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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Grand Entrance. Sir Keir Starmer’s electoral challenges

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    He's a much more effective advocate of rethinking some assumptions and measures being taken than many others. Though as noneoftheabove notes people have been asking that, and time will increase the number both asking and agreeing with it.
    My concern right now is that all of these decisions and effectively all the commentary upon the decisions are being made by people who are ideally placed to cope with an extended lockdown. They live in houses with reasonable amounts of garden, with at least some of their pastimes that lend themselves to isolation and are mentally in a place where the idea of not being able to leave your house for several weeks holds no great fear.

    For millions of people living in cities in blocks of flats, tenements or terraced houses with little, or more likely no, garden, with limited space and where they are now locked up together 24 hours a day, an extended or even quite limited full lockdown is simply not practical. They will end up throwing either themselves or another member of the family off a top floor balcony.

    With the best will in the world what is being asked of these people is not reasonable or sustainable.
    I would agree. But how to find a way round it if lockdown is toughened up is another question.

    Staggered curfews, perhaps?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Scott_xP said:
    Well, there was a man who definitely played with many organs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    The real Brexiteers are the ones who have never even been in the same room as negotations, or preparations.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sounds ominous. Would a small hike in the top rate be a reckoning?
    I don't think Starmer has yet got his head around what this all means for the economy and future taxes. I don't see any way that just hiking up taxes for the rich is going to even begin to cover this. That is not to say it shouldn't happen but it is only the tip of the iceberg as to what we are going to have to do to try and put this right afterwards.

    That is not a criticism of what is being done. But Starmer needs to understand that the whole game has changed. Most of us will just be grateful to be in a position to continue to pay taxes after this.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited April 2020
    ...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    He's a much more effective advocate of rethinking some assumptions and measures being taken than many others. Though as noneoftheabove notes people have been asking that, and time will increase the number both asking and agreeing with it.
    My concern right now is that all of these decisions and effectively all the commentary upon the decisions are being made by people who are ideally placed to cope with an extended lockdown. They live in houses with reasonable amounts of garden, with at least some of their pastimes that lend themselves to isolation and are mentally in a place where the idea of not being able to leave your house for several weeks holds no great fear.

    For millions of people living in cities in blocks of flats, tenements or terraced houses with little, or more likely no, garden, with limited space and where they are now locked up together 24 hours a day, an extended or even quite limited full lockdown is simply not practical. They will end up throwing either themselves or another member of the family off a top floor balcony.

    With the best will in the world what is being asked of these people is not reasonable or sustainable.
    I would agree. But how to find a way round it if lockdown is toughened up is another question.

    Staggered curfews, perhaps?
    Funnily enough I was just thinking of something along the lines of organised outings as I was writing that but ran into the problem of people congregating to take part. But yes I think they need to think outside the box.

    Basically if you go for a complete lockdown then they need to take on responsibility for (if you will excuse the analogy) walking the prisoners around the exercise yard at least once a day. Use the public parks with one way systems and strict distancing

    Even as I write it I return to the thought that it sounds totally impractical but they do need to find some sort of solution.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sounds ominous. Would a small hike in the top rate be a reckoning?
    I don't think Starmer has yet got his head around what this all means for the economy and future taxes. I don't see any way that just hiking up taxes for the rich is going to even begin to cover this. That is not to say it shouldn't happen but it is only the tip of the iceberg as to what we are going to have to do to try and put this right afterwards.

    That is not a criticism of what is being done. But Starmer needs to understand that the whole game has changed. Most of us will just be grateful to be in a position to continue to pay taxes after this.
    The scale of this economic disaster is very hard to get your head around. And it being shared by most of the western world at the same time will make it all the harder. Demand is going to collapse despite the efforts of governments to keep it going. Higher taxes are not really a solution to that problem.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Foxy said:

    NYTimes:

    As some nations scramble to find protective gear to fight the coronavirus pandemic, Finland is sitting on an enviable stockpile of personal protective equipment like surgical masks, putting it ahead of less-prepared Nordic neighbors.

    The stockpile, considered one of Europe’s best and built up over years, includes not only medical supplies, but also oil, grains, agricultural tools and raw materials to make ammunition. Norway, Sweden and Denmark had also amassed large stockpiles of medical and military equipment, fuel and food during the Cold War era. Later, most all but abandoned those stockpiles.

    But not Finland.

    Though others cannot win. This is France:

    https://twitter.com/thomasforth/status/1245668047223959555?s=19
    Silly question, what is making the masks deteriorate so they go out of date? Is an out of date mask clearly better than nothing? Or has it got its own dangers?

    Just wondering if the suppliers but very cautious use by dates to 1) avoid litigation for occassional malfunction 2) sell on repeat as often as possible - which would be typical of most industries.
    Filters in all kinds of filtering breathing gear are disposable and have a life span. IN the case of the disposable masks they are built in. The "reusable" kit just have removable filters, which get thrown away after x usage.

    This is true for military kit as well - around the world.
    As was reported the other day, California had 21 million N95 masks in storage for an emergency supply. When they came to distribute them they found they were all out of date.
    I'd have (and they may have) just distributed them anyway but with a warning. Better than nothing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376
    egg said:

    egg said:

    egg said:

    egg said:

    Self isolating oldies still struggling to get supermarket delivery slot. My understanding, and correct me where I am wrong, the government have implemented this ass over tit. It seems to be push not pull. “Tesco reveal they have now received part of the governments vulnerable database and have identified some of the their regular customers from it”. Etc. When they created this most vulnerable database why didn’t they give it to the supermarkets say “here a link, identify your usual customers from it. And pull what you need. Wiggle on, there’s some exasperated customers out there” Why does it have to push not pull? Why did it have to all go to Sainsbury’s first till they couldn’t cope anymore?

    The Achilles heel in all the mistakes the government has made seems to be wedded to control and lacking agility and innovation.

    The list has to be controlled by the LA who then deal with all aspects of safe guarding including arranging the food deliveries. Your dislike of all things the government does may be because you are not across the detail

    And I should know, as my son in laws father is under the scheme and it works very well across all departments and utilises the army of volunteers
    That’s very rude and Unnecessary government supportive of you, considering having the 4 page letter saying most vulnerable, then logging on the database, still no contact or recognition from a supermarket nearly two weeks later. Google it, hundreds of thousands in the same boat.

    The government are obviously raiding closed hotels for their random not entirely helpful goody bag, what vulnerable people really need is the database to deliver a slot from one of their usual supermarkets.
    Look at what I have actually posted there, I am right in what has gone wrong, the old fashioned push not pull approach. too much control, not enough agile or innovation in the government machine.
    Link to hundreds of thousands of the specific vulnerable not getting served please

    The govenment are not adminstering the system, it is the LA's who have emergency phone lines to address the concerns you are making

    I would suggest you direct anyone on the vulnerable list, or their family, to contact their LA urgently
    For those who don’t know, and unaware, a 4 page scare you white as a sheet letter given to the most vulnerable, addressed from our local doctored surgery, to 1.5M wasn’t it? What it didn’t say was having identified you we have added you to the gov.uk database for priority supermarket delivery, you got to go to gov.uk add yourself, but unable to talk to anyone or be told this on the unhelpful help numbers, I walked into Sainsbury’s and was told this by the store manager. That was two weeks ago. Still no contact from any supermarket.
    Neighbours over 70 though not in receipt of you are most vulnerable letter are getting priority deliveries from Sainsbury’s, who they rarely on line shop from but are on Sainsbury’s own database having done it couple of times. A google shows loads of people in this same boat.

