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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On Betfair Ed Davey’s odds of winning the LD leadership are ti

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited January 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On Betfair Ed Davey’s odds of winning the LD leadership are tighter than Starmer’s for LAB

Last time there was an LD leadership contest it got overshadowed by the Tory contest that saw Johnson take the crown. This time it is LAB’s leadership battle which is dominating the coverage which is understandable.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    First like Layla.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Evens would be nearer the mark ?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    Moran would be a disaster. There is only so much virtue signalling and bandwagon jumping that anyone can take.

    Her sexuality is neither here nor there. But her choice of new partner is a source of concern given the reasons for her leaving her role with the LDs.

    Add to that Moran's violent past should really disqualify her from any role in public life
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    His teeth seem to be authentically working class but only isam is qualfied to tell us for sure.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Previously Panned Ed vs Newly Pansexual Layla.

    The LDs are out of the frying pan and into the dire..
  • tlg86 said:

    First like Layla.

    She's the one who has sex with pans, right??
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    tlg86 said:

    First like Layla.

    She's the one who has sex with pans, right??
    There's no need to be pan-phobic
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited January 2020
    FPT

    As well as the Cummings video, people should re-watch When Boris Met Dave. It is entertaining but with one very large clue hidden in plain sight. Boris has a bust of Pericles. Boris worships the ancient Athenian ruler. And what was Pericles' slogan? For the many, not the few!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    His teeth seem to be authentically working class but only isam is qualfied to tell us for sure.

    Shouldn’t you be wishing death on people or doing wheelies on your bmx?

    He looks like Morrissey to me
  • After the Cheltenham budget when the Saj will give the magic money tree a firm shake, Ed Davey will be the only remaining advocate of running surpluses.
  • Sir Ed Davey; Sir Keir Starmer; man of the people Boris!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    If only they’d picked Davey last time! Swinson was a dreadful unforced error.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350
    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    If only they’d picked Davey last time! Swinson was a dreadful unforced error.

    Yep. All because they wanted a woman. If Davey had been female and Swinson a male, Davey would have won by a country mile.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350
    Awful picture, Ed. Too squinty. He looks like Benny Hill's generic Asian.

    "Why everybody crapping?"
  • I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    Will Daisy pull it off?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    Will Daisy pull it off?
    Will she stand?

    Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do.....
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    But what is he going to do about student debt ?

    The ONS has given him £10bn+ a year to reduce it.
    Why should he reduce student debt - the students willingly signed up and committed to it.
    Because it is significantly reducing consumption, is an incentive for our graduates to work abroad rather than here, is reducing the demand for house ownership and thus culling the next generation of Tory voters?
    What has a graduate tax have to do with demand for house ownership. The demand is there the reason most people can't buy isn't due to the amount of "tax" they pay it's because house prices are far higher than the amount they income allows them to borrow.

    And I can't see how removing any tax would resolve that issue - house prices would just increase by the increased income.
    No, they wouldn't. Young people in their 20s and 30s are only one group of people that buy houses. So the percentage rise in house prices would only increase by a fraction of the increase in net income among young graduates. Plus house prices are determined by both supply and demand so the increase in demand wouldn't filter 1:1 to price anyway.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
  • So when is the LD contest kicking off? At least it is quite straightforward unlike the dogs dinner that is Labour's.

    Looking at Lab's it feels like Lewis won't get the MPs as he is fishing in the same pond as Long-Bailey. Thornberry seems not to be trusted by either the Corbynites or moderates so again may not get the MPs unless she is lent some.

    At the next stage it feels to me like Starmer and Nandy will get the CLPs and Long-Bailey will get the affiliates so it is then whether Phillips gets enough CLPs.

    Could just be the three candidates going to the very complex selectorate.
  • Will Daisy run for leader just a few weeks after entering Westminster? It does seem a mite presumptuous.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    But what is he going to do about student debt ?

    The ONS has given him £10bn+ a year to reduce it.
    Talking of student debt, according to the BBC, if Jackson Carlaw wins the SCon leadership election he is going to ditch their long-standing opposition to free university tuition. That’ll make all Ruth Davidson’s wind-baggery on the topic look rather daft.
    My! SCons are getting younger.....

    https://twitter.com/WaddellCooks/status/1214272458028732416?s=20

    (Mind you, I always thought 'bungs for the middle class the poor pay for' was supposed to be Tory practice - but there you go, the SNP pinched it..)
    “Jazz up”? Is that Jackson’s version of Johnson’s “spaff up”?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Stocky said:

    If only they’d picked Davey last time! Swinson was a dreadful unforced error.

    Yep. All because they wanted a woman. If Davey had been female and Swinson a male, Davey would have won by a country mile.
    A lesson for Labour?
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    Her revoke policy was at the root of her undoing and that was her own fault
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Sir Ed Davey; Sir Keir Starmer; man of the people Boris!

    Woman of the people Nicola.

