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  • I think PB Fantasy League might need to be nationalised next by the Magic Marxists and see points reallocated from the elite at the top and shared (say 50%) with those at the less fortunate end of the scale.

    Outrageous suggestion.

    Mind you the way PMT Eindhoven are performing I’ll be top by Christmas and have plenty of points to spare.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2019
    Cyclefree said:


    RobD said:

    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?

    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.
    100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    eek said:

    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?

    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    No the logic of that is that the States come together to determine who represents them as POTUS which is how the Electoral College works.

    National First Past the Post election would eliminate the states influence and would make it a single national post and not a federal one.
    But the electoral collage represents the population of the country as it was some time in the past and not what it currently is.

    However, I suspect changing the electoral collage votes to more accurately represent the current population of States would be an even harder battle than changing to first past the post.
    I thought they were changed after every census - i.e. every 10 years - to reflect the population shifts.
  • maaarsh said:

    A thought on the Labour voting coalition, following on from the thread header. What happens if next time we’ve left and it can’t campaign to rejoin? How much is it’s vote being artificially inflated by people who think the rest of it is nonsense?

    Cuts both ways unfortunately. Next time they can get the greedier end of the leave vote on board with soom goodies
    Good point.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    eek said:

    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?

    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    No the logic of that is that the States come together to determine who represents them as POTUS which is how the Electoral College works.

    National First Past the Post election would eliminate the states influence and would make it a single national post and not a federal one.
    But the electoral collage represents the population of the country as it was some time in the past and not what it currently is.

    However, I suspect changing the electoral collage votes to more accurately represent the current population of States would be an even harder battle than changing to first past the post.
    I know it's an easy typo to make, but I'm still very much enjoying the idea of an electoral collage.
    If I was a primary school teacher in the US, I would totally have my class make one every four years.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    eek said:

    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?

    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    No the logic of that is that the States come together to determine who represents them as POTUS which is how the Electoral College works.

    National First Past the Post election would eliminate the states influence and would make it a single national post and not a federal one.
    But the electoral collage represents the population of the country as it was some time in the past and not what it currently is.

    However, I suspect changing the electoral collage votes to more accurately represent the current population of States would be an even harder battle than changing to first past the post.
    I thought they were changed after every census - i.e. every 10 years - to reflect the population shifts.
    They are. The smaller states do get a higher proportion though.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Noticeable that today's A3 Lib Dem leaflet contained not a single mention of Brexit.

    I wonder if that's a local thing or whether the national party has decided to drop what seemed to be the main plank of their campaign.

    What's your constituency?
    Sutton and Cheam.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    The report this morning that the Polish chef who wielded the narwhal tusk at the terrorist suffered severe knife injuries to his arm to the point he could not feel it but continued the fight
    Just extraordinary courage and he deserves the highest civilian award from HMQ

    Probably be deported because he fails to complete his settled status registration properly.
    That is uncalled for
    It’s going to happen to quite a few people and is a real risk
    2½ million applications have been made, of which ~20% from Poles. Of these 60% have been given settled status and 40% pre-settled status.
    So the number actually rejected is a rounding error? Presumably there’s a few people we don’t want to stay here because of serious criminal records etc.
    It would be good to know the actual number who have been refused settled status.
    And then people can support individual criminals and layabouts if they so chose.
    0.6% "Other outcomes", which means:
    ‘Other outcomes’ includes any outcome that did not result in a grant of leave because the application was withdrawn or void (including where the applicant was ineligible to apply, for example, because they were a British citizen), was invalid as it did not include the required proof of identity and nationality or other mandatory information, or was refused on eligibility or suitability grounds (see the user guidefor more detail).
    and
    As of 31 October 2019, four applications have been refused on suitability grounds.Of these, two applications were refused in October 2019, one in September 2019 and one in August 2019.
    Which makes you wonder what the point of the (ball-ache) process is then.
    So everyone has the correct documentation.
    "Your papers, please"
    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?
    Glad to hear that anecdotal evidence suggests the process for naturalisation of EU nationals is working well, there's not many people who believe that they shouldn't be allowed to stay.
    Yes, every government places requirements on foreigners, there's still many that require regular reporting to a police station, or leaving and returning every so often to be issued a new visa.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2019
    eek said:

    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?

    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    No the logic of that is that the States come together to determine who represents them as POTUS which is how the Electoral College works.

    National First Past the Post election would eliminate the states influence and would make it a single national post and not a federal one.
    But the electoral collage represents the population of the country as it was some time in the past and not what it currently is.

    However, I suspect changing the electoral collage votes to more accurately represent the current population of States would be an even harder battle than changing to first past the post.
    Define "some time in the past" . . . they update it every decade. There is a new census due before the next Presidential Election after this one I believe and it should be updated by then I believe.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Cyclefree said:


    RobD said:

    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?

    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.
    100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.
    Agreed. And then the money saved in the beaurocracy can be spent of the handfull of genuinely dodgy cases.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    Endillion said:

    eek said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?
    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    I don't see that. To me it is fifty equal states electing a president of their federation.
    The States aren't equal as they all have different number of votes in the electoral collage - and it does highlight the fact that the current collage may not accurately represent the current population centres.

    However, it's very much a political question. At the moment the Republican party can win the presidency with the collage as it currently is. That would be a lot harder if the populations of New York, California and Texas (which from memory is still rapidly growing) were properly represented.
    Doesn't full PR take away the check the smaller states have (extra two EC votes each)?
    The answer surely is to convert state votes into EC votes by PR, then let the EC pick the president as currently. Would solve the problem of candidates not campaigning in most of the country, and go some way to ensuring that we don;t get presidents losing the popular vote.
    Main drawback I can think of is that some of the smaller states might get overlooked completely - eg if it's obvious that the Dakotas will be split 2:1 Rep:Dem. Still better than at present though.
    That'd help the Dems out loads as they'd get big proportional EC majorities on the west coast, whereas even the "safe" GOP states are more even.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 931
    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

  • eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?

