The other BBC documentary worth seeing (now only the accessible version) shows how just a few years after a democratic election a government began murdering its opponents in a concentration camp and then turning up and shooting them in their own homes.
The only reason Sean and Tyndall can talk out of their backsides is lack of experience of what democracy being taken away really means.
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
Isn't it enough that we have an electoral system that unfairly benefits the duopoly without them needing to resort to preventing other parties being in the debates in case people might like what they hear and vote for them?
Our system is badly broken in this country but it's not in the interests of either of the two beneficiaries to do anything about it. The issue Nicky Norgan has raised is just another symptom of the same malaise. Two dinosaurs taken over by tiny unrepresentative groups and a straight jacket of a voting system that practically allows for no other choice.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
The IRA were around from 1913
The Irish Volunteers that became the IRA were formed in that year, yes, but Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteers had been formed in 1912. Then we can talk about the Fenians, and so on. But Theuniondivvie is absolutely right that the violent wave of "Troubles" that started in the mid-late 1960s was begun by loyalists. The IRA's border campaign of the late 1950s and early 1960s had been over for years by then.
There was no violence from the Ulster Volunteers until 1920, the Irish Volunteers began a violent campaign from the Easter Rising in 1916
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
The IRA were around from 1913
The Irish Volunteers that became the IRA were formed in that year, yes, but Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteers had been formed in 1912. Then we can talk about the Fenians, and so on. But Theuniondivvie is absolutely right that the violent wave of "Troubles" that started in the mid-late 1960s was begun by loyalists. The IRA's border campaign of the late 1950s and early 1960s had been over for years by then.
I always thought the army was sent in to protect the catholic community from loyalist threats.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
The IRA were around from 1913
The Irish Volunteers that became the IRA were formed in that year, yes, but Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteers had been formed in 1912. Then we can talk about the Fenians, and so on. But Theuniondivvie is absolutely right that the violent wave of "Troubles" that started in the mid-late 1960s was begun by loyalists. The IRA's border campaign of the late 1950s and early 1960s had been over for years by then.
There was no violence from the Ulster Volunteers until 1920, the Irish Volunteers began a violent campaign from the Easter Rising in 1916
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbish, the Tories are holding most of their 2017 vote that is all, all the polls are showing is mainly a Labour to LD swing relative to 2017 which under FPTP means Tory gains from Labour. Tory members will be out to get the Tory vote out with the centre left Remain vote split
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of times you have predicted this or that and been proved to have had catastrophic misjudgements has led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate. Boris also genuinely backs his Deal as it takes GB out of the SM and CU and enables a Canada style FTA, he is not a diehard No Dealer like Farage nor does he care what the DUP think about NI and he respects the GFA
Boris Johnson was aware there was a potential conflict of interest in his relationship with Jennifer Arcuri, the US businesswoman has claimed, on the eve of the publication of an inquiry into how she secured a £100,000 government grant.
In an interview for Bloomberg Businessweek, Arcuri also said that a senior official at the then London mayor’s promotional agency London & Partners (L&P) was renting a room in her Shoreditch live/work space in 2013. Around that time Johnson visited Arcuri in the property and the agency was sponsoring her events.
In a further embarrassment to the prime minister, Arcuri said Johnson was aware of her business links to the former city trader and Libor-rigger, Tom Hayes.
I mentioned the link with Tom Hayes and the questions that ought to be asked some weeks back. Not that anyone noticed.
In the same vein, quite what Rudi Giuliani, Trump’s personal lawyer, is doing getting involved with Dmitri Firtash, a man currently fighting an extradition request by the US authorities and very closely connected with some seriously nasty Eastern European major criminals, including one on the FBI’s 10 Most Wanted List, is an interesting question which bears rather more scrutiny than it is getting.
A great shame that investigative journalism seems to have died a death.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
Local rivalries run deep in the East Midlands. I doubt if wondering around Loughborough and saying it is in Nottinghamshire will win you any friends.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask for some geographical accuracy.
I didn’t say it was in Nottinghamshire. I said it was Nottingham(ish). FFS.
Indeed. It is closer to Nottingham than either Retford, Newark or Worksop. All of which are Nottingham(ish)
I'm from Loughborough and I would say it is near Nottingham but never "Nottingham-ish" Leicester is closer.
