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  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher wanted to leave it at 50% I believe. Lawson convinced her to cut it to 40%.
    Even leaving it at 50% represented a cut of 33% on what Callaghan and Healey left her.

    Cutting it to 40% as she agreed to led to the Lawson boom and it was kept at that level by Major and Blair until Brown raised it again
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Dura_Ace said:

    Oh, and having a Union Jack painted on your aircraft. Does that make sense, even if you actually agree with all these actions?

    You just know the 'Brexit Belle' is going to be absolute cringe when it rolls out of the Marshall hangar.
    Everything about this government is cringeworthy. It's as if they're inhabited by the spirit of Alan Partridge.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    You are glad?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher wanted to leave it at 50% I believe. Lawson convinced her to cut it to 40%.
    Even leaving it at 50% represented a cut of 33% on what Callaghan and Healey left her.

    Cutting it to 40% as she agreed to led to the Lawson boo and it was kept at that level by Major and Blair until Brown raised it again
    You do know how the Lawson boo(m) ended, right?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is there a list anywhere of which football games are available Free To Air?

    I believe the Merseyside Derby is this weekend but not sure which other games are.

    https://www.live-footballontv.com/

    Search for pick or bbc.
    Thanks!

    So all the Sky ones that are Free To Air are listed as Pick?

    Are BT not doing any Free To Air ones?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    If I was the government I would announce a one year increase in the top rate of tax to 50%.

    It would be unofficially dubbed the Rashford tax.

    A one year tax hike would raise very little because a whole industry exists to help people shift tax liabilities from one tax year to another. In my view it was a mistake to cut the top tax rate to 45%. Those with the broadest shoulders can easily afford to contribute more, the top rate should go back to 50% and stay there.
    A lot of the people with these broadest shoulders are currently facing 50-70% reductions in income with last year's tax bill deferred to January 2021 but still payable. It is the better paid self employed and entrepreneurial class that have taken most of the hit from Covid. The idea that they are going to generate additional tax income in the next few years is frankly fanciful.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher also left office with government debt as a lower proportion of GDP and had the country running a trade surplus through most of her premiership.

    Were those things not worth imitating as well ?
    Cutting tax boosts Government revenues too
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    RobD said:

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    You are glad?
    Speaks volumes about the poster. I notice Jacinda isn't happy...and isn't blaming the two people involved:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/new-zealand-brings-in-military-after-covid-19-quarantine-fiasco
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Is there a list anywhere of which football games are available Free To Air?

    I believe the Merseyside Derby is this weekend but not sure which other games are.

    https://www.live-footballontv.com/

    Search for pick or bbc.
    Thanks!

    So all the Sky ones that are Free To Air are listed as Pick?

    Are BT not doing any Free To Air ones?
    They are not.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    DavidL said:

    If I was the government I would announce a one year increase in the top rate of tax to 50%.

    It would be unofficially dubbed the Rashford tax.

    A one year tax hike would raise very little because a whole industry exists to help people shift tax liabilities from one tax year to another. In my view it was a mistake to cut the top tax rate to 45%. Those with the broadest shoulders can easily afford to contribute more, the top rate should go back to 50% and stay there.
    A lot of the people with these broadest shoulders are currently facing 50-70% reductions in income with last year's tax bill deferred to January 2021 but still payable. It is the better paid self employed and entrepreneurial class that have taken most of the hit from Covid. The idea that they are going to generate additional tax income in the next few years is frankly fanciful.
    If their income is down that much they won't be in the top tax band. By definition I am talking about people who are still earning good money.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Scott_xP said:

    Prime ministers announce changes to government structures for one of two reasons. Either they are frustrated in pursuit of some cherished policy, or they are panicking that events are running away from them. Moving Whitehall furniture creates a comforting illusion of control.

    Since Boris Johnson doesn’t cherish much beyond the idea of himself as a figure of greatness, the safe bet is that his plan to merge the Foreign Office with the Department for International Development belongs in the category of gestural distraction.

    The rationale is that a hybrid ministry will more efficiently represent the interests of “global Britain”. Even if that were a feasible outcome, now is hardly the time. It calls to mind the late Denis Healey’s maxim that the moment to remove a man’s appendix is not when he is busy carrying a piano up a flight of stairs.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/17/incompetence-boris-johnson-government-cabinet-britain

    Ah yes, the now-is-not-the-time argument. When all else fails.

    I'm reasonably sure that some proposals for the 1265 parliment were put off with this excuse.

    And we are probably still waiting on some of them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    DavidL said:

    If I was the government I would announce a one year increase in the top rate of tax to 50%.

    It would be unofficially dubbed the Rashford tax.

    A one year tax hike would raise very little because a whole industry exists to help people shift tax liabilities from one tax year to another. In my view it was a mistake to cut the top tax rate to 45%. Those with the broadest shoulders can easily afford to contribute more, the top rate should go back to 50% and stay there.
    A lot of the people with these broadest shoulders are currently facing 50-70% reductions in income with last year's tax bill deferred to January 2021 but still payable. It is the better paid self employed and entrepreneurial class that have taken most of the hit from Covid. The idea that they are going to generate additional tax income in the next few years is frankly fanciful.
    If their income is down that much they won't be in the top tax band. By definition I am talking about people who are still earning good money.
    I think a super tax on people earning more than about ten million a year should suffice.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Gina Williamson doesn't scrub up too bad. And Pete Patel looks quite the ladies man. :lol:
    Dominique Raab and Pete Patel are both SMOKING hot *swoon*
    Unless 'Peter Kay in drag' does it for you the big disappointment is Beatrice Johnson.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    RobD said:

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    You are glad?
    You can be a proper wrong'un when you're left wing you know. It confers all absolution from sins, past present or future.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher also left office with government debt as a lower proportion of GDP and had the country running a trade surplus through most of her premiership.

