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  • glwglw Posts: 10,516
    DavidL said:

    China (usual do you believe the figures issue) are currently suffering 56 cases per million people in total. The equivalent number for the UK would be 3,640 cases in total. I get the impression we are waiting to get somewhere near that figure before we act.

    One reason to believe the Chinese figures is that I've not seen anyone report that the US government doubts them. To the best of my knowledge there have been no "sources in the intelligence community say" type of stories. And I'm sure Trump's adminstration would love to say that China is lying.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,618
    edited March 2020

    glw said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    Just total fatalism from our Western leaders. 60% of China? What rubbish.

    Something is seriously wrong with the decision making here.
    It's hard to reconcile China closing temporary hospitals, as though the worst is over or at least they can take a breather, with forecasts of it eventually hitting such high numbers.
    The Chinese do seem very confident at the moment. They're not only closing temporary hospitals, but donating medical equipment to the west.
    I would guess the Chinese have definitely fiddled the figures and it was a hell of a lot more, and probably still have a lot more cases than reporting...but have got on top of it and now into the propaganda phase of we won the war because of the great leader, the party and the unity of the Chinese population.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,034
    edited March 2020

    DavidL said:


    You get the impression that a lot of sensible things are being done (cancellations, restricted travel, more homeworking, less international travel, etc) despite the government instead of at its instance.

    This is the infuriating thing. People *want* to do the right thing. But there are still a bunch of people out there who won't take it seriously until enough people have died to make it hard for a lot of people to start working from home or whatever in case they're thought badly of by their boss. They just need everybody to be told it's what they should be doing.

    Why is your government so shit?
    There appears to be groupthink among the advisers. They've decided that the virus can't be stopped, so instead of trying to stop the virus they're going to try to time the peak of the outbreak to be optimal. So they don't want us to be too successful in stopping the virus.

    It's a bizarre combination of deliberate helplessness and an arrogance of remaining in control.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    edited March 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    There's a certain irony here. The new Italian leadership was supposed to be very US (and particularly Trump) friendly.

    But Italy needs both money and help.

    The US (and the EU) is leaving the field, and China is filling the void.

    That is the measure of Trump's ultimate achievement. He has allowed the western alliance to untangle, to nobody but China's benefit.
    Trump, or Mr Brexit, as he styled himself while campaigning for the Presidency.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,392
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    To give perspective, the next 2 months will be horrible, but lockdowns work. China put on just 20 new cases today, 17 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1237483652398878725?s=19

    I am really not sure I get this wait till things get much worse before the lockdown. The idea that people are going to get bored or fed up seems, well, a bit far fetched, especially as it clearly won't stop the dying.

    The indications from China, SK, Singapore, Japan and some others is that hyper aggressive approaches of various kinds work and produce a much smaller peak than we might otherwise expect.

    I have no doubt people are doing their best and working very hard at this but have we got it right? I am not sure.
    If no further policy change tomorrow then it's time to get the shotgun and head for the woods.
    I have a choice between a hidden apartment in a posh Welsh seaside village or a primitive croft on Harris.

    The latter is probably safer but God it would be tough.
    Two weeks on Harris and you will be begging for the virus.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263
    rcs1000 said:

    There's a certain irony here. The new Italian leadership was supposed to be very US (and particularly Trump) friendly.

    But Italy needs both money and help.

    The US (and the EU) is leaving the field, and China is filling the void.

    That is the measure of Trump's ultimate achievement. He has allowed the western alliance to untangle, to nobody but China's benefit.
    I'm not sure there will be any gratitude towards China considering where the problem originated.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited March 2020
    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    To give perspective, the next 2 months will be horrible, but lockdowns work. China put on just 20 new cases today, 17 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1237483652398878725?s=19

    I am really not sure I get this wait till things get much worse before the lockdown. The idea that people are going to get bored or fed up seems, well, a bit far fetched, especially as it clearly won't stop the dying.

    The indications from China, SK, Singapore, Japan and some others is that hyper aggressive approaches of various kinds work and produce a much smaller peak than we might otherwise expect.

    I have no doubt people are doing their best and working very hard at this but have we got it right? I am not sure.
    If no further policy change tomorrow then it's time to get the shotgun and head for the woods.
    I have a choice between a hidden apartment in a posh Welsh seaside village or a primitive croft on Harris.