    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    No the logic of that is that the States come together to determine who represents them as POTUS which is how the Electoral College works.

    National First Past the Post election would eliminate the states influence and would make it a single national post and not a federal one.
    But the electoral collage represents the population of the country as it was some time in the past and not what it currently is.

    However, I suspect changing the electoral collage votes to more accurately represent the current population of States would be an even harder battle than changing to first past the post.
    I thought they were changed after every census - i.e. every 10 years - to reflect the population shifts.
    They are. The smaller states do get a higher proportion though.
    By design.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Noticeable that today's A3 Lib Dem leaflet contained not a single mention of Brexit.

    I wonder if that's a local thing or whether the national party has decided to drop what seemed to be the main plank of their campaign.

    Is it all about Jo "I will be next Prime Minister" Swinson instead or have they moved on from her too?
    That's very interesting. I don't see any mention of her either.

    Two photos of Boris Johnson (one of which isn't too unflattering). A lot about the candidate. Issues: education, health, policing
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    Animal_pb said:

    It's a moot point. They're usually either round his ankles or on fire.

    This is where IMO the 'superhero' meme falls over. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, all the rest, none of them were sexually incontinent and none of them would ever tell a blatant lie about anything important. Does this mean that "Boris" is our heroic battler for the nation against all things wicked only in the eyes of the Daily Express? Yes, probably it does. A shame because - and I mean this, I'm not being sarky - it would be lovely to believe in him. To believe in "Boris".
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    SunnyJim said:



    This comes back to a fundamental point: that Labour Leavers are not 'true Brexiteers.' They have never 'believed' in it ideologically like the Far Right.

    Pretty offensive to claim that only the 'Far Right' believe in Brexit.



    Ideologically this has always been a Far Right fantasy. I think the main corpus of Leave voters go along with it for more pragmatic reasons, as well as few distatestful ones.

    But as an ideology? It has always been Far Right. The bastards, as John Major called them. The Awkward Squad. The ERG, UKIP, the Brexit Party.

    Even Margaret Thatcher wasn't a Brexiteer.
    eek said:

    President of the United States, the States aren't electing 50 separate presidents, right?

    President of the United States, the 50 States are electing a President, not a single state electing a President.
    The logic of that is that each state gets one POTUS president each.
    No the logic of that is that the States come together to determine who represents them as POTUS which is how the Electoral College works.

    National First Past the Post election would eliminate the states influence and would make it a single national post and not a federal one.
    But the electoral collage represents the population of the country as it was some time in the past and not what it currently is.

    However, I suspect changing the electoral collage votes to more accurately represent the current population of States would be an even harder battle than changing to first past the post.
    Not sure this is correct - it is updated. It’s just that some states are SO small relative to the large ones that it’s not possible to give them a small enough share of the EC to reflect this.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Cyclefree said:


    RobD said:

    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?

    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.
    100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.
    Well in Spain I had to prove I had somewhere to live, that I had sufficient income to live on, that I was either entitled to state medical care or had private health insurance, I had an EU passport and that I had registered with the local town hall. This could only be done at a location where a police national officer was their to oversee and authorize the process. So your two questions is a wee bit simplistic.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:


    RobD said:

    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?

    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.
    100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.
    Well in Spain I had to prove I had somewhere to live, that I had sufficient income to live on, that I was either entitled to state medical care or had private health insurance, I had an EU passport and that I had registered with the local town hall. This could only be done at a location where a police national officer was their to oversee and authorize the process. So your two questions is a wee bit simplistic.
    Wait, I thought we were supposed to be the xenophobic anti-foreigner ones?
  • theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    I seriously hope the SNP gains Swinson's seat. It would serve her right for the atrocious and hubristic campaign she has ran.
    I am seriously angry with the Lib Dems at how pathetic a campaign they have ran. I wanted them to do well. They had a once in a many generations chance to be serious and challenge Labour to be the authentic voice of the centre-left rather than the batshit crazy lunatics that have taken over the left. Even though I'm right wing economically I want a sensible left-wing party to exist because we won't [and shouldn't] be in power forever. A sensible Lib Dem party running the country when the Tories lose would have been much better for the country than the out of touch Marxist cabal currently in charge.
    But no Swinson wanted to play absurd Student Union politics rather than be a grown up. She threw away a solid opportunity here. She doesn't deserve a future in British politics.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    This is where IMO the 'superhero' meme falls over. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, all the rest, none of them were sexually incontinent and none of them would ever tell a blatant lie about anything important. Does this mean that "Boris" is our heroic battler for the nation against all things wicked only in the eyes of the Daily Express? Yes, probably it does. A shame because - and I mean this, I'm not being sarky - it would be lovely to believe in him. To believe in "Boris".

    And you are aware of the sexual activities of a range of superheroes how exactly?
  • Cyclefree said:



    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.


    So no tax records? no national insurance records? no national insurance number? no employment / employee records? No housing lease / rental records? no GP records? no school or education record? no bank records? no social security records?

    So what have they been doing here for the past 7 years?

  • theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    Might be an unsought blessing if Swinson does lose her seat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    edited December 2019

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    Smaller states getting a minimum of 3 ECVs barely affects anything - here is the ECVs on population.