    Were those things not worth imitating as well ?
    Cutting tax boosts Government revenues too
    So does increasing tax. It depends where you are on the 'havingalaffer' curve.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    If one were rational your forecast for a collapse in government support seems inevitable. I am no longer sure. I know people a step away from living in a cardboard box on the M1 who still think Johnson plans to save them.

    The false bon hommie and the dog whisle racism still cut through any notion of incompetence.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tlg86 said:

    Is there a list anywhere of which football games are available Free To Air?

    I believe the Merseyside Derby is this weekend but not sure which other games are.

    https://www.live-footballontv.com/

    Search for pick or bbc.
    Thanks!

    So all the Sky ones that are Free To Air are listed as Pick?

    Are BT not doing any Free To Air ones?
    They are not.
    Thanks.

    Don't have any Sports channels but have got Amazon Prime (for the shopping more than anything else), so its Pick, BBC and Amazon to keep an eye out for then.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    If there wasnt a triple lock in place can someone explain the need for one to be created? If we wanted to maintain the gap and keep pensioners richer than workers that could be done by linking pensions just with earnings. Why is there a need to make pensioners even richer than workers?

    How is this good for society?
    The full state pension is £134.25 per week, seven grand a year, or equivalent to working 15.3 hours per week at minimum wage. Doesn’t sound like state pensioners are particularly rich.
    Not a pensioner so no expert. AgeUK says the full pension is £175.20. can anyone adjudicate?

    I get £169 a week state pension (so it's more than £134.25). I retired very early (25 years ago) so the full pension is probably more than £169 as I probably didn't pay enough years NI. Can't remember.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    You are glad?
    Speaks volumes about the poster. I notice Jacinda isn't happy...and isn't blaming the two people involved:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/new-zealand-brings-in-military-after-covid-19-quarantine-fiasco
    Now that's a Gov't taking the virus seriously. Calls for the health minister to be sacked over 2 cases !
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Everything about this government is cringeworthy. It's as if they're inhabited by the spirit of Alan Partridge.


    Johnson recruited from a pool of people who either believed in wanton national vandalism under the banner of ideological delusion, or were happy to countenance it to advance their careers. It is not a coincidence that such a team has struggled with the complex challenges raised by a pandemic. There might be clever, able individuals among them but those qualities have to battle the wilful stupefaction that was their entry fee to cabinet. It is a collective flaw that no rebadging or abolition of ministries can fix. When the qualification for joining the government is loyalty to bad ideas, it is no surprise that Britain is badly governed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited June 2020
    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    You are glad?
    Speaks volumes about the poster. I notice Jacinda isn't happy...and isn't blaming the two people involved:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/new-zealand-brings-in-military-after-covid-19-quarantine-fiasco
    To be fair, it's difficult to blame the people involved, unless they knew that they might have been in contact with someone in the previous 7-10 days. It does seem to have been a failure of NZ's quarantine system.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    MaxPB said:



    After about 10 mins the conclusion was that this far and no further, longer term thinking is needed on the subject which includes better guidance for parents on child nutrition and it may be better to send weekly food parcels to households than give vouchers.

    The govt capped child tax credits at 2 kids.
    The stated reason was to "teach parents that children cost money".

    It seems the govt is now learning the lesson that if you, (in a very targeted and deliberate manner), reduce support to the most vulnerable, you end up in a situation where children don't have enough to eat.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher wanted to leave it at 50% I believe. Lawson convinced her to cut it to 40%.
    And receipts went up.

    It's almost as if tax isn't just the government collecting whatever they feel like - the taxed react.

    For example, the famous 98% supertax - it never actually raised any money.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    I know people a step away from living in a cardboard box on the M1 who still think Johnson plans to save them.

    And that's just Jenrick.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Dura_Ace said:

    Oh, and having a Union Jack painted on your aircraft. Does that make sense, even if you actually agree with all these actions?

    You just know the 'Brexit Belle' is going to be absolute cringe when it rolls out of the Marshall hangar.
    Everything about this government is cringeworthy. It's as if they're inhabited by the spirit of Alan Partridge.
    Yes indeed. And the bit I'm most reminded of is where his bollocks are hanging out.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    If I was the government I would announce a one year increase in the top rate of tax to 50%.

    It would be unofficially dubbed the Rashford tax.

    A one year tax hike would raise very little because a whole industry exists to help people shift tax liabilities from one tax year to another. In my view it was a mistake to cut the top tax rate to 45%. Those with the broadest shoulders can easily afford to contribute more, the top rate should go back to 50% and stay there.
    A lot of the people with these broadest shoulders are currently facing 50-70% reductions in income with last year's tax bill deferred to January 2021 but still payable. It is the better paid self employed and entrepreneurial class that have taken most of the hit from Covid. The idea that they are going to generate additional tax income in the next few years is frankly fanciful.
    If their income is down that much they won't be in the top tax band. By definition I am talking about people who are still earning good money.
    The point is that that there are a relatively small number of higher rate taxpayers. That number is going to be significantly reduced and many of those who paid the most tax in the past will have serious cash flow issues. The overall tax take from the better off is going to be down, significantly down, on what the government has been receiving the last several years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:



    After about 10 mins the conclusion was that this far and no further, longer term thinking is needed on the subject which includes better guidance for parents on child nutrition and it may be better to send weekly food parcels to households than give vouchers.

