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  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    TGOHF666 said:

    Lisa Nandy just killed her political career on GMB.

    How - what did she say?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, we could instead spend money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    Except that's scientifically impossible. We don't know what the "next" pandemic is going to be which is why its the next one. It'd take more than £6 billion to develop a TARDIS required to make your plan work.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    In other news international flights continue in and out of Milan Malpensa and every other Italian airport, but do be careful not to shake hands with your best friend when you meet at the South pole.
    It is just remarkable: https://www.milanomalpensa-airport.com/en/flights/departures
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TGOHF666 said:

    Lisa Nandy just killed her political career on GMB.

    Did she say something sane?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT @Anabobazina

    We have allocated people to the office / DR / WFH as a contingency plan. We have not triggered the plan because guidance is it is a one way valve - once people are formally WFH they are there for the duration of the disease (to avoid cross contamination)

    FPT @Luckyguy1983

    Doctors can prescribe any approved drug on an “off label” basis (ie for a non approved indication) that they like
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited March 2020

    Even there the tweeter says "same sorts" which is subtly different from "the same people".

    I've not watched either video because it is 3am and Cheltenham starts in a few hours. Is the editing unfair? Has Boris been hoist by his own petard after CCHQ was caught doing the same thing to Keir Starmer last year?
    Last I checked two wrongs dont make a right. Nor are two wrongs always equal.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    In other news international flights continue in and out of Milan Malpensa and every other Italian airport, but do be careful not to shake hands with your best friend when you meet at the South pole.
    LOL.

    Plus my personal bellwether - the L*nd*n *nd*rg**nd.

    Meanwhile I am self isolating along with several thousand like minded folk this week in a distant and therefore surely safe spa town in Gloucestershire.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Just on R4 that Italian government has advised that all tourists returning from anywhere in Italy should self-isolate in their home country for two weeks.

    Barnesian?

    Which would seem sensible.

    I note Hancock was asked directly about this yesterday, and completely avoided (or completely missed the point of) the question with some crap about temperature testing not being diagnostic...
    Will Austria allow Barnesian across the border to catch his flight in Innsbruck? If I were Barnesian I would have fleed Italy by now and spent the last few days of my skiing holiday in Austria. Maybe he has.
    He's close enough to get across on skis, although his suitcases might have to be left behind.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Charles said:

    FPT @Anabobazina

    We have allocated people to the office / DR / WFH as a contingency plan. We have not triggered the plan because guidance is it is a one way valve - once people are formally WFH they are there for the duration of the disease (to avoid cross contamination)

    FPT @Luckyguy1983

    Doctors can prescribe any approved drug on an “off label” basis (ie for a non approved indication) that they like

    Thanks Charles.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Basically every government in the world: Shall we try doing what that one country that's not like the others is doing, since it's not all that costly or disruptive? Nah, let's just wash our hands and see how things go.
    Indeed.

    And let's gather 1/4 million people together at a race course just because we're a bit frightened to cancel it.

    Utter and absolute insanity.
    Bit of your usual grandstanding , it is four days and roughly 50K a day so not quite the way you put it as 1/4 million.
    And as the Chief Medical Officer said yesterday it makes little difference for transmission if there's people outside in a 70,000 seater stadium or inside in a pub or church, if they're not isolating they would spread it to a comparable number of people either way.
    Yes, any behind-closed-doors sporting event needs to go on free-to-air TV, otherwise everyone just congregates in pubs or bookies to watch.
    There is a difference though. People go to their local pub to watch football rather than travel from Bradford to Liverpool to watch it live (and that's a "Home supporter"). The spread throughout the country, from hotspot to hotspot, would be significantly slower.
    And there's a massive international element to something like Cheltenham which means thousands of those in attendance have been through airports, in close proximity in planes etc which I suspect means that the "average" of maybe 1 infected person is probably not meaningful. I think it is a mistake but hopefully not too an expensive one.

    But if we are really going to slow things down we are going to need to do more than wash our hands of the problem.
    Cheltenham is mostly British and Irish people
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I am shocked I tell you...shocked it wasn't the dog that got paid...

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1237071903866499072?s=20

    Why shouldn’t a celebrity charge for their time? It should be up to them if they wish to donate their services to a charity or not.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    CD13 said:

    I've just told my daughter (who lives in Sydney) to stop fighting over toilet rolls. It looks embarrassing. My granny used squares of the Daily Express in her outside toilet (the only one she ever had).

    Is it a sign of modernity to panic about everything? No matter how trivial. If you're under sixty and fit, it's not any sort of Armageddon.

