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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Events, events – how even a government with a big majority can

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited March 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Events, events – how even a government with a big majority can be knocked off course

Who can now remember that far off time – those few weeks between the election and Xmas – when it seemed as if the agonies of the previous three years were finally over? For good or ill, there was a government with a majority, Brexit (at least the departure) would no longer agonise the country (at least not quite so painfully and visibly), Corbyn was on his way out and there was the interesting spectacle of seeing how the Tories would reward their new Northern voters to look forward to. It seemed as if more normal political events were on their way.

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    First!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland
  • A few things:

    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.
    2. Roads noticeably quieter this morning. Makes life easier for those of us who need to work not from home
    3. Talk up thread about interest rates and liquidity. They are going to have to implement a debt holiday. Lower interest rates does nothing if your business is drying up as people suspend their normal operations.

    You can keep going with a lower income - cut your outgoings! For both people and businesses a lot of outgoings are debt - mortgage, loans, capex etc. These aircraft that are about to be parked up won't be owned outright by the airlines. Most businesses rent, most people rent or pay a mortgage, then we have loans for so many things.

    If incomes are to drop through the floor then to avoid mass personal and business bankruptcy we need a debt holiday. Let the remaining liquid cash in circulation keep circulating not be repaid to the banks. Which means the government step in, float the banks off the rocks in exchange for a moratorium on all lending repayments until this is all over.

    Whats more this needs to happen worldwide. Big businesses are global, smaller businesses buy global. We can lock down our physical borders but the electronic movement of money is unaffected. Something that Bozza could suggest at the G7 whilst looking at that flying pig out the window...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    FTSE now trading in the 4900s
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Globalisation defeated by globulisation.
  • As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507
    Apparently ISIS has advised its terrorists to avoid Europe because of Coronavirus. You dont want your suicide bombers getting poorly.
  • Blood bath on markets across Europe heading towards 10% drop
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2020
    IanB2 said:

    FTSE now trading in the 4900s

    If Southeast Asia continues to recover from the infection and Europe and the USA continue to have problems, will the 3800 to 4200-type area of 2008-9 and 2002-3 too be the bottom for a while now, I wonder.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited March 2020
    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block only and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The airlines are disposable; The UK operations of Airbus, Boeing and Rolls Royce aerospace are far more stratigically important.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    An early winner in today's Brexit shoehorn competition.

    Interesting that despite posting thousands of comments, HYUFD still doesn't know what "free movement" means in the context of EU UK negotiations.
  • HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    It's astonishing that there are people who still confuse free movement of with border control.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019

    Waterloo Station - the busiest station in the UK - at 7:57am on a Monday... pic.twitter.com/EhgEmyQi7l

    — Paul McNamara (@PGMcNamara) March 16, 2020
  • glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block only and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    That would completely cripple the EU economy. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?
  • Foss said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The airlines are disposable; The UK operations of Airbus, Boeing and Rolls Royce aerospace are far more stratigically important.
    Maybe but they are directly linked.

    I know Airbus are seeing order cancellations and lots of worried bosses
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680

    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block onlyn and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    Why are you doing this weird linking of the Coronavirus crisis to Brexit? It just sounds very peculiar. Something to do with Boris and a ‘Falklands Moment’ I take it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    An early winner in today's Brexit shoehorn competition.

    Interesting that despite posting thousands of comments, HYUFD still doesn't know what "free movement" means in the context of EU UK negotiations.
    It can clearly be stopped for health reasons, it could even be stopped for economic reasons when transition controls were imposed, yet no flexibility for the UK
  • glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block only and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    That would completely cripple the EU economy. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?
    The EU economy is already crippled.

    Nothing is going to be the same post covid 19 including the EU
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    An early winner in today's Brexit shoehorn competition.

    Interesting that despite posting thousands of comments, HYUFD still doesn't know what "free movement" means in the context of EU UK negotiations.
    It can clearly be stopped for health reasons, it could even be stopped for economic reasons when transition controls were imposed, yet no flexibility for the UK
    You’re so boring man.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited March 2020

    IanB2 said:

    FTSE now trading in the 4900s

    If Southeast Asia continues to recover from the infection and Europe and the USA continue to have problems, will the 3800 to 4200-type area of 2008-9 and 2002-3 too be the bottom for a while now, I wonder.
    If Southeast Asia continues to recover, it will be able to buy the best bits of the West's economy for a song....
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    edited March 2020
    As long as they keep the pubs open.

    All we need now is for the newspapers to print on softer paper. My granny never used toilet roll, she made do with the Daily Express cut into squares. Mind you, she never had an inside toilet and people were less fussy then. She died of pneumonia at the age of 72, but people did then.

    I'm close to her age now, but I had the advantage of a healthier life. With no real co-morbidity, an arthritic knee doesn't really count.