    11.3 Arizona
    9 Colorado
    33.3 Florida*
    5.3 Iowa*
    2.3 Maine*
    16.8 Michigan*
    9.2 Minnesota*
    4.7 Nevada*
    2.3 New Hampshire*
    16.8 North Carolina*
    19.7 Ohio*
    21.7 Pennsylvania*
    9.8 Wisconsin*
    8.2 Alabama*
    1.3 Alaska*
    5 Arkansas*
    65.2 California*
    6.1 Connecticut*
    1.6 Delaware*
    1.1 District of Columbia*
    17 Georgia*
    2.4 Hawaii*
    2.7 Idaho*
    21.9 Illinois*
    11.2 Indiana*
    4.9 Kansas*
    7.5 Kentucky*
    7.9 Louisiana*
    10.1 Maryland*
    11.4 Massachusetts*
    5.1 Mississippi*
    10.3 Missouri*
    1.7 Montana*
    3.2 Nebraska*
    15.1 New Jersey*
    3.5 New Mexico*
    33.4 New York*
    1.2 North Dakota*
    6.6 Oklahoma*
    6.7 Oregon*
    1.8 Rhode Island*
    8.1 South Carolina*
    1.4 South Dakota*
    11.1 Tennessee*
    45 Texas*
    4.9 Utah*
    1.1 Vermont*
    14.1 Virginia*
    11.9 Washington*
    3.2 West Virginia*
    1 Wyoming*

    2016 result: If everything is rounded, and Kansas & New York receive 1 extra ECV due to rounding it would have been 303-235.
  • nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:


    RobD said:

    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?

    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.
    100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.
    Well in Spain I had to prove I had somewhere to live, that I had sufficient income to live on, that I was either entitled to state medical care or had private health insurance, I had an EU passport and that I had registered with the local town hall. This could only be done at a location where a police national officer was their to oversee and authorize the process. So your two questions is a wee bit simplistic.
    2 of the questions you've given are my questions. Do you live here legally means you have somewhere to live here. Do you have an EU passport is covered by are you an EU citizen. As for registration, this is what we are doing here so the very process we are talking about covers that.
    I couldn't care less if it was simplistic or not. These people moved here legally when they were entitled to live here legally. They should be able to stay here legally. If they don't have sufficient income, if they don't have medical care or insurance then that is our problem. They were entitled to use the NHS so they should be entitled to continue to use the NHS.
    Changing things regarding income/healthcare can happen with future migrants. Those who've already lived here are our responsibility already. Register them and move on.
  • The Tories are praying the LD vote doesn’t collapse any further. 50% or thereabouts of Remainers are with Labour, if that goes up to 60% or higher as per 2017, a HP is highly likely.

    I still predict something of a localised LD surge in certain targeted seats, which may well be enough to result in a Tory net loss.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    All what money?
  • Free broadband for the have-nots, rail fares slashed for south-east commuters: Labour's program has been adventurous and unexpected. Stung by accusations of being a Marxist cult, Labour have clearly decided to re-brand Jezza as a paternal, One-Nation figure - a kind of red Macmillan - turning his benevolent gaze to every corner of society to right a thousand wrongs. Will it work?
  • The report this morning that the Polish chef who wielded the narwhal tusk at the terrorist suffered severe knife injuries to his arm to the point he could not feel it but continued the fight

    Just extraordinary courage and he deserves the highest civilian award from HMQ

    He certainly deserves a special award for nipping in the bud all that 'attacking a terrorist with a narwhal tusk, isn't it just so marvellously British' bullshit just by the fact of being Polish.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    RobD said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:


    RobD said:

    I don't see the problem in requiring non-citizens to have immigration paperwork?

    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.
    100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.
    Well in Spain I had to prove I had somewhere to live, that I had sufficient income to live on, that I was either entitled to state medical care or had private health insurance, I had an EU passport and that I had registered with the local town hall. This could only be done at a location where a police national officer was their to oversee and authorize the process. So your two questions is a wee bit simplistic.
    Wait, I thought we were supposed to be the xenophobic anti-foreigner ones?
    Actually I had to do this even before we thought of leaving the EU and wanted to remain for more than 90 days. The one single thing that the UK could learn from Spain is actually to introduce a health service access card, no card only genuine emergency treatment and you pay before you leave. You cant book an appointment collect a prescription without it. It even tells the pharmacist if one has to pay some of the cost because your income is to high.
  • Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/
    Again the Senate is by design. All States are equal in the Senate by design, population doesn't matter in the Senate whatsoever.
    The Democrats know that. They can and should be trying to win over the small states.
  • theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    Don't mention that round these parts, did you see OGH spread bet position?

    (Wisely hedged on the downside as it now seems)
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    The Mori poll should have a tory share of 43 if it is line with their Scottish poll
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Noticeable that today's A3 Lib Dem leaflet contained not a single mention of Brexit.

    I wonder if that's a local thing or whether the national party has decided to drop what seemed to be the main plank of their campaign.

    What's your constituency?
    Sutton and Cheam.
    A Leave constituency.

    Lol
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/
    Again the Senate is by design. All States are equal in the Senate by design, population doesn't matter in the Senate whatsoever.
    The Democrats know that. They can and should be trying to win over the small states.
    Of course it matters.
    If you consistently have a minority of the population entrenching policies which take no account whatever of the opinions of the majority, that is not viable in the long run.
    Particularly when that majority provides the bulk of the funding for the federal government.
  • Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/

    The Supreme Court is the issue. When a highly partisan President elected by a minority can get his nominations through a highly partisan Senate elected by a minority, it is going to lead to those in the majority asking questions about whether this should be allowed to continue.
  • theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    Don't mention that round these parts, did you see OGH spread bet position?

    (Wisely hedged on the downside as it now seems)
    OGH thinks (or pretends to think) that the Lib Dems are challenging to win seats like Warrington South.

    The phrase "don't drink your own kool aid" springs to mind.

  • geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    TOPPING said:

    And you are aware of the sexual activities of a range of superheroes how exactly?

    I'm not - not 100% - but I am happy to take the likes of Batman at face value. He appears to respect women, certainly no #metoo issues have ever come to light, and so in the absence of evidence to the contrary, he's a genuinely decent guy as far as I am concerned. Ditto the others. "Boris" OTOH? Quite.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Free broadband for the have-nots, rail fares slashed for south-east commuters: Labour's program has been adventurous and unexpected. Stung by accusations of being a Marxist cult, Labour have clearly decided to re-brand Jezza as a paternal, One-Nation figure - a kind of red Macmillan - turning his benevolent gaze to every corner of society to right a thousand wrongs. Will it work?

    No one will bother to work out that the rail fare policy is a transfer of wealth from the poorer to the richer.
    Because that of course is "details".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212

    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    Don't mention that round these parts, did you see OGH spread bet position?