    I have promised myself I am not going to do this again today but this really is silly. It's not about how ill you are going to get, its about whether you facilitate the spread to those who are seriously at risk, specifically older/sicker members of your own family. We need to slow down the spread. It really is that simple.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    In other news international flights continue in and out of Milan Malpensa and every other Italian airport, but do be careful not to shake hands with your best friend when you meet at the South pole.
    Some of these may be cargo-only flights, or flying empty thanks to EU rules on slot allocations (use it or lose it basis). There could also be foreigners evacuating Italy on board, who are happy to be quarantined at their destination.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    I took from the PM press conference today is we are being primed for Wednesday, then primed for another step say Friday.

    Good. Lots needs to be done. Park my points and look at the NHS. Park the large scale lack of beds and capacity. Look at the support staff responsible for keeping facilities clean and disease free. As has been pointed out these staff are largely on contracts that do not pay sick pay. Which means they will be in work spreading illness if the government isn't going to step on and pay them to self-quarantine.
    The government did that a week ago. SSP now available from day 1 not day 4.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Basically every government in the world: Shall we try doing what that one country that's not like the others is doing, since it's not all that costly or disruptive? Nah, let's just wash our hands and see how things go.
    Indeed.

    And let's gather 1/4 million people together at a race course just because we're a bit frightened to cancel it.

    Utter and absolute insanity.
    Bit of your usual grandstanding , it is four days and roughly 50K a day so not quite the way you put it as 1/4 million.
    And as the Chief Medical Officer said yesterday it makes little difference for transmission if there's people outside in a 70,000 seater stadium or inside in a pub or church, if they're not isolating they would spread it to a comparable number of people either way.
    Yes, any behind-closed-doors sporting event needs to go on free-to-air TV, otherwise everyone just congregates in pubs or bookies to watch.
    There is a difference though. People go to their local pub to watch football rather than travel from Bradford to Liverpool to watch it live (and that's a "Home supporter"). The spread throughout the country, from hotspot to hotspot, would be significantly slower.
    And there's a massive international element to something like Cheltenham which means thousands of those in attendance have been through airports, in close proximity in planes etc which I suspect means that the "average" of maybe 1 infected person is probably not meaningful. I think it is a mistake but hopefully not too an expensive one.

    But if we are really going to slow things down we are going to need to do more than wash our hands of the problem.
    Cheltenham is mostly British and Irish people
    Plus even Coronavirus will surely not be resistant to the likely 100% alcohol environment there.

    What did @Foxy say, 60%? Pah!
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    alex_ said:

    I haven’t been following closely but reports on what Italy are actually doing to combat this are very confusing. It sounds as if they are implementing grandiose measures (“self isolating the country”) cancelling football matches, closing schools) which may actually be doing very little to control it. Maybe this is what was meant by UK “govt sources” saying that Italy are pursuing “populist” measures (and very important to distinguish populist from “popular”) here, but not actually following the science or evidence on what is important.

    Travel is only for necessary and verifiable work purposes. Cafes, restaurants and bars have to shut at 6pm and before then you should keep a 1m distance from other customers. All corona positive people must self quarrantine.

    These and the measures you mentioned will have a noticeable effect on delaying the spread assuming they are actually practised. In Italy the hospitals are overrun. The more emergency cases that are pushed into the future the less deaths there will be.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,866
    Charles said:

    I am shocked I tell you...shocked it wasn't the dog that got paid...

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1237071903866499072?s=20

    Why shouldn’t a celebrity charge for their time? It should be up to them if they wish to donate their services to a charity or not.
    Also they went through a talent booking agency, whose literal job it is to get clients to pay money for famous people's services.

    "We asked people whose job it is to negotiate a fee for someone's services and were shocked when they came back with a high initial fee".

    Stop the presses.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    US a media lost the plot a long time ago, and the UK media are going down the same path.

    Most media types are too young to remember a proper pandemic, and they haven’t realised the need to act responsibly and convey the message - which is easier in the UK, as the scientists and politicians are saying exactly the same things.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    Probably because Trump is quite obviously not a Christian ?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Mr L.

    And fighting over toilet rolls counts as a measured response?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257
    edited March 2020
    Now with Korea.
    We will have 1000 cases by the weekend.
    https://twitter.com/markjhandley/status/1237144386569416712?s=21
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Christianity has survived worse than gentle mockery, fair or otherwise, I'm sure it will manage.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Just on R4 that Italian government has advised that all tourists returning from anywhere in Italy should self-isolate in their home country for two weeks.

    Barnesian?

    Which would seem sensible.