    Would a “man of the people” put defeated pal Zac straight into the Lords and straight back into the cabinet?
  • Boris bestrides the political landscape at present. If Labour are a smudge on his boot then the Lib Dems are a pulled thread by the crotch of his underpants.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,790
    edited January 2020

    tlg86 said:

    First like Layla.

    She's the one who has sex with pans, right??
    (Deleted: I can't think of something funny that isn't rude)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Much to like about Ed Davey and very little not to like.

    "So how's it going on the doorstep, Simon?"

    "No problem with our key policies. In fact they're very popular. But it's all overshadowed by one big thing. Davey. He's toxic."

    Hard to envisage such an exchange.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Is this going to be the quality of central office postings over the next 5 years?
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    edited January 2020
    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    kinabalu said:

    Much to like about Ed Davey and very little not to like.

    "So how's it going on the doorstep, Simon?"

    "No problem with our key policies. In fact they're very popular. But it's all overshadowed by one big thing. Davey. He's toxic."

    Hard to envisage such an exchange.

    Yes - he`s really well respected amongst MPs from other parties too.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    Everything was beyond the control of Jo. She had the natural authority of a tunnocks tea cake.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,183
    edited January 2020
    Looking at Guido's famous spreadsheet on the previous thread it's notable that Marie, Tracy, Debbie, Carolyn, Janet, Thangam, Sarah and Karen are all content to be led by a male. Maybe the tide is slowly turning?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    Moron you should be ashamed of yourself, it was a kangaroo court, absolutely no justice served in this case.
  • Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I was staggered to learn that Montgomerie was a Boris hire. What possible use would Boris have for him? Was it some sort of sop to IDS? Wouldn't the knighthood have sufficed? Why?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,874
    1.66 looks a bit short to me, so I've laid it. Moran has a good chance I think but best to lay the favourite now whilst the field is still undefined.
  • Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    One of which was sadly her own very limited competence !
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Gabs3 said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    But what is he going to do about student debt ?

    The ONS has given him £10bn+ a year to reduce it.
    Why should he reduce student debt - the students willingly signed up and committed to it.
    Because it is significantly reducing consumption, is an incentive for our graduates to work abroad rather than here, is reducing the demand for house ownership and thus culling the next generation of Tory voters?
    What has a graduate tax have to do with demand for house ownership. The demand is there the reason most people can't buy isn't due to the amount of "tax" they pay it's because house prices are far higher than the amount they income allows them to borrow.

    And I can't see how removing any tax would resolve that issue - house prices would just increase by the increased income.
    No, they wouldn't. Young people in their 20s and 30s are only one group of people that buy houses. So the percentage rise in house prices would only increase by a fraction of the increase in net income among young graduates. Plus house prices are determined by both supply and demand so the increase in demand wouldn't filter 1:1 to price anyway.
    Nope it would equally filter into rents resulting in landlords being able to purchase at higher prices as well.

    Basically I don't believe any changes to the graduate tax would resolve house prices in any way that actually building houses wouldn't resolve far quicker and for far less money.
  • Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    That is true but isn't Orban a mate of Bibi's? Some antisemites are more equal than others.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    eek said:

    Gabs3 said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    But what is he going to do about student debt ?

    The ONS has given him £10bn+ a year to reduce it.
    Why should he reduce student debt - the students willingly signed up and committed to it.
    Because it is significantly reducing consumption, is an incentive for our graduates to work abroad rather than here, is reducing the demand for house ownership and thus culling the next generation of Tory voters?
    What has a graduate tax have to do with demand for house ownership. The demand is there the reason most people can't buy isn't due to the amount of "tax" they pay it's because house prices are far higher than the amount they income allows them to borrow.

    And I can't see how removing any tax would resolve that issue - house prices would just increase by the increased income.
    No, they wouldn't. Young people in their 20s and 30s are only one group of people that buy houses. So the percentage rise in house prices would only increase by a fraction of the increase in net income among young graduates. Plus house prices are determined by both supply and demand so the increase in demand wouldn't filter 1:1 to price anyway.
    Nope it would equally filter into rents resulting in landlords being able to purchase at higher prices as well.

    Basically I don't believe any changes to the graduate tax would resolve house prices in any way that actually building houses wouldn't resolve far quicker and for far less money.
    There are taxes paid before the money reaches landlords pockets, and landlords will also spend money on other things. Supply and demand lines are diagonal, not perfectly vertical.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,790
    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    "Not being screwed by forces beyond your control" is the job description. It's not just appear on telly, make nice speech, change happens. Any political leader will be opposed by decent, well meaning people who have sensible, rational reasons for opposing that leader. It's that leaders job to work out how to beat them.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited January 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Much to like about Ed Davey and very little not to like.

    "So how's it going on the doorstep, Simon?"

    "No problem with our key policies. In fact they're very popular. But it's all overshadowed by one big thing. Davey. He's toxic."

    Hard to envisage such an exchange.

    What is not to like about Ed Davey is his damn fool advocacy of budget surpluses as recently as a few weeks ago. Otoh someone has to win. Wikipedia says he once worked for a pork pie factory so HIGNFY script-writers can take a week off.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Davey#Early_life
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350

    Will Daisy run for leader just a few weeks after entering Westminster? It does seem a mite presumptuous.

