This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Balls. And a reminder of your fondness for forms of fascism. Or was that SeanT ?
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
Who does everyone want to see as a 'Portillo moment'?
Niche choice in my case, but it's Darren Jones (Lab, Bristol NW). He used to work with Mrs Drutt and he's the most insufferable person either of us have ever met at work. We have about thirty years in law firms between us so this is a high bar.
I can't find him longer than evens and the size of the BF exchange market won't buy a pint.
Always good to see the loss of the thick and arrogant, so IDS.
For the sake of the good people of Aberdeen South, Ross 'Handsy' Thomson.
Swinson getting punted would be highly amusing.
IDS. JRM. Defeat the acronyms initializations!
FTFY if you cannot pronounce the letters it’s not an acronym
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
Why dont you just come out and admit how biased your opinion us...
You have to admit that Cleverly was struggling - actually gulping. He became incoherent. Swinson, in contrast, was relaxed yet focused. She has a good rapport with Neil. I don't think Neil respects Cleverly. Cleverly was saying things like:- you and I know that Labour would wreck the economy. He was appealing for support from Neil! Which he didn't get because Neil is a professional.
Absolutely. I am certainly not in Roger's camp and it was absolutely clear to me that Cleverly was being taken apart very professionally by Neil.
The big issue is these were all obvious attack lines that any interviewer worth their salt is going to use against the party Chairman as we run into a campaign. And yet Cleverly seemed completely unprepared and relied just on soundbites and deflections. A very sub-standard performance. I hope the Tories start putting up some better spokespeople.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
Our representatives voting in parliament and campaigners calling peacefully for a referendum and people standing for election IS democracy.
Sadly the lesson from history is that when democracy is genuinely taken away, ordinary people tend to acquiesce out of fear, rather than resort to violence to restore it
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
The key is not members but active members in the right places. I'd say in my patch that 10% of the Tory members are actually active and probably the same or less for Labour. The idea that there is this half a million or 170,000 to draw on is utter nonsense.
I'm most annoyed to see that in the picture above Theresa May is wearing what looks like an OUWBC blazer, and Nicola Sturgeon an OUWLRC blazer. AFAIK neither are entitled!
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
This crap should have been sorted after the last shit show. If we are going to have debates every GE, which seems the case, there needs somebody like the electoral commission to come up with rules / criteria.
Because otherwise we get both politicians and the media arguing among themselves.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Despicable attempt to justify actual death threats. It's one hair's breadth from endorsing them.
I'm really not doing that, Read me more carefully.
Personally, I now wish the referendum had never happened. It has unleashed demons which were best left buried, in Ireland and in Britain. It was tragically mishandled from the get-go. Cameron was obscenely casual
But we are where we are. And I can see awful dangers ahead. The best bet now is we Brexit with a Boris deal, and everyone calms down. Revoke would be explosive, in a terrible terrible way.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
Well you’re saying my vote doesn’t count. This is a circular argument.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
Ignore the headline and the tactical voting hypotheticals, we have the first proper MRP poll reported in the Guardian. Sample of 46,000 and seat totals of:
Conservative 364 Labour 189 Scottish National 52 Liberal Democrat 23
Conservative majority of 44 would be their largest since 1987.
I don't want to discount this without reason but they (Focaldata) don't look like a company who will be publishing their polling tables. I'd want to see one from a company I'd heard from (was it yougov doing this kind of thing last time?).
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
The key is not members but active members in the right places. I'd say in my patch that 10% of the Tory members are actually active and probably the same or less for Labour. The idea that there is this half a million or 170,000 to draw on is utter nonsense.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
What extent did terror attacks play in the last election result? Madrid bombings week before polling day led to surprise result, so in 2017 we would wonder if there would be a surprise result. And there was?
We are all over complicating this election. The Tories will get a small but workable overall majority. Of about 30ish. Why?
Because they are the only ones with half sensible policy.
Labour want to renegotiate their own deal and then have a second referendum : - silly policy as people are sick of this and want to put it to bed, not another divisive referendum, also why Labour get a better deal than Corbyn?
Libdem want to revoke- which goes against the Brithish sense of fair play, and would also be hugely divisive even more than a second referendum, if the atmosphere is bad now, imagine what revoke would do
The Brexit Party want No Deal- which would kill the economy stone dead, Brits ain't voting for that
Tories have the only sensible policy in the circumstances, it respects the result and keeps the economy on track.
Who does everyone want to see as a 'Portillo moment'?
