I had been giving Johnson the benefit of any doubt over the Government's management of Covid19, to appoint where I would have agreed he was personally doing a decent job of managing the outbreak.
Unless this clip has been taken out of context his approach appears cavalier to the point of recklessness.
As for it being other people saying that, why bother? He must have thought it too!
Someone with a very clever use of editing and partial quoting. I would suggest it is simple dishonesty.
Here is the actual interview with the quote in it. From around 6 minutes 10 seconds in. Immediately after the quoted clip he makes some politician noises about a wonderful NHS and then goes back to the point saying that he believes it is better to take all the measures we can now to stop the peak being as difficult as it could be.
Having now seen the piece in its entirety, and it was difficult to follow, yes the twitter edit is dishonest. However Johnson is exposed in the full clip as being unable to think on his feet and appearing less informed than he should be. I can't imagine Cameron for example, bumbling along for 18 minutes like Boris did.
Bloody thing is half empty, but that half are sneezing and coughing like they've never heard of Covid-19....
How many are wearing masks? 0.1%?
This is the crazy thing. If everyone wore a mask infections would plummet. It's so simple, and it's one big reason Asia is handling this better than us. They all wear masks.
Western individualism is going to kill us.
Not seen a single mask yet.....
Went to London for a meeting earlier - all I heard from people on train, security outside my London office and people at meeting was .... the Virus
But not one mask seen
Can you actually buy them if you wanted to?
Yes, amazingly, you can. I got some more from amazon, ordered Friday, arrived this morning.
Dont really need the masks only go where I can sit outside and the supermarket is quiet. Only staff in ‘urgencies’ wearing masks out here. Nearest case 30 mins drive so no panic as yet.
Doesn't that mean that someone 30 minutes away caught it 14 days ago?
Well quite, the biggest risks at the moment are cruise returners especially US based cruises not aware of our aging population going skiing in Italy but I’m afraid even amongst the British there is still double kissing.
What kind of self-respecting Brit kisses as a greeting?
All those new treasury people relocated to Teeside are going to get a shock if they go around doing all that metropolitan continental stuff.
Most surprising to me is that there seem to be few cases in the London boroughs. You'd have thought that, with the number of visitors and general travel, London would be a real hotspot.
There is something rather odd about the way this virus spreads: it seems extremely contagious in the conditions of conferences and also patient-doctor transmission, and at things like funerals, but (as far as one can tell from the UK tracking) not so much on public transport, shopping or other places which you might have expected would be very significant.
Its easy to spot if there is a cluster around a conference or funeral, you have a confirmed list of attendees but impossible to spot that it was shared at a Sainsburys local or the Northern Line 843 between Bank and Kings Cross as there is no way of grouping the attendees together.
But if that was the explanation then you'd expect lots of random cases to pop up which couldn't be tracked, even in the very early stages of the virus arriving in a country. We're not seeing that much in the UK, we are seeing identifiable clusters.
Edit: You'd also expect to see a lot more cases in London, which was part of my reasoning.
Aren't there lots of random cases popping up? By defintion the outbreak is going to be chracterised by clusters, partly because atributable sources of infeection are being investigated, partly beacuse they are more newsworthy and partly because a clusted contains more positive cases than an isolated random positive case.
As to the "Why not in London" argument this could just be random chance. We are still only talking about 280 positives in the UK. If you choose 280 people at random from the UK, it is surprisingly likely that London ends up with just one or two cases. People find it difficult to pick out genuinely random patterns.
If contact on public transport, restaurants, theatres etc were a common vector of contagion, and given the fact that these early cases are largely driven by incoming travellers, then you wouldn't expect the cases to be randomly distributed, you'd expect London to be massively over-represented.
Most surprising to me is that there seem to be few cases in the London boroughs. You'd have thought that, with the number of visitors and general travel, London would be a real hotspot.
There is something rather odd about the way this virus spreads: it seems extremely contagious in the conditions of conferences and also patient-doctor transmission, and at things like funerals, but (as far as one can tell from the UK tracking) not so much on public transport, shopping or other places which you might have expected would be very significant.
Its easy to spot if there is a cluster around a conference or funeral, you have a confirmed list of attendees but impossible to spot that it was shared at a Sainsburys local or the Northern Line 843 between Bank and Kings Cross as there is no way of grouping the attendees together.
But if that was the explanation then you'd expect lots of random cases to pop up which couldn't be tracked, even in the very early stages of the virus arriving in a country. We're not seeing that much in the UK, we are seeing identifiable clusters.
Edit: You'd also expect to see a lot more cases in London, which was part of my reasoning.
I think it's quite hard to draw any good conclusions given the small numbers involved so far. Let's see what it looks like in a week's time.
Fantastic news, who said a year wasn't long enough for negotiations?
Britain has learned a lot and is approaching these negotiations much smarter than they did the WA negotiations under May.
Also showing how true it was that Britain holds the cards. We're the ones who can frame what deal we want and us beating the EU to the punch like this is brilliant.
Smarter? Really? You think ignoring the most basic of realities is smart?
I think Peter Foster has been a doom monger from the beginning and winding him up is a sign the government's on the right path.
Yeah yeah. Now how about actually reading his thread and engaging with the points?
The point is the UK has made the decision to leave and be independent, in fact and not just in name. The point is the UK government is telling businesses NOW to prepare and not in 10 months time with just a few weeks notice. The point is that the government is being clear and transparent with the ambitions and not seeking a "cake and eat it" approach much bemoaned (and rejected by the EU) under May. The point is that we are diverging.
Bloody thing is half empty, but that half are sneezing and coughing like they've never heard of Covid-19....
How many are wearing masks? 0.1%?
This is the crazy thing. If everyone wore a mask infections would plummet. It's so simple, and it's one big reason Asia is handling this better than us. They all wear masks.
Western individualism is going to kill us.
Not seen a single mask yet.....