    They aren't exactly spoilt for choice.....
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,771
    It has to be Davey in my book. I can’t see Layla Moran bringing flocks of new voters to her, and Daisy should probably get some Commons experience under her belt first.

    Davey isn’t electrifying, but would probably take the right steps towards the LDs rebuilding (if indeed they actually can - there is an argument that 2015 holed them below the waterline).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350
    edited January 2020
    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    Revoke? Beyond her control?

    "Prime Minister Jo Swinson"? Beyond her control?

    Yes, I can see why she got nowhere, having so little control over her destiny....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,790
    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
  • Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    Revoke? Beyond her control?

    "Prime Minister Jo Swinson"? Beyond her control?

    Yes, I can see why she got nowhere, having so little control over her destiny....
    Wasn't "Prime Minister Jo Swinson" on the advice of polling experts?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,790

    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    Revoke? Beyond her control?

    "Prime Minister Jo Swinson"? Beyond her control?

    Yes, I can see why she got nowhere, having so little control over her destiny....
    Wasn't "Prime Minister Jo Swinson" on the advice of polling experts?
    "Experts"??????!!!!!
  • Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    Even ignoring Orban and his politics I struggle to see what makes Hungary even in the top 30 countries the UK should be developing a special relationship with. So its hard to not leap to the conclusion that it is their far right politics that appeals to Montgomerie.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350

    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    One of which was sadly her own very limited competence !
    Plus... Labour, LibDems - and anybody else looking to change leader:

    Do NOT put forward somebody who has a desire to wear slabs of clashing primary colours.

    And who cannot accessorise without further horrific colour clashes.

    And who has giant teeth. Those teeth.

    My god.

    They followed you around the room, unlocking some really primal fears.... No wonder she lost. Who was going to vote for a sabre-toothed tiger?
  • Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    Revoke? Beyond her control?

    "Prime Minister Jo Swinson"? Beyond her control?

    Yes, I can see why she got nowhere, having so little control over her destiny....
    The LibDem men in grey suits need to learn from that and immediately lock the new leader in a smoke-filled room for a weekend while they thrash out answers to all the obvious questions like Brexit/rejoin, support for RLB or whoever, and so on. Many of Swinson's problems came from giving reporters the first answer that popped into her head.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited January 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    Going the other way from Gabs3 Equally it does seem to be that Cyprus believes once consent is given - that consent is for all men for all time.

    In my case the holiday villa in Cyprus plan has been thrown out - probably back to looking at Turkey or Portugal.
  • Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    One of which was sadly her own very limited competence !
    Competence didn't seem to be much of a factor. After all, a lot of people voted for the self harm inflicting Conservative Party led by Boris Johnson, an inveterate liar and charlatan. In reality of course, they were voting against Mr Thicky, the worst LoTO in the history of this once great nation.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Alastair Meeks said
    ' Jeremy Corbyn just led Labour to its most crushing defeat in our lifetimes. Racking up a good vote count did him no good whatsoever because a lot more people voted in a way to keep him out of power. This isn't flowery language. That is, as you would say, a raw fact.

    You're assuming that his own vote count was down to him rather than greater antipathy to his opponent. I suggest that is a brave assumption.'

    In England and Wales it was a far less crushing defeat than 1983 and 1987. Moreover, Labour did win 15 seats last month which were won by the Tories in the 2015 election - and also held on to Sheffield Hallam. Over a five year period it has been far from being one way traffic. Overall I believe Labour finds itself better placed than post 1987 - and faces a 1992 type challenge at the next election.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,771
    malcolmg said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    Moron you should be ashamed of yourself, it was a kangaroo court, absolutely no justice served in this case.
    Reporting of cases such as this always make me a tad uneasy. On one hand, we must shine a light on possible miscarriages of justice - they can and do happen and it has only been through campaigners’ perseverance and media attention that those wrongly convicted have been cleared.

    On the other hand, there is at times a tendency in the media to whip up a narrative against foreign justice systems for jingoistic purposes which creates a media circus.

