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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Behind all the terrible COVID-19 statistics a story of two wom

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Behind all the terrible COVID-19 statistics a story of two women that really touched me

The above was painted by my daughter-in-law, Lucille Smithson, who is a professional portrait painter based in Los Angeles and is producing a number of works relating to the coronavirus pandemic. This is what she wrote about this painting:

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited April 2020
    What heroes we have working in the NHS.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    I second that!
  • Top work by Mrs Smithson Jnr.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Thirded
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Easy to forget that the numbers aren't just statistics.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    FPT:
    MaxPB said:

    Barnesian said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:
    The video is fine. Intercourse is a perfectly reasonable word here.
    No, he becomes unintelligible after saying it. He realises it's not the right word. Trump is going to smash him in the debates.
    By Trump's impeccable oratory? Biden is a decent bloke. It shines through. Trump isn't. The debates will show this clearly. How will independents react?
    Biden is mentally deficient. That's what people will realise at the debates. The media have done a very good job in the US at ignoring it but as soon as he's on live for longer than a quick soundbite it's going to be very obvious for everyone.
    Because of course Trump never makes any verbal slip-ups.
  • Shocking news coming from ooop North.

    Thieves have made off with all the motorway signs in Yorkshire.

    Police are currently looking for Leeds.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Shocking news coming from ooop North.

    Thieves have made off with all the motorway signs in Yorkshire.

    Police are currently looking for Leeds.

    Your coat, sir.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    @MaxPB

    I've always thought Biden was suffering from the earliest stages of dementia, but he performed surprisingly OK during the head-to-head debates with Sanders.

    And, of course, the story out of any debate is more likely to be something Trump said that anything Biden says.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.
  • RobD said:

    Shocking news coming from ooop North.

    Thieves have made off with all the motorway signs in Yorkshire.

    Police are currently looking for Leeds.

    Your coat, sir.
    How do you find Will Smith in the snow?

    Look for the fresh prints.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Shocking news coming from ooop North.

    Thieves have made off with all the motorway signs in Yorkshire.

    Police are currently looking for Leeds.

    :lol:
  • What a beautiful portrait and story
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    FPT - I'm not sure if this was commented on in the previous thread but if public opinion is now only 57/36% in favour of a firm lockdown as opposed to 90%+ in favour a month ago then it's changing fast.

    A 10% swing is all that it'd take to tip the scales now and that point should be reached in the next couple of weeks.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    FPT:

    stodge said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Can we go back to discussing Covid deaths rather than the depressing subject of tax rises ?

    The UK Government is going to borrow £300 billion this financial year. The response to this from the normally fiscally prudent Conservative Party is "keep borrowing".

    At what point does anyone think restoring some kind of order to the public finances a good idea and how is it to be done? Spending cuts, a garage sale or are we going to have to contemplate tax rises?

    For the better part of 40 years, no politician has been able to even whisper the possibility of raising taxes without a heap of vitriol (or worse) thrown down from the generally pro-Tory media. Oddly enough, given his electoral strength and a solid Parliamentary majority, Boris Johnson could probably push through higher taxes and get away with it.
    Has tax actually come down that much in the last 40 years?

    I'm not convinced. We've shifted the type of taxation from direct to indirect a bit but whacked up property and local taxes.

    We are not lightly taxed.

    You may be able to raise them a little bit more without choking off growth, but not much more.
    Why would more taxes necessarily choke growth? Provided they are targeted at wealth they need not impact growth. Spending cuts are more likely to choke growth.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    FPT:

    MaxPB said:

    Barnesian said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:
    The video is fine. Intercourse is a perfectly reasonable word here.
    No, he becomes unintelligible after saying it. He realises it's not the right word. Trump is going to smash him in the debates.
    By Trump's impeccable oratory? Biden is a decent bloke. It shines through. Trump isn't. The debates will show this clearly. How will independents react?
    Biden is mentally deficient. That's what people will realise at the debates. The media have done a very good job in the US at ignoring it but as soon as he's on live for longer than a quick soundbite it's going to be very obvious for everyone.
    Because of course Trump never makes any verbal slip-ups.
    I assume that Biden chunters his nonsense in a way suggesting an aged loose grasp (no telly here in Tom's Manor). That will not go down well.