    From my research the government clearly using push not pull of the information they are building. It all went to Sainsbury at first for some reason. They have not considered the digital divide that still exists will some oldies not hot on internet research and internet commerce, so those are the people suffering lack of eggs, more regular bread, etc unless they actually go out.

    Sorry Big G but I am right on this one. But I am not specifically blaming ministers, the civil service mentality is still control minded, old fashioned, not agile or innovative enough in this situation, instinctively use push not pull. It’s the civil service the government need to implement everything.
    Asda have contacted several vulnerable people of my aquaintance with slots etc.
    And at the same time your anecdote doesn’t help those who aren’t being contacted by any supermarket, most probably because of a digital divide, they don’t have an online commercial presence.
    In my experience the digital divide is rather less than has been made out. In fact supermarket deliveries were predominantly (IRRC) used (pre crisis) by the elderly and those with mobility issues.

    It is notable that there have been only 400K take up of the food parcels setup rather than using online deliveries. This seems to have been on the basis that either the person in question is online capable or has friends/family who organise it for them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,557
    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    He's a much more effective advocate of rethinking some assumptions and measures being taken than many others. Though as noneoftheabove notes people have been asking that, and time will increase the number both asking and agreeing with it.
    My concern right now is that all of these decisions and effectively all the commentary upon the decisions are being made by people who are ideally placed to cope with an extended lockdown. They live in houses with reasonable amounts of garden, with at least some of their pastimes that lend themselves to isolation and are mentally in a place where the idea of not being able to leave your house for several weeks holds no great fear.

    For millions of people living in cities in blocks of flats, tenements or terraced houses with little, or more likely no, garden, with limited space and where they are now locked up together 24 hours a day, an extended or even quite limited full lockdown is simply not practical. They will end up throwing either themselves or another member of the family off a top floor balcony.

    With the best will in the world what is being asked of these people is not reasonable or sustainable.
    I would agree. But how to find a way round it if lockdown is toughened up is another question.

    Staggered curfews, perhaps?

    Weren't there reports that, in China, they were letting blocks of people out for exercise/shopping on a staggered basis in Wuhan?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570

    egg said:

    egg said:

    egg said:

    Self isolating oldies still struggling to get supermarket delivery slot. My understanding, and correct me where I am wrong, the government have implemented this ass over tit. It seems to be push not pull. “Tesco reveal they have now received part of the governments vulnerable database and have identified some of the their regular customers from it”. Etc. When they created this most vulnerable database why didn’t they give it to the supermarkets say “here a link, identify your usual customers from it. And pull what you need. Wiggle on, there’s some exasperated customers out there” Why does it have to push not pull? Why did it have to all go to Sainsbury’s first till they couldn’t cope anymore?

    The Achilles heel in all the mistakes the government has made seems to be wedded to control and lacking agility and innovation.

    The list has to be controlled by the LA who then deal with all aspects of safe guarding including arranging the food deliveries. Your dislike of all things the government does may be because you are not across the detail

    And I should know, as my son in laws father is under the scheme and it works very well across all departments and utilises the army of volunteers
    That’s very rude and Unnecessary government supportive of you, considering having the 4 page letter saying most vulnerable, then logging on the database, still no contact or recognition from a supermarket nearly two weeks later. Google it, hundreds of thousands in the same boat.

    The government are obviously raiding closed hotels for their random not entirely helpful goody bag, what vulnerable people really need is the database to deliver a slot from one of their usual supermarkets.
    Look at what I have actually posted there, I am right in what has gone wrong, the old fashioned push not pull approach. too much control, not enough agile or innovation in the government machine.
    Link to hundreds of thousands of the specific vulnerable not getting served please

    The govenment are not adminstering the system, it is the LA's who have emergency phone lines to address the concerns you are making

    I would suggest you direct anyone on the vulnerable list, or their family, to contact their LA urgently
    For those who don’t know, and unaware, a 4 page scare you white as a sheet letter given to the most vulnerable, addressed from our local doctored surgery, to 1.5M wasn’t it? What it didn’t say was having identified you we have added you to the gov.uk database for priority supermarket delivery, you got to go to gov.uk add yourself, but unable to talk to anyone or be told this on the unhelpful help numbers, I walked into Sainsbury’s and was told this by the store manager. That was two weeks ago. Still no contact from any supermarket.
    Neighbours over 70 though not in receipt of you are most vulnerable letter are getting priority deliveries from Sainsbury’s, who they rarely on line shop from but are on Sainsbury’s own database having done it couple of times. A google shows loads of people in this same boat.

    From my research the government clearly using push not pull of the information they are building. It all went to Sainsbury at first for some reason. They have not considered the digital divide that still exists will some oldies not hot on internet research and internet commerce, so those are the people suffering lack of eggs, more regular bread, etc unless they actually go out.

    Sorry Big G but I am right on this one. But I am not specifically blaming ministers, the civil service mentality is still control minded, old fashioned, not agile or innovative enough in this situation, instinctively use push not pull. It’s the civil service the government need to implement everything.
    Let us disagree.

    I have proof positive the system is working and is only adminstered by the LAs here in Wales

    It is not just food for the vulnerable but many other services are necessary including carers, nurses, volunteers who can pick up medicines, and of course the food

    I have read many stories of how well the system is working but some will fall through the gaps.

    My point is that you cannot blame eveverything on HMG doorstep, when in this case it is a delegated power and the remedy is through the LA
    I have an old friend 300 miles away from me in Cornwall who I check up on each evening. He is also being helped by the local council who are organising local taxi firms to collect shopping from then local stores on behalf of those who cannot get out on their own. It seems to be working well there and he is quite happy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited April 2020
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    Because Boris Johnson would never, ever do something totally bonkers that seemed like a good idea at the time?
  • egg said:

    egg said:

    egg said:

    Self isolating oldies still struggling to get supermarket delivery slot. My understanding, and correct me where I am wrong, the government have implemented this ass over tit. It seems to be push not pull. “Tesco reveal they have now received part of the governments vulnerable database and have identified some of the their regular customers from it”. Etc. When they created this most vulnerable database why didn’t they give it to the supermarkets say “here a link, identify your usual customers from it. And pull what you need. Wiggle on, there’s some exasperated customers out there” Why does it have to push not pull? Why did it have to all go to Sainsbury’s first till they couldn’t cope anymore?

    The Achilles heel in all the mistakes the government has made seems to be wedded to control and lacking agility and innovation.

    The list has to be controlled by the LA who then deal with all aspects of safe guarding including arranging the food deliveries. Your dislike of all things the government does may be because you are not across the detail

    And I should know, as my son in laws father is under the scheme and it works very well across all departments and utilises the army of volunteers
    That’s very rude and Unnecessary government supportive of you, considering having the 4 page letter saying most vulnerable, then logging on the database, still no contact or recognition from a supermarket nearly two weeks later. Google it, hundreds of thousands in the same boat.

