Also, on self-isolation after a skiing or any other kind of holiday, is it that easy?
Suppose Our Man into Tyrol manages to return to Barnes.
First, he has to get from Heathrow/Luton/Stansted Airport to Barnes.
Second, his cupboard is bare of milk, bread and supplies. There are long delays in getting supermarkets to deliver at the moment (a week in my part of the world).
Without friendly and accommodating neighbours, then it is not going to be so easy for a returning holiday-maker to self-isolate for 2 weeks.
It's not about complete self isolation
It's about changing the quantity of people you have physical interactions with. If you live in London, travel by tube to the office, where you spend time with a lot of people, you may be in close physical contact with 1,000 people a day.
Given the virus is currently doubling every six days, that means that it might mean that one to three of the six thousand people you have physical contact with over that period gets it.
Now, imagine you cut your physical contact down to 100 people a day. That means that instead of one to three people, it's 0.1 to 0.3 people that you pass it onto to. So long as everyone does this, then the number of new cases slows dramatically.
I obviously take your sensible point, but the NHS advice is as I described it.
"Do not invite visitors to your home or allow visitors to enter, do not go to work, school or public areas, do not use public transport like buses, trains, tubes or taxis, do not share dishes, drinking glasses, cups, eating utensils, towels, bedding or other items with other people in your home."
It would be hard for someone returning from vacation to do that without some help.
I could have phrased myself better.
"You don't need to have complete isolation to dramatically slow the progress of the virus. Anything which limits your interactions with others reduces the likelihood the virus will spread."
It's a bit like the Ten Commandments. If you manage to obey nine a day you're still in with a chance.
Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher. You can go there as you usually do.'
Despite his warning, many Italians have done exactly that today with long queues forming outside supermarkets.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You sound like a geriatric Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
I'm puzzled by this. I thought the complaint was that the EU was too powerful, riding roughshod over the sovereignty of member states, which was why we had to leave. Now it seems that the complaint is that it is impotent and doesn't ride sufficiently roughshod over the sovereignty of member states.
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You sound like a geriatric Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
I am sure that is an insult but never heard of the person
BREAKING: Rishi Sunak will promise “historic” investment in roads, railways, broadband and scientific research in his first budget, as the government tries to deliver on its promise to “level up” the UK.
Much of Sunak’s first major statement on Wednesday will be devoted to the emergency measures the Treasury will take to cushion the economic impact of the coronavirus.
But he will also seek to draw a line under a decade of Conservative austerity, by promising to boost spending on infrastructure and innovation.
“This is a budget for people right across the country – no region will be left behind,” Sunak said on Tuesday.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
Governor Cuomo has activated the New York National Guard and is using them to undertake cleaning and to enforce a one-mile "containment area" around the synagogue in New Rochelle that the first case in Westchester County attends, the synagogue appearing to be the place where wider transmission from the original family has taken place. All schools within the area are to close for two weeks as are other "large gathering places" in the area. Residents may continue to enter or leave unless specifically ordered to quarantine. Grocery stores not included in the closure order.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
Migrants want to come to the EU. Geographically, Greece is one of the entry points.
The migrants camps are shameful. But, the solution -- a mechanism to assess who is eligible for refugee status and then to disperse them to all the member countries -- has proved impossible for the EU to find.
So, Greece has been left almost alone to face the crisis. The EU have given money -- but money is not really the problem. A future for the migrants is the problem.
Hence, the camps. Hence, Greece firing at migrants.
But, if the EU is to mean anything, it is to solve problems like this.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You sound like a geriatric Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
I am sure that is an insult but never heard of the person
Journalist well known for chronicling the last half dozen EU collapses which didn’t happen.
(Just to be clear, I do not think you geriatric at all.)
Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher. You can go there as you usually do.'
Despite his warning, many Italians have done exactly that today with long queues forming outside supermarkets.
Apparently there has also been big queues for getting refunded for ski passes in the affected areas....shakes head.
Slightly difficult if you need food to eat.
Ideally the government in Italy would have been advising them to stock up in preparation over the last few weeks.
Perhaps those hoarding bog rolls right now in this country, against government advice, are not so daft after all?
When it gets bad in the UK those that have steadily bought the extra pack of things here and there will be fine. I've got a decent box of food, 10 bottles of wine, 20 pints, and 3L of spirits and mixers. Oh, and two nice bottle of Champagne, one for my birthday in April, and a second for when it's mostly over.
Sounds like you are well stocked. I bought a new freezer, a bread machine and about £500 of food about three weeks ago. My elderly parents did the same.
Me too. My big decision now is where to go, to sit this out. A friend has offered me a seaside apartment in a little Welsh village, near Cardiff. It's tempting. But the Welsh NHS is not the best.
Alternatively Cornwall or Herefordshire are quite appealing.
Depends on whether you are going hard core isolation in the woods with a shotgun or whether you think you might go half-in and then get the dreaded virus.
If the latter, look at the demographics of the area and try and glean the quality of the local hospital. But avoid major cities.