    The latter is probably safer but God it would be tough.
    Hebrides bloody depressing and the nearest sensible hospital is a long helicopter trip away. Wales sounds like The Prisoner.

    Harris gin is very good, mind.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320

    glw said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    Just total fatalism from our Western leaders. 60% of China? What rubbish.

    Something is seriously wrong with the decision making here.
    It's hard to reconcile China closing temporary hospitals, as though the worst is over or at least they can take a breather, with forecasts of it eventually hitting such high numbers.
    The Chinese do seem very confident at the moment. They're not only closing temporary hospitals, but donating medical equipment to the west.
    ANECDOTE ALERT

    friend I was with at Cheltenham said he uses Chinese suppliers and that apart from Wuhan itself all other factories are open and producing.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,796

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    To give perspective, the next 2 months will be horrible, but lockdowns work. China put on just 20 new cases today, 17 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1237483652398878725?s=19

    I am really not sure I get this wait till things get much worse before the lockdown. The idea that people are going to get bored or fed up seems, well, a bit far fetched, especially as it clearly won't stop the dying.

    The indications from China, SK, Singapore, Japan and some others is that hyper aggressive approaches of various kinds work and produce a much smaller peak than we might otherwise expect.

    I have no doubt people are doing their best and working very hard at this but have we got it right? I am not sure.
    I’m of your view David. Indeed so are many companies in London which have flipped to 80-100% homeworking. It needs to happen more widely.
    You get the impression that a lot of sensible things are being done (cancellations, restricted travel, more homeworking, less international travel, etc) despite the government instead of at its instance.
    Indeed so, that’s exactly the case David. Our company moved to an 80% remote model today and I have heard of several others today doing similarly.
    Unfortunately my employer, despite being extremely large and extremely high risk, is waiting on government recommendations.

    People are asking if I can attend a large event in two weeks time?

    Normalcy bias for real.
    Sorry, I missed your reply earlier. Yes, this is precisely the sort of case I’m talking about. There are hundreds more of them.
  • News from Italy tonight is horrible with fighting breaking out
  • TOPPING said:

    glw said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    Just total fatalism from our Western leaders. 60% of China? What rubbish.

    Something is seriously wrong with the decision making here.
    It's hard to reconcile China closing temporary hospitals, as though the worst is over or at least they can take a breather, with forecasts of it eventually hitting such high numbers.
    The Chinese do seem very confident at the moment. They're not only closing temporary hospitals, but donating medical equipment to the west.
    ANECDOTE ALERT

    friend I was with at Cheltenham said he uses Chinese suppliers and that apart from Wuhan itself all other factories are open and producing.
    Maybe they really have got on top of the virus ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,835
    IshmaelZ said:

    eadric said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    To give perspective, the next 2 months will be horrible, but lockdowns work. China put on just 20 new cases today, 17 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1237483652398878725?s=19

    I am really not sure I get this wait till things get much worse before the lockdown. The idea that people are going to get bored or fed up seems, well, a bit far fetched, especially as it clearly won't stop the dying.

    The indications from China, SK, Singapore, Japan and some others is that hyper aggressive approaches of various kinds work and produce a much smaller peak than we might otherwise expect.

    I have no doubt people are doing their best and working very hard at this but have we got it right? I am not sure.
    If no further policy change tomorrow then it's time to get the shotgun and head for the woods.
    I have a choice between a hidden apartment in a posh Welsh seaside village or a primitive croft on Harris.

    The latter is probably safer but God it would be tough.
    Hebrides bloody depressing and the nearest sensible hospital is a long helicopter trip away. Wales sounds like The Prisoner.

    Harris gin is very good, mind.
    And the virus will still be in London, waiting, when you eventually come home.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,584
    I think the SyFy channel are taking the piss this evening. Their film offering is …

    12 Monkeys
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320
    edited March 2020
    ANECDOTE ALERT II

    Bumped into Rich Ricci. Chacun Pour Soi will win tomorrow.

    DYOR blah blah this was from the (owner of the) horse's mouth.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,516

    I would guess the Chinese have definitely fiddled the figures and it was a hell of a lot more, and probably still have a lot more cases than reporting...but have got on top of it and now into the propaganda phase of we won the war because of the great leader, the party and the unity of the Chinese population.