    Trump, on the other hand, speaks his utter nonsense with conviction, which convinces some folks. Indeed, the old saw that it's not what you say but how you say it applies especially to Trump who once said, I believe, that he could stand on New York’s Fifth Avenue “and shoot somebody” and still not lose voters. And he did get away with it.

    Let's see if he can get away with advising bleach ingestion.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Illegal as it is in effect still an eviction
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    It’s a turn of phrase
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    I am not commenting in this case but if a person were to die as a result of being illegally evicted from their home wouldn't there be a case to answer for manslaughter?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    FPT - I'm not sure if this was commented on in the previous thread but if public opinion is now only 57/36% in favour of a firm lockdown as opposed to 90%+ in favour a month ago then it's changing fast.

    A 10% swing is all that it'd take to tip the scales now and that point should be reached in the next couple of weeks.

    70% in today's polling IIRC.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    FPT - I'm not sure if this was commented on in the previous thread but if public opinion is now only 57/36% in favour of a firm lockdown as opposed to 90%+ in favour a month ago then it's changing fast.

    A 10% swing is all that it'd take to tip the scales now and that point should be reached in the next couple of weeks.

    I hadn’t seen that polling, but that is a very good point. My observation from clients today is that many professional people are absolutely sick of it now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020
    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not Theresa May or George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist. None of these stories come from Boris aides.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    Charles said:

    It’s a turn of phrase
    He'll probably make up for it next time by wearing a mask and saying "read my lips".
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited April 2020

    FPT - I'm not sure if this was commented on in the previous thread but if public opinion is now only 57/36% in favour of a firm lockdown as opposed to 90%+ in favour a month ago then it's changing fast.

    A 10% swing is all that it'd take to tip the scales now and that point should be reached in the next couple of weeks.

    I hadn’t seen that polling, but that is a very good point. My observation from clients today is that many professional people are absolutely sick of it now.
    So what? I'm sick of it but that doesn't mean I don't recognise the need for it to continue.

    Also, say lockdown was ended tomorrow - would everyone go back to normal pre-covid activity levels? I don't think so.
  • HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Thanks for the thread header Mike. What a sad story.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    FPT - I'm not sure if this was commented on in the previous thread but if public opinion is now only 57/36% in favour of a firm lockdown as opposed to 90%+ in favour a month ago then it's changing fast.

    A 10% swing is all that it'd take to tip the scales now and that point should be reached in the next couple of weeks.

    I was about to make a very similar point but far less succinctly. Thank you
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    The answer to her question is “no” - he was a lodger so not covered by the legislation
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    I actually hope so, but I'm not sure. I think support for there being any cost to what is happening right now will rapidly disappear once people are actually asked to do so. There will always be someone else who should be paying, even now, and even when having good poll leads the government has acted awfully frightfully at the merest hint of upsetting any in its base. And people won't want baubles taken away. Not once the worst period is past us, even as it will roll on in a big way for some time.

    I think HYUFD is right about how they will react.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
    Taxes will not rise as the Tory manifesto Tory MPs were elected on made clear, Boris knows that and with a Tory majority of 80 Tory MPs elected on that manifesto will vote down any tax rises anyway
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    FPT - I'm not sure if this was commented on in the previous thread but if public opinion is now only 57/36% in favour of a firm lockdown as opposed to 90%+ in favour a month ago then it's changing fast.

    A 10% swing is all that it'd take to tip the scales now and that point should be reached in the next couple of weeks.

    I hadn’t seen that polling, but that is a very good point. My observation from clients today is that many professional people are absolutely sick of it now.
    So what? I'm sick of it but that doesn't mean I don't recognise the need for it to continue.

