I would be very surprised if given the DUP's careful language that a deal will fall through now over some VAT issues. Seems to be just a bit of wiggling is required and we'll have something to vote on in parliament. It's telling that those willing to not want a deal to surface are almost certainly those who profit from Brexit dragging on for another 3 yerars.
As long as the EU (and Ireland) are willing to make yet another concession to the DUP, which they may be unwilling to do.
Who profits for another 3 years of limbo?
The Lib Dems, Farage, the SNP, various commentators, journalists, twitterati etc
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Based on a deal negotiated by a PM elected by a total of 92,153 people.
The DUP are supported by 3 times as many people who voted for Boris.
A PM who has already offered a GE to the opposition twice!
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Based on a deal negotiated by a PM elected by a total of 92,153 people.
The DUP are supported by 3 times as many people who voted for Boris.
A PM who has already offered a GE to the opposition twice!
If he is so desparate for a GE he could just resign and then VoNC Jezza.
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Based on a deal negotiated by a PM elected by a total of 92,153 people.
The DUP are supported by 3 times as many people who voted for Boris.
A PM who has already offered a GE to the opposition twice!
If he really wanted a GE he could just resign and then VoNC Jezza.
He wants a GE so he can beat Jezza and keep him out of power. That line of attack would be somewhat blunted if he puts Jezza in number 10.
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Which is why we need a GE.
Amusingly the DUP are burning away long term Conservative support for NI.
It was the will of the people that this Parliament goes for five years.
Why do you hate democracy that you want to overturn the will of the people?
So any GE which was held before 5 years was against the 'will of the people' by your 'reasoning' ?
No, because the law saying parliaments last 5 years is really new.
A law created because it suited the purposes of the government at that time ie to lock in a stable government majority.
Which is the opposite of what we have now.
Then people should have voted for parties that had the removal of the FTPA in their manifesto. And the parliament, that is the democratically elected body representing the people, can repeal it any time they want.
Do you think every country where no majority party rule occurs just has a new GE every time? Some countries force compromise. Some countries just don't have functioning legislatures for years on end. That is also part of democracy too.
Well that's something to look forward to until June 2022, a non-functioning legislature.
When it can be possibly solved by a GE.
Still I hope that people extolling non-functioning legislatures as part of democracy don't complain of the consequences.
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Based on a deal negotiated by a PM elected by a total of 92,153 people.
The DUP are supported by 3 times as many people who voted for Boris.
A PM who has already offered a GE to the opposition twice!
If he really wanted a GE he could just resign and then VoNC Jezza.
He wants a GE so he can beat Jezza and keep him out of power. That line of attack would be somewhat blunted if he puts Jezza in number 10.
Boris needs to be forced into an election so he can run as champion of the people against the Establishment. If Boris simply calls the election himself, then he *is* the Establishment.
I suppose the Deal goes through either now, or a bit later after a technical extension, or a bit later still after a Con win in a GE. Whatever - it's going through.
This being the Deal that was the EU's first preference from the outset. The Deal that we could have signed up to ages ago.
So the net impact of all of the crap from all of our politicians over the last two years is essentially that May lost her job and Johnson got it. Result.
I may be mistaken , but were you not of the view that Labour's pivot to supporting a Referendum was a sure winner in any GE?
Such a dumb "point" by Biden. It comes from the money that individuals and businesses don't have to spend on private medical insurance. How the hell the richest nation on Earth can't figure out a way to deliver universal healthcare is completey beyond me. Maybe the country is full of selfish arseholes?
Do you really imagine that eliminating employer healthcare would see that money automatically go to employees (or straight to the government) ? It isn't entirely strange that those who have decent healthcare insurance in the US are quite attached to it, and suspicious that a complete upheaval of the system might leave them worse off. The polling bears that out, with the electorate split around 50:50 over Medicare for All. In contrast, around three quarters favour the public option.
While I agree entirely with you on the desirability of universal healthcare, the route to it in the US is far from clearcut.
If it were the sole issue the liberal wing of the party was arguing for then it might have a very good chance indeed - but it is only one of many radical changes being proposed, and absent a Democratic landslide, only one or two of them will get anywhere in Congress.
The problem with the US healthcare system is that it’s completely broken for a minority of people in several distinct groups. The majority are happy with the status quo of some of the best healthcare in the world.
Rather like with UK healthcare reform (but from the opposite direction) the issues are mostly structural and can’t be simply resolved by throwing money at the problem, or throwing different money at an otherwise unreformed system.
