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  • Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm amazed he said 'coalition of chaos'.

    Was he trolling Cammo?

    We're definitely rerunning the 2015 election campaign.
    Remind me how well that government went...
    We won a majority and destroyed the Lib Dems. It was a good campaign.
    A Phyrric victory and a disastrous government though.
    I can't remember anything disastrous or Pyhrric about it besides permitting May to become PM but she's gone now good riddance.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D
  • Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It wouldn't surprise me to see it dealt with in the next Parliament but I think they might have worried about a 'dementia tax' style blow up if they'd announced anything during this campaign.
    No, the Conservatives are in denial about student debt and how much is now being dumped on the government borrowing.

    They just don't want to think about it or talk about it or take any action about it.
  • RobD said:

    Floater said:

    RobD said:

    Another mile down the road to Damascus for SLab. Marvellous that Richard Leonard who worked for the GMB when they conspired with Glasgow City Council to shaft low paid women out of hundreds of millions of pounds has now seen the light.

    https://twitter.com/LabourRichard/status/1198367174429233153?s=20

    Didn't they have their high court case thrown out? I'm not sure why Labour are banging on about there being an injustice...
    They did lose, but are appealing

    The Labour drone interviewed by Marr earlier had to say "if they win their court case"

    From what I read it didn't sound as though there was much chance of the appeal succeeding, unless the first judge got it totally wrong?
    So if they lose the appeal labour will pay them on the grounds they are righting a wrong which the courts have said is not a wrong

    Good luck with that
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm amazed he said 'coalition of chaos'.

    Was he trolling Cammo?

    We're definitely rerunning the 2015 election campaign.
    Remind me how well that government went...
    We won a majority and destroyed the Lib Dems. It was a good campaign.
    A Phyrric victory and a disastrous government though.
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm amazed he said 'coalition of chaos'.

    Was he trolling Cammo?

    We're definitely rerunning the 2015 election campaign.
    Remind me how well that government went...
    We won a majority and destroyed the Lib Dems. It was a good campaign.
    A Phyrric victory and a disastrous government though.
    Nah, we won, got a leave vote and we're hopefully about to leave. And we smashed the Lib Dems to pieces. Hoping this time we go one better and put them to bed completely.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    RobD said:

    Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    This would be a good policy. I don't think the cost of the loan shouldn't grow in real terms.
    They used to be linked to RPI, so neutral in real terms. Maybe add 1%, but 6% is just silly. From memory it was a too-clever Osborne wheeze to help package them and sell them off as if they were bonds. The problem is that the delinquency rate is horrific - especially among EU students, Brits who have emigrated and those now self-employed or working for their own company.
  • Dr. Foxy, Pyrrhic*.

    Good general, damned unlucky to have his name associated with a victory not worth having.
  • Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
  • Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?
  • Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people.
  • Afternoon fellow PBers and having just watched the Tory manifesto launch on SKY News, that is one hell of a tagline Ed Conway the Business editor has just tweeted: "For every £1 the Conservatives have pledged to spend, Labour has said it will spend £28!"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    What's the cost of these nurses, 750 million ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    Anyone got a link to the pdf for the manifesto?

    Not online yet. Should appear on https://vote.conservatives.com/news shortly.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696

    Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?

    To win votes. It just means other taxes will go up, stamp duty, anti-landlord activities etc...
  • Do they ever do polling on how manifestos go down with regions? I would be interested to see how this manifesto goes with Wales, the North and the Midlands, areas Johnson needs to win.
  • Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?

    We're taxed enough already.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
  • Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people.
    Indeed and I'm saying being fiscally responsible should appeal more to young people.

    The government borrowing billions to bribe overentitled WASPI boomers would be paid for by you and me - not by older voters.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
    I've come around to the idea of keeping it at 650, especially with the extra responsibilities MPs will have after leaving the EU.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The LibDems and the SNP will never agree to it though....
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    "I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people."