Went to London for a meeting earlier - all I heard from people on train, security outside my London office and people at meeting was .... the Virus
But not one mask seen
Can you actually buy them if you wanted to?
Yes, amazingly, you can. I got some more from amazon, ordered Friday, arrived this morning.
Dont really need the masks only go where I can sit outside and the supermarket is quiet. Only staff in ‘urgencies’ wearing masks out here. Nearest case 30 mins drive so no panic as yet.
Doesn't that mean that someone 30 minutes away caught it 14 days ago?
Well quite, the biggest risks at the moment are cruise returners especially US based cruises not aware of our aging population going skiing in Italy but I’m afraid even amongst the British there is still double kissing.
What kind of self-respecting Brit kisses as a greeting?
Mainly females who haven’t seen each other since last week!
Carnival shares now worth just a third of what they were a few years ago.
I suspect the cruise ship industry won't recover for a very long time, if ever.
If that were the case the same could be said of air or train travel. I suspect they’ll have an atrocious year - or two - but will recover. Government mishandling of cruise ship outbreaks has played a significant role.
Most surprising to me is that there seem to be few cases in the London boroughs. You'd have thought that, with the number of visitors and general travel, London would be a real hotspot.
There is something rather odd about the way this virus spreads: it seems extremely contagious in the conditions of conferences and also patient-doctor transmission, and at things like funerals, but (as far as one can tell from the UK tracking) not so much on public transport, shopping or other places which you might have expected would be very significant.
Its easy to spot if there is a cluster around a conference or funeral, you have a confirmed list of attendees but impossible to spot that it was shared at a Sainsburys local or the Northern Line 843 between Bank and Kings Cross as there is no way of grouping the attendees together.
But if that was the explanation then you'd expect lots of random cases to pop up which couldn't be tracked, even in the very early stages of the virus arriving in a country. We're not seeing that much in the UK, we are seeing identifiable clusters.
Edit: You'd also expect to see a lot more cases in London, which was part of my reasoning.
Aren't there lots of random cases popping up? By defintion the outbreak is going to be chracterised by clusters, partly because atributable sources of infeection are being investigated, partly beacuse they are more newsworthy and partly because a clusted contains more positive cases than an isolated random positive case.
As to the "Why not in London" argument this could just be random chance. We are still only talking about 280 positives in the UK. If you choose 280 people at random from the UK, it is surprisingly likely that London ends up with just one or two cases. People find it difficult to pick out genuinely random patterns.
No, so far we don't have lots of random cases in this country. Almost all cases can be identified as either a recent traveller or in contact with someone who was known to have the disease.
Fantastic news, who said a year wasn't long enough for negotiations?
Britain has learned a lot and is approaching these negotiations much smarter than they did the WA negotiations under May.
Also showing how true it was that Britain holds the cards. We're the ones who can frame what deal we want and us beating the EU to the punch like this is brilliant.
Smarter? Really? You think ignoring the most basic of realities is smart?
Absolutely nothing is allowed to get in the way of Brexit dogma. This is the most ideologically driven government in the history of the United KIngdom. "What works" is simply not a consideration, even if it's things you want to do anyway.
The point is the UK has made the decision to leave and be independent, in fact and not just in name. The point is the UK government is telling businesses NOW to prepare and not in 10 months time with just a few weeks notice. The point is that the government is being clear and transparent with the ambitions and not seeking a "cake and eat it" approach much bemoaned (and rejected by the EU) under May. The point is that we are diverging.
In other words, you are saying the ignoring the most basic of realities is smart. It's a view, as they say, but I accept that you are right that the government is being consistent in its lunacy.
Am in Israel, wondering if I’ll get home. Rumour is the government is about to require a 14-day quarantine period for anyone entering the country. If people aren’t coming, the planes won’t fly in or, more important, out!!
You're a man of decent means and I think you're safer in Israel than the UK ? Enjoy the sunshine
Carnival shares now worth just a third of what they were a few years ago.
I suspect the cruise ship industry won't recover for a very long time, if ever.
If that were the case the same could be said of air or train travel. I suspect they’ll have an atrocious year - or two - but will recover. Government mishandling of cruise ship outbreaks has played a significant role.
Cruise ships are particularly bad for spreading infection, though - think of all those norovirus outbreaks.
Am in Israel, wondering if I’ll get home. Rumour is the government is about to require a 14-day quarantine period for anyone entering the country. If people aren’t coming, the planes won’t fly in or, more important, out!!
You're a man of decent means and I think you're safer in Israel than the UK ? Enjoy the sunshine
Er, he might have a few relatives, and even friends, back in the UK, who might miss him if he disappears for several months?
They might be happy...I have a feeling Mrs U might not be that sad if we do go into lock down for months and we get stranded in different locations. After I made her watch Westworld (after telling how amazing Season One was), I think she fears I might inflict Season 3 on her, because well it can't be as bad as Season Two right?
Most surprising to me is that there seem to be few cases in the London boroughs. You'd have thought that, with the number of visitors and general travel, London would be a real hotspot.
There is something rather odd about the way this virus spreads: it seems extremely contagious in the conditions of conferences and also patient-doctor transmission, and at things like funerals, but (as far as one can tell from the UK tracking) not so much on public transport, shopping or other places which you might have expected would be very significant.
Its easy to spot if there is a cluster around a conference or funeral, you have a confirmed list of attendees but impossible to spot that it was shared at a Sainsburys local or the Northern Line 843 between Bank and Kings Cross as there is no way of grouping the attendees together.
But if that was the explanation then you'd expect lots of random cases to pop up which couldn't be tracked, even in the very early stages of the virus arriving in a country. We're not seeing that much in the UK, we are seeing identifiable clusters.
Edit: You'd also expect to see a lot more cases in London, which was part of my reasoning.