Niche choice in my case, but it's Darren Jones (Lab, Bristol NW). He used to work with Mrs Drutt and he's the most insufferable person either of us have ever met at work. We have about thirty years in law firms between us so this is a high bar.
I can't find him longer than evens and the size of the BF exchange market won't buy a pint.
Always good to see the loss of the thick and arrogant, so IDS.
For the sake of the good people of Aberdeen South, Ross 'Handsy' Thomson.
Swinson getting punted would be highly amusing.
IDS. JRM. Defeat the acronyms initializations!
FTFY if you cannot pronounce the letters it’s not an acronym
Well the initialisations can go, for a start. Along with the American spelling. Then we can come for the acronyms.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
In every election we tell people their votes don't count. Just ask the UKIP voters in 2015 who got no MPs for 4 million votes. Or every voter in a safe seat.
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
Clearly totally democratic that the two parties that came 3rd and 4th in the last country wide election close out everybody else. I wouldn’t expect anything else.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Despicable attempt to justify actual death threats. It's one hair's breadth from endorsing them.
I'm really not doing that, Read me more carefully.
Personally, I now wish the referendum had never happened. It has unleashed demons which were best left buried, in Ireland and in Britain. It was tragically mishandled from the get-go. Cameron was obscenely casual
But we are where we are. And I can see awful dangers ahead. The best bet now is we Brexit with a Boris deal, and everyone calms down. Revoke would be explosive, in a terrible terrible way.
Oh, we all got what you were saying, believe me. We can think what we like about it.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
We are all over complicating this election. The Tories will get a small but workable overall majority. Of about 30ish. Why?
Because they are the only ones with half sensible policy.
Labour want to renegotiate their own deal and then have a second referendum : - silly policy as people are sick of this and want to put it to bed, not another divisive referendum
Libdem want to revoke- which goes against the Brithish sense of fair play, and would also be hugely divisive even more than a second referendum, if the atmosphere is bad now, imagine what revoke would do
The Brexit Party want No Deal- which would kill the economy stone dead, Brits ain't voting for that
Tories have the only sensible policy in the circumstances, it respects the results and keeps the economy on track.
Debatable, but if we accept your premise, why a small majority?
Who does everyone want to see as a 'Portillo moment'?
Niche choice in my case, but it's Darren Jones (Lab, Bristol NW). He used to work with Mrs Drutt and he's the most insufferable person either of us have ever met at work. We have about thirty years in law firms between us so this is a high bar.
I can't find him longer than evens and the size of the BF exchange market won't buy a pint.
Always good to see the loss of the thick and arrogant, so IDS.
For the sake of the good people of Aberdeen South, Ross 'Handsy' Thomson.
Swinson getting punted would be highly amusing.
IDS. JRM. Defeat the acronyms initializations!
FTFY if you cannot pronounce the letters it’s not an acronym
Well the initialisations can go, for a start. Along with the American spelling. Then we can come for the acronyms.
Isn’t it initialisms rather than initialisations? #metapedantry
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
The current incarnation of the UVF was formed in 1966.
We are all over complicating this election. The Tories will get a small but workable overall majority. Of about 30ish. Why?
Because they are the only ones with half sensible policy.
Labour want to renegotiate their own deal and then have a second referendum : - silly policy as people are sick of this and want to put it to bed, not another divisive referendum
Libdem want to revoke- which goes against the Brithish sense of fair play, and would also be hugely divisive even more than a second referendum, if the atmosphere is bad now, imagine what revoke would do
The Brexit Party want No Deal- which would kill the economy stone dead, Brits ain't voting for that
Tories have the only sensible policy in the circumstances, it respects the results and keeps the economy on track.
Debatable, but if we accept your premise, why a small majority?
Because they are not in love with the tories or Boris, they just want to get the sh*t done but dont want Tory free reign.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Despicable attempt to justify actual death threats. It's one hair's breadth from endorsing them.
I'm really not doing that, Read me more carefully.
Personally, I now wish the referendum had never happened. It has unleashed demons which were best left buried, in Ireland and in Britain. It was tragically mishandled from the get-go. Cameron was obscenely casual
But we are where we are. And I can see awful dangers ahead. The best bet now is we Brexit with a Boris deal, and everyone calms down. Revoke would be explosive, in a terrible terrible way.
Oh, we all got what you were saying, believe me. We can think what we like about it.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
Our representatives voting in parliament and campaigners calling peacefully for a referendum and people standing for election IS democracy.