    This time next year, I fully expect to be here with only the odd friend missing but at my age that's becoming normal. My risks are low. The health service will have been over-worked but will do a grand job - as usual.

    As has been stated down-thread, it's becoming boring now. The twitter experts itrritate but some people will always want to impress.

    Boris has impressed me. It may be the logical thing to do, but my view of politicians is uniformily low anyway. Of course ... if he closes the pubs ...
  • glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block onlyn and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    Why are you doing this weird linking of the Coronavirus crisis to Brexit? It just sounds very peculiar. Something to do with Boris and a ‘Falklands Moment’ I take it.
    Not linking it to brexit.

    Change is coming.

    The EU are facing enormous strains as nations fight to defend their own economies unilaterally

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2020
    Counterparty risk for companies must be huge. Who is going to sell on credit at the moment?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited March 2020

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    In response to @IanB2 (fpt): “And that we don’t have Blue Peter for ideas as to what to make out of all the tubes.”

    Loo roll tubes are perfect for planting sweet pea seedlings, which have long roots. So plant your seeds then when they have one or two leaves and are seedlings fill your empty loo roll tubes with soil and transfer your seedlings. As soon as they grow into healthy young plants then you can transfer them outside or into a pot.

    Choose a variety that is scented and remember to pick the flowers as soon as they appear - for vases in the home. That way the plant won’t turn to seed and you’ll have beautiful flowers all summer long.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Urquhart, that reminds me, writ large, of when 'sexism' was fought by some organisation (forget if it were the EU or the UK Government) banning sex as a risk category for insurance purposes.

    Men lost out on annuities (paid the same per year as women despite living shorter lives, which used to mean more per year for a total the same), women lost out on car insurance because their better safety average didn't count.

    It's quite special to argue it's ageist to try and stop the elderly from being killed by disease.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    FPT


    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.

    GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THAT GYM
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    But will they change their rules on landing rights?

    For example, if the UK government nationalises IAG (which is a Spanish company) then it could lose its rights for domestic EU travel with Iberia. Which would not be good.

    But nationalising BA would undermine the entire business model for IAG and probably bankrupt Iberia.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    In response to @IanB2 (fpt): “And that we don’t have Blue Peter for ideas as to what to make out of all the tubes.”

    Loo roll tubes are perfect for planting sweet pea seedlings, which have long roots. So plant your seeds then when they have one or two leaves and are seedlings fill your empty loo roll tubes with soil and transfer your seedlings. As soon as they grow into healthy young plants then you can transfer them outside or into a pot.

    Choose a variety that is scented and remember to pick the flowers as soon as they appear - for vases in the home. That way the plant won’t turn to seed and you’ll have beautiful flowers all summer long.

    You could stack them one on top of the other to make homemade Tuley tubes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited March 2020

    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block only and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    That would completely cripple the EU economy. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?
    The EU economy is already crippled.

    Nothing is going to be the same post covid 19 including the EU
    Just remember people were saying the same in 2008/9. Yet here we are, companies, individuals and governments all still mired in debt.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    I agree with that
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block onlyn and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    Why are you doing this weird linking of the Coronavirus crisis to Brexit? It just sounds very peculiar. Something to do with Boris and a ‘Falklands Moment’ I take it.
    Not linking it to brexit.

    Change is coming.

    The EU are facing enormous strains as nations fight to defend their own economies unilaterally

    Are we likely to avoid the same enormous strains? I think not.

    There may well be stresses that push the EU to the limit from individual national interests, conversely there might be a safety in numbers element too as the rebuilding begins.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block only and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    That would completely cripple the EU economy. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?
    Assuming he means trading bloc + single market (which is what I suspect), why?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    CD13 said:

    As long as they keep the pubs open.

    All we need now is for the newspapers to print on softer paper. My granny never used toilet roll, she made do with the Daily Express cut into squares. Mind you, she never had an inside toilet and people were less fussy then. She died of pneumonia at the age of 72, but people did then.

    I'm close to her age now, but I had the advantage of a healthier life. With no real co-morbidity, an arthritic knee doesn't really count.

    This time next year, I fully expect to be here with only the odd friend missing but at my age that's becoming normal. My risks are low. The health service will have been over-worked but will do a grand job - as usual.

    As has been stated down-thread, it's becoming boring now. The twitter experts itrritate but some people will always want to impress.

    Boris has impressed me. It may be the logical thing to do, but my view of politicians is uniformily low anyway. Of course ... if he closes the pubs ...

    Pubs are all closed here in Cologne. I expect they will be closed in Britain a couple of weeks.