    The govt capped child tax credits at 2 kids.
    The stated reason was to "teach parents that children cost money".

    It seems the govt is now learning the lesson that if you, (in a very targeted and deliberate manner), reduce support to the most vulnerable, you end up in a situation where children don't have enough to eat.
    Capping tax credits was the right move.

    Child benefit is not capped.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Dura_Ace said:

    I know people a step away from living in a cardboard box on the M1 who still think Johnson plans to save them.

    And that's just Jenrick.
    A genuine lol!
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher also left office with government debt as a lower proportion of GDP and had the country running a trade surplus through most of her premiership.

    Were those things not worth imitating as well ?
    Cutting tax boosts Government revenues too
    Cutting tax can boost revenues. Depending on a whole bunch of circumstances.
    Otherwise you would have maximum revenues at 0% tax rates across the board. Few people believe this.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited June 2020

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Glad to see that the UK are responsible for the Covid outbreak in New Zealand. So, if you are Greece or Spain debating whether or not to quarantine UK visitors are you minded to be thinking (a) Yes, or (b) No

    As I posted on here before. The real collapse in the government's ratings will be when EU countries are off on holiday to some sunspot and pox-filled UK is banned. A few days of "Bloody EU" headlines in the Mail won't make up for the reality that the UK is like a plague pit in comparison with other countries.

    You are glad?
    Speaks volumes about the poster. I notice Jacinda isn't happy...and isn't blaming the two people involved:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/new-zealand-brings-in-military-after-covid-19-quarantine-fiasco
    To be fair, it's difficult to blame the people involved, unless they knew that they might have been in contact with someone in the previous 7-10 days. It does seem to have been a failure of NZ's quarantine system.
    Compassionate exemption from quarantine being removed. Shows just what a different place a country is when/were the virus has almost been completely eliminated compared to here where relatively speaking it's still rampant.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher wanted to leave it at 50% I believe. Lawson convinced her to cut it to 40%.
    And receipts went up.

    It's almost as if tax isn't just the government collecting whatever they feel like - the taxed react.

    For example, the famous 98% supertax - it never actually raised any money.
    But the true cost was more than financial. We lost Rod Stewart and Tom Jones.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Downing Street said later BoZo did know about it, so clueless or a liar. Or both.

    As to the Chancellor's woes

    https://twitter.com/jillianfward/status/1273168072808058882
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    If I was the government I would announce a one year increase in the top rate of tax to 50%.

    It would be unofficially dubbed the Rashford tax.

    A one year tax hike would raise very little because a whole industry exists to help people shift tax liabilities from one tax year to another. In my view it was a mistake to cut the top tax rate to 45%. Those with the broadest shoulders can easily afford to contribute more, the top rate should go back to 50% and stay there.
    A lot of the people with these broadest shoulders are currently facing 50-70% reductions in income with last year's tax bill deferred to January 2021 but still payable. It is the better paid self employed and entrepreneurial class that have taken most of the hit from Covid. The idea that they are going to generate additional tax income in the next few years is frankly fanciful.
    If their income is down that much they won't be in the top tax band. By definition I am talking about people who are still earning good money.
    The point is that that there are a relatively small number of higher rate taxpayers. That number is going to be significantly reduced and many of those who paid the most tax in the past will have serious cash flow issues. The overall tax take from the better off is going to be down, significantly down, on what the government has been receiving the last several years.
    So you may need to ask those who are still earning good money to pay a bit more to make up the shortfall.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Sunak's best hope is for Johnson to fall on his sword whilst Sunak's stock remains high. That window of opportunity could be very small.

    Sadly for Sunak, I can't envisage any scandal big enough to topple Johnson.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    I thought they weren't bringing back Little Britain ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Downing Street said later BoZo did know about it, so clueless or a liar. Or both.

    As to the Chancellor's woes

    https://twitter.com/jillianfward/status/1273168072808058882
    That really is complete rubbish. Yes the incidence of Covid is higher in densely populated, poorer areas. But no, that has little to nothing to do with the economic impact on those areas. Being blunt about it the vast majority of those who have died were past retirement age. Unlike, say, the Black Death, Covid is going to have a minimal effect on the supply of labour. What is going to be hurt most is the leisure/retail sectors and they are not particularly strong in areas of multiple depravation.

    Edit, on Boris I agree and my vote is for clueless.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Anyone else been watching the Salisbury Poisonings? The New Zealand situation is reminiscent of the poor chap who found the scent bottle and gave it to his girl friend, who subsequently died. Interestingly, the bottle had been wrapped in hard plastic, as though the two who dumped it had some sort of residual care for their fellow humans.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting observation from James Forsyth on R4 - new Tory MPs are thinking more like US Congressmen “what’s in it for my constituents” than “what’s the party line” - hence the growing revolt over free school meals where lots of “red wall” Tory MPs have plenty of constituents who are in receipt of them. Which makes an ideologically driven No.10 even less fit for purpose.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1272937984837292032?s=20
    Good observation.