For what it’s worth, I grew up in Leicestershire and it’s in my head as “that town close to Leicester” rather than “that town close to Nottingham”. But it might depend where you’re looking at it from, and it’s possibly not the most important issue of the night.
More interesting than the same old Leave/Remain battles between the decideds on here though.
2015 - UKIP stood in 624 constituencies and polled 12.6% = Tory majority
2017 - UKIP stood in 378 constituencies and polled 1.8% = Hung Parliament
2015 - Modern liberal Cameron as Tory leader = Tory majority 2017 - Vile authoritarian May as leader = Hung Parliament 2019 - Modern liberal Boris as Tory leader = ???
I still expect May to have got a higher voteshare than Boris or Cameron but Boris to get a majority as Cameron did in 2015
In light of this post we should all pile on a Labour landslide.
But you won't. Because *shock horror* HYUFD could be right....
He might. I am however wondering where these seats will come from.
I can see the Tories retaking Stroud, capturing Newcastle under Lyme and Bishop Auckland and picking up perhaps four seats in Wales - Delyn, Alyn and Deeside, Cardiff North and Bridgend - without making a huge effort. Other realistic targets include Bolsover, Canterbury, Eastbourne, Darlington, North Norfolk, Bedford, Westmoreland and Lonsdale, Barrow, Chester, Lincoln.
But after that I am struggling to see where these gains will come from. And even those won’t offset likely losses in Scotland and the South East. For example, Kensington, for all it’s so marginal and represented by somebody who looks and behaves like a refugee from the Producers, is probably safe for Labour for now given today’s Grenfell report. Meanwhile surely nobody is expecting that idiot Goldsmith to hold Richmond Park.
Labour's majority in Chester in 2017 was almost 10,000.
Agreed, no chance in Chester.
There are quite a few other seats the Tories could win on a good day (and some that are have slimmer majorities than those listed). On a good day, mind:
Crewe and Nantwich, Warwick and Leamington, Penistone and Stocksbridge, Colne Valley, Wakefield, Blackpool South, Dewsbury, Stockton South, Northfield, West Bromwich West, Bassetlaw, Keighley.
It’s not beyond the realms of possibility for a good chunk of those to turn blue if the stars align.
Labour had a majority of under 100 in Chester in 2015. The fact the majority went up to 9000 odd two years later doesn't mean it can't come down again just as quickly particularly if the LDs put their vote up by a few thousand which seems likely.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbishsplit
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of times you have predicted this or that and been proved to have had catastrophic misjudgements has led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
What 'catastrophic misjudgements' as far as I can see most things I have predicted this year have happened, from Boris becoming Tory Leader and PM and trying to prorogue Parliament to Trudeau being re elected and including an extension only for a general election
The other BBC documentary worth seeing (now only the accessible version) shows how just a few years after a democratic election a government began murdering its opponents in a concentration camp and then turning up and shooting them in their own homes.
The only reason Sean and Tyndall can talk out of their backsides is lack of experience of what democracy being taken away really means.
Please stop calling me Sean. It is an insult to his greatness
"5) Is the Brexit party going to rise with increased attention in the election campaign, fade to irrelevance or stay roughly where it currently is?"
How sure is it that the Brexit Party is even going to run in this election? The irony is that by running in lots of constituencies they may (so the Tories hope anyway) help the Tories, but by not running at all they may harm them. This is getting so mental.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate
I don’t think he has any political views or principles at all.
Which as I recall is what his first boss concluded back in his journalist days.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
MPs have spent three years trying to implement Brexit, often at the expense of many more pressing issues. The last thing they have done is ignore the referendum - if only! Why hasn't Brexit happened then? Because MPs can't agree on the form it should take. Labour MPs were elected in 2017, after the referendum, on a manifesto promising a soft Brexit with customs union and alignment with EU rules. Conservative MPs were elected on a manifesto of a cleaner break; the government has negotiated two deals but hasn't been able to find a majority - because Tory MPs wouldn't all vote for the first deal, and the DUP won't vote for the second, and the opposition have a mandate from their voters not to vote for a deal that they disagree with. No matter how many times people on here try to make out like it's a Remainer conspiracy, it simply isn't true. MPs just can't agree, and the public have not provided an electoral mandate, via a stable majority, to any particular version of Brexit. Ultimately, it is the fault of the public, who are just as divided and averse to compromise on the issue as MPs are. Maybe they will deliver that mandate in December. Personally I doubt it.