    They decided to close the schools here on Friday, it took until yesterday to decide to close the brothels...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    You can police a quarantine based on age. How are you supposed to do so for health conditions? You just have to hope that people who are already ill are sufficiently sensible, or sufficiently fearful, to do the right thing
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Day three of lockdown, have sent email to doctor asking if my treatment will be affected. Now deciding when to have my big outing, going to the supermarket. Lockdown has been clarified as

    Don’t go for a walk unless exercising the dog
    Don’t meet up with friends even on own property
    Don’t call in on neighbours
    No sporting activities, you can ride your bike to the shops which are open but not for exercise
    No birthday parties
    No funeral wakes

    199 fines and one arrest in Madrid yesterday for breaking lockdown.

    Still not sure who can work and who can not

    There is no alternative let’s hope the summer comes early.
  • FPT


    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.

    GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THAT GYM
    Please do not shout
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Dancer,

    "t's quite special to argue it's ageist to try and stop the elderly from being killed by disease. "

    He's a politician, he just can't stop himself.

    Keeping the pubs open will help with herd immunity. For the oldies with other problems, they may become isolated, but at least that could shorten the time scale. Who knows? The ability to predict is the cornerstone of science certainty, but with coronavirus, there's bound to be an element of guesswork.
  • Just had a briefing. We're pretty much carrying on as normal, but I think we'll knock all none emergency contact with the public on the head for the foreseeable very soon.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    CD13 said:

    As long as they keep the pubs open.

    All we need now is for the newspapers to print on softer paper. My granny never used toilet roll, she made do with the Daily Express cut into squares. Mind you, she never had an inside toilet and people were less fussy then. She died of pneumonia at the age of 72, but people did then.

    I'm close to her age now, but I had the advantage of a healthier life. With no real co-morbidity, an arthritic knee doesn't really count.

    This time next year, I fully expect to be here with only the odd friend missing but at my age that's becoming normal. My risks are low. The health service will have been over-worked but will do a grand job - as usual.

    As has been stated down-thread, it's becoming boring now. The twitter experts itrritate but some people will always want to impress.

    Boris has impressed me. It may be the logical thing to do, but my view of politicians is uniformily low anyway. Of course ... if he closes the pubs ...

    Here's a public health announcement: Your arse may be able to cope with the Daily Express, your plumbing isn't. So if going down that route you need one of those little baskets, and a disposal strategy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    IanB2 said:

    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block only and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    That would completely cripple the EU economy. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?
    The EU economy is already crippled.

    Nothing is going to be the same post covid 19 including the EU
    Just remember people were saying the same in 2008/9. Yet here we are, companies, individuals and governments all still mired in debt.
    Indeed.

    And moreover, businesses head into this fundamentally “healthy” (ie, were perfectly able to keep going under previous assumptions).

    What is happening is a catastrophic collapse of demand, && and (labour, investment) supply at the same time.

    Time to find out if the zero growth Green types have a point.
  • Charles said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    But will they change their rules on landing rights?

    For example, if the UK government nationalises IAG (which is a Spanish company) then it could lose its rights for domestic EU travel with Iberia. Which would not be good.

    But nationalising BA would undermine the entire business model for IAG and probably bankrupt Iberia.
    To be honest I think the enormous dislocation this is causing, and will continue to cause, will raise questions over the viability of lots of organisations and indeed the EU unless it can adapt to a completely new model
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    kamski said:

    CD13 said:

    As long as they keep the pubs open.

    All we need now is for the newspapers to print on softer paper. My granny never used toilet roll, she made do with the Daily Express cut into squares. Mind you, she never had an inside toilet and people were less fussy then. She died of pneumonia at the age of 72, but people did then.

    I'm close to her age now, but I had the advantage of a healthier life. With no real co-morbidity, an arthritic knee doesn't really count.

    This time next year, I fully expect to be here with only the odd friend missing but at my age that's becoming normal. My risks are low. The health service will have been over-worked but will do a grand job - as usual.

    As has been stated down-thread, it's becoming boring now. The twitter experts itrritate but some people will always want to impress.

    Boris has impressed me. It may be the logical thing to do, but my view of politicians is uniformily low anyway. Of course ... if he closes the pubs ...

    Pubs are all closed here in Cologne. I expect they will be closed in Britain a couple of weeks.

    They decided to close the schools here on Friday, it took until yesterday to decide to close the brothels...
    Taking advice from Melina Mercuri.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Z,

    That was always the problem with newspapers. You need heavy duty plumbing. Hence my plea for softer paper.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    75 year olds with no health issues are a pretty minor minority.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    edited March 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    The border closures are emergency measures. Just like closing schools. No serious person is claiming this is the end of FOM, just as no one is claiming a 9 year old who is currently off school will not get an education.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FPT


    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.

    GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THAT GYM
    Please do not shout
    There are times it is warranted.

    *Everyone* should be staying away from gyms right now. They are an almost perfect vector location
  • glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block onlyn and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    Why are you doing this weird linking of the Coronavirus crisis to Brexit? It just sounds very peculiar. Something to do with Boris and a ‘Falklands Moment’ I take it.
    Not linking it to brexit.