    (Wisely hedged on the downside as it now seems)
    OGH thinks (or pretends to think) that the Lib Dems are challenging to win seats like Warrington South.

    The phrase "don't drink your own kool aid" springs to mind.

    Looks like Warrington South will go down to the wire.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    "All that money they had..."
    The figures for week two are:
    Labour Party - £3,488,000 (compared with £218,500 in week one)
    Conservatives - £2,967,000 (compared with £5,673,646 in week one)
    The Brexit Party - £2,250,000 (compared with £250,000 in week one)
    Liberal Democrats - £251,000 (compared with £275,000 in week one)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50592251
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    edited December 2019

    Cyclefree said:



    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.


    So no tax records? no national insurance records? no national insurance number? no employment / employee records? No housing lease / rental records? no GP records? no school or education record? no bank records? no social security records?

    So what have they been doing here for the past 7 years?

    You are only obliged to keep tax records going back 7 years. I regularly cull my paperwork otherwise I’d be drowning in the stuff. Asking for stuff post the referendum is one thing - but only if you make clear what you have to keep. Asking for paperwork to prove what you were doing when you had an absolute right to come here is - or can be - unreasonable.
    And some of the stuff you list - tax and NI and social security - is stuff the government already has so it ought to be possible for the government to make a decision on the basis of what they already have once they know the person has a EU passport without asking for more.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    The Tories are praying the LD vote doesn’t collapse any further. 50% or thereabouts of Remainers are with Labour, if that goes up to 60% or higher as per 2017, a HP is highly likely.

    I still predict something of a localised LD surge in certain targeted seats, which may well be enough to result in a Tory net loss.


    lol - only in seats held by tories though eh?


    You do try - I give you that
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/
    The Supreme Court is the issue. When a highly partisan President elected by a minority can get his nominations through a highly partisan Senate elected by a minority, it is going to lead to those in the majority asking questions about whether this should be allowed to continue.
    Or to put it more simply, democracy depends upon the consent of the losers:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/how-america-ends/600757/
    A principle which operates on both directions.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    It can be if you are asking people to provide information for a time when no such paperwork was needed and when no-one could have imagined that they might need to keep it. The referendum was only 3 years ago after all. Expecting people to have documentation for the previous 4 years might well be unreasonable depending on what is being asked for.


    So no tax records? no national insurance records? no national insurance number? no employment / employee records? No housing lease / rental records? no GP records? no school or education record? no bank records? no social security records?

    So what have they been doing here for the past 7 years?

    You are only obliged to keep tax records going back 7 years. I regularly cull my paperwork otherwise I’d be drowning in the stuff. Asking for stuff post the referendum is one thing - but only if you make clear what you have to keep. Asking for paperwork to prove what you were doing when you had an absolute right to come here is - or can be - unreasonable.
    And some of the stuff you list - tax and NI and social security - is stuff the government already has so it ought to be possible for the government to make a decision on the basis of what they already have once they know the person has a EU passport without asking for more.
    +1 Well said!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    edited December 2019
    Sandpit said:

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.

    2nd places matter a lot as a base for future progress under FPTP. That's why if you truly support the LDs it is never a wasted vote. If they can't win your seat, get them into 2nd. If they can't make 2nd, get them into 3rd. The Long March.
  • Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/

    The Supreme Court is the issue. When a highly partisan President elected by a minority can get his nominations through a highly partisan Senate elected by a minority, it is going to lead to those in the majority asking questions about whether this should be allowed to continue.
    What are they going to do about it?
    The Founders wanted it to work this way.
    The US Constitution says this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Supreme Court will confirm this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Small States will never accept a constitutional amendment to the way it works.

    Even if Warren gets elected she can't change any of that. Not unless she can get the small states to surrender their powers voluntarily which isn't going to happen. The large states can either split into multiple smaller states, or quit the union (though the Civil War said that was illegal) or the parties can adapt to try and be more attractive to smaller states.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
    Just telling you what is, not what should be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    And you are aware of the sexual activities of a range of superheroes how exactly?

    I'm not - not 100% - but I am happy to take the likes of Batman at face value. He appears to respect women, certainly no #metoo issues have ever come to light, and so in the absence of evidence to the contrary, he's a genuinely decent guy as far as I am concerned. Ditto the others. "Boris" OTOH? Quite.
    He'd be more at how among this set of superheroes:
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1190634/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://order-order.com/2019/12/02/jeremy-corbyn-expelled-labour-party/

    If only.....

    So, there is a war Jezbollah might be happy with - the target being the only Jewish state on the planet.

    The left also seems strangely silent on what is going on in China.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
    Indeed. This says a lot about the mentality of many in positions of power in the Nasty Party.
  • Pulpstar said:

    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    Don't mention that round these parts, did you see OGH spread bet position?

    (Wisely hedged on the downside as it now seems)
    OGH thinks (or pretends to think) that the Lib Dems are challenging to win seats like Warrington South.

    The phrase "don't drink your own kool aid" springs to mind.

    Looks like Warrington South will go down to the wire.
    LOL very good!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    I'm not - not 100% - but I am happy to take the likes of Batman at face value. He appears to respect women, certainly no #metoo issues have ever come to light, and so in the absence of evidence to the contrary, he's a genuinely decent guy as far as I am concerned. Ditto the others. "Boris" OTOH? Quite.

    I have met Batman and I can tell you he is very much a ladies' man.
  • geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
    Indeed. This says a lot about the mentality of many in positions of power in the Nasty Party.
    The system was set up by that vile authoritarian Theresa May. Thankfully she's no longer in power, hopefully post-election it will get simplified dramatically.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited December 2019
    Sandpit said:

    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.
    And there is the stupidity of LibDems.
    Until they understand that as a left of centre party the largest pool of available seats are those held by the parties to the left they will fail to grow.
    There is very little chance of having two left of centre major parties in our system. Winning a few Tory seats may make them happy, but it is a strategy limited to a handful of seats.
    There are over 200 seats held by a left wing party that is despised by a large number of people who vote to the left.
    That is where most of the possible LibDem long term gains reside, if they ever want to be a party with a regular good sized representation.
    The swing seats they may win or lose are the Tory seats they have so many orgasms over winning occasionally or coming second.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited December 2019
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.

