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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Farage plays his Trump card but Johnson surely shouldn’t be te

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Farage plays his Trump card but Johnson surely shouldn’t be tempted

Perhaps the most bizarre event so far in this election campaign was Nigel Farage talking to Donald Trump on his LBC radio programme yesterday.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    How about putting them in a bear pit somewhere and forgetting about 'em.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    Toms said:

    How about putting them in a bear pit somewhere and forgetting about 'em.

    Why? What have bears ever done to you?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2019
    edit
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,331
    all this reminds me of the Blair-Bush image the LibDems used to hit Labour in GE2005...I dont think that it will change very much except fire up the usual party faithful - JC probably welcomed it. Nigel probably is under pressure a bit as he has 600 plus candidates champing at the bit and doesnt really want an election.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    The NHS is one of the UK's three main religions. Alongside football and shopping.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2019
    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html
  • Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Much ado about nothing.

    No government ever would or could afford to end NICE making sure drugs are value for money and as cheap as possible.
  • AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    That was then this is now. The LDs have dramatically improved their position since GE2017 while LAB has collapsed.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    The NHS is the ONLY thing that Labour have that might cut thro to voters. The trouble is that its used every time as a stick to beat the Govt with.. yawn...
  • I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Labour have been predicting the slaughter of the NHS at Tory hands in every GE campaign since Thatcher. Curiously, however, it remains conspicuously alive...

    It's no wonder that they continue to bang on about it endlessly like a broken record, mind you. The Labour core vote is so gullible that they can repeat the same nonsense every single time and be guaranteed that it will work, despite all evidence to the contrary.

    Besides, the overriding issue in this election isn't whether or not the NHS, or any other arm of the state, is at risk from the Evil Tories. It's that Corbynite Labour would do a Venezuela job on the entire British economy - and then it wouldn't matter a damn how much money they chose to fling at the NHS, or any other priority you care to name. The pound would be virtually worthless, so it wouldn't actually serve to pay for any of these services. The electorate could then wave goodbye to public health care, along with public transport, welfare benefits and reliable supplies of electricity, clean water, petrol, affordable food and bog roll, along with just about everything else.

    They'll try to blame it all on Trump and the Jews, of course, but that will hardly help the rest of us as we plan how to snare the neighbour's cat, and what we're going to use to cook it.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 359

    all this reminds me of the Blair-Bush image the LibDems used to hit Labour in GE2005. .I dont think that it will change very much except fire up the usual party faithful

    In GE 2005. the LDs went from 50 seats to 60. But Labour still ruled Scotland, and the Tories didn't have UKIP/Brexit snapping at their heels. We had a 2.001 party system

    This year, 60 LD seats would destroy Johnson. It'd destroy any prospect of a no-deal Brexit, guarantee a new referendum, consign the lying sexpest to a future of after dinner speeches no-one pays to listen to and almost certainly ensures any kind of Brexit dies forever.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    The over use of “secret meeting” to cast suspicion really irritates me

    Civil servants meet pharma industry to discuss drug pricing. No shit. That sort of meeting happens in every industry with every government every day

    There is a difference between “private” and “secret”.

    U.K. drug pricing is a good system. Drug prices are among the lowest in the world. NICE has pioneered value based pricing which is widely copied. Some of the work on outcomes based pricing is cutting edge. The PPRS gives innovators flexibility on pricing

    I’m sure lobbists are going to push for higher pricing. That’s their job. Doesn’t mean that it is going to happen. In any event it’s a decision for the government. If it makes sense (eg increasing the cost of drugs to the NHS by £1bn per year creates £10bn pa of value to the economy) then fine. If the deal as a whole doesn’t make sense then they won’t approve it
    Says man who works in pharma...

    Trump has always been clear, he wants other countries to pay more for US pharmaceuticals. That means us as currently the NHS negotiates very low prices.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited November 2019

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    That was then this is now. The LDs have dramatically improved their position since GE2017 while LAB has collapsed.
    So? If Labour started forming these sorts of alliances with other parties, it would be tantamount to admitting that it is incapable of winning a Parliamentary majority under any circumstances, and might as well start planning for a Coalition now.

    Corbyn is hardly going to do this when, after the Clegg experience, Swinson won't make that kind of arrangement with either of the large parties that she seeks to vanquish (and, even if she did, the price would be certain to include Labour offering up a more palatable centre-left figure as Prime Minister in any event.)

    I'm as sure as I can be that Labour will field a candidate in every seat in Great Britain, except that occupied by the new Speaker should the election for the post go ahead. Why wouldn't they?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    The whole point of Brexit is to move away from European models, and towards systems in use in the USA.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    edited November 2019

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands? Only a complete moron would think the US has a good healthcare system,* so it is irrelevant to any debate about the future.

    It does however mean it is impossible to have an adult debate about healthcare funding in this country, as that is immediately brought up. This is also surprising because the more you look into it the more you realise, despite being founded solely for ideological reasons to deal with issues very much of the 1940s, the NHS is remarkably efficient and effective compared to most other mass healthcare systems, and is not expensive for what it provides either. It should hold its own in any proper, reasoned debate - but we can’t have one.