    Change is coming.

    The EU are facing enormous strains as nations fight to defend their own economies unilaterally

    Are we likely to avoid the same enormous strains? I think not.

    There may well be stresses that push the EU to the limit from individual national interests, conversely there might be a safety in numbers element too as the rebuilding begins.
    I did not want to give the impression we are exempt, we are not
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603
    Foss said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The airlines are disposable; The UK operations of Airbus, Boeing and Rolls Royce aerospace are far more stratigically important.
    No-one is buying planes at the moment, the biggest airlines are trying everything they can to defer deliveries, at a time when they're parking a lot of the planes they already have.

    Agree that there are strategic industries that will have to be kept running though, BAe and RR amongst them.

    I'm also following a Formula 1 forum, where people are making the point that if the government need a bunch of stuff (ventilators etc) making quickly, there's plenty of hi-tech engineering firms in the UK that could step up if required.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    Free movement and border control are not the same thing. Nobody is questioning the residency rights of EU citizens anywhere but here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Just had a briefing. We're pretty much carrying on as normal, but I think we'll knock all none emergency contact with the public on the head for the foreseeable very soon.

    No more cat rescues?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    You can police a quarantine based on age. How are you supposed to do so for health conditions? You just have to hope that people who are already ill are sufficiently sensible, or sufficiently fearful, to do the right thing
    I can’t see how any of this can be ‘policed’. Are we going to be issued a hotline number to grass anyone we see in public with grey hair and wrinkles?
  • FPT


    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.

    GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THAT GYM
    Please do not shout
    Why get away from the gym? Hand sanitiser on entry. And on exit from changing rooms. And when changing equipment. Which gets wiped down with sanitiser before and after.

    Exercise will keep me sane.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    This is the bit that is lacking. What is the strategy for a working age person with a chronic illness who has a school aged child and working spouse? Everyone locks themselves away?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    JM1 said:

    kamski said:

    CD13 said:

    As long as they keep the pubs open.

    All we need now is for the newspapers to print on softer paper. My granny never used toilet roll, she made do with the Daily Express cut into squares. Mind you, she never had an inside toilet and people were less fussy then. She died of pneumonia at the age of 72, but people did then.

    I'm close to her age now, but I had the advantage of a healthier life. With no real co-morbidity, an arthritic knee doesn't really count.

    This time next year, I fully expect to be here with only the odd friend missing but at my age that's becoming normal. My risks are low. The health service will have been over-worked but will do a grand job - as usual.

    As has been stated down-thread, it's becoming boring now. The twitter experts itrritate but some people will always want to impress.

    Boris has impressed me. It may be the logical thing to do, but my view of politicians is uniformily low anyway. Of course ... if he closes the pubs ...

    Pubs are all closed here in Cologne. I expect they will be closed in Britain a couple of weeks.

    They decided to close the schools here on Friday, it took until yesterday to decide to close the brothels...
    Hahaha. But yes, we are about a week behind Germany so should expect closures in a few days. @Kamski my sense from colleagues near Frankfurt is that they had not been (over the past few weeks) undertaking as much work from home as people have been spontaneously doing here - is that a fair impression?
    It might be, I'm not sure. But closing all schools and kindergartens from today (think that's also the case in Hessen) has forced plenty of people to work from home, so I guess that's changing quickly.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    You can police a quarantine based on age. How are you supposed to do so for health conditions? You just have to hope that people who are already ill are sufficiently sensible, or sufficiently fearful, to do the right thing
    I was more concerned with the messaging than the policing. I’m not sure you can do much about the policing in reality.

    A 50 year old with COPD needs to be extra careful. If the message is all about 70 year olds then the risk is not being well communicated.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603

    Just had a briefing. We're pretty much carrying on as normal, but I think we'll knock all none emergency contact with the public on the head for the foreseeable very soon.

    Good luck to those like yourself in frontline roles, for whom working from home isn't an option.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited March 2020
    OT on the VP pick - I'd been thinking if Biden was constraining himself needlessly to pick a woman it had to be because he'd already made the pick, and the only reason to do that now would be as part of a deal, and since Buttigieg is not currently a woman, it had to be KLOBUCHAR.

    However, someone smarter than me on r/neoliberal points out:
    There's another guy fitting the requirements if you replace Super Tuesday by South Carolina. Clyburn specifically asked for a black woman and it can certainly be argued he saved Biden's campaign by single-handedly delivering a crushing victory in SC, setting in motion the snowball. I can't imagine Biden not following suit, or at least let Clyburn vet his options, and I'm not too sure he'd be fond of Klobuchar.
    So that argues for Kamala Harris or Stacey Abrams, this person also goes on to suggest Florida Congresswoman Val Demings.
  • Just had a briefing. We're pretty much carrying on as normal, but I think we'll knock all none emergency contact with the public on the head for the foreseeable very soon.