    2nd places matter a lot as a base for future progress under FPTP. That's why if you truly support the LDs it is never a wasted vote. If they can't win your seat, get them into 2nd. If they can't make 2nd, get them into 3rd. The Long March.
    That makes sense. For the LDs this is probably about the next election. At some stage there is going to be a big backlash against the Tories and it doesn't look like Labour will be in a great position to benefit.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Only one local by election left before the GE a PC defence in the Rhonnda so we are left with just polls and canvassing feedback to give us our steer
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236

    The Tories are praying the LD vote doesn’t collapse any further. 50% or thereabouts of Remainers are with Labour, if that goes up to 60% or higher as per 2017, a HP is highly likely.
    I still predict something of a localised LD surge in certain targeted seats, which may well be enough to result in a Tory net loss.

    We - Labour - need the LDs to take a bunch of Con 'remain' seats. If they fail to do that, there is no hung parliament.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2019/12/02/jeremy-corbyn-expelled-labour-party/
    If only.....
    So, there is a war Jezbollah might be happy with - the target being the only Jewish state on the planet.
    The left also seems strangely silent on what is going on in China.

    The Labour party, perhaps.
    The Guardian, for example, has worked with the BBC in exposing the detention camps, and has been pretty vocal about the issue.
  • Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/

    The Supreme Court is the issue. When a highly partisan President elected by a minority can get his nominations through a highly partisan Senate elected by a minority, it is going to lead to those in the majority asking questions about whether this should be allowed to continue.
    What are they going to do about it?
    The Founders wanted it to work this way.
    The US Constitution says this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Supreme Court will confirm this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Small States will never accept a constitutional amendment to the way it works.

    Even if Warren gets elected she can't change any of that. Not unless she can get the small states to surrender their powers voluntarily which isn't going to happen. The large states can either split into multiple smaller states, or quit the union (though the Civil War said that was illegal) or the parties can adapt to try and be more attractive to smaller states.

    There will come a point when the Democrats win back the Senate. When that happens, a lot of things will probably happen quite quickly. One of the first will be to increase the size of the Supreme Court. That does not need a constitutional amendment.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited December 2019
    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.
    And there is the stupidity of LibDems.
    Until they understand that as a left of centre party the largest pool of available seats are those held by the parties to the left they will fail to grow.
    There is very little chance of having two left of centre major parties in our system. Winning a few Tory seats may make them happy, but it is a strategy limited to a handful of seats.
    There are over 200 seats held by a left wing party that is despised by a large number of people who vote to the left.
    That is where most of the possible LibDem long term gains reside, if they ever want to be a party with a regular good sized representation.
    The swing seats they may win or lose are the Tory seats they have so many orgasms over winning occasionally or coming second.
    If they were serious about winning they wouldn't have elected the idiot Swinson as leader. Possibly the least able politician ever to lead a national party

    No wonder Vince hung on as long as he did
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
    Indeed. This says a lot about the mentality of many in positions of power in the Nasty Party.
    The system was set up by that vile authoritarian Theresa May. Thankfully she's no longer in power, hopefully post-election it will get simplified dramatically.
    With Patel at the Home Office? Dream on pal!
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    kinabalu said:

    The Tories are praying the LD vote doesn’t collapse any further. 50% or thereabouts of Remainers are with Labour, if that goes up to 60% or higher as per 2017, a HP is highly likely.
    I still predict something of a localised LD surge in certain targeted seats, which may well be enough to result in a Tory net loss.

    We - Labour - need the LDs to take a bunch of Con 'remain' seats. If they fail to do that, there is no hung parliament.
    Strange then that Labour just announced a policy that may encourage LDs in Con remain seats to vote Labour...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The Tories now trashing freedom of movement . Any evidence that anyone using FOM has ever committed a terrorist act in the UK ! Thought not , just more lies from Bozo and the rest .
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    edited December 2019
    The Lib Dems are uncompetitive in almost all Labour seats and more so in Tory ones because the Lib Dems have almost no appeal in aggregate to areas of deprivation.
    The exception that proves the rule is Sheffield Hallam, Labour's least deprived constituency by some distance. The broad seat structure and biggest indicator of whether your seat is Labour or (Tory/Lib Dem) is deprivation.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2019/12/02/jeremy-corbyn-expelled-labour-party/

    If only.....

    So, there is a war Jezbollah might be happy with - the target being the only Jewish state on the planet.

    The left also seems strangely silent on what is going on in China.

    They are also silent about the 140 Iranian demonstrators shot dead by the Iranian authorities in recent days and the young Iranian women sentenced to years in prison for throwing away and refusing to wear their hijabs. Too busy shouting about Boris and his letterbox comments, I suppose.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kinabalu said:

    This is where IMO the 'superhero' meme falls over. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, all the rest, none of them were sexually incontinent and none of them would ever tell a blatant lie about anything important. Does this mean that "Boris" is our heroic battler for the nation against all things wicked only in the eyes of the Daily Express? Yes, probably it does. A shame because - and I mean this, I'm not being sarky - it would be lovely to believe in him. To believe in "Boris".

    Doctor Manhattan tries to have a MMF threesome with himself and his girlfriend in Watchmen #5. That is definitely something Boris would be into.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.