Sadly the lesson from history is that when democracy is genuinely taken away, ordinary people tend to acquiesce out of fear, rather than resort to violence to restore it
They are calling to overturn a democratic vote before it has ever been acted upon simply because they don't like the result. That is not democracy. The lesson from history is when you ignore democracy people find other ways to express their opinions.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Balls. And a reminder of your fondness for forms of fascism. Or was that SeanT ?
Nope. Byronic is absolutely right here.
Says the other PB’er with a fondness for calling down the apocalypse...
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
Our representatives voting in parliament and campaigners calling peacefully for a referendum and people standing for election IS democracy.
Sadly the lesson from history is that when democracy is genuinely taken away, ordinary people tend to acquiesce out of fear, rather than resort to violence to restore it
They are calling to overturn a democratic vote before it has ever been acted upon simply because they don't like the result. That is not democracy. The lesson from history is when you ignore democracy people find other ways to express their opinions.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
Ignore the headline and the tactical voting hypotheticals, we have the first proper MRP poll reported in the Guardian. Sample of 46,000 and seat totals of:
Conservative 364 Labour 189 Scottish National 52 Liberal Democrat 23
That's pretty much spot on a conventional forecast with a 35-25-20-10 split (w/ separate SNP adjustment).
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Balls. And a reminder of your fondness for forms of fascism. Or was that SeanT ?
Nope. Byronic is absolutely right here.
Says the other PB’er with a fondness for calling down the apocalypse...
We just sound the warnings. If you are stupid enough to ignore them that is your problem.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
or watch the incredible 'spotlight: a secret history of the troubles' on IPlayer
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
This crap should have been sorted after the last shit show. If we are going to have debates every GE, which seems the case, there needs somebody like the electoral commission to come up with rules / criteria.
Because otherwise we get both politicians and the media arguing among themselves.
I don't believe the Broadcasters have any right to dictate to party leaders to the effect that they must take part in Debates. The leaders are entitled to make their decisions based on their perceived interests. In 2010 those interests happened to coincide - much less so in 2015 and 2017. Johnson and Corbyn have every right to say 'Our Debates will be one to one - or not take place at all'. Moreover, were Swinson to be included , there would be no reason not to include Farage - if the Brexit Party fights acroos the board.
What extent did terror attacks play in the last election result?
The London Bridge attack happened five days before the 2017 general election. I don't think it affected voting much. That is just a factual. Terror attacks have certainly affected elections in other countries and they could conceivably here.
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
Clearly totally democratic that the two parties that came 3rd and 4th in the last country wide election close out everybody else. I wouldn’t expect anything else.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
From The Guardian_ 'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
This crap should have been sorted after the last shit show. If we are going to have debates every GE, which seems the case, there needs somebody like the electoral commission to come up with rules / criteria.
Because otherwise we get both politicians and the media arguing among themselves.
I don't believe the Broadcasters have any right to dictate to party leaders to the effect that they must take part in Debates. The are entitled to make their decisions based on their perceived interests. In 2010 those interests happened to coincide - much less so in 2015 and 2017. Johnson have every right to say 'Our Debates will be one to one - or not take place at all'. Moreover, were Swinson to be included , there would be no reason not to include Farage - if the Brexit Party fights acroos the board.
You would say that. We need an independent tv debate commission pronto.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
In every election we tell people their votes don't count. Just ask the UKIP voters in 2015 who got no MPs for 4 million votes. Or every voter in a safe seat.
Nope. They are voting for an individual constituency MP and their vote in their constituency is just as valid as any one else's and is acted upon accordingly at the end of the process. Which ever MP gets the most votes wins.
Apparently getting the most votes in a referendum doesn't mean the same thing to you pseudo-democrats
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters or push things through letter boxes where as a group of voters that have been unreceptive in the past are now suddenly expected to act like enthused members. I cannot see it working and electoral machines have historically been the difference between winning and losing...
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Balls. And a reminder of your fondness for forms of fascism. Or was that SeanT ?
Nope. Byronic is absolutely right here.
Says the other PB’er with a fondness for calling down the apocalypse...
We just sound the warnings. If you are stupid enough to ignore them that is your problem.
The press reaction is sanguine. Done and dusted. Boris Brexit deal rubber stamped by the electorate. Are they missing a lesson from history? Partys who have been in power ten years rarely put seats on. 1945 for example, party who got the country in trouble years before meant PM who won war got a kicking.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
I know the history well, which is why I want to avoid it.