    The government are obviously raiding closed hotels for their random not entirely helpful goody bag, what vulnerable people really need is the database to deliver a slot from one of their usual supermarkets.
    Look at what I have actually posted there, I am right in what has gone wrong, the old fashioned push not pull approach. too much control, not enough agile or innovation in the government machine.
    Link to hundreds of thousands of the specific vulnerable not getting served please

    The govenment are not adminstering the system, it is the LA's who have emergency phone lines to address the concerns you are making

    I would suggest you direct anyone on the vulnerable list, or their family, to contact their LA urgently
    For those who don’t know, and unaware, a 4 page scare you white as a sheet letter given to the most vulnerable, addressed from our local doctored surgery, to 1.5M wasn’t it? What it didn’t say was having identified you we have added you to the gov.uk database for priority supermarket delivery, you got to go to gov.uk add yourself, but unable to talk to anyone or be told this on the unhelpful help numbers, I walked into Sainsbury’s and was told this by the store manager. That was two weeks ago. Still no contact from any supermarket.
    Neighbours over 70 though not in receipt of you are most vulnerable letter are getting priority deliveries from Sainsbury’s, who they rarely on line shop from but are on Sainsbury’s own database having done it couple of times. A google shows loads of people in this same boat.

    From my research the government clearly using push not pull of the information they are building. It all went to Sainsbury at first for some reason. They have not considered the digital divide that still exists will some oldies not hot on internet research and internet commerce, so those are the people suffering lack of eggs, more regular bread, etc unless they actually go out.

    Sorry Big G but I am right on this one. But I am not specifically blaming ministers, the civil service mentality is still control minded, old fashioned, not agile or innovative enough in this situation, instinctively use push not pull. It’s the civil service the government need to implement everything.
    Let us disagree.

    I have proof positive the system is working and is only adminstered by the LAs here in Wales

    It is not just food for the vulnerable but many other services are necessary including carers, nurses, volunteers who can pick up medicines, and of course the food

    I have read many stories of how well the system is working but some will fall through the gaps.

    My point is that you cannot blame eveverything on HMG doorstep, when in this case it is a delegated power and the remedy is through the LA
    I have an old friend 300 miles away from me in Cornwall who I check up on each evening. He is also being helped by the local council who are organising local taxi firms to collect shopping from then local stores on behalf of those who cannot get out on their own. It seems to be working well there and he is quite happy.
    That is the way the systemworks and anyone in trouble must phone their LA
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570

    Foxy said:

    NYTimes:

    As some nations scramble to find protective gear to fight the coronavirus pandemic, Finland is sitting on an enviable stockpile of personal protective equipment like surgical masks, putting it ahead of less-prepared Nordic neighbors.

    The stockpile, considered one of Europe’s best and built up over years, includes not only medical supplies, but also oil, grains, agricultural tools and raw materials to make ammunition. Norway, Sweden and Denmark had also amassed large stockpiles of medical and military equipment, fuel and food during the Cold War era. Later, most all but abandoned those stockpiles.

    But not Finland.

    Though others cannot win. This is France:

    https://twitter.com/thomasforth/status/1245668047223959555?s=19
    Silly question, what is making the masks deteriorate so they go out of date? Is an out of date mask clearly better than nothing? Or has it got its own dangers?

    Just wondering if the suppliers but very cautious use by dates to 1) avoid litigation for occassional malfunction 2) sell on repeat as often as possible - which would be typical of most industries.
    Filters in all kinds of filtering breathing gear are disposable and have a life span. IN the case of the disposable masks they are built in. The "reusable" kit just have removable filters, which get thrown away after x usage.

    This is true for military kit as well - around the world.
    As was reported the other day, California had 21 million N95 masks in storage for an emergency supply. When they came to distribute them they found they were all out of date.
    I'd have (and they may have) just distributed them anyway but with a warning. Better than nothing.
    I believe they did. They advised hospitals to only use them if they run out of existing newer supplies. Not heard any follow up as to whether it has happened or been an issue.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
    There are plenty of people who could think of an excuse why the rules shouldn't apply to them. Nearly everyone, probably. Where would that leave us?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Why the hell would you want to be fair to her? She is on out televisions about 20-30 times a day saying don't use your independent judgment, don't suit yourself, follow the rules and protect the NHS. It's truly remarkable that there is even a discussion about this. It shows how corrupt and crony based Scotland is.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Scott_xP said:
    RIP.

    We'll be having a bunch of hereditary peer by-elections at this rate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    The real Brexiteers are the ones who have never even been in the same room as negotations, or preparations.
    I cannot think why we would delay. If there was ever a time when a sensible Brexit negotiation that is guided by the wish to ensure the future prosperity of the EU and the UK is the likely outcome, it is this time. We are not going to get a face-spiting punishment deal from the EU in the current climate - they would be lynched.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    Other countries found the same - no matter what level of "go out as little as possible", you get morons who think that means a 6 hour rave.

    This is how you end up welding doors shut.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
    Beggars belief the SNP haven’t sacked her. Every hour they delay makes it worse.

    Because the more you ponder the story, the more appalling it is. What was the conversation in the Calderwood household before they all jaunted off to the second home?

    ‘Well, that was a tough week, telling Scots to not see relatives, not hug their grannies, and just stay the fuck home. It’s grueling.’

    ‘Well Catherine you obviously need a break from telling people to stay home.‘

    ‘You mean we need to get away from home? Yes, let’s go to a different home 50 miles away. I’ve earned it.’
    Nats neither resign nor are sacked unless its a live boy/dead girl scenario.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    @isam, while I am not opposed to seeing portraits of Thatcher posted on here from time to time, I was puzzled by why you posted that? :D
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376
    isam said:


    A Labour friend hung a picture of Maggie in the toilet, long ago. He tried trolling me over it.

    I replied with a version of the George Washington anecdote.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570

    kle4 said:

    The real Brexiteers are the ones who have never even been in the same room as negotations, or preparations.
    I cannot think why we would delay. If there was ever a time when a sensible Brexit negotiation that is guided by the wish to ensure the future prosperity of the EU and the UK. We are not going to get a face-spiting punishment deal from the EU in the current climate - they would be lynched.
    Because the final agreement between the UK and the EU needs to reflect the realities of trade and politics after the crisis. Neither side is currently in a position to make any predictions about how trade, regulation and national needs will have changed once we come out the other side of this.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,814
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
    Beggars belief the SNP haven’t sacked her. Every hour they delay makes it worse.

    Because the more you ponder the story, the more appalling it is. What was the conversation in the Calderwood household before they all jaunted off to the second home?

    ‘Well, that was a tough week, telling Scots to not see relatives, not hug their grannies, and just stay the fuck home. It’s grueling.’

    ‘Well Catherine you obviously need a break from telling people to stay home.‘

    ‘You mean we need to get away from home? Yes, let’s go to a different home 50 miles away. I’ve earned it.’
    Is there a Scottish government press conference today? Could be interesting
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    It reinforces the idea, widely held out there, that "rules apply to other people, not to me".

    Which is about the most disastrous thing you could do to undermine the efforts of all those staying home regardless of the shit life it imposes on them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?
    If I had to guess I'd think they wouldn't reduce restrictions until the end of May. If Italy is any indication deaths and new cases remain terrifyingly high for a long while.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Chris said:

    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
    There are plenty of people who could think of an excuse why the rules shouldn't apply to them. Nearly everyone, probably. Where would that leave us?
    Well my solution to this and always has been to making bossy type rules is to try to not make them in the first place .Then there is no temptation for hypocrites to make then break them
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    kle4 said:

    The real Brexiteers are the ones who have never even been in the same room as negotations, or preparations.
    I cannot think why we would delay. If there was ever a time when a sensible Brexit negotiation that is guided by the wish to ensure the future prosperity of the EU and the UK. We are not going to get a face-spiting punishment deal from the EU in the current climate - they would be lynched.
    Because the final agreement between the UK and the EU needs to reflect the realities of trade and politics after the crisis. Neither side is currently in a position to make any predictions about how trade, regulation and national needs will have changed once we come out the other side of this.
    Then we need the maximum of flexibility within the deal on both sides.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why on earth has that silly bint not resigned yet? I really don't want anyone that obtuse in charge of our medical efforts.
    Come on, how long it take to get rid of the Finance Minister when he was caught grooming teenage boys? It was hardly instant.