    I could believe it being two to three times as bad, maybe even 10 times, and China being able to hide it. But if only 1% of China's population had it there ought to be nearly 14 million cases, and somewhere over 100,000 deaths. I find it hard to believe China could hide that and nobody outside of the country being aware.

    At 1% — over 100 times the cases that are currently claimed — China would still be the very start of the epidemic if you believe the scenarios being proposed, and yet China claims to be closing hospitals and removing restrictions on travel.

    Something doesn't add up, either China is deceiving the whole world, or the rest of the world, bar perhaps South Korea, are not paying due attention.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    No, the people he's describing aren't. I am not condoning using Twitter idiots to try and caricature your opponents. But I've seen repeated remainers on Twitter, and one on Any Answers trying to delay Brexit using Coronavirus. So it's clearly not just Leavers who can be 'low information'.
    How can you delay something that has already happened?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,172

    DavidL said:


    You get the impression that a lot of sensible things are being done (cancellations, restricted travel, more homeworking, less international travel, etc) despite the government instead of at its instance.

    This is the infuriating thing. People *want* to do the right thing. But there are still a bunch of people out there who won't take it seriously until enough people have died to make it hard for a lot of people to start working from home or whatever in case they're thought badly of by their boss. They just need everybody to be told it's what they should be doing.

    Why is your government so shit?
    There appears to be groupthink among the advisers. They've decided that the virus can't be stopped, so instead of trying to stop the virus they're going to try to time the peak of the outbreak to be optimal. So they don't want us to be too successful in stopping the virus.

    It's a bizarre combination of deliberate helplessness and an arrogance of remaining in control.
    What was sensible caution a week or so back has become inertia.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    Depends on the timescale surely? There is thinking that there could be two or three waves of this before it just becomes a seasonal problem.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,796

    Unfortunately my employer, despite being extremely large and extremely high risk, is waiting on government recommendations.

    Yes, this is what concerns me. There's a lot of "judge things for yourself", "you're best placed to assess your own risks", "people can look at the information and make their own decisions" kind of attitude from authorities at the moment. This applies in spades to travel advice as well as to working from home and various other issues.

    In reality we are largely not well-placed to make decisions because what's going on is uncertain and the government are the ones with the best information and advice (and even they lack certainty!). Government is choosing, presumably for carefully considered reasons, not to release all of the information and advice they know - for example I presume their caution in revealing their "most likely" scenario, rather than their "worst case" one, is that they want people to take this thing seriously. But sometimes the rest of us would like a tip in the right direction.

    I fear decision-making in a lot of companies and organisations is very much "we'll do it when we get officially prodded to do it", and that may be exacerbated by factors like nobody wanting to take a hit from being first-mover in their sector. As individuals we have a very substantial degree of freedom in this country (I'm especially lucky being self-employed and able to do most of my work remotely anyway) but important decisions for employees are often largely in the hands of their managers.
    Excellent post. Exactly right.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,252
    edited March 2020
    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,516
    eadric said:

    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.

    People will eventually demand Chinese style government, and happily wave goodbye to liberal democracy, when they believe it will make them wealthier and stop their families dying of the plague.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320
    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    To give perspective, the next 2 months will be horrible, but lockdowns work. China put on just 20 new cases today, 17 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1237483652398878725?s=19

    I am really not sure I get this wait till things get much worse before the lockdown. The idea that people are going to get bored or fed up seems, well, a bit far fetched, especially as it clearly won't stop the dying.

    The indications from China, SK, Singapore, Japan and some others is that hyper aggressive approaches of various kinds work and produce a much smaller peak than we might otherwise expect.

    I have no doubt people are doing their best and working very hard at this but have we got it right? I am not sure.
    I’m of your view David. Indeed so are many companies in London which have flipped to 80-100% homeworking. It needs to happen more widely.
    You get the impression that a lot of sensible things are being done (cancellations, restricted travel, more homeworking, less international travel, etc) despite the government instead of at its instance.
    I've generally been satisfied with Hancock's performance at a very difficult time though part of me wonders if Hunt would have been a safer pair of hands.