As I say, if you made me God, I would go back and make the referendum NOT HAPPEN. It's been disastrous in too many ways. Both sides are to blame. It's very hard to argue that Brexit is worth this national anguish.
Bur we are where we are. People were right to point out the very real dangers of No Deal. People are equally right to point out the different dangers of Revoke.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Balls. And a reminder of your fondness for forms of fascism. Or was that SeanT ?
Nope. Byronic is absolutely right here.
Says the other PB’er with a fondness for calling down the apocalypse...
We just sound the warnings. If you are stupid enough to ignore them that is your problem.
The press reaction is sanguine. Done and dusted. Boris Brexit deal rubber stamped by the electorate. Are they missing a lesson from history? Partys who have been in power ten years rarely put seats on. 1945 for example, party who got the country in trouble years before meant PM who won war got a kicking.
I’m not sure 1945 was really about giving the Tories a kicking for events leading up to the war, it was who was best placed to manage the peace.
It’s true parties tend to lose seats after being in power but we are far from normal circumstances right now.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
I know the history well, which is why I want to avoid it.
As I say, if you made me God, I would go back and make the referendum NOT HAPPEN. It's been disastrous in too many ways. Both sides are to blame. It's very hard to argue that Brexit is worth this national anguish.
Bur we are where we are. People were right to point out the very real dangers of No Deal. People are equally right to point out the different dangers of Revoke.
The only danger from revoke is your ramping.
The racist xenophobes will be angry regardless of what happens with Brexit. That’s what they do.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
Defence against drapetomania probably, more than voortrekking. Both the physical-force Protestant ascendancists and the civil rights movement looked for inspriration to players in the southern states of the US at that time.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters or push things through letter boxes where as a group of voters that have been unreceptive in the past are now suddenly expected to act like enthused members. I cannot see it working and electoral machines have historically been the difference between winning and losing...
Conservative and Unionist Party membership is currently 191,000......
The press reaction is sanguine. Done and dusted. Boris Brexit deal rubber stamped by the electorate. Are they missing a lesson from history? Partys who have been in power ten years rarely put seats on. 1945 for example, party who got the country in trouble years before meant PM who won war got a kicking.
1945 was after 14 years of the Tories in power, not 9.
Plus the incumbent party gained seats in 2015 and 1983 and 1959 even though it lost voteshare and gained votes and seats in 1955 and 1966 and October 1974
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
I know the history well, which is why I want to avoid it.
As I say, if you made me God, I would go back and make the referendum NOT HAPPEN. It's been disastrous in too many ways. Both sides are to blame. It's very hard to argue that Brexit is worth this national anguish.
Bur we are where we are. People were right to point out the very real dangers of No Deal. People are equally right to point out the different dangers of Revoke.
You think the Troubles began because Northern Irish catholics "reverted to violence"?
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in ts Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters or push things through letter boxes where as a group of voters that have been unreceptive in the past are now suddenly expected to act like enthused members. I cannot see it working and electoral machines have historically been the difference between winning and losing...
Conservative and Unionist Party membership is currently 191,000......
I found this on the Parliament website: As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members, compared to the Conservatives, who had 180,000 members. The SNP had around 125,500 members (December 2018), the Liberal Democrats 115,000 (August 2019), Green Party 48,500 (July 2019), UKIP 29,000 (April 2019) and Plaid Cymru 10,000 (October 2018). Party membership has risen notably since 2013, both in total and as a percentage of the electorate. This briefing paper will be updated as further information on party membership levels becomes available. https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05125
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
What extent did terror attacks play in the last election result? Madrid bombings week before polling day led to surprise result, so in 2017 we would wonder if there would be a surprise result. And there was?
There were a few PB Tories touching themselves inappropriately immediately after the Manchester Arena bombing, claiming that voters would associate it with Jezza. They must have felt right numpties in retrospect.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters or push things through letter boxes where as a group of voters that have been unreceptive in the past are now suddenly expected to act like enthused members. I cannot see it working and electoral machines have historically been the difference between winning and losing...
That is rubbish, the Tories are holding most of their 2017 vote that is all, all the polls are showing is mainly a Labour to LD swing relative to 2017 which under FPTP means Tory gains from Labour. Tory members will be out to get the Tory vote out with the centre left Remain vote split
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrr votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
I know the history well, which is why I want to avoid it.
As I say, if you made me God, I would go back and make the referendum NOT HAPPEN. It's been disastrous in too many ways. Both sides are to blame. It's very hard to argue that Brexit is worth this national anguish.