I am hoping this is the day that the "just a flu, lol at the bedwetters" tendency are going to shut up. The situation in Italy now is clearly, on impeccable first hand evidence, at least as bad as the most pessimistic forecasts made by anybody here, and the possibility that we are going to suffer less than Italy is negligible.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
I'm puzzled by this. I thought the complaint was that the EU was too powerful, riding roughshod over the sovereignty of member states, which was why we had to leave. Now it seems that the complaint is that it is impotent and doesn't ride sufficiently roughshod over the sovereignty of member states.
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Confused of Sussex.
I think the point is that it reflects well on Boris - or at least not too poorly on him - if members of the club he got us to leave are having an equally bad time of it.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
Ridiculous self reassurance. This isn’t an EU UK issue it’s well beyond that. You can’t give me a single example of what they should have done if I remember correctly you were in the ‘nothing to panic about’ four weeks ago did you suggest what the EU should be doing? If the UK thinks it has had magic management powers to control this crisis it it deluded. We are all in this together.
Re Japan and Singapore - of course new infections are rising again.
That's to be expected.
The correct response is to dramatically reduce people's contact points. That slows the virus down, and reduces the number of new infections.
But you need to loosen this at some point. So, you reduce the restrictions, and people get out more, and then the number increases again.
Once you get to a certain point, you reintroduce controls.
Each time you get a surge and then a flattening and a drop off in new cases.
You can't simply quarantine everyone until every last case is over, because that might be months, and more people would die from other things. You need to manage the outbreak, and allow the maximum number of cases to be such that the healthcare system can handle.
This means accepting waves of infected numbers increasing and then subsiding. And we will need to keep doing this until we have a vaccine or cure.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
I'm puzzled by this. I thought the complaint was that the EU was too powerful, riding roughshod over the sovereignty of member states, which was why we had to leave. Now it seems that the complaint is that it is impotent and doesn't ride sufficiently roughshod over the sovereignty of member states.
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Confused of Sussex.
The EU fans seek ever closer union which in a crisis should act as one for it's members and that is not happening. This is the flaw in the EU
Also, on self-isolation after a skiing or any other kind of holiday, is it that easy?
Suppose Our Man into Tyrol manages to return to Barnes.
First, he has to get from Heathrow/Luton/Stansted Airport to Barnes.
Second, his cupboard is bare of milk, bread and supplies. There are long delays in getting supermarkets to deliver at the moment (a week in my part of the world).
Without friendly and accommodating neighbours, then it is not going to be so easy for a returning holiday-maker to self-isolate for 2 weeks.
It's not about complete self isolation
It's about changing the quantity of people you have physical interactions with. If you live in London, travel by tube to the office, where you spend time with a lot of people, you may be in close physical contact with 1,000 people a day.
Given the virus is currently doubling every six days, that means that it might mean that one to three of the six thousand people you have physical contact with over that period gets it.
Now, imagine you cut your physical contact down to 100 people a day. That means that instead of one to three people, it's 0.1 to 0.3 people that you pass it onto to. So long as everyone does this, then the number of new cases slows dramatically.
I obviously take your sensible point, but the NHS advice is as I described it.
"Do not invite visitors to your home or allow visitors to enter, do not go to work, school or public areas, do not use public transport like buses, trains, tubes or taxis, do not share dishes, drinking glasses, cups, eating utensils, towels, bedding or other items with other people in your home."
It would be hard for someone returning from vacation to do that without some help.
I could have phrased myself better.
"You don't need to have complete isolation to dramatically slow the progress of the virus. Anything which limits your interactions with others reduces the likelihood the virus will spread."
It's a bit like the Ten Commandments. If you manage to obey nine a day you're still in with a chance.
Do they have to be the same nine, or can I mix and match?
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You sound like a geriatric Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
I am sure that is an insult but never heard of the person
Journalist well known for chronicling the last half dozen EU collapses which didn’t happen.
(Just to be clear, I do not think you geriatric at all.)
Lost in the Greek migrant shooting story is the underlying cause: Turkey has given up hope of ever getting EU membership as a quid pro quo for being Europe's bouncer, and the bribe money alone isn't enough to justify their continued employment in the role.
But of course, I'm a racist for pointing this out...
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You sound like a geriatric Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
Migrants want to come to the EU. Geographically, Greece is one of the entry points.
The migrants camps are shameful. But, the solution -- a mechanism to assess who is eligible for refugee status and then to disperse them to all the member countries -- has proved impossible for the EU to find.
So, Greece has been left almost alone to face the crisis. The EU have given money -- but money is not really the problem. A future for the migrants is the problem.
Hence, the camps. Hence, Greece firing at migrants.
But, if the EU is to mean anything, it is to solve problems like this.
So, the EU has given money, but Greece has fucked it up, like pretty much anything they’ve had to organise.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
I'm puzzled by this. I thought the complaint was that the EU was too powerful, riding roughshod over the sovereignty of member states, which was why we had to leave. Now it seems that the complaint is that it is impotent and doesn't ride sufficiently roughshod over the sovereignty of member states.
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Confused of Sussex.