    Sturgeon has many strengths as a politician but her reaction to HR crises would embarrass John Major.
    Giving Salmond an opportunity to stir the shit at the moment is something she may come to regret.
    Agree - and that's the point.

    I think her reaction is basically one of female solidarity. And a determination to give no more ground or satisfaction to the misogynists in Scottish public life.

    She has just seen 9 senior womens' testimony disbelieved in a court contest featuring her old opponent Gordon Jackson teamed with Salmond.

    Her femaie Perm Secretary,Lesley Evans, is under attack from the Salmond brigade.

    Her best friend in politics, the former health secretary,Shona Robison, left office after her husband (SNP MP Stuart Hosie) was caught out philandering with a woman who was also carrying on, needless to say, with prime SNP roaster and Salmond-backer Angus Macneil.

    And now another senior woman, who is reportedly a friend, is under attack.

    I think this may explain an otherwise inexplicable decision.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sounds ominous. Would a small hike in the top rate be a reckoning?
    Why use the word “reckoning”?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Charles said:

    isam said:


    I liked Giles Dilnot’s comment that the people who seem appalled to see a few people scattered around a park on a lovely spring day are probably not living in an inner London high rise
    Absolutely!

    And this fascist attack on people driving to the countryside. Why the fuck shouldn't they? If they are in their own cars and in a remote area they are not virus vectors. We are totally ridiculous sometimes.

    You can even hear on social media an argument that they might crash their cars on the way and divert A&E staff. I mean really. Is that our level of argument now?
    People have complained the guidance isn’t clear. Any you want to make it more complex?

    Stay at home unless essential. It really is that simple.
    The A&E point is a potent one. In 2018 25,500 people are hospitalised as IN-patients after road accidents. That is the definition of Serious Injury.

    Another 125k were subject to Minor Injuries - who will also take up medical resources.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    It reinforces the idea, widely held out there, that "rules apply to other people, not to me".

    Which is about the most disastrous thing you could do to undermine the efforts of all those staying home regardless of the shit life it imposes on them.
    Yeah, precisely why she should go. I'd say the same if Hancock was seen doing the same thing, for example (can you imagine the media hysteria?)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited April 2020
    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sounds ominous. Would a small hike in the top rate be a reckoning?
    Why use the word “reckoning”?
    That's sort of what I was getting at. Sounds strange.
  • Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    kle4 said:

    The real Brexiteers are the ones who have never even been in the same room as negotations, or preparations.
    I cannot think why we would delay. If there was ever a time when a sensible Brexit negotiation that is guided by the wish to ensure the future prosperity of the EU and the UK. We are not going to get a face-spiting punishment deal from the EU in the current climate - they would be lynched.
    Because the final agreement between the UK and the EU needs to reflect the realities of trade and politics after the crisis. Neither side is currently in a position to make any predictions about how trade, regulation and national needs will have changed once we come out the other side of this.
    Whilst it is undoubtedly true that trade and the terms of trade (anyone up for long international lines of supply? Anyone? Anyone at all?) will have changed the priority must be to remove uncertainty and not get in the road when countries have enough to cope with. Policies such as not providing financial assistance by governments will obviously be binned by both sides as will quite a lot of the "level playing field" crap. Everyone will need to be free to do all that they can to keep things going. The challenge is to ensure as much as possible that this is done in a cooperative way rather than a beggar my neighbour way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    RIP.

    We'll be having a bunch of hereditary peer by-elections at this rate.
    Maybe, although I suspect Lord Bath was not the sort to have taken up one of the few Hereditary spots that are there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376
    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:


    I liked Giles Dilnot’s comment that the people who seem appalled to see a few people scattered around a park on a lovely spring day are probably not living in an inner London high rise
    Absolutely!

    And this fascist attack on people driving to the countryside. Why the fuck shouldn't they? If they are in their own cars and in a remote area they are not virus vectors. We are totally ridiculous sometimes.

    You can even hear on social media an argument that they might crash their cars on the way and divert A&E staff. I mean really. Is that our level of argument now?
    People have complained the guidance isn’t clear. Any you want to make it more complex?

    Stay at home unless essential. It really is that simple.
    The A&E point is a potent one. In 2018 25,500 people are hospitalised as IN-patients after road accidents. That is the definition of Serious Injury.

    Another 125k were subject to Minor Injuries - who will also take up medical resources.
    Since the disastrous GP contracts, GP cover on weekends is non-existent for many people. So they go to A&E.

    At least one hospital caused some ructions by trying to setup a weekend not-quite-a-GP setup - people arriving at A&E were triaged between actual A&E and the other service. IIRC GPs got quite upset that their preserve was being encroached upon.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    Because Boris Johnson would never, ever do something totally bonkers that seemed like a good idea at the time?
    I don't think this needs Boris Johnson there, throw in 'governments of any stripe' and we'd probably all agree.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Sounds ominous. Would a small hike in the top rate be a reckoning?
    Why use the word “reckoning”?
    That's sort of what I was getting at. Sounds strange.
    Shades of the Livingstone rhetoric after the bus bombings in London....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,227
    For 3 years or 5? Maybe best not to put a time on it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    egg said:

    egg said:

    egg said:

    Self isolating oldies still struggling to get supermarket delivery slot. My understanding, and correct me where I am wrong, the government have implemented this ass over tit. It seems to be push not pull. “Tesco reveal they have now received part of the governments vulnerable database and have identified some of the their regular customers from it”. Etc. When they created this most vulnerable database why didn’t they give it to the supermarkets say “here a link, identify your usual customers from it. And pull what you need. Wiggle on, there’s some exasperated customers out there” Why does it have to push not pull? Why did it have to all go to Sainsbury’s first till they couldn’t cope anymore?

    The Achilles heel in all the mistakes the government has made seems to be wedded to control and lacking agility and innovation.

    The list has to be controlled by the LA who then deal with all aspects of safe guarding including arranging the food deliveries. Your dislike of all things the government does may be because you are not across the detail

    And I should know, as my son in laws father is under the scheme and it works very well across all departments and utilises the army of volunteers
    That’s very rude and Unnecessary government supportive of you, considering having the 4 page letter saying most vulnerable, then logging on the database, still no contact or recognition from a supermarket nearly two weeks later. Google it, hundreds of thousands in the same boat.