    Also, say lockdown was ended tomorrow - would everyone go back to normal pre-covid activity levels? I don't think so.
    Absolutely but I think that others may not be as sensible as you and have less patience. Rightly or wrongly, in the aggregate, such attitudes and behaviour have to be factored in.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    I've uploaded all of the England by death date data into GCP, figuring out the best way to come up with a model. I've also written a script that will download the data at 2pm every day, parse the excel sheets into a csv and then extract the correct data for addition to the table (thank god for jupyter notebooks). Fingers crossed it will work properly.

    It has made the basic analysis a piece of piss though as I can now use the date_diff function and there's no manual copying and pasting involved. Unfortunately I've lost access to the company Looker account but I can use Datastudio so will look at some simple visualisations.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
    Taxes will not rise as the Tory manifesto Tory MPs were elected on made clear, Boris knows that and with a Tory majority of 80 Tory MPs elected on that manifesto will vote down any tax rises anyway
    HYUFD - the situation has changed. Taxes will need to rise and significantly to recover the nation's finance. Hopefully the focus will be on unearned wealth so increases to IHT, more tax on investment properties etc. But generally we all will have to pay more.

    Plus - if the government is brave enough - a freeze on welfare, hopefully Boris' 80 seat majority will help with this!


  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    MaxPB said:

    I've uploaded all of the England by death date data into GCP, figuring out the best way to come up with a model. I've also written a script that will download the data at 2pm every day, parse the excel sheets into a csv and then extract the correct data for addition to the table (thank god for jupyter notebooks). Fingers crossed it will work properly.

    It has made the basic analysis a piece of piss though as I can now use the date_diff function and there's no manual copying and pasting involved. Unfortunately I've lost access to the company Looker account but I can use Datastudio so will look at some simple visualisations.

    Have you tried doing a bit of ML with it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    "Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely"

    I think it was Bill Clinton who said something about coming back as the bond markets.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited April 2020
    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
    Taxes will not rise as the Tory manifesto Tory MPs were elected on made clear, Boris knows that and with a Tory majority of 80 Tory MPs elected on that manifesto will vote down any tax rises anyway
    The only hard commitment in the manifesto was not to "raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance". Coronavirus is a genuine black swan event that could allow even that commitment to be ignored but in any event, the manifesto committed to limit "arbitrary tax advantages for the wealthiest in society" so there's a route for tax rises on the wealthy.

    Tory MPs might not like it but neither will they like to see unfettered borrowing nor cuts in public services.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    Never enough...

    The families of bus drivers , shop workers, prison officers and other frontline staff who have died from coronavirus should be entitled to the £60,000 life assurance alongside those of healthcare workers, according to employees and unions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/calls-include-bus-drivers-60k-payouts-coronavirus-deaths

    Before we know it will be anybody who died. And £60k won't be enough, it will be £100k.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Ave_it said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
    Taxes will not rise as the Tory manifesto Tory MPs were elected on made clear, Boris knows that and with a Tory majority of 80 Tory MPs elected on that manifesto will vote down any tax rises anyway
    HYUFD - the situation has changed. Taxes will need to rise and significantly to recover the nation's finance. Hopefully the focus will be on unearned wealth so increases to IHT, more tax on investment properties etc. But generally we all will have to pay more.

    Plus - if the government is brave enough - a freeze on welfare, hopefully Boris' 80 seat majority will help with this!


    The situation has not changed. Taxes will not rise and certainly not deeply unpopular taxes like IHT.

    For the umpteenth time Boris is a populist not a deficit hawk like Osborne or May
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    Agreed. NI for self-employed, NI for pensioners are both options.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Longer lockdown for over-70s 'could create sense of victimisation'

    Caroline Abrahams, charity director at Age UK, said age alone should not determine people’s ability to go about their daily lives if the government decides to begin easing some of the restrictions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/28/longer-lockdown-for-over-70s-could-create-sense-of-victimisation

    Erhhh yes it should....I don't care how fit you think you are as an oldie, you are in much more likely to be big trouble if you get this and over 70.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    Losing the savings interest rates and dividend allowance, increasing dividend tax to 20%, and making the banks and companies pay it direct, would also simplify tax returns for many people and reduce HMRC workload, as well as being fairer. I've never known HMRC get my income tax right since the new rules were brought in.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    There speaks the sensible wing of the Tory party.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    Freezing welfare when the unemployment rate is likely to rise is a terrible idea.
  • Never enough...

