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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Brexit Carol – how last time is shaping views of GE2019

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:



    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today has brought 2 more depressing reasons for hoping the Tories don’t succeed:-

    1. Farage giving them a free run in some seats.
    2. The Tories proposal to renege on what has been agreed with the Irish government about prosecuting soldiers for crimes committed during the Troubles. Bad law, bad policy, morally repulsive and shows Ireland and others that the word of the British government cannot be relied upon.

    Yuck, yuck.

    Meanwhile Labour’s vote share creeps up.

    More yuck.

    If only they could both lose.

    I’m not sure the Tories are in charge of Farage’s decision.
    I am more cynical than you. Cui bono? The consensus seems to be the Tories. And I’m supposed to believe the Tories had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Hmm....

    Jonathon was

    Not presenting it as some killer fact merely my opinion that the Conservative party as was has died and been replaced by Brexit/UKIP. I find that depressing because there was something to admire about the genuine Conservative party. Whereas what has replaced it is mean-minded, incoherent and seems to value nothing about what is best about Britain.
    The reports of the death of the Conservative Party have been greatly exaggerated.

    The new intake will be very much One Nation Conservatives.
    The PM is very much a One Nation Conservative.

    People should stop confusing One Nation with Remainer. They are not synonyms.
    Yes, very much so. Similarly, there is often a lazy belief that dry as dust economically = socially conservative = Eurosceptic. And sometimes it does. But often it doesn't. Calling anyone Eurosceptic right-wing is confusing and unhelpful. There are members of all parties who fall into one of these categories.
    Yes put me in that category. Bone dry economically, a real hater of debt, fairly socially conservative, and Europhile. There is no party where I neatly fit.
    But every financial asset is someone else's debt. It's how the system works.
    Up to an extent with banking, but not in equities.

  • RobD said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Sorry that is wrong. The last 5 polls on wiki frommthis weekend give 12-13-12-10-8.

    You are in danger of becoming a bit over excited
    The last two are +7 and +8

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193986028727668737?s=20

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193936113242648577?s=20
    ComRes fieldwork is nearly a week old.
    The Golden Rule of opinion polling. Dismiss the one you don't like.
    ComRes fieldwork was 30th Oct to 31st Oct?
    https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ComRes_Sunday-Express_Opinion-Poll_Nov19_Tables.pdf
    No, I think this one was a special poll for a remain alliance group.
    Ah, I see. No sign of it on Wiki!

    Anyway, four of the last five polls in terms of fieldwork have the CON lead in double-digits:

    Deltapoll 12%
    YouGov 13%
    Opinium 12%
    Panelbase 10%

    The fifth poll being the ICM hot off the presses (8% lead).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    How many candidates do we think UKIP will field in 2017 Conservative-won seats?

    Gap in the market.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    egg said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Friday 13th!!!!! Whose idea to count the votes on Friday 13th!!!
    Dominic Cummings.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    egg said:

    Ave_it said:

    Here's a poll for all the CORBYNISTAS on here!

    Ave it research - taken somewhere on my keyboard

    LAB 99%
    CON 0%
    OTH 1%
    There you go Corbynistas make the most of it! :lol:

    In conjunction with the Evo Morales Polling Solutions company.
    Now for the Lib Dem bar chart shows them winning 😆
    LibDems winning here - or the puppy gets it.....
  • olm said:

    kle4 said:

    olm said:

    And so it goes on .......

    Labour Candidate Claimed Mural Isn't Anti-Semitic https://t.co/E43W05NOtT

    It isn't clearly anti-semitic.
    If you think it is, can you explain?
    I never get tired of this classic. Even some otherwise very sensible people use it. Butpeople claiming it wasn't clearly anti-semitic should ask this chap about that:

    Jeremy Corbyn has expressed "sincere regret" at failing to look more closely at an allegedly anti-Semitic mural in London before questioning its removal...

    In a statement, Mr Corbyn said he had intended to make a "general comment" about the removal of public art on the grounds of freedom of speech.