The EU fans seek ever closer union which in a crisis should act as one for it's members and that is not happening. This is the flaw in the EU
Which EU fans are you talking about? Stop digging, you are in a rhetorical and mental hole.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
Migrants want to come to the EU. Geographically, Greece is one of the entry points.
The migrants camps are shameful. But, the solution -- a mechanism to assess who is eligible for refugee status and then to disperse them to all the member countries -- has proved impossible for the EU to find.
So, Greece has been left almost alone to face the crisis. The EU have given money -- but money is not really the problem. A future for the migrants is the problem.
Hence, the camps. Hence, Greece firing at migrants.
But, if the EU is to mean anything, it is to solve problems like this.
So, the EU has given money, but Greece has fucked it up, like pretty much anything they’ve had to organise.
Turkey recenty told the migrants the border was open.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
As Nabavi, who is much kinder than me, Has pointed out, you keep contradicting yourself.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
Ridiculous self reassurance. This isn’t an EU UK issue it’s well beyond that. You can’t give me a single example of what they should have done if I remember correctly you were in the ‘nothing to panic about’ four weeks ago did you suggest what the EU should be doing? If the UK thinks it has had magic management powers to control this crisis it it deluded. We are all in this together.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You opened this rather silly debate by stating that people would have 'a pot at' you, and you've repeated it several times to the extent that it suggests to me that was what you wanted. If someone else did the same you'd almost certainly advise them to grow up.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
Greece is the EU. The EU is the member countries. The EU is shooting migrants.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
I'm puzzled by this. I thought the complaint was that the EU was too powerful, riding roughshod over the sovereignty of member states, which was why we had to leave. Now it seems that the complaint is that it is impotent and doesn't ride sufficiently roughshod over the sovereignty of member states.
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Confused of Sussex.
The EU fans seek ever closer union which in a crisis should act as one for it's members and that is not happening. This is the flaw in the EU
Which EU fans are you talking about? Stop digging, you are in a rhetorical and mental hole.
I will post as I wish and will not be intimated by insults
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
To be fair Mollie Sugden's been dead for a decade.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
Greece is the EU. The EU is the member countries. The EU is shooting migrants.
Thank god we are out.
Someone with a private education needs to identify the Latin term for the very shit logic you are displaying here.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
To be fair Mollie Sugden's been dead for a decade.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
Greece is the EU. The EU is the member countries. The EU is shooting migrants.
Thank god we are out.
Someone with a private education needs to identify the Latin term for the very shit logic you are displaying here.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
I'm puzzled by this. I thought the complaint was that the EU was too powerful, riding roughshod over the sovereignty of member states, which was why we had to leave. Now it seems that the complaint is that it is impotent and doesn't ride sufficiently roughshod over the sovereignty of member states.
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Confused of Sussex.
The EU fans seek ever closer union which in a crisis should act as one for it's members and that is not happening. This is the flaw in the EU
Which EU fans are you talking about? Stop digging, you are in a rhetorical and mental hole.
I will post as I wish and will not be intimated by insults
I am hoping this is the day that the "just a flu, lol at the bedwetters" tendency are going to shut up. The situation in Italy now is clearly, on impeccable first hand evidence, at least as bad as the most pessimistic forecasts made by anybody here
I don’t see how that’s really true. The most pessimistic forecasts are 60% of the country getting it and 1-2% of the country dying. It may be that they are matching pessimistic forecast for the period since their first case, but that’s not quite the same.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You opened this rather silly debate by stating that people would have 'a pot at' you, and you've repeated it several times to the extent that it suggests to me that was what you wanted. If someone else did the same you'd almost certainly advise them to grow up.
Not really. I just feel the EU are impotent and am very angry over Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border
As has happened those who are in awe of the EU hit out but I am not going to be silenced by criticism or insults
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
To be fair Mollie Sugden's been dead for a decade.
We’re Slocombe in on with the news in the U.K.
My pussy’s been coughing something chronic since we came back from Italy.
I am hoping this is the day that the "just a flu, lol at the bedwetters" tendency are going to shut up. The situation in Italy now is clearly, on impeccable first hand evidence, at least as bad as the most pessimistic forecasts made by anybody here
I don’t see how that’s really true. The most pessimistic forecasts are 60% of the country getting it and 1-2% of the country dying. It may be that they are matching pessimistic forecast for the period since their first case, but that’s not quite the same.
A crisis is when people who need icu beds can’t get them, or when operating theaters are turned into icu beds and surgery for urgent cases gets postponed. We’re supposed to be an advanced civilization who can handle these issues, time the politicians stood up to the plate. It’s not % but knock on impact.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
You have become a strange being looking for fault where it doesn’t exist attempting to justify your decision to vote Tory. The EU was never set up to manage this situation, it can’t and just shows the lies that people spread about it. As it happens every European country have, at different points, taken the same decisions as each other. There is no difference in what happens in country a or b. Even testing rates are irrelevant if you are not testing the right people. What would you have had the EU do at the outset of this crisis? Rather than taking the daily mail view on life.
A true union would have coordinated the response but it is impotent.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
You opened this rather silly debate by stating that people would have 'a pot at' you, and you've repeated it several times to the extent that it suggests to me that was what you wanted. If someone else did the same you'd almost certainly advise them to grow up.