    I post the above with no particular comment on this actual case, whose facts I have not followed closely.
  • Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    When did anyone on here really worry about facts before sounding off? It is like expecting tabloids to do so. The only thing we can be certain of is that we are unlikely to get to the true facts of the case. It is worth remembering that there is a possibility that she is telling the truth and is therefore a double victim, though it is also quite possible that the court was right and she was lying. IN that case those originally accused are the victims. It seems to be forgotten that to wrongly accuse another of a heinous crime is a despicable thing. If it is very clear that an accusation is malicious or false it is quite right for the person to be called to account.
  • malcolmg said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    Moron you should be ashamed of yourself, it was a kangaroo court, absolutely no justice served in this case.
    So speaks someone who is clearly very informed on the case. Oh, my mistake, it is Malcolmg who, without an understanding of irony, calls someone else a moron.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    Ed Davey looks the best candidate for the LDs. Exudes an air if non-threatening centrism and hints at competence. I still hold against him the contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs in the debate in the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 in order that they wouldn't have to fulfil their manifesto promise of supporting a referendum (the justification for which, of course, was that the Lib Dems supposedly wanted a referendum on membership of the EU) but if we could never support a politician who had had at some stage taken a contrived position then we'd be left without many politicians to support. Anyway, Ed looks like the party to hoover up the soft Tory vote.
    Layla Moran: What exactly is pansexual that bisexual is not? My understanding - and this is limited, because it seems to be a term used exclusively by young people - is that it implies Layla us attracted to men, women and transsexuals. But as far as I am aware 'bisexual' doesn't implicitly rule out transsexuals. But maybe if Layla simply said she was bisexual we might nit pay enough attention.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    Going the other way from Gabs3 Equally it does seem to be that Cyprus believes once consent is given - that consent is for all men for all time.

    In my case the holiday villa in Cyprus plan has been thrown out - probably back to looking at Turkey or Portugal.
    Do you think Turkey is more liberal and enlightened than Cyprus on this point?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    edited January 2020
    Cookie said:

    Ed Davey looks the best candidate for the LDs. Exudes an air if non-threatening centrism and hints at competence. I still hold against him the contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs in the debate in the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 in order that they wouldn't have to fulfil their manifesto promise of supporting a referendum (the justification for which, of course, was that the Lib Dems supposedly wanted a referendum on membership of the EU) but if we could never support a politician who had had at some stage taken a contrived position then we'd be left without many politicians to support. Anyway, Ed looks like the party to hoover up the soft Tory vote.
    Layla Moran: What exactly is pansexual that bisexual is not? My understanding - and this is limited, because it seems to be a term used exclusively by young people - is that it implies Layla us attracted to men, women and transsexuals. But as far as I am aware 'bisexual' doesn't implicitly rule out transsexuals. But maybe if Layla simply said she was bisexual we might nit pay enough attention.

    Who knows? The woke twats keep making it it up as they go along.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    When did anyone on here really worry about facts before sounding off? It is like expecting tabloids to do so. The only thing we can be certain of is that we are unlikely to get to the true facts of the case. It is worth remembering that there is a possibility that she is telling the truth and is therefore a double victim, though it is also quite possible that the court was right and she was lying. IN that case those originally accused are the victims. It seems to be forgotten that to wrongly accuse another of a heinous crime is a despicable thing. If it is very clear that an accusation is malicious or false it is quite right for the person to be called to account.
    If you are videoing a woman having sex with multiple men you usually find signed consent forms and money involved.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,242
    edited January 2020
    Davey would appeal more to Remainer Tories but he lost last time so no guarantee he wins this time
  • eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    Going the other way from Gabs3 Equally it does seem to be that Cyprus believes once consent is given - that consent is for all men for all time.

    In my case the holiday villa in Cyprus plan has been thrown out - probably back to looking at Turkey or Portugal.
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    When did anyone on here really worry about facts before sounding off? It is like expecting tabloids to do so. The only thing we can be certain of is that we are unlikely to get to the true facts of the case. It is worth remembering that there is a possibility that she is telling the truth and is therefore a double victim, though it is also quite possible that the court was right and she was lying. IN that case those originally accused are the victims. It seems to be forgotten that to wrongly accuse another of a heinous crime is a despicable thing. If it is very clear that an accusation is malicious or false it is quite right for the person to be called to account.
    If you are videoing a woman having sex with multiple men you usually find signed consent forms and money involved.
    Surely this is North Cyprus as Ayia Napa is Turkish side so the jurisdiction is different to the Greek side.

    Of course you may have been planning to go and live in the North.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    I voted for Ed Davey in 2019 when I was still a member (it's lapsed now). I think he's a decent candidate. I don't know anything about Daisy Cooper but as there won't be an election foor 4+ years and the LDs will have very little relevance nationally during that time, the LDs shouldn't be scared of picking her due to inexperience. I don't think the choice of leader will make much difference either way, and LDs are usually better than Labour at removing underperforming leaders if needed.

    Far more influential for the LDs future success will be the new Labour leader, and how they approach the LDs (will Labour back PR, will they try and come to sort sort of election pact etc).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,242
    Cookie said:

    Ed Davey looks the best candidate for the LDs. Exudes an air if non-threatening centrism and hints at competence. I still hold against him the contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs in the debate in the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 in order that they wouldn't have to fulfil their manifesto promise of supporting a referendum (the justification for which, of course, was that the Lib Dems supposedly wanted a referendum on membership of the EU) but if we could never support a politician who had had at some stage taken a contrived position then we'd be left without many politicians to support. Anyway, Ed looks like the party to hoover up the soft Tory vote.
    Layla Moran: What exactly is pansexual that bisexual is not? My understanding - and this is limited, because it seems to be a term used exclusively by young people - is that it implies Layla us attracted to men, women and transsexuals. But as far as I am aware 'bisexual' doesn't implicitly rule out transsexuals. But maybe if Layla simply said she was bisexual we might nit pay enough attention.