    But his wishy-washy answers to anything involving home-working, and a couple of other relatively low-cost individual or business-led actions, have been unconvincing I think. There is some stuff that is only going to happen at full tilt e.g. at smaller firms (rather than the better-prepared MNCs which already have secure alternative locations etc) when government gives a more positive green or red light. For example "now's a time when it would be good to take action X if you can, even if right now we're not dictating that you absolutely must; moreover, even if you decide not to go ahead with it right now, you really need to get prepared and investigate how you will do it soon, because we may be pushing it firmly in the near future".
    This.
    Social distancing well short of draconian lockdowns has a chance of working when the numbers are as low as they currently are. I get the feeling the government are being somewhat tardy in their advice.

    I understand the difficulty, as large scale following of such advice is going to kill retail and leisure business for a period of time. But if they don’t act that is going to happen in any event.
    Too slow. It's immensely frustrating.
    Government following not leading.

    Two things which ought to be possible without unacceptable costs are ramping up the official social distancing advice, and greatly increasing the rate of testing.
    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.
    Brilliant post. Whatever this is for I'm sure the product will be excellent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,392
    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    Its utter tosh. Probably out by a factor of 100 (which will be bad enough).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    glw said:

    I would guess the Chinese have definitely fiddled the figures and it was a hell of a lot more, and probably still have a lot more cases than reporting...but have got on top of it and now into the propaganda phase of we won the war because of the great leader, the party and the unity of the Chinese population.

    I could believe it being two to three times as bad, maybe even 10 times, and China being able to hide it. But if only 1% of China's population had it there ought to be nearly 14 million cases, and somewhere over 100,000 deaths. I find it hard to believe China could hide that and nobody outside of the country being aware.

    At 1% — over 100 times the cases that are currently claimed — China would still be the very start of the epidemic if you believe the scenarios being proposed, and yet China claims to be closing hospitals and removing restrictions on travel.

    Something doesn't add up, either China is deceiving the whole world, or the rest of the world, bar perhaps South Korea, are not paying due attention.
    China of course is twice the land area of the eu, and there's places there twice as far from Wuhan as London is from Milan. So perhaps it just hasn't spread yet.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    The well-known Scandinavian-based music streaming company I work for has just mandated WFH for the next 14 days.
  • eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    eadric said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    To give perspective, the next 2 months will be horrible, but lockdowns work. China put on just 20 new cases today, 17 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1237483652398878725?s=19

    I am really not sure I get this wait till things get much worse before the lockdown. The idea that people are going to get bored or fed up seems, well, a bit far fetched, especially as it clearly won't stop the dying.

    The indications from China, SK, Singapore, Japan and some others is that hyper aggressive approaches of various kinds work and produce a much smaller peak than we might otherwise expect.

    I have no doubt people are doing their best and working very hard at this but have we got it right? I am not sure.
    I’m of your view David. Indeed so are many companies in London which have flipped to 80-100% homeworking. It needs to happen more widely.
    You get the impression that a lot of sensible things are being done (cancellations, restricted travel, more homeworking, less international travel, etc) despite the government instead of at its instance.
    I've generally been satisfied with Hancock's performance at a very difficult time though part of me wonders if Hunt would have been a safer pair of hands.

    But his wishy-washy answers to anything involving home-working, and a couple of other relatively low-cost individual or business-led actions, have been unconvincing I think. There is some stuff that is only going to happen at full tilt e.g. at smaller firms (rather than the better-prepared MNCs which already have secure alternative locations etc) when government gives a more positive green or red light. For example "now's a time when it would be good to take action X if you can, even if right now we're not dictating that you absolutely must; moreover, even if you decide not to go ahead with it right now, you really need to get prepared and investigate how you will do it soon, because we may be pushing it firmly in the near future".
    This.
    Social distancing well short of draconian lockdowns has a chance of working when the numbers are as low as they currently are. I get the feeling the government are being somewhat tardy in their advice.

    I understand the difficulty, as large scale following of such advice is going to kill retail and leisure business for a period of time. But if they don’t act that is going to happen in any event.
    Too slow. It's immensely frustrating.
    Government following not leading.