    Fiscal prudence should attract voters of any age.
  • Foxy said:

    The massive difference in spending commitments is of course deliberate, its aimed to make Labours 28 times higher commitments look suicidal for the economy and feed into that narrative

    So it does seem as if the Tory commitment to left behind towns is going to be lip service. Let them eat Brexit, while the SE prospers.
    I see a massive amount of new development in Brexit / Blue Labour central while the SE becomes ever more overcrowded and unaffordable.

    I'm happy to keep things that way.

    Don't know about other parts of the country though.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696

    Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    Tbh, the student loans system needs a complete rethink. The 6% interest rate is usurious and graduates are getting a very poor deal. Also marketising degrees has given students far too much power and turned them into consumers rather than students. When I went to uni, if it made an unpopular decision it was a case of "deal with it" now they be d over backwards to accommodate even the most ridiculous of demands lest they lose the £9k fees.
  • Afternoon fellow PBers and having just watched the Tory manifesto launch on SKY News, that is one hell of a tagline Ed Conway the Business editor has just tweeted: "For every £1 the Conservatives have pledged to spend, Labour has said it will spend £28!"

    Game over?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,401

    Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?

    We're taxed enough already.
    Actually, you are not. I am though!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited November 2019

    Do they ever do polling on how manifestos go down with regions? I would be interested to see how this manifesto goes with Wales, the North and the Midlands, areas Johnson needs to win.

    More nurses and rozzers and no tax cuts for the rich southern dandies. It will be seen as practical I'd imagine with the added bonus of getting Brexit done
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited November 2019

    Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people.
    Indeed and I'm saying being fiscally responsible should appeal more to young people.

    The government borrowing billions to bribe overentitled WASPI boomers would be paid for by you and me - not by older voters.
    That isn't appealing though, for whatever reason.

    You're not addressing my point, this isn't an attack on Labour, I'm saying if the Tories kept their spending plans but also proposed scrapping the interest rate on student loans they'd get more students voting for them.

    Your point of "well they should be appealing" isn't grounded in reality, I'm just telling you what they could do if they wanted to. Whether it's deliverable or not really isn't relevant to this discussion.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341
    edited November 2019

    Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people.</blo
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,706
    are we going to see the magic money tree with Labours commitments hanging from it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    are we going to see the magic money tree with Labours commitments hanging from it?

    We're going to need a bigger tree.
  • Stocky said:

    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    "I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people."

    Fiscal prudence should attract voters of any age.

    It doesn't though.

    You can argue that's wrong, that's fine. But I was simply answering what would appeal - and that answer is what would.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?

    Very good question. Thinking 5 minutes ahead and no more, I assume.
  • From this thread it sounds very much like a 'don't scare the horses' manifesto.

    Understandable given persistent double digit leads.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    The SNP on just 40%, 10% down on their 2015 total and 5% down on the Yes 2014 total and the Tories holding all but 1 of their Scottish seats is no mandate at all for indyref2 and Boris if he wins a majority will correctly refuse one
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275

    It would be funny if the SNP dropped below 40% of the vote and got less than half the seats in Scotland - 29 seats.

    Wouldn't be great for that second referendum mandate, that.

    Be even funnier if Corbyn won in England and sickened arseholes like you
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    MaxPB said:

    Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?

    To win votes. It just means other taxes will go up, stamp duty, anti-landlord activities etc...
    Alternatively, spending could fall, or the ridiculously long tax code massively simplified to reduce the professional avoidance industry.
  • RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
    I've come around to the idea of keeping it at 650, especially with the extra responsibilities MPs will have after leaving the EU.
    I agree though I do not have a strong opinion on it
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275

    Of course, if you live in a devolved country, you can vote iin a UK GE in the knowledge it will have relatively little impact on your life.

    What utter bollox, you vote knowing that you will be stuck with what England voted for whether it ruins your country or not.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2019

    That isn't appealing though, for whatever reason.