    Pansexuality is attraction based on emotion and personality regardless of gender without the looks based attraction of bisexuality regardless of gender apparently
  • A terrific launch from RLB today. Most statesmanlike. I'm sure the Tories will be quaking in their boots.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Endillion said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    Going the other way from Gabs3 Equally it does seem to be that Cyprus believes once consent is given - that consent is for all men for all time.

    In my case the holiday villa in Cyprus plan has been thrown out - probably back to looking at Turkey or Portugal.
    Do you think Turkey is more liberal and enlightened than Cyprus on this point?
    No but I don't think the police will spend x hours forcing a confession of lying out of the victim.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,874


    On the other hand, there is at times a tendency in the media to whip up a narrative against foreign justice systems for jingoistic purposes which creates a media circus.

    McCann't think of who though.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    When did anyone on here really worry about facts before sounding off? It is like expecting tabloids to do so. The only thing we can be certain of is that we are unlikely to get to the true facts of the case. It is worth remembering that there is a possibility that she is telling the truth and is therefore a double victim, though it is also quite possible that the court was right and she was lying. IN that case those originally accused are the victims. It seems to be forgotten that to wrongly accuse another of a heinous crime is a despicable thing. If it is very clear that an accusation is malicious or false it is quite right for the person to be called to account.
    If you are videoing a woman having sex with multiple men you usually find signed consent forms and money involved.
    Yes, I always think that sensible.

    Oops.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    Going the other way from Gabs3 Equally it does seem to be that Cyprus believes once consent is given - that consent is for all men for all time.

    In my case the holiday villa in Cyprus plan has been thrown out - probably back to looking at Turkey or Portugal.
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    When did anyone on here really worry about facts before sounding off? It is like expecting tabloids to do so. The only thing we can be certain of is that we are unlikely to get to the true facts of the case. It is worth remembering that there is a possibility that she is telling the truth and is therefore a double victim, though it is also quite possible that the court was right and she was lying. IN that case those originally accused are the victims. It seems to be forgotten that to wrongly accuse another of a heinous crime is a despicable thing. If it is very clear that an accusation is malicious or false it is quite right for the person to be called to account.
    If you are videoing a woman having sex with multiple men you usually find signed consent forms and money involved.
    Surely this is North Cyprus as Ayia Napa is Turkish side so the jurisdiction is different to the Greek side.

    Of course you may have been planning to go and live in the North.
    Ayia Napa is Turkish side - really? Are you sure?
  • Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    One of which was sadly her own very limited competence !
    Plus... Labour, LibDems - and anybody else looking to change leader:

    Do NOT put forward somebody who has a desire to wear slabs of clashing primary colours.

    And who cannot accessorise without further horrific colour clashes.

    And who has giant teeth. Those teeth.

    My god.

    They followed you around the room, unlocking some really primal fears.... No wonder she lost. Who was going to vote for a sabre-toothed tiger?
    Did you forget Jo's "white men stuck in the past" tweet? A 140-character suicide note, if ever there was one:

    https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/1186956577699446784?lang=en

  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Ed Davey looks the best candidate for the LDs. Exudes an air if non-threatening centrism and hints at competence. I still hold against him the contrived walkout of Lib Dem MPs in the debate in the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 in order that they wouldn't have to fulfil their manifesto promise of supporting a referendum (the justification for which, of course, was that the Lib Dems supposedly wanted a referendum on membership of the EU) but if we could never support a politician who had had at some stage taken a contrived position then we'd be left without many politicians to support. Anyway, Ed looks like the party to hoover up the soft Tory vote.
    Layla Moran: What exactly is pansexual that bisexual is not? My understanding - and this is limited, because it seems to be a term used exclusively by young people - is that it implies Layla us attracted to men, women and transsexuals. But as far as I am aware 'bisexual' doesn't implicitly rule out transsexuals. But maybe if Layla simply said she was bisexual we might nit pay enough attention.

    Pansexuality is attraction based on emotion and personality regardless of gender without the looks based attraction of bisexuality regardless of gender apparently
    So the same as everyone else ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    HYUFD said:

    Davey would appeal more to Remainer Tories but he lost last time so no guarantee he wins this time

    Yes in classic shoulda woulda coulda territory, the LibDems lead by Davey without a Revoke policy would have done quite well. He is a Tory's LibDem (cf David Laws).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited January 2020
    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    Going the other way from Gabs3 Equally it does seem to be that Cyprus believes once consent is given - that consent is for all men for all time.

    In my case the holiday villa in Cyprus plan has been thrown out - probably back to looking at Turkey or Portugal.
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    When did anyone on here really worry about facts before sounding off? It is like expecting tabloids to do so. The only thing we can be certain of is that we are unlikely to get to the true facts of the case. It is worth remembering that there is a possibility that she is telling the truth and is therefore a double victim, though it is also quite possible that the court was right and she was lying. IN that case those originally accused are the victims. It seems to be forgotten that to wrongly accuse another of a heinous crime is a despicable thing. If it is very clear that an accusation is malicious or false it is quite right for the person to be called to account.
    If you are videoing a woman having sex with multiple men you usually find signed consent forms and money involved.
    Surely this is North Cyprus as Ayia Napa is Turkish side so the jurisdiction is different to the Greek side.