    He added: "I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43523445

    Now, not everything Mr Corbyn says is true. But unless he was lying because he is weak, he at least thinks it was clearly anti-semitic since it was only because of poor attention that he did not spot that immediately. I think it highly unlikely he would defend himself on the grounds of poor attention being given if it was credible to use another defence.
    I don't expect Corbyn was lying; perhaps misconceived, which is very different.
    I never get tired of this classic 'the mural was anti-semitic' with still no explanation as to why. (Corbyn's view of it being anti-semitic is not an explanation why). I'm happy to be illuminated otherwise if I'm misconceived and missed something?
    Take a look at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour for an explanation of why this mural is anti-Semitic. Indeed, the artist was pretty clear when he said, "Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are".
  • How many candidates do we think UKIP will field in 2017 Conservative-won seats?

    Gap in the market.....

    Nil as far as I understand
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156

    How many candidates do we think UKIP will field in 2017 Conservative-won seats?

    Gap in the market.....

    I would think however willing they might be (and one of the stories on their website last week was a chap saying back the Boris deal, even though the official line was not to) their chaos and incompetence diminish their ability to. I suppose if any upset BXP candidates need a wagon to hitch to (or back to) at the last minute?
  • How many candidates do we think UKIP will field in 2017 Conservative-won seats?

    Gap in the market.....

    They don't have a leader and they don't have any money. Reckon they will stand fewer seats than the Yorkshire Party for sure, and maybe even fewer than Mebyon Kernow.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,721
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    I had missed this - it's now on record. Thanks
    There are some very good documentaries to watch on the Beeb at the moment plus Dr Strangelove - one of the top 5 funniest films ever made.
    A brilliant film, but even Kubrick couldn't satirise today's reality:

    https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1193923239963222016?s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    edited November 2019
    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    I had missed this - it's now on record. Thanks
    There are some very good documentaries to watch on the Beeb at the moment plus Dr Strangelove - one of the top 5 funniest films ever made.
    A brilliant film, but even Kubrick couldn't satirise today's reality:

    https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1193923239963222016?s=19
    The man is fascinatingly awful.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    I had missed this - it's now on record. Thanks
    There are some very good documentaries to watch on the Beeb at the moment plus Dr Strangelove - one of the top 5 funniest films ever made.
    I've always loved Dr. S. I'm downloading it. Thanks again. My wife thinks I'm mad.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    May I ask who you're going with this time? Please don't tell me Corbyn?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    You’ve got the taint.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    +1 I have always voted Tory at GE's since I got the vote. I am not supporting the party as it is now. But I will vote and it is LD or Labour...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,489
    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Comparing two graphs from completely different elections with completely different circumstances and pinning your electoral strategy on it is wishful thinking.
    I haven't compared anything, thanks. Haven't looked at any graphs.

    I'm just pointing out that with a month to go the tory lead seems to be in single figures.

    Labour will take that quite happily right now.

    Forgive me for saying so, but I do get the impression that tories are starting to get a bit jittery. I'm seeing it 'out there' and I'm seeing it on this site.
    It does not appear to be in single figures.

    You may want to blindside yourself to it but as Sunhil says the average is 10.75

    Do not fall into fake news
    There's no such thing as average polling

    The last two polls have the tory lead at +7 and +8

    Bleat away my tory sheep, but it's the facts
    What's so special about those two polls? One is even a week old!
    The PB Tories do seem a little skittish. You are miles ahead, relax!
  • Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    I had missed this - it's now on record. Thanks
    There are some very good documentaries to watch on the Beeb at the moment plus Dr Strangelove - one of the top 5 funniest films ever made.
    A brilliant film, but even Kubrick couldn't satirise today's reality:

    https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status/1193923239963222016?s=19
    Is that for real? Fake news?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    I had missed this - it's now on record. Thanks
    There are some very good documentaries to watch on the Beeb at the moment plus Dr Strangelove - one of the top 5 funniest films ever made.
    It will probably be banned soon, because it perpetuates the "disabled guy as evil genius" trope.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,489
    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Sorry that is wrong. The last 5 polls on wiki frommthis weekend give 12-13-12-10-8.

    You are in danger of becoming a bit over excited
    The last two are +7 and +8

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193986028727668737?s=20

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193936113242648577?s=20
    There does appear to have been a slight tightening, but I’m assuming it’s just noise at this stage.
    The tightening is real, will it continue is another question entirely.
    There is no way of knowing whether it’s real, as we have discussed previously!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Comparing two graphs from completely different elections with completely different circumstances and pinning your electoral strategy on it is wishful thinking.
    I haven't compared anything, thanks. Haven't looked at any graphs.