    I note Hancock was asked directly about this yesterday, and completely avoided (or completely missed the point of) the question with some crap about temperature testing not being diagnostic...
    Will Austria allow Barnesian across the border to catch his flight in Innsbruck? If I were Barnesian I would have fleed Italy by now and spent the last few days of my skiing holiday in Austria. Maybe he has.
    From the Guardian: "“Austrian travellers are urgently advised to return to Austria,” the foreign ministry said on its website on Tuesday [Today].
    So at the moment it looks like it should be possible.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, we could instead spend money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    Except that's scientifically impossible. We don't know what the "next" pandemic is going to be which is why its the next one. It'd take more than £6 billion to develop a TARDIS required to make your plan work.
    Yeah we don't know exactly what it will be. But with even a fraction of 6bn quid we could cover quite a few bases and be more ready next time. We knew that SARS and MERS were coronaviruses.

    "“Had we not set the SARS-vaccine-research program aside, we would have had a lot more of this foundational work that we could apply to this new, closely related virus, ”
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    Quite. As there are about 2 billion Christians in the world you can safely conclude that between them they do a bit more than earnestly bow their heads; just as Parliament manages to do a little more than begin each day with prayers.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    Because it doesn't do anything.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Basically every government in the world: Shall we try doing what that one country that's not like the others is doing, since it's not all that costly or disruptive? Nah, let's just wash our hands and see how things go.
    Indeed.

    And let's gather 1/4 million people together at a race course just because we're a bit frightened to cancel it.

    Utter and absolute insanity.
    Bit of your usual grandstanding , it is four days and roughly 50K a day so not quite the way you put it as 1/4 million.
    And as the Chief Medical Officer said yesterday it makes little difference for transmission if there's people outside in a 70,000 seater stadium or inside in a pub or church, if they're not isolating they would spread it to a comparable number of people either way.
    You're supposed to close the pub as well...

    PS I don't know but I'd have thought the contact tracing would be way easier with the pub or church.
    Close the pubs?! Impossible! An outrageous suggestion.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171
    We need to know how many people have died from coronavirus who didn't have any serious underlying medical conditions. So far none in the UK according to reports.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, the govt should instead spend much more money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    How do you develop a vaccine for a pandemic virus that doesn’t yet exist? Also, I doubt the Government are operating “on the hoof”. The plans they are implementing will have been developed and refined over many decades. That is why we are lucky that we have a Government prepared to listen and follow those plans, rather than try and substitute their own ideas. The politicians job in these circumstances is in many ways to help sell the actions that are (or aren’t as not deemed currently necessary) being taken. And not undermine them - see America.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Christianity has survived worse than gentle mockery, fair or otherwise, I'm sure it will manage.
    Oh hondootedly. Just that there is a variety of standards.

    Substitute "people who like pineapple on pizza" for Christians in a whole range of situations and see how that reads.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Must have slipped into a parallel universe, I agree with O'Flynn on something!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, we could instead spend money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    Except that's scientifically impossible. We don't know what the "next" pandemic is going to be which is why its the next one. It'd take more than £6 billion to develop a TARDIS required to make your plan work.
    It shouldn't require the benefit of hindsight to realise that the 2005 effort to develop a SARS vaccine (alongside other SARS research) should not have been defunded by governments just because the outbreak was contained.

    We had two coronavirus transmissions (SARS & MERS) from other species that we got away with, and all responsible scientists were warning it was only a matter of time...
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    CD13 said:

    I've just told my daughter (who lives in Sydney) to stop fighting over toilet rolls. It looks embarrassing. My granny used squares of the Daily Express in her outside toilet (the only one she ever had).

    Is it a sign of modernity to panic about everything? No matter how trivial. If you're under sixty and fit, it's not any sort of Armageddon.

    It is a sign of modernity to spread the panic of a few quickly around the world via social media, causing an exponential infection rate of panic.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Mr L,

    I'm in my seventies, My brother is a year younger but has severe COPD. I spoke to him yesterday and he didn't seem worried. However he was amused by some of the panic-obsessed reactions.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Monkeys said:
    This point gets bandied about a lot, but it's utterly meaningless when you need 50-100x as many beds. Doubling it would be a drop in the ocean, and a waste of resources to have had them and not needed them for the past years.
    I guess it's a view that this is 'utterly meaningless'.
    Adifferent view is that the existing capacities will in fact have to be multiplied, mostly not to the existing high standards, but as makeshift emergency solutions.
    And that this will be more easy the bigger the base that you can start from.
    Having 8,000 beds vs 4,000 will make no difference if hundreds of thousands need one.
    It will make a difference to 4,000 people. And the aggregate numbers will be a bit higher.
    As I said, a rounding error. If there was a routine need for many more critical care beds, I could see an argument for increasing them. To double the number just for spare capacity in case something like this doesn't seem sensible, especially given that the NHS only has a finite budget.
    That's the crucial point, of course.
    To have 4.5 times the capacity we have to pay roughly 3 times as much as you as % of GDP.
    2017 (most recent I found quickly)