2015 - UKIP stood in 624 constituencies and polled 12.6% = Tory majority
2017 - UKIP stood in 378 constituencies and polled 1.8% = Hung Parliament
2015 - Modern liberal Cameron as Tory leader = Tory majority 2017 - Vile authoritarian May as leader = Hung Parliament 2019 - Modern liberal Boris as Tory leader = ???
I still expect May to have got a higher voteshare than Boris or Cameron but Boris to get a majority as Cameron did in 2015
In light of this post we should all pile on a Labour landslide.
But you won't. Because *shock horror* HYUFD could be right....
He might. I am however wondering where these seats will come from.
I can see the Tories retaking Stroud, capturing Newcastle under Lyme and Bishop Auckland and picking up perhaps four seats in Wales - Delyn, Alyn and Deeside, Cardiff North and Bridgend - without making a huge effort. Other realistic targets include Bolsover, Canterbury, Eastbourne, Darlington, North Norfolk, Bedford, Westmoreland and Lonsdale, Barrow, Chester, Lincoln.
But after that I am struggling to see where these gains will come from. And even those won’t offset likely losses in Scotland and the South East. For example, Kensington, for all it’s so marginal and represented by somebody who looks and behaves like a refugee from the Producers, is probably safe for Labour for now given today’s Grenfell report. Meanwhile surely nobody is expecting that idiot Goldsmith to hold Richmond Park.
Labour's majority in Chester in 2017 was almost 10,000.
Agreed, no chance in Chester.
There are quite a few other seats the Tories could win on a good day (and some that are have slimmer majorities than those listed). On a good day, mind:
Crewe and Nantwich, Warwick and Leamington, Penistone and Stocksbridge, Colne Valley, Wakefield, Blackpool South, Dewsbury, Stockton South, Northfield, West Bromwich West, Bassetlaw, Keighley.
It’s not beyond the realms of possibility for a good chunk of those to turn blue if the stars align.
Labour had a majority of under 100 in Chester in 2015. The fact the majority went up to 9000 odd two years later doesn't mean it can't come down again just as quickly particularly if the LDs put their vote up by a few thousand which seems likely.
I was wondering what the reason was for Chester going safe. It was always a ding-dong battle as I recall.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate
Boris just believes in himself and what will make him look better.....end of. I don't want to be nasty H....but your sycophancy for someone who is so morally repugnant is annoying to say the least.....
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate
I don’t think he has any political views or principles at all.
Which as I recall is what his first boss concluded back in his journalist days.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
MPs have spent three years trying to implement Brexit, often at the expense of many more pressing issues. The last thing they have done is ignore the referendum - if only! Why hasn't Brexit happened then? Because MPs can't agree on the form it should take. Labour MPs were elected in 2017, after the referendum, on a manifesto promising a soft Brexit with customs union and alignment with EU rules. Conservative MPs were elected on a manifesto of a cleaner break; the government has negotiated two deals but hasn't been able to find a majority - because Tory MPs wouldn't all vote for the first deal, and the DUP won't vote for the second, and the opposition have a mandate from their voters not to vote for a deal that they disagree with. No matter how many times people on here try to make out like it's a Remainer conspiracy, it simply isn't true. MPs just can't agree, and the public have not provided an electoral mandate, via a stable majority, to any particular version of Brexit. Ultimately, it is the fault of the public, who are just as divided and averse to compromise on the issue as MPs are. Maybe they will deliver that mandate in December. Personally I doubt it.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
But this is absurd hyperbole. People still have the vote. We're just starting an election campaign.
We're simply working through a difficult constitutional conflict between the mandate of a referendum and the mandate of MPs.
Accusing MPs of ending democracy is a disgraceful attempt to intimidate them into voting the way you want.
You're an apologist for political violence. You're part of this problem.
They were trying to end democracy by ignoring a democratic vote. Deny it all you like but that is a fact.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbishsplit
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of times you have predicted this or that and been proved to have had catastrophic misjudgements has led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
What 'catastrophic misjudgements' as far as I can see most things I have predicted this year have happened, from Boris becoming Tory Leader and PM and trying to prorogue Parliament to Trudeau being re elected and including an extension only for a general election
No EU extension. Boris would rather resign, than have the extension. UK would leave on 31/10/2019. BJ would not send the letter - different to not signing it. These are just the last two weeks...
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate
Boris just believes in himself and what will make him look better.....end of. I don't want to be nasty H....but your sycophancy for someone who is so morally repugnant is annoying to say the least.....