    You're not addressing my point, this isn't an attack on Labour, I'm saying if the Tories kept their spending plans but also proposed scrapping the interest rate on student loans they'd get more students voting for them.

    Your point of "well they should be appealing" isn't grounded in reality, I'm just telling you what they could do if they wanted to. Whether it's deliverable or not really isn't relevant to this discussion.

    I disagree.

    Young people who don't understand the problems of getting into debt and aren't used to balancing a budget are more attracted to Labour's "we will throw money at every problem" bullshit. Older people who know better recoil in horror.

    But that doesn't mean all young people are attracted to Labour. Actually compared to historic levels we are doing as well with young voters as we normally do.

    PS when do people stop getting classed as young? Being married with children I no longer really class myself as a young voter despite being a graduate with student loan and being a Millenial [I hate that name]. I feel like this is the last election I could be considered young for.
  • From this thread it sounds very much like a 'don't scare the horses' manifesto.

    Understandable given persistent double digit leads.

    Yes, it's basically hold onto the support they've got, they don't need any more.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
    I've come around to the idea of keeping it at 650, especially with the extra responsibilities MPs will have after leaving the EU.
    I don't think that, overall, it actually matters that much it was just a bit of virtue signalling. for me it's more important that the constituencies are as even as possible.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696



    That isn't appealing though, for whatever reason.

    You're not addressing my point, this isn't an attack on Labour, I'm saying if the Tories kept their spending plans but also proposed scrapping the interest rate on student loans they'd get more students voting for them.

    Your point of "well they should be appealing" isn't grounded in reality, I'm just telling you what they could do if they wanted to. Whether it's deliverable or not really isn't relevant to this discussion.

    Tbh, you aren't all young people. Loads of my friends are seething this morning over Labour's £58bn bung to older voters because they know we wil end up paying for it. I think we will see a policy on student debt interest anyway, but it will come after the election like George's national living wage. It smacks of a bribe to announce it before and hurts our credibility.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
    I've come around to the idea of keeping it at 650, especially with the extra responsibilities MPs will have after leaving the EU.
    I don't think that, overall, it actually matters that much it was just a bit of virtue signalling. for me it's more important that the constituencies are as even as possible.
    Yeah, boundary reform is critical.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275
    Flashy5 said:

    It would be funny if the SNP dropped below 40% of the vote and got less than half the seats in Scotland - 29 seats.

    Wouldn't be great for that second referendum mandate, that.

    If 40% is a mandate for Bozo's Brexit deal then it should be sufficient for Indyref2.
    If they got less than half the seats and just over a third of the vote in Scotland then it really wouldn't be.
    They won the last Hollyrood election. They should get a referendum every time they do that if they have the votes. It’s for the Scots to decide whether that gets boring or wasteful.
    She's arguing for one next year (the next Scottish election isn't until May 2021) and wants to use this general election as a mandate for that.

    She was decidedly lukewarm about a sequel at the last Scottish election in May 2016.
    She won’t be leader in 2021.
    Keep trying Harry , someday someone will believe you
  • Stocky said:

    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    "I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people."

    Fiscal prudence should attract voters of any age.

    The Conservative strategy on student debt is the opposite of fiscal prudence.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,682
    Trump has far higher approval ratings with Leavers than Remainers and it is most of the former voting Tory or Brexit Party now
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people.
    Is it mandatory to take a degree and the associated debt? Not sure how it's my responsibility to pay for your education when I had to leave school at 16 and go to work. As far as I know you have the options of going to work and paying your way, doing a degree that will earn you enough to pay of your debt or do a mickey mouse attendance course that will never pay for itself.
    Which choice did you make?
  • That isn't appealing though, for whatever reason.

    You're not addressing my point, this isn't an attack on Labour, I'm saying if the Tories kept their spending plans but also proposed scrapping the interest rate on student loans they'd get more students voting for them.

    Your point of "well they should be appealing" isn't grounded in reality, I'm just telling you what they could do if they wanted to. Whether it's deliverable or not really isn't relevant to this discussion.