    I'm just pointing out that with a month to go the tory lead seems to be in single figures.

    Labour will take that quite happily right now.

    Forgive me for saying so, but I do get the impression that tories are starting to get a bit jittery. I'm seeing it 'out there' and I'm seeing it on this site.
    It does not appear to be in single figures.

    You may want to blindside yourself to it but as Sunhil says the average is 10.75

    Do not fall into fake news
    There's no such thing as average polling

    The last two polls have the tory lead at +7 and +8

    Bleat away my tory sheep, but it's the facts
    What's so special about those two polls? One is even a week old!
    The PB Tories do seem a little skittish. You are miles ahead, relax!
    Are you new here? We have two modes, snug complacency and headless chicken panic.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:



    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today has brought 2 more depressing reasons for hoping the Tories don’t succeed:-

    1. Farage giving them a free run in some seats.
    2. The Tories proposal to renege on what has been agreed with the Irish government about prosecuting soldiers for crimes committed during the Troubles. Bad law, bad policy, morally repulsive and shows Ireland and others that the word of the British government cannot be relied upon.

    Yuck, yuck.

    Meanwhile Labour’s vote share creeps up.

    More yuck.

    If only they could both lose.

    I’m not sure the Tories are in charge of Farage’s decision.
    I am more cynical than you. Cui bono? The consensus seems to be the Tories. And I’m supposed to believe the Tories had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Hmm....

    Jonathon was

    Not presenting it as some killer fact merely my opinion that the Conservative party as was has died and been replaced by Brexit/UKIP. I find that depressing because there was something to admire about the genuine Conservative party. Whereas what has replaced it is mean-minded, incoherent and seems to value nothing about what is best about Britain.
    The reports of the death of the Conservative Party have been greatly exaggerated.

    The new intake will be very much One Nation Conservatives.
    The PM is very much a One Nation Conservative.

    People should stop confusing One Nation with Remainer. They are not synonyms.
    Yes, very much so. Similarly, there is often a lazy belief that dry as dust economically = socially conservative = Eurosceptic. And sometimes it does. But often it doesn't. Calling anyone Eurosceptic right-wing is confusing and unhelpful. There are members of all parties who fall into one of these categories.
    Yes put me in that category. Bone dry economically, a real hater of debt, fairly socially conservative, and Europhile. There is no party where I neatly fit.
    But every financial asset is someone else's debt. It's how the system works.
    No it doesn't!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    There is also a small, but real, chance that the Conservative Party sneeks up, picking up all the Leave vote plus a small number of Remainers.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:



    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today has brought 2 more depressing reasons for hoping the Tories don’t succeed:-

    1. Farage giving them a free run in some seats.
    2. The Tories proposal to renege on what has been agreed with the Irish government about prosecuting soldiers for crimes committed during the Troubles. Bad law, bad policy, morally repulsive and shows Ireland and others that the word of the British government cannot be relied upon.

    Yuck, yuck.

    Meanwhile Labour’s vote share creeps up.

    More yuck.

    If only they could both lose.

    I’m not sure the Tories are in charge of Farage’s decision.
    I am more cynical than you. Cui bono? The consensus seems to be the Tories. And I’m supposed to believe the Tories had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Hmm....

    Jonathon was

    Not presenting it as some killer fact merely my opinion that the Conservative party as was has died and been replaced by Brexit/UKIP. I find that depressing because there was something to admire about the genuine Conservative party. Whereas what has replaced it is mean-minded, incoherent and seems to value nothing about what is best about Britain.
    The reports of the death of the Conservative Party have been greatly exaggerated.

    The new intake will be very much One Nation Conservatives.
    The PM is very much a One Nation Conservative.