Pretty much every other developed Western nation has a working and non-political healthcare system, using a combination of public and private money spent on mostly private provision.
I grew up with my cousin who was Downs, he sadly died recently in his fifties. It was hurtful at the time, being used often when we were playing out in the early 70s, but thankfully the use of “mong” as an insult is now rarely heard. All the more shameful that a PB poster thinks it is still acceptable as was seen earlier this morning.
The offensive post is still there and also another post that quotes it. These should be deleted. This website is not guido's. It doesn't need to be in the gutter.
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
One thing the more extreme XR protesters may well do is move the Overton window on climate change and the environment.
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Based on a deal negotiated by a PM elected by a total of 92,153 people.
The DUP are supported by 3 times as many people who voted for Boris.
A PM who has already offered a GE to the opposition twice!
If he really wanted a GE he could just resign and then VoNC Jezza.
He wants a GE so he can beat Jezza and keep him out of power. That line of attack would be somewhat blunted if he puts Jezza in number 10.
It would temporarily put Jezza in No. 10 but not in power.
Labour have lost Male and Female MPs at a close ratio to the makeup of the party in 2017. If the left were deliberately targeting women you'd think the ratio of Female MPs lost compared to the original makeup of the party would look more like the Conservatives, where I think slightly more women are no longer in the party but has a far less balanced ratio of men to women elected in 2017 than Labour.
Although I think Kate Hoey pretty much shows the hypocrisy of all this, the many centrists who start making accusations about almost any deselection were always happy for Kate Hoey to get deselected. I remember Paul Mason discussing reselection with Jess Phillips and using Kate Hoey as his example to justify some reselections and facing very little pushback for mentioning her name.
People who don't agree with Kate Hoey were happy for her to be deselected, not because they are misogynists but because they disagree with her. Even though the Conservatives have a far worse ratio of Female MPs elected and now out of the party than Labour I suspect the deselections were overwhelmingly ideological, as they were / would have been with Dominic Grieve for the Tories or John Woodcock for Labour.
In the case of the Conservatives it does feel like women have been more likely to be the outspoken remainers / anti no dealers when you consider the percentage of women in the party to begin with, I don't know if this is because the women MPs (or women in general) would tend more to moderation on Brexit, or maybe some Cameron or other moderate Tory related effect?
I grew up with my cousin who was Downs, he sadly died recently in his fifties. It was hurtful at the time, being used often when we were playing out in the early 70s, but thankfully the use of “mong” as an insult is now rarely heard. All the more shameful that a PB poster thinks it is still acceptable as was seen earlier this morning.
The offensive post is still there and also another post that quotes it. These should be deleted. This website is not guido's. It doesn't need to be in the gutter.
If someone hits the ‘flag’ button on an offensive or libellous post it sends an alert to a moderator. (Obviously best done sparingly if one doesn’t want to be on the wrong end of the mods themselves).
Waking up to find the DUP are a bunch of pricks is always a pleasure. Fuck em, do the deal, put it to parliament and then when those twits vote it down resign the government and force an election. Let voter anger sweep them all into the sea.
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
I would disagree they are correct, they are certainly targeting the wrong country. As I type someone in my office just said "when are the water cannons coming out?" The Civil Rights movement may have been unpopular at the time but we can all agree it broadly targeted the right places.
Did anyone who voted leave actually have this current scenario in mind when they cast their ballot. The future of the UK being horse traded with a party that received 292,000 total votes in the last election. We've lost our minds.
Which is why we need a GE.
Amusingly the DUP are burning away long term Conservative support for NI.
It was the will of the people that this Parliament goes for five years.
Why do you hate democracy that you want to overturn the will of the people?
So any GE which was held before 5 years was against the 'will of the people' by your 'reasoning' ?
No, because the law saying parliaments last 5 years is really new.
A law created because it suited the purposes of the government at that time ie to lock in a stable government majority.
Which is the opposite of what we have now.
Then people should have voted for parties that had the removal of the FTPA in their manifesto. And the parliament, that is the democratically elected body representing the people, can repeal it any time they want.
Do you think every country where no majority party rule occurs just has a new GE every time? Some countries force compromise. Some countries just don't have functioning legislatures for years on end. That is also part of democracy too.
Well that's something to look forward to until June 2022, a non-functioning legislature.
When it can be possibly solved by a GE.