    *I know Dan Hannan does think this. I do not consider that invalidates my point!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    The NHS was a major reason people voted Brexit, and is central to the Tory party campaign.

    I am sure that you are right though, once they have their majority, the Tories will shaft the NHS and those CDE voters dependent on it.

  • Labour have been predicting the slaughter of the NHS at Tory hands in every GE campaign since Thatcher. Curiously, however, it remains conspicuously alive...

    Exceedingly crap though, isn't it?

    This is where the British centre-left position is so bananas. They think the Tories are trying to wreck everybody's healthcare. But in that case, given that the Tories are in charge of the British government at least half the time, why on earth would you want the healthcare system run by the British government?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Labour have been predicting the slaughter of the NHS at Tory hands in every GE campaign since Thatcher. Curiously, however, it remains conspicuously alive...

    It's no wonder that they continue to bang on about it endlessly like a broken record, mind you. The Labour core vote is so gullible that they can repeat the same nonsense every single time and be guaranteed that it will work, despite all evidence to the contrary.

    Besides, the overriding issue in this election isn't whether or not the NHS, or any other arm of the state, is at risk from the Evil Tories. It's that Corbynite Labour would do a Venezuela job on the entire British economy - and then it wouldn't matter a damn how much money they chose to fling at the NHS, or any other priority you care to name. The pound would be virtually worthless, so it wouldn't actually serve to pay for any of these services. The electorate could then wave goodbye to public health care, along with public transport, welfare benefits and reliable supplies of electricity, clean water, petrol, affordable food and bog roll, along with just about everything else.

    They'll try to blame it all on Trump and the Jews, of course, but that will hardly help the rest of us as we plan how to snare the neighbour's cat, and what we're going to use to cook it.
    All of which is true - but doesn’t mean that the Desptaches programme wouldn’t be effective if correctly targeted. The key for Labour is not to persuade Tory voters they’re wrong, but to persuade those who, like me, are considering voting Liberal Democrat that a Johnson majority is a very risky course.

    And it is. I know that. I’ll just take a risk of Johnson’s malificience against the certainty that Corbyn would be a disaster in every imaginable way.
  • Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    The NHS was a major reason people voted Brexit, and is central to the Tory party campaign.

    I am sure that you are right though, once they have their majority, the Tories will shaft the NHS and those CDE voters dependent on it.
    Why? If they are convinced it’s value for money they’re more likely to keep it.

    Indeed, the more serious risk to the NHS is arguably Labour - in hock to the major NHS unions and caring far more about them than about patients - getting in and being forced to agree to major pay rises coupled with reduced working hours.

    That’s not a comment on Ashworth, btw. He’s quite good. It’s Just a recognition that he has next to no influence in Labour.
  • Scott_P said:
    What a bunch of scumbags. Can you imagine the level of corruption Boris is going to get to if he gets a majority?
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Rook, quite. The sky'll fall in this time, for sure.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Is Parliament not sitting today then? Because surely it can’t sit without a Speaker?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Scott_P said:
    What a bunch of scumbags. Can you imagine the level of corruption Boris is going to get to if he gets a majority?
    I don’t need to imagine it. I can remember Blair quite clearly.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,331

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    That was then this is now. The LDs have dramatically improved their position since GE2017 while LAB has collapsed.
    So? If Labour started forming these sorts of alliances with other parties, it would be tantamount to admitting that it is incapable of winning a Parliamentary majority under any circumstances, and might as well start planning for a Coalition now.

    Corbyn is hardly going to do this when, after the Clegg experience, Swinson won't make that kind of arrangement with either of the large parties that she seeks to vanquish (and, even if she did, the price would be certain to include Labour offering up a more palatable centre-left figure as Prime Minister in any event.)

    I'm as sure as I can be that Labour will field a candidate in every seat in Great Britain, except that occupied by the new Speaker should the election for the post go ahead. Why wouldn't they?
    JRM is a useful bogeyman for Labour, that picture of him lounging in HoC will be his legacy to British politics. The LDs are wasting time, money and effort if they are trying to unseat him from their starting, far more juicy targets sit just a few miles in either direction (Wells, Cheltenham etc)...I think a bit of expectation management is needed.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    That is because you hate sick children and want them to die.

    This is why we should never have referendums about anything. Restore the death penalty? Let's take the n million a week we spend on lifers and give it to the NHS. English independence? Let's take the Barnett formula money... etc. Stupid, mawkish, fallacious and universally effective.
  • I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    The NHS is one of the UK's three main religions. Alongside football and shopping.
    That just goes to show how outside the UK mainstream I am.

    I hate football and shopping, and am reflective about, rather than worshipful of, the NHS.

    I do love pubs, watching rugby and cricket, labradors, green fields, steam railways, and village churches though. And I’m a thrice a year CoE’er too.