    Of course you may have been planning to go and live in the North.
    Ayia Napa is Turkish side - really? Are you sure?
    It's not - but if it was the "confession" would be even more obviously fake - English written by Turks is fairly obvious.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    If what you say is true, why was it not covered in the BBC article? Was she refused legal counsel?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    One of which was sadly her own very limited competence !
    Plus... Labour, LibDems - and anybody else looking to change leader:

    Do NOT put forward somebody who has a desire to wear slabs of clashing primary colours.

    And who cannot accessorise without further horrific colour clashes.

    And who has giant teeth. Those teeth.

    My god.

    They followed you around the room, unlocking some really primal fears.... No wonder she lost. Who was going to vote for a sabre-toothed tiger?
    Did you forget Jo's "white men stuck in the past" tweet? A 140-character suicide note, if ever there was one:

    https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/1186956577699446784?lang=en

    That was it for me. I had no objection whatsoever to her appearance - quite pleasant-looking, for a politician. And I didn't mind her Hermione Grainger persona. It was her instinctive reversion to identity politics at every opportunity.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337

    So when is the LD contest kicking off? At least it is quite straightforward unlike the dogs dinner that is Labour's.

    Looking at Lab's it feels like Lewis won't get the MPs as he is fishing in the same pond as Long-Bailey. Thornberry seems not to be trusted by either the Corbynites or moderates so again may not get the MPs unless she is lent some.

    At the next stage it feels to me like Starmer and Nandy will get the CLPs and Long-Bailey will get the affiliates so it is then whether Phillips gets enough CLPs.

    Could just be the three candidates going to the very complex selectorate.

    I think the dismissal of "continuity Corbynism" fails to pay enough heed to how much of Corbyn's toxicity was personal.

    I'm not writing as a fan of his policy platform either.. but if even 5-10 points of the Anyone But Corbyn score was down to wreath-laying and IRA and Venezuela (and probably just secondhand tabloid perceptions at that), it's not a bad base to start from. There was a Yougov showing stronger-than-I-expected support for some of his policies when tested in isolation from personalities.

    The bigger issue is whether a Continuity Corbynite replaces that weakness with some of their own. I think RLB might struggle to cut through compared to Starmer/Thornberry/Phillips. I don't dislike her... but for me she doesn't carry as much weight as some other youngish women (eg Phillips, Rayner). Given the pasting Swinson took, there's a balance to be reached between looking fresh and having enough heft to give your opponents a competent kicking.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    A terrific launch from RLB today. Most statesmanlike. I'm sure the Tories will be quaking in their boots.

    Be careful, some dimwits will take you seriously.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    Is this going to be the quality of central office postings over the next 5 years?
    what's the green space above Leeds? I'm guessing the one below Leeds is Wakefield.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
    I'm genuinely puzzled that anyone British could find Jews 'other' enough to be prejudiced about them. It's like harbouring a prejudice against men called Keith.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
    I'm genuinely puzzled that anyone British could find Jews 'other' enough to be prejudiced about them. It's like harbouring a prejudice against men called Keith.
    Plenty of reasons including but not limited to controlling the world's business, media, politicians; oppressing minorities in lands far away; killing J*s*s Chr*st; big noses.

    The list goes on.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Gabs3 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    I'm pretty sure we'd see a lot more retractions in the UK if rape victims were aggressively interrogated for eight hours at a time without legal counsel...

    As a general principle, it's a good idea to have some information on the facts of the case before sounding off.
    If what you say is true, why was it not covered in the BBC article? Was she refused legal counsel?
    Try https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/07/british-teenager-cyprus-rape-case/ - I hope that's suitably right wing for your views.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2020
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
    I'm genuinely puzzled that anyone British could find Jews 'other' enough to be prejudiced about them. It's like harbouring a prejudice against men called Keith.
    Muslims and Jews have been at each others throats since the dawn of time haven't they? Lefties (the extreme left) take Palestine's side over Israel and the anti-semitism is a derivative of that
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    So when is the LD contest kicking off? At least it is quite straightforward unlike the dogs dinner that is Labour's.

    Looking at Lab's it feels like Lewis won't get the MPs as he is fishing in the same pond as Long-Bailey. Thornberry seems not to be trusted by either the Corbynites or moderates so again may not get the MPs unless she is lent some.

    At the next stage it feels to me like Starmer and Nandy will get the CLPs and Long-Bailey will get the affiliates so it is then whether Phillips gets enough CLPs.

    Could just be the three candidates going to the very complex selectorate.

    I think the dismissal of "continuity Corbynism" fails to pay enough heed to how much of Corbyn's toxicity was personal.