Aren't there lots of random cases popping up? By defintion the outbreak is going to be chracterised by clusters, partly because atributable sources of infeection are being investigated, partly beacuse they are more newsworthy and partly because a clusted contains more positive cases than an isolated random positive case.
As to the "Why not in London" argument this could just be random chance. We are still only talking about 280 positives in the UK. If you choose 280 people at random from the UK, it is surprisingly likely that London ends up with just one or two cases. People find it difficult to pick out genuinely random patterns.
No, so far we don't have lots of random cases in this country. Almost all cases can be identified as either a recent traveller or in contact with someone who was known to have the disease.
Where are you getting such data I can see each case in Spain as it is anounced which community and town, age of individual and if travelled or been in close contact with travelers. I have not seen same for uk in recent days.
Dominic Lawson asks Trevor Phillips, the former head of the Commission for Racial Equality, about why he abandoned support for multiculturalism and what the reaction was.‘
Just listened to this again, four years after the first time. Absolutely brilliant, he is spot on.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
Carnival shares now worth just a third of what they were a few years ago.
I suspect the cruise ship industry won't recover for a very long time, if ever.
If that were the case the same could be said of air or train travel. I suspect they’ll have an atrocious year - or two - but will recover. Government mishandling of cruise ship outbreaks has played a significant role.
Cruise ships are particularly bad for spreading infection, though - think of all those norovirus outbreaks.
Another one that comes down to basic personal hygiene....
Fantastic news, who said a year wasn't long enough for negotiations?
Britain has learned a lot and is approaching these negotiations much smarter than they did the WA negotiations under May.
Also showing how true it was that Britain holds the cards. We're the ones who can frame what deal we want and us beating the EU to the punch like this is brilliant.
That's a joke post, right? Negotiation isn't just giving the other side a documnet and saying 'sign there'.
You're saying that despite the guaranteed recession, the plague about to sweep the US because of its inept leadership, and the global collapse in commodity prices, share prices will be just fine?
Trump was saying this a few days ago. He tweeted that the US stock market was looking terrific value. For many of his supporters, given their bottom quartile intelligence, that could have been construed as a recommendation to pile in by the person they trust above all others, furthermore a person who they consider the very definition of shrewd and who would be deemed to have the inside track on relevant and price sensitive information. Major loss of trust surely. Not to mention lawsuits.
Am in Israel, wondering if I’ll get home. Rumour is the government is about to require a 14-day quarantine period for anyone entering the country. If people aren’t coming, the planes won’t fly in or, more important, out!!
You're a man of decent means and I think you're safer in Israel than the UK ? Enjoy the sunshine
I think the UK and Israel are about the same per million of population. I would rather be with my family right now. Things like this are pretty sobering when you’re far from home. Here’s hoping!!
Alarming photos show coronavirus patients hooked up to life support machines inside an Italian quarantine-zone hospital as medics in hazmat suits battle to save their lives
Fantastic news, who said a year wasn't long enough for negotiations?
Britain has learned a lot and is approaching these negotiations much smarter than they did the WA negotiations under May.
Also showing how true it was that Britain holds the cards. We're the ones who can frame what deal we want and us beating the EU to the punch like this is brilliant.
That's a joke post, right? Negotiation isn't just giving the other side a documnet and saying 'sign there'.
Nor does it involving constant touching of one's forelock
Clinical presentation and virological assessment of hospitalized cases of coronavirus disease 2019 in a travel-associated transmission cluster https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20030502v1 Conclusions: The present study shows that COVID-19 can often present as a common cold-like illness. SARS-CoV-2 can actively replicate in the upper respiratory tract, and is shed for a prolonged time after symptoms end, including in stool. These findings suggest adjustments of current case definitions and re-evaluation of the prospects of outbreak containment.
The first corona death in Germany was in Germany. One person died in the Heinsberg district, a spokeswoman for the district confirmed this to FOCUS Online. Initially she did not want to give details of age and sex. At 18.30 hours there will be a press conference with Lan to Stephan Pusch.
You're saying that despite the guaranteed recession, the plague about to sweep the US because of its inept leadership, and the global collapse in commodity prices, share prices will be just fine?
Trump was saying this a few days ago. He tweeted that the US stock market was looking terrific value. For many of his supporters, given their bottom quartile intelligence, that could have been construed as a recommendation to pile in by the person they trust above all others, furthermore a person who they consider the very definition of shrewd and who would be deemed to have the inside track on relevant and price sensitive information. Major loss of trust surely. Not to mention lawsuits.
The Trust can confirm that a patient in their 70s being treated for underlying health conditions has died.
Again unclear I suppose is it that he was there for something else and got ill or presented ill and the underlying conditions clearly causes massive risk.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
I'm not a fan but he is at least being consistent here. He's making the same point again - i.e. that it's all being overhyped, and the result of the overreaction could be worse than the virus itself.
Fantastic news, who said a year wasn't long enough for negotiations?
Britain has learned a lot and is approaching these negotiations much smarter than they did the WA negotiations under May.
Also showing how true it was that Britain holds the cards. We're the ones who can frame what deal we want and us beating the EU to the punch like this is brilliant.
That's a joke post, right? Negotiation isn't just giving the other side a documnet and saying 'sign there'.
Stop talking Blighty down!
Mr Johnson's brilliant analysis has demonstrated that "framing what deal it wants" is incontrovertible evidence for Blighty holding all the cards.
Arguing against that constitutes treason and shall be punished with a 14 day cruise on the Diamond Princess.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
In case you did not already know, it comes from the British version of House of Cards, where it was often said by Francis Urquhart (now a pb poster) to his pet journalist. The book was written by Michael Dobbs, who had been a SpAd to and Chief of Staff under Margaret Thatcher.
Alarming photos show coronavirus patients hooked up to life support machines inside an Italian quarantine-zone hospital as medics in hazmat suits battle to save their lives
Offtopic, but you've got to love the Mail headline writers/captioners. There's a video down the page with the legend 'Passengers dash through Milan station on the last train out'. Watch the video and it's all people calmly ambling through the station before, at the end, someone says 'where are we going?' also quite calmly.