Corbyn is hardly made of moral virtue given his unsavoury links to anti Semites, the IRA and Hamas and we are electing the PM not the Pope. May had more morals than Boris and Corbyn put together but she could not win an election or deliver Brexit unlike Boris
The other BBC documentary worth seeing (now only the accessible version) shows how just a few years after a democratic election a government began murdering its opponents in a concentration camp and then turning up and shooting them in their own homes.
The only reason Sean and Tyndall can talk out of their backsides is lack of experience of what democracy being taken away really means.
Fatuous and stupid as ever Ian. They were able to do what they did precisely because they started overturning democratic protections and eventually ignored democracy completely. It is the revokers and losers vote adherents who are far more dangerous than those sounding the warnings.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbishsplit
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of times you have predicted this or that and been proved to have had catastrophic misjudgements has led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
What 'catastrophic misjudgements' as far as I can see most things I have predicted this year have happened, from Boris becoming Tory Leader and PM and trying to prorogue Parliament to Trudeau being re elected and including an extension only for a general election
No EU extension. Boris would rather resign, than have the extension. UK would leave on 31/10/2019. BJ would not send the letter - different to not signing it. These are just the last two weeks...
Don’t forget the dead cert Macron/Orban/Polish veto.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
Local rivalries run deep in the East Midlands. I doubt if wondering around Loughborough and saying it is in Nottinghamshire will win you any friends.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask for some geographical accuracy.
I didn’t say it was in Nottinghamshire. I said it was Nottingham(ish). FFS.
I know Loughborough like the back of my hand. No one would ever describe it as Nottingham ish.
I would imagine one thing that all of us on here with Leicestershire connections can rejoice in is that David “alternative medicines” Treddinick has finally pissed off.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate
I don’t think he has any political views or principles at all.
Which as I recall is what his first boss concluded back in his journalist days.
He does however pursue a liberal lifestyle.
If Boris was a social conservative he would oppose gay marriage, oppose abortion, have abstained from pre marital sex and be sceptical about climate change. As we know none of that applies to him, Ann Widdecombe is a genuine social conservative, Boris is not
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
But you are trying to justify threats of violence by the far right under a pretense of the ‘will of the people’. Does that not sound familiar?
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
But you are trying to justify threats of violence by the far right under a pretense of the ‘will of the people’. Does that not sound familiar?
Remainers have consistently used the threat of renewed violence in Ulster, as an excuse for reversing or cancelling Brexit.
So Remainers are also fascist. Maybe we are all fascist.
Perhaps that is the answer to Brexit? We admit we are all fascist, in our own ways, then we move on.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
Something I do find interesting is that Line of Duty is set in "the East Midlands" and it does look like it - despite being filmed in Belfast. They have a damned good location scout on that series.
The other BBC documentary worth seeing (now only the accessible version) shows how just a few years after a democratic election a government began murdering its opponents in a concentration camp and then turning up and shooting them in their own homes.
The only reason Sean and Tyndall can talk out of their backsides is lack of experience of what democracy being taken away really means.
Fatuous and stupid as ever Ian. They were able to do what they did precisely because they started overturning democratic protections and eventually ignored democracy completely. It is the revokers and losers vote adherents who are far more dangerous than those sounding the warnings.
Extrapolating from democratic votes in parliament and campaigns for a public vote to the outrages of history like that is absurd.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
There is no threat. That is simply another way of you trying to close down an argument you don't agree with. Warning about something and threatening it are entirely different and it is clear you try to conflate them because you are not willing to face uncomfortable truths.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
There is no threat. That is simply another way of you trying to close down an argument you don't agree with. Warning about something and threatening it are entirely different and it is clear you try to conflate them because you are not willing to face uncomfortable truths.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
The two of you are talking about different things - Richard about direct democracy and Obitus, about parliamentary democracy.
They're not incompatible. They can even complement each other, although Brexit wouldn't be a very good template for that.
The other BBC documentary worth seeing (now only the accessible version) shows how just a few years after a democratic election a government began murdering its opponents in a concentration camp and then turning up and shooting them in their own homes.
The only reason Sean and Tyndall can talk out of their backsides is lack of experience of what democracy being taken away really means.
Fatuous and stupid as ever Ian. They were able to do what they did precisely because they started overturning democratic protections and eventually ignored democracy completely. It is the revokers and losers vote adherents who are far more dangerous than those sounding the warnings.