    So perhaps that just makes me a more rural / traditional kind.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.
    The U.K. and USA are both massive outliers in healthcare provision for developed countries. They’re also the only two places where healthcare is a political issue.

    Almost everywhere else runs with some combination of private and public funding and provision, and isn't a political issue. Pretty much anyone who’s ever lived abroad knows this.
  • I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.

    Bang on.
  • ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands? Only a complete moron would think the US has a good healthcare system,* so it is irrelevant to any debate about the future.

    It does however mean it is impossible to have an adult debate about healthcare funding in this country, as that is immediately brought up. This is also surprising because the more you look into it the more you realise, despite being founded solely for ideological reasons to deal with issues very much of the 1940s, the NHS is remarkably efficient and effective compared to most other mass healthcare systems, and is not expensive for what it provides either. It should hold its own in any proper, reasoned debate - but we can’t have one.

    *I know Dan Hannan does think this. I do not consider that invalidates my point!
    The NHS is good for free basic care but it isn’t fit for purpose for long term chronic care as we age and live much longer.

    At some point it’s going to need to be supplemented in the same way state pensions are by private ones.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278
    Foxy said:



    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    The over use of “secret meeting” to cast suspicion really irritates me

    Civil servants meet pharma industry to discuss drug pricing. No shit. That sort of meeting happens in every industry with every government every day

    There is a difference between “private” and “secret”.

    U.K. drug pricing is a good system. Drug prices are among the lowest in the world. NICE has pioneered value based pricing which is widely copied. Some of the work on outcomes based pricing is cutting edge. The PPRS gives innovators flexibility on pricing

    I’m sure lobbists are going to push for higher pricing. That’s their job. Doesn’t mean that it is going to happen. In any event it’s a decision for the government. If it makes sense (eg increasing the cost of drugs to the NHS by £1bn per year creates £10bn pa of value to the economy) then fine. If the deal as a whole doesn’t make sense then they won’t approve it
    Says man who works in pharma...

    Trump has always been clear, he wants other countries to pay more for US pharmaceuticals. That means us as currently the NHS negotiates very low prices.
    I'm puzzled by this talk, or at least suggestion, of a national negotiated price. In my day there were two sets of pricing arrangements. Pharmacists in the community (retail chemists) were paid according to a scale laid down in the Drug Tariff, and if they could do 'better' than the price laid down, they could keep the difference. The Department of Health was constantly enquiring to see what prices were being charged for what, and carving down the price they paid. Or, when prices world-wide had risen, grudgingly edging up what they paid.
    This of course gave a substantial advantage to the likes of Boots and is a significant part of the reason that 80+% of 'chemist shops" are now in the hands of multiples.
    Hospitals employed pharmaceutical staff to do a similar job, on both a local and a regional basis. So far as I was aware, and it only impinged on me when there were effects on patients, there were no national contracts.
  • ydoethur said:

    Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Is Parliament not sitting today then? Because surely it can’t sit without a Speaker?
    I don’t believe so, no.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,946
    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    The NHS was a major reason people voted Brexit, and is central to the Tory party campaign.

    I am sure that you are right though, once they have their majority, the Tories will shaft the NHS and those CDE voters dependent on it.
    Why? If they are convinced it’s value for money they’re more likely to keep it.

    Indeed, the more serious risk to the NHS is arguably Labour - in hock to the major NHS unions and caring far more about them than about patients - getting in and being forced to agree to major pay rises coupled with reduced working hours.

    That’s not a comment on Ashworth, btw. He’s quite good. It’s Just a recognition that he has next to no influence in Labour.
    One of the major reasons that acute hospitals are in financial trouble (BoZo was in Adenbrookes yesterday which has a record financial deficit), is the privatisation of the bits that run a surplus, such as parts of elective surgery. That leaves the Trust running only the bits that make a loss, such as Emergency depts, geriatric care, obstetrics etc. That is the reason that we have the paradox of increased NHS spending and increased indebtedness of Acute Trusts.

    Though staffing might be the biggest problem for the NHS this winter.

    https://twitter.com/TheDA_UK/status/1189564639350267904?s=19

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    edited November 2019

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands? Only a complete moron would think the US has a good healthcare system,* so it is irrelevant to any debate about the future.

    It does however mean it is impossible to have an adult debate about healthcare funding in this country, as that is immediately brought up. This is also surprising because the more you look into it the more you realise, despite being founded solely for ideological reasons to deal with issues very much of the 1940s, the NHS is remarkably efficient and effective compared to most other mass healthcare systems, and is not expensive for what it provides either. It should hold its own in any proper, reasoned debate - but we can’t have one.

    *I know Dan Hannan does think this. I do not consider that invalidates my point!
    The NHS is good for free basic care but it isn’t fit for purpose for long term chronic care as we age and live much longer.

    At some point it’s going to need to be supplemented in the same way state pensions are by private ones.
    But that is equally true of every other system.

    What only Theresa May seems to have grasped and was unable to get people to discuss is that there is no cheap, easy or simple way of caring for the very elderly and frail.