    U.K. 9.6%
    Germany 11.7%

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Must have slipped into a parallel universe, I agree with O'Flynn on something!
    There is a distinct overlap between those two categories, though.
    *ministers*...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    In other news international flights continue in and out of Milan Malpensa and every other Italian airport, but do be careful not to shake hands with your best friend when you meet at the South pole.
    Some of these may be cargo-only flights, or flying empty thanks to EU rules on slot allocations (use it or lose it basis). There could also be foreigners evacuating Italy on board, who are happy to be quarantined at their destination.
    Quite a few are Easyjet and Ryanair. Of course they may not be very full but the time to treat such arrivals with mandatory confinement for 14 days has surely arrived.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, we could instead spend money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    Except that's scientifically impossible. We don't know what the "next" pandemic is going to be which is why its the next one. It'd take more than £6 billion to develop a TARDIS required to make your plan work.
    It shouldn't require the benefit of hindsight to realise that the 2005 effort to develop a SARS vaccine (alongside other SARS research) should not have been defunded by governments just because the outbreak was contained.

    We had two coronavirus transmissions (SARS & MERS) from other species that we got away with, and all responsible scientists were warning it was only a matter of time...
    Except its not scientifically possible to do a coronavirus vaccine that halts all coronavirus any more than its possible to do an influenza vaccine or common cold vaccine that does all of them.

    Every strain needs its own vaccine developing, which needs rigorous testing.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    I'm in my seventies, My brother is a year younger but has severe COPD. I spoke to him yesterday and he didn't seem worried. However he was amused by some of the panic-obsessed reactions.

    On an individual level it is important that both you and your brother start taking this very seriously indeed. Self isolation for your brother would be the bare minimum. You might want to consider it yourself too.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, the govt should instead spend much more money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    How do you develop a vaccine for a pandemic virus that doesn’t yet exist? Also, I doubt the Government are operating “on the hoof”. The plans they are implementing will have been developed and refined over many decades. That is why we are lucky that we have a Government prepared to listen and follow those plans, rather than try and substitute their own ideas. The politicians job in these circumstances is in many ways to help sell the actions that are (or aren’t as not deemed currently necessary) being taken. And not undermine them - see America.
    Sorry, obviously my post wasn't clear. I meant do more research into related viruses and then we are ready when a new type comes up.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
    If it was funny, why not?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    CD13 said:

    Mr L.

    And fighting over toilet rolls counts as a measured response?

    No of course not. It was your "hardly Armageddon" comment that triggered my response.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    Yes, that is what it is very likely to be like here in a fortnight. North Italy has an excellent health care system, dont fall for lazy stereotypes. You either get ahead of the game, or you wait to act. The Italians look to be chasing the game, but I hope that the measures yesterday stop further spread within that country and beyond.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Christianity has survived worse than gentle mockery, fair or otherwise, I'm sure it will manage.
    Oh hondootedly. Just that there is a variety of standards.

    Substitute "people who like pineapple on pizza" for Christians in a whole range of situations and see how that reads.
    I wasnt disagreeing with the premise that people mock christianity in a way they would not with other faiths for example, I think it's true. I just dont get an attack of the vapours about it. Much as I respect people practicing their faith there are those who act like its the end of the world if that faith is mocked, and I happen to think faith, including the Christian faith which has been tested over thousands of years, is tougher than that.

    So I'm quite content with how it reads, thank you. People are too sensitive about faith, and too insecure about its ability to endure mockery.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Mr L,

    It may be Armageddon, but it's not the end of the world.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist that.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Christianity has survived worse than gentle mockery, fair or otherwise, I'm sure it will manage.
    Oh hondootedly. Just that there is a variety of standards.

    Substitute "people who like pineapple on pizza" for Christians in a whole range of situations and see how that reads.
    I wasnt disagreeing with the premise that people mock christianity in a way they would not with other faiths for example, I think it's true. I just dont get an attack of the vapours about it. Much as I respect people practicing their faith there are those who act like its the end of the world if that faith is mocked, and I happen to think faith, including the Christian faith which has been tested over thousands of years, is tougher than that.

    So I'm quite content with how it reads, thank you. People are too sensitive about faith, and too insecure about its ability to endure mockery.
    Nothing should be above mockery.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
    I think I would dismantle my pen and blast the stupid twat with a pellet of chewed paper.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, we could instead spend money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    Except that's scientifically impossible. We don't know what the "next" pandemic is going to be which is why its the next one. It'd take more than £6 billion to develop a TARDIS required to make your plan work.
    It shouldn't require the benefit of hindsight to realise that the 2005 effort to develop a SARS vaccine (alongside other SARS research) should not have been defunded by governments just because the outbreak was contained.

