities.
    Covid spreads fastest indoors and when at a running pace, that is why they are still not open
    Sounds like most gyms would be safe enough.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Is it clear that all pubs in England can open from 4th July? There had been suggestions that only those with garden areas etc would be permiited to do so initially.

    Yes, you order by app at your table if indoors
    The app is not compulsory, first, because not everyone has a smartphone and, second, because - as here - the broadband is simply insufficient to allow it to work. So someone will have to come to your table to take an order, get it ready and bring it back. That will inevitably slow down the service.

    My sister's pub is almost certain to close down as it is essentially a music venue dependent on getting a decent crowd into a small space and so cannot function if there is any kind of social distancing. It's a real shame. They put their hearts and souls into building it up into a viable business.

    http://www.thefiddlerselbow.co.uk/



    I presume we are going to see lots of gyms in big trouble shortly. No way they can carry on with no membership fees, with no prospect of opening soon and will be one of the first things closed back down in the winter.
    I am still paying my gym membership fee by direct debit but have not been there since March
    That’s a bit cavalier. Surprised at you. Not disappointed as such but surprised certainly.
    What? Surprised that I am willing to help keep my local gym going through lockdown?
    Ah I see - not a faceless chain then.

    That's different. What a sweetie.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    I thought Asian lives matter would have been a more provocative banner; but it seems they aren’t keen on them either.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."

    - Charles Darwin
    Hence he believed in evolution as well as God
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."

    - Charles Darwin
    Hence he believed in evolution as well as God
    He didn’t believe in God. He was an agnostic.

    In fact, the whole story of Charles Darwin is an interesting one of a man who was nervous of his own conclusions.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    Worry not, I'm told 'it's most likely not about racism'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    Burnley voted 66% Leave and elected a Tory MP for the first time since 1910 last year
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."

    - Charles Darwin
    Hence he believed in evolution as well as God
    He described himself as agnostic and went for walks on Sunday rather than attending church.

    Based on the quote above, he did not expect much from God...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."

    - Charles Darwin
    Hence he believed in evolution as well as God
    He described himself as agnostic and went for walks on Sunday rather than attending church.

    Based on the quote above, he did not expect much from God...
    Nobody should expect much from God, you run your own life and he judges you at the end of it, you can pray for guidance that is it
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Ben Bradley strikes me as an utter helmet. I say this not because of his latest missive, but because of his general bellendery since becoming an MP.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    The lifelong Republican who ran McCain’s election campaign nails Trump:

    “ Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

    "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

    "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale. And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."

    Great piece. Though technically Trump is second-worst, which is quite fitting really. For a man who has a lifelong history of failure he can't even successfully emulate his hero who is the worst of all time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders

    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."



    - Charles Darwin


    I think that he felt the same about parasitoid wasps which are, in fairness, seriously disgusting.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Why don’t gym members go for a run or bike ride? @Hyufd lives next to Epping Forest FFS, he’s not exactly short of bucolic open countryside.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited June 2020
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    I thought Asian lives matter would have been a more provocative banner; but it seems they aren’t keen on them either.

    A while back The Times did an in depth analysis on the Football Lads Alliance and their secret facebook page, plenty of Burnley fans on there.

    They really don't like anyone isn't a white English person.

    Plenty of banning orders and football related violence amongst that place.

    The only time I have been personally abused at a football match (well on the way out) was by Chelsea fans, fortunately a very large group of Liverpool fans told them to piss off and created a ring of steel for me.

    A few years ago I did see and hear a bunch of West Ham fans making hissing sounds* and talking about finishing off what Hitler started, though that was aimed at fans of Spurs.

    *It was only later did I realise what the hissing sounds were about.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Don't begrudge it but far more helpful to society to open up indoor leisure and sports facilities.
    Covid spreads fastest indoors and when at a running pace, that is why they are still not open
    Sounds like most gyms would be safe enough.
    I’ll have you know I can get up to 6mph in my gym.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    Burnley voted 66% Leave and elected a Tory MP for the first time since 1910 last year
    I truly despise you. That you said that in response to his post - you are sickening.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Don't begrudge it but far more helpful to society to open up indoor leisure and sports facilities.
    Covid spreads fastest indoors and when at a running pace, that is why they are still not open
    Sounds like most gyms would be safe enough.
    I’ll have you know I can get up to 6mph in my gym.
    They have scooters?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Quote from Ben Bradley, Tory MP for Mansfield on his Facebook page.