In 2 weeks time we should expect there to be 5-10x the number of people with Covid 19 as there are now. That might be the time to introduce the ban on crowds at sporting fixtures.
Why would you not stop them now to see if we can keep the number of people lower than 5-10x ?
Because it won't work and because the public won't put up with those restraints forever so when it is needed people will already be fraying at the restrictions.
It’s only unnecessary activities for a month, why would anyone go stir crazy because they can’t go to a football match?
I find the idea that you can't do a month in your own home without going stir crazy rather bonkers. Under normal circumstances, if you were seriously ill you could easily end up in hospital for a month and not be able to leave the ward.
10+ years ago, I had a major op and was confined to bed at home for 3 months and then I couldn't leave the house for another 2. It really wasn't that bad, with tv, computers, doing work, learning new stuff, talking to my family.
It won't be a month though. This epidemic could last months or years and we're right at the start of the curve still now. If we're going to put in restrictions they need to be timed for maximum effect.
Isn't it obvious the maximum effect is obtained by doing it as early as possible? As they did in China? And 6 or 7 weeks later they have virtually eradicated it over most of the country and reduced the spread to 1% of what it was in the worst affected part.
It may "feel obvious" but that doesnt make it right. The scientists advising the govt arent just having a laugh at our (and their) expense.
If you're willing to be guided by blind faith in the outcome of whatever private discussions are going on behind the scenes between politicians and scientists, that's up to you. But obviously the balance to be struck is between minimising the number of deaths and minimising the economic costs. China opted for the former. It looks as though South Korea did too. But I don't think that's what's going to happen here.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
In case you did not already know, it comes from the British version of House of Cards, where it was often said by Francis Urquhart (now a pb poster) to his pet journalist. The book was written by Michael Dobbs, who had been a SpAd to and Chief of Staff under Margaret Thatcher.
The Trust can confirm that a patient in their 70s being treated for underlying health conditions has died.
Again unclear I suppose is it that he was there for something else and got ill or presented ill and the underlying conditions clearly causes massive risk.
Virtually everyone over the age of 70 has a at least one underlying health condition. I'm afraid it is just more softly softly propaganda from the health authorities. Like the Italian doctor said, we must end this war on panic.
The war instead needs to be focused on the virus, the ignorance/apathy of the nation and on sorting out our lack of preparedness.
CDC to cut by 80 percent efforts to prevent global disease outbreak https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/02/01/cdc-to-cut-by-80-percent-efforts-to-prevent-global-disease-outbreak/ Countries where the CDC is planning to scale back include some of the world’s hot spots for emerging infectious disease, such as China, Pakistan, Haiti, Rwanda and Congo. Last year, when Congo experienced a potentially deadly Ebola outbreak in a remote, forested area, CDC-trained disease detectives and rapid responders helped contain it quickly....
The first corona death in Germany was in Germany. One person died in the Heinsberg district, a spokeswoman for the district confirmed this to FOCUS Online. Initially she did not want to give details of age and sex. At 18.30 hours there will be a press conference with Lan to Stephan Pusch.
The first corona death in Germany was in Germany. One person died in the Heinsberg district, a spokeswoman for the district confirmed this to FOCUS Online. Initially she did not want to give details of age and sex. At 18.30 hours there will be a press conference with Lan to Stephan Pusch.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
In case you did not already know, it comes from the British version of House of Cards, where it was often said by Francis Urquhart (now a pb poster) to his pet journalist. The book was written by Michael Dobbs, who had been a SpAd to and Chief of Staff under Margaret Thatcher.
Somewhere in the vast terrain between "We're in deep shit!" and "It's no problem. Buy shares!" is where a US president ought to be landing his remarks.
Most surprising to me is that there seem to be few cases in the London boroughs. You'd have thought that, with the number of visitors and general travel, London would be a real hotspot.
There is something rather odd about the way this virus spreads: it seems extremely contagious in the conditions of conferences and also patient-doctor transmission, and at things like funerals, but (as far as one can tell from the UK tracking) not so much on public transport, shopping or other places which you might have expected would be very significant.
Its easy to spot if there is a cluster around a conference or funeral, you have a confirmed list of attendees but impossible to spot that it was shared at a Sainsburys local or the Northern Line 843 between Bank and Kings Cross as there is no way of grouping the attendees together.
But if that was the explanation then you'd expect lots of random cases to pop up which couldn't be tracked, even in the very early stages of the virus arriving in a country. We're not seeing that much in the UK, we are seeing identifiable clusters.
Edit: You'd also expect to see a lot more cases in London, which was part of my reasoning.
Aren't there lots of random cases popping up? By defintion the outbreak is going to be chracterised by clusters, partly because atributable sources of infeection are being investigated, partly beacuse they are more newsworthy and partly because a clusted contains more positive cases than an isolated random positive case.
As to the "Why not in London" argument this could just be random chance. We are still only talking about 280 positives in the UK. If you choose 280 people at random from the UK, it is surprisingly likely that London ends up with just one or two cases. People find it difficult to pick out genuinely random patterns.
No, so far we don't have lots of random cases in this country. Almost all cases can be identified as either a recent traveller or in contact with someone who was known to have the disease.
Where are you getting such data I can see each case in Spain as it is anounced which community and town, age of individual and if travelled or been in close contact with travelers. I have not seen same for uk in recent days.
Can you give me a link for the Spanish data_ I live near Mojacar.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
In case you did not already know, it comes from the British version of House of Cards, where it was often said by Francis Urquhart (now a pb poster) to his pet journalist. The book was written by Michael Dobbs, who had been a SpAd to and Chief of Staff under Margaret Thatcher.
Fantastic news, who said a year wasn't long enough for negotiations?
Britain has learned a lot and is approaching these negotiations much smarter than they did the WA negotiations under May.
