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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,916
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    Johnson’s spending will do nothing but address the cuts that have all ready taken place if that, I’m not sure who is going to wipe our old people’s backsides or pull vegetables from the fields and if house prices collapse the Tories are toast.
    If house prices fall more people get to buy houses meaning more Tory voters
    Yup. Run with that. That'll work. "Vote Tory. We'll seriously drop the value of your house". You'll get a landslide... :)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.



    Nah calm down it's against abuse of power. Of whatever flavour.
    Motes and beams...
    Yes good point. The supreme court does have power. Thank the lord because they can rein in politicians trying to take the piss.
    So who reins them in for doing the same.
    Parliament. The law can be changed at any time (provided some idiot hasn't come along and prorogued it, in which case they'd have to wait a bit).
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    Johnson’s spending will do nothing but address the cuts that have all ready taken place if that, I’m not sure who is going to wipe our old people’s backsides or pull vegetables from the fields and if house prices collapse the Tories are toast.
    If house prices fall more people get to buy houses meaning more Tory voters
    Yup. Run with that. That'll work. "Vote Tory. We'll seriously drop the value of your house". You'll get a landslide... :)
    Vote Labour, we'll steal your house. (All proceeds to be given to the poor, especially the Momentum poor. Free compensatory Owls)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    Johnson’s spending will do nothing but address the cuts that have all ready taken place if that, I’m not sure who is going to wipe our old people’s backsides or pull vegetables from the fields and if house prices collapse the Tories are toast.
    If house prices fall more people get to buy houses meaning more Tory voters
    Yup. Run with that. That'll work. "Vote Tory. We'll seriously drop the value of your house". You'll get a landslide... :)
    It is London and the South East which will see the main falls but they will still be healthy assets just more people will have them, post Brexit the average Tory voter is more likely to be found in the Midlands than London anyway.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Omnium said:

    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    Another PBer having a fit of the vapours over a small quip that suddenly explodes into the Supreme Court becoming political.

    I suggest they lie down in a dark room and reflect on how easily their snowflake personalities become triggered.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    viewcode said:

    egg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Anorak said:

    Amazing inversion of the accompanying commentary. Very, very clever.


    America could do with a dose of socialism. So could we.
    America is where you go to get away from socialism not to have more of it
    Comparing UK with US runs into differences, again we are into the land of labels, in different cultures, and different political systems in terms of central control and local democracy. In America they use the term liberal for left. In other countries Liberals represent right wing ideas.

    So ideas. Like minimum wage? USA or parts of it had one before we did? Green ideas left wing? There’s some great recycling going on in USA, arguably better than Britain.

    So maybe the centre of gravity of the whole politics of a Nation. And on this point there’s things I don’t understand about US politics, please enlighten me. Today there seems to be a centre of gravity between the parties. But before the sixties it was two right of centre parties with the centre of political gravity running amid each one? The south used to elect many Democrats, many of which were overtly racist? Something changed in fifty years? What? And Why?
    Up to the 1960s there was a distinct group of Democratic politicians in the former states of the Confederacy who were deeply racist ("Dixiecrats"). As the South was at the time deeply racist and there were long folk memories of Lincoln (the Republican President who freed the slaves and beat the Confederates in the 19th century Civil War), they were electorally very popular. But by the 1960's some things came into play: Vietnam, greater media coverage, and the people of the South started to agitate for civil rights previously denied them. The President at the time was the Democrat Lyndon Johnson who gave greater impetus to this movement in law and legislation was passed. His successor was Richard Nixon, a Republican of remarkable political skill and unremarked racism, who appealed more to the South than the Democrats now did, and the racists in the South transferred their allegiance to him. Before the 1960s the Democrats were seen as the racist party, but after the 1960s the Republicans were so seen.

    (Yes, I know there are perfectly decent and nonracist Republicans and perfectly indecent and racist Democrats, but that's not the point: I'm answering the question that was asked)
    And the bit about the centre of gravity now between the parties making on right on left, was that not always the case? Or was it two broad centre right parties with much right and left in them?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,260
    edited October 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 3,022
    Omnium said:



    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    There’s a total contradiction there. You suggest the SC is too political but appear to yearn for a return to the days when the highest court in the land was a committee of the upper house of the legislature, thus inherently political? The SC is just a rebadged Law Lords but moved out of the legislature. The 12 Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (the Law Lords) were the first justices of the Supreme Court, then disqualified from sitting or voting in the House of Lords. Previously they could. When all SC justices retire from the Supreme Court they can head over to the House of Lords as full Members. In the meantime they’ve been moved over Parliament Square and given a new name.

    As for “speechifying” and “profiting” - that’s bananas. It was a six word off the cuff quip made at a speech to the Association of State Girls schools. Judges are not politically neutral in their spare time, no one is, its impossible, they have the vote. As I say, the Law Lords sat in the House of Lords FFS - a legislative, political, chamber of Parliament
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,923
    TGOHF2 said:
    If he thinks he has found a loophole in the Act, shouldn't he just be having a quiet word with the prime minister to tell him about it? What kind of legal action can he be considering at the this stage? If a loophole really exists, and he tells everyone about it now, isn't that an invitation for parliament to close it off?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086
    Chris said:

    TGOHF2 said:
    If he thinks he has found a loophole in the Act, shouldn't he just be having a quiet word with the prime minister to tell him about it? What kind of legal action can he be considering at the this stage? If a loophole really exists, and he tells everyone about it now, isn't that an invitation for parliament to close it off?
    Hence the “reflecting”.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 34,017
    Charles said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Pulpstar said:

    He's doubling down. Bloody hell.