    I'm not writing as a fan of his policy platform either.. but if even 5-10 points of the Anyone But Corbyn score was down to wreath-laying and IRA and Venezuela (and probably just secondhand tabloid perceptions at that), it's not a bad base to start from. There was a Yougov showing stronger-than-I-expected support for some of his policies when tested in isolation from personalities.

    The bigger issue is whether a Continuity Corbynite replaces that weakness with some of their own. I think RLB might struggle to cut through compared to Starmer/Thornberry/Phillips. I don't dislike her... but for me she doesn't carry as much weight as some other youngish women (eg Phillips, Rayner). Given the pasting Swinson took, there's a balance to be reached between looking fresh and having enough heft to give your opponents a competent kicking.
    It's also difficult to know how many Labour votes were actually a vote for a hung parliament. A number of those who voted Labour would have done so withiut in any way supporting their manifesto or with any expectation of seeing it enacted. Difficult to know whether yhat amounts to one piint or three points or six points or what.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,438
    edited January 2020
    Jess Philips drowning on GMB
    https://youtu.be/in6Bv52gNDU

    Rejoiners is going to be the next incarnation of the Remain, 2nd Referendum, People Votes. I notice that Bad Al the other day was still claiming that Remain definitely would have won another vote and that the trend was all with the Remain side and that is why Boris had a GE.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    isam said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
    I'm genuinely puzzled that anyone British could find Jews 'other' enough to be prejudiced about them. It's like harbouring a prejudice against men called Keith.
    Muslims and Jews have been at each others throats since the dawn of time haven't they? Lefties (the extreme left) take Palestine's side over Israels and the anti-semitism is a derivative of that
    Er, there were no muslims at the dawn of time. Or at least for many centuries during which there was plenty of anti-semitism (cf. Moses et al).
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited January 2020

    I voted for Ed Davey in 2019 when I was still a member (it's lapsed now). I think he's a decent candidate. I don't know anything about Daisy Cooper but as there won't be an election foor 4+ years and the LDs will have very little relevance nationally during that time, the LDs shouldn't be scared of picking her due to inexperience. I don't think the choice of leader will make much difference either way, and LDs are usually better than Labour at removing underperforming leaders if needed.

    Far more influential for the LDs future success will be the new Labour leader, and how they approach the LDs (will Labour back PR, will they try and come to sort sort of election pact etc).

    An election pact with Labour kills LibDems stone dead.

    Given that LibDems are a party to the traditional left of centre the only place they can win significant numbers of seats and become relevant is from areas where Left of centre party(ies) are elected. These are the seats LibDems need to win if they are ever to become an important party.

    They can target a few Tory seats, these will be won and lost over time, they are swing seats. For a long term foothold and power base they have to take seats from Labour (or SNP in Scotland) where the electorate is left leaning and is disenchanted with Labour (the exception may be the red wall seats that fell to the Tories this time).

    Either they target Labour seats or they continue to fluctuate from 8 to 30 seats drone on about electoral reform and how unfair it is without giving either main party a bloody nose and incentive to do anything about electoral reform.

    Left leaning parties win most seats in areas with most left leaning voters. Sure the policy of targeting Labour will cause some odd Tory wins in the cycle to gain relevance. However I would have thought that the cycle of repeating what they do was so clearly a strategy seeped in failure over several election cycles that they would by now have learnt that the enemy is the one who is close to you and pretends to be you friend. Repetition of the same action expecting a different result is often likened to insanity.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
    I'm genuinely puzzled that anyone British could find Jews 'other' enough to be prejudiced about them. It's like harbouring a prejudice against men called Keith.
    Plenty of reasons including but not limited to controlling the world's business, media, politicians; oppressing minorities in lands far away; killing J*s*s Chr*st; big noses.

    The list goes on.
    Ok, I should have said 'anyone British and not deranged'.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    Is this going to be the quality of central office postings over the next 5 years?
    what's the green space above Leeds? I'm guessing the one below Leeds is Wakefield.
    Well it's still the Diocese of Leeds - so Ripon (which definitely doesn't have a Nandos but Harrogate does).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2020
    ...
  • isam said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Tim Montgonerie, a No 10 aide, has said that the UK government should form a "special relationship" with Hungary. Viktor Orban is a brutish, undemocratic anti-Semite. If Montgonerie stays in his role it will completely undermine any goodwill Boris has made with Jews in this country in recent weeks.

    I wouldn't worry about it. Boris's New Populist Conservatives tend to be Islamophobic and by extension are, or become, semitophilic. I doubt any antisemite will be given houseroom therein. Montgomerie will in future be careful only to attack approved targets, and you're not on that list for the foreseeable.
    Cons (or right wing, "traditional" ones) tend to like Jews institutionally (ie they are supporters of Israel) but to not be so keen on them individually.