    I disagree.

    Young people who don't understand the problems of getting into debt and aren't used to balancing a budget are more attracted to Labour's "we will throw money at every problem" bullshit. Older people who know better recoil in horror.

    But that doesn't mean all young people are attracted to Labour. Actually compared to historic levels we are doing as well with young voters as we normally do.

    PS when do people stop getting classed as young? Being married with children I no longer class myself as a young voter despite being a graduate with student loan and being a Millenial [I hate that name]. I feel like this is the last election I could be considered young with.
    The majority of young people are not voting Tory, that's a fact.

    I was asked what could the Tories do to appeal to more young people, I answered it.

    Your consistent "well being fiscally responsible should appeal" isn't relevant, because it doesn't appeal. You can argue that's wrong, that's fine.

    But it's not what I was asked. I was asked what would appeal: and the interest rate on student loans would. Your proposition isn't appealing, even if it's right.

    That's my point, you've not engaged with the point at hand, simply gone onto something else.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
    I've come around to the idea of keeping it at 650, especially with the extra responsibilities MPs will have after leaving the EU.
    I don't think that, overall, it actually matters that much it was just a bit of virtue signalling. for me it's more important that the constituencies are as even as possible.
    Yeah, boundary reform is critical.
    the current boundaries are based on the 2001 census...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696
    HYUFD said:

    Trump has far higher approval ratings with Leavers than Remainers and it is most of the former voting Tory or Brexit Party now
    Yes but we need to win back as many Tory remainers as possible and Trump is poison for them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275
    RobD said:

    Another mile down the road to Damascus for SLab. Marvellous that Richard Leonard who worked for the GMB when they conspired with Glasgow City Council to shaft low paid women out of hundreds of millions of pounds has now seen the light.

    https://twitter.com/LabourRichard/status/1198367174429233153?s=20

    Didn't they have their high court case thrown out? I'm not sure why Labour are banging on about there being an injustice...
    Leonard as union leader was the one helping Labour block equal pay for women in GCC. What a turncoat.
  • HYUFD said:

    Trump has far higher approval ratings with Leavers than Remainers and it is most of the former voting Tory or Brexit Party now
    Trump is toxic. Keep him away
  • saddened said:

    Floater said:

    I as a young person have received no reason for me to vote Tory, thanks Johnson

    LOL - they could have given you a ferrari and you would still say no.

    We all know who you prefer
    I think under Cameron they at least tried to be moderate and propose some policies like gay marriage, etc. but they're not even trying anymore.

    In a way I kind of respect them for that - but it does make my decision very easy.

    Having said that, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country, so my vote is fairly useless. Think I will have to vote Lib Dem tactically.
    What is the current equivalent of gay marriage? What policy could they offer?
    I think scrapping the interest rate on student loans would be something good that would appeal to me for sure.
    Its what the Conservatives should do or alternatively put a cap on maximum repayments or alternatively write off debts above a certain level.

    But they seem to be in denial on this issue even when the ONS gives them tens of billions to take some action.
    It is - but this is why young people feel ignored, because the Tories just continunally ignore this issue.

    They obviously do it wisely because they know young people don't vote, so it doesn't impact their voting behaviour.

    But from a moral level, I can't blame people for feeling hard done by, if I am honest.
    The interest we pay on loans is nothing like the interest we pay on Labour blowing up the deficit.
    I was asked what the Tories could do to appeal to more young people.
    Is it mandatory to take a degree and the associated debt? Not sure how it's my responsibility to pay for your education when I had to leave school at 16 and go to work. As far as I know you have the options of going to work and paying your way, doing a degree that will earn you enough to pay of your debt or do a mickey mouse attendance course that will never pay for itself.
    Which choice did you make?
    You're not arguing with the point I made.

    I'm not saying this idea is a good idea, or not (although I think it is), I'm simply saying what would get more young people to vote for them. That's all.