    Our local red wall Tory MPs not being at all provocative on facebook this morning. Ahem.

    "Five years ago Ben Bradley was the Office Manager for the Sherwood MP and I was the Office Manager for the Ashfield MP. Although in different parties we became friends. Fast forward 5 years and Ben is the MP for Mansfield and I am the MP for Ashfield but now we are in the same party.

    It's Red t'blue. Best thing I ever did and Ashfield & Mansfield now have a strong voice."


    Boris needs a Jeeves.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Anyone else been watching the Salisbury Poisonings? The New Zealand situation is reminiscent of the poor chap who found the scent bottle and gave it to his girl friend, who subsequently died. Interestingly, the bottle had been wrapped in hard plastic, as though the two who dumped it had some sort of residual care for their fellow humans.

    I'm not really seeing the connection. How are the two situations similar?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    Everything about this government is cringeworthy. It's as if they're inhabited by the spirit of Alan Partridge.


    Johnson recruited from a pool of people who either believed in wanton national vandalism under the banner of ideological delusion, or were happy to countenance it to advance their careers. It is not a coincidence that such a team has struggled with the complex challenges raised by a pandemic. There might be clever, able individuals among them but those qualities have to battle the wilful stupefaction that was their entry fee to cabinet. It is a collective flaw that no rebadging or abolition of ministries can fix. When the qualification for joining the government is loyalty to bad ideas, it is no surprise that Britain is badly governed.


    The Suella Braverman appointment is the most egregious example of this. The only reason she seems to have got the attorney-general job is because when the time comes she will provide the legal advice she is told to - unlike someone such as Geoffrey Cox, say. We have already had an early hint of that with her reaction to the Cummings affair.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    edited June 2020
    Nigelb said:

    I thought they weren't bringing back Little Britain ?
    His hair is nearly that long already, although a great deal less well coiffured.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    If there wasnt a triple lock in place can someone explain the need for one to be created? If we wanted to maintain the gap and keep pensioners richer than workers that could be done by linking pensions just with earnings. Why is there a need to make pensioners even richer than workers?

    How is this good for society?
    The full state pension is £134.25 per week, seven grand a year, or equivalent to working 15.3 hours per week at minimum wage. Doesn’t sound like state pensioners are particularly rich.
    Not a pensioner so no expert. AgeUK says the full pension is £175.20. can anyone adjudicate?

    My source: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension or https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/what-youll-get
    Source for your number: https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get

    Rather annoyingly, the gov website is terribly bad at putting dates on websites, or noting pages that contain out of date information written in the present tense.


    Wiki says that BOTH numbers are correct, depending on the age of the recipient. Yours apply to men born after 1951 and women born after 1953, whereas mine apply to people older than those dates.

    Sounds like more simplification required!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Scott_xP said:

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Downing Street said later BoZo did know about it, so clueless or a liar. Or both.

    As to the Chancellor's woes

    https://twitter.com/jillianfward/status/1273168072808058882
    Lol Sheffield, Liverpool and Manchester aren't the brexit heartlands. You might as well label the whole of England ex London "brexit heartlands" if you're going to do that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Anyone else been watching the Salisbury Poisonings? The New Zealand situation is reminiscent of the poor chap who found the scent bottle and gave it to his girl friend, who subsequently died. Interestingly, the bottle had been wrapped in hard plastic, as though the two who dumped it had some sort of residual care for their fellow humans.

    Yes, I am. Shades of the current crisis in more ways than one.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Sunak or Williamson?

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1273184652937887746?s=20
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Sunak's best hope is for Johnson to fall on his sword whilst Sunak's stock remains high. That window of opportunity could be very small.

    Sadly for Sunak, I can't envisage any scandal big enough to topple Johnson.

    The Tory decsion to burn so much political capital and public goodwill now is a fascinating one given what is coming down the line. Hubris, stupidity or a bit of both? Probably the latter.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    RobD said:

    Anyone else been watching the Salisbury Poisonings? The New Zealand situation is reminiscent of the poor chap who found the scent bottle and gave it to his girl friend, who subsequently died. Interestingly, the bottle had been wrapped in hard plastic, as though the two who dumped it had some sort of residual care for their fellow humans.

    I'm not really seeing the connection. How are the two situations similar?
    Unexpected occurrence after it appeared everything was under control.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    If there wasnt a triple lock in place can someone explain the need for one to be created? If we wanted to maintain the gap and keep pensioners richer than workers that could be done by linking pensions just with earnings. Why is there a need to make pensioners even richer than workers?

    How is this good for society?
    The full state pension is £134.25 per week, seven grand a year, or equivalent to working 15.3 hours per week at minimum wage. Doesn’t sound like state pensioners are particularly rich.
    Not a pensioner so no expert. AgeUK says the full pension is £175.20. can anyone adjudicate?

    My source: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension or https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/what-youll-get
    Source for your number: https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get

    Rather annoyingly, the gov website is terribly bad at putting dates on websites, or noting pages that contain out of date information written in the present tense.


    Wiki says that BOTH numbers are correct, depending on the age of the recipient. Yours apply to men born after 1951 and women born after 1953, whereas mine apply to people older than those dates.

    Sounds like more simplification required!
    Your pension depends on how long you worked.