Not really. I just feel the EU are impotent and am very angry over Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border
As has happened those who are in awe of the EU hit out but I am not going to be silenced by criticism or insults
More to the point what should governments be doing? Any good suggestions?
On the medical side, continue listening to the experts.
On the economic side, it's more tricky. Here are some suggestions for the UK government:
- Suspend the requirement for Universal Credit claimants to search for jobs. There aren't gonna be any jobs to search for until this is over. That will help tide over those dependent on benefits, whose income is guaranteed by the state so won't be otherwise affected. - Defer PAYE and NI payments by companies to help their cashflow, which in turn will help them continue to pay staff and avoid firms falling into insolvency. - Extend the Employment Allowance to help with the costs of keeping staff on. - As already discussed, pay statutory sick pay straightaway. - Cancel business rates for the duration of the crisis. - We also need to find a way to help gig economy workers. That's a tricky one to implement quickly, but I think it has to be some kind of emergency payment to cover lost income.
These kinds of measures will be extremely expensive, but I don't think there's much choice, and it will be expensive not to take them.
I am hoping this is the day that the "just a flu, lol at the bedwetters" tendency are going to shut up. The situation in Italy now is clearly, on impeccable first hand evidence, at least as bad as the most pessimistic forecasts made by anybody here
I don’t see how that’s really true. The most pessimistic forecasts are 60% of the country getting it and 1-2% of the country dying. It may be that they are matching pessimistic forecast for the period since their first case, but that’s not quite the same.
A crisis is when people who need icu beds can’t get them, or when operating theaters are turned into icu beds and surgery for urgent cases gets postponed. We’re supposed to be an advanced civilization who can handle these issues, time the politicians stood up to the plate. It’s not % but knock on impact.
You would have preferred we wasted tens of billions on unneeded ICU beds over the past decades just to be ready for this? Given the finite resources available to the NHS, it is not really a surprise that they do that.
So, the EU has given money, but Greece has fucked it up, like pretty much anything they’ve had to organise.
The problem isn't money.
Just like Papal Indulgences, money does not make the sin go away.
Sure. You need a plan. Does Greece have a plan?
You have done what I said. You have abandoned Greece.
It is not for Greece to have a plan. The migrants don't want to come to Greece. They want to come to the EU.
They are just stuck in Greece, by an accident of geography.
Go back to bragging how successful you are. We all love it when you speak highly of yourself.
The migrants “don’t want to come to Greece” and yet they are. The EU are providing money but Greece prefers to shoot them in the water.
I am not “abandoning” Greece.
I am merely repositioning the facts to demonstrate that contra Big G and your own contention, the EU is not the root of all evil.
The referendum is over.
You both need to move on to figuring out why Wales is one of the most impoverished regions in Western Europe.
Not all of Wales is impoverished. The cities in the south seem to be doing ok. The big problems are the rural counties which have lost their older industries and not replaced them with others. Tourism in Pembrokeshire hasn't been invested in anything like as much as Cornwall/Devon or even Ireland. For that I blame a moribund county council and a useless assemby government.
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
You seem to ge unaware that Turkey is to blame for the current Greek refugeee crisis. These are people on the Turkish side of the border trying the enter Greece aided and abetted by the Turks.
I am hoping this is the day that the "just a flu, lol at the bedwetters" tendency are going to shut up. The situation in Italy now is clearly, on impeccable first hand evidence, at least as bad as the most pessimistic forecasts made by anybody here
I don’t see how that’s really true. The most pessimistic forecasts are 60% of the country getting it and 1-2% of the country dying. It may be that they are matching pessimistic forecast for the period since their first case, but that’s not quite the same.
A crisis is when people who need icu beds can’t get them, or when operating theaters are turned into icu beds and surgery for urgent cases gets postponed. We’re supposed to be an advanced civilization who can handle these issues, time the politicians stood up to the plate. It’s not % but knock on impact.
You would have preferred we wasted tens of billions on unneeded ICU beds over the past decades just to be ready for this? Given the finite resources available to the NHS, it is not really a surprise that they do that.
Actually casino made some suggestions that he hoped the government were already taking behind the scenes to manage this. There might be a reason why most other European countries have more icu beds per head than the UK . I’m just paranoid, no apologies just hoping the health service ‘In spain’ doesn’t break down when I need it for the first time
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
I dunno - isn't that inevitable here? The news every day is basically a variant of the same thing: "X thousand more caught it, lots died, wash your hands." Maybe the occasional disaster porn from the latest unfortunate hotspot.
That news fatigue is going to be a real problem when they have to pull out the really big policy guns .... and we won't have many shots of those to fire.
So, the EU has given money, but Greece has fucked it up, like pretty much anything they’ve had to organise.
The problem isn't money.
Just like Papal Indulgences, money does not make the sin go away.
Sure. You need a plan. Does Greece have a plan?
You're being very hard on Greece. Look at what is actually happening.
Erdogan the Wanker of Ankara has not only bussed thousands of migrants to the border, his police are helping the migrants as they try to break through the frontier.
