An election on 5 Dec will be as popular as a fart at a cocktail party. It’s going to be next year isn’t it?
Apparently >30% of Brits get winter depression. Does that mainly mean a) they're less motivated to vote or b) they're more likely to support the Monster Raving Loony Party?
Don't forget the 48% who are going to get Brexit depression when it happens....
There seems to be some genuine uncertainty about what exactly the extra administrative burden for GB-NI trade would be under the Boris deal. From the Guardian live blog:
Seamus Leheny from the Freight Transport Association called on the government to explain why the exit declarations [for NI to GB trade] were part of the Brexit deal, as he claimed the EU had not insisted on the measure. Leheny said transport companies in Northern Ireland would now face an added administration cost.
"This is another layer of administration and red tape which we were promised Brexit would remove. One of the reasons for Brexit was because of red tape, but all we are seeing for the last two and half years is the likelihood of more and more red tape.
I think everyone was caught off guard by this because the EU weren’t pressing for this to be implemented.
When myself and other business groups met the EU about a year and a half ago, it was one of the things the EU said OK, yes we can row back on, as part of ensuring frictionless trade from NI to GB.
So, it’s something the UK government has decided to implement, if it does. What it is, is an unwelcome administration burden on transport providers."
This is the kind of thing which really should be pinned down before MPs vote on the deal.
Wasn’t sending the letter supposed to humiliate Boris?
How do you humiliate someone without shame? It is not possible.
The forcing him to extend only worked when he didn't have a deal. Now he has pulled the rabbit out the hat, Leavers are thinking "What else more is he supposed to do? He has got a deal against all odds, but MPs are STILL sabotaging him..."
Remainers are thinking what bit of May's deal was too extreme come back with something softer the PM didn't get.
Makes sense. Its taking too much piss. Brexit looking shaky, has anyone who intimated they would back the deal changed their tune since publication of the bill? Thinking of labour and ex tories.
Just for the record - I have read the entire transcripts of the Nuremburg War Trials available on the Internet - something which took me two years to complete. I have twice visited Dachau and Belsen - in 1996 & 2017 - and have also been to Thereisenstadt and Mauthausen. Nobody can fail to be deeply moved by all those sites - and to be appalled at the depravity of what occurred there. I have not been a Labour Party member for 23 years , but two years ago I did join the Jewish Labour Movement as an act of solidarity in support of those seeking to combat anti-semitism. As a result, I am not inclined to accept lectures on the subject from others.
That's ridiculous. If anything, a foolish attempt to change the law by removing worker rights from British people would cause a big Labour majority. That would end up with worker protections being strengthened.
The 1979-97 Tory government spent twenty years removing workers' rights, sometimes it was popular with voters at large, sometimes unpopular, but they had no problem doing it. They can always spin it as creating jobs or protecting consumers, or even giving people more choice. Plus bear in mind that a lot of voters, especially a lot of Tory voters, aren't actually workers. Basically, any worker who is looking to the voters to protect their rights is barking up the wrong tree. On a more general point, a lot of people on here think that everything should be up for political choice at the whim of a government that has maybe 35% of the vote. This is patently nonsense. People should have rights that can only be removed via a much higher threshold of consent. For me the EU was a very useful mechanism for protecting those rights. In its absence I think we should be looking to adopt a written constitution and super majority requirements for challenging fundamental rights including rights at work.
Wasn’t sending the letter supposed to humiliate Boris?
How do you humiliate someone without shame? It is not possible.
The forcing him to extend only worked when he didn't have a deal. Now he has pulled the rabbit out the hat, Leavers are thinking "What else more is he supposed to do? He has got a deal against all odds, but MPs are STILL sabotaging him..."
Remainers are thinking what bit of May's deal was too extreme come back with something softer the PM didn't get.
The fact that Remainers May's Deal was denounced as far too soft!!
What part of rejecting a Remainers deal made you think a true Leaver was going to bring back something softer?
Makes sense. Its taking too much piss. Brexit looking shaky, has anyone who intimated they would back the deal changed their tune since publication of the bill? Thinking of labour and ex tories.
A couple of whipless Tories have said Cummings needs to back down a bit, and Redwood is a bit grumpy.
Don't think any of the Lab leavers who have said they'd vote for have backed down, although there are probably 5 or 6 undeclared in that group that could have changed their minds without saying anything in public.