    Two things which ought to be possible without unacceptable costs are ramping up the official social distancing advice, and greatly increasing the rate of testing.
    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.
    Yeah but then we'd look like we care about stuff and we can't be having that.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,516
    edited March 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    China of course is twice the land area of the eu, and there's places there twice as far from Wuhan as London is from Milan. So perhaps it just hasn't spread yet.

    It has spread, but if you believe the Chinese government NOT within China to the same degree that we are seeing elsewhere.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,618
    edited March 2020
    The Differences Between the Coronavirus and the Spanish Flu

    https://youtu.be/B6IgMdsZHbM
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,172
    glw said:

    I would guess the Chinese have definitely fiddled the figures and it was a hell of a lot more, and probably still have a lot more cases than reporting...but have got on top of it and now into the propaganda phase of we won the war because of the great leader, the party and the unity of the Chinese population.

    I could believe it being two to three times as bad, maybe even 10 times, and China being able to hide it. But if only 1% of China's population had it there ought to be nearly 14 million cases, and somewhere over 100,000 deaths. I find it hard to believe China could hide that and nobody outside of the country being aware.

    At 1% — over 100 times the cases that are currently claimed — China would still be the very start of the epidemic if you believe the scenarios being proposed, and yet China claims to be closing hospitals and removing restrictions on travel.

    Something doesn't add up, either China is deceiving the whole world, or the rest of the world, bar perhaps South Korea, are not paying due attention.
    Such a level of deceit, undetected, is highly unlikely.
    And in any event, it’s not that the Chinese leadership isn’t entirely capable of such a thing; it’s just hard to see the point in the current circumstances.
  • eadric said:
    I think the government should be changing its policy sooner rather than later.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,392
    glw said:

    DavidL said:

    China (usual do you believe the figures issue) are currently suffering 56 cases per million people in total. The equivalent number for the UK would be 3,640 cases in total. I get the impression we are waiting to get somewhere near that figure before we act.

    One reason to believe the Chinese figures is that I've not seen anyone report that the US government doubts them. To the best of my knowledge there have been no "sources in the intelligence community say" type of stories. And I'm sure Trump's adminstration would love to say that China is lying.
    Would he though. When he is working on the rather excellent policy of sticking his fingers in his ears and saying, "I can't hear you"? Is it in his interests to admit that this virus that is just going to go away is even worse?

    OTOH the WHO seemed convinced.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    *require critical care* not just be infected.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,267
    eadric said:
    Apply them too widely and you won't be able to enforce it. Good thing that Italy hasn't put the entire country under quarantine.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,392

    eadric said:
    I think the government should be changing its policy sooner rather than later.
    Tomorrow would be good.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,387
    I think when I get back home tomorrow it is time to WFH every day and minimise leaving the house.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320
    eadric said:

    News from Italy tonight is horrible with fighting breaking out

    Civil disorder is inevitable. It's one reason why I am getting out of London
    Bravo!
  • eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    eadric said:

    glw said:

    eadric said:

    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.

    People will eventually demand Chinese style government, and happily wave goodbye to liberal democracy, when they believe it will make them wealthier and stop their families dying of the plague.
    As I've been saying on PB for a while, the vast majority of people would far rather live in Singapore than anywhere else.

    Good healthcare, great economy, clever government, nice shopping, lovely food, not so much individual freedom, but individual freedom, it turns out, means you die of plague
    Oppressively hot and somewhat creepy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,172
    eadric said:

    glw said:

    eadric said:

    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.

    People will eventually demand Chinese style government, and happily wave goodbye to liberal democracy, when they believe it will make them wealthier and stop their families dying of the plague.
    As I've been saying on PB for a while, the vast majority of people would far rather live in Singapore than anywhere else...
    Would be bloody crowded.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,516
    edited March 2020
    DavidL said:

    glw said:

    DavidL said:

    China (usual do you believe the figures issue) are currently suffering 56 cases per million people in total. The equivalent number for the UK would be 3,640 cases in total. I get the impression we are waiting to get somewhere near that figure before we act.

    One reason to believe the Chinese figures is that I've not seen anyone report that the US government doubts them. To the best of my knowledge there have been no "sources in the intelligence community say" type of stories. And I'm sure Trump's adminstration would love to say that China is lying.
    Would he though. When he is working on the rather excellent policy of sticking his fingers in his ears and saying, "I can't hear you"? Is it in his interests to admit that this virus that is just going to go away is even worse?