    2nd places matter a lot as a base for future progress under FPTP. That's why if you truly support the LDs it is never a wasted vote. If they can't win your seat, get them into 2nd. If they can't make 2nd, get them into 3rd. The Long March.
    Which is the folly of tactical voting. Every vote they 'give away' weakens the LibDems for next time.
    I like the sweet innocence they have that it is a two way process. Mostly they are givers and Labour are receivers. Labour end up laughing all the way to the next election.
  • geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
    Indeed. This says a lot about the mentality of many in positions of power in the Nasty Party.
    The system was set up by that vile authoritarian Theresa May. Thankfully she's no longer in power, hopefully post-election it will get simplified dramatically.
    With Patel at the Home Office? Dream on pal!
    Patel has liberalised a number of policies since she was appointed Home Secretary. She has liberalised non-EU migration for scientists and potential NHS workers.
    Drop the caricatures and please say what Patel has actually done for you to say that please.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The Lib Dems are uncompetitive in almost all Labour seats and more so in Tory ones because the Lib Dems have almost no appeal in aggregate to areas of deprivation.
    The exception that proves the rule is Sheffield Hallam, Labour's least deprived constituency by some distance. The broad seat structure and biggest indicator of whether your seat is Labour or (Tory/Lib Dem) is deprivation.

    Indeed. Its in Labour's political interest to ensure deprivation continues, it is in Tory interest to end deprivation. If you want deprivation to end then vote Tory.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236

    Free broadband for the have-nots, rail fares slashed for south-east commuters: Labour's program has been adventurous and unexpected. Stung by accusations of being a Marxist cult, Labour have clearly decided to re-brand Jezza as a paternal, One-Nation figure - a kind of red Macmillan - turning his benevolent gaze to every corner of society to right a thousand wrongs. Will it work?

    It might. For example, this rail innovation appeals to middle class commuters but it will not annoy the lower orders. Why? Because Jeremy is already very strongly associated with improving the buses. Indeed it was his signature policy for months well before this GE was called. That will have sunk in. People can see - people who use buses can see - that the issue is a real priority. It has not been dreamt up on the fly just for Dec 12th. "You can't fatten the pig on market day" (Bing Crosby).
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    theakes said:

    The way things have panned out I honestly cannot see the Lib Dems getting more than 12 seats. Could be another single finger calamity. All that money they had what has happened, the Leadersip appears to have lost heart and doomsday AGAIN beckons. If this is what happens then the who party will need to be reformed from top to bottom, including a proper clear out of personnel.

    I can see a lot of second places in the South East, up from third in many cases, which should give them more of a launchpad for the future. Most of the 2017 LDs should be safe (but not many of the defectors), and they might pick up a handful of others around the place. I reckon 15-20.
    And there is the stupidity of LibDems.
    Until they understand that as a left of centre party the largest pool of available seats are those held by the parties to the left they will fail to grow.
    There is very little chance of having two left of centre major parties in our system. Winning a few Tory seats may make them happy, but it is a strategy limited to a handful of seats.
    There are over 200 seats held by a left wing party that is despised by a large number of people who vote to the left.
    That is where most of the possible LibDem long term gains reside, if they ever want to be a party with a regular good sized representation.
    The swing seats they may win or lose are the Tory seats they have so many orgasms over winning occasionally or coming second.
    If they were serious about winning they wouldn't have elected the idiot Swinson as leader. Possibly the least able politician ever to lead a national party

    No wonder Vince hung on as long as he did
    Given the current competition from the other Party Leaders, that is some accolade you have awarded there!
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Floater said:

    https://order-order.com/2019/12/02/jeremy-corbyn-expelled-labour-party/

    If only.....

    So, there is a war Jezbollah might be happy with - the target being the only Jewish state on the planet.

    The left also seems strangely silent on what is going on in China.

    It is utterly astonishing that the media haven't run with that interview he did on Press TV. It is an unqualified expression of anti Semitism.

    How and why is he getting away with this?
  • nico67 said:

    The Tories now trashing freedom of movement . Any evidence that anyone using FOM has ever committed a terrorist act in the UK ! Thought not , just more lies from Bozo and the rest .

    I have never seen even one Tory try to link FoM with terrorism. If you're going to attack straw men then why not provide a link to what you're claiming rather than BS?
  • kinabalu said:

    Free broadband for the have-nots, rail fares slashed for south-east commuters: Labour's program has been adventurous and unexpected. Stung by accusations of being a Marxist cult, Labour have clearly decided to re-brand Jezza as a paternal, One-Nation figure - a kind of red Macmillan - turning his benevolent gaze to every corner of society to right a thousand wrongs. Will it work?

    It might. For example, this rail innovation appeals to middle class commuters but it will not annoy the lower orders. Why? Because Jeremy is already very strongly associated with improving the buses. Indeed it was his signature policy for months well before this GE was called. That will have sunk in. People can see - people who use buses can see - that the issue is a real priority. It has not been dreamt up on the fly just for Dec 12th. "You can't fatten the pig on market day" (Bing Crosby).
    What about people who drive? Which is the vast, vast, vast majority of workers in the North.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Pulpstar said:

    The Lib Dems are uncompetitive in almost all Labour seats and more so in Tory ones because the Lib Dems have almost no appeal in aggregate to areas of deprivation.
    The exception that proves the rule is Sheffield Hallam, Labour's least deprived constituency by some distance. The broad seat structure and biggest indicator of whether your seat is Labour or (Tory/Lib Dem) is deprivation.

    The MRP has Lib Dems making a net gain of 1 from the Tories. With the Lib Dem vote dropping and the Tory vote firming up even allowing for tactical voting I can't see the net gain being in double figures. Had BXP not stood down I think a lot of 'near misses' would be very much in play.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    What level of inanity will force a Swinson resignation?
    If she loses her seat obviously, but if not, single figure seats? Under 15?
    Shes trashed the political careers of a number of defectors and taken her party from 20% down towards 10. Hopelessly crap woman.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    nico67 said:

    The Tories now trashing freedom of movement . Any evidence that anyone using FOM has ever committed a terrorist act in the UK ! Thought not , just more lies from Bozo and the rest .

    One of the 2017 London Bridge attackers was an Italian citizen.
  • What level of inanity will force a Swinson resignation?
    If she loses her seat obviously, but if not, single figure seats? Under 15?
    Shes trashed the political careers of a number of defectors and taken her party from 20% down towards 10. Hopelessly crap woman.