    The families of bus drivers , shop workers, prison officers and other frontline staff who have died from coronavirus should be entitled to the £60,000 life assurance alongside those of healthcare workers, according to employees and unions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/calls-include-bus-drivers-60k-payouts-coronavirus-deaths

    Before we know it will be anybody who died. And £60k won't be enough, it will be £100k.

    To be fair it is difficult to argue against the £60,000 award
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Longer lockdown for over-70s 'could create sense of victimisation'

    Caroline Abrahams, charity director at Age UK, said age alone should not determine people’s ability to go about their daily lives if the government decides to begin easing some of the restrictions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/28/longer-lockdown-for-over-70s-could-create-sense-of-victimisation

    Erhhh yes it should....I don't care how fit you think you are as an oldie, you are in much more likely to be big trouble if you get this and over 70.


    Yebbut - I fear for the mental health of those in that category. Some over 80s will just give up. Lockdown is hardly ideal for keeping dementure at bay either.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Good not to be wearing a mask tomorrow! Glad that Hancock put Sturgeon in her place! Can't Boris ensure that these regional 'initiatives' are stopped and that we only have one programme in place set at national ie UK level?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    Never enough...

    The families of bus drivers , shop workers, prison officers and other frontline staff who have died from coronavirus should be entitled to the £60,000 life assurance alongside those of healthcare workers, according to employees and unions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/calls-include-bus-drivers-60k-payouts-coronavirus-deaths

    Before we know it will be anybody who died. And £60k won't be enough, it will be £100k.

    To be fair it is difficult to argue against the £60,000 award
    My point was as soon as it was announced I predicted we would get complaints of not enough.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    The Tory manifesto contained a commitment to keep the triple lock, Tory members also strongly support the marriage allowance.

    We have a Tory majority and it will pursue Tory policies
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    I've uploaded all of the England by death date data into GCP, figuring out the best way to come up with a model. I've also written a script that will download the data at 2pm every day, parse the excel sheets into a csv and then extract the correct data for addition to the table (thank god for jupyter notebooks). Fingers crossed it will work properly.

    It has made the basic analysis a piece of piss though as I can now use the date_diff function and there's no manual copying and pasting involved. Unfortunately I've lost access to the company Looker account but I can use Datastudio so will look at some simple visualisations.

    Have you tried doing a bit of ML with it?
    Yes, but there isn't really enough publicly accessible data to get anywhere useful.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited April 2020
    How many people know this?

    Pensioner has gross income:

    Pension £12,500
    Dividends £7,000
    Bank interest £1,000

    Total £20,500

    Tax Bill = NIL!

    Personal allowance £12,500. Dividend allowance £2,000. Interest allowance £1,000. And finally the clever one that nobody knows about: Starter rate 0% on first £5,000 of (remaining) savings income.

    Plus of course they could have large amounts of ISA income and gains all also tax free!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    There speaks the sensible wing of the Tory party.
    BigG voted Labour in 1997 and 2001, he is a floating voter not the Tory base
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I've uploaded all of the England by death date data into GCP, figuring out the best way to come up with a model. I've also written a script that will download the data at 2pm every day, parse the excel sheets into a csv and then extract the correct data for addition to the table (thank god for jupyter notebooks). Fingers crossed it will work properly.

    It has made the basic analysis a piece of piss though as I can now use the date_diff function and there's no manual copying and pasting involved. Unfortunately I've lost access to the company Looker account but I can use Datastudio so will look at some simple visualisations.