There are reports that Greek people in Lesbos have turned to vigilantism and are finally turning on the migrants there.
DavidL predicted this a few days ago. The combination of a deadly plague in Europe and thousands of migrants trying to break into Europe is calamitous.
Already shots have been fired and there are reports of deaths. There will be many more. I'm not sure I can blame Greece for reacting like this. What else are they meant to do?
The big risk is open war between Greece and Turkey.
Turkey has been occupying northern Cyprus illegally since 1974. Cyprus is EU territory.
More to the point what should governments be doing? Any good suggestions?
On the medical side, continue listening to the experts.
On the economic side, it's more tricky. Here are some suggestions for the UK government:
- Suspend the requirement for Universal Credit claimants to search for jobs. There aren't gonna be any jobs to search for until this is over. That will help tide over those dependent on benefits, whose income is guaranteed by the state so won't be otherwise affected. - Defer PAYE and NI payments by companies to help their cashflow, which in turn will help them continue to pay staff and avoid firms falling into insolvency. - Extend the Employment Allowance to help with the costs of keeping staff on. - As already discussed, pay statutory sick pay straightaway. - Cancel business rates for the duration of the crisis. - We also need to find a way to help gig economy workers. That's a tricky one to implement quickly, but I think it has to be some kind of emergency payment to cover lost income.
These kinds of measures will be extremely expensive, but I don't think there's much choice, and it will be expensive not to take them.
Interesting short term universal income based on earnings, small business support
Oddly enough the economics are more frightening than the medical
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
It's hardly demented as a diversion. If it weren't for The Bloody Virus, the migrant crisis would likely be headline news. Bulgaria has just opened a dam to flood a river, to help Greece hold back the migrants.
I am surprised we haven't had an outbreak in a place like Las Vegas or Macao. Cities based around casinos are massive germ factories at the best of times, think of all those chips being passed from person to person.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
You're suggesting an EU border defence force?
Look, I agree that the way the EU operates leaves Italy and Greece on the front line, with f*ck all support from the Germans and those they protect. And if I was in Italy or Greece, I'd feel pretty aggrieved by that.
But I'm struggling to think anything of the EU right now. I'm kind of distracted by other things.
So, the EU has given money, but Greece has fucked it up, like pretty much anything they’ve had to organise.
The problem isn't money.
Just like Papal Indulgences, money does not make the sin go away.
Sure. You need a plan. Does Greece have a plan?
You have done what I said. You have abandoned Greece.
It is not for Greece to have a plan. The migrants don't want to come to Greece. They want to come to the EU.
They are just stuck in Greece, by an accident of geography.
Go back to bragging how successful you are. We all love it when you speak highly of yourself.
The migrants “don’t want to come to Greece” and yet they are. The EU are providing money but Greece prefers to shoot them in the water.
I am not “abandoning” Greece.
I am merely repositioning the facts to demonstrate that contra Big G and your own contention, the EU is not the root of all evil.
The referendum is over.
You both need to move on to figuring out why Wales is one of the most impoverished regions in Western Europe.
Not all of Wales is impoverished. The cities in the south seem to be doing ok. The big problems are the rural counties which have lost their older industries and not replaced them with others. Tourism in Pembrokeshire hasn't been invested in anything like as much as Cornwall/Devon or even Ireland. For that I blame a moribund county council and a useless assemby government.
As far as I can see, Wales is cut in three.
The North, in large part a Liverpool exurb and more remotely a tourist report.
The Middle, a remote rural fastness.
The South, a moderately prosperous capital with a massive ex-industrial overhang in the form of some of the poorest areas in Europe (ie the Valleys).
Agriculture has always been marginal due to the hilly land. Industry is now dead, and is not coming back. There are only VERY small pockets where industries are able to compete nationally, let alone internationally.
On top of this, the dead hand of Labour (but not just Labour) have serially mismanaged social services, notably health and education, and demonstrated an absolute poverty of ambition for what Wales could be and should be.
Where is Wales’s national investment bank? How does Cardiff University fare on international league tables, and as a research hub? How well do Welsh students perform in maths and science? How well do transport links facilitate Cardiff’s and Wrexham’s employee catchment areas?
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
It's hardly demented as a diversion. If it weren't for The Bloody Virus, the migrant crisis would likely be headline news. Bulgaria has just opened a dam to flood a river, to help Greece hold back the migrants.
I have great respect for the Turkish people, and the few I've known have been wonderful people.
But Turkey at the moment... is not working out as well as it might. Someone needs to tell them that they are not the Ottoman Empire any more, and firmly at that. I do not see a future role for their current President either.
The Republican mayor of Sterling Heights, Michigan, a key battleground state, is voting for Joe Biden in Michigan's Democratic primary on Tuesday after supporting President Donald Trump in 2016, telling CNN that his decision is about wanting "basic human decency" in a president.
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
It's hardly demented as a diversion. If it weren't for The Bloody Virus, the migrant crisis would likely be headline news. Bulgaria has just opened a dam to flood a river, to help Greece hold back the migrants.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
You're suggesting an EU border defence force?