    My dad gets £190+ per week
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited June 2020

    RobD said:

    Anyone else been watching the Salisbury Poisonings? The New Zealand situation is reminiscent of the poor chap who found the scent bottle and gave it to his girl friend, who subsequently died. Interestingly, the bottle had been wrapped in hard plastic, as though the two who dumped it had some sort of residual care for their fellow humans.

    I'm not really seeing the connection. How are the two situations similar?
    Unexpected occurrence after it appeared everything was under control.
    Hmm, someone breaking quarantine seems a far more likely scenario than someone randomly finding a vial of discarded nerve agent.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555
    edited June 2020
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    If there wasnt a triple lock in place can someone explain the need for one to be created? If we wanted to maintain the gap and keep pensioners richer than workers that could be done by linking pensions just with earnings. Why is there a need to make pensioners even richer than workers?

    How is this good for society?
    The full state pension is £134.25 per week, seven grand a year, or equivalent to working 15.3 hours per week at minimum wage. Doesn’t sound like state pensioners are particularly rich.
    Not a pensioner so no expert. AgeUK says the full pension is £175.20. can anyone adjudicate?

    My source: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension or https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/what-youll-get
    Source for your number: https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get

    Rather annoyingly, the gov website is terribly bad at putting dates on websites, or noting pages that contain out of date information written in the present tense.


    Wiki says that BOTH numbers are correct, depending on the age of the recipient. Yours apply to men born after 1951 and women born after 1953, whereas mine apply to people older than those dates.

    Sounds like more simplification required!
    Thanks. All clarified. Agree about simplification, a comment which is generally a prelude to further complexification.

    Speaking of which if you delve a bit into how the benefits system works and what it will give in a particular case you are also met with a wall of complexity.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    If there wasnt a triple lock in place can someone explain the need for one to be created? If we wanted to maintain the gap and keep pensioners richer than workers that could be done by linking pensions just with earnings. Why is there a need to make pensioners even richer than workers?

    How is this good for society?
    The full state pension is £134.25 per week, seven grand a year, or equivalent to working 15.3 hours per week at minimum wage. Doesn’t sound like state pensioners are particularly rich.
    Not a pensioner so no expert. AgeUK says the full pension is £175.20. can anyone adjudicate?

    My source: https://www.gov.uk/state-pension or https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/what-youll-get
    Source for your number: https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get

    Rather annoyingly, the gov website is terribly bad at putting dates on websites, or noting pages that contain out of date information written in the present tense.


    Wiki says that BOTH numbers are correct, depending on the age of the recipient. Yours apply to men born after 1951 and women born after 1953, whereas mine apply to people older than those dates.

    Sounds like more simplification required!
    Thanks. All clarified. Agree about simplification, a comment which is generally a prelude to further complexification.

    Speaking of which if you delve a bit into how the benefits system works and what it will give in a particular case you are also met with a wall of complexity.
    The new system *is* simpler. It's just that until everyone older dies, we are running two systems.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    Every sympathy Ms Cyclefree. I suggest that too many at the top of Government have no idea of the difficulties in actually running a real business. As you say it's a great deal more than opening the door and letting in the punters.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I think I understand Berlusconi's longevity better now that we have a British analogue.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    I understand that, any business involved with fresh produce needs certainty. The reality is there is no certainty at the minute though.

    If you wish to remain closed until absolutely certain then one option would be to remain closed until 2-3 weeks after the formal announcement is made (likely at the very end of June) while keeping staff on Furlough. There is no compulsion to open on the opening from date.

    The date of July 4 has been given to plan from but with the caveat its not certain yet. Businesses need to plan accordingly based upon what works for them. Reality is there is no certainty yet and you can't argue with reality.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    Encouraging people driving around the country, especially if the journey is 350 miles or so, is bad during a pandemic, especially as some need a further journey the day before for their eye test.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Sunak or Williamson?

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1273184652937887746?s=20
    Who do you think......
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    It is very grim news for the hospitality industry. Just hope things work out somehow for your family.

    I can certainly see that quite a few of my local haunts wont reopen after all this. Maybe someone else will give them a go as venues in a year or two's time if the plague has been finally dealt with, but the existing owners/renters will have gone under.

    I just keep my fingers crossed that my local favourites will somehow make it through.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.
    I am not sure I agree, and if Carrie believes that I suspect she will one day be very disappointed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    It’s a nightmare for everyone, including those who want to make a decision once and be able to stick by it, not have to close things again later. Government and health authorities are going to be watching closely for any spike as a result of retail opening.

    There’s going to be a point where a decision is firmly made, and everyone moves quickly after that point. The point about notice is valid, but the decision date is going to be the same in both cases - would you daughter prefer to be told on 1st July that she can open on 4th July, or be told on 1st July that she can open on 1st August?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.
    Would anyone care who was not already clutching their pearls at Boris's cheating on Marina or any of the other wives and girlfriends? This is probably already why he polls worse with women but surely that is priced in.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anyone else been watching the Salisbury Poisonings? The New Zealand situation is reminiscent of the poor chap who found the scent bottle and gave it to his girl friend, who subsequently died. Interestingly, the bottle had been wrapped in hard plastic, as though the two who dumped it had some sort of residual care for their fellow humans.