    Have you tried doing a bit of ML with it?
    Yes, but there isn't really enough publicly accessible data to get anywhere useful.
    Tried fitting a Gaussian Process? :-)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    Freezing welfare when the unemployment rate is likely to rise is a terrible idea.
    ... as recognised by HMG who raised UC by £20 per week in the light of the Coronacrisis.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    There speaks the sensible wing of the Tory party.
    BigG voted Labour in 1997 and 2001, he is a floating voter not the Tory base
    A party member I thought?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    Wrong, IHT is deeply unpopular.

    Closing tax evasion loopholes is all the Tory manifesto promised not raising tax. That is what Labour governments do
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Royal Mail has scrapped Saturday letter deliveries across the UK until further notice due to the coronavirus pandemic.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    Freezing welfare when the unemployment rate is likely to rise is a terrible idea.
    There are too many people on welfare who shouldn't be on it and it is a huge burden to the economy! All I am saying is keep it at current level ie no CPI increases for five years. I would like to go further but let's just do that, that will help reduce a bit of the debt.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
    Taxes will not rise as the Tory manifesto Tory MPs were elected on made clear, Boris knows that and with a Tory majority of 80 Tory MPs elected on that manifesto will vote down any tax rises anyway
    The only hard commitment in the manifesto was not to "raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance". Coronavirus is a genuine black swan event that could allow even that commitment to be ignored but in any event, the manifesto committed to limit "arbitrary tax advantages for the wealthiest in society" so there's a route for tax rises on the wealthy.

    Tory MPs might not like it but neither will they like to see unfettered borrowing nor cuts in public services.
    Tory MPs care about keeping their seats, they would prefer borrowing to raising taxes or cutting spending on the NHS and losing their seats
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    Wrong, IHT is deeply unpopular.

    Closing tax evasion loopholes is all the Tory manifesto promised not raising tax. That is what Labour governments do
    We shall see.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    Freezing welfare when the unemployment rate is likely to rise is a terrible idea.
    There are too many people on welfare who shouldn't be on it and it is a huge burden to the economy! All I am saying is keep it at current level ie no CPI increases for five years. I would like to go further but let's just do that, that will help reduce a bit of the debt.

    Your evidence for that assertion is...?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    The Tory manifesto contained a commitment to keep the triple lock, Tory members also strongly support the marriage allowance.

    We have a Tory majority and it will pursue Tory policies
    " I would freeze all welfare"

    They've been frozen for years. Now you to freeze them some more?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I've uploaded all of the England by death date data into GCP, figuring out the best way to come up with a model. I've also written a script that will download the data at 2pm every day, parse the excel sheets into a csv and then extract the correct data for addition to the table (thank god for jupyter notebooks). Fingers crossed it will work properly.

    It has made the basic analysis a piece of piss though as I can now use the date_diff function and there's no manual copying and pasting involved. Unfortunately I've lost access to the company Looker account but I can use Datastudio so will look at some simple visualisations.

    Have you tried doing a bit of ML with it?
    Yes, but there isn't really enough publicly accessible data to get anywhere useful.
    Tried fitting a Gaussian Process? :-)
    I've never done one in Tensorflow, so I'll have to look into it. My linear regression wasn't brilliant, because the data is too variable to come up with an accurate projection. It also hasn't helped that reporting has simultaneously more front loaded and there are odd days of adding a bunch of historical data, it really throws everything off course.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Longer lockdown for over-70s 'could create sense of victimisation'

    Caroline Abrahams, charity director at Age UK, said age alone should not determine people’s ability to go about their daily lives if the government decides to begin easing some of the restrictions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/28/longer-lockdown-for-over-70s-could-create-sense-of-victimisation

    Erhhh yes it should....I don't care how fit you think you are as an oldie, you are in much more likely to be big trouble if you get this and over 70.