    People should stop confusing One Nation with Remainer. They are not synonyms.
    Yes, very much so. Similarly, there is often a lazy belief that dry as dust economically = socially conservative = Eurosceptic. And sometimes it does. But often it doesn't. Calling anyone Eurosceptic right-wing is confusing and unhelpful. There are members of all parties who fall into one of these categories.
    Yes put me in that category. Bone dry economically, a real hater of debt, fairly socially conservative, and Europhile. There is no party where I neatly fit.
    But every financial asset is someone else's debt. It's how the system works.
    Up to an extent with banking, but not in equities.

    Short selling?
  • woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    Are we going to be getting another Yougov seat by seat poll at this election. Was scarcely accurate last time.
  • GMFGMF Posts: 13
    edited November 2019
    Hartlepool Betfair

    Lab Evens
    Brexit 2/1
    Cons 9/4

    Any other 3 way marginals prices ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Sorry that is wrong. The last 5 polls on wiki frommthis weekend give 12-13-12-10-8.

    You are in danger of becoming a bit over excited
    The last two are +7 and +8

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193986028727668737?s=20

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193936113242648577?s=20
    There does appear to have been a slight tightening, but I’m assuming it’s just noise at this stage.
    The tightening is real, will it continue is another question entirely.
    There is no way of knowing whether it’s real, as we have discussed previously!
    No way of knowing? Other than looking at the polls....
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    +1 I have always voted Tory at GE's since I got the vote. I am not supporting the party as it is now. But I will vote and it is LD or Labour...
    So you're repulsed by the current Tory party but not Labour? I find that frankly astonishing. Unless you're fibbing, of course.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    May I ask who you're going with this time? Please don't tell me Corbyn?
    Probably LD. I wasn't really enamoured with the May government or campaign (though I thought the Dementia Tax proposal was admirably upfront for a manifesto), and living in a safe Tory seat could vote for anyone and not risk responsibility for any shit show that follows, but Corbyn I really do not like, and I felt I should put my vote where my mouth was. Now I have to accept my contribution to the last 2 years of nonsense.

    I'm not exactly on board with the LD policy of revoke either, and as a former leaver and coalition supporter they likely hold me in contempt, but they could be worse.
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    You’ve got the taint.
    True, but unrelated :)
  • Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    On the other hand, the attack on convoy JW51B off Bear Island was a complete fiasco for the Kriegsmarine, leading to Hitler temporarily mothballing all the larger surface combatants.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Barents_Sea

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited November 2019
    woody662 said:

    Are we going to be getting another Yougov seat by seat poll at this election. Was scarcely accurate last time.

    Its MRP polling was
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,156
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Comparing two graphs from completely different elections with completely different circumstances and pinning your electoral strategy on it is wishful thinking.
    I haven't compared anything, thanks. Haven't looked at any graphs.

    I'm just pointing out that with a month to go the tory lead seems to be in single figures.

    Labour will take that quite happily right now.

    Forgive me for saying so, but I do get the impression that tories are starting to get a bit jittery. I'm seeing it 'out there' and I'm seeing it on this site.
    It does not appear to be in single figures.

    You may want to blindside yourself to it but as Sunhil says the average is 10.75

    Do not fall into fake news
    There's no such thing as average polling

    The last two polls have the tory lead at +7 and +8

    Bleat away my tory sheep, but it's the facts
    What's so special about those two polls? One is even a week old!
    The PB Tories do seem a little skittish. You are miles ahead, relax!
    Are you new here? We have two modes, snug complacency and headless chicken panic.
    Don't forget aggressive bluster!
  • GMFGMF Posts: 13
    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    There is also a small, but real, chance that the Conservative Party sneeks up, picking up all the Leave vote plus a small number of Remainers.
    Nah - they have gone for a paper candidate from Essex.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    There is also a small, but real, chance that the Conservative Party sneeks up, picking up all the Leave vote plus a small number of Remainers.
    I have met the Tories candidate in Cambridge who is chairman of Harlow Tories
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Comparing two graphs from completely different elections with completely different circumstances and pinning your electoral strategy on it is wishful thinking.
    I haven't compared anything, thanks. Haven't looked at any graphs.

    I'm just pointing out that with a month to go the tory lead seems to be in single figures.

    Labour will take that quite happily right now.

    Forgive me for saying so, but I do get the impression that tories are starting to get a bit jittery. I'm seeing it 'out there' and I'm seeing it on this site.
    It does not appear to be in single figures.