Also showing how true it was that Britain holds the cards. We're the ones who can frame what deal we want and us beating the EU to the punch like this is brilliant.
That's a joke post, right? Negotiation isn't just giving the other side a documnet and saying 'sign there'.
Stop talking Blighty down!
Mr Johnson's brilliant analysis has demonstrated that "framing what deal it wants" is incontrovertible evidence for Blighty holding all the cards.
Arguing against that constitutes treason and shall be punished with a 14 day cruise on the Diamond Princess.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
The Americans really really hate "losers". And conversely, really really love "winners". It's probably at least partially why the Iowa and NH races were always so important.
Although not as important this year than we were repeatedly told they were!
In 2 weeks time we should expect there to be 5-10x the number of people with Covid 19 as there are now. That might be the time to introduce the ban on crowds at sporting fixtures.
Why would you not stop them now to see if we can keep the number of people lower than 5-10x ?
Because it won't work and because the public won't put up with those restraints forever so when it is needed people will already be fraying at the restrictions.
It’s only unnecessary activities for a month, why would anyone go stir crazy because they can’t go to a football match?
I find the idea that you can't do a month in your own home without going stir crazy rather bonkers. Under normal circumstances, if you were seriously ill you could easily end up in hospital for a month and not be able to leave the ward.
10+ years ago, I had a major op and was confined to bed at home for 3 months and then I couldn't leave the house for another 2. It really wasn't that bad, with tv, computers, doing work, learning new stuff, talking to my family.
It won't be a month though. This epidemic could last months or years and we're right at the start of the curve still now. If we're going to put in restrictions they need to be timed for maximum effect.
Isn't it obvious the maximum effect is obtained by doing it as early as possible? As they did in China? And 6 or 7 weeks later they have virtually eradicated it over most of the country and reduced the spread to 1% of what it was in the worst affected part.
It may "feel obvious" but that doesnt make it right. The scientists advising the govt arent just having a laugh at our (and their) expense.
If you're willing to be guided by blind faith in the outcome of whatever private discussions are going on behind the scenes between politicians and scientists, that's up to you. But obviously the balance to be struck is between minimising the number of deaths and minimising the economic costs. China opted for the former. It looks as though South Korea did too. But I don't think that's what's going to happen here.
If we maximise the economic costs in the hope of minimising covid 19 deaths, it may cost more deaths over the next few years than finding a good balance. We will have less funds for health services, we will be poorer and more depressed which are both linked to low quality and shorter lives. It may lead to the rise of extreme forms of government which will waste resources and care little for human rights or lives. The situation is complex, what seems obvious may not be right.
Without the data and big teams of experts across a range of subjects working together we are in a far worse place to analyse than the government.
They are more likely to be right than the public on this one.
Congratulations to them. They have potentially secured victory from the jaws of defeat.
On the flip side, I fear a big fail for Western liberal democracy. That's despite being given about 6-weeks advanced notice to do something.
Work colleague went home to China in mid January to visit family. They won't be let out until the end of March at the earliest.
You think we could have arranged effective house arrest for several million people?
I think the only realistic tactic for the west is effective house arrest for all those most vulnerable, while trying to let it pass through the general population at a manageable rate.
In 2 weeks time we should expect there to be 5-10x the number of people with Covid 19 as there are now. That might be the time to introduce the ban on crowds at sporting fixtures.
Why would you not stop them now to see if we can keep the number of people lower than 5-10x ?
Because it won't work and because the public won't put up with those restraints forever so when it is needed people will already be fraying at the restrictions.
It’s only unnecessary activities for a month, why would anyone go stir crazy because they can’t go to a football match?
I find the idea that you can't do a month in your own home without going stir crazy rather bonkers. Under normal circumstances, if you were seriously ill you could easily end up in hospital for a month and not be able to leave the ward.
10+ years ago, I had a major op and was confined to bed at home for 3 months and then I couldn't leave the house for another 2. It really wasn't that bad, with tv, computers, doing work, learning new stuff, talking to my family.
It won't be a month though. This epidemic could last months or years and we're right at the start of the curve still now. If we're going to put in restrictions they need to be timed for maximum effect.
Isn't it obvious the maximum effect is obtained by doing it as early as possible? As they did in China? And 6 or 7 weeks later they have virtually eradicated it over most of the country and reduced the spread to 1% of what it was in the worst affected part.
It may "feel obvious" but that doesnt make it right. The scientists advising the govt arent just having a laugh at our (and their) expense.
If you're willing to be guided by blind faith in the outcome of whatever private discussions are going on behind the scenes between politicians and scientists, that's up to you. But obviously the balance to be struck is between minimising the number of deaths and minimising the economic costs. China opted for the former. It looks as though South Korea did too. But I don't think that's what's going to happen here.
Arguably, China and S Korea have achieved both objectives.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
In case you did not already know, it comes from the British version of House of Cards, where it was often said by Francis Urquhart (now a pb poster) to his pet journalist. The book was written by Michael Dobbs, who had been a SpAd to and Chief of Staff under Margaret Thatcher.
Congratulations to them. They have potentially secured victory from the jaws of defeat.
On the flip side, I fear a big fail for Western liberal democracy. That's despite being given about 6-weeks advanced notice to do something.
Work colleague went home to China in mid January to visit family. They won't be let out until the end of March at the earliest.
You think we could have arranged effective house arrest for several million people?
No I think there is something in between totalitarian lock down and laissez faire disregard. Do you? If so, do you think we (the 'West') are getting the balance right? Personally, I'd like a bit more interventionism now. Just like the Italian doctor on the front line, I'd also like the war on panic to stop.
The Americans really really hate "losers". And conversely, really really love "winners". It's probably at least partially why the Iowa and NH races were always so important.
Although not as important this year than we were repeatedly told they were!