    Yebbut - I fear for the mental health of those in that category. Some over 80s will just give up. Lockdown is hardly ideal for keeping dementure at bay either.
    Before the lockdown the advice given to over 70s, those with certain health conditions and those at highest risk ie those getting the letters from NHS was 'advisory' and it still is albeit within the overall framework of the lockdown.

    I expect it to stay 'advisory'; it is unreasonable to mandate these individuals must stay in, that would not be supported or enforceable. And would guarantee LAB a big GE win in 2024!

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    There speaks the sensible wing of the Tory party.
    BigG voted Labour in 1997 and 2001, he is a floating voter not the Tory base
    I am not a floating voter and those on here will just ridicule you for suggesting it

    But we are very different conservatives, you a Trump leaning right winger, and me a compassionate liberal conservative

    Indeed over time Boris is likely to leave the right in his wake as he creates a fair society with good public services and sensible tax increases to address the levels of unfairness we see
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    The Tory manifesto contained a commitment to keep the triple lock, Tory members also strongly support the marriage allowance.

    We have a Tory majority and it will pursue Tory policies
    " I would freeze all welfare"

    They've been frozen for years. Now you to freeze them some more?
    Welfare includes the state pension! Freeze that for five years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Longer lockdown for over-70s 'could create sense of victimisation'

    Caroline Abrahams, charity director at Age UK, said age alone should not determine people’s ability to go about their daily lives if the government decides to begin easing some of the restrictions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/28/longer-lockdown-for-over-70s-could-create-sense-of-victimisation

    Erhhh yes it should....I don't care how fit you think you are as an oldie, you are in much more likely to be big trouble if you get this and over 70.

    It seems like they are saying it is not ok to treat age groups differently, even though the risks are demonstrably higher for certain groups, as though a principle of non-discrimination is being unacceptably breached.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I've uploaded all of the England by death date data into GCP, figuring out the best way to come up with a model. I've also written a script that will download the data at 2pm every day, parse the excel sheets into a csv and then extract the correct data for addition to the table (thank god for jupyter notebooks). Fingers crossed it will work properly.

    It has made the basic analysis a piece of piss though as I can now use the date_diff function and there's no manual copying and pasting involved. Unfortunately I've lost access to the company Looker account but I can use Datastudio so will look at some simple visualisations.

    Have you tried doing a bit of ML with it?
    Yes, but there isn't really enough publicly accessible data to get anywhere useful.
    Tried fitting a Gaussian Process? :-)
    I've never done one in Tensorflow, so I'll have to look into it. My linear regression wasn't brilliant, because the data is too variable to come up with an accurate projection. It also hasn't helped that reporting has simultaneously more front loaded and there are odd days of adding a bunch of historical data, it really throws everything off course.
    FYI...

    https://github.com/GPflow/GPflow
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited April 2020
    Yes, freezing welfare is a possibility in places - child benefit has been frozen for 9 of the last 10 years with very little public protest.

    There is another big saving which Govt will automatically make - no tax credits for any 3rd and subsequent children born after 5/4/17.

    Every year this saving rises big time as children reaching 18 drop out of the system and no new children come in. Already 3/18 of such children are excluded - in 5 years time that is 8/18.

    Of course other big thing is raising pension age.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    I think you may find this has changed and taxes will rise but so will spending on the NHS
    Taxes will not rise as the Tory manifesto Tory MPs were elected on made clear, Boris knows that and with a Tory majority of 80 Tory MPs elected on that manifesto will vote down any tax rises anyway
    HYUFD - the situation has changed. Taxes will need to rise and significantly to recover the nation's finance. Hopefully the focus will be on unearned wealth so increases to IHT, more tax on investment properties etc. But generally we all will have to pay more.

    Plus - if the government is brave enough - a freeze on welfare, hopefully Boris' 80 seat majority will help with this!


    The situation has not changed. Taxes will not rise and certainly not deeply unpopular taxes like IHT.

    Your first sentence bears no relation to the second. The situation the country finds itself in certainly has changed, it is not the economy that the party expected. That would justify changing position if they wanted. However, the point that the economic response will not change in the sense of significant tax rises even though the situation has changed is a separate point, and I think is likely to be right.