    No more cat rescues?
    Knocked those on the head a while ago. The thinking is that the cat got up there, it'll come down when it gets bored.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    75 year olds with no health issues are a pretty minor minority.
    I know plenty.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    FTSE now trading in the 4900s

    If Southeast Asia continues to recover from the infection and Europe and the USA continue to have problems, will the 3800 to 4200-type area of 2008-9 and 2002-3 too be the bottom for a while now, I wonder.
    You'd expect some resistance around the 5000 level, being such a round number, and as was seen in the late 90s and a few times around 2010-2012. After that, you're looking at mid to high 3000s, as you say, taking us back to the post 9/11 and post GFC lows, both sharp but very short lived.

    Despite the size of the falls so far, with a flow of bad medical and bad economic news almost nailed on, I'd expect we'll see further falls. The turnround, which may come quite quickly, is likely on news of a medical vaccine or cure .
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    A few things:

    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.
    2. Roads noticeably quieter this morning. Makes life easier for those of us who need to work not from home
    3. Talk up thread about interest rates and liquidity. They are going to have to implement a debt holiday. Lower interest rates does nothing if your business is drying up as people suspend their normal operations.

    You can keep going with a lower income - cut your outgoings! For both people and businesses a lot of outgoings are debt - mortgage, loans, capex etc. These aircraft that are about to be parked up won't be owned outright by the airlines. Most businesses rent, most people rent or pay a mortgage, then we have loans for so many things.

    If incomes are to drop through the floor then to avoid mass personal and business bankruptcy we need a debt holiday. Let the remaining liquid cash in circulation keep circulating not be repaid to the banks. Which means the government step in, float the banks off the rocks in exchange for a moratorium on all lending repayments until this is all over.

    Whats more this needs to happen worldwide. Big businesses are global, smaller businesses buy global. We can lock down our physical borders but the electronic movement of money is unaffected. Something that Bozza could suggest at the G7 whilst looking at that flying pig out the window...

    Skip the banking part, do it directly, more efficient and effective, reaches small business, sole traders, gig economy et al.

    Govt provides helicopter money of median wage to every adult in the UK
    Govt legislates to allow companies to suspend salaries for this period on condition that employees are not expected to work.
    Govt also legislates to allow employees of non essential firms to choose not to work and not be paid salary during this period, whilst protecting their right to return afterwards.
    If both employer and employee want to be carry on, then employee gets salary plus helicopter money.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603
    Charles said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    But will they change their rules on landing rights?

    For example, if the UK government nationalises IAG (which is a Spanish company) then it could lose its rights for domestic EU travel with Iberia. Which would not be good.

    But nationalising BA would undermine the entire business model for IAG and probably bankrupt Iberia.
    BA have been a pension scheme that happen to fly planes around for a while now. They have more retired pilots than active pilots on their payroll. This is a great opportunity to let them go bust and pick up the pieces as a new airline.
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    I am afraid I don't quite understand the timing aspect of locking things down here. Maybe I've missed something.

    Scenario 1: You lockdown earlier when 0.1% of the population have/had the virus.
    Scenario 2: You lockdown later when 1% of the population have/had the virus.

    In both cases you have 10 or so days where cases rise and then fall to a more manageable level.

    As I see it delaying just gets you to the same point eventually, but at a higher cost in terms of sickness and lives.
    Yes more people will (hopefully) have immunity at that point, but there is still 99% of the population left to infect, so I don't see how it reduces a second wave by much.

    To get enough people immune to slow the spread of the virus, this process would have to be repeated many times over (50 maybe?). I don't think this is the long term government policy.

    The only advantage with Scenario 2 I can understand is that people might be better prepared to change their behaviour long term as we'll be seeing a lot more deaths and hope to eventually get the infection rate under 1 that way.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    I do not see any logic in not extending the transition period. No-one - beyond the lunatic extremes - will begrudge an additional year, and it may even provide some kind of business boost. What we know for certain is that immigration into the UK is going to fall precipitously.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Alistair said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    This is the bit that is lacking. What is the strategy for a working age person with a chronic illness who has a school aged child and working spouse? Everyone locks themselves away?
    Exactly. And what happens if the working partner cannot work from home? No-one is going to want to lose their job at a time like this. Or should be expected to. And where is the at risk partner meant to go?

    People can only - will only - do the best they can given their circumstances. If the government wants them to do something which will harm them financially they need to provide compensation. An interest free loan is no bloody use if you have no job and no means of paying it back. It’s the debt which is the problem not the interest on it. The same applies to businesses.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    My view on the gym is that I'll stop going to the gym when I stop catching trains into central London and sharing a large office with hundreds of other people who have done exactly the same thing.

    That day may be quite soon now.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    This is the bit that is lacking. What is the strategy for a working age person with a chronic illness who has a school aged child and working spouse? Everyone locks themselves away?
    Exactly. And what happens if the working partner cannot work from home? No-one is going to want to lose their job at a time like this. Or should be expected to. And where is the at risk partner meant to go?