Well the US does also love losers who become winners.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
Also, despite not trusting Boris in general i.e. he normally looks through the lens of what is best for him, in this particular extreme case there is no way he isn't listening and simply following their advice. Trump on the other hand...
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
I wish I could be as sanguine here in Spain where today´s figures are awful. True not where I live but I would certainly be considering travel restrictions to the costas from the north as Easter approaches. Otherwise the whole country could easily be inundated rapidly. The area I live contains a lot of holiday homes and the populations swell noticeably at holiday times.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
Users of low dose coated aspirin may be interested to note three packs (normally 80p each) are on sale at £24.56 on eBay. Good to see the wartime spiv culture is alive and kicking.
I would certainly lock down the oldies ASAP. For a 70 year old retiree who spends their days between the golf club, out to restaurants and seeing the grandkids to continue to do this is highly risky.
I know a lot of grand parents do childcare, but we can't have that continuing either.
I wonder then (total speculation obviously) that what really works for high % chance of transmission is consistent exposure to an infected areas e.g. conferences everybody goes back to the same venue every day, apres-ski to the same bars, religious venues I am sure don't get properly cleaned down that often.
There was speculation along those lines in Hubei last month, where death rates were 5%ish, compared to isolated cases further away where it fell to something like a tenth of that. This was explained initially as the local health system being overwhelmed, but it seems rather similar in Europe.
Something about repeated exposure making the infection more dangerous? I don't know if this is possible.
It doesn't need to be more dangerous as such, thinking about it in probabilistic terms, perhaps these "super spreaders" that don't feel ill, but for a period in time what comes out of their mouth is very contagious. They go round infecting all the hard surfaces in a hotel, bar, or in Wuhan case massive apartment blocks.
Then, if there is an x% chance of picking it up by touching an infected surface, if you repeatedly visit that same location many times in a very short window of time, obviously the chances of contracting the disease becomes very high (especially if you have no idea that this is potentially an issue and so aren't hand washing etc).
Thinking now, South Korea with the weirdo cult, apparently Germany was some sort of festival, Italy is these ski resorts. Cruise ships, where everybody goes to the same venues every day, etc
In Wuhan, initially the medical staff got ill, again they are dealing with this 24/7 thinking it was just standard pneumonia.
Some sort of festival? I realise it's a Catholic thing but surely you've heard of Carnival?
Henrietta's model is no longer working, and all three versions are too pessimistic.
Her most hopeful model, Model G, predicted that there would be 39,000 cases outside China by March 9. Instead there are 31,000. That's a big difference.
If I had to hazard a guess why, I'd say it is because the Asians have done an unexpectedly good job of containing it: in Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Because we certainly aren't containing it in Western Europe or the USA.
We need to copy the Asians. Now.
Erm. There are 31,000 'recorded' cases.
Therein lies the problem with your more optimistic thesis.
But, yes, you're absolutely right. We should indeed be copying the Asians. We aren't. Disaster is going to hit the west.
The result of this 5, 15 and 50 years from now will be that Asia contains the world's superpower(s). Not Europe. And certainly not America.
Users of low dose coated aspirin may be interested to note three packs (normally 80p each) are on sale at £24.56 on eBay. Good to see the wartime spiv culture is alive and kicking.
Asking for a friend whose father is a retired Doctor.
How much do you think an unused prescription pad would go for on eBay?
Henrietta's model is no longer working, and all three versions are too pessimistic.
Her most hopeful model, Model G, predicted that there would be 39,000 cases outside China by March 9. Instead there are 31,000. That's a big difference.
If I had to hazard a guess why, I'd say it is because the Asians have done an unexpectedly good job of containing it: in Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Because we certainly aren't containing it in Western Europe or the USA.
We need to copy the Asians. Now.
It never did "work". It was just a line through the data points she had to begin with.
Bloody thing is half empty, but that half are sneezing and coughing like they've never heard of Covid-19....
How many are wearing masks? 0.1%?
This is the crazy thing. If everyone wore a mask infections would plummet. It's so simple, and it's one big reason Asia is handling this better than us. They all wear masks.
Western individualism is going to kill us.
Not seen a single mask yet.....
Went to London for a meeting earlier - all I heard from people on train, security outside my London office and people at meeting was .... the Virus
But not one mask seen
Can you actually buy them if you wanted to?
Yes, amazingly, you can. I got some more from amazon, ordered Friday, arrived this morning.
Dont really need the masks only go where I can sit outside and the supermarket is quiet. Only staff in ‘urgencies’ wearing masks out here. Nearest case 30 mins drive so no panic as yet.
Doesn't that mean that someone 30 minutes away caught it 14 days ago?
Well quite, the biggest risks at the moment are cruise returners especially US based cruises not aware of our aging population going skiing in Italy but I’m afraid even amongst the British there is still double kissing.
What kind of self-respecting Brit kisses as a greeting?
Users of low dose coated aspirin may be interested to note three packs (normally 80p each) are on sale at £24.56 on eBay. Good to see the wartime spiv culture is alive and kicking.
Asking for a friend whose father is a retired Doctor.
How much do you think an unused prescription pad would go for on eBay?
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
Also, despite not trusting Boris in general i.e. he normally looks through the lens of what is best for him, in this particular extreme case there is no way he isn't listening and simply following their advice. Trump on the other hand...
Trump has deep, deep issues that have turned him into a narcissist incapable of seeing anything outside of what he perceives to be his own very narrow interests. He has no affection for or loyalty to the US or to the American people. Johnson is a lot of things, but he is not that. Trump is almost uniquely unsuited to be running the US at a time like this.
That's totally correct for lockdowns in people's homes - never leaving the door.
But pray tell, why would I get fatigue working from home thereby being able to avoid having to get on a train surrounded by coughers? Answer: I won't.
I just want some recommendation from government so I can start organising my meetings from home. Unfortunately I have to wait for widespread transmission for me to get that reassurance.