    What causes the least amount of political pain in the short term?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Difficult to believe there will be no choice, even for Johnson/Hancock, to a massive change in social care provision after all this is over.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    MikeL said:

    How many people know this?

    Pensioner has gross income:

    Pension £12,500
    Dividends £7,000
    Bank interest £1,000

    Total £20,500

    Tax Bill = NIL!

    Personal allowance £12,500. Dividend allowance £2,000. Interest allowance £1,000. And finally the clever one that nobody knows about: Starter rate 0% on first £5,000 of (remaining) savings income.

    Plus of course they could have large amounts of ISA income and gains all also tax free!

    Tax on dividends at 20% over 2k? and 40 % fir higher rate taxpayers?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    Wrong, IHT is deeply unpopular.

    Closing tax evasion loopholes is all the Tory manifesto promised not raising tax. That is what Labour governments do
    Where did I mention IHT
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    Longer lockdown for over-70s 'could create sense of victimisation'

    Caroline Abrahams, charity director at Age UK, said age alone should not determine people’s ability to go about their daily lives if the government decides to begin easing some of the restrictions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/28/longer-lockdown-for-over-70s-could-create-sense-of-victimisation

    Erhhh yes it should....I don't care how fit you think you are as an oldie, you are in much more likely to be big trouble if you get this and over 70.

    It seems like they are saying it is not ok to treat age groups differently, even though the risks are demonstrably higher for certain groups, as though a principle of non-discrimination is being unacceptably breached.
    That's fine. We just point out that the risk of death is greater but there is nothing stopping you and you are welcome to go out and about if you prefer to risk an early grave.

    It's probably worth emphasising that if pressure on hospital admissions increased then they would be lower priority for admission but that is probably too complex for those who ignore common sense.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    Freezing welfare when the unemployment rate is likely to rise is a terrible idea.
    There are too many people on welfare who shouldn't be on it and it is a huge burden to the economy! All I am saying is keep it at current level ie no CPI increases for five years. I would like to go further but let's just do that, that will help reduce a bit of the debt.

    Your evidence for that assertion is...?
    Put it bluntly the country is full of spongers! I personally know someone who has claimed benefits for 20+ years due to 'health problems' and there is nothing wrong with her!
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    The Tory manifesto contained a commitment to keep the triple lock, Tory members also strongly support the marriage allowance.

    We have a Tory majority and it will pursue Tory policies
    " I would freeze all welfare"

    They've been frozen for years. Now you to freeze them some more?
    Welfare includes the state pension! Freeze that for five years.
    Yes I think I said that earlier
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    MikeL said:

    Surely the answer is that Boris will put up taxes to some degree but it'll be ones that don't generate headlines and are less likely to be noticed.

    So that means tax rates do not go up (for any tax). Instead what you do is:

    - Freeze allowances
    - Reduce reliefs

    I would have thought a pretty significant cut to relief for pension contributions is the most obvious big revenue earner - maybe restrict to basic rate.

    Also cut CGT allowance from £12,000 to say £1,500, reduce ISA limit from £20,000 to say £10,000.

    Next maybe scrap 0% rate on first £5,000 of savings income, scrap £2,000 dividend allowance.

    The list goes on - lots of things you can do that most people don't have faintest idea about.

    All good ideas - also get rid of the marriage allowance (why do we have this, its not the 1950s), scrap the Triple Lock. I would freeze all welfare and state pension for five years.

    And make self employed pay their fair rate of NI.


    Freezing welfare when the unemployment rate is likely to rise is a terrible idea.
    There are too many people on welfare who shouldn't be on it and it is a huge burden to the economy! All I am saying is keep it at current level ie no CPI increases for five years. I would like to go further but let's just do that, that will help reduce a bit of the debt.