    Whether it's right or wrong really isn't relevant to this discussion. I'm simply answering it purely from a votes perspective.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275

    One good Tory policy - banning export of plastic waste to non-OECD countries - its a problem in Indonesia where First World plastic to be "recycled" is simply burnt, leading to dioxin levels in eggs only exceeded in Vietnam (Agent Orange).

    Thinking about your own boiled eggs perhaps?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193

    Stocky said:

    "Fiscal prudence should attract voters of any age."

    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    "It doesn't though.

    You can argue that's wrong, that's fine. But I was simply answering what would appeal - and that answer is what would."

    Ah OK - well if you are attracted to fiscal imprudence with the public purse then I think you should vote Labour.

    I like your moniker by the way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Pretty direct piece:

    The claim itself is spurious. Johnson is a man who has just struck a deal with Europe and appears to have shifted significantly toward a friendly relationship with the European Union being his priority. The £500 million figure is easy to pull apart for anyone with access to a smartphone. And Johnson has repeatedly insisted that the NHS will not be on the table in any trade deal with the US
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275
    MaxPB said:

    Artist said:

    MaxPB said:

    This would be a pretty amazing result for Bozza. There's potential that we could see the Tories gain more seats and get ~30% of the vote.

    There are five SNP seats which require a swing of less than 1.4% for the Tories to win, including Pete Wishart's seat.
    Indeed, the SNP could conceivably be seeing a lot of the vote increase coming in Labour held seats meaning we might get an SNP -> Con swing elsewhere.
    Scottish Tory surge KLAXON being well abused today. All you Tory dreamers on here frothing at the mouth at the thought of it.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    New @Survation phone poll for @GMB 20-23 Nov
    Con 41% -1 since last week
    Lab 30% +2
    Lib Dem 15% +1%
    Brexit 5% ±0
    Green 3% ±0

    Surge!
  • Afternoon fellow PBers and having just watched the Tory manifesto launch on SKY News, that is one hell of a tagline Ed Conway the Business editor has just tweeted: "For every £1 the Conservatives have pledged to spend, Labour has said it will spend £28!"

    Game over?
    It doesn't matter what Labour promise. They're not going to get in.

    The Tories will, and they will have to get Brexit done, the cost of which will make the cost of Labour's proposals look like small change.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited November 2019
    Stocky said:


    Stocky said:

    "Fiscal prudence should attract voters of any age."

    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    "It doesn't though.

    You can argue that's wrong, that's fine. But I was simply answering what would appeal - and that answer is what would."

    Ah OK - well if you are attracted to fiscal imprudence with the public purse then I think you should vote Labour.

    I like your moniker by the way.

    I'm not voting Labour, because in my seat it's utterly pointless.

    All I was saying - and this is the last time I will say it - is that fiscal "prudence" doesn't appeal to young voters. You're very welcome to argue they're completely wrong to believe that but at the end of the day they still won't vote for the Tories en masse.

    And thank you.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Sadly that’s politics. Mrs May was indeed right, but the manifesto launch wasn’t the right time to broach the subject with the electorate.

    Hopefully we see a government with a decent majority come out of their election, who are prepared to look at the long ‘too-difficult list’ that I posted here a couple of days ago. Too many issues have been punted because any solution would be politically unpopular, but we elect a government to deal with this sh....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    Not "new", but certainly "more".
  • A great afternoon for the blue teams. Good manifesto launch by Boris and Rangers beat Hamilton 3-1 putting them back level with Celtic and by Christmas clear blue water between the 2 Glasgow clubs and the rest. Came across my copy of the photo taken when Margaret Thatcher visited Ibrox back in the mid 80s, the other day.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    And 'new' is not the same as 'more'.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    "All I was saying - and this is the last time I will say it - is that fiscal "prudence" doesn't appeal to young voters. You're very welcome to argue they're completely wrong to believe that but at the end of the day they still won't vote for the Tories en masse."