    Lab of course the opposite.
    I'm genuinely puzzled that anyone British could find Jews 'other' enough to be prejudiced about them. It's like harbouring a prejudice against men called Keith.
    Muslims and Jews have been at each others throats since the dawn of time haven't they? Lefties (the extreme left) take Palestine's side over Israel and the anti-semitism is a derivative of that
    I inflicted Novara media on myself the other day and they were banging on about how Soleimani was simply a general like Petraeus or Dannatt, but not shit like the Western ones and of course then managed to get on to banging on about Israel.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,350

    Gabs3 said:

    I have little background on her, but the LibDems could do worse than Daisy. She at least seems to know how to campaign.

    The LibDems dodged a bullet when Layla didn't stand last time. Just a shame they decided to walk into a dum-dum instead.

    I think Jo Swinson has been unfairly maligned. She was largely screwed by forces beyond her control.
    One of which was sadly her own very limited competence !
    Competence didn't seem to be much of a factor. After all, a lot of people voted for the self harm inflicting Conservative Party led by Boris Johnson, an inveterate liar and charlatan. In reality of course, they were voting against Mr Thicky, the worst LoTO in the history of this once great nation.
    I see you have taken it well, discovering that nobody in the Conservative Party misses you one little bit?

    Meantime, we are enjoying having power.

    "Let's have a look at what you could have won...."
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,502
    Anecdata with some betting relevance: normally my constituency gets a trickle of 2-3 new members each month, balancing 2-3 drifting away. This month, we had FIFTY-TWO. new members (with again two moving away) If that's typical, we have just got 30,000 new members nationally.

    I have no idea of their political leanings/leadership preferences, of course, though it seems reasonable to suppose that as they were not members before they are not especially Corbynite.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    philiph said:

    I voted for Ed Davey in 2019 when I was still a member (it's lapsed now). I think he's a decent candidate. I don't know anything about Daisy Cooper but as there won't be an election foor 4+ years and the LDs will have very little relevance nationally during that time, the LDs shouldn't be scared of picking her due to inexperience. I don't think the choice of leader will make much difference either way, and LDs are usually better than Labour at removing underperforming leaders if needed.

    Far more influential for the LDs future success will be the new Labour leader, and how they approach the LDs (will Labour back PR, will they try and come to sort sort of election pact etc).

    An election pact with Labour kills LibDems stone dead.

    Given that LibDems are a party to the traditional left of centre the only place they can win significant numbers of seats and become relevant is from areas where Left of centre party(ies) are elected. These are the seats LibDems need to win if they are ever to become an important party.

    They can target a few Tory seats, these will be won and lost over time, they are swing seats. For a long term foothold and power base they have to take seats from Labour (or SNP in Scotland) where the electorate is left leaning and is disenchanted with Labour (the exception may be the red wall seats that fell to the Tories this time).

    Either they target Labour seats or they continue to fluctuate from 8 to 30 seats drone on about electoral reform and how unfair it is without giving either main party a bloody nose and incentive to do anything about electoral reform.

    Left leaning parties win most seats in areas with most left leaning voters. Sure the policy of targeting Labour will cause some odd Tory wins in the cycle to gain relevance. However I would have thought that the cycle of repeating what they do was so clearly a strategy seeped in failure over several election cycles that they would by now have learnt that the enemy is the one who is close to you and pretends to be you friend. Repetition of the same action expecting a different result is often likened to insanity.
    This assumes a reversion to the old 'low income voters vote left, high income voters vote right' model. And also right = low tax, low spend: left = high tax, high spend
    Neither are certain.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Gabs3 said:

    This is the sort of thing that hurts the Left so much. Far too few women are believed when they say they have been raped. But backing people who are convicted of lying about it does not help us win the argument.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

    There are quite a lot of concerns with this conviction:-

    1. The allegation of rape was never tried. Hard to see how you can be convicted of lying about something when whether or not that something occurred has not been properly investigated and tested in court.
    2. There was forensic and medical evidence of sex with various men and injuries. How those happened was not properly investigated or tested in court.
    3. Her retraction was obtained after a very lengthy interview process, possibly under duress and without the benefit of legal advice. Such a statement would not be admissible in an English court. It may well be admissible in a Cypriot court but there is concern, even under Cypriot law, that it was not reliable. There is also evidence that it may have been dictated to her rather than actually made by her.
    4. If she was gang raped, she will have been suffering considerable stress which also raises concerns about the alleged retraction.

    There is also the possibility that the Cypriot authorities seem to have been more concerned about getting rid of an embarrassing story rather than properly investigating a serious allegation. If in fact the retraction was not valid, there is now no chance of the allegation being properly investigated and a young woman will have had her reputation and future career prospects ruined as well as having suffered a hideous crime.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    Anecdata with some betting relevance: normally my constituency gets a trickle of 2-3 new members each month, balancing 2-3 drifting away. This month, we had FIFTY-TWO. new members (with again two moving away) If that's typical, we have just got 30,000 new members nationally.

    I have no idea of their political leanings/leadership preferences, of course, though it seems reasonable to suppose that as they were not members before they are not especially Corbynite.

    Once the poison is out, Nick, the host recovers.
This discussion has been closed.