    You may want to blindside yourself to it but as Sunhil says the average is 10.75

    Do not fall into fake news
    There's no such thing as average polling

    The last two polls have the tory lead at +7 and +8

    Bleat away my tory sheep, but it's the facts
    What's so special about those two polls? One is even a week old!
    The PB Tories do seem a little skittish. You are miles ahead, relax!
    Are you new here? We have two modes, snug complacency and headless chicken panic.
    Con-complacency stocks levels are still very low after 2017.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    olm said:

    And so it goes on .......

    Labour Candidate Claimed Mural Isn't Anti-Semitic https://t.co/E43W05NOtT

    It isn't clearly anti-semitic.
    If you think it is, can you explain?
    The mural with bushy-eyed, hooked nosed money counters breaking the backs of the world's poor? The one with the pyramid eye symbolizing powerful conspiracies behind them? The one drawn by a man who said “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are,”?

    That's not anti-Semitic?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:



    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today has brought 2 more depressing reasons for hoping the Tories don’t succeed:-

    1. Farage giving them a free run in some seats.
    2. The Tories proposal to renege on what has been agreed with the Irish government about prosecuting soldiers for crimes committed during the Troubles. Bad law, bad policy, morally repulsive and shows Ireland and others that the word of the British government cannot be relied upon.

    Yuck, yuck.

    Meanwhile Labour’s vote share creeps up.

    More yuck.

    If only they could both lose.

    I’m not sure the Tories are in charge of Farage’s decision.
    I am more cynical than you. Cui bono? The consensus seems to be the Tories. And I’m supposed to believe the Tories had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Hmm....

    Jonathon was

    Not presenting it as some killer fact merely my opinion that the Conservative party as was has died and been replaced by Brexit/UKIP. I find that depressing because there was something to admire about the genuine Conservative party. Whereas what has replaced it is mean-minded, incoherent and seems to value nothing about what is best about Britain.
    The reports of the death of the Conservative Party have been greatly exaggerated.

    The new intake will be very much One Nation Conservatives.
    The PM is very much a One Nation Conservative.

    People should stop confusing One Nation with Remainer. They are not synonyms.
    Yes, very much so. Similarly, there is often a lazy belief that dry as dust economically = socially conservative = Eurosceptic. And sometimes it does. But often it doesn't. Calling anyone Eurosceptic right-wing is confusing and unhelpful. There are members of all parties who fall into one of these categories.
    Yes put me in that category. Bone dry economically, a real hater of debt, fairly socially conservative, and Europhile. There is no party where I neatly fit.
    But every financial asset is someone else's debt. It's how the system works.
    Up to an extent with banking, but not in equities.

    But surely not even in investment banking. The whole point of investment is that, over the long term and in the whole, it generates more value than the obligation created.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    You would do, but are you?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,489
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Sorry that is wrong. The last 5 polls on wiki frommthis weekend give 12-13-12-10-8.

    You are in danger of becoming a bit over excited
    The last two are +7 and +8

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193986028727668737?s=20

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193936113242648577?s=20
    There does appear to have been a slight tightening, but I’m assuming it’s just noise at this stage.
    The tightening is real, will it continue is another question entirely.
    There is no way of knowing whether it’s real, as we have discussed previously!
    No way of knowing? Other than looking at the polls....
    It is so subtle it could just be statistical noise
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, on BBC4 at 10:30 there is the documentary about PQ17 - The Arctic Convoy. An absolute must see.

    I had missed this - it's now on record. Thanks
    There are some very good documentaries to watch on the Beeb at the moment plus Dr Strangelove - one of the top 5 funniest films ever made.
    I've always loved Dr. S. I'm downloading it. Thanks again. My wife thinks I'm mad.
    "Gentlemen, you can't discuss Brexit in here - this is PB.com!"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    There is also a small, but real, chance that the Conservative Party sneeks up, picking up all the Leave vote plus a small number of Remainers.
    I have met the Tories candidate in Cambridge who is chairman of Harlow Tories
    Sounds like a nice local lad/lass.
  • GMFGMF Posts: 13
    Farage’s announcement today is a big boost for the Cons in Scotland - nowhere Elise for the unionist vote to go now in blue seats.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Jason said:

    I too remain concerned that at some point there will be a polling panic as Labour starts to rise in the polls. Probably for no particular reason....