Look, I agree that the way the EU operates leaves Italy and Greece on the front line, with f*ck all support from the Germans and those they protect. And if I was in Italy or Greece, I'd feel pretty aggrieved by that.
But I'm struggling to think anything of the EU right now. I'm kind of distracted by other things.
It was the body of a young child brought ashore that really upset my wife and I
The EU, Greece and others have to stop shooting migrants
Covid 19 is taking all the band width when other very serious issues need attention
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
It's hardly demented as a diversion. If it weren't for The Bloody Virus, the migrant crisis would likely be headline news. Bulgaria has just opened a dam to flood a river, to help Greece hold back the migrants.
I am hoping this is the day that the "just a flu, lol at the bedwetters" tendency are going to shut up. The situation in Italy now is clearly, on impeccable first hand evidence, at least as bad as the most pessimistic forecasts made by anybody here
I don’t see how that’s really true. The most pessimistic forecasts are 60% of the country getting it and 1-2% of the country dying. It may be that they are matching pessimistic forecast for the period since their first case, but that’s not quite the same.
Those were worst case final outcome figures, and we are a bit away from a final outcome. I was talking about qualitative judgments about the depth of the crisis we are now in.
Covid 19 has demonstrated the impotence of the EU for all to see
When a country comes under an existential threat, the politicians of that country will act in that country's interest in defiance of anything the EU may demand
Furthermore, the countries are more nimble than a juggernaut like the EU
I know I will get EU supporters having a pop at me but it isthere for all to see.
The Greeks opening fire on migrants on behalf of the EU to protect it's borders is shameful
No it’s not it is just showing that we weren’t in a superstate that’s controlled our lives, countries are free to make their own Decisions. What on earth did you expect the EU to do in the current circumstances?
They claim ever closer union and it has been shown that it is a sham
Have you been reading too much Daily Mail again? Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
I said some would have a pop at me but it has shown the EU as useless at times like this
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
To the extent that Greece are shooting migrants, I condemn it.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it. Or the Chinese Politburo. Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department. Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
The point is obvious.
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
You're suggesting an EU border defence force?
Look, I agree that the way the EU operates leaves Italy and Greece on the front line, with f*ck all support from the Germans and those they protect. And if I was in Italy or Greece, I'd feel pretty aggrieved by that.
But I'm struggling to think anything of the EU right now. I'm kind of distracted by other things.
It was the body of a young child brought ashore that really upset my wife and I
The EU, Greece and others have to stop shooting migrants
Covid 19 is taking all the band width when other very serious issues need attention
Turkey is helping the migrants breach the Greek border.
I am surprised we haven't had an outbreak in a place like Las Vegas or Macao. Cities based around casinos are massive germ factories at the best of times, think of all those chips being passed from person to person.
The diversion - demented as it is - on to Greek refugee issues - shows at least that coronavirus may be moving down the news?
It's hardly demented as a diversion. If it weren't for The Bloody Virus, the migrant crisis would likely be headline news. Bulgaria has just opened a dam to flood a river, to help Greece hold back the migrants.
Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher. You can go there as you usually do.'
Despite his warning, many Italians have done exactly that today with long queues forming outside supermarkets.
I am surprised we haven't had an outbreak in a place like Las Vegas or Macao. Cities based around casinos are massive germ factories at the best of times, think of all those chips being passed from person to person.
Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher. You can go there as you usually do.'
Despite his warning, many Italians have done exactly that today with long queues forming outside supermarkets.
Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher. You can go there as you usually do.'
Despite his warning, many Italians have done exactly that today with long queues forming outside supermarkets.
Apparently there has also been big queues for getting refunded for ski passes in the affected areas....shakes head.
Slightly difficult if you need food to eat.
Ideally the government in Italy would have been advising them to stock up in preparation over the last few weeks.
Perhaps those hoarding bog rolls right now in this country, against government advice, are not so daft after all?
When it gets bad in the UK those that have steadily bought the extra pack of things here and there will be fine. I've got a decent box of food, 10 bottles of wine, 20 pints, and 3L of spirits and mixers. Oh, and two nice bottle of Champagne, one for my birthday in April, and a second for when it's mostly over.
Sounds like you are well stocked. I bought a new freezer, a bread machine and about £500 of food about three weeks ago. My elderly parents did the same.
Me too. My big decision now is where to go, to sit this out. A friend has offered me a seaside apartment in a little Welsh village, near Cardiff. It's tempting. But the Welsh NHS is not the best.
Alternatively Cornwall or Herefordshire are quite appealing.
Depends on whether you are going hard core isolation in the woods with a shotgun or whether you think you might go half-in and then get the dreaded virus.
If the latter, look at the demographics of the area and try and glean the quality of the local hospital. But avoid major cities.
Budleigh Salterton. A village on the coast and out of the wasy It's on the coast so there there are less directions of "attack" for the virus, but it is easy to get to the large and good hospital: The Royal Devon and Exeter.
I am surprised we haven't had an outbreak in a place like Las Vegas or Macao. Cities based around casinos are massive germ factories at the best of times, think of all those chips being passed from person to person.