    We had two coronavirus transmissions (SARS & MERS) from other species that we got away with, and all responsible scientists were warning it was only a matter of time...
    I agree with you, but... Each vaccine has to be developed for each virus, so it will be impossible to have a vaccine for a new virus ready to mass produce on demand. Of course the background research and having the infrastructure ready to cope with a new viral outbreak should not have been cut back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    Now with Korea.
    We will have 1000 cases by the weekend.
    https://twitter.com/markjhandley/status/1237144386569416712?s=21

    If you unpacked that graph with a normal Y axis, I reckon it would show something a bit different. There’s an underlying assumption that we will track the same exponential path, and the graph has been designed to make that point.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    It may be Armageddon, but it's not the end of the world.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist that.

    It's Coronageddon!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
    If it was funny, why not?
    And even if it wasnt funny if someone found it funny thats their right. Itd be a bit dickish to do it to someone's face but plenty of scope to mock non religious meeting techniques. I was at one when they got everyone to do a jumping jack to get the blood flowing.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    rkrkrk said:

    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, the govt should instead spend much more money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    How do you develop a vaccine for a pandemic virus that doesn’t yet exist? Also, I doubt the Government are operating “on the hoof”. The plans they are implementing will have been developed and refined over many decades. That is why we are lucky that we have a Government prepared to listen and follow those plans, rather than try and substitute their own ideas. The politicians job in these circumstances is in many ways to help sell the actions that are (or aren’t as not deemed currently necessary) being taken. And not undermine them - see America.
    Sorry, obviously my post wasn't clear. I meant do more research into related viruses and then we are ready when a new type comes up.
    As Alex says, the Govt "are implementing will have been developed and refined over many decades".

    That will be the result of research -- research into epidemiology, mathematical modelling of spreads of diseases, simulations of the economic effect of different measures, and so on.

    We are ready. It is not realistic to be able to escape the emergence of a new virus with zero deaths, or to have a vaccine ready almost immediately, but it is realistic to be prepared, and to understand the effects of different measures, and to have simulation codes ready to run for different scenarios, and to implement policy based on that evidence.

    And, as far as I can see, that is what has been done & is being done.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
    If it was funny, why not?
    I haven't seen any mockery of Presidential prayer sessions that is (or tries to be) funny. More just about how terrible it is. There are plenty of things to criticise Trump and his inner circle for. I don't think this is one of them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    eristdoof said:

    CD13 said:

    I've just told my daughter (who lives in Sydney) to stop fighting over toilet rolls. It looks embarrassing. My granny used squares of the Daily Express in her outside toilet (the only one she ever had).

    Is it a sign of modernity to panic about everything? No matter how trivial. If you're under sixty and fit, it's not any sort of Armageddon.

    It is a sign of modernity to spread the panic of a few quickly around the world via social media, causing an exponential infection rate of panic.
    Not Armageddon, but quite possibly the worst real threat for a very long time. Certainly since AIDS, maybe since World War 2. We have been a blessed run of generations, a run that in the grand scheme of things is likely to continue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    eristdoof said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, we could instead spend money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    Except that's scientifically impossible. We don't know what the "next" pandemic is going to be which is why its the next one. It'd take more than £6 billion to develop a TARDIS required to make your plan work.
    It shouldn't require the benefit of hindsight to realise that the 2005 effort to develop a SARS vaccine (alongside other SARS research) should not have been defunded by governments just because the outbreak was contained.

    We had two coronavirus transmissions (SARS & MERS) from other species that we got away with, and all responsible scientists were warning it was only a matter of time...
    I agree with you, but... Each vaccine has to be developed for each virus, so it will be impossible to have a vaccine for a new virus ready to mass produce on demand. Of course the background research and having the infrastructure ready to cope with a new viral outbreak should not have been cut back.
    I'm well aware of the particular vaccine point.
    But we do not even have a reliable animal model, fifteen years later !
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    edited March 2020

    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    I'm in my seventies, My brother is a year younger but has severe COPD. I spoke to him yesterday and he didn't seem worried. However he was amused by some of the panic-obsessed reactions.

    On an individual level it is important that both you and your brother start taking this very seriously indeed. Self isolation for your brother would be the bare minimum. You might want to consider it yourself too.
    I Agree. People with COPD are high risk, and people over 68 are also high risk. If I were your brother I would be taking much more strict measures that I am at the moment.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    algarkirk said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    Quite. As there are about 2 billion Christians in the world you can safely conclude that between them they do a bit more than earnestly bow their heads; just as Parliament manages to do a little more than begin each day with prayers.