    "If Black Lives Matter is a cry for help from communities who feel that they don't have a fair chance in life, then can the 'White Lives Matter' or 'All Lives Matter' reaction not be the same? Why the assumed negative intent? Why is it fine one way, but racist the other way?
    I don't condone the banner, I think it's deeply unhelpful and equally divisive, but it's most likely not about racism. It's simply pointing out that there are some very poor white communities who statistically have some of the worst outcomes in our country - in places like Burnley actually, or Mansfield - which we don't talk about enough or deal with enough. It's literally exactly the same argument as those supporting BLM. It's pointing out that poor white girls are being groomed for sexual abuse and poor white lads are failing at school. That is equally as valid and important.
    Therein lies the inequality that BLM creates... the more were pushed to identify ourselves as 'black' or 'white' the more the colour of our skin becomes an issue. The more it sits at the forefront of people's minds. The right thing to do is to deal with inequalities wherever we find them, not to rank the inequalities in a false order of priority and set people against each other."

    https://www.facebook.com/1361286460616795/posts/3114412391970851/

    Could Ben become the Martin Luther King for the oppressed white working classes of England?

    And does he need to quit the Tory Party to do this or can he multi-task?
    The white working classes voted Tory at the last general election, indeed more so than the white upper middle classes for the first time ever
    The current number one on my "sad but true" list. Just ahead of my wife telling me last week that she no longer respects me and she's off as soon as the money is sorted.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    Worry not, I'm told 'it's most likely not about racism'.
    I did see on social media earlier that Jake Hepple is not only a fan of Tommy Robinson but he's also from the school of thought that says 'Enoch was right'.

    Like you said, it's most likely not about racism.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    Worry not, I'm told 'it's most likely not about racism'.
    I did see on social media earlier that Jake Hepple is not only a fan of Tommy Robinson but he's also from the school of thought that says 'Enoch was right'.

    Like you said, it's most likely not about racism.
    As I remember, Enoch Powell voted Labour at one point.

    Does that make it a racist party? :trollface:
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    Changed his mind? Confused how a loving God came up with Covid?
    Man has free will and it was the Chinese government who allowed Covid to spread beyond its borders
    "There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars ..."

    - Charles Darwin
    Hence he believed in evolution as well as God
    He described himself as agnostic and went for walks on Sunday rather than attending church.

    Based on the quote above, he did not expect much from God...
    Nobody should expect much from God, you run your own life and he judges you at the end of it, you can pray for guidance that is it
    I am in no danger of being judged by any God
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited June 2020
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:
    I am shocked, SHOCKED that people that think Tommy Robinson is a hero turn out to be less than lovely people.
    Worry not, I'm told 'it's most likely not about racism'.
    I did see on social media earlier that Jake Hepple is not only a fan of Tommy Robinson but he's also from the school of thought that says 'Enoch was right'.

    Like you said, it's most likely not about racism.
    As I remember, Enoch Powell voted Labour at one point.

    Does that make it a racist party? :trollface:
    Well.

    The other thing that fascinated me about old Enoch was that for a man who is said to abhor communal violence he decided to up sticks and move to Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    Barnesian said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, you’d have thought the government would have the guidance on pub reopening actually published on the day Boris announces it all. I mean that’s not too much to expect is it?

    As far as my daughter can make out, the table service will make it very hard to make money. She’s now trying to work out how she can make it work in practice. If she can. Having been a bit hopeful the last few days she is now depressed again.

    What happens, for instance, if there are a lot of drinkers, socially distanced outside, it suddenly rains and they come inside? Or is she meant to force them to stay outside? And when inside she has to allow them 20 mins to finish their drinks anyway.

    I suggest she just uses her common sense. If she gets it wrong she's not going to go to jail or even lose her licence. Whoever points out to her what is wrong will also suggest ways of putting it right. I'm sure they'll be sympathetic.
    I hope you are right.

    But Environmental Health Officers and the local police can have a jobsworth mentality. And can, if they’re bloody-minded, impose conditions on licences etc.

    It’s not her common-sense or judgment which is the issue. It’s whether the authorities have any and whether you get some customer moaning about it all and making trouble.
    The EHO and Police generally take a view in my experience that if you are trying your best then they should respect that and use common sense. In my experience you need to really cross the line to earn their ire.

    I would hope and expect the EHO would base their responses in large part based upon existing Hygiene Ratings. If you've got a 5 star hygiene rating in normal circumstances then you clearly care about cleanliness and should be trusted to do so now. If on the other hand a premise has a 0 or 1 star hygiene rating they should be the ones the EHO are concentrating on.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    The lifelong Republican who ran McCain’s election campaign nails Trump:

    “ Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

    "When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

    "It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed
    businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale. And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."


    That is a very good analysis :+1:
    A bit understated, I thought.
    It did miss out a few things. Word count limits I suppose.
This discussion has been closed.