    People can only - will only - do the best they can given their circumstances. If the government wants them to do something which will harm them financially they need to provide compensation. An interest free loan is no bloody use if you have no job and no means of paying it back. It’s the debt which is the problem not the interest on it. The same applies to businesses.
    Helicopter money. Hong Kong gave every adult £1k (not sure if they have plans to repeat).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    75 year olds with no health issues are a pretty minor minority.
    I know plenty.
    Well enough to know they are on no meds at all, not for anything?

    "In the baseline examinations, subjects were found to have on average 2-3 diseases. During the follow-up the number of diseases and the proportion of people with co-morbidity increased in both age groups. Both men and women had on average 1-2 symptoms that caused them much trouble, and the number of such symptoms increased to some extent during the follow-up."

    Morbidity and disability in 75- and 80-year-old men and women. A five-year follow-up.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9241702
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    I do not see any logic in not extending the transition period. No-one - beyond the lunatic extremes - will begrudge an additional year, and it may even provide some kind of business boost. What we know for certain is that immigration into the UK is going to fall precipitously.

    You win today’s prize for commenting on the header!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2020

    A few things:

    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.
    2. Roads noticeably quieter this morning. Makes life easier for those of us who need to work not from home
    3. Talk up thread about interest rates and liquidity. They are going to have to implement a debt holiday. Lower interest rates does nothing if your business is drying up as people suspend their normal operations.

    You can keep going with a lower income - cut your outgoings! For both people and businesses a lot of outgoings are debt - mortgage, loans, capex etc. These aircraft that are about to be parked up won't be owned outright by the airlines. Most businesses rent, most people rent or pay a mortgage, then we have loans for so many things.

    If incomes are to drop through the floor then to avoid mass personal and business bankruptcy we need a debt holiday. Let the remaining liquid cash in circulation keep circulating not be repaid to the banks. Which means the government step in, float the banks off the rocks in exchange for a moratorium on all lending repayments until this is all over.

    Whats more this needs to happen worldwide. Big businesses are global, smaller businesses buy global. We can lock down our physical borders but the electronic movement of money is unaffected. Something that Bozza could suggest at the G7 whilst looking at that flying pig out the window...

    Skip the banking part, do it directly, more efficient and effective, reaches small business, sole traders, gig economy et al.

    Govt provides helicopter money of median wage to every adult in the UK
    Govt legislates to allow companies to suspend salaries for this period on condition that employees are not expected to work.
    Govt also legislates to allow employees of non essential firms to choose not to work and not be paid salary during this period, whilst protecting their right to return afterwards.
    If both employer and employee want to be carry on, then employee gets salary plus helicopter money.
    The logic for these kind of measures, particularly UBI, could become unanswerable, particularly if things are at the worse end of expectations.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    I am afraid I don't quite understand the timing aspect of locking things down here. Maybe I've missed something.

    Scenario 1: You lockdown earlier when 0.1% of the population have/had the virus.
    Scenario 2: You lockdown later when 1% of the population have/had the virus.

    In both cases you have 10 or so days where cases rise and then fall to a more manageable level.

    As I see it delaying just gets you to the same point eventually, but at a higher cost in terms of sickness and lives.
    Yes more people will (hopefully) have immunity at that point, but there is still 99% of the population left to infect, so I don't see how it reduces a second wave by much.

    To get enough people immune to slow the spread of the virus, this process would have to be repeated many times over (50 maybe?). I don't think this is the long term government policy.

    The only advantage with Scenario 2 I can understand is that people might be better prepared to change their behaviour long term as we'll be seeing a lot more deaths and hope to eventually get the infection rate under 1 that way.

    You don't seem to have a better option.

    You are missing that the virus is spreading all the time, and wont stop during a lockdown. And also that, if we succeed in keeping the elderly and vulnerable mostly out of harms way, the rate of spread could be quicker than in your estimates without overwhelming health services.

    Every % of the population with immunity slows its subsequent spread. And is also a chunk of people who can resume economic activity.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    glw said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    The EU might as well suspend the rules as a whole now, rather than allowing specific exemptions, as no country is going to pay any attention to the rules as they try to stop their own economy from collapsing.
    It is an unlikely hope but this crisis will see the EU change to a trading block onlyn and that all EU countries could be part of without the political union
    Why are you doing this weird linking of the Coronavirus crisis to Brexit? It just sounds very peculiar. Something to do with Boris and a ‘Falklands Moment’ I take it.
    Not linking it to brexit.

    Change is coming.

    The EU are facing enormous strains as nations fight to defend their own economies unilaterally

    Are we likely to avoid the same enormous strains? I think not.

    There may well be stresses that push the EU to the limit from individual national interests, conversely there might be a safety in numbers element too as the rebuilding begins.