    However, the level of hostility towards Corbyn and his band of mad-hatter, unsavoury Marxists is now profound, widespread and deeply felt across much of the country, even amongst Labour voters. I really struggle to see what is going to change that in 4 weeks. People have had three YEARS to reach their conclusions. Corbyn is no longer a blank canvass. I cant see what is going to change.

    But happy to hear suggestions....



    Labour are entering a phase where wishful thinking is starting to replace reality.

    Hardly. The tory lead seems now to be in single figures. They will take that at this stage.
    Sorry that is wrong. The last 5 polls on wiki frommthis weekend give 12-13-12-10-8.

    You are in danger of becoming a bit over excited
    The last two are +7 and +8

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193986028727668737?s=20

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193936113242648577?s=20
    There does appear to have been a slight tightening, but I’m assuming it’s just noise at this stage.
    The tightening is real, will it continue is another question entirely.
    There is no way of knowing whether it’s real, as we have discussed previously!
    No way of knowing? Other than looking at the polls....
    It is so subtle it could just be statistical noise
    That's fair - it's probably not statistically significant, but the direction looks like it is moving towards a smaller lead.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    edited November 2019

    Fair enough Kle4. I'm in a safe Tory seat like you, so it wouldn't really matter any way, but if I really had to with an alternative, I would go LD - even though I'm a leaver and I detest the LDs revoke policy. BUT - Corbyn. Dear God, the damage he would do to this country, domestically and internationally, does not bear thinking about. Even if you could forget all of his past associations.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Jason said:

    kle4 said:

    Some selective quoting there but the principle is the same - Labour added a lot of votes last time around after this point in the campaign
    Sure did. I'll bet the Tories won't be comfortable no matter the lead until around 4am on Friday 13th as a result.
    nico67 said:

    Bozo decided a Cobra meeting would look good optics .

    More faux empathy and concern designed to dupe people into thinking he gives two hoots .

    Well probably, although I am curious what the difference would be if it was sincere empathy and concern - how would we know?
    Kle4 I meant to ask you before - just who did you vote for in 2017?
    Tory, for the first time. Won't be considering doing that again for a good long while.
    +1 I have always voted Tory at GE's since I got the vote. I am not supporting the party as it is now. But I will vote and it is LD or Labour...
    So you're repulsed by the current Tory party but not Labour? I find that frankly astonishing. Unless you're fibbing, of course.
    If I vote Labour, I am voting for the Incumbent Labour MP, who is a Remainer and seeking re-election. I am not voting for Corbyn in my mind! I don't believe all the stuff in the Tory/Brexit supporting media. I have been around politics a long-time and the Tories no longer share the same interests that I do. Corbyn maybe bad for you but he might be beneficial to my interests or neutral. The UK has had left-wing Governments in the past and it has to be remembered that Churchill ran in 1950 and 1951 of accepting many of the policies of the incumbent Labour Government that in political terms is described as a radical Government.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    Dadge said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    You would do, but are you?
    I wouldn't want to break the law by betting on the election from California.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Dadge said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    You would do, but are you?
    I wouldn't want to break the law by betting on the election from California.
    Land of the free?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    On the subject of the US, there's a new New Hampshire poll out that has a couple of interesting points:

    1. Buttigieg is now in the top three, and is only a point behind Warren.
    2. Gabbard is breaking away from the also rans, getting up to 6% in the polls, which means she'll likely make the December debate, and increasing her profile meaningfully.
    Biden     20%
    Warren 16%
    Buttigieg 15%
    Sanders 14%
    Gabbard 6%
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,234
    GMF said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    There is also a small, but real, chance that the Conservative Party sneeks up, picking up all the Leave vote plus a small number of Remainers.
    Nah - they have gone for a paper candidate from Essex.
    There were plenty of paper candidates in Scotland in 2015 who ended up as MPs.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,488
    edited November 2019
    egg said:

    It’s illegal to sell a peerage? But not illegal to trade one for electoral pacts?
    I think you'll find when the preferment comes ahead of the desired action it's illegal. When the desired action happens and the preferment comes months or even years down the line, it's called patronage, and it's perfectly legal. See also: every EU appointment ever made.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,614
    GMF said:

    Farage’s announcement today is a big boost for the Cons in Scotland - nowhere Elise for the unionist vote to go now in blue seats.