    Not last year.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    Yes, that is what it is very likely to be like here in a fortnight. North Italy has an excellent health care system, dont fall for lazy stereotypes. You either get ahead of the game, or you wait to act. The Italians look to be chasing the game, but I hope that the measures yesterday stop further spread within that country and beyond.
    So you were firmly of the belief that PHE were doing well last week. Sounds like doubts might be creeping in now? I've fluctuated but unfortunately back into the negative now. Too slow.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Schools and colleges closed from tomorrow in Madrid and two other areas. Expecting more draconian measures where there are hot spots.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,125
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
    I think I would dismantle my pen and blast the stupid twat with a pellet of chewed paper.
    which would be fair enough. but specifically christian (or hindu/muslim/buddhist etc) prayers in an official government meeting are a lot worse. unless you want to live in a theocracy
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Waste of time discussing science and evidence with appartchiks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Big Pharma needs to pull their fingers out.

    I think they have limited incentive to respond until they know there is a big market for sales. That's obviously not ideal from a societal perspective.

    My view would be that rather than blowing billions on defence toys we don't need and which don't keep us safe, the govt should instead spend much more money researching the next pandemic.

    As a bonus, if we already had a vaccine for coronavirus we could probably now make our money back by licensing it cheaply to the rest of the world.

    As a silly back of the envelope comparison, 2 aircraft carriers cost 6 billion quid, plus 600m in an operating costs. The medical research council spends around 800m a year on research. Let's nearly double their budget and be more prepared next time.
    How do you develop a vaccine for a pandemic virus that doesn’t yet exist? Also, I doubt the Government are operating “on the hoof”. The plans they are implementing will have been developed and refined over many decades. That is why we are lucky that we have a Government prepared to listen and follow those plans, rather than try and substitute their own ideas. The politicians job in these circumstances is in many ways to help sell the actions that are (or aren’t as not deemed currently necessary) being taken. And not undermine them - see America.
    There is also the question of bulk manufacturing capacity for vaccines.
    It is very expensive to maintain unused, and when you do need it, very difficult to build out quickly.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    US a media lost the plot a long time ago, and the UK media are going down the same path.

    Most media types are too young to remember a proper pandemic, and they haven’t realised the need to act responsibly and convey the message - which is easier in the UK, as the scientists and politicians are saying exactly the same things.
    My personal annoyance is how they breathlessly seek out and report on (usually retired) “experts” criticising “the Government’s” approach. Implying that the Govt is just Boris and co sitting in a room making it up, fight to keep “the experts” out of the process.

    It’s something that’s fine during eg. an election but completely inappropriate in current situation.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,125
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Christianity has survived worse than gentle mockery, fair or otherwise, I'm sure it will manage.
    Oh hondootedly. Just that there is a variety of standards.

    Substitute "people who like pineapple on pizza" for Christians in a whole range of situations and see how that reads.
    I wasnt disagreeing with the premise that people mock christianity in a way they would not with other faiths for example, I think it's true. I just dont get an attack of the vapours about it. Much as I respect people practicing their faith there are those who act like its the end of the world if that faith is mocked, and I happen to think faith, including the Christian faith which has been tested over thousands of years, is tougher than that.

    So I'm quite content with how it reads, thank you. People are too sensitive about faith, and too insecure about its ability to endure mockery.
    When Tulsi Gabbard becomes president and starts meetings with Hindu prayers we'll have a chance to see if anyone mocks her
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Given the unscheduled closure of schools is counterproductive why would that be sensible? Having children contained within the school environment is better than having them as a diaspora looked after by grandparents etc putting the elderly at more risk.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Waste of time discussing science and evidence with appartchiks.
    I disagree. Bad arguments should be confronted.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Laying Trump for Rep nominee is a low risk lay. I mentioned this two weeks ago - worth repeating I think.

    Is it? How do you figure?
    Value at the odds I think. I`ve layed him at 1.08 and 1.09. He may choose not to run (if he thinks he won`t win), he may develop health problems (virus or other).
    I think it’s actuarial only. I can’t see him not running.

    I’d only lay him at 1.05 or 1.06 or beneath.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Communion is a bad idea at the best of times - perhaps why Catholic Italy, Spain, Germany and France have spread so quickly ?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214


    Except its not scientifically possible to do a coronavirus vaccine that halts all coronavirus any more than its possible to do an influenza vaccine or common cold vaccine that does all of them.

    Every strain needs its own vaccine developing, which needs rigorous testing.

    I'm not a scientist, but I don't think that is known or even accepted by scientists.