    You may be right - my kids certainly don`t believe in fiscal prudence when it comes to my finances lol.
  • HYUFD said:

    The SNP on just 40%, 10% down on their 2015 total and 5% down on the Yes 2014 total and the Tories holding all but 1 of their Scottish seats is no mandate at all for indyref2 and Boris if he wins a majority will correctly refuse one

    I am shocked and saddened that all the folk who have been saying that the BJ party should refuse indy ref II in all circumstances are saying that the BJ party should refuse indy ref II in a particular circumstance. I can hardly bear the disappointment.
  • New @Survation phone poll for @GMB 20-23 Nov
    Con 41% -1 since last week
    Lab 30% +2
    Lib Dem 15% +1%
    Brexit 5% ±0
    Green 3% ±0

    Surge!

    I have hope lol
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275

    It would be funny if the SNP dropped below 40% of the vote and got less than half the seats in Scotland - 29 seats.

    Wouldn't be great for that second referendum mandate, that.

    If the SNP are in power in Scotland I would argue that gives them the mandate for a second referendum. If people don't want that then they can vote for other parties.
    They're arguing that this election will provide that mandate.

    That message has been heard loud and clear by Unionists north of the border.
    No they are saying it will reconfirm the last vote that provided the mandate, so double mandate. You Tory arseholes are sh** scared of democracy , whine and whinge about how much you subsidise us but sh** scared to allow a democratic vote.
  • 11 point Survation gap is interesting but Labour are still stuck at 30%
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    spudgfsh said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    Labour promised that too - a majority has been found for something lol
    The question is, will he keep DCs reduction of the number of MPs to 600 at the same time?
    I've come around to the idea of keeping it at 650, especially with the extra responsibilities MPs will have after leaving the EU.
    I don't think that, overall, it actually matters that much it was just a bit of virtue signalling. for me it's more important that the constituencies are as even as possible.
    Yeah, boundary reform is critical.
    Yes, but it’s more than that.

    I think we need a constitution written down ( huge task), and I think we need voting reform. I’m in favour of something like the mixed constituency/list we have in Wales or Germany. You can still get a majority but you’ve got to do very well.

    FPTP is producing too many weird results now over too long a period (Blair getting a big majority on 36 v 33% and winning I think nearly 100 more seats in England whilst losing (!) the popular vote, UKIP getting nothing for nearly 1 in 8 votes, and yes the Libs getting nobbled permanently. There’s also the threat of Venezuela on 35% of the vote).

    Too many pointless votes. Like my own in a seat with a 17k majority.

    It’s corrosive in the long term.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    So what? The detail was kept back is all, it's a stupid, cynical policy and definitely opportunistic, regardless of whether it literally was something they came up with this week, which I've no doubt is not the case.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    edited November 2019

    11 point Survation gap is interesting but Labour are still stuck at 30%

    Updated the plot - https://imgur.com/WSe1Zil

    They need something to give them a kick. Perhaps a blatant bribe of 3 million women would do the trick? :p
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    So if we ignore the Opinium outlier the polls have clustered at the 10 to 13% lead range with 42 30 15 4 looking about the mark as of now
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Announcements that involve another £58bn in uncosted spending?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,846
    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    I understood that they cant simply repeal it, but need to replace it with something.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    The patient will see the difference.
  • HYUFD said:

    Trump has far higher approval ratings with Leavers than Remainers and it is most of the former voting Tory or Brexit Party now
    Trump can go f**k himself and the sooner he is gone the better.

    Please don't imply Leave voters like that orange turd.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    So if we ignore the Opinium outlier the polls have clustered at the 10 to 13% lead range with 42 30 15 4 looking about the mark as of now

    2-3% either way causes a landslide or could prevent a majority. Fun times.
  • Can we have a link to that Survation poll?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    Guardian reporting the Tories will get rid of FTPA.