    Only internaitonal action is going to have a chance of getting us through this economically. Germany will have to open the purse strings in Europe. We will need to be a part fo the action. There is an opportunity here if our leaders are far-sighted enough to take it.

  • I do not see any logic in not extending the transition period. No-one - beyond the lunatic extremes - will begrudge an additional year, and it may even provide some kind of business boost. What we know for certain is that immigration into the UK is going to fall precipitously.

    Both parties are moving closer. The EU "we're staying together" piece is being stress tested to destruction. Whilst they will all be mates I'd be surprised if they go back to status quo ante. The UK "down with experts" we will cope with disruption" is being tested now and people don't like it...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    My view on the gym is that I'll stop going to the gym when I stop catching trains into central London and sharing a large office with hundreds of other people who have done exactly the same thing.

    That day may be quite soon now.

    Does covid 19 transmit in sweat? I assume it can and that seems a massive difference to me between the two scenarios. Some people on a treadmill are also probably exhaling small amounts of spittle similar to coughing.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    Cyclefree said:

    In response to @IanB2 (fpt): “And that we don’t have Blue Peter for ideas as to what to make out of all the tubes.”

    Loo roll tubes are perfect for planting sweet pea seedlings, which have long roots. So plant your seeds then when they have one or two leaves and are seedlings fill your empty loo roll tubes with soil and transfer your seedlings. As soon as they grow into healthy young plants then you can transfer them outside or into a pot.

    Choose a variety that is scented and remember to pick the flowers as soon as they appear - for vases in the home. That way the plant won’t turn to seed and you’ll have beautiful flowers all summer long.

    You could stack them one on top of the other to make homemade Tuley tubes.
    A bit too narrow for most young saplings I think.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Crossover:

    "Deaths outside China have risen to 3,241, while there have been 3,208 deaths in China."
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    A few things:

    1. Gym noticeably quieter this morning with fewer pensioners.
    2. Roads noticeably quieter this morning. Makes life easier for those of us who need to work not from home
    3. Talk up thread about interest rates and liquidity. They are going to have to implement a debt holiday. Lower interest rates does nothing if your business is drying up as people suspend their normal operations.

    You can keep going with a lower income - cut your outgoings! For both people and businesses a lot of outgoings are debt - mortgage, loans, capex etc. These aircraft that are about to be parked up won't be owned outright by the airlines. Most businesses rent, most people rent or pay a mortgage, then we have loans for so many things.

    If incomes are to drop through the floor then to avoid mass personal and business bankruptcy we need a debt holiday. Let the remaining liquid cash in circulation keep circulating not be repaid to the banks. Which means the government step in, float the banks off the rocks in exchange for a moratorium on all lending repayments until this is all over.

    Whats more this needs to happen worldwide. Big businesses are global, smaller businesses buy global. We can lock down our physical borders but the electronic movement of money is unaffected. Something that Bozza could suggest at the G7 whilst looking at that flying pig out the window...

    Skip the banking part, do it directly, more efficient and effective, reaches small business, sole traders, gig economy et al.

    Govt provides helicopter money of median wage to every adult in the UK
    Govt legislates to allow companies to suspend salaries for this period on condition that employees are not expected to work.
    Govt also legislates to allow employees of non essential firms to choose not to work and not be paid salary during this period, whilst protecting their right to return afterwards.
    If both employer and employee want to be carry on, then employee gets salary plus helicopter money.
    The logic for these kind of measures, particularly UBI, could become unanswerable, particularly if things are at the worse end of expectations.
    I dont understand why anyone imagines lending it through banks is better. Last time 90% went to inflating real estate and 10% to the real economy (ignoring the bankers bonuses).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    I do not see any logic in not extending the transition period. No-one - beyond the lunatic extremes - will begrudge an additional year, and it may even provide some kind of business boost. What we know for certain is that immigration into the UK is going to fall precipitously.

    Both parties are moving closer. The EU "we're staying together" piece is being stress tested to destruction. Whilst they will all be mates I'd be surprised if they go back to status quo ante. The UK "down with experts" we will cope with disruption" is being tested now and people don't like it...
    Hang on, I thought the government was following the advice of the experts?

    Oh, the wrong experts...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317

    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    This is the bit that is lacking. What is the strategy for a working age person with a chronic illness who has a school aged child and working spouse? Everyone locks themselves away?
    Exactly. And what happens if the working partner cannot work from home? No-one is going to want to lose their job at a time like this. Or should be expected to. And where is the at risk partner meant to go?

    People can only - will only - do the best they can given their circumstances. If the government wants them to do something which will harm them financially they need to provide compensation. An interest free loan is no bloody use if you have no job and no means of paying it back. It’s the debt which is the problem not the interest on it. The same applies to businesses.
    Helicopter money. Hong Kong gave every adult £1k (not sure if they have plans to repeat).
    Agreed. It is the subject of my next (already written) header.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    My view on the gym is that I'll stop going to the gym when I stop catching trains into central London and sharing a large office with hundreds of other people who have done exactly the same thing.