    Seeing the defectors careers end will be the silver lining to the Lib Dems atrocious performance.
  • kinabalu said:

    Animal_pb said:

    It's a moot point. They're usually either round his ankles or on fire.

    This is where IMO the 'superhero' meme falls over. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, all the rest, none of them were sexually incontinent and none of them would ever tell a blatant lie about anything important. Does this mean that "Boris" is our heroic battler for the nation against all things wicked only in the eyes of the Daily Express? Yes, probably it does. A shame because - and I mean this, I'm not being sarky - it would be lovely to believe in him. To believe in "Boris".
    He's got more of a 'Deadpool' thing going on. Definitely not a traditional hero type.

    Tbf, Deadpool is pretty popular, though.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,236
    It's difficult to follow the thread with the whole chain of prior quotes being displayed with almost every comment. Like, this one, if you scroll through what you basically get is a sea of grey and in the middle of it the constant repetition of the same photo of Elizabeth Warren. A very nice photo of a very nice lady, it has to be said, just imagine if it were one of Matt Hancock, but still, not ideal.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    kinabalu said:

    Free broadband for the have-nots, rail fares slashed for south-east commuters: Labour's program has been adventurous and unexpected. Stung by accusations of being a Marxist cult, Labour have clearly decided to re-brand Jezza as a paternal, One-Nation figure - a kind of red Macmillan - turning his benevolent gaze to every corner of society to right a thousand wrongs. Will it work?

    It might. For example, this rail innovation appeals to middle class commuters but it will not annoy the lower orders. Why? Because Jeremy is already very strongly associated with improving the buses. Indeed it was his signature policy for months well before this GE was called. That will have sunk in. People can see - people who use buses can see - that the issue is a real priority. It has not been dreamt up on the fly just for Dec 12th. "You can't fatten the pig on market day" (Bing Crosby).
    What about people who drive? Which is the vast, vast, vast majority of workers in the North.
    And South, East and West
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    The Tories now trashing freedom of movement . Any evidence that anyone using FOM has ever committed a terrorist act in the UK ! Thought not , just more lies from Bozo and the rest .

    I have never seen even one Tory try to link FoM with terrorism. If you're going to attack straw men then why not provide a link to what you're claiming rather than BS?
    They’ve just said that FOM could allow terrorists into the UK.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Pulpstar said:

    The Lib Dems are uncompetitive in almost all Labour seats and more so in Tory ones because the Lib Dems have almost no appeal in aggregate to areas of deprivation.
    The exception that proves the rule is Sheffield Hallam, Labour's least deprived constituency by some distance. The broad seat structure and biggest indicator of whether your seat is Labour or (Tory/Lib Dem) is deprivation.

    Sheffield Hallam is less deprived than Cambridge, Canterbury and Kensington? I don't know the place but it seems unlikely. And in Broxtowe, the Labour vote was and I believe still is concentrated in the near-wealthiest areas (because that was also the near-university area). There's plenty of polling data that link between class and party is much weaker these days - the real pointer is age structure.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Ed Davey is surely now the LDs last best hope? The rest are utterly inept or get nicked for punching their partners in the face. Or can't spell Vera.
  • Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/

    The Supreme Court is the issue. When a highly partisan President elected by a minority can get his nominations through a highly partisan Senate elected by a minority, it is going to lead to those in the majority asking questions about whether this should be allowed to continue.
    What are they going to do about it?
    The Founders wanted it to work this way.
    The US Constitution says this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Supreme Court will confirm this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Small States will never accept a constitutional amendment to the way it works.

    Even if Warren gets elected she can't change any of that. Not unless she can get the small states to surrender their powers voluntarily which isn't going to happen. The large states can either split into multiple smaller states, or quit the union (though the Civil War said that was illegal) or the parties can adapt to try and be more attractive to smaller states.

    There will come a point when the Democrats win back the Senate. When that happens, a lot of things will probably happen quite quickly. One of the first will be to increase the size of the Supreme Court. That does not need a constitutional amendment.

    It will require 60 seats in the Senate unless they plan to end the filibuster too. It would be a very dangerous precendent to set.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    The Tories now trashing freedom of movement . Any evidence that anyone using FOM has ever committed a terrorist act in the UK ! Thought not , just more lies from Bozo and the rest .

    I have never seen even one Tory try to link FoM with terrorism. If you're going to attack straw men then why not provide a link to what you're claiming rather than BS?
    They’ve just said that FOM could allow terrorists into the UK.
    Could. Great word isn't it.
  • nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    The Tories now trashing freedom of movement . Any evidence that anyone using FOM has ever committed a terrorist act in the UK ! Thought not , just more lies from Bozo and the rest .

    I have never seen even one Tory try to link FoM with terrorism. If you're going to attack straw men then why not provide a link to what you're claiming rather than BS?
    They’ve just said that FOM could allow terrorists into the UK.
    Still not providing a source I see.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    It might. For example, this rail innovation appeals to middle class commuters but it will not annoy the lower orders. Why? Because Jeremy is already very strongly associated with improving the buses. Indeed it was his signature policy for months well before this GE was called. That will have sunk in. People can see - people who use buses can see - that the issue is a real priority. It has not been dreamt up on the fly just for Dec 12th. "You can't fatten the pig on market day" (Bing Crosby).