    OTOH the WHO seemed convinced.
    WHO do seem to believe China, but as to my point it doesn't really matter what Trump says, if the the intelligence community believed China was misleading the world I'm sure it would have leaked by now. Stuff leaks all the time, I can't see why this would be different.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    *require critical care* not just be infected.
    Thanks for the clarification but 58 million Germans infected is another matter
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    edited March 2020

    I think when I get back home tomorrow it is time to WFH every day and minimise leaving the house.


    I braved my GP's surgery yesterday. Seemed very quiet to me. Only three of us in the waiting room at a peak, just after school, hour.

    He wanted a non-urgent blood test.

    I think I'll wait a week or so and see where we are headed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,172
    TOPPING said:

    eadric said:

    News from Italy tonight is horrible with fighting breaking out

    Civil disorder is inevitable. It's one reason why I am getting out of London
    Bravo!
    Certain things are indeed inevitable...
  • They're obviously expecting an Italian-style hit to the economy.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,769
    RobD said:


    Perhaps the effect is so small at the moment that it's not worth it? They spent a lot of the previous press conference going on about how timing the response is critical.

    Why do you need to time *working from home where practical*? You do it until you don't need to do it any more.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,387
    Jonathan said:

    eadric said:

    glw said:

    eadric said:

    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.

    People will eventually demand Chinese style government, and happily wave goodbye to liberal democracy, when they believe it will make them wealthier and stop their families dying of the plague.
    As I've been saying on PB for a while, the vast majority of people would far rather live in Singapore than anywhere else.

    Good healthcare, great economy, clever government, nice shopping, lovely food, not so much individual freedom, but individual freedom, it turns out, means you die of plague
    Oppressively hot and somewhat creepy.
    Singapore or eadric?

    Night all.
  • eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,504
    Another slight improvement in the NW Europe mortality figures.

    Incl. Germany: 0.32
    Excl. Germany: 0.45

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GvO77Q1O49d0m4lQdBNdus3H8wdf3s-vLPE8c4cntsI/edit#gid=0
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    DavidL said:

    eadric said:
    I think the government should be changing its policy sooner rather than later.
    Tomorrow would be good.
    Doubt it. The Budget is tomorrow. More likely either a) Thursday, if the papers have spotted some absolute fuckup, such as a tax on white vans or pasties or owners of football scarves. Or b) Friday.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,677

    I think when I get back home tomorrow it is time to WFH every day and minimise leaving the house.

    At some point this week I'm going to have a difficult conversation with my boss about why I'm not travelling 100 miles there and back for a small celebratory team lunch. It's already technically against corporate guidance but...
  • eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
    Are you suggesting that the political leadership of the country stays silent about the impending crisis?
    She had refrained from comment thus far, largely.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,172
    eadric said:
    That is brutal.

    This perhaps goes some way to explain the numbers ?
    “ The health ministry says the average age of deaths from the coronavirus is 81.4 years.”
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    eadric said:

    News from Italy tonight is horrible with fighting breaking out

    Civil disorder is inevitable. It's one reason why I am getting out of London
    Bravo!
    Certain things are indeed inevitable...
    My $0.02? He's doing it as an academic exercise to see what reaction he gets. He might then write it all up or if not just get some kind of satisfaction from it.

    There's nowt as queer as folk.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Nigelb said:

    eadric said:
    That is brutal.

    This perhaps goes some way to explain the numbers ?
    “ The health ministry says the average age of deaths from the coronavirus is 81.4 years.”
    Old people sharing communion cups for weeks....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,392

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:
    I think the government should be changing its policy sooner rather than later.
    Tomorrow would be good.
    Doubt it. The Budget is tomorrow. More likely either a) Thursday, if the papers have spotted some absolute fuckup, such as a tax on white vans or pasties or owners of football scarves. Or b) Friday.
    I think (hope) that the budget will be a part of a larger strategy announced at the COBRA meeting tomorrow. We are at stage 2, this is what we need to do, this is how we are going to pay for it.