    The government are obviously raiding closed hotels for their random not entirely helpful goody bag, what vulnerable people really need is the database to deliver a slot from one of their usual supermarkets.
    Look at what I have actually posted there, I am right in what has gone wrong, the old fashioned push not pull approach. too much control, not enough agile or innovation in the government machine.
    Link to hundreds of thousands of the specific vulnerable not getting served please

    The govenment are not adminstering the system, it is the LA's who have emergency phone lines to address the concerns you are making

    I would suggest you direct anyone on the vulnerable list, or their family, to contact their LA urgently
    For those who don’t know, and unaware, a 4 page scare you white as a sheet letter given to the most vulnerable, addressed from our local doctored surgery, to 1.5M wasn’t it? What it didn’t say was having identified you we have added you to the gov.uk database for priority supermarket delivery, you got to go to gov.uk add yourself, but unable to talk to anyone or be told this on the unhelpful help numbers, I walked into Sainsbury’s and was told this by the store manager. That was two weeks ago. Still no contact from any supermarket.
    Neighbours over 70 though not in receipt of you are most vulnerable letter are getting priority deliveries from Sainsbury’s, who they rarely on line shop from but are on Sainsbury’s own database having done it couple of times. A google shows loads of people in this same boat.

    From my research the government clearly using push not pull of the information they are building. It all went to Sainsbury at first for some reason. They have not considered the digital divide that still exists will some oldies not hot on internet research and internet commerce, so those are the people suffering lack of eggs, more regular bread, etc unless they actually go out.

    Sorry Big G but I am right on this one. But I am not specifically blaming ministers, the civil service mentality is still control minded, old fashioned, not agile or innovative enough in this situation, instinctively use push not pull. It’s the civil service the government need to implement everything.
    Let us disagree.

    I have proof positive the system is working and is only adminstered by the LAs here in Wales

    It is not just food for the vulnerable but many other services are necessary including carers, nurses, volunteers who can pick up medicines, and of course the food

    I have read many stories of how well the system is working but some will fall through the gaps.

    My point is that you cannot blame eveverything on HMG doorstep, when in this case it is a delegated power and the remedy is through the LA
    There is also food though church foodbanks for the needy
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    Fuck. Sobering.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    Rough stuff.

    You say it's a sobering anecdote, yet it makes me want to drink.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    Because Boris Johnson would never, ever do something totally bonkers that seemed like a good idea at the time?
    I don't think this needs Boris Johnson there, throw in 'governments of any stripe' and we'd probably all agree.
    True. As Sir Humphrey said, a politician’s logic runs thus:

    We must do something.
    This is something.
    Therefore we must do this.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    eadric said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
    Beggars belief the SNP haven’t sacked her. Every hour they delay makes it worse.

    Because the more you ponder the story, the more appalling it is. What was the conversation in the Calderwood household before they all jaunted off to the second home?

    ‘Well, that was a tough week, telling Scots to not see relatives, not hug their grannies, and just stay the fuck home. It’s grueling.’

    ‘Well Catherine you obviously need a break from telling people to stay home.‘

    ‘You mean we need to get away from home? Yes, let’s go to a different home 50 miles away. I’ve earned it.’
    Nats neither resign nor are sacked unless its a live boy/dead girl scenario.


    Like the Salmond affair, this story has the potential to really hurt them. It feeds into the reality that Scotland is a one party state, run by entitled apparatchiks.

    ^^ fixed that for you
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why on earth has that silly bint not resigned yet? I really don't want anyone that obtuse in charge of our medical efforts.
    Come on, how long it take to get rid of the Finance Minister when he was caught grooming teenage boys? It was hardly instant.

    Sturgeon has many strengths as a politician but her reaction to HR crises would embarrass John Major.
    Giving Salmond an opportunity to stir the shit at the moment is something she may come to regret.
    Agree - and that's the point.

    I think her reaction is basically one of female solidarity. And a determination to give no more ground or satisfaction to the misogynists in Scottish public life.

    She has just seen 9 senior womens' testimony disbelieved in a court contest featuring her old opponent Gordon Jackson teamed with Salmond.

    Her femaie Perm Secretary,Lesley Evans, is under attack from the Salmond brigade.

    Her best friend in politics, the former health secretary,Shona Robison, left office after her husband (SNP MP Stuart Hosie) was caught out philandering with a woman who was also carrying on, needless to say, with prime SNP roaster and Salmond-backer Angus Macneil.

    And now another senior woman, who is reportedly a friend, is under attack.

    I think this may explain an otherwise inexplicable decision.

    But this is way beyond questions of gender or party politics

    Hundreds, maybe thousands of lives, in Scotland, depend on the Scottish public following the CMO’s strict advice to stay home. It’s the message being repeated hourly.

    Then she brazenly disregards her own advice and actually takes a little holiday.

    She thereby endangers lives, literally and directly by not staying home, and also by undermining her crucial message. Her position is untenable.
    Quite agree. Just trying to find a rationale to explain the crazy thinking.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
    What does being a woman have to do with it? She failed to follow her own strict advice about what people can and cannot do. So she has to go. Simple!
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Time for the data of doom.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
    What does being a woman have to do with it? She failed to follow her own strict advice about what people can and cannot do. So she has to go. Simple!
    I agree. It's mad. But you have to understand the people and the personal histories.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
    What does being a woman have to do with it? She failed to follow her own strict advice about what people can and cannot do. So she has to go. Simple!
    I agree. It's mad. But you have to understand the people and the personal histories.
    I hope Sturgeon doesn't let such things influence what otherwise should be really straightforward decisions.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
    What does being a woman have to do with it? She failed to follow her own strict advice about what people can and cannot do. So she has to go. Simple!
    I agree. It's mad. But you have to understand the people and the personal histories.
    I hope Sturgeon doesn't let such things influence what otherwise should be really straightforward decisions.
    Well, she's obviously let something influence what should be a straightforward decision.
  • kle4 said:

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    Rough stuff.

    You say it's a sobering anecdote, yet it makes me want to drink.
    Me too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    The second one is a zinger.

    But in fairness, thinking about the first one, isn’t the correct procedure warning plus instruction to return home, and only then sanctions if the person doesn’t comply?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
    What does being a woman have to do with it? She failed to follow her own strict advice about what people can and cannot do. So she has to go. Simple!
    I agree. It's mad. But you have to understand the people and the personal histories.
    I hope Sturgeon doesn't let such things influence what otherwise should be really straightforward decisions.
    Straightforward decisions on which many lives depend. Sturgeon is putting her party before her country.
    I don't think it's that as it's not a political appointment.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    kle4 said:

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    Rough stuff.

    You say it's a sobering anecdote, yet it makes me want to drink.
    Me too.
    Tell her from us, a bunch of people she has never met - we are in awe of her.

    We won't forget what she has been doing. And will yet have to do. More to the point, we won't let our politicians forget either.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't know if any of you have ever been in a tower block. It's grim, and I only visit them fleetingly.
    There is a 23 storey block in Leicester called Goscote House that is scheduled for demolition. The council have given us a free run to use it for training until it goes. It's an amazing venue, and we were making good use of it until the pandemic.
    My point is this... On my first visit a few months ago, after we'd spent a couple of hours running hose up and down the stairs, we sat in a flat on the top floor contemplating life. It was a bedsit, literally a combined lounge/bedroom with ensuite bathroom and what we call an ensuite kitchen. You won't be swinging any cats in there. The windows only open an inch and there isn't a balcony. It was unremittingly bleak. I actually felt disgust that we made people live like that.
    When we're in our nice gardens this afternoon, having a beer and a bbq, wondering where we're going to source plants now that B&Q are shut, raise a glass to the ones stuck in that high-rise.

    Yes, I’m very fortunate in that I have a nice house and a garden that are amply big enough to give me space and occupy my mind. I’ve been chopping wood up for the stove and getting some of my books off the shelves. Plus I have my own research to work on.