Bur we are where we are. People were right to point out the very real dangers of No Deal. People are equally right to point out the different dangers of Revoke.
The only danger from revoke is your ramping.
The racist xenophobes will be angry regardless of what happens with Brexit. That’s what they do.
This is just grotesquely stupid and depressingly complacent.
Do you honestly think you could simply cancel and annul the biggest democratic vote in British history - 17.4m voters for Leave - and the blowback would be.... nothing? No trouble? NO anger?
There would be no ongoing fury? Everyone would just quietly grumble but then accept it? And then they would loyally trot out and vote again in the next election, knowing that the elite might simply cancel their vote if the posh people decided they didn't like it?
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters or push things through letter boxes where as a group of voters that have been unreceptive in the past are now suddenly expected to act like enthused members. I cannot see it working and electoral machines have historically been the difference between winning and losing...
Conservative and Unionist Party membership is currently 191,000......
The press reaction is sanguine. Done and dusted. Boris Brexit deal rubber stamped by the electorate. Are they missing a lesson from history? Partys who have been in power ten years rarely put seats on. 1945 for example, party who got the country in trouble years before meant PM who won war got a kicking.
Parties that have been out of power for 10 years have normally come to their senses and got a electable leader and policies with broad appeal
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
But this is absurd hyperbole. People still have the vote. We're just starting an election campaign.
We're simply working through a difficult constitutional conflict between the mandate of a referendum and the mandate of MPs.
Accusing MPs of ending democracy is a disgraceful attempt to intimidate them into voting the way you want.
You're an apologist for political violence. You're part of this problem.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
Our representatives voting in parliament and campaigners calling peacefully for a referendum and people standing for election IS democracy.
Sadly the lesson from history is that when democracy is genuinely taken away, ordinary people tend to acquiesce out of fear, rather than resort to violence to restore it
They are calling to overturn a democratic vote before it has ever been acted upon simply because they don't like the result. That is not democracy. The lesson from history is when you ignore democracy people find other ways to express their opinions.
Classic fascist apologism.
Fascists are those who want to ignore democracy when it suits them. You are filling those boots admirably around here.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The Conservative party voted en mass to block Scottish Devolution after a referendum that passed by a far larger margin than Brexit.
Do you think they should all have been assaulted by surly Scotsmen?
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters or push things through letter boxes where as a group of voters that have been unreceptive in the past are now suddenly expected to act like enthused members. I cannot see it working and electoral machines have historically been the difference between winning and losing...
That is rubbish, the Tories are holding most of their 2017 vote that is all, all the polls are showing is mainly a Labour to LD swing relative to 2017 which under FPTP means Tory gains from Labour. Tory members will be out to get the Tory vote out with the centre left Remain vote split
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
"Literally"? Those who don't want Revoke shouldn't vote LibDem. I doubt that in the extremely unlikely event of the LibDems wining a seat majority without a majority of the popular vote they actually will Revoke on their first day in office, and in the even less likely event that they do win a majority of the popular vote then they'll have earned the right to. As for Labour, they want to put a concrete plan for Leave to the electorate. That's treating Leave voters with respect. No Remain or PV supporters are saying "shut up". For all the right wing Trumpian scoffing at "whiners", there's far more whingeing from Leavers than from Remainers.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrr votes don't count.
You might want to read something about the history of the Troubles
I know the history well, which is why I want to avoid it.
As I say, if you made me God, I would go back and make the referendum NOT HAPPEN. It's been disastrous in too many ways. Both sides are to blame. It's very hard to argue that Brexit is worth this national anguish.
Bur we are where we are. People were right to point out the very real dangers of No Deal. People are equally right to point out the different dangers of Revoke.
The only danger from revoke is your ramping.
The racist xenophobes will be angry regardless of what happens with Brexit. That’s what they do.
This is just grotesquely stupid and depressingly complacent.
Do you honestly think you could simply cancel and annul the biggest democratic vote in British history - 17.4m voters for Leave - and the blowback would be.... nothing? No trouble? NO anger?
There would be no ongoing fury? Everyone would just quietly grumble but then accept it? And then they would loyally trot out and vote again in the next election, knowing that the elite might simply cancel their vote if the posh people decided they didn't like it?
That's what you think?
There is always ongoing fury. Before it was under the radar because they knew their hatred was not socially acceptable.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
But this is absurd hyperbole. People still have the vote. We're just starting an election campaign.