    E.g.
    https://www.livescience.com/universal-flu-vaccine-closer.html
    https://globalbiodefense.com/2020/03/02/senator-markey-introduces-legislation-to-invest-1-billion-in-universal-coronavirus-vaccine/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    CD13 said:

    Mr L,

    It may be Armageddon, but it's not the end of the world.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist that.

    I could stay awake just to hear you breathing.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Waste of time discussing science and evidence with appartchiks.
    I disagree. Bad arguments should be confronted.
    I 100% agree. Which is why I agree with scientists and not the deluded who think closing schools is evidence based. Hint: It's not!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited March 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Given the unscheduled closure of schools is counterproductive why would that be sensible? Having children contained within the school environment is better than having them as a diaspora looked after by grandparents etc putting the elderly at more risk.
    At this stage very few, if any, are infected.
    That is precisely the point.

    If you delay such measures until the escalating number of cases make it inevitable, then what you say applies many times over. A concerted effort to stop this thing in its tracks now - given that government itself seems to accept such escalation is inevitable - would be every bit as, almost certainly more effective.

    And the Easter holiday starts shortly, so a two week break starting next week would become a four week break.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    edited March 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    Communion is a bad idea at the best of times - perhaps why Catholic Italy, Spain, Germany and France have spread so quickly ?

    Eire and the West of Scotland have a he potential for the same effect.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    edited March 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Waste of time discussing science and evidence with appartchiks.
    I disagree. Bad arguments should be confronted.
    Even if the original "appartchik" does not change his view, the other listeners/readers will be able to weigh up the issues.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Just on R4 that Italian government has advised that all tourists returning from anywhere in Italy should self-isolate in their home country for two weeks.

    Barnesian?

    Which would seem sensible.

    I note Hancock was asked directly about this yesterday, and completely avoided (or completely missed the point of) the question with some crap about temperature testing not being diagnostic...
    Will Austria allow Barnesian across the border to catch his flight in Innsbruck? If I were Barnesian I would have fleed Italy by now and spent the last few days of my skiing holiday in Austria. Maybe he has.
    He's close enough to get across on skis, although his suitcases might have to be left behind.
    On Her European Commissioner’s Secret Service.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    In other news international flights continue in and out of Milan Malpensa and every other Italian airport, but do be careful not to shake hands with your best friend when you meet at the South pole.
    Some of these may be cargo-only flights, or flying empty thanks to EU rules on slot allocations (use it or lose it basis). There could also be foreigners evacuating Italy on board, who are happy to be quarantined at their destination.
    Quite a few are Easyjet and Ryanair. Of course they may not be very full but the time to treat such arrivals with mandatory confinement for 14 days has surely arrived.
    Yes, I’d now be quarantining arrivals from northern Italy in the same way as those from China.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    kamski said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Yes. We should expand that to a free hit on all superstitions.

    If someone wanted to start a meeting by checking a horoscope then I'd hope that'd get mocked too.
    If someone started their meeting with eyes being closed and a moment of mindfulness, would you mock that? That's essentially what prayer is.
    I think I would dismantle my pen and blast the stupid twat with a pellet of chewed paper.
    which would be fair enough. but specifically christian (or hindu/muslim/buddhist etc) prayers in an official government meeting are a lot worse. unless you want to live in a theocracy
    No they aren't, unless you're a bigot. I'm not a Muslim, but if I were attending a meeting of Muslims, I'd be more than happy to close my eyes with them, pray to my God or no God, and be happy and grateful for their well-wishes. In Syria, the Muslim president attends the Orthodox Church at Easter. That's what being tolerant is about.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Will be interesting if this sinks him. Mind you, watching the prayer circle when VP Pence took "command" the hicks will be praying that Trump brings them salvation as they start to die

    Why do people keep on mocking this point?

    It’s not uncommon for Christians to pray for wisdom before a meeting.

    That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing they are doing
    No, although in this case it does appear to be the only thing Pence and Co are actually doing.
    Maybe but generally people get a free hit on Christians and expressions of Christianity.
    Christianity has survived worse than gentle mockery, fair or otherwise, I'm sure it will manage.
    Oh hondootedly. Just that there is a variety of standards.

    Substitute "people who like pineapple on pizza" for Christians in a whole range of situations and see how that reads.
    I wasnt disagreeing with the premise that people mock christianity in a way they would not with other faiths for example, I think it's true. I just dont get an attack of the vapours about it. Much as I respect people practicing their faith there are those who act like its the end of the world if that faith is mocked, and I happen to think faith, including the Christian faith which has been tested over thousands of years, is tougher than that.