Extrapolating from democratic votes in parliament and campaigns for a public vote to the outrages of history like that is absurd.
And yet that is exactly what you just did in the comment I answered.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
There is no threat. That is simply another way of you trying to close down an argument you don't agree with. Warning about something and threatening it are entirely different and it is clear you try to conflate them because you are not willing to face uncomfortable truths.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
Yes, people disagreeing with you is a way of closing down an argument. Fool proof.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
More rumours the Brexit Party is going to stand in just a small amount of seats , high Labour Leave areas .
I suppose the thinking is to help take Labour Leavers away and allow the Tories to come through .
If they don’t stand though in many other areas then what do Labour Leavers do if they have no party to vote for .
Of course they have a party. The Can't Be Arsed Party will embrace them all, tell them to pull up a chair, open a can and have a slice of pizza while they watch the telly.....
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
But you are trying to justify threats of violence by the far right under a pretense of the ‘will of the people’. Does that not sound familiar?
Remainers have consistently used the threat of renewed violence in Ulster, as an excuse for reversing or cancelling Brexit.
So Remainers are also fascist. Maybe we are all fascist.
Perhaps that is the answer to Brexit? We admit we are all fascist, in our own ways, then we move on.
"Join the Brexit Infantry and save the Galaxy. Service guarantees Settled Status!"
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbishsplit
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of times you have predicted this or that and been proved to have had catastrophic misjudgements has led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
What 'catastrophic misjudgeection
No EU extension. Boris would rather resign, than have the extension. UK would leave on 31/10/2019. BJ would not send the letter - different to not signing it. These are just the last two weeks...
I said there would only be an EU extension with a general election or EUref2, we are getting a general election. I said Boris would aim to leave on 31st October, MPs blocked him.
Boris sent no letter requesting extension, just a copy of the Benn Act unsigned and a signed letter with his view opposing extension
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbishsplit
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
What 'catastrophic misjudgeection
No EU extension. Boris would rather resign, than have the extension. UK would leave on 31/10/2019. BJ would not send the letter - different to not signing it. These are just the last two weeks...
I said there would only be an EU extension with a general election or EUref2, we are getting a general election. I said Boris would aim to leave on 31st October, MPs blocked him.
Boris sent no letter requesting extension, just a copy of the Benn Act unsigned and a signed letter with his view opposing extension
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
There is no threat. That is simply another way of you trying to close down an argument you don't agree with. Warning about something and threatening it are entirely different and it is clear you try to conflate them because you are not willing to face uncomfortable truths.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
The two of you are talking about different things - Richard about direct democracy and Obitus, about parliamentary democracy.
They're not incompatible. They can even complement each other, although Brexit wouldn't be a very good template for that.
It is more fundamental than that Peter. There is a basic principle here that warning that actions might have bad consequences is being turned into advocating those consequences as a means of shutting down the argument.
As Byronic points out that means that anyone warning of a return to violence in NI as a result of Brexit should be considered as advocating it. It is a stupid position to take and is designed merely as a means of silencing people through claiming they are extremists.
Being charitable and assuming for a moment none of our parties are cult like, I think it is fair to say at the very least that even for a system which is treated a bit presidential despite not being so, we do tend to overdo the focusing on the party leaders a tad.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
But you are trying to justify threats of violence by the far right under a pretense of the ‘will of the people’. Does that not sound familiar?
Dont you have an Open Uni degree u need to be studying for?......
Labour had a majority of under 100 in Chester in 2015. The fact the majority went up to 9000 odd two years later doesn't mean it can't come down again just as quickly particularly if the LDs put their vote up by a few thousand which seems likely.
I was wondering what the reason was for Chester going safe. It was always a ding-dong battle as I recall.
Correct me if I'm wrong but my guess is Chester is now a much more student and academic town compared to the 1980s.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
But you are trying to justify threats of violence by the far right under a pretense of the ‘will of the people’. Does that not sound familiar?
Dont you have an Open Uni degree u need to be studying for?......
You're on here quite a lot.......
(This is not a dig)
I’m actually on here a lot less than I used to be. 🤷♂️
Being charitable and assuming for a moment none of our parties are cult like, I think it is fair to say at the very least that even for a system which is treated a bit presidential despite not being so, we do tend to overdo the focusing on the party leaders a tad.