    If I had two small children and no garden whether the police like it or not I would drive to the Chase to give them some exercise.
    I presume though that your organ is sadly neglected, and in need of a bit of pumping to keep in good order...
    Always! :smiley:

    On a serious note, however, if an organ reservoir is not regularly inflated it can damage the leathers. Then, when you do inflate them, they crack and cause £20,000 worth of damage.

    I have been wondering if I will be able to claim going to a church to do routine maintenance of the organ could be considered a ‘reasonable excuse.’ After all, it is part of my job and I can’t do it remotely. In the next week or so I will have to discuss it with the relevant clergy and make a decision.
    Given that the pump for the organ is almost certainly electric - it would be an interesting project to wire it up to a home automation setup, so you could fire it up from your house, over the internet.

    If you are moderately talented at home brew electronics, you could build the setup yourself from parts. There are plenty of kits out there. A friend setup a system to water his garden (via perforated house installed in the flower beds) - all he has to do is tap a button on app on his phone.
    It is electric - pretty much all organ blowers are now, I’ve only ever played two that aren’t - but one was built in 1928, one in 1953 and one in 1965. I don’t think I would be comfortable having them running with nobody there to keep an eye on them.
    Do what my garden watering friend did - he installed cameras as an extension of his home security system. One watching the solenoid valve for the water, a coupe watching the garden. So he can watch the operation of the system on his phone as well.

    He was smart in that he installed the solenoid valve outside, just above a drain. Worst case is that it starts leaking massively - so that is taken care of.
    Unfortunately, the worst case scenario with a blower is that it can catch fire and need extinguishing quickly if you don’t want half a million pounds’ worth of organ to be incinerated.
    Add a Halon dump system to the setup. Might prove useful in suppressing poor organists, Bloefeld style.
    I’ve never had complaints about my organ.

    The way I play large musical instruments, on the other hand...
    There's a rather entertaining chapter in Solitary Fitness, the book Foxy recommended earlier, regarding the regular servicing of one's organ.

    Definitely one better practiced at home though, rather than outdoors during the allotted exercise hour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,376

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why on earth has that silly bint not resigned yet? I really don't want anyone that obtuse in charge of our medical efforts.
    Come on, how long it take to get rid of the Finance Minister when he was caught grooming teenage boys? It was hardly instant.

    Sturgeon has many strengths as a politician but her reaction to HR crises would embarrass John Major.
    Giving Salmond an opportunity to stir the shit at the moment is something she may come to regret.
    Agree - and that's the point.

    I think her reaction is basically one of female solidarity. And a determination to give no more ground or satisfaction to the misogynists in Scottish public life.

    She has just seen 9 senior womens' testimony disbelieved in a court contest featuring her old opponent Gordon Jackson teamed with Salmond.

    Her femaie Perm Secretary,Lesley Evans, is under attack from the Salmond brigade.

    Her best friend in politics, the former health secretary,Shona Robison, left office after her husband (SNP MP Stuart Hosie) was caught out philandering with a woman who was also carrying on, needless to say, with prime SNP roaster and Salmond-backer Angus Macneil.

    And now another senior woman, who is reportedly a friend, is under attack.

    I think this may explain an otherwise inexplicable decision.

    But this is way beyond questions of gender or party politics

    Hundreds, maybe thousands of lives, in Scotland, depend on the Scottish public following the CMO’s strict advice to stay home. It’s the message being repeated hourly.

    Then she brazenly disregards her own advice and actually takes a little holiday.

    She thereby endangers lives, literally and directly by not staying home, and also by undermining her crucial message. Her position is untenable.
    Quite agree. Just trying to find a rationale to explain the crazy thinking.
    It reminds me of how some local politicians in Spain behaved - they were pained at the suggestion that they needed to follow the rules for others. Were they not of The Elect? The Upper 10,000? The Optimates?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    kle4 said:

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    Rough stuff.

    You say it's a sobering anecdote, yet it makes me want to drink.
    Me too.
    Tell her from us, a bunch of people she has never met - we are in awe of her.

    We won't forget what she has been doing. And will yet have to do. More to the point, we won't let our politicians forget either.
    What he said x 10
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    It has the flavour almost of being a one-party state. SNP have a huge sense of entitlement. I remember Billy Connolly complaining that they act as if they own the country. But this is about more than that. Suspect that, in her own mind, Sturgeon is resisting a good woman, as she sees her, being forced out by the old male guard.
    What does being a woman have to do with it? She failed to follow her own strict advice about what people can and cannot do. So she has to go. Simple!
    I agree. It's mad. But you have to understand the people and the personal histories.
    I hope Sturgeon doesn't let such things influence what otherwise should be really straightforward decisions.
    Straightforward decisions on which many lives depend. Sturgeon is putting her party before her country.
    I don't think it's that as it's not a political appointment.
    This is not about putting party before country. The whole thing damages SNP. It's about the bitterness caused by factionalism and entitled men. Nicola has just chosen to stand her ground on terrible terrain.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?
    Ours extended to 26/4 with warnings of further extensions. Relaxing of the none key worker shutdown starting after Easter. There have been 97000 fines or pending court cases for infringing the rules, obviously I can’t judge the overall attitude of the population but it is a more apartment based society and I see no mass movement to undermine it, it was introduced when active cases were 7700 on 15/3 and is far more restrictive than the UK I think most people have been scared rigid by the spread and scale of spread and just relieved we’re on the right side of the peak. I’m surprised there is not more collective fear of what could happen in the UK, to many people thinking it’s something that happens to other people maybe?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    Because Boris Johnson would never, ever do something totally bonkers that seemed like a good idea at the time?
    I don't think this needs Boris Johnson there, throw in 'governments of any stripe' and we'd probably all agree.
    True. As Sir Humphrey said, a politician’s logic runs thus:

    We must do something.
    This is something.
    Therefore we must do this.
    It is only bonkers if you think Covid 19 is a mere inconvenience. You would stay inside indefinitely if you knew for certain there was a man with a gun outside your front door who would shoot you dead if you stepped outside.

    Italy has banned going for walks unless you have a dog. It has also charged anything up to 100,000 people with breach of the rules. Nobody seems to think that is bonkers.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Spain has specifically forbidden salir a pasear (going for a walk). Spain is hotter and more high rise than London. Nobody thinks this is bonkers.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Why on earth has that silly bint not resigned yet? I really don't want anyone that obtuse in charge of our medical efforts.
    Come on, how long it take to get rid of the Finance Minister when he was caught grooming teenage boys? It was hardly instant.

    Sturgeon has many strengths as a politician but her reaction to HR crises would embarrass John Major.
    Giving Salmond an opportunity to stir the shit at the moment is something she may come to regret.
    Agree - and that's the point.

    I think her reaction is basically one of female solidarity. And a determination to give no more ground or satisfaction to the misogynists in Scottish public life.

    She has just seen 9 senior womens' testimony disbelieved in a court contest featuring her old opponent Gordon Jackson teamed with Salmond.

    Her femaie Perm Secretary,Lesley Evans, is under attack from the Salmond brigade.

    Her best friend in politics, the former health secretary,Shona Robison, left office after her husband (SNP MP Stuart Hosie) was caught out philandering with a woman who was also carrying on, needless to say, with prime SNP roaster and Salmond-backer Angus Macneil.

    And now another senior woman, who is reportedly a friend, is under attack.