I was thinking the same thing.
Vegas has exported more cases than they apparently have I believe.
I am surprised we haven't had an outbreak in a place like Las Vegas or Macao. Cities based around casinos are massive germ factories at the best of times, think of all those chips being passed from person to person.
I was thinking the same thing.
The slots are also a big risk, unless they are disinfecting them regularly
Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher. You can go there as you usually do.'
Despite his warning, many Italians have done exactly that today with long queues forming outside supermarkets.
Apparently there has also been big queues for getting refunded for ski passes in the affected areas....shakes head.
Slightly difficult if you need food to eat.
Ideally the government in Italy would have been advising them to stock up in preparation over the last few weeks.
Perhaps those hoarding bog rolls right now in this country, against government advice, are not so daft after all?
When it gets bad in the UK those that have steadily bought the extra pack of things here and there will be fine. I've got a decent box of food, 10 bottles of wine, 20 pints, and 3L of spirits and mixers. Oh, and two nice bottle of Champagne, one for my birthday in April, and a second for when it's mostly over.
Sounds like you are well stocked. I bought a new freezer, a bread machine and about £500 of food about three weeks ago. My elderly parents did the same.
Me too. My big decision now is where to go, to sit this out. A friend has offered me a seaside apartment in a little Welsh village, near Cardiff. It's tempting. But the Welsh NHS is not the best.
Alternatively Cornwall or Herefordshire are quite appealing.
Depends on whether you are going hard core isolation in the woods with a shotgun or whether you think you might go half-in and then get the dreaded virus.
If the latter, look at the demographics of the area and try and glean the quality of the local hospital. But avoid major cities.
Budleigh Salterton. A village on the coast and out of the wasy It's on the coast so there there are less directions of "attack" for the virus, but it is easy to get to the large and good hospital: The Royal Devon and Exeter.
You both need to move on to figuring out why Wales is one of the most impoverished regions in Western Europe.
Wales is poor because it is run for England's benefit. It is poor for the same reasons that the Belgian Congo was poor.
It is a colony of England. Its masters extract the wealth, and take it to England. Its resources are stolen by English companies.
England dumps rubbish in Wales. From the radioactive mud dumped in Cardiff Bay, to English fascists like Nick Griffin, to serial offenders and problem families dumped by Birmingham or Liverpool Council in cheap Welsh social housing.
England created a sham administration in Cardiff Bay. In Labour's ramshackle government, truth is whatever the third sector or the lobbyists decide best serves the interests of the Labour placemen. It is a cess-pit of corruption and treachery.
Wales is a retirement and recreation area for England, a dumping ground for England’s problems. And the idiotic Welsh Labour Government provides a pot of gold for every English crook and shyster looking to make easy money.
Wales need to look to Scotland, where they kicked out their Labour stooge government that ran the country in English interests.
Wales need to look to Ireland -- a confident country about to be reunited.
Comments
Oh.
You can pop me as much as you like but the truth hurts.
The EU is heading into a real crisis and it is good we are out
Pathetic attempt to find a reason - any reason - to moan about the EU.
We left, you lost (you voted Remain), get over it.
Too early to tell.
But better than continued, out-of-control rise.
I remain optimistic.
The Far East have shown us the way.
We can beat this.
And I do not hear you condemning Greece shooting migrants to protect the EU border and no condemnation from Brussels
I'm also puzzled as to how being in or out of the EU makes the slightest bit of difference in this particular crisis.
Confused of Sussex.
Much of Sunak’s first major statement on Wednesday will be devoted to the emergency measures the Treasury will take to cushion the economic impact of the coronavirus.
But he will also seek to draw a line under a decade of Conservative austerity, by promising to boost spending on infrastructure and innovation.
“This is a budget for people right across the country – no region will be left behind,” Sunak said on Tuesday.
I also haven’t heard the Uk condemn it.
Or the Chinese Politburo.
Or Vodafone’s Marketing Department.
Or Mollie Sugden.
What the hell is your point?
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/2020/03/10/coronavirus-cuomo-orders-new-rochelle-containment-area/5011068002/
The migrants camps are shameful. But, the solution -- a mechanism to assess who is eligible for refugee status and then to disperse them to all the member countries -- has proved impossible for the EU to find.
So, Greece has been left almost alone to face the crisis. The EU have given money -- but money is not really the problem. A future for the migrants is the problem.
Hence, the camps. Hence, Greece firing at migrants.
But, if the EU is to mean anything, it is to solve problems like this.
(Just to be clear, I do not think you geriatric at all.)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GvO77Q1O49d0m4lQdBNdus3H8wdf3s-vLPE8c4cntsI/edit#gid=0
If the latter, look at the demographics of the area and try and glean the quality of the local hospital. But avoid major cities.
That's to be expected.
The correct response is to dramatically reduce people's contact points. That slows the virus down, and reduces the number of new infections.
But you need to loosen this at some point. So, you reduce the restrictions, and people get out more, and then the number increases again.
Once you get to a certain point, you reintroduce controls.
Each time you get a surge and then a flattening and a drop off in new cases.