    I'm not really seeing the connection. How are the two situations similar?
    Unexpected occurrence after it appeared everything was under control.
    Hmm, someone breaking quarantine seems a far more likely scenario than someone randomly finding a vial of discarded nerve agent.
    The weird thing is the discovery of the nerve agent more than two months after the city had been cleaned of it. Where was that perfume bottle for so long?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
    What does? The likelihood of cheating, or the likelihood of falling from favour.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    Sister-in-law regularly complains that she can't go to her Welsh holiday home. I reckon that trip's going to be a couple of months away at least.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    Encouraging people driving around the country, especially if the journey is 350 miles or so, is bad during a pandemic, especially as some need a further journey the day before for their eye test.
    I suppose you could catch it having a wee at the services but if you're going to go down that line of argument no need for non food stores to be open.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Scott_xP said:

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
    What, that he'd cheat on her, or that doing so would cause him problems?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Fast and effective track/trace/isolate is the single best way to control any pandemic, and we've known that for many, many decades.
    That we still don't have a fully functional system is simply unbelievable.

    https://twitter.com/profchrisham/status/1273141495260942337
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    It would need to be a two year suspension.
    How so?
    Because its a two-year effect that the anomaly runs for.

    In the first year there is a major drop in wages, triple lock ensures a 2.5% rise in pensions.
    In the second year there is a major increase in wages (but really a reversion), triple lock ensures a major increase in pensions.

    To deal with the anomaly the lock needs to be suspended for two years, to cover both the fall and return back to where it was.
    If, in general, you have a 2.5% floor to annual increases in the state pension then I see no reason why it wouldn't apply this year.

    It's only the artificial wage increase from furlough that needs addressing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited June 2020

    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    Sister-in-law regularly complains that she can't go to her Welsh holiday home. I reckon that trip's going to be a couple of months away at least.
    The worst part is the Gov't is seemingly going to go from opening up the very low risk stuff (Holiday homes, caravans) to the much higher risk chain hotels etc in about the space of a week or so.
    It's crackers from any sort of scientific viewpoint. Well I think it is anyway.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I remain unpersuaded by the wisdom of windfall taxes or taxing people on the basis of hitting groups/individuals for the crime of having a lot of income rather than trying to increase the revenue.

    Punitive taxation does not sit well with me.

    I think it's time for footballers to put their money where their mouths are. It's one thing to be charitable, now they are asking for additional taxpayer spending, well that money needs to come from somewhere.
    Just footballers? Or will you include Captains of Industry etc. in the equation?
    CEOs as well, I think £250k is a reasonable level which gets the actually very rich. My only worry is that it would be difficult to get rid of.
    If you want a 50% top rate of income tax then you should be voting Labour as it was a policy of Brown, Ed Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer.

    Osborne cut the top rate of income tax back to 45% after Darling raised it to 50%
    Thatcher had it at 60% for nine years.
    Thatcher inherited a top income tax rate of 83% in 1979, she left office with the top rate of income tax slashed to just 40% by 1990.

    No PM cut the top rate of income tax over their premiership more than Thatcher did
    Thatcher wanted to leave it at 50% I believe. Lawson convinced her to cut it to 40%.
    And receipts went up.

    It's almost as if tax isn't just the government collecting whatever they feel like - the taxed react.

    For example, the famous 98% supertax - it never actually raised any money.
    Do you have data to support the fact of the 1989 top rate tax cut from 60% to 40% raising more revenue? It's counter-intuitive. Things being equal, worked hour for worked hour, a 60% rate will raise far more revenue than a 40% one. The disincentives have to be truly massive to counter that extra per-hour worked revenue.

    I get that motivation for tax avoidance may be a bit higher at 60% than 40% but higher tax rates are a powerful incentive to increase your taxable income. When tax rates increase you need to work more hours to maintain your standard of living; when tax rates fall you can work less and still maintain it. I have seen some data to support this suggestion. It means that not only does tax increase because rates increase, but also because there is more taxable income to apply those higher rates to. Obviously there comes a point of diminishing returns
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    Encouraging people driving around the country, especially if the journey is 350 miles or so, is bad during a pandemic, especially as some need a further journey the day before for their eye test.
    I suppose you could catch it having a wee at the services but if you're going to go down that line of argument no need for non food stores to be open.
    Id probably reopen them but if you just wanted a single good reason, that is one. We are inevitably going to get local flare ups and spikes, so the fewer people travelling around the country, the less likely the local spike becomes a national spike.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    No - but my MP for one is on that one. Wrote about it in early May wrt annual charges being paid then the whole thing closing down. Lots of constituents £2-4k out of pocket. I have a neighbour in that position.

    Caravan parks (ie statics) seem more reopenable than caravan club grounds, as they all have their own facilities.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    It’s a nightmare for everyone, including those who want to make a decision once and be able to stick by it, not have to close things again later. Government and health authorities are going to be watching closely for any spike as a result of retail opening.

    There’s going to be a point where a decision is firmly made, and everyone moves quickly after that point. The point about notice is valid, but the decision date is going to be the same in both cases - would you daughter prefer to be told on 1st July that she can open on 4th July, or be told on 1st July that she can open on 1st August?
    Precisely.

    A decision will only be able to be made on around 1 July either way when the data comes in following the prior stage on lockdown unwind that only took effect the day before yesterday.

    Businesses have been given the date to plan for opening from 4 July but no guarantee. If they want a guarantee they can wait until 1 August but then a very valuable summer month of trade will be lost.

    It's easy to want a good, right decision. There are no good, right decisions here that avoid harm.