    I think this may explain an otherwise inexplicable decision.

    But this is way beyond questions of gender or party politics

    Hundreds, maybe thousands of lives, in Scotland, depend on the Scottish public following the CMO’s strict advice to stay home. It’s the message being repeated hourly.

    Then she brazenly disregards her own advice and actually takes a little holiday.

    She thereby endangers lives, literally and directly by not staying home, and also by undermining her crucial message. Her position is untenable.
    Quite agree. Just trying to find a rationale to explain the crazy thinking.
    It reminds me of how some local politicians in Spain behaved - they were pained at the suggestion that they needed to follow the rules for others. Were they not of The Elect? The Upper 10,000? The Optimates?
    There was a lot of early denial particularly around the women’s day marches and up to a few days before the lockdown the Valencian president still wanted to go ahead with the Fallas. There are very few dissenting voices now, some of the same people who wanted to carry on as normal became the biggest advocates for tougher measures.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,000
    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    Always good to get the moral nitty gritty from someone who claims to have had the virus (tbc) hunkering down in a place several hundred miles from their own home, and who takes long improving walks in the locale while tooled up.

    For the avoidance of doubt, Calderwood should go asap on the proviso that there's someone qualified to immediately replace her that isn't already doing an important job.

    Quite a lot of hero to zero action going on currently (eg Gordon Jackson) . There's even some in the opposite direction, Matt Hancock -23 to 0.0011 for example.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?
    Ours extended to 26/4 with warnings of further extensions. Relaxing of the none key worker shutdown starting after Easter. There have been 97000 fines or pending court cases for infringing the rules, obviously I can’t judge the overall attitude of the population but it is a more apartment based society and I see no mass movement to undermine it, it was introduced when active cases were 7700 on 15/3 and is far more restrictive than the UK I think most people have been scared rigid by the spread and scale of spread and just relieved we’re on the right side of the peak. I’m surprised there is not more collective fear of what could happen in the UK, to many people thinking it’s something that happens to other people maybe?
    Maybe we’re in a collective 12-Step. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Stick to rules, don’t fixate on the future and take each day as it comes. Works well in prison too.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Does anyone have a link to Andy's most recent chart of log deaths per capita if he's still doing it?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    Interesting read in the New Yorker, raising the question of whether the level of exposure to the virus affects the severity of the disease:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/06/how-does-the-coronavirus-behave-inside-a-patient

    Yes, a very readable and insightful piece.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    In France: exercise max 1 hour, within 1 km of home, and carrying with you a written attestation as to what you are up to.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    TGOHF666 said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Her excuse makes it worse. As ever.

    ‘I had to check to see my second home was secure’..... with her entire family in tow?
    I am not the most enthused about bossy government/police instructions at this time . A balance is needed with people in flats with no garden needing an outlet to relax . However I cannot stand hypocrites in this situation - the ones who like to issue bossy directives and yet then break them themselves - This is a classic case - I hope she is sacked tomorrow
    Beggars belief the SNP haven’t sacked her. Every hour they delay makes it worse.

    Because the more you ponder the story, the more appalling it is. What was the conversation in the Calderwood household before they all jaunted off to the second home?

    ‘Well, that was a tough week, telling Scots to not see relatives, not hug their grannies, and just stay the fuck home. It’s grueling.’

    ‘Well Catherine you obviously need a break from telling people to stay home.‘

    ‘You mean we need to get away from home? Yes, let’s go to a different home 50 miles away. I’ve earned it.’
    Nats neither resign nor are sacked unless its a live boy/dead girl scenario.
    Michelle Thompson begs to differ
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited April 2020

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    As Gove said, Yorkshire is starting to see an exponential increase in cases.

    This is something that still doesn’t appear to be getting through, that the ‘war’ shifts in location and in severity over time. It doesn’t negate the fact that the country is at war, just because there’s nothing to see where you are. The whole situation is a challenge to the whole ‘if I don’t see it, it’s not happening mentality’. With the virus being literally unseen, with some hospitals working flat out whilst others wait, with death not having the sound of a bomb going off but just a silent ambulance, passing by unnoticed.

    With the Queen apparently going to talk about the need for self discipline, with further warnings from Hancock against those who think that slackening off is fine, with other nations further down the line than us, having to extend and extend as the danger remains, surely the hold outs will get the message now?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    eadric said:

    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:
    This is among the things that are not going to occur. Imagine the outcry, and the field day for snoopers and other people shouldists. Furthermore it's bonkers.

    My guess would be the threat is to reinforce the message that the lockdown remains very serious, so don't think about it relaxing just yet, and keep doing what you're doing. We are very early into it after all and some will already be getting restless. So remind them it could be worse.
    Two weeks into it tomorrow. A third of the way through the worst?
    Ours extended to 26/4 with warnings of further extensions. Relaxing of the none key worker shutdown starting after Easter. There have been 97000 fines or pending court cases for infringing the rules, obviously I can’t judge the overall attitude of the population but it is a more apartment based society and I see no mass movement to undermine it, it was introduced when active cases were 7700 on 15/3 and is far more restrictive than the UK I think most people have been scared rigid by the spread and scale of spread and just relieved we’re on the right side of the peak. I’m surprised there is not more collective fear of what could happen in the UK, to many people thinking it’s something that happens to other people maybe?
    Here in Penarth Glamorgan almost everyone is obeying. Strict social distancing in shops. Very few cars. Walks of households or loners.

    However a friend of mine in Cornwall just said he saw a car load of people heading to the beach with a surfboard on the roof.

    I fear our lockdown could get worse.
    You’re like the media who showed video of Brighton beach last year to illustrate a story about people “ignoring” social distancing. In fact the Sussex plod have been saying the lockdown is well observed.

    And WTF are you doing in Penarth anyway?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    "Singapore: 'Large number of migrants infected'
    We've just reported that Singapore has recorded its highest daily jump in cases. Now we have more details about these 120 new infections and measures the government are taking.
    The government data indicate that large numbers of migrant workers are infected with the virus. The government is quarantining two dormitories, with around 20,000 people, and preventing workers from leaving their rooms for the next 14 days.
    Of the 120 cases, 116 are locally transmitted (rather than brought by visitors to Singapore). The government hopes to prevent further spread among migrants.
    The country has around 300,000 foreign workers, many employed in construction."


    I dread to think what a "dormitory" is...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    kle4 said:

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    Rough stuff.

    You say it's a sobering anecdote, yet it makes me want to drink.
    Me too.
    This is what the people who are moaning about not being allowed to sunbathe need ramming down their throats.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    IshmaelZ said:

    In France: exercise max 1 hour, within 1 km of home, and carrying with you a written attestation as to what you are up to.

    1km? That's a lot of jogging back and forth between lampposts, seems like it would hinder effective social distancing.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IshmaelZ said:

    Spain has specifically forbidden salir a pasear (going for a walk). Spain is hotter and more high rise than London. Nobody thinks this is bonkers.

    18 today on the cast, quite cloudy, 19 and cloudy in Madrid. It may well be a factor though in the governments desire to contain it and fast because. At 32 on the coast and 40+ in Madrid then it would be more than unpleasant.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Agree. And to be fair to the Scotland CMO, I don't think she did any harm, and was doing what she felt best for her family's wellbeing. The only trouble is, it conflicted directly with the advice she was dishing out.
    Not doing any actual harm would be something to consider in any response. Doing what was best for her own and family wellbeing would not be, if in doing so it did do harm.