You can't simply quarantine everyone until every last case is over, because that might be months, and more people would die from other things. You need to manage the outbreak, and allow the maximum number of cases to be such that the healthcare system can handle.
This means accepting waves of infected numbers increasing and then subsiding. And we will need to keep doing this until we have a vaccine or cure.
But of course, I'm a racist for pointing this out...
Greece should not be shooting migrants to defend the EU border. The EU should deal with it
Until Labour move back to planet common sense they won’t win.
Stop digging, you are in a rhetorical and mental hole.
Just like Papal Indulgences, money does not make the sin go away.
We deserve better on PB.
Thank god we are out.
Does Greece have a plan?
It is not for Greece to have a plan. The migrants don't want to come to Greece. They want to come to the EU.
They are just stuck in Greece, by an accident of geography.
Go back to bragging how successful you are. We all love it when you speak highly of yourself.
As has happened those who are in awe of the EU hit out but I am not going to be silenced by criticism or insults
I am not “abandoning” Greece.
I am merely repositioning the facts to demonstrate that contra Big G and your own contention, the EU is not the root of all evil.
The referendum is over.
You both need to move on to figuring out why Wales is one of the most impoverished regions in Western Europe.
?????!!
Not surprised EU countries are shooting them - nor would I condemn them.
On the economic side, it's more tricky. Here are some suggestions for the UK government:
- Suspend the requirement for Universal Credit claimants to search for jobs. There aren't gonna be any jobs to search for until this is over. That will help tide over those dependent on benefits, whose income is guaranteed by the state so won't be otherwise affected.
- Defer PAYE and NI payments by companies to help their cashflow, which in turn will help them continue to pay staff and avoid firms falling into insolvency.
- Extend the Employment Allowance to help with the costs of keeping staff on.
- As already discussed, pay statutory sick pay straightaway.
- Cancel business rates for the duration of the crisis.
- We also need to find a way to help gig economy workers. That's a tricky one to implement quickly, but I think it has to be some kind of emergency payment to cover lost income.
These kinds of measures will be extremely expensive, but I don't think there's much choice, and it will be expensive not to take them.
That news fatigue is going to be a real problem when they have to pull out the really big policy guns .... and we won't have many shots of those to fire.
Pause.
Ah, my coat...
Oddly enough the economics are more frightening than the medical
Look, I agree that the way the EU operates leaves Italy and Greece on the front line, with f*ck all support from the Germans and those they protect. And if I was in Italy or Greece, I'd feel pretty aggrieved by that.
But I'm struggling to think anything of the EU right now. I'm kind of distracted by other things.
The North, in large part a Liverpool exurb and more remotely a tourist report.
The Middle, a remote rural fastness.
The South, a moderately prosperous capital with a massive ex-industrial overhang in the form of some of the poorest areas in Europe (ie the Valleys).
Agriculture has always been marginal due to the hilly land. Industry is now dead, and is not coming back. There are only VERY small pockets where industries are able to compete nationally, let alone internationally.
On top of this, the dead hand of Labour (but not just Labour) have serially mismanaged social services, notably health and education, and demonstrated an absolute poverty of ambition for what Wales could be and should be.
Where is Wales’s national investment bank?
How does Cardiff University fare on international league tables, and as a research hub?
How well do Welsh students perform in maths and science?
How well do transport links facilitate Cardiff’s and Wrexham’s employee catchment areas?
Etc
But Turkey at the moment... is not working out as well as it might. Someone needs to tell them that they are not the Ottoman Empire any more, and firmly at that. I do not see a future role for their current President either.
The Republican mayor of Sterling Heights, Michigan, a key battleground state, is voting for Joe Biden in Michigan's Democratic primary on Tuesday after supporting President Donald Trump in 2016, telling CNN that his decision is about wanting "basic human decency" in a president.
The EU, Greece and others have to stop shooting migrants
Covid 19 is taking all the band width when other very serious issues need attention
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/10/coronavirus-update-latest-italy-shutdown-lockdown-who-pandemic-outbreak-quarantine-uk-cases-usa-america-australia-live-news-updates?page=with:block-5e67ea108f08c2df6d276fae#block-5e67ea108f08c2df6d276fae
It is a colony of England. Its masters extract the wealth, and take it to England. Its resources are stolen by English companies.
England dumps rubbish in Wales. From the radioactive mud dumped in Cardiff Bay, to English fascists like Nick Griffin, to serial offenders and problem families dumped by Birmingham or Liverpool Council in cheap Welsh social housing.
England created a sham administration in Cardiff Bay. In Labour's ramshackle government, truth is whatever the third sector or the lobbyists decide best serves the interests of the Labour placemen. It is a cess-pit of corruption and treachery.
Wales is a retirement and recreation area for England, a dumping ground for England’s problems. And the idiotic Welsh Labour Government provides a pot of gold for every English crook and shyster looking to make easy money.
Wales need to look to Scotland, where they kicked out their Labour stooge government that ran the country in English interests.
Wales need to look to Ireland -- a confident country about to be reunited.
There can be a better future for Wales.