Still I hope that people extolling non-functioning legislatures as part of democracy don't complain of the consequences.
I'm not extolling the virtues of a non functioning legislature, I'm saying that it is sometimes the democratic outcome of an election. Should parliament choose to hold an election, that will be fine, but it has to be parliament's choice now. That is how the law stands.
To make it out as if a GE is the only option is preposterous. MPs could decide to work together and form a GNU, the government could decide to work with parliament rather than against it, Corbyn could be deposed and be succeeded by someone the House can rally behind and a Lab minority could be formed. These are all options open to the duly elected politicians if they wish.
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
One thing the more extreme XR protesters may well do is move the Overton window on climate change and the environment.
Well they haven't changed the desire to buy ever more consumer goods:
The year-on-year growth rate shows that the quantity bought in September 2019 increased by 3.1%, with growth across all sectors except department stores and household goods.
I'm having an enjoyable time on Twitter. Endless supply of Corbyn cultists denying the anti-semitism in front of their eyes and doing so by posting their own anti-semitism to prove there isnt any
The absolute state of the party. Jess Phillips testing a defence for why she is still in the party. It isn't convincing
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
I agree about climate change but XR are an extreme anti capitalism movement that have an agenda and the idea we are going to be wiped out by 2025 unless we carry out their unrealistic and idiotic targets is for the birds
So this time we are coming up with a document which will have UK Parliamentary support which we can then present to the EU for their approval. Last time the EU produced a document which Theresa May approved but the UK Parliament didn't.
Finally we are taking responsibility for the fact we voted to Leave and have to find solutions to the problems we have caused by leaving instead of shouting a lot and hoping the EU will agree to everything we want.
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
I agree about climate change but XR are an extreme anti capitalism movement that have an agenda and the idea we are going to be wiped out by 2025 unless we carry out their unrealistic and idiotic targets is for the birds
MLK also had a pretty extreme anti capitalist agenda, but is now a hero.
And nobody is saying we will be wiped out by 2025. The scientific consensus is we have to make massive changes in society by 2025 to reduce carbon emissions to have a chance of not having a warming effect of 2 degrees globally. Increasingly the effects of that 2 degree rise look more and more devastating, as under the current warming we are experiencing the feedback effects are happening faster than scientists originally thought.
I agree about climate change but XR are an extreme anti capitalism movement that have an agenda and the idea we are going to be wiped out by 2025 unless we carry out their unrealistic and idiotic targets is for the birds
MLK also had a pretty extreme anti capitalist agenda, but is now a hero.
And nobody is saying we will be wiped out by 2025. The scientific consensus is we have to make massive changes in society by 2025 to reduce carbon emissions to have a chance of not having a warming effect of 2 degrees globally. Increasingly the effects of that 2 degree rise look more and more devastating, as under the current warming we are experiencing the feedback effects are happening faster than scientists originally thought.
I've no time for XR's eco-authoritarianism but climate change is our biggest challenge over the next 20 years or so and all the nonsense about Brexit is really irrelevance of the first order in that context.
I've always believed in human ingenuity and anything Government can do to stimulate and encourage that ingenuity toward mitigating the effects of climate change (which will be much more severe for other parts of the world than for the UK) should be supported. As a crude example, periods of extreme heat are a serious health risk for the elderly and others with respiratory problems. How can we provide cooling facilities for the next heatwave or when summer temperatures in London regularly top 100F?
Beyond that, we need to move our economic model away from carbon-based resource consumption toward something else and that will challenge how we work and how we live at a fundamental level.
Your hatred of London is parochial, pathetic and boring. I remember your extolling Mansfield as your paleoconservative vision for Britain. You’re welcome to it.
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
I agree about climate change but XR are an extreme anti capitalism movement that have an agenda and the idea we are going to be wiped out by 2025 unless we carry out their unrealistic and idiotic targets is for the birds
MLK also had a pretty extreme anti capitalist agenda, but is now a hero.
And nobody is saying we will be wiped out by 2025. The scientific consensus is we have to make massive changes in society by 2025 to reduce carbon emissions to have a chance of not having a warming effect of 2 degrees globally. Increasingly the effects of that 2 degree rise look more and more devastating, as under the current warming we are experiencing the feedback effects are happening faster than scientists originally thought.
That MLK comment may be premature.
The morons of Manchester University just demanded that a statue of Gandhi be cancelled because he was a racist and an oppressor of Kashmir. To be fair, it is the weird 'decolonialisers' who did it.