    It's rough, but there are a lot of people, some of them heroes other just leaders, who are because of their positions being expected to put others before their own or their own family's wellbeing (which is not the same as asking them to put their families in harm, I hasten to add) right now.
    If the CMO for Scotland can afford a lovely 2nd home, I rather doubt her first home is a bedsit in Cumbernauld, which her family must escape for their ‘wellbeing’

    Meanwhile, Calderwood HAS been asking bedsitters in Cumbernauld to stay in their tiny apartments, even as she jollies off to the coast.

    In England she’d be toast by this evening. Is Scotland politically THAT different?
    Always good to get the moral nitty gritty from someone who claims to have had the virus (tbc) hunkering down in a place several hundred miles from their own home, and who takes long improving walks in the locale while tooled up.

    For the avoidance of doubt, Calderwood should go asap on the proviso that there's someone qualified to immediately replace her that isn't already doing an important job.

    Quite a lot of hero to zero action going on currently (eg Gordon Jackson) . There's even some in the opposite direction, Matt Hancock -23 to 0.0011 for example.
    Lol

    1 I came here long before lockdown. Because I knew what was coming, unlike most of you.

    2 I am not the Chief Medical Officer of the nation, telling you all firmly to stay home. Tho, to be honest, you’d be better off if I was. I’d have made HMG buy 1 billion masks in early Feb, and distributed them to the public, with an educational campaign telling us how we must wear them

    Many of us did. You swore at me for criticising your selfish decision saying it was to protect your family. You claimed to have the virus and travelled with it thus possibly taking it to an area less able to cope. Lockdown or no you should not have done so. It was morally unconscionable. If you are going to criticise others you need to accept you have behaved badly in this.
  • 621 more Covid-19 deaths in the UK.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    alex_ said:

    "Singapore: 'Large number of migrants infected'
    We've just reported that Singapore has recorded its highest daily jump in cases. Now we have more details about these 120 new infections and measures the government are taking.
    The government data indicate that large numbers of migrant workers are infected with the virus. The government is quarantining two dormitories, with around 20,000 people, and preventing workers from leaving their rooms for the next 14 days.
    Of the 120 cases, 116 are locally transmitted (rather than brought by visitors to Singapore). The government hopes to prevent further spread among migrants.
    The country has around 300,000 foreign workers, many employed in construction."


    I dread to think what a "dormitory" is...

    Probably a building, or collection of buildings, that has rooms where workers can sleep.

    I'll get my coat.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,000
    eadric said:


    I am not the Chief Medical Officer of the nation, telling you all firmly to stay home.

    So you're a nobody blarting away on t'interent? Fair enough, that's a club I can identify with.
  • ukpaul said:

    Here’s a sobering anecdote for you all.

    My niece is 3 shifts through a stint of 4 night shifts in an A&E department in Yorkshire. She is a nurse.

    She is a tough cookie. A few years ago she met the ambulance bringing her Dad to A&E after he suffered a huge asthma attack. She had no idea her Dad was in the ambulance when those doors opened. He died. She dealt with it. She has seen plenty of death because of her job.

    This morning she got back from work and has cried, sobbed, for 2 hours straight because of all the death she has seen over the past few days. Covid 19 patients are being treated in her A&E department and they, mostly older people, are dropping like flies.

    This is not a particular hot spot for the virus.

    This will be happening up and down the country.

    I’m not trying to make a point here, I’m just relaying the situation.

    As Gove said, Yorkshire is starting to see an exponential increase in cases.

    This is something that still doesn’t appear to be getting through, that the ‘war’ shifts in location and in severity over time. It doesn’t negate the fact that the country is at war, just because there’s nothing to see where you are. The whole situation is a challenge to the whole ‘if I don’t see it, it’s not happening mentality’. With the virus being literally unseen, with some hospitals working flat out whilst others wait, with death not having the sound of a bomb going off but just a silent ambulance, passing by unnoticed.

    With the Queen apparently going to talk about the need for self discipline, with further warnings from Hancock against those who think that slackening off is fine, with other nations further down the line than us, having to extend and extend as the danger remains, surely the hold outs will get the message now?
    I hope so. Not holding my breath.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    621 more Covid-19 deaths in the UK.

    Down? :o
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,037
    eadric said:

    621 more Covid-19 deaths in the UK.

    That’s.... “good”. Fewer deaths.

    Is it working?
    Weekend effect?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited April 2020
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    "Singapore: 'Large number of migrants infected'
    We've just reported that Singapore has recorded its highest daily jump in cases. Now we have more details about these 120 new infections and measures the government are taking.
    The government data indicate that large numbers of migrant workers are infected with the virus. The government is quarantining two dormitories, with around 20,000 people, and preventing workers from leaving their rooms for the next 14 days.
    Of the 120 cases, 116 are locally transmitted (rather than brought by visitors to Singapore). The government hopes to prevent further spread among migrants.
    The country has around 300,000 foreign workers, many employed in construction."


    I dread to think what a "dormitory" is...

    Probably a building, or collection of buildings, that has rooms where workers can sleep.

    I'll get my coat.
    :)

    20,000 people confined to their (presumably single) rooms for 14 days. That's worse than prison.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    eadric said:

    621 more Covid-19 deaths in the UK.

    That’s.... “good”. Fewer deaths.

    Is it working?
    Went down last weekend too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    eadric said:


    I am not the Chief Medical Officer of the nation, telling you all firmly to stay home.

    So you're a nobody blarting away on t'interent? Fair enough, that's a club I can identify with.
    Speak for yourself. I chunter rather than blart.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not really surprising following the media onslaught last week but I also think those losing income without receiving immediate cash from HMG will be unhappy
    It’s the rhetoric vs reality gap. The daily press conferences are an error, should be twice a week. There is a perverse incentive to announce things rather than deliver things.
    Fair point.. but the problem is that the media would go nuts without its daily update.. how else do they fill their schedules/newpapers
    Who cares. Governments primarily job is not to feed the media.
    So the government should focus on fighting the crisis or feeding the press? If you really need to, on the off days let the monarchy, the opposition or the nations have a go. Send Charles out, he should be immune.
    Oi! What did I ever do to you?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not really surprising following the media onslaught last week but I also think those losing income without receiving immediate cash from HMG will be unhappy
    It’s the rhetoric vs reality gap. The daily press conferences are an error, should be twice a week. There is a perverse incentive to announce things rather than deliver things.
    Fair point.. but the problem is that the media would go nuts without its daily update.. how else do they fill their schedules/newpapers
    Who cares. Governments primarily job is not to feed the media.
    So the government should focus on fighting the crisis or feeding the press? If you really need to, on the off days let the monarchy, the opposition or the nations have a go. Send Charles out, he should be immune.
    Oi! What did I ever do to you?
    For the good of the nation, Charles.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eadric said:

    eadric said:


    I am not the Chief Medical Officer of the nation, telling you all firmly to stay home.

    So you're a nobody blarting away on t'interent? Fair enough, that's a club I can identify with.
    Indeed. That’s what I am. And for the avoidance of doubt, this proves I am not SeanT

    I can’t imagine him quarantining in South Wales, FFS. He’d surely go to the Maldives, or a private beach in Queensland.
    Nevertheless the law is that you are supposed to be at home. Not on holiday. Indeed holiday accommodation businesses themselves are supposed to be closed down.
This discussion has been closed.