There’s simply no justification for the Hitler stuff. And it’s completely counterproductive to your side of the argument.
With respect, I have not accused anyone of being a Nazi! People on here frequently compare Corbyn and Mcdonell to Lenin & Trotsky with very few objecting. I can assure you that were I an MP , I would happily get up in the Chamber and make the comparison with the Enabling Act.
Justin.
With respect you do need to tone down the references to Hitler
You are causing offence and I hope the moderators will look into your posts if you continue to disregard the consensus on here
Big G, If I had accused you - or anyone else- of being a Nazi, I could understand the offence caused , but I have done no such thing.
No comment.
Would you like to see the Moderators intervene when a comment is next made here associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trosky? There is much humbug and hypocrisy around.
Please don't take this as general support, because I don't like what you're up to with all this Hitler stuff, but on this point you're spot on. This place is crawling with hypocrisy.
Few people in society happily associate with Hitler the way they do Lenin and trotsky. That the latter two get their nasty parts ignored too often doesnt change that they are not as outageous as figures to be compared to as Hitler
The one thing we will know for certain in an hour or so is each mps vote on the most important brexit decision since the referendum and the subject of thousands of GE leaflets
Makes sense. Its taking too much piss. Brexit looking shaky, has anyone who intimated they would back the deal changed their tune since publication of the bill? Thinking of labour and ex tories.
Some of the Labour Leave MPs like Nandy, De Piero and Snell are saying that they'll vote for the Second Reading tonight, but reserve the right to vote against the Third Reading if they don't get their amendments passed.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
That's ridiculous. If anything, a foolish attempt to change the law by removing worker rights from British people would cause a big Labour majority. That would end up with worker protections being strengthened.
The 1979-97 Tory government spent twenty years removing workers' rights, sometimes it was popular with voters at large, sometimes unpopular, but they had no problem doing it. They can always spin it as creating jobs or protecting consumers, or even giving people more choice. Plus bear in mind that a lot of voters, especially a lot of Tory voters, aren't actually workers. Basically, any worker who is looking to the voters to protect their rights is barking up the wrong tree. On a more general point, a lot of people on here think that everything should be up for political choice at the whim of a government that has maybe 35% of the vote. This is patently nonsense. People should have rights that can only be removed via a much higher threshold of consent. For me the EU was a very useful mechanism for protecting those rights. In its absence I think we should be looking to adopt a written constitution and super majority requirements for challenging fundamental rights including rights at work.
Supermajorities are clearly undemocratic. But you're right about the vulnerability of any right to a 35% majority government. The solution is probably electoral reform. But a written constitution with certain rights written in could be a goer. The stipulation I'd say is that the constitution is amendable through a referendum with an ordinary majority.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
Would you like to see the Moderators intervene when a comment is next made here associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trosky? There is much humbug and hypocrisy around.
Why on earth could anyone possibly object to associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trotsky, since they themselves are very happy with such an association?
Makes sense. Its taking too much piss. Brexit looking shaky, has anyone who intimated they would back the deal changed their tune since publication of the bill? Thinking of labour and ex tories.
Some of the Labour Leave MPs like Nandy, De Piero and Snell are saying that they'll vote for the Second Reading tonight, but reserve the right to vote against the Third Reading if they don't get their amendments passed.
I forget if they backed Letwin. Gov needs all those who rejected Letwin plus a few more - they have Letwin himself, maybe, but wouldnt be comfortable with the others.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
Wasn’t sending the letter supposed to humiliate Boris?
How do you humiliate someone without shame? It is not possible.
The forcing him to extend only worked when he didn't have a deal. Now he has pulled the rabbit out the hat, Leavers are thinking "What else more is he supposed to do? He has got a deal against all odds, but MPs are STILL sabotaging him..."
Remainers are thinking what bit of May's deal was too extreme come back with something softer the PM didn't get.
Do we need to rearrange the words in that sentence to get at its meaning?
Would you like to see the Moderators intervene when a comment is next made here associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trosky? There is much humbug and hypocrisy around.
Why on earth could anyone possibly object to associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trotsky, since they themselves are very happy with such an association?
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
You see it as unlikely the composition would be more favourable to remain and may be right, but for them better to take that gamble than let Brexit happen now.
Got a horrible feeling we might get caught in a doom loop here.
Passes at 2nd reading (House agrees on Brexit in principle), CU is added to Bill at Committee stage (making it basically May’s Deal again, with a permanent backstop) leading to it failing at 3rd reading as the ERG pull support.