    Either have more uncertainty but potentially open for more of the summer or lose the uncertainty but lose the summer. I suspect losing the summer, losing July's trade, would be far more damaging. May and June have already been lost and that isn't coming back. Why guarantee losing July too?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.
    That’s almost inevitable.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Scott_xP said:

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
    What does? The likelihood of cheating, or the likelihood of falling from favour.

    Scott_xP said:

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
    What, that he'd cheat on her, or that doing so would cause him problems?
    Seems unlikely that cheating on her (which seems inevitable) would cause him problems.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Sunak's best hope is for Johnson to fall on his sword whilst Sunak's stock remains high. That window of opportunity could be very small.

    Sadly for Sunak, I can't envisage any scandal big enough to topple Johnson.

    The Tory decsion to burn so much political capital and public goodwill now is a fascinating one given what is coming down the line. Hubris, stupidity or a bit of both? Probably the latter.

    I am probably overwhelmed by PB Tory propaganda, as I have come to the conclusion, the country may be on its knees from government incompetence by the next GE,, but the Tories might still win.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.
    I am not sure I agree, and if Carrie believes that I suspect she will one day be very disappointed.
    Or judging by his ex wives, relieved.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    It would need to be a two year suspension.
    How so?
    Because its a two-year effect that the anomaly runs for.

    In the first year there is a major drop in wages, triple lock ensures a 2.5% rise in pensions.
    In the second year there is a major increase in wages (but really a reversion), triple lock ensures a major increase in pensions.

    To deal with the anomaly the lock needs to be suspended for two years, to cover both the fall and return back to where it was.
    If, in general, you have a 2.5% floor to annual increases in the state pension then I see no reason why it wouldn't apply this year.

    It's only the artificial wage increase from furlough that needs addressing.
    I think the 2.5% floor is inexcusable when there's a 20% cut going on.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    I think you need to look up the definition of communism.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
    What does? The likelihood of cheating, or the likelihood of falling from favour.

    Scott_xP said:

    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.

    Seems unlikely
    What, that he'd cheat on her, or that doing so would cause him problems?
    Seems unlikely that cheating on her (which seems inevitable) would cause him problems.
    Agreed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Johnson, as you'd expect, was entirely clueless about the Rashford thing and had not bothered to read his briefs. But that's the predictable bit. The interesting thing is that Sunak made the call not to fund the extension into the summer, despite the very low cost of doing so. Politically it was a very poor call and it was disastrous symbolically. But it is only a foretaste of the kinds of decsion that he is going to have to be making later on this year and next. Having done the easy bit, the Chancellor is soon going to have to start making some very tough calls that will affect a lot of people who voted Tory last December. It may be worth holding off buying shares in his political future until we see how that plays out.

    Sunak's best hope is for Johnson to fall on his sword whilst Sunak's stock remains high. That window of opportunity could be very small.

    Sadly for Sunak, I can't envisage any scandal big enough to topple Johnson.
    It is hard to think of a scandal that would remove Boris and leave the chap next door in place. More likely is Boris steps down for health reasons if he is still the worse for wear after the summer recess and Christmas/New Year breaks, and that is long enough for the gilt to come off the Chancellor's gingerbread.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    It’s a nightmare for everyone, including those who want to make a decision once and be able to stick by it, not have to close things again later. Government and health authorities are going to be watching closely for any spike as a result of retail opening.

    There’s going to be a point where a decision is firmly made, and everyone moves quickly after that point. The point about notice is valid, but the decision date is going to be the same in both cases - would you daughter prefer to be told on 1st July that she can open on 4th July, or be told on 1st July that she can open on 1st August?
    Precisely.

    A decision will only be able to be made on around 1 July either way when the data comes in following the prior stage on lockdown unwind that only took effect the day before yesterday.

    Businesses have been given the date to plan for opening from 4 July but no guarantee. If they want a guarantee they can wait until 1 August but then a very valuable summer month of trade will be lost.

    It's easy to want a good, right decision. There are no good, right decisions here that avoid harm.

    Either have more uncertainty but potentially open for more of the summer or lose the uncertainty but lose the summer. I suspect losing the summer, losing July's trade, would be far more damaging. May and June have already been lost and that isn't coming back. Why guarantee losing July too?
    July 4th is the earliest date. Nothing stopping anyone opening July 11th if they need some guaranteed notice and preparation time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    It’s a nightmare for everyone, including those who want to make a decision once and be able to stick by it, not have to close things again later. Government and health authorities are going to be watching closely for any spike as a result of retail opening.

    There’s going to be a point where a decision is firmly made, and everyone moves quickly after that point. The point about notice is valid, but the decision date is going to be the same in both cases - would you daughter prefer to be told on 1st July that she can open on 4th July, or be told on 1st July that she can open on 1st August?
    Not either or. If the announcement only comes on 1st July there can be no opening on 4th July.

    Tim Farron gets it - https://timfarron.co.uk/en/article/2020/1364948/mp-urges-government-to-publish-guidance-for-hospitality-industry-to-stop-lakes-businesses-from-being-kept-in-the-dark.

    And here - https://www.facebook.com/timfarronmp/videos/731934324295382/

    Trudi Harrison in the next door constituency - mine now - has said nothing. A total waste of space. She won’t be getting the Cyclefree family’s votes in future.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Mr. Pete, I can't see him ever resigning, but the PCP are surprisingly happy to rebel against the Government line so an internal challenge is certainly possible.