    That day may be quite soon now.

    Does covid 19 transmit in sweat? I assume it can and that seems a massive difference to me between the two scenarios. Some people on a treadmill are also probably exhaling small amounts of spittle similar to coughing.
    Sweat doesn't contain any viruses.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    As I commented on the last thread and the possible ultimate nationalisation of BA this crisis will drive a 'coach and horses' through the EU state aid rules

    But will they change their rules on landing rights?

    For example, if the UK government nationalises IAG (which is a Spanish company) then it could lose its rights for domestic EU travel with Iberia. Which would not be good.

    But nationalising BA would undermine the entire business model for IAG and probably bankrupt Iberia.
    BA have been a pension scheme that happen to fly planes around for a while now. They have more retired pilots than active pilots on their payroll. This is a great opportunity to let them go bust and pick up the pieces as a new airline.
    Which requires the state taking over the pension scheme
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. CD13, to be fair, Douglas Alexander (remember him? Back when Labour was left wing without being utterly crackers) has been very reasonable, wishing all the best for Sturgeon and Johnson to get this right.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Just took my daughter to school. My son* is off with a bad ankle (ligaments).

    The streets are quieter than normal. This is the first time I've thought it's looked quiet out there. Spoke to my (lovely) 80 year old neighbour Tony when I got back. He's very concerned because of his bad chest.

    *A&E was okay yesterday. He was in and out within a couple of hours. No signs of any virus-related drama at the hospital. Yet.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    IanB2 said:

    My view on the gym is that I'll stop going to the gym when I stop catching trains into central London and sharing a large office with hundreds of other people who have done exactly the same thing.

    That day may be quite soon now.

    Does covid 19 transmit in sweat? I assume it can and that seems a massive difference to me between the two scenarios. Some people on a treadmill are also probably exhaling small amounts of spittle similar to coughing.
    Sweat doesn't contain any viruses.
    In which case fears of the gym are probably overblown. On average they should be better ventilated than public transport or offices. Carrying surface wipes and hand gel probably sufficient.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    The border closures are emergency measures. Just like closing schools. No serious person is claiming this is the end of FOM, just as no one is claiming a 9 year old who is currently off school will not get an education.
    It shows flexibilty as could have been given to Cameron before the referendum or May or Boris after, especially as we are still owed the transition controls Blair refused to impose
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    I can’t see how any of this can be ‘policed’. Are we going to be issued a hotline number to grass anyone we see in public with grey hair and wrinkles?

    I expect it to be voluntary. But still complied with by most people out of a mix of fear and duty.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that despite keeping free movement open being such a key issue for the EU to give the UK a very good deal, Austria and Germany have now closed their borders post Covid 19, as has Poland

    Free movement and border control are not the same thing. Nobody is questioning the residency rights of EU citizens anywhere but here.
    Are we evicting EU citizens? No
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Bell-end of the day so far....David Blunkett, isolating over 70s is ageist against us a fit and healthy ones.

    That's fine, but those over 70 who refuse to isolate will not receive medical assistance if they succumb to the virus. I mean, we're only buggering the national economy to make sure the over 70's don't all die horrible deaths. It's not like they have any reason to be grateful or anything....
    I think perhaps the more important point that is being lost is that people under that age who have certain underlying health issues should be taking similar measures. A fit 75 year old with no health issue is probably at less risk than a 30 year old with a suppressed immune system, for instance.

    So the message should not simply focus on age but also on those with health conditions which put them at higher risk, regardless of age.
    You can police a quarantine based on age. How are you supposed to do so for health conditions? You just have to hope that people who are already ill are sufficiently sensible, or sufficiently fearful, to do the right thing
    I can’t see how any of this can be ‘policed’. Are we going to be issued a hotline number to grass anyone we see in public with grey hair and wrinkles?
    To be fair, it'll mostly be self policing, assuming we arrive at the coercive isolation policy, or whatever its called. Brits are generally law abiding, especially the older ones. And people will start to stare if they see an obvious oldie wandering around, and there's nothing the British fear more than being stared at.

    Plus a few fines publicised in the newspapers - as Spain is doing - will encourage the others.
  • Looking out of the window at work, the patch seems as busy as usual. Mind you, we're in a relatively poor neighbourhood, surrounded by a council estate so probably not much scope for home working. The supermarket over the road looks busy. From my vantage point, the school run seemed normal and the usual rush hour gridlock is in place. Seems like the phony war stage to me.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    HYUFD said:
    Fergusan in STimes said some economists think that the way italians are in social settings may be a major factor. They are more sociable, interact at close quarters more etc etc.
This discussion has been closed.