Rinse and re-fucking-peat.
Can the Govt. still pull during Committee stage and go for an election?
Well, only if the opposition cooperates.
Or Boris has to risk engineering a VoNC which might not time out with an election the way he’d like it to, particularly now because the DUP wouldn’t necessarily move to stop Corbyn.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
Seriously?
The pro-Johnson papers will be hailing him as a national hero for getting Brexit done and the euphoria will mean the "domestic agenda" won't get a hearing and your man Boris will win a landslide.
Makes sense. Its taking too much piss. Brexit looking shaky, has anyone who intimated they would back the deal changed their tune since publication of the bill? Thinking of labour and ex tories.
Some of the Labour Leave MPs like Nandy, De Piero and Snell are saying that they'll vote for the Second Reading tonight, but reserve the right to vote against the Third Reading if they don't get their amendments passed.
I forget if they backed Letwin. Gov needs all those who rejected Letwin plus a few more - they have Letwin himself, maybe, but wouldnt be comfortable with the others.
Those three didn't vote for Letwin.
The Second Reading tonight is guaranteed to pass because there'll be quite a few Labour MPs who vote for it because it doesn't tie their hands (it'll be their "virtue-signalling" vote to constituents that they'll claim proves they were willing, in principle, to vote for Brexit). But I don't think the programme motion will get (m)any more Labour votes than Letwin did, meaning the Oct 31st deadline is kaput.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
The SNP and Lib Dem’s would quite happily pick at Labour’s corpse right now.
Just for the record - I have read the entire transcripts of the Nuremburg War Trials available on the Internet - something which took me two years to complete. I have twice visited Dachau and Belsen - in 1996 & 2017 - and have also been to Thereisenstadt and Mauthausen. Nobody can fail to be deeply moved by all those sites - and to be appalled at the depravity of what occurred there. I have not been a Labour Party member for 23 years , but two years ago I did join the Jewish Labour Movement as an act of solidarity in support of those seeking to combat anti-semitism. As a result, I am not inclined to accept lectures on the subject from others.
I don’t think anyone is questioning your knowledge of or seeking to lecture you on the Nazi Genocide. What many object to is the constant analogy of that topic to current events, which they consider to be inappropriate and upsetting. There are other historical parallels out there if you look hard enough.
Just for the record - I have read the entire transcripts of the Nuremburg War Trials available on the Internet - something which took me two years to complete. I have twice visited Dachau and Belsen - in 1996 & 2017 - and have also been to Thereisenstadt and Mauthausen. Nobody can fail to be deeply moved by all those sites - and to be appalled at the depravity of what occurred there. I have not been a Labour Party member for 23 years , but two years ago I did join the Jewish Labour Movement as an act of solidarity in support of those seeking to combat anti-semitism. As a result, I am not inclined to accept lectures on the subject from others.
That is totally fair enough.
But you can see how the references might cause offence and certainly don't lend weight to your arguments.
And just out of interest not being snarky why the f&£k did you read the Nuremberg trials transcripts?
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
What are the opposition going to say if there is no "no deal" excuse anymore?
Would you like to see the Moderators intervene when a comment is next made here associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trosky? There is much humbug and hypocrisy around.
Why on earth could anyone possibly object to associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trotsky, since they themselves are very happy with such an association?
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
The SNP and Lib Dem’s would quite happily pick at Labour’s corpse right now.
Lib Dems aren't in favour of an election right now.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
There’s this thing called the House of Lords.
Never heard of it. Nor have the government which is why it will be no problem.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
What are the opposition going to say if there is no "no deal" excuse anymore?
Considering the public don’t want an election; who cares?
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
There’s this thing called the House of Lords.
The crossbenchers are really going to get in the way of the desire of the Govt. plus other parties?
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
The SNP and Lib Dem’s would quite happily pick at Labour’s corpse right now.
Lib Dems aren't in favour of an election right now.
They really need one before any Brexit. Apart from not being certifiable nut-jobs Brexit is their only strong point of difference.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
What are the opposition going to say if there is no "no deal" excuse anymore?
Turkeys don’t need an excuse not to vote for Christmas. Neither do they worry about looking scared. No rational person would, looking at the polls, call an election when they are doing so badly. The turkeys will hope that something comes up in the future. If you’re going to get cooked anyway why not postpone the inevitable.