    Well, they've got my vote. :D

    I understood that they cant simply repeal it, but need to replace it with something.
    Well of course, otherwise there'd be no limit to the length of a parliament.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    malcolmg said:

    It would be funny if the SNP dropped below 40% of the vote and got less than half the seats in Scotland - 29 seats.

    Wouldn't be great for that second referendum mandate, that.

    If the SNP are in power in Scotland I would argue that gives them the mandate for a second referendum. If people don't want that then they can vote for other parties.
    They're arguing that this election will provide that mandate.

    That message has been heard loud and clear by Unionists north of the border.
    No they are saying it will reconfirm the last vote that provided the mandate, so double mandate. You Tory arseholes are sh** scared of democracy , whine and whinge about how much you subsidise us but sh** scared to allow a democratic vote.
    In case you missed it, there was a massive democratic vote only five years ago:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Scottish_independence_referendum
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited November 2019

    So if we ignore the Opinium outlier the polls have clustered at the 10 to 13% lead range with 42 30 15 4 looking about the mark as of now

    This would suggest a 30 to 40 majority, maybe 50 but no landslide unless the north and Midlands disproportionately crater and the Tories 'hold on' in the South
  • kle4 said:

    So if we ignore the Opinium outlier the polls have clustered at the 10 to 13% lead range with 42 30 15 4 looking about the mark as of now

    2-3% either way causes a landslide or could prevent a majority. Fun times.
    If that 11 point lead with Survation starts dropping, I think Twitter is going to collapse
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    HYUFD said:

    Trump has far higher approval ratings with Leavers than Remainers and it is most of the former voting Tory or Brexit Party now
    Trump can go f**k himself and the sooner he is gone the better.

    Please don't imply Leave voters like that orange turd.
    +1
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    It would be funny if the SNP dropped below 40% of the vote and got less than half the seats in Scotland - 29 seats.

    Wouldn't be great for that second referendum mandate, that.

    If the SNP are in power in Scotland I would argue that gives them the mandate for a second referendum. If people don't want that then they can vote for other parties.
    They're arguing that this election will provide that mandate.

    That message has been heard loud and clear by Unionists north of the border.
    No they are saying it will reconfirm the last vote that provided the mandate, so double mandate. You Tory arseholes are sh** scared of democracy , whine and whinge about how much you subsidise us but sh** scared to allow a democratic vote.
    In case you missed it, there was a massive democratic vote only five years ago:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Scottish_independence_referendum
    Hard to imagine that it has been a generation since then...
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    RobD: "They need something to give them a kick. Perhaps a blatant bribe of 3 million women would do the trick?"

    And a goodly proportion of their spouse`s I should imagine. It`s hard to assess the effect that this policy will have.
  • Just asking for a friend, has MalcolmG ever managed to make a posting on PB without being rude/using foul language/insulting fellow PBers who dont think the sun shines out of Nicola Sturgeon's arse [any or all of the above]?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    RobD said:

    11 point Survation gap is interesting but Labour are still stuck at 30%

    Updated the plot - https://imgur.com/WSe1Zil

    They need something to give them a kick. Perhaps a blatant bribe of 3 million women would do the trick? :p
    Both have reached their ceiling, it seems.

    Surprised not to see this chart in a header yet.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,899

    Why on earth has Johnson boxed himself in financially with this ridiculous pledge on taxes?

    Are they pledging anything other than leaving the rates at the same level? If not, then fiscal drag will raise more money as the years pass.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,275
    HYUFD said:

    The SNP on just 40%, 10% down on their 2015 total and 5% down on the Yes 2014 total and the Tories holding all but 1 of their Scottish seats is no mandate at all for indyref2 and Boris if he wins a majority will correctly refuse one

    MUPPET
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Interesting that they simply did not mention it at all.

    Just asking for a friend, has MalcolmG ever managed to make a posting on PB without being rude/using foul language/insulting fellow PBers who dont think the sun shines out of Nicola Sturgeon's arse [any or all of the above]?

    Yes.
This discussion has been closed.