MLK was a womaniser and a whole lot of other things. The perpetually-offended-o-twats may be coming for him soon...
Time to tell the Yanks to F off and look at their own shitshow
Absolutely Malc. Tell them to F off, tell the EU to F off. Anyone else?
I can think of a few, mainly Tories though. It si pathetic all the grovelling we do to the US and the crap they come out with about the special ONE WAY relationship. As long as we lick their butts and keep giving them great deals we are their pal, but drop of a hat they will crap on UK big time. Pathetic.
Comments
When it can be possibly solved by a GE.
Still I hope that people extolling non-functioning legislatures as part of democracy don't complain of the consequences.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/
And, however annoying XR might be, however much we all want to stick our heads in the sands, we all (almost all) know that they are right about the climate crisis.
Rather like with UK healthcare reform (but from the opposite direction) the issues are mostly structural and can’t be simply resolved by throwing money at the problem, or throwing different money at an otherwise unreformed system.
Pretty much every other developed Western nation has a working and non-political healthcare system, using a combination of public and private money spent on mostly private provision.
NEW THREAD
Although I think Kate Hoey pretty much shows the hypocrisy of all this, the many centrists who start making accusations about almost any deselection were always happy for Kate Hoey to get deselected. I remember Paul Mason discussing reselection with Jess Phillips and using Kate Hoey as his example to justify some reselections and facing very little pushback for mentioning her name.
People who don't agree with Kate Hoey were happy for her to be deselected, not because they are misogynists but because they disagree with her. Even though the Conservatives have a far worse ratio of Female MPs elected and now out of the party than Labour I suspect the deselections were overwhelmingly ideological, as they were / would have been with Dominic Grieve for the Tories or John Woodcock for Labour.
In the case of the Conservatives it does feel like women have been more likely to be the outspoken remainers / anti no dealers when you consider the percentage of women in the party to begin with, I don't know if this is because the women MPs (or women in general) would tend more to moderation on Brexit, or maybe some Cameron or other moderate Tory related effect?
To make it out as if a GE is the only option is preposterous. MPs could decide to work together and form a GNU, the government could decide to work with parliament rather than against it, Corbyn could be deposed and be succeeded by someone the House can rally behind and a Lab minority could be formed. These are all options open to the duly elected politicians if they wish.
The year-on-year growth rate shows that the quantity bought in September 2019 increased by 3.1%, with growth across all sectors except department stores and household goods.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/bulletins/retailsales/september2019
Finally we are taking responsibility for the fact we voted to Leave and have to find solutions to the problems we have caused by leaving instead of shouting a lot and hoping the EU will agree to everything we want.
And nobody is saying we will be wiped out by 2025. The scientific consensus is we have to make massive changes in society by 2025 to reduce carbon emissions to have a chance of not having a warming effect of 2 degrees globally. Increasingly the effects of that 2 degree rise look more and more devastating, as under the current warming we are experiencing the feedback effects are happening faster than scientists originally thought.
And nobody is saying we will be wiped out by 2025. The scientific consensus is we have to make massive changes in society by 2025 to reduce carbon emissions to have a chance of not having a warming effect of 2 degrees globally. Increasingly the effects of that 2 degree rise look more and more devastating, as under the current warming we are experiencing the feedback effects are happening faster than scientists originally thought.
I've no time for XR's eco-authoritarianism but climate change is our biggest challenge over the next 20 years or so and all the nonsense about Brexit is really irrelevance of the first order in that context.
I've always believed in human ingenuity and anything Government can do to stimulate and encourage that ingenuity toward mitigating the effects of climate change (which will be much more severe for other parts of the world than for the UK) should be supported. As a crude example, periods of extreme heat are a serious health risk for the elderly and others with respiratory problems. How can we provide cooling facilities for the next heatwave or when summer temperatures in London regularly top 100F?
Beyond that, we need to move our economic model away from carbon-based resource consumption toward something else and that will challenge how we work and how we live at a fundamental level.
The morons of Manchester University just demanded that a statue of Gandhi be cancelled because he was a racist and an oppressor of Kashmir. To be fair, it is the weird 'decolonialisers' who did it.
MLK was a womaniser and a whole lot of other things. The perpetually-offended-o-twats may be coming for him soon...
The other question is what is in the new WA and how different is it from the WA which was rejected three times.
Or have we reached the point of desperation where a bad WA is the only way to resolve this?