The House was going to vote for impeachment anyway as the Democrats control it but the Senate is still Republican controlled and will still likely block it
Would you like to see the Moderators intervene when a comment is next made here associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trosky? There is much humbug and hypocrisy around.
Why on earth could anyone possibly object to associating Corbyn or McDonnell with Lenin and Trotsky, since they themselves are very happy with such an association?
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
The SNP aren't going to vote for a General election the timing of which is controlled by the Toriesm.
That's ridiculous. If anything, a foolish attempt to change the law by removing worker rights from British people would cause a big Labour majority. That would end up with worker protections being strengthened.
The 1979-97 Tory government spent twenty years removing workers' rights, sometimes it was popular with voters at large, sometimes unpopular, but they had no problem doing it. They can always spin it as creating jobs or protecting consumers, or even giving people more choice. Plus bear in mind that a lot of voters, especially a lot of Tory voters, aren't actually workers. Basically, any worker who is looking to the voters to protect their rights is barking up the wrong tree. On a more general point, a lot of people on here think that everything should be up for political choice at the whim of a government that has maybe 35% of the vote. This is patently nonsense. People should have rights that can only be removed via a much higher threshold of consent. For me the EU was a very useful mechanism for protecting those rights. In its absence I think we should be looking to adopt a written constitution and super majority requirements for challenging fundamental rights including rights at work.
Ok team 10 minutes to suggest a good film for me to watch tonight. Minus points for anyone who suggests BBC Parliament.
Edit: have I ever said one of my favourite films is Four Lions...
12 Angry Men?
Great shout. A film worth watching several times.
It does always exasperate me though that the one person who had done the job properly and considered the evidence carefully is shown as a stubborn holdout rather than as the exemplar.
The one I come away with most respect for is the older one who believed firmly as a point of principle that if somebody wanted to talk the matter through he should be allowed to.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
The SNP aren't going to vote for a General election the timing of which is controlled by the Toriesm.
Stop hyperventilating
Stephen Gethins said on 5 live this afternoon they would endorse Boris GE request as long as the extension was long enough to hold a GE
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority.....
You keep saying that and you keep ignoring the simple fact that the govt lacks a majority by quite a margin.
Ok team 10 minutes to suggest a good film for me to watch tonight. Minus points for anyone who suggests BBC Parliament.
Edit: have I ever said one of my favourite films is Four Lions...
12 Angry Men?
Great shout. A film worth watching several times.
It does always exasperate me though that the one person who had done the job properly and considered the evidence carefully is shown as a stubborn holdout rather than as the exemplar.
Do you mean the guy with the glasses? He comes out of it pretty well I think.
Enjoying reading the threads this evening. I'm out of action with a stomach bug and after watching hours of Netflix, PB is as ever a healthy tonic.
How close do we think programme motion is going to be?
Likely close enough that the DUP votes will be crucial, which is bad for the government.
I struggle to see why enough Ex-cons would not vote it down though to see it fail. They may accept Brexit even if Labour and co do not, but they have genuine concerns about scrutiny.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
What are the opposition going to say if there is no "no deal" excuse anymore?
Turkeys don’t need an excuse not to vote for Christmas. Neither do they worry about looking scared. No rational person would, looking at the polls, call an election when they are doing so badly. The turkeys will hope that something comes up in the future. If you’re going to get cooked anyway why not postpone the inevitable.
Politicians aren't turkeys though. They do need to speak. And Labour aren't acting in isolation. The SNP and LDs will look at the polls and think "game on we will gain seats". If Labour are cowards they would be humiliated not just by the Tories but by the SNP and Lib Dems.
If Labour don't stand for having an election to get rid of the Tories then what do they stand for?
Got a horrible feeling we might get caught in a doom loop here.
Passes at 2nd reading (House agrees on Brexit in principle), CU is added to Bill at Committee stage (making it basically May’s Deal again, with a permanent backstop) leading to it failing at 3rd reading as the ERG pull support.
People only make compromises when there is a deadline approaching. The second the 31/10 becomes flexible everyone will get on their high horses and stop compromising and demand everyone else agrees with them just as everyone did under May.
This is fundamentally untrue. People make compromises and reach agreements when it is mutually beneficial to do so. Johnson compromised before a deadline because he is desperate to do Brexit, so it was beneficial for him to move to get this deal agreed. It was beneficial to the EU because it was from their point of view it is much better than what they had offered TM.