    So I'm quite content with how it reads, thank you. People are too sensitive about faith, and too insecure about its ability to endure mockery.
    You're very serious this morning.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Given the unscheduled closure of schools is counterproductive why would that be sensible? Having children contained within the school environment is better than having them as a diaspora looked after by grandparents etc putting the elderly at more risk.
    It really isn't if they end up infecting each other in the playground and then bring the virus home to their families. From what we know they may well do so even if they are asymptomatic themselves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited March 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Waste of time discussing science and evidence with appartchiks.
    I disagree. Bad arguments should be confronted.
    I 100% agree. Which is why I agree with scientists and not the deluded who think closing schools is evidence based. Hint: It's not!
    And I note you didn't even address the first two points I made.
    Which were direct replies to your original question.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Just on R4 that Italian government has advised that all tourists returning from anywhere in Italy should self-isolate in their home country for two weeks.

    Barnesian?

    Which would seem sensible.

    I note Hancock was asked directly about this yesterday, and completely avoided (or completely missed the point of) the question with some crap about temperature testing not being diagnostic...
    Will Austria allow Barnesian across the border to catch his flight in Innsbruck? If I were Barnesian I would have fleed Italy by now and spent the last few days of my skiing holiday in Austria. Maybe he has.
    He's close enough to get across on skis, although his suitcases might have to be left behind.
    Pretty much what Ötzi was trying to do.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    An Italian doctor’s advice...

    (Thread advising stricter measures sooner than later, which goes more than a bit eadric... though from direct experience.)
    https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/1237142891077697538

    Yes, that is what it is very likely to be like here in a fortnight. North Italy has an excellent health care system, dont fall for lazy stereotypes. You either get ahead of the game, or you wait to act. The Italians look to be chasing the game, but I hope that the measures yesterday stop further spread within that country and beyond.
    So you were firmly of the belief that PHE were doing well last week. Sounds like doubts might be creeping in now? I've fluctuated but unfortunately back into the negative now. Too slow.
    I think it's tricky so I'm reluctant to criticise, but I don't like the very clear suggestion from the Chief Scientist yesterday that they're holding back some measures because people would get impatient if they lasted too long. There I think a strong political lead is needed - Boris could use some of his considerable capital on it and come out ahead. "We are acting now to prevent numerous avoidable additional deaths. It will mean a long period of inconvenience for many. Put up with it - you are protecting yourself and fellow-Britons from dying unnecessarily." I expect he'll do just that in a few days, but IMO he should get on with it.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214



    As Alex says, the Govt "are implementing will have been developed and refined over many decades".

    That will be the result of research -- research into epidemiology, mathematical modelling of spreads of diseases, simulations of the economic effect of different measures, and so on.

    We are ready. It is not realistic to be able to escape the emergence of a new virus with zero deaths, or to have a vaccine ready almost immediately, but it is realistic to be prepared, and to understand the effects of different measures, and to have simulation codes ready to run for different scenarios, and to implement policy based on that evidence.

    And, as far as I can see, that is what has been done & is being done.

    I have confidence in the UK public health system. But we could have been more prepared if we'd been funding research into coronaviruses properly and not abandoned it when it was contained previously. 3 novel coronaviruses in 18 years I think.

    The same thing is happening with Zika. Johnson and Johnson have a potential vaccine, but they've stopped testing because the outbreak is slowing and there may not be much of a market by the time it's ready.

    It seems obvious to me that we want that research to continue, the incentives are wrong and we need to somehow reform the system. Public money for public goods.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    edited March 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    As a general point, I can understand the government’s reluctance to rush into shutting everything down immediately.
    But their refusal to take even low cost measures right now is just stupid.

    Such as? They are taking low cost and even high cost measures right now. They're just not hyperventilating panicking headless chickens.
    Such as advising everyone with a respiratory infection to self isolate....
    Ministers don't seem to have noticed the medical reports from Germany of the numerous confirmed Covid cases which originally presented as upper respiratory tract infections.

    Such as advising ALL travellers from Italy to self-isolate for a fortnight...

    These are not costly measures, or hyperventilating.

    One might go on to note that when the Chief Medical Officer says that thousands of cases are almost inevitable, advancing plans for suspending large public events - and considering shutting schools next week until after Easter - would be sensible.
    Given the unscheduled closure of schools is counterproductive why would that be sensible? Having children contained within the school environment is better than having them as a diaspora looked after by grandparents etc putting the elderly at more risk.
    It is not as clear cut as you make out. Most school children are not at school for 24 hours a day, and if the grandparents live nearby, the children will meet their grandparents regularly anyway. The commuting aspect of day time at school and night time with the family spreads the virus more quickly than day and night with the family.

    Your point is valid, but is not the only factor in the argument.
This discussion has been closed.