    (Incidentally I’m not sure I agree about the NHS and chronic illness either. In my experience it can do it very well - or very badly. I think that is a management issue rather than a systemic issue.)
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,135
    ydoethur said:

    Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Is Parliament not sitting today then? Because surely it can’t sit without a Speaker?
    I assume it can or else how will a new Speaker be chosen on Monday?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JohnO said:

    I assume it can or else how will a new Speaker be chosen on Monday?

    The Father of the House is in charge until the new speaker is elected, but that is not a "normal" sitting AFAIK
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands? Only a complete moron would think the US has a good healthcare system,* so it is irrelevant to any debate about the future.

    It does however mean it is impossible to have an adult debate about healthcare funding in this country, as that is immediately brought up. This is also surprising because the more you look into it the more you realise, despite being founded solely for ideological reasons to deal with issues very much of the 1940s, the NHS is remarkably efficient and effective compared to most other mass healthcare systems, and is not expensive for what it provides either. It should hold its own in any proper, reasoned debate - but we can’t have one.

    *I know Dan Hannan does think this. I do not consider that invalidates my point!
    The NHS is good for free basic care but it isn’t fit for purpose for long term chronic care as we age and live much longer.

    At some point it’s going to need to be supplemented in the same way state pensions are by private ones.
    We have differentiated between health...... as in mental or physical malfunction....... and care, as in support for people who, for whatever reason, and particularly as a result of old age and consequent enfeeblement, are unable to look after themselves. generally speaking we do health pretty well; day to day experience fluctuates but overall we don't do too badly. Could always improve, of course.
    What we don't do well is social care.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718
    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Is Parliament not sitting today then? Because surely it can’t sit without a Speaker?
    I assume it can or else how will a new Speaker be chosen on Monday?
    Can't a Deputy Speaker preside?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,897

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.

    Bang on.
    It actually comes out very well on value for money compared to most western health services (I'll try and find the study). But many other countries spend more on health care so some have better health care outcomes (not the US, which spends much more for much less) but some of the European systems. But if we want a better health service it will cost more. Sure, some efficiencies are possible, but we're already pretty much world leading in efficiency.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,196
    edited November 2019
    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Is Parliament not sitting today then? Because surely it can’t sit without a Speaker?
    I assume it can or else how will a new Speaker be chosen on Monday?
    The father of the House presides at the election of a new speaker. So we will see Ken in the chair for the election. I don’t think the father is empowered to preside over any other debates though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    Foxy said:

    JohnO said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bercow is no longer Speaker.

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Is Parliament not sitting today then? Because surely it can’t sit without a Speaker?
    I assume it can or else how will a new Speaker be chosen on Monday?
    Can't a Deputy Speaker preside?
    They can exercise the powers of a speaker in his (sic) absence. But if there isn’t a Speaker, I can’t see how that would apply.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
    Under Grimond, Thorpe and Steel the Liberals knew what they were for and where they were going. I think Ashdown and Kennedy knew what they were doing and where they were going, too. Kennedy was, IMHO, rather squeezed out, and consequently took to the bottle. If ever a man died of a broken heart......
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,490
    Sandpit said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.
    The U.K. and USA are both massive outliers in healthcare provision for developed countries. They’re also the only two places where healthcare is a political issue.

    Almost everywhere else runs with some combination of private and public funding and provision, and isn't a political issue. Pretty much anyone who’s ever lived abroad knows this.
    Totally agree. I retired early so was not elegible for the Spanish NHS and took private cover in Spain which costs me about €100 a month and includes a GP service as well as hospital treartment, no queues etc, etc. It's no big issue in Spain and is really good value. NB Average specialist doctor wages in Spain around €60000pa. Explains a lot about why the British system both puiblic and private is such poor value.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
    Under Grimond, Thorpe and Steel the Liberals knew what they were for and where they were going. I think Ashdown and Kennedy knew what they were doing and where they were going, too. Kennedy was, IMHO, rather squeezed out, and consequently took to the bottle. If ever a man died of a broken heart......
    Thorpe - still dogging the Liberals many years later...
  • Scott_P said:
    Absolutely ruthless, entirely lacking in shame and with a degree of competence that makes the former two terrifying.

    Sadly it's only the last that marks them out from the opposition. I've no doubt the people in charge of Labour would do exactly the same given the chance.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,490
    Lol - apparebtly they turned her down a few weeks ago and she's already saying she doesn't like their Revoke policy.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited November 2019
    Sandpit said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.
    The U.K. and USA are both massive outliers in healthcare provision for developed countries. They’re also the only two places where healthcare is a political issue.

    Almost everywhere else runs with some combination of private and public funding and provision, and isn't a political issue. Pretty much anyone who’s ever lived abroad knows this.
    Most developed coibtires also spend more money than the UK does on healthcare.

    Weirdly it tends to be the same set of people who say thay
    A ) the NHS is horribly inefficient
    B ) we should adopt system from country X

    Where country X is one where the they spend more per head on health care than The UK does.