When there is a deadline approaching people start to make bad decisions. There is a lot of pressure to meet the deadline and not enough time to examine the implicatons of these "compromises".
The EU was adamant with TM there could be no unilateral exit. There is a unilateral exit now. The EU has compromised.
There isn't a unilateral exit - it requires a majority of NI votes and that will not occur. Unionists only have 40 of the 90 seats and that percentage is likely to drop over time not increase
Especially as the ties to GB will drop significantly over time - the VAT changes and paperwork alone will make buying things from Northern Ireland more of a hassle.
That's democracy. If these arrangements are bad for NI then people opposing them can seek to get 46 seats plus.
If they don't get 46 seats or more that is the choice of the voters of NI. I have no wish to impose upon or override the voters of NI, I respect them enough to make the decision theirs. This is their future, they can decide - unilaterally.
So you would apply that to Scotland (and Wales, if they want)?
And London please!
Scotland, Wales and London are not being put inside some EU laws, so there is nothing of a scale needed to consent to.
If Scotland and Wales wish to rejoin the EU they should hold a referendum on exiting the UK then begin negotiations on accession to the EU.
But if it is good enough for NI why not us Scots? We DID vote against Brexit, you know.
As Scotland has no history of terrorist violence unlike Northern Ireland and as Scotland does not border another EU nation like Northern Ireland either
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
What are the opposition going to say if there is no "no deal" excuse anymore?
Turkeys don’t need an excuse not to vote for Christmas. Neither do they worry about looking scared. No rational person would, looking at the polls, call an election when they are doing so badly. The turkeys will hope that something comes up in the future. If you’re going to get cooked anyway why not postpone the inevitable.
Politicians aren't turkeys though. They do need to speak. And Labour aren't acting in isolation. The SNP and LDs will look at the polls and think "game on we will gain seats". If Labour are cowards they would be humiliated not just by the Tories but by the SNP and Lib Dems.
If Labour don't stand for having an election to get rid of the Tories then what do they stand for?
The talk of SNP involvement surprises me a bit given the danger of the SNP being seen to be allied with the Tories. Labour are still going on about the fall of the Callaghan government 39 years ago!! - or at leastd they still think it is a good attack line. On the other hand , if there aren't many Labour MPs left, and if the LDs are also in on it ...
And of course it's one thing to bring down a Labour regime, but another to bring down a Tory one.
People only make compromises when there is a deadline approaching. The second the 31/10 becomes flexible everyone will get on their high horses and stop compromising and demand everyone else agrees with them just as everyone did under May.
This is fundamentally untrue. People make compromises and reach agreements when it is mutually beneficial to do so. Johnson compromised before a deadline because he is desperate to do Brexit, so it was beneficial for him to move to get this deal agreed. It was beneficial to the EU because it was from their point of view it is much better than what they had offered TM.
When there is a deadline approaching people start to make bad decisions. There is a lot of pressure to meet the deadline and not enough time to examine the implicatons of these "compromises".
The EU was adamant with TM there could be no unilateral exit. There is a unilateral exit now. The EU has compromised.
There isn't a unilateral exit - it requires a majority of NI votes and that will not occur. Unionists only have 40 of the 90 seats and that percentage is likely to drop over time not increase
Especially as the ties to GB will drop significantly over time - the VAT changes and paperwork alone will make buying things from Northern Ireland more of a hassle.
That's democracy. If these arrangements are bad for NI then people opposing them can seek to get 46 seats plus.
If they don't get 46 seats or more that is the choice of the voters of NI. I have no wish to impose upon or override the voters of NI, I respect them enough to make the decision theirs. This is their future, they can decide - unilaterally.
So you would apply that to Scotland (and Wales, if they want)?
And London please!
Scotland, Wales and London are not being put inside some EU laws, so there is nothing of a scale needed to consent to.
If Scotland and Wales wish to rejoin the EU they should hold a referendum on exiting the UK then begin negotiations on accession to the EU.
But if it is good enough for NI why not us Scots? We DID vote against Brexit, you know.
As Scotland has no history of terrorist violence unlike Northern Ireland and as Scotland does not border another EU nation like Northern Ireland either
Er, England is still in the EU. [edited to remove minor but thoughtless discourtesy]
and it seems the best estimate for the gov. Be amazed if programme motion passes, most Lab rebels don't have the balls to make an actual decision.