    The Conservative Party are notoriously ruthless when it comes to failing leaders, but that is still early days for Johnson. MPs are still gratified by his performance at the GE.

    Johnson transcends scandal. The personal life car crashes, the zip wire and complicity in a punishment beating conspiracy would each do for anyone else. Boris could be exposed as Jack the Ripper's getaway driver and his career would be safe.
    I suspect cheating on Carrie might present him with serious problems, though.
    Why? He is going to do it. 100%. If he already hasn't. Just think about the ones we know about: shagging Wheeler while he married to the first one. Shagging Wyatt (2 unpaid for abortions LOL), the one from the Guardian, the art woman he stuck a sprog on, Arcuri and finally Ofboris all while he was married to Wheeler. A cocksman of that calibre isn't going to suddenly holster it overnight.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited June 2020

    Pulpstar said:

    On the subject of openings, can anyone - given that non essential retail is now allowed open give me a solitary good reason why caravan parks aren't allowed to reopen now.
    And no I don't have a caravan.

    Encouraging people driving around the country, especially if the journey is 350 miles or so, is bad during a pandemic, especially as some need a further journey the day before for their eye test.
    We are already able to drive anywhere for exercise :-).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Or he just made a mistake. Simplest answer and all that. The given have been forced to change position, who cares about getting a name wrong?
    Harry (back of the net) Ball - Potter
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Suspect a suspension for one year due to this technical anomaly wont be too damaging politically.

    As long as it is clear it is restored the following year.

    It would need to be a two year suspension.
    How so?
    Because its a two-year effect that the anomaly runs for.

    In the first year there is a major drop in wages, triple lock ensures a 2.5% rise in pensions.
    In the second year there is a major increase in wages (but really a reversion), triple lock ensures a major increase in pensions.

    To deal with the anomaly the lock needs to be suspended for two years, to cover both the fall and return back to where it was.
    If, in general, you have a 2.5% floor to annual increases in the state pension then I see no reason why it wouldn't apply this year.

    It's only the artificial wage increase from furlough that needs addressing.
    Can we have a 2.5% floor to public sector pay rises? No, its done off what we can afford and what is fair. The same should apply to the pension.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    RobD said:

    I think you need to look up the definition of communism.
    Probably a tongue in cheek reference to Conservative pearl-clutching over Labour's free internet policy. Ironically, the Tories were also promising state-provided broadband infrastructure, but free to ISPs not their customers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So - any news on pubs/restaurants opening?

    No.

    This is beyond pathetic. People are trying to plan. They have nothing to plan with. Breweries don’t know whether to start brewing. The grants are running out. Landlords are demanding rent. Furlough is running out. Costs are continuing. Losses continue to be made.

    If July 4 is the date bloody tell us. If it isn’t also bloody tell us.

    Long chat with Daughter last night and she is in despair. Her last throw of the dice is a GoFundMe appeal to see if that will help. If it doesn’t then she will be closing the doors for the last time, to add to the steady drip drip announcements round here of redundancies. There are families round here where both breadwinners are facing unemployment. Even Sellafield is cutting jobs.

    Meanwhile the government’s big announcement is about DiFiD. FFS!

    To be fair this is following the same timetabling system as previous lockdown lifts. The date has been announced as July 4 but subject to confirmation closer to the date depending upon the data closer to the date.

    Final confirmation likely won't come in until days before - the equivalent date for shops was announced weeks ago but the final confirmation for shops being able to open on the announced date only came a few days before the opening.

    Plan for July 4 is the statement as it stands.
    Pubs and the like cannot open on the basis of knowing a few days before. It takes 2 -3 weeks to get ready, to get stock in, etc. It’s not just a question of turning up and switching on the lights. And getting ready costs money, money which most don’t have. And if the date is delayed, then some of that money is wasted and cannot be recovered.

    FFS! I wish all those opining on this actually took the trouble to find out what it is like having to run a business like this, what is actually needed. There is little or no guidance available specific to this sector. Every decision costs money. The uncertainty is killing businesses which might otherwise have a chance.

    These places and all those that depend on them are on a knife edge. Quite a few are not even going to make it to July. The government does not have a clue about what is involved, is not bothering to listen to those who do and is just pratting about.

    All the news locally here is about redundancies. “Levelling up”? What a fucking joke.
    It’s a nightmare for everyone, including those who want to make a decision once and be able to stick by it, not have to close things again later. Government and health authorities are going to be watching closely for any spike as a result of retail opening.

    There’s going to be a point where a decision is firmly made, and everyone moves quickly after that point. The point about notice is valid, but the decision date is going to be the same in both cases - would you daughter prefer to be told on 1st July that she can open on 4th July, or be told on 1st July that she can open on 1st August?
    Not either or. If the announcement only comes on 1st July there can be no opening on 4th July.

    Tim Farron gets it - https://timfarron.co.uk/en/article/2020/1364948/mp-urges-government-to-publish-guidance-for-hospitality-industry-to-stop-lakes-businesses-from-being-kept-in-the-dark.

    And here - https://www.facebook.com/timfarronmp/videos/731934324295382/

    Trudi Harrison in the next door constituency - mine now - has said nothing. A total waste of space. She won’t be getting the Cyclefree family’s votes in future.
    But why do things have to open exactly on July 4th? I don't think the government are going to sit on a decision like this. Once it has been made people will be told.
This discussion has been closed.