We're simply working through a difficult constitutional conflict between the mandate of a referendum and the mandate of MPs.
Accusing MPs of ending democracy is a disgraceful attempt to intimidate them into voting the way you want.
You're an apologist for political violence. You're part of this problem.
They were trying to end democracy by ignoring a democratic vote. Deny it all you like but that is a fact.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
Nonono, in political discourse, “East Midlands” means only Mansfield, Broxtowe and Ashfield or whatever it’s called.
Which irks me mightily as an exiled Rutlander.
Is Northampton South-East?
Yes. Used to get 'Network South-East' trains. Same as Peterborough.
So did Hereford, though, and no one would call that South-East.
I’ve sat on an NSE Thames Turbo all the way from Hereford to Oxfordish, with no working toilets, on a Sunday afternoon. A thoroughly dispiriting experience. I doubt even @Sunil_Prasannan would volunteer to do that.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
The IRA were around from 1913
Not just a non sequitur, it's an HYUFD non sequitur.
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
But this is absurd hyperbole. People still have the vote. We're just starting an election campaign.
We're simply working through a difficult constitutional conflict between the mandate of a referendum and the mandate of MPs.
Accusing MPs of ending democracy is a disgraceful attempt to intimidate them into voting the way you want.
You're an apologist for political violence. You're part of this problem.
They were trying to end democracy by ignoring a democratic vote. Deny it all you like but that is a fact.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
If he wins, they'll be willing to do as he says, at least so long as he continues to win (which won’t be long). If he doesn’t win, he is toast.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
The 1983 Tory intake would have been more socially conservative certainly than this one
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The whole point of democracy - votes, referendums, elections - is to take away the anger of war and strife, in the destiny of nations, and turn it into a legal process, with rules and limits, which allow for passionate disagreement but vent the wild anger in a safe way.
The floor of the House of Commons is divided by sword lengths, from the era of duelling.
If you then stand up and say democracy is cancelled, the votes of certain people mean nothing, and must be reversed, well then you are inviting the return of political violence. It is a basic rule of human history. Someone like Soubry has been courting disaster for three years. She needs to stop and see the danger: for all of us,
Despicable attempt to justify actual death threats. It's one hair's breadth from endorsing them.
I'm really not doing that, Read me more carefully.
Personally, I now wish the referendum had never happened. It has unleashed demons which were best left buried, in Ireland and in Britain. It was tragically mishandled from the get-go. Cameron was obscenely casual
But we are where we are. And I can see awful dangers ahead. The best bet now is we Brexit with a Boris deal, and everyone calms down. Revoke would be explosive, in a terrible terrible way.
Oh, we all got what you were saying, believe me. We can think what we like about it.
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Bollox
More than that, this is a post as distasteful as anything a banned poster has posted ☹️
This is ludicrous. This is a grown up site. If we are not allowed to make historical observations then what are we? It is an historical truth that if you take away the democratic option, then people revert to violence, They just DO. How does it help us, telling me to stop saying this?
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
The first violence that took place in The Troubles was from the Loyalist side. What was their excuse?
The IRA were around from 1913
The Irish Volunteers that became the IRA were formed in that year, yes, but Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteers had been formed in 1912. Then we can talk about the Fenians, and so on. But Theuniondivvie is absolutely right that the violent wave of "Troubles" that started in the mid-late 1960s was begun by loyalists. The IRA's border campaign of the late 1950s and early 1960s had been over for years by then.
We need a Royal Commission or Speakers Conference into the potential destruction of representative democracy through the intimidation of MPs.
We are courting disaster by allowing this to continue.
MPs are quitting in fear.
It is unacceptable and very worrying
Another reason not to have an election when day light is in short supply IMO. I have a really bad feeling that someone is going to get attacked as the papers crank up division and hatred. It might not be an MP seeking re-election but a foot soldier who is taken unawares...
I do not think we should be intimidated though
I would not door knock or deliver leaflets if I was paid for any party at the moment!
On a similar subject: Daniel Finkelstein once said of the 1997 election that the Tories had elaborate plans to mobilise Tory voters but no one to do it! I do wonder if the Tories will suffer the same fate in this election. Some hot headed individuals get very worked up about Brexit but do nothing to get the Tories elected. Membership has declined if not collapsed where as Corbyn has Half a million potential members as foot soldiers! Just saying...
Erhhh rather than declining isn't the Tory membership the highest its been in ages (170k or something), while its Labour who have been losing members (albeit still with way more than the Tories)?