The program motion is an awkward one. Were things to go disasterously wrong could you legitimately say that 3 days was enough to time scrutinise the bill.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
But the Govt. and the SNP can sideline the FTPA with a simple majority..... LibDems probably up for it too.
The SNP aren't going to vote for a General election the timing of which is controlled by the Toriesm.
Stop hyperventilating
Stephen Gethins said on 5 live this afternoon they would endorse Boris GE request as long as the extension was long enough to hold a GE
Interesting. Johnson is reported to be seeking a GE if the extension is more than 10 days. The SNP will seek a general election provided the extension is not a short one. They appear to share very similar positions.
If a motion for a GE gained support of at least 1/2 but less than 2/3rds of MPs, the next step could be motion of no confidence in the government tabled by the SNP, for which the Government if necessary makes available parliamentary time if not otherwise allowed by the Speaker.
There has to be a point where remainer MPs realise they've given overturning the result a good go but the game's up.
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
A GE is not in the government’s gift.
I'm just amazed people seem to have forgotten what happened literally SIX WEEKS AGO, the last time the government tried to "go for an election".
What are the opposition going to say if there is no "no deal" excuse anymore?
Turkeys don’t need an excuse not to vote for Christmas. Neither do they worry about looking scared. No rational person would, looking at the polls, call an election when they are doing so badly. The turkeys will hope that something comes up in the future. If you’re going to get cooked anyway why not postpone the inevitable.
Politicians aren't turkeys though. They do need to speak. And Labour aren't acting in isolation. The SNP and LDs will look at the polls and think "game on we will gain seats". If Labour are cowards they would be humiliated not just by the Tories but by the SNP and Lib Dems.
If Labour don't stand for having an election to get rid of the Tories then what do they stand for?
They stand for getting rid of the Tories at the first available opportunity. However, the opportunity is not currently available. Why risk giving the Tories another 5 years when for the sake of a few months or even a couple of years they might win? Why should they give battle at a time of their opponent’s choosing when they know they will be humiliated? Better to wait until a time they have the possibility of victory or, at least, there is at least a marginal uptick in the polls. That day may never come before 2022 - but no one Should fight a battle they know they will lose. Wait for the opportunity. The “coward” line is just Tory baiting.
People only make compromises when there is a deadline approaching. The second the 31/10 becomes flexible everyone will get on their high horses and stop compromising and demand everyone else agrees with them just as everyone did under May.
This is fundamentally untrue. People make compromises and reach agreements when it is mutually beneficial to do so. Johnson compromised before a deadline because he is desperate to do Brexit, so it was beneficial for him to move to get this deal agreed. It was beneficial to the EU because it was from their point of view it is much better than what they had offered TM.
When there is a deadline approaching people start to make bad decisions. There is a lot of pressure to meet the deadline and not enough time to examine the implicatons of these "compromises".
The EU was adamant with TM there could be no unilateral exit. There is a unilateral exit now. The EU has compromised.
There isn't a unilateral exit - it requires a majority of NI votes and that will not occur. Unionists only have 40 of the 90 seats and that percentage is likely to drop over time not increase
Especially as the ties to GB will drop significantly over time - the VAT changes and paperwork alone will make buying things from Northern Ireland more of a hassle.
That's democracy. If these arrangements are bad for NI then rally.
So you would apply that to Scotland (and Wales, if they want)?
And London please!
Scotland, Wales and London are not being put inside some EU laws, so there is nothing of a scale needed to consent to.
If Scotland and Wales wish to rejoin the EU they should hold a referendum on exiting the UK then begin negotiations on accession to the EU.
But if it is good enough for NI why not us Scots? We DID vote against Brexit, you know.
As Scotland has no history of terrorist violence unlike Northern Ireland and as Scotland does not border another EU nation like Northern Ireland either
Er, England is still in the EU. [edited to remove minor but thoughtless discourtesy]
As is Scotland and Scotland will leave the EU at the same time as England while the Republic of Ireland still stays in the EU
Comments
Seamus Leheny from the Freight Transport Association called on the government to explain why the exit declarations [for NI to GB trade] were part of the Brexit deal, as he claimed the EU had not insisted on the measure. Leheny said transport companies in Northern Ireland would now face an added administration cost.
"This is another layer of administration and red tape which we were promised Brexit would remove. One of the reasons for Brexit was because of red tape, but all we are seeing for the last two and half years is the likelihood of more and more red tape.