    Spot on. The projected losing margin for many of the seats currently held by the SCons was less than the projected Brexit Party vote.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Jason said:


    Fair enough Kle4. I'm in a safe Tory seat like you, so it wouldn't really matter any way, but if I really had to with an alternative, I would go LD - even though I'm a leaver and I detest the LDs revoke policy. BUT - Corbyn. Dear God, the damage he would do to this country, domestically and internationally, does not bear thinking about. Even if you could forget all of his past associations.

    You don't think Brexit has damaged the UK internationally or domestically then? The UKs international reputation is at rock bottom whilst Northern Ireland could erupt into civil war again and Scotland may go it own way. Meanwhile the economy will be adversely affected by any sort of Brexit. You see we all see different things...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Jason said:


    Fair enough Kle4. I'm in a safe Tory seat like you, so it wouldn't really matter any way, but if I really had to with an alternative, I would go LD - even though I'm a leaver and I detest the LDs revoke policy. BUT - Corbyn. Dear God, the damage he would do to this country, domestically and internationally, does not bear thinking about. Even if you could forget all of his past associations.

    You don't think Brexit has damaged the UK internationally or domestically then? The UKs international reputation is at rock bottom whilst Northern Ireland could erupt into civil war again and Scotland may go it own way. Meanwhile the economy will be adversely affected by any sort of Brexit. You see we all see different things...
    Rock bottom? I assume this is the level occupied by states like North Korea?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    rcs1000 said:

    Dadge said:

    rcs1000 said:

    GMF said:

    Cambridge (Betfair)

    LD 4/9
    Labour 13/8

    Labour nearing value.

    I would bet on Labour at anything better than evens.

    You would do, but are you?
    I wouldn't want to break the law by betting on the election from California.
    Land of the free?
    Home of the weed ;)
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Thread's dead baby
  • Bah, they haven't even opened CrossRail yet!
  • MTimT said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Cyclefree said:



    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today has brought 2 more depressing reasons for hoping the Tories don’t succeed:-

    1. Farage giving them a free run in some seats.
    2. The Tories proposal to renege on what has been agreed with the Irish government about prosecuting soldiers for crimes committed during the Troubles. Bad law, bad policy, morally repulsive and shows Ireland and others that the word of the British government cannot be relied upon.

    Yuck, yuck.

    Meanwhile Labour’s vote share creeps up.

    More yuck.

    If only they could both lose.

    I’m not sure the Tories are in charge of Farage’s decision.
    I am more cynical than you. Cui bono? The consensus seems to be the Tories. And I’m supposed to believe the Tories had absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Hmm....

    Jonathon was

    Not presenting it as some killer fact merely my opinion that the Conservative party as was has died and been replaced by Brexit/UKIP. I find that depressing because there was something to admire about the genuine Conservative party. Whereas what has replaced it is mean-minded, incoherent and seems to value nothing about what is best about Britain.
    The reports of the death of the Conservative Party have been greatly exaggerated.

    The new intake will be very much One Nation Conservatives.
    The PM is very much a One Nation Conservative.

    People should stop confusing One Nation with Remainer. They are not synonyms.
    Yes, very much so. Similarly, there is often a lazy belief that dry as dust economically = socially conservative = Eurosceptic. And sometimes it does. But often it doesn't. Calling anyone Eurosceptic right-wing is confusing and unhelpful. There are members of all parties who fall into one of these categories.
    Yes put me in that category. Bone dry economically, a real hater of debt, fairly socially conservative, and Europhile. There is no party where I neatly fit.
    But every financial asset is someone else's debt. It's how the system works.
    Up to an extent with banking, but not in equities.

    But surely not even in investment banking. The whole point of investment is that, over the long term and in the whole, it generates more value than the obligation created.
    In which case we can all become investment bankers and no-one would ever need to work. Where do I sign?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,354
    edited November 2019
    Gabs2 said:

    olm said:

    And so it goes on .......