    Just my usual sunny optimism shining through.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,252
    edited March 2020

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
    Are you suggesting that the political leadership of the country stays silent about the impending crisis?
    She had refrained from comment thus far, largely.
    She already caused chaos with her open invitation to migrants when prudence would have been wise, so the same with this
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Foss said:

    I think when I get back home tomorrow it is time to WFH every day and minimise leaving the house.

    At some point this week I'm going to have a difficult conversation with my boss about why I'm not travelling 100 miles there and back for a small celebratory team lunch. It's already technically against corporate guidance but...
    If only you had a government who could help you with that discussion by switching the defaults towards WFH / no unnecessary meetings in person.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,835
    Nigelb said:

    eadric said:
    That is brutal.

    This perhaps goes some way to explain the numbers ?
    “ The health ministry says the average age of deaths from the coronavirus is 81.4 years.”
    And, so far, in the US
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,796

    RobD said:


    Perhaps the effect is so small at the moment that it's not worth it? They spent a lot of the previous press conference going on about how timing the response is critical.

    Why do you need to time *working from home where practical*? You do it until you don't need to do it any more.
    Exactly.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,504
    60,000 at Cheltenham racecourse today. Brave or stupid?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
    Are you suggesting that the political leadership of the country stays silent about the impending crisis?
    She had refrained from comment thus far, largely.
    She already caused chaos with her open invitation to migrants when prudence would have been wise, so the same with this
    Why did her open invitation to migrants cause chaos?

    Did your life become more chaotic?
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    eadric said:

    News from Italy tonight is horrible with fighting breaking out

    Civil disorder is inevitable. It's one reason why I am getting out of London
    Bravo!
    Certain things are indeed inevitable...
    My $0.02? He's doing it as an academic exercise to see what reaction he gets. He might then write it all up or if not just get some kind of satisfaction from it.

    There's nowt as queer as folk.
    Have I missed something with the London reference?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,669
    edited March 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    60,000 at Cheltenham racecourse today. Brave or stupid?

    The virus doesn't like the open air , supposedly.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,267
    edited March 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    Another slight improvement in the NW Europe mortality figures.

    Incl. Germany: 0.32
    Excl. Germany: 0.45

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GvO71O49d0m4lQdBNdus3H8wdf3s-vLPE8c4cntsI/edit#gid=0

    Jesus. Why the hell are you doing this? Can you please give me your rationale?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,487
    BREAKING Nadine Dorries health minister has coronavirus
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
    Are you suggesting that the political leadership of the country stays silent about the impending crisis?
    She had refrained from comment thus far, largely.
    She already caused chaos with her open invitation to migrants when prudence would have been wise, so the same with this
    Merkel is a scientist. She almost certainly has more direct insight than Trump, Johnson et al. and consequently may not be able to wrap it in bullshit to quite the same degree.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,504
    Nigelb said:

    eadric said:
    That is brutal.

    This perhaps goes some way to explain the numbers ?
    “ The health ministry says the average age of deaths from the coronavirus is 81.4 years.”
    8% in Lombardy and 0.13% in Germany.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Oh no.
  • TOPPING said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
    Are you suggesting that the political leadership of the country stays silent about the impending crisis?
    She had refrained from comment thus far, largely.
    She already caused chaos with her open invitation to migrants when prudence would have been wise, so the same with this
    Why did her open invitation to migrants cause chaos?

    Did your life become more chaotic?
    It is accepted that she made a huge error which continues to be played out on the Greek border
  • Nigelb said:

    eadric said:
    That is brutal.

    This perhaps goes some way to explain the numbers ?
    “ The health ministry says the average age of deaths from the coronavirus is 81.4 years.”
    Is anyone confident that the average age of fatalities will remain that high? I'm not.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,267
    Freggles said:

    BREAKING Nadine Dorries health minister has coronavirus

    That is terrible. Not my favourite lady but best wishes for a speedy recovery to her.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    Newsnight: major uplift in testing of virus from tomorrow
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Blimey. No fan of Nadine’s politics, but I hope she’s ok. Could the entire government now be at risk?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,669
    edited March 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    eadric said:
    That is brutal.

    This perhaps goes some way to explain the numbers ?
    “ The health ministry says the average age of deaths from the coronavirus is 81.4 years.”
    8% in Lombardy and 0.13% in Germany.
    I wonder if I was right last week in thinking Germany had a different strain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,285
    glw said:

    eadric said:

    AND MAKE EVERYONE WEAR A MASK ALL THE TIME

    Have you seen the videos of Chinese police brutally arresting people for not wearing masks?