I think everyone was caught off guard by this because the EU weren’t pressing for this to be implemented.
When myself and other business groups met the EU about a year and a half ago, it was one of the things the EU said OK, yes we can row back on, as part of ensuring frictionless trade from NI to GB.
So, it’s something the UK government has decided to implement, if it does. What it is, is an unwelcome administration burden on transport providers."
This is the kind of thing which really should be pinned down before MPs vote on the deal.
I have twice visited Dachau and Belsen - in 1996 & 2017 - and have also been to Thereisenstadt and Mauthausen. Nobody can fail to be deeply moved by all those sites - and to be appalled at the depravity of what occurred there.
I have not been a Labour Party member for 23 years , but two years ago I did join the Jewish Labour Movement as an act of solidarity in support of those seeking to combat anti-semitism. As a result, I am not inclined to accept lectures on the subject from others.
On a more general point, a lot of people on here think that everything should be up for political choice at the whim of a government that has maybe 35% of the vote. This is patently nonsense. People should have rights that can only be removed via a much higher threshold of consent. For me the EU was a very useful mechanism for protecting those rights. In its absence I think we should be looking to adopt a written constitution and super majority requirements for challenging fundamental rights including rights at work.
What part of rejecting a Remainers deal made you think a true Leaver was going to bring back something softer?
Don't think any of the Lab leavers who have said they'd vote for have backed down, although there are probably 5 or 6 undeclared in that group that could have changed their minds without saying anything in public.
The numbers still seem pretty solid, tbh.
https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1186628012659429388
If the government pulls the bill and we have a GE then in my view it is very unlikely the composition of the next parliament is going to be as favourable to remainers as this one.
They could vote the deal through and go in to an election on a domestic agenda that actually matters.
I'd say possibly and no.
We've laughed at the plausibility of a 'Rebel Alliance' government earlier.
Or Boris has to risk engineering a VoNC which might not time out with an election the way he’d like it to, particularly now because the DUP wouldn’t necessarily move to stop Corbyn.
The pro-Johnson papers will be hailing him as a national hero for getting Brexit done and the euphoria will mean the "domestic agenda" won't get a hearing and your man Boris will win a landslide.
Nice try.
The Second Reading tonight is guaranteed to pass because there'll be quite a few Labour MPs who vote for it because it doesn't tie their hands (it'll be their "virtue-signalling" vote to constituents that they'll claim proves they were willing, in principle, to vote for Brexit). But I don't think the programme motion will get (m)any more Labour votes than Letwin did, meaning the Oct 31st deadline is kaput.
But you can see how the references might cause offence and certainly don't lend weight to your arguments.
And just out of interest not being snarky why the f&£k did you read the Nuremberg trials transcripts?
Noooo (no). No can do.
I can’t vote for that.
Edit: have I ever said one of my favourite films is Four Lions...
Nah....
https://twitter.com/benyc/status/1186690494694383622?s=19
This dude was against impeachment.
Its happening.
Chic-flick - Sleepless in Seattle
Thriller - Hunt for Red October or possibly Jack Reacher
I suppose it depends what you are in the mood for.
Stop hyperventilating
The first party to promise to abolish them would get a 10% boost in the polls.
The one I come away with most respect for is the older one who believed firmly as a point of principle that if somebody wanted to talk the matter through he should be allowed to.
How close do we think programme motion is going to be?
Get your tapwater tested. There must be some hallucinogens in it....
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1186673512783716357
If you can find it online, try The Fisher King - Jeff Bridges and Robin Williams
Foreign movie (very hard to find online) - Raise the Red Lantern, but make sure it has subtitles. Great cinematography.
I struggle to see why enough Ex-cons would not vote it down though to see it fail. They may accept Brexit even if Labour and co do not, but they have genuine concerns about scrutiny.
If Labour don't stand for having an election to get rid of the Tories then what do they stand for?
And of course it's one thing to bring down a Labour regime, but another to bring down a Tory one.
https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1186704139557965824
Thanks all enjoy the evening
If a motion for a GE gained support of at least 1/2 but less than 2/3rds of MPs, the next step could be motion of no confidence in the government tabled by the SNP, for which the Government if necessary makes available parliamentary time if not otherwise allowed by the Speaker.
Local Hero.
Stephen Kinnock would fit in well
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1186706729301663745