    There is never the option of just spending as much per head as country X with the current NHS system. That's always wrong for some unspecified reason.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Like, Switzerland healthcare is always a popular choice for the UK to adopt, that would require spending 90% more per head to achieve.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    felix said:

    Lol - apparebtly they turned her down a few weeks ago and she's already saying she doesn't like their Revoke policy.
    But she'll get her pay-off....

    I hope she loses her deposit.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Alistair said:

    Like, Switzerland healthcare is always a popular choice for the UK to adopt, that would require spending 90% more per head to achieve.

    There is always the magic money tree...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    Even the Beeb are criticising Corbyn’s campaign slogans as lies, although they do rather pull their punches in the conclusion:

    General election 2019: Have the Conservatives 'slashed taxes for the richest'?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50249909
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
    Under Grimond, Thorpe and Steel the Liberals knew what they were for and where they were going. I think Ashdown and Kennedy knew what they were doing and where they were going, too. Kennedy was, IMHO, rather squeezed out, and consequently took to the bottle. If ever a man died of a broken heart......
    Thorpe - still dogging the Liberals many years later...
    Charismatic leader though.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    What a bunch of scumbags. Can you imagine the level of corruption Boris is going to get to if he gets a majority?
    I don’t need to imagine it. I can remember Blair quite clearly.
    Blair may have been a scumbag but I don't think he was corrupt. What are you thinking of specifically?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
    Under Grimond, Thorpe and Steel the Liberals knew what they were for and where they were going. I think Ashdown and Kennedy knew what they were doing and where they were going, too. Kennedy was, IMHO, rather squeezed out, and consequently took to the bottle. If ever a man died of a broken heart......
    Thorpe - still dogging the Liberals many years later...
    v good
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
    Under Grimond, Thorpe and Steel the Liberals knew what they were for and where they were going. I think Ashdown and Kennedy knew what they were doing and where they were going, too. Kennedy was, IMHO, rather squeezed out, and consequently took to the bottle. If ever a man died of a broken heart......
    Thorpe - still dogging the Liberals many years later...
    Charismatic leader though.
    One of the prettiest, one of the most distinguished politicians ever to rise to high office in this country...

    ...or not - as you may decide.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    edited November 2019

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    What a bunch of scumbags. Can you imagine the level of corruption Boris is going to get to if he gets a majority?
    I don’t need to imagine it. I can remember Blair quite clearly.
    Blair may have been a scumbag but I don't think he was corrupt. What are you thinking of specifically?
    Where do you want me to start? His leaflets ramping extra spending in every constituency much as these adverts do, or Ecclestone, the Hindujas, cash for peerages and him being the only serving PM ever to be interviewed by the police as part of a criminal investigation?

    Edit - and I haven’t even mentioned Carol Caplin or whatever her name was - the property wheeler dealer and masseuse...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    edited November 2019

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    What a bunch of scumbags. Can you imagine the level of corruption Boris is going to get to if he gets a majority?
    I don’t need to imagine it. I can remember Blair quite clearly.
    Blair may have been a scumbag but I don't think he was corrupt. What are you thinking of specifically?
    Ecclestone's million? Blair reportedly thought that was the end of his career when that came out. Thankfully for him, he was still in his honeymoon period with the press.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Which is of course one reason why nobody is anxious to make that comparison...

    Although weirdly doesn’t the US system cost about three times as much?
  • The NHS debate comes down to money and people who don't want to pay for other people's healthcare. I can see the slogan on the side of the bus now:

    "We spend £5,000 a year of your taxes on other people's healthcare. Why don't you spend it on your own?"
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,900

    felix said:

    Lol - apparebtly they turned her down a few weeks ago and she's already saying she doesn't like their Revoke policy.
    But she'll get her pay-off....

    I hope she loses her deposit.
    She has no connection to Eddisbury constituency, and she should never have been chosen as a candidate for any party.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Well let's get loads more billionaires and tax them then.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    I’m surprised at that comment, Malcolm.

    That implies you thought they once had the plot, and such we know is not the case. :smile:
    Under Grimond, Thorpe and Steel the Liberals knew what they were for and where they were going. I think Ashdown and Kennedy knew what they were doing and where they were going, too. Kennedy was, IMHO, rather squeezed out, and consequently took to the bottle. If ever a man died of a broken heart......
    Thorpe - still dogging the Liberals many years later...
    Charismatic leader though.
    One of the prettiest, one of the most distinguished politicians ever to rise to high office in this country...

    ...or not - as you may decide.
    I think malc's jury is definitely not still out!
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,296
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    The NHS was a major reason people voted Brexit, and is central to the Tory party campaign.

    I am sure that you are right though, once they have their majority, the Tories will shaft the NHS and those CDE voters dependent on it.
    I don’t understand how we would pay more. Wasn’t it announced last year that negotiations had lead to previously unavailable drugs being made available as they now met cost benefit models.