Well, if it isn't Swinson talking about revoking Brexit - what else have the Libdems got? I'm clued up about politics, but I really don't know what else their distinctive offering to the voters entails.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
There is no threat. That is simply another way of you trying to close down an argument you don't agree with. Warning about something and threatening it are entirely different and it is clear you try to conflate them because you are not willing to face uncomfortable truths.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
I didn't say you made a threat. I do say that you are an apologist for the people making those threats to MPs.
Leavers also lost an election. Many elections. They have never elected a majority of MPs who support an agreed way of us leaving the EU.
It is undemocratic to say that the referendum overrides all other votes.
It worker for the Lib Dems with Nick Clegg in 2010, (and for that matter for the Scottish conservatives with Ruth Davidson in 2017) when the partys' put their faces on everything, but (at the time) nick and Ruth where popular, I'm not saying Jo is unpopular just that she is unknown. Will it still work? maybe, is it worth a try Probably.
Being charitable and assuming for a moment none of our parties are cult like, I think it is fair to say at the very least that even for a system which is treated a bit presidential despite not being so, we do tend to overdo the focusing on the party leaders a tad.
Well, if it isn't Swinson talking about revoking Brexit - what else have the Libdems got? I'm clued up about politics, but I really don't know what else their distinctive offering to the voters entails.
I found that really distasteful. Why bring his kids onto it? If Johnson had made a snide comment about her parenting, there'd have been uproar.
Absolutely there would have been. Many of his have made gags about his personal life and kids situation, but it doesn't pass the test of 'would person saying it be outraged if the roles were reversed?' to establish a base line of reasonableness.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not!
On a similar subject: Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
winning and losing...
That is rubbishsplit
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
I don't agree. I think for myself on these things and don't agree with your emphasis on polling. The amount of times you have predicted this or that and been proved to have had catastrophic misjudgements has led me to be very cautious in giving you much credibility. You didn't have your moniker changed to an ass for no reason!
What 'catastrophic misjudgeection
No EU extension. Boris would rather resign, than have the extension. UK would leave on 31/10/2019. BJ would not send the letter - different to not signing it. These are just the last two weeks...
I said there would only be an EU extension with a general election or EUref2, we are getting a general election. I said Boris would aim to leave on 31st October, MPs blocked him.
Boris sent no letter requesting extension, just a copy of the Benn Act unsigned and a signed letter with his view opposing extension
You told us Bozo was a man of principle who would resign rather than break his promise by running with an extension (which was agreed before the GE was agreed, in any event)
I found that really distasteful. Why bring his kids onto it? If Johnson had made a snide comment about her parenting, there'd have been uproar.
TBH given what we know about the role of parents in influencing the life chances and emotional stability of their children, it's surprising that men are still able to get away with not being committed to their kids.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
Says the fascist apologist.
We have already established it is you who are following the fascist playbook of ignoring votes you don't like. Crawl back under your rock.
But you are trying to justify threats of violence by the far right under a pretense of the ‘will of the people’. Does that not sound familiar?
Dont you have an Open Uni degree u need to be studying for?......
You're on here quite a lot.......
(This is not a dig)
I’m actually on here a lot less than I used to be. 🤷♂️
It does seem as though the most frequent posters are all lawyers, busy with the ever-increasing & demanding work, but somehow able to post 24/7.
So, Gallowgate is just getting into his stride.
When he actually has his law degree, he will be on here constantly.
I found that really distasteful. Why bring his kids onto it? If Johnson had made a snide comment about her parenting, there'd have been uproar.
Yes I thought that. She was suggesting he was a rubbish parent, and having a pop at partisan attack lines whilst making one. She also brought her son into it, by name. Not classy.
Being charitable and assuming for a moment none of our parties are cult like, I think it is fair to say at the very least that even for a system which is treated a bit presidential despite not being so, we do tend to overdo the focusing on the party leaders a tad.
Well, if it isn't Swinson talking about revoking Brexit - what else have the Libdems got? I'm clued up about politics, but I really don't know what else their distinctive offering to the voters entails.
And...after the lesson of tuition fees....if the LD's hold the BOP....give Swinson a cabinet position and she'd be up for a No Deal Brexit as fast as a rat up a drainpipe....
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
Boris is not a social liberal who believes in open door immigration and backs extinction rebellion, however is not a social conservative who opposes gay marriage and abortion either, he is a social moderate
I don’t think he has any political views or principles at all.