I think the Tories were 100k but it might have gone up with a change of leader to be fair. These things are never current, it is always historical and one does have to be careful for misleading statements as they start adding in all manner of membership variants however tenuous. The Tories are basically ignoring a vast chunk of their reliable historical voters for some voters who are not as reliable. There is a difference between a voter and a member and I think this is key, a member might help you canvass voters oe difference between winning and losing...
That is rubbish, the Tories are holding most of their 2017 vote that is all, all the polls are showing is mainly a Labour to LD swing relative to 2017 which under FPTP means Tory gains from Labour. Tory members will be out to get the Tory vote out with the centre left Remain vote split
Sorry, I disagree.
The BBC poll average of Tories 36%, Labour 24%, LDs 18% tells you all you need to know. Indeed I now expect a bigger Labour to Tory swing in London than the North
This is wrong and sad. And it's not all Brexit, a lot of it is just the horrible effect of social media, making everyone angrier. That's what it does
But Remainer MPs who have been trying to overturn the vote have no excuse, they should have expected this. They are literally saying to voters: your vote does not count, you have no say, you should shut up and go away and let me decide what happens to you and your family and your country. You are inferior.
If people say that then they tend to get killed. This is historical fact, not hysteria.
Oh give over. If Leavers had compromised we would have left by now.
The Leave vote enabled the nasty BNP/EDL/UKIP undesirables to come out into the open and sensible people like you and @HYUFD are egging them on as footsoldiers in your culture war.
Give over.
If I was an MP and I stood up and did my obvious best to overturn a democratic vote, then I would expect a violent reaction. I would expect death threats. I would anticipate the need for police protection.
The Conservative party voted en mass to block Scottish Devolution after a referendum that passed by a far larger margin than Brexit.
Do you think they should all have been assaulted by surly Scotsmen?
No, this is bollocks. The vote in favour of devolution in 1979 was about exactly the same as for Brexit but in a much lower turnout.
The difference being he was basing his claims on his own racist views. I am basing my claims on history.
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
As I said below, having our representatives voting on things, peaceful demonstrations, campaigns for further referendums and people advancing their views when standing for election ARE our democratic rights.
Asking the question is only one half of the democratic process. If you then ignore the answer because you don't like it - which is exactly what many MPs have tried to do for the last 3 years - then you are not supporting democracy you are undermining it and denying it.
The next set of Conservative MPs will be further to the right than any set we have ever seen before. If Johnson really is the socially liberal, Tory wet we are told he is, then he will be as isolated in his Parliamentary party as Corbyn is in his.
I don't believe the spin about him being socially liberal. He is instigating the change in the PCP. I don't believe he has any intention of implementing a UK/EU deal either in relation to Brexit and will cause the UK to leave the EU on a No Deal basis. He would not be changing the PCP composition as he has been if this was not really his intention..
She cites personal abuse and the effect on her family.
Another Nottingham(ish) MP stands down
Loughborough is in Leicestershire.
Hence why I said ish. It’s very close to Nottingham.
Well, the whole of the East Midlands is not that big, so everything can be described as Nottingham(ish).
Derby is Nottingham(ish), Lincoln is Nottingham(ish). Leicester is Nottingham(ish).
But, if I was a Londoner, I'd try and get these things right.
I‘m originally from Nottingham you plum. I know where Loughborough is.
Well, then you can describe it correctly as in Leicestershire.
I’ll describe it as I like. Nowhere did I deny it was in Leicestershire. E.g. Long Eaton is in Derbyshire but still Nottingham(ish). For crying out loud man.
Comments
Let's look at the Irish Troubles, a case which Remainers often pray in aid, when THEY want to subtly threaten violence.
Why did the Troubles begin? Because northern Irish Catholics felt disenfranchised (because they were) and because they felt the system actively devalued their vote and their cause (which it did). So they reverted to violence.
Why should Britain be different, if we simply revoke the referendum, as per Lib Dem policy, and say to 17.4 million voters: your votes don't count.
Local rivalries run deep in the East Midlands. I doubt if wondering around Loughborough and saying it is in Nottinghamshire will win you any friends.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask for some geographical accuracy.
'The Liberal Democrat leader, Jo Swinson, faces being cut out of televised leadership debates during the general election campaign, as broadcasters begin torturous negotiations over who gets to show the nation’s political leaders arguing with each other on stage.