    It doesn’t seem to make sense on a basic level. Can anyone explain why we would do this?
  • ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands? Only a complete moron would think the US has a good healthcare system,* so it is irrelevant to any debate about the future.

    It does however mean it is impossible to have an adult debate about healthcare funding in this country, as that is immediately brought up. This is also surprising because the more you look into it the more you realise, despite being founded solely for ideological reasons to deal with issues very much of the 1940s, the NHS is remarkably efficient and effective compared to most other mass healthcare systems, and is not expensive for what it provides either. It should hold its own in any proper, reasoned debate - but we can’t have one.

    *I know Dan Hannan does think this. I do not consider that invalidates my point!
    The NHS is good for free basic care but it isn’t fit for purpose for long term chronic care as we age and live much longer.

    At some point it’s going to need to be supplemented in the same way state pensions are by private ones.
    We have differentiated between health...... as in mental or physical malfunction....... and care, as in support for people who, for whatever reason, and particularly as a result of old age and consequent enfeeblement, are unable to look after themselves. generally speaking we do health pretty well; day to day experience fluctuates but overall we don't do too badly. Could always improve, of course.
    What we don't do well is social care.
    Yes, that’s well put.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    ydoethur said:

    Even the Beeb are criticising Corbyn’s campaign slogans as lies, although they do rather pull their punches in the conclusion:

    General election 2019: Have the Conservatives 'slashed taxes for the richest'?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50249909

    talk about a leading question...
  • Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Well let's get loads more billionaires and tax them then.....
    Let’s start by not volunteering to hit the country with the equivalent impact of a severe recession and get rid of a Prime Minister who wants to fuck business.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.
    The U.K. and USA are both massive outliers in healthcare provision for developed countries. They’re also the only two places where healthcare is a political issue.

    Almost everywhere else runs with some combination of private and public funding and provision, and isn't a political issue. Pretty much anyone who’s ever lived abroad knows this.
    Most developed coibtires also spend more money than the UK does on healthcare.

    Weirdly it tends to be the same set of people who say thay
    A ) the NHS is horribly inefficient
    B ) we should adopt system from country X

    Where country X is one where the they spend more per head on health care than The UK does.

    There is never the option of just spending as much per head as country X with the current NHS system. That's always wrong for some unspecified reason.
    The idea that an Atlantacist Europhobic Brexiteer run Tory government is going to move in the direction of European models of doing anything is for the birds.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    The NHS was a major reason people voted Brexit, and is central to the Tory party campaign.

    I am sure that you are right though, once they have their majority, the Tories will shaft the NHS and those CDE voters dependent on it.
    I don’t understand how we would pay more. Wasn’t it announced last year that negotiations had lead to previously unavailable drugs being made available as they now met cost benefit models.

    It doesn’t seem to make sense on a basic level. Can anyone explain why we would do this?
    There are three reasons why it might happen:

    1) Because Boris Johnson and Steve Baker are idiots who are unfit to run a whelk stall;

    2) Because - ummm - actually, you can forget the other two reasons.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs apparently want Labour to stand down in Jacob Rees-Mogg's seat in NE Somerset. The problem is why would Labour stand down when the result last time was Con 54%, Lab 35%, LD 8%.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7634195/Lib-Dems-WONT-stand-against-ex-Cabinet-minister-Dominic-Grieve.html

    Lib Dems have lost the plot , they have no clue.
    It’s unusual for you two to be so naive. LibDems made the call to get some publicity for there being an outside chance of unseating JRM - which there is and they have, unlike Labour - and you two are helping them along by taking the bait.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Well let's get loads more billionaires and tax them then.....
    Let’s start by not volunteering to hit the country with the equivalent impact of a severe recession and get rid of a Prime Minister who wants to fuck business.
    The only way to do that is put in a majority Tory govenrment and ensure Boris is defenestrated immediately afterwards.

    Otherwise, you know what we get instead...
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,296
    The idea that any politician is going to get rid of the NHS is nonsense. There are these regular things called elections which mean that anyone stupid enough to propose it will get hammered. Therefore this is why labour are always trying to place it in the evil Tories plans.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Well let's get loads more billionaires and tax them then.....
    Let’s start by not volunteering to hit the country with the equivalent impact of a severe recession and get rid of a Prime Minister who wants to fuck business.
    Good Morning Mr Meeks, a slight over statement if I might point out. Suggesting that won't hold much traction. His policies might well have that unfortunate side effect, but the policy is not to fuck business.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2019
    Completely Off Topic but in real life just been getting the kids ready for school when heard a loud commotion upstairs - went up to check what was going on and found a black crow flapping around in our bedroom banging into the wardrobe and windows and walls.

    I'm not superstitious but that was freaky - to make it more freaky and apparently more portentous the window was closed. I've checked every other window too, they're all closed. No chimney. I've got absolutely no idea how on earth a black crow has suddenly and without any open windows appeared in my bedroom . . .