    Labour Candidate Claimed Mural Isn't Anti-Semitic https://t.co/E43W05NOtT

    It isn't clearly anti-semitic.
    If you think it is, can you explain?
    The mural with bushy-eyed, hooked nosed money counters breaking the backs of the world's poor? The one with the pyramid eye symbolizing powerful conspiracies behind them? The one drawn by a man who said “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are,”?

    That's not anti-Semitic?
    Yes, but it's more a symptom of a laziness than racism - reaching for a well-worn stereotype rather than attempting any artistic creativity.

    It's crap. The anti-semitism is a by-product.

    You're probably familiar with TS Eliot's infamous couplet:

    'The rats are underneath the piles
    The Jew is underneath the lot.'

    It's racist alright, but is symptomatic of a lazy reaching for stereotypes as a substitute for thought, precision and creativity.

    Much the same with your crap cartoonist.

  • New Thread

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    RobD said:

    Jason said:


    Fair enough Kle4. I'm in a safe Tory seat like you, so it wouldn't really matter any way, but if I really had to with an alternative, I would go LD - even though I'm a leaver and I detest the LDs revoke policy. BUT - Corbyn. Dear God, the damage he would do to this country, domestically and internationally, does not bear thinking about. Even if you could forget all of his past associations.

    You don't think Brexit has damaged the UK internationally or domestically then? The UKs international reputation is at rock bottom whilst Northern Ireland could erupt into civil war again and Scotland may go it own way. Meanwhile the economy will be adversely affected by any sort of Brexit. You see we all see different things...
    Rock bottom? I assume this is the level occupied by states like North Korea?
    Relative to how the UK is normally perceived. Relativity is very important the UK has traditionally been seen as a bulwark of the international system. I don't think that is the case anymore as we seem to be embarking on isolationism and internal fracture.
  • It will certainly boost the bank balances of the people involved.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    Jason said:


    Fair enough Kle4. I'm in a safe Tory seat like you, so it wouldn't really matter any way, but if I really had to with an alternative, I would go LD - even though I'm a leaver and I detest the LDs revoke policy. BUT - Corbyn. Dear God, the damage he would do to this country, domestically and internationally, does not bear thinking about. Even if you could forget all of his past associations.

    You don't think Brexit has damaged the UK internationally or domestically then? The UKs international reputation is at rock bottom whilst Northern Ireland could erupt into civil war again and Scotland may go it own way. Meanwhile the economy will be adversely affected by any sort of Brexit. You see we all see different things...
    Well I don't know if Brexit has damaged the UK yet because it's not even been enacted. Maybe if it had been sooner we wouldn't be in this mess. Losers consent and all that. But Corbyn is a nasty old fool who has pretty much wrung his hands for every terrorist organisation in the world who has had an interest in undermining the West. He still does. Now I'm not silly enough to think Boris is perfect, he isn't, far from it. But still. Corbyn as PM isn't just about economics (actually neither is Brexit), it's a life time of anti British and anti Western sentiment. A lifetime of cheer leading extremist Socialist republics in the Third World and using them as a template to dismantle the free market economy which sustains rich countries like ours. He's a bit shit crazy, vindictive, anti Semitic old bastard with the brain of a 15 year old Communist.
  • Jason said:


    Fair enough Kle4. I'm in a safe Tory seat like you, so it wouldn't really matter any way, but if I really had to with an alternative, I would go LD - even though I'm a leaver and I detest the LDs revoke policy. BUT - Corbyn. Dear God, the damage he would do to this country, domestically and internationally, does not bear thinking about. Even if you could forget all of his past associations.

    You don't think Brexit has damaged the UK internationally or domestically then? The UKs international reputation is at rock bottom whilst Northern Ireland could erupt into civil war again and Scotland may go it own way. Meanwhile the economy will be adversely affected by any sort of Brexit. You see we all see different things...
    No, I don't.
  • Grew up in Ashfield but don't live there any more. Don't think former Lib Dem Zadrozny has the numbers to take the seat but where he draws his support is key. Without him Tories would take seat. Next door in Amber Valley is a 10K+ Tory majority in what was once a bellwether. Need to speak to a few friends before I talk about Broxtowe
This discussion has been closed.