Likewise those with tickets to Italy needed advice from the government NOT to travel, thereby allowing them to get a refund on their tickets. But the advice has been slow in coming.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
Also, despite not trusting Boris in general i.e. he normally looks through the lens of what is best for him, in this particular extreme case there is no way he isn't listening and simply following their advice. Trump on the other hand...
Trump has deep, deep issues that have turned him into a narcissist incapable of seeing anything outside of what he perceives to be his own very narrow interests. He has no affection for or loyalty to the US or to the American people. Johnson is a lot of things, but he is not that. Trump is almost uniquely unsuited to be running the US at a time like this.
His response to the Cruise ship was very telling. "I like the numbers the way they are, why should I add to my numbers"....
I mean it is one thing talking about some sort of financial deal in those terms, but these are humans.
Henrietta's model is no longer working, and all three versions are too pessimistic.
Her most hopeful model, Model G, predicted that there would be 39,000 cases outside China by March 9. Instead there are 31,000. That's a big difference.
If I had to hazard a guess why, I'd say it is because the Asians have done an unexpectedly good job of containing it: in Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Because we certainly aren't containing it in Western Europe or the USA.
We need to copy the Asians. Now.
Yes, and I don't want to dampen your new mood of 'reserved optimism' but presumably Iran could have those 8,000 'missing cases, just not reported publicly. (and the US)
A week or so ago we where getting the breakdown of how many of the new cases had come form people who had recently returned from overseas, but I haven't seen those numbers recently. has the government stopped issuing them or can anybody direct me to where they are. Thanks.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
I wish I could be as sanguine here in Spain where today´s figures are awful. True not where I live but I would certainly be considering travel restrictions to the costas from the north as Easter approaches. Otherwise the whole country could easily be inundated rapidly. The area I live contains a lot of holiday homes and the populations swell noticeably at holiday times.
The problem in Spain are the layers of national, regional and local responsibilities. They all have to be untied before concerted country-wide action can be taken. At a time like this you have to have central coordination.
That's totally correct for lockdowns in people's homes - never leaving the door.
But pray tell, why would I get fatigue working from home thereby being able to avoid having to get on a train surrounded by coughers? Answer: I won't.
I just want some recommendation from government so I can start organising my meetings from home. Unfortunately I have to wait for widespread transmission for me to get that reassurance.
Likewise those with tickets to Italy needed advice from the government NOT to travel, thereby allowing them to get a refund on their tickets. But the advice has been slow in coming.
It is nonsensical and too much all-or-nothing.
Why universities are carrying on as normal is beyond me. They are just massive germ factories and in 3 weeks when it really spreads they will all bugger off home. Send them now, while the community transfer is low.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
Also, despite not trusting Boris in general i.e. he normally looks through the lens of what is best for him, in this particular extreme case there is no way he isn't listening and simply following their advice. Trump on the other hand...
Trump has deep, deep issues that have turned him into a narcissist incapable of seeing anything outside of what he perceives to be his own very narrow interests. He has no affection for or loyalty to the US or to the American people. Johnson is a lot of things, but he is not that. Trump is almost uniquely unsuited to be running the US at a time like this.
His response to the Cruise ship was very telling. "I like the numbers the way they are, why should I add to my numbers"....
I mean it is one thing talking about some sort of financial deal in those terms, but these are humans.
That comment struck home with me also. It was like keeping score and making sure you got the best result for yourself and just yourself. Sod anyone else.
Henrietta's model is no longer working, and all three versions are too pessimistic.
Her most hopeful model, Model G, predicted that there would be 39,000 cases outside China by March 9. Instead there are 31,000. That's a big difference.
If I had to hazard a guess why, I'd say it is because the Asians have done an unexpectedly good job of containing it: in Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Because we certainly aren't containing it in Western Europe or the USA.
We need to copy the Asians. Now.
It never did "work". It was just a line through the data points she had to begin with.
Those models would have had a huge 95% confidence intervall (margin of error), perhaps between 20 000 and 50 000 cases. So a better way to describe them is that the models were not wrong as such but just so weak they lacked any realistic predictive power.
Henrietta's model is no longer working, and all three versions are too pessimistic.
Her most hopeful model, Model G, predicted that there would be 39,000 cases outside China by March 9. Instead there are 31,000. That's a big difference.
If I had to hazard a guess why, I'd say it is because the Asians have done an unexpectedly good job of containing it: in Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Because we certainly aren't containing it in Western Europe or the USA.
We need to copy the Asians. Now.
Yes, and I don't want to dampen your new mood of 'reserved optimism' but presumably Iran could have those 8,000 'missing cases, just not reported publicly. (and the US) .
Indeed. It's likely to be far higher than Henrietta's 39,000
Don't lose your grip Eadric. I'm afraid you need to remain pessimistic.
I do not see how second-guessing the government on its management of the crisis is helpful right now. We have to trust they’re getting it right. This is not the time for point-scoring.
The Fake News Boris clip is now trending on twitter. This is massively irresponsible.
It is. We need to trust the government on this. If we don’t it can only make matters worse. I think that the people advising UK politicians know what they’re talking about and I cannot imagine our politicians would try to second guess them.
Also, despite not trusting Boris in general i.e. he normally looks through the lens of what is best for him, in this particular extreme case there is no way he isn't listening and simply following their advice. Trump on the other hand...
Trump has deep, deep issues that have turned him into a narcissist incapable of seeing anything outside of what he perceives to be his own very narrow interests. He has no affection for or loyalty to the US or to the American people. Johnson is a lot of things, but he is not that. Trump is almost uniquely unsuited to be running the US at a time like this.
At the same time Trump is emblematic of the USA's lack of internal balance, intellectually, psychologically, and socially since the Reagan years.
With all his issues, his celebrity persona was the single most recognisable face of 1980s American capitalism. Particularly on the east coast, he was essentially *the* marketed business face of the 80's.