    He has to, or the headbangers will bring him down
    Presumably she meant a "picture of Farage's face"!

    I know he's two faced, but otherwise I think I see some logistical challenges.
    The image of Nigel Farage suckling on Katie's Hopkin's breasts (plural) is now stuck in my mind.

    Damn you @Charles and damn you Katie Hopkins
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 3,022
    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    We have an “Australian style” points system, as you say, ground into the dust to the point of unworkability by your party over a decade of cuts and mismanagement. Why should I trust them to both massively expand its scope and make it work after so many years of abject failure?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    JackW said:

    Omnium said:

    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    Another PBer having a fit of the vapours over a small quip that suddenly explodes into the Supreme Court becoming political.

    I suggest they lie down in a dark room and reflect on how easily their snowflake personalities become triggered.
    I hesitate to reply with other than deference given your legendary great age.

    However, I'm not even slightly ennervated by this, I'm just stating the facts as I see them. I imagine you did much the same during the the debates about expenditure in the Napoleonic Wars.

    I'm delighted to be compared to a snowflake.

    What matters is that we try to hang on to the best of what we got from the dark ages, when you, Jack, were only slightly old, and not abandon that because its comfortable.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,923

    Chris said:

    TGOHF2 said:
    If he thinks he has found a loophole in the Act, shouldn't he just be having a quiet word with the prime minister to tell him about it? What kind of legal action can he be considering at the this stage? If a loophole really exists, and he tells everyone about it now, isn't that an invitation for parliament to close it off?
    Hence the “reflecting”.
    Pull the other one.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    I see how your post in answering a different question essentially says, yes the Tory soul is now protectionist and anti immigration, and side stepping the fact this is new and has not been the case for the last squillion years, and not the Conservative position in US too till trump came along (and I argue the part of the equation that destroys him).

    More interesting though is you insisting we copy the Aussie system because it works very well and Australia are happy with it. Are you sure 🤔
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 3,022
    edited October 2019
    Chris said:

    TGOHF2 said:
    If he thinks he has found a loophole in the Act, shouldn't he just be having a quiet word with the prime minister to tell him about it? What kind of legal action can he be considering at the this stage? If a loophole really exists, and he tells everyone about it now, isn't that an invitation for parliament to close it off?
    This is all about talking to their own side. You don’t take counsel’s opinion and then broadcast over Twitter “look, look, I’ve got a barrister’s view”!!! There a possibility of a waiver of privilege (although that hasn’t happened here)
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,611


    Up there with some of Labour's best campaign ads.

    They try and they try but like with Corbyn the media struggle to strangle the message. The message is getting through to some people, particularly the youth, loud and clear. Change is coming, it might not be this election, but it is coming.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
    It is focused on skills and vacancies needed in the economy, so if you have a job offer to pick crops or work in social care you can come
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    You don't get it: working class leavers generally don't want any immigrants! They dislike anyone who does not look or sound like them...

    I am also amused by your talk on house prices. I genuinely fear for your sanity after reading some of the posts you publish. Political parties can get things wrong you know? You should never slavishly follow political parties as all Governments make mistakes. If you want to be a serious politician, knowing when to say No is as important as saying Yes. Otherwise the other people in the party you belong to think your a dipstick with no ability to think things through for yourself.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 3,022
    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    I see how your post in answering a different question essentially says, yes the Tory soul is now protectionist and anti immigration, and side stepping the fact this is new and has not been the case for the last squillion years, and not the Conservative position in US too till trump came along (and I argue the part of the equation that destroys him).

    More interesting though is you insisting we copy the Aussie system because it works very well and Australia are happy with it. Are you sure 🤔
    He knows damn well, as he mentioned it earlier, that this will be an expansion of the existing system for non - EEA workers rather than some shiny new Australian thing that he has been told to parrot because it had gone down well with focus groups.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    DougSeal said:

    Omnium said:



    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    There’s a total contradiction there. You suggest the SC is too political but appear to yearn for a return to the days when the highest court in the land was a committee of the upper house of the legislature, thus inherently political? The SC is just a rebadged Law Lords but moved out of the legislature. The 12 Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (the Law Lords) were the first justices of the Supreme Court, then disqualified from sitting or voting in the House of Lords. Previously they could. When all SC justices retire from the Supreme Court they can head over to the House of Lords as full Members. In the meantime they’ve been moved over Parliament Square and given a new name.

    As for “speechifying” and “profiting” - that’s bananas. It was a six word off the cuff quip made at a speech to the Association of State Girls schools. Judges are not politically neutral in their spare time, no one is, its impossible, they have the vote. As I say, the Law Lords sat in the House of Lords FFS - a legislative, political, chamber of Parliament
    I most distinctly said 'If'. I'm fairly sure this 'story' is just her going about whatever sort of things she's done for many years. IF though that isn't the case then my comments apply.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,976

    I see it is "Enemies of the People" night on PB.

    Predictable I suppose....

    Seriously, why do you post on here?

    You make some of the least intelligent and most petulant comments on this site.

    I was embarrassed by your posts when you were a tubthumbing BOO’er on here five years ago, and I’m embarrassed by your posts attempting to be insightfully witty (but painfully showing your limitations) now.

    Rather than channelling your strongest inner emotions (unfiltered) stick to what you’re good at: insight in areas