Which as I recall is what his first boss concluded back in his journalist days.
He does however pursue a liberal lifestyle.
If Boris was a social conservative he would oppose gay marriage, oppose abortion, have abstained from pre marital sex and be sceptical about climate change. As we know none of that applies to him, Ann Widdecombe is a genuine social conservative, Boris is not
Er... plenty of social conservatives have indulged in pre- and extra-marital sex. Social conservatives tend to prioritise interfering with other people's lives above adopting their strictures themselves.
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. An opinion that is self-contradictory because it insists on cancelling the democracy of my elected MP representing her constituents by voting freely in the Commons to the best of her judgement.
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
There is no threat. That is simply another way of you trying to close down an argument you don't agree with. Warning about something and threatening it are entirely different and it is clear you try to conflate them because you are not willing to face uncomfortable truths.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
I didn't say you made a threat. I do say that you are an apologist for the people making those threats to MPs.
Leavers also lost an election. Many elections. They have never elected a majority of MPs who support an agreed way of us leaving the EU.
It is undemocratic to say that the referendum overrides all other votes.
All those other votes were enacted. The only one which has not been followed through is the one that Leave won.
Being charitable and assuming for a moment none of our parties are cult like, I think it is fair to say at the very least that even for a system which is treated a bit presidential despite not being so, we do tend to overdo the focusing on the party leaders a tad.
Well, if it isn't Swinson talking about revoking Brexit - what else have the Libdems got? I'm clued up about politics, but I really don't know what else their distinctive offering to the voters entails.
The worst thing about the LD's is that they are still spouting their bullshit about how they moderated the Tories in the coalition.....
It's quite impressive to maintain such high levels of infighting even as they get smaller and smaller. Not the first to do so of course, but still an achievement.
Edit:
Wiki says Leader: Vacant. Deputy Leader: Vacant. Deputy Chairman: Vacant. Still have a Chairman though. For now.
Feels like they could end up the equivalent of a tiny, moribund parish which bumbled along until it had no councillors or clerk, and it took auditors awhile to even notice they'd ceased to exist.
Being charitable and assuming for a moment none of our parties are cult like, I think it is fair to say at the very least that even for a system which is treated a bit presidential despite not being so, we do tend to overdo the focusing on the party leaders a tad.
Well, if it isn't Swinson talking about revoking Brexit - what else have the Libdems got? I'm clued up about politics, but I really don't know what else their distinctive offering to the voters entails.
I'm in a LD/Tory marginal....a bit like the choice between eating a pile of vomit/ or chomping on a rotten, maggot infested corpse.....
It's quite impressive to maintain such high levels of infighting even as they get smaller and smaller. Not the first to do so of course, but still an achievement.
Will the last UKIP member be left arguing with himself? (It would have to be a he, wouldn't it?)
Labour had a majority of under 100 in Chester in 2015. The fact the majority went up to 9000 odd two years later doesn't mean it can't come down again just as quickly particularly if the LDs put their vote up by a few thousand which seems likely.
I was wondering what the reason was for Chester going safe. It was always a ding-dong battle as I recall.
Correct me if I'm wrong but my guess is Chester is now a much more student and academic town compared to the 1980s.
Chester HE college became a University, and has pursued aggressive expansion. College of Law has also expanded. Most of those students living in and around the city centre, and outlying wards like Christleton.
Lots of working families moving out to other Cheshire and north Wales areas, due to cheaper/bigger housing and more space.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The Conservative party voted en mass to block Scottish Devolution after a referendum that passed by a far larger margin than Brexit.
Do you think they should all have been assaulted by surly Scotsmen?
No, this is bollocks. The vote in favour of devolution in 1979 was about exactly the same as for Brexit but in a much lower turnout.
1997 you idiot. The Conservatives voted against the Bill establishing the Scottish Parliament after the Referendum.
Comments
The only reason Sean and Tyndall can talk out of their backsides is lack of experience of what democracy being taken away really means.
Our system is badly broken in this country but it's not in the interests of either of the two beneficiaries to do anything about it. The issue Nicky Norgan has raised is just another symptom of the same malaise. Two dinosaurs taken over by tiny unrepresentative groups and a straight jacket of a voting system that practically allows for no other choice.