    It should appeal to middle class voters because the policy overwhelmingly benefits the better off at the expense of the poorer. It is a subsidy to better off train travellers. Is that a policy you are hugely in favour of?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Pocohontas in I support the system that benefits me most shocker
    I thought the US was a federal republic. So much for the views of the smaller states... ;)
    But Hillary won more votes throughout that federal republic in 2016 ;)
    But not more states within the federal republic. The Democrats want to dissolve the federal nature of the constitution but to do so would require the smaller states to consent to their being shafted . . . not going to happen!
    The problem of consent applies on both sides in a democracy.
    The Republican majority in the Senate was elected by states accounting for only 44% of the US electorate:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/senators-kavanaugh-represented-44-percent-us/572623/
    The Supreme Court is the issue. When a highly partisan President elected by a minority can get his nominations through a highly partisan Senate elected by a minority, it is going to lead to those in the majority asking questions about whether this should be allowed to continue.
    What are they going to do about it?
    The Founders wanted it to work this way.
    The US Constitution says this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Supreme Court will confirm this is the way it is meant to work.
    The Small States will never accept a constitutional amendment to the way it works.
    Even if Warren gets elected she can't change any of that. Not unless she can get the small states to surrender their powers voluntarily which isn't going to happen. The large states can either split into multiple smaller states, or quit the union (though the Civil War said that was illegal) or the parties can adapt to try and be more attractive to smaller states.
    There will come a point when the Democrats win back the Senate. When that happens, a lot of things will probably happen quite quickly. One of the first will be to increase the size of the Supreme Court. That does not need a constitutional amendment.
    It will require 60 seats in the Senate unless they plan to end the filibuster too. It would be a very dangerous precendent to set.
    It might be. But you seem remarkably unconcerned about the very dangerous precedents set by the Republicans in recent years.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    kinabalu said:

    It's difficult to follow the thread with the whole chain of prior quotes being displayed with almost every comment. Like, this one, if you scroll through what you basically get is a sea of grey and in the middle of it the constant repetition of the same photo of Elizabeth Warren. A very nice photo of a very nice lady, it has to be said, just imagine if it were one of Matt Hancock, but still, not ideal.

    It's total crap. Why can't they just reinstate the earlier collapsing quote chain? I think it's to do with their new fading-out older comments innovation, which is also total crap.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    edited December 2019
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    It might. For example, this rail innovation appeals to middle class commuters but it will not annoy the lower orders. Why? Because Jeremy is already very strongly associated with improving the buses. Indeed it was his signature policy for months well before this GE was called. That will have sunk in. People can see - people who use buses can see - that the issue is a real priority. It has not been dreamt up on the fly just for Dec 12th. "You can't fatten the pig on market day" (Bing Crosby).

    It should appeal to middle class voters because the policy overwhelmingly benefits the better off at the expense of the poorer. It is a subsidy to better off train travellers. Is that a policy you are hugely in favour of?
    Only the middle class can currently afford to use trains. Reducing fares opens them up to poorer people.
    Surely you can see that?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    edited December 2019

    geoffw said:

    .. ✂︎ .. 100% agreed. The process should be simplified. It should be possible to do with just 2 questions to answer.
    Question 1: Do you currently live here lawfully?
    If yes . . .
    Question 2: Are you an EU citizen?
    If yes . . . Grant Settled Status.
    Job done.

    If you have proofs for Q1 and Q2 I think you would get "pre-settled status".
    Why should it be "pre"? Just deem them Settled and move on!
    Indeed. This says a lot about the mentality of many in positions of power in the Nasty Party.
    The system was set up by that vile authoritarian Theresa May. Thankfully she's no longer in power, hopefully post-election it will get simplified dramatically.
    With Patel at the Home Office? Dream on pal!
    Patel has liberalised a number of policies since she was appointed Home Secretary. She has liberalised non-EU migration for scientists and potential NHS workers.
    Drop the caricatures and please say what Patel has actually done for you to say that please.
    Indeed, and she plans to introduce an immigration system that is non-discriminatory - that cares more about what you can offer to the UK, than which passport you’re lucky enough to hold.
  • Are we due anyone else other than IPSOS today?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Usual deliberate misrepresentation of what FOM actually means. Hint: it is about ability to live and work on an ongoing basis, not simple ability to enter and leave the country. The latter is Visa policy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    edited December 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    The Lib Dems are uncompetitive in almost all Labour seats and more so in Tory ones because the Lib Dems have almost no appeal in aggregate to areas of deprivation.
    The exception that proves the rule is Sheffield Hallam, Labour's least deprived constituency by some distance. The broad seat structure and biggest indicator of whether your seat is Labour or (Tory/Lib Dem) is deprivation.

    Sheffield Hallam is less deprived than Cambridge, Canterbury and Kensington? I don't know the place but it seems unlikely. And in Broxtowe, the Labour vote was and I believe still is concentrated in the near-wealthiest areas (because that was also the near-university area). There's plenty of polling data that link between class and party is much weaker these days - the real pointer is age structure.
    Here's the work on this Nick
    https://www.citymetric.com/politics/i-ranked-every-uk-constituency-deprivation-and-then-coloured-them-party-affiliation-fun
    https://twitter.com/Helenreflects/status/1190780285740343296
    Deprivation is not the opposite of wealth, I think Kensington has more wealth but also more deprivation than Hallam for instance.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    geoffw said:

    A German friend of mine fears deportation after 'only' living here, marrying a Brit., working, using the NHS, paying taxes, etc for 55 years. Until recently, they had legal advice to lie low and under no circumstances approach the authorities because they had evidence but not every single paper proving events in their lives going back to ... er, 1966. In those days we had already set up EFTA and joined the EEC in 1972-3 so there was more of a spirit of European cooperation and the bone-headed idea of ripping up all earlier treaties didn't arise.

    This is similar to our case. But we were not asked for evidence of residence for every past year, just evidence for last 7 years. We provided scanned Council Tax payments showing both the name and address. I think your friend should consider Citizens' Advice because, at least here in Edinburgh, they were able to deal with the matter competently.
    Thanks. I'll suggest that. My own (Tory) MP initially suggested that he could probably help but I don't think he can although he's undoubtedly far closer to the govt than my friends' MP.

    I've yet to find out how their application is going but there seems no clear view of what the law will be after 12.12.19. (I don't even know if my EHIC will continue to be valid.)

    After Windrush, I think we should just have a standard statute of limitations for immigration law, i.e. if you can prove that you've been here >6 years without challenge or objection you can stay.
This discussion has been closed.