    Your evidence for that assertion is...?
    Put it bluntly the country is full of spongers! I personally know someone who has claimed benefits for 20+ years due to 'health problems' and there is nothing wrong with her!
    Really? Assuming you aren't a Russian troll bot, how the hell have they managed to get through the regular (as in every few months in some cases) reviews of their health condition by third parties such as ATOS?

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    kle4 said:

    Longer lockdown for over-70s 'could create sense of victimisation'

    Caroline Abrahams, charity director at Age UK, said age alone should not determine people’s ability to go about their daily lives if the government decides to begin easing some of the restrictions.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/28/longer-lockdown-for-over-70s-could-create-sense-of-victimisation

    Erhhh yes it should....I don't care how fit you think you are as an oldie, you are in much more likely to be big trouble if you get this and over 70.

    It seems like they are saying it is not ok to treat age groups differently, even though the risks are demonstrably higher for certain groups, as though a principle of non-discrimination is being unacceptably breached.
    Direct age discrimination under the Equality Act is unusual in that it can be objectively justified - unlike most other forms of discrimination. It has to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim though.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    I wonder why Piers Morgan/Good Morning Britain/ITV think domestic violence during the lockdown is only worth less than three minutes of an eleven minute interview?

    Is the message ITV are giving out that domestic violence is an unimportant and trivial matter?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUNlmoCEVLU&t=319s
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    Royal Mail has scrapped Saturday letter deliveries across the UK until further notice due to the coronavirus pandemic.

    Oh well, gives an extra day for Friday's post to decontaminate on the porch floor :)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    Wrong, IHT is deeply unpopular.

    Closing tax evasion loopholes is all the Tory manifesto promised not raising tax. That is what Labour governments do
    Where did I mention IHT
    I mentioned IHT because the Telegraph is involved in some kite flying about that tax this morning. 80% was the headline.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    There speaks the sensible wing of the Tory party.
    BigG voted Labour in 1997 and 2001, he is a floating voter not the Tory base
    I am not a floating voter and those on here will just ridicule you for suggesting it

    But we are very different conservatives, you a Trump leaning right winger, and me a compassionate liberal conservative

    Indeed over time Boris is likely to leave the right in his wake as he creates a fair society with good public services and sensible tax increases to address the levels of unfairness we see
    You may be a wet lettuce conservative Big G but Boris is a raw steak conservative and committed to tax cuts.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/09/boris-johnsons-radical-plan-slash-income-tax-3million-raising/

    We will also need to keep taxes low to get the economy growing again post lockdown anyway
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    This IHT story is a trial balloon. Expect many more such. The government is softeing up the Press and the reasonably off for the inevitable unavoidable fact that they are going to have to put their hands in their pockets.
    In some way shape or form.
    The numbers don't work otherwise. Either economically or electorally.

    Not happening, Boris is ideologically opposed to putting up tax or cutting spending, he is not George Osborne but a Berlusconi style populist.

    Boris and Sunak will borrow indefinitely rather than put up tax or cut spending on the police, schools or NHS
    A post that will age badly imho.
    It won't, in economics terms Boris is George W Bush crossed with Silvio Berlusconi, he believes like Dick Cheney 'deficits don't matter'
    You post with such certainty in an ever changing world

    Taxes will rise
    They will not, it would be the equivalent of George HW Bush betraying his 'no new taxes' pledge of 1988, the Tory base would rightly go mad and Tory MPs revolt en masse. Boris knows that
    Taxes will rise and by popular demand.

    You are talking of some right wingers in the party like yourself but they will be outvoted by the rest and a general consensus of equity that the wealthy have to pay more
    Wrong, IHT is deeply unpopular.

    Closing tax evasion loopholes is all the Tory manifesto promised not raising tax. That is what Labour governments do
    Where did I mention IHT
    I mentioned increasing IHT! Unearned wealth has to fund the bulk of these tax increases. Inheritances aren't earned. Let's do this to capital transfers too - the biggest problem in the London property market is caused by children buying flats primarily funded by mummy and daddy thus squeezing decent working class people out of the market. Let's tax that too!
This discussion has been closed.