In the same vein, quite what Rudi Giuliani, Trump’s personal lawyer, is doing getting involved with Dmitri Firtash, a man currently fighting an extradition request by the US authorities and very closely connected with some seriously nasty Eastern European major criminals, including one on the FBI’s 10 Most Wanted List, is an interesting question which bears rather more scrutiny than it is getting.
A great shame that investigative journalism seems to have died a death.
More interesting than the same old Leave/Remain battles between the decideds on here though.
How sure is it that the Brexit Party is even going to run in this election? The irony is that by running in lots of constituencies they may (so the Tories hope anyway) help the Tories, but by not running at all they may harm them. This is getting so mental.
Which as I recall is what his first boss concluded back in his journalist days.
He does however pursue a liberal lifestyle.
No matter how many times people on here try to make out like it's a Remainer conspiracy, it simply isn't true. MPs just can't agree, and the public have not provided an electoral mandate, via a stable majority, to any particular version of Brexit. Ultimately, it is the fault of the public, who are just as divided and averse to compromise on the issue as MPs are. Maybe they will deliver that mandate in December. Personally I doubt it.
Very well said!
You do not preserve democracy in such a way. It's a conflict and a difficult one, but one we can work through peacefully if we don't use threats of violence to try and get our way.
Boris would rather resign, than have the extension.
UK would leave on 31/10/2019.
BJ would not send the letter - different to not signing it.
These are just the last two weeks...
I suppose the thinking is to help take Labour Leavers away and allow the Tories to come through .
If they don’t stand though in many other areas then what do Labour Leavers do if they have no party to vote for .
So Remainers are also fascist. Maybe we are all fascist.
Perhaps that is the answer to Brexit? We admit we are all fascist, in our own ways, then we move on.
Democracy is preserved by adhering to it even when you lose. That is a lesson that clearly the Remain side have failed to learn.
They're not incompatible. They can even complement each other, although Brexit wouldn't be a very good template for that.
Excuse me while I pour more wine to deaden the pain.
It's the same part of the country.....
Boris sent no letter requesting extension, just a copy of the Benn Act unsigned and a signed letter with his view opposing extension
As Byronic points out that means that anyone warning of a return to violence in NI as a result of Brexit should be considered as advocating it. It is a stupid position to take and is designed merely as a means of silencing people through claiming they are extremists.
Not impossible next time.
You're on here quite a lot.......
(This is not a dig)
To compare the consequences of breaking that to a revoke of Article 50 via a democratically elected Parliament is absurd.
God, this is a depressing election.
Doesn't look like this will be a 2010, 2015, 2017 general election from a polling perspective.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1189666655552585728
Really.....
Leavers also lost an election. Many elections. They have never elected a majority of MPs who support an agreed way of us leaving the EU.
It is undemocratic to say that the referendum overrides all other votes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50238421
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Tonight_(video_game)
So, Gallowgate is just getting into his stride.
When he actually has his law degree, he will be on here constantly.
And...after the lesson of tuition fees....if the LD's hold the BOP....give Swinson a cabinet position and she'd be up for a No Deal Brexit as fast as a rat up a drainpipe....
Fuck that for an advent calendar. Give me one with chocolate Santas.....
The worst thing about the LD's is that they are still spouting their bullshit about how they moderated the Tories in the coalition.....
The Conservative Party is over.
Whatever Johnson leads, its not conservative.
Edit:
Wiki says Leader: Vacant. Deputy Leader: Vacant. Deputy Chairman: Vacant. Still have a Chairman though. For now.
Feels like they could end up the equivalent of a tiny, moribund parish which bumbled along until it had no councillors or clerk, and it took auditors awhile to even notice they'd ceased to exist.
approximately 3 per constituency, does anybody else know what others have had when they do this? if anybody else has done this?
Well here's the electoral calculus prediction for each constituency:
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/orderedseats.html
It give a Conservative majority of 76 despite 13 losses to the LibDems and another 8 losses to the SNP.
Now some of the predicted Conservative gains from Labour - Wolverhampton SE, West Brom E and Gedling for example - look ridiculous to me.
But on the other hand its possible that the Conservatives could win a few of those they're not predicted to.
I'm in a LD/Tory marginal....a bit like the choice between eating a pile of vomit/ or chomping on a rotten, maggot infested corpse.....
I will vote LD- but what a terrible choice.....
Lots of working families moving out to other Cheshire and north Wales areas, due to cheaper/bigger housing and more space.
When I was there, Gyles B was still the MP...