    Managed to get it out by opening the window and it eventually found its way out but even without being superstitious that is strange and put me on edge, still got no idea where it came from . . .
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788
    ydoethur said:

    Even the Beeb are criticising Corbyn’s campaign slogans as lies, although they do rather pull their punches in the conclusion:

    General election 2019: Have the Conservatives 'slashed taxes for the richest'?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50249909

    During the Osborne years I lost my PA, my CB and paid a higher rate on a greater proportion of my income. I didn't complain (much). The country clearly needed the money to reduce the deficit and people like me fortunate enough to have a good income had to take the strain. But this "slashing taxes for the rich" meme is just irritating.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251

    Completely Off Topic but in real life just been getting the kids ready for school when heard a loud commotion upstairs - went up to check what was going on and found a black crow flapping around in our bedroom banging into the wardrobe and windows and walls.

    I'm not superstitious but that was freaky - to make it more freaky and more portentious the window was closed. I've checked every other window too, they're all closed. No chimney. I've got absolutely no idea how on earth a black crow has suddenly and without any open windows appeared in my bedroom . . .

    Managed to get it out by opening the window and it eventually found its way out but even without being superstitious that is strange and put me on edge, still got no idea where it came from . . .

    Not like last night was anything spe....oh.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    Flanner said:

    all this reminds me of the Blair-Bush image the LibDems used to hit Labour in GE2005. .I dont think that it will change very much except fire up the usual party faithful

    In GE 2005. the LDs went from 50 seats to 60. But Labour still ruled Scotland, and the Tories didn't have UKIP/Brexit snapping at their heels. We had a 2.001 party system

    This year, 60 LD seats would destroy Johnson. It'd destroy any prospect of a no-deal Brexit, guarantee a new referendum, consign the lying sexpest to a future of after dinner speeches no-one pays to listen to and almost certainly ensures any kind of Brexit dies forever.

    The two roadblocks to a Bozo majority are:

    - LibDems capturing a raft of Tory seats in the S and SW
    - Corbyn’s campaign effectively defending his Northern and Midlands marginals

    At the moment the first looks more likely than the second; both are possible and neither happening is also possible.

    Ideally stopping a Bozo Brexit needs a bit of both.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,522

    Completely Off Topic but in real life just been getting the kids ready for school when heard a loud commotion upstairs - went up to check what was going on and found a black crow flapping around in our bedroom banging into the wardrobe and windows and walls.

    I'm not superstitious but that was freaky - to make it more freaky and more portentious the window was closed. I've checked every other window too, they're all closed. No chimney. I've got absolutely no idea how on earth a black crow has suddenly and without any open windows appeared in my bedroom . . .

    Managed to get it out by opening the window and it eventually found its way out but even without being superstitious that is strange and put me on edge, still got no idea where it came from . . .

    Flew in earlier through an open door and was just sleeping peacefully until then, at a guess.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Which is of course one reason why nobody is anxious to make that comparison...

    Although weirdly doesn’t the US system cost about three times as much?
    The US system is bonkers inefficient. The US governement alone spends more per person than the combined public+private per person spend of the UK. Add in US private insurance and the figure goes crazy. As you say almost three times as much.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Well let's get loads more billionaires and tax them then.....
    The Americans seem to be able to tax a lot of their people even when they are abroad. It’s a shame we can’t do that.
  • Selebian said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding

    Compare it to the US
    Yup, this is why the British put up with such an unbelievably shitty health service. They compare it to the US, when they should be comparing it to pretty much any other developed country.

    Bang on.
    It actually comes out very well on value for money compared to most western health services (I'll try and find the study). But many other countries spend more on health care so some have better health care outcomes (not the US, which spends much more for much less) but some of the European systems. But if we want a better health service it will cost more. Sure, some efficiencies are possible, but we're already pretty much world leading in efficiency.
    It’s not just how much you spend it’s who, what and when - how you balance risk and choice between the state and the individual.

    A single healthcare provider can clearly use its market dominance to drive down purchase prices of drugs and healthcare services - that makes it “efficient” as it gets more bang for its buck - but it will also need a management framework of priorities to do that (which won’t always align with the interests of the individual needing the healthcare) and resort to rationing on the supply side too - that makes it “inefficient” as it is too big and slow to respond to market changes and consumer demands.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,788

    Completely Off Topic but in real life just been getting the kids ready for school when heard a loud commotion upstairs - went up to check what was going on and found a black crow flapping around in our bedroom banging into the wardrobe and windows and walls.

    I'm not superstitious but that was freaky - to make it more freaky and apparently more portentous the window was closed. I've checked every other window too, they're all closed. No chimney. I've got absolutely no idea how on earth a black crow has suddenly and without any open windows appeared in my bedroom . . .

    Managed to get it out by opening the window and it eventually found its way out but even without being superstitious that is strange and put me on edge, still got no idea where it came from . . .

    Was it Bercow by any chance?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    edited November 2019

    Completely Off Topic but in real life just been getting the kids ready for school when heard a loud commotion upstairs - went up to check what was going on and found a black crow flapping around in our bedroom banging into the wardrobe and windows and walls.