While the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky News are all vying for the position, Swinson’s place in any forthcoming debate is less than assured. The Tories are thought to prefer simple one-on-one debates between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn in a bid to reduce the election to a simple choice between the two. Labour have adopted a similar stance amid fears they could lose pro-remain votes to the Lib Dems due to the party’s pledge to revoke Brexit'
Sadly the lesson from history is that when democracy is genuinely taken away, ordinary people tend to acquiesce out of fear, rather than resort to violence to restore it
Because otherwise we get both politicians and the media arguing among themselves.
Personally, I now wish the referendum had never happened. It has unleashed demons which were best left buried, in Ireland and in Britain. It was tragically mishandled from the get-go. Cameron was obscenely casual
But we are where we are. And I can see awful dangers ahead. The best bet now is we Brexit with a Boris deal, and everyone calms down. Revoke would be explosive, in a terrible terrible way.
YouGov pioneered this approach last time.
Madrid bombings week before polling day led to surprise result, so in 2017 we would wonder if there would be a surprise result. And there was?
Because they are the only ones with half sensible policy.
Labour want to renegotiate their own deal and then have a second referendum : - silly policy as people are sick of this and want to put it to bed, not another divisive referendum, also why Labour get a better deal than Corbyn?
Libdem want to revoke- which goes against the Brithish sense of fair play, and would also be hugely divisive even more than a second referendum, if the atmosphere is bad now, imagine what revoke would do
The Brexit Party want No Deal- which would kill the economy stone dead, Brits ain't voting for that
Tories have the only sensible policy in the circumstances, it respects the result and keeps the economy on track.
Apparently getting the most votes in a referendum doesn't mean the same thing to you pseudo-democrats
Are they missing a lesson from history? Partys who have been in power ten years rarely put seats on. 1945 for example, party who got the country in trouble years before meant PM who won war got a kicking.
As I say, if you made me God, I would go back and make the referendum NOT HAPPEN. It's been disastrous in too many ways. Both sides are to blame. It's very hard to argue that Brexit is worth this national anguish.
Bur we are where we are. People were right to point out the very real dangers of No Deal. People are equally right to point out the different dangers of Revoke.
But ouch - what a game to miss!
It’s true parties tend to lose seats after being in power but we are far from normal circumstances right now.
The racist xenophobes will be angry regardless of what happens with Brexit. That’s what they do.
Plus the incumbent party gained seats in 2015 and 1983 and 1959 even though it lost voteshare and gained votes and seats in 1955 and 1966 and October 1974
Their argument is we're bigger.
It is no different to the Labour and Tory parties argument for the TV debates. We're bigger.
Out of interest, are the LibDems willing to have all the other small parties in the debates?
Or is it just the LibDems who will be joining Tory and Labour in the TV debates?
I found this on the Parliament website:
As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members, compared to the Conservatives, who had 180,000 members. The SNP had around 125,500 members (December 2018), the Liberal Democrats 115,000 (August 2019), Green Party 48,500 (July 2019), UKIP 29,000 (April 2019) and Plaid Cymru 10,000 (October 2018). Party membership has risen notably since 2013, both in total and as a percentage of the electorate. This briefing paper will be updated as further information on party membership levels becomes available.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05125
Perhaps you think Churchill was wrong making the warnings he did about Germany in the 1930s? Or you think he really wanted a war?
Stating the obvious dangers about idiotic behaviour is not the same as encouraging that behaviour. Making that claim is just a tactic used by idiots who refuse to accept they are doing a very stupid thing.
If you deny democratic rights to people then those people will find other ways to express their anger and frustration.
Do you honestly think you could simply cancel and annul the biggest democratic vote in British history - 17.4m voters for Leave - and the blowback would be.... nothing? No trouble? NO anger?
There would be no ongoing fury? Everyone would just quietly grumble but then accept it? And then they would loyally trot out and vote again in the next election, knowing that the elite might simply cancel their vote if the posh people decided they didn't like it?
That's what you think?
Thanks for the tip - watching it now
We're simply working through a difficult constitutional conflict between the mandate of a referendum and the mandate of MPs.
Accusing MPs of ending democracy is a disgraceful attempt to intimidate them into voting the way you want.
You're an apologist for political violence. You're part of this problem.
Do you think they should all have been assaulted by surly Scotsmen?
I’ve sat on an NSE Thames Turbo all the way from Hereford to Oxfordish, with no working toilets, on a Sunday afternoon. A thoroughly dispiriting experience. I doubt even @Sunil_Prasannan would volunteer to do that.
Leicester is closer.