I would certainly lock down the oldies ASAP. For a 70 year old retiree who spends their days between the golf club, out to restaurants and seeing the grandkids to continue to do this is highly risky.
I know a lot of grand parents do childcare, but we can't have that continuing either.
We have just picked up two of our grandchildren and I am about to make their tea before their Dad/Mum picks them up
Henrietta's model is no longer working, and all three versions are too pessimistic.
Her most hopeful model, Model G, predicted that there would be 39,000 cases outside China by March 9. Instead there are 31,000. That's a big difference.
If I had to hazard a guess why, I'd say it is because the Asians have done an unexpectedly good job of containing it: in Taiwan, Japan, Korea. Because we certainly aren't containing it in Western Europe or the USA.
We need to copy the Asians. Now.
Might it possibly instead be that the models were complete nonsense in the first place as pointed out by many people on here who teach or work in statistics and risk on a daily basis?
Comments
Let's see what it looks like in a week's time.
The numbers by location here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-number-of-cases-in-england/coronavirus-covid-19-number-of-cases-in-england
The point is the UK government is telling businesses NOW to prepare and not in 10 months time with just a few weeks notice.
The point is that the government is being clear and transparent with the ambitions and not seeking a "cake and eat it" approach much bemoaned (and rejected by the EU) under May.
The point is that we are diverging.
Enjoy the sunshine
Dominic Lawson asks Trevor Phillips, the former head of the Commission for Racial Equality, about why he abandoned support for multiculturalism and what the reaction was.‘
Just listened to this again, four years after the first time. Absolutely brilliant, he is spot on.
Ends with TP answering “You might say that, I couldn’t possibly comment”, a phrase I had only ever heard before on here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b078hlsz
https://twitter.com/silviast9/status/1236933818654896129
Negotiation isn't just giving the other side a documnet and saying 'sign there'.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/09/cure-recession-coronavirus-economic-collapse-globalisation
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8090779/Italian-PM-makes-impassioned-plea-16-million-obey-quarantine.html
But the Italians still aren't listening.
Clinical presentation and virological assessment of hospitalized cases of coronavirus disease 2019 in a travel-associated transmission cluster
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20030502v1
Conclusions: The present study shows that COVID-19 can often present as a common cold-like illness. SARS-CoV-2 can actively replicate in the upper respiratory tract, and is shed for a prolonged time after symptoms end, including in stool. These findings suggest adjustments of current case definitions and re-evaluation of the prospects of outbreak containment.
The first corona death in Germany was in Germany. One person died in the Heinsberg district, a spokeswoman for the district confirmed this to FOCUS Online. Initially she did not want to give details of age and sex. At 18.30 hours there will be a press conference with Lan to Stephan Pusch.
https://www.bild.de/news/2020/news/kreis-heinsberg-teilt-mit-erster-corona-todesfall-in-deutschland-69292676.bild.html
Though granted he's not very good.
Again unclear I suppose is it that he was there for something else and got ill or presented ill and the underlying conditions clearly causes massive risk.
On the flip side, I fear a big fail for Western liberal democracy. That's despite being given about 6-weeks advanced notice to do something.
Mr Johnson's brilliant analysis has demonstrated that "framing what deal it wants" is incontrovertible evidence for Blighty holding all the cards.
Arguing against that constitutes treason and shall be punished with a 14 day cruise on the Diamond Princess.
https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2020-03-09/first-case-of-coronavirus-confirmed-in-the-channel-islands/
The war instead needs to be focused on the virus, the ignorance/apathy of the nation and on sorting out our lack of preparedness.
CDC to cut by 80 percent efforts to prevent global disease outbreak
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/02/01/cdc-to-cut-by-80-percent-efforts-to-prevent-global-disease-outbreak/
Countries where the CDC is planning to scale back include some of the world’s hot spots for emerging infectious disease, such as China, Pakistan, Haiti, Rwanda and Congo. Last year, when Congo experienced a potentially deadly Ebola outbreak in a remote, forested area, CDC-trained disease detectives and rapid responders helped contain it quickly....
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1090729920760893441
You think we could have arranged effective house arrest for several million people?
Without the data and big teams of experts across a range of subjects working together we are in a far worse place to analyse than the government.
They are more likely to be right than the public on this one.
He will be followed by staffers with Purell, and make regular use of it. Of course should anyone sneeze on him....
He should sue Twitter....
https://twitter.com/pippacrerar/status/1237046811447230470?s=21
I know a lot of grand parents do childcare, but we can't have that continuing either.
Therein lies the problem with your more optimistic thesis.
But, yes, you're absolutely right. We should indeed be copying the Asians. We aren't. Disaster is going to hit the west.
The result of this 5, 15 and 50 years from now will be that Asia contains the world's superpower(s). Not Europe. And certainly not America.
How much do you think an unused prescription pad would go for on eBay?
Few, if any, people will be upset if the outbreak turns out to be controllable.
It all relies on the key endorsement from Joe Biden.
But pray tell, why would I get fatigue working from home thereby being able to avoid having to get on a train surrounded by coughers? Answer: I won't.
I just want some recommendation from government so I can start organising my meetings from home. Unfortunately I have to wait for widespread transmission for me to get that reassurance.
Likewise those with tickets to Italy needed advice from the government NOT to travel, thereby allowing them to get a refund on their tickets. But the advice has been slow in coming.
It is nonsensical and too much all-or-nothing.
I mean it is one thing talking about some sort of financial deal in those terms, but these are humans.
A week or so ago we where getting the breakdown of how many of the new cases had come form people who had recently returned from overseas, but I haven't seen those numbers recently. has the government stopped issuing them or can anybody direct me to where they are. Thanks.
Don't lose your grip Eadric. I'm afraid you need to remain pessimistic.
With all his issues, his celebrity persona was the single most recognisable face of 1980s American capitalism. Particularly on the east coast, he was essentially *the* marketed business face of the 80's.