    I'm not superstitious but that was freaky - to make it more freaky and apparently more portentous the window was closed. I've checked every other window too, they're all closed. No chimney. I've got absolutely no idea how on earth a black crow has suddenly and without any open windows appeared in my bedroom . . .

    Managed to get it out by opening the window and it eventually found its way out but even without being superstitious that is strange and put me on edge, still got no idea where it came from . . .


    Today it is believed that the Crow symbolizes a new phase in someone’s life. If a crow appears in your life, it means that you should leave all the past behind you because something new has been born. A crow that appears in your life indicates it is time for you to use your second sight and to think more thoroughly about your life. It is usually believed that the crow is a symbol of bad luck and death, but it is not always the case. As we have already said, a crow may be a symbol of life magic and mysteries. It also symbolizes intelligence, flexibility and destiny. If a crow appears at a certain moment in your life, it can mean that you are going through a period of personal transformation and that it is time to discover your own personality much better.

    Maybe you should reinvent yourself as a remainer? ;)
  • felix said:

    Lol - apparebtly they turned her down a few weeks ago and she's already saying she doesn't like their Revoke policy.
    But she'll get her pay-off....

    I hope she loses her deposit.
    She has no connection to Eddisbury constituency, and she should never have been chosen as a candidate for any party.
    Why not ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    This twitter thread and programme on Dispatches gives some idea of what is in store with Britain Trump doing a deal:

    https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1188831701654482945?s=19
    Conversations about pricing happen, but that's not really my point. No other country has this fetish about public healthcare funding, it even made it into the opening of the London Olympics, it's frankly bizarre
    The NHS was a major reason people voted Brexit, and is central to the Tory party campaign.

    I am sure that you are right though, once they have their majority, the Tories will shaft the NHS and those CDE voters dependent on it.
    I don’t understand how we would pay more. Wasn’t it announced last year that negotiations had lead to previously unavailable drugs being made available as they now met cost benefit models.

    It doesn’t seem to make sense on a basic level. Can anyone explain why we would do this?
    Because what US Pharma wants out of a Trade Deal is removing that monopoly purchasing power that the DoH and NHS currently uses to keep down prices, and the end of NICE.

  • Completely Off Topic but in real life just been getting the kids ready for school when heard a loud commotion upstairs - went up to check what was going on and found a black crow flapping around in our bedroom banging into the wardrobe and windows and walls.

    I'm not superstitious but that was freaky - to make it more freaky and more portentious the window was closed. I've checked every other window too, they're all closed. No chimney. I've got absolutely no idea how on earth a black crow has suddenly and without any open windows appeared in my bedroom . . .

    Managed to get it out by opening the window and it eventually found its way out but even without being superstitious that is strange and put me on edge, still got no idea where it came from . . .

    Not like last night was anything spe....oh.
    LOL!
    ydoethur said:

    Flew in earlier through an open door and was just sleeping peacefully until then, at a guess.

    That was my best guess but I've no idea how long birds sleep for. All windows were closed overnight so I'm guessing then we slept last night with the crow already in our house all night from yesterday . . .
  • Mr. Thompson, you haven't recently angered a witch, have you?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    I really never got this NHS worship thing. Respecting doctors and medical staff? Sure.

    But when did a system of funding become an article of faith, what's so special about the NHS that makes it holy and sacred when compared to the German or Swiss models.

    Compare it to the US
    But why would you compare it to the US instead of, say, Germany or the Netherlands?
    Well let's spend between 25% to 30% more per person on healthcare before we compare the NHS ot the German or Netherlands healthcare system and then we'd have a fair comparison in terms of outcomes.
    Which is of course one reason why nobody is anxious to make that comparison...

    Although weirdly doesn’t the US system cost about three times as much?
    The US system is bonkers inefficient. The US governement alone spends more per person than the combined public+private per person spend of the UK. Add in US private insurance and the figure goes crazy. As you say almost three times as much.
    Yes, the US system is utterly bonkers, from the pervasive TV ads for prescription-only drugs, to the hundreds of thousands of dollars that each doctor needs to spend every year on malpractice insurance, because they get constantly sued by their patients.

    You do make a good point upthread that most European countries do spend more on healthcare than the UK does. The NHS system is relatively cheap, but that doesn’t mean that pouring money into an unreformed system will make it any better (except for the employees).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,718
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Even the Beeb are criticising Corbyn’s campaign slogans as lies, although they do rather pull their punches in the conclusion:

    General election 2019: Have the Conservatives 'slashed taxes for the richest'?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50249909

    During the Osborne years I lost my PA, my CB and paid a higher rate on a greater proportion of my income. I didn't complain (much). The country clearly needed the money to reduce the deficit and people like me fortunate enough to have a good income had to take the strain. But this "slashing taxes for the rich" meme is just irritating.
    That is BoZo's plan though. He promised* in his leadership campaign to raise the threshold for higher rate tax to £80,000.

    *yes, I know what his promises are worth!
This discussion has been closed.