    I get why they did it, now. They are one of the single best ways of stopping spreading, if people HAVE to go out. If you're infected, you won't cough and sneeze over everyone, you will cough and sneeze into your mask.

    It's so fucking absurdly pathetically surreally simple. We deserve to lose global leadership to the Asians if we can't grasp something that basic.

    People will eventually demand Chinese style government, and happily wave goodbye to liberal democracy, when they believe it will make them wealthier and stop their families dying of the plague.
    It was the Chinese government which created the plague by allowing live animal meat markets and experiments on bats
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,172
    Freggles said:

    BREAKING Nadine Dorries health minister has coronavirus

    Blimey.... I didn’t realise she was a minister.

    More seriously, so much for government led social distancing:
    The paper’s reporting that Dorries has “met hundreds of people in parliament in the past week and attended a reception at No 10 with Boris Johnson”. She is said to be recovering. This is the first case of an MP testing positive and the news comes amid discussions over whether parliament should be temporarily shut down....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,618
    Freggles said:
    Oh God we could have half the government out ill at crucial time. I did wonder if it was wise to have the two egg heads leading this out and about meeting so many politicians, journos etc.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,114
    CONAD
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,189
    I have looked over Shadsys book and gone for orange tie tommorow, saffron being a good Hindu colour.

    On the buzzword bingo have gone for Fishing, Hard Working Families and No need to panic.

  • Freggles said:
    Been mingling with mps and went to a reception with Boris

    HOC closed soon ?
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,844
    Was meeting a friend for dinner tonight, we went to a local independent restaurant that I go to about once a month on average. For the first time ever, completely empty, the entire time we were there. Its a restaurant that gets a lot of business through big Asian tourist groups. They said 100% of these reservations cancelled for March, 75% cancelled for April already. Hard to see how many of these smaller places will survive a sustained crisis. The economic damage will be huge.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,189
    edited March 2020
    Nadine Dories has Coronavirus according to Newsnight.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,618

    Newsnight: major uplift in testing of virus from tomorrow

    I hope they follow the SK model of having two types of testing, allowing for much bigger volumne.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 597
    Will the budget go ahead?
  • If there are multiple strains circulating, we better hope that most at least of the UK ones are not the one from Italy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,320

    TOPPING said:

    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    Yes, she is predicting that
    Maybe I misread your post - you seemed to say 4 million
    She was referring to the WHO worst case scenario:
    - up to 70% infected
    - 5-10% in critical care i.e. 4 million
    - 1% fatalities

    She didn't make a prediction.
    Why did she say it in the first place. Hostage to fortune
    Are you suggesting that the political leadership of the country stays silent about the impending crisis?
    She had refrained from comment thus far, largely.
    She already caused chaos with her open invitation to migrants when prudence would have been wise, so the same with this
    Why did her open invitation to migrants cause chaos?

    Did your life become more chaotic?
    It is accepted that she made a huge error which continues to be played out on the Greek border
    No it isn't.

    How did your life become more chaotic?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984

    Freggles said:
    Been mingling with mps and went to a reception with Boris

    HOC closed soon ?
    iirc the Speaker has said he would like to close HoC if one member of MP or staff gets this.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,392
    TGOHF666 said:
    This is not time for higher taxes. I presume the budget will go ahead. It really has to even if Parliament shuts down shortly after.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,618
    TGOHF666 said:
    There won't be much fuel revenue coming in for the next 6 months anyway...
  • eadric said:

    As many as '60 to 70 per cent' of Germans will be infected with the deadly coronavirus, Chancellor Angela Merkel warned today, as the contagion threatened to rip through Europe.

    She is therefore predicting that, on a conservative estimate, 480,000 Germans will die, and 4 million will require critical care in hospital. In the next few weeks.
    83 million living in Germany and by my maths 70% of that is 58 million

    Am I missing something or is she predicting 58 million Germans will be infected ?
    So she is quoting one scenario. There are many scenarios. Some with big numbers. Some with small numbers.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,835
    edited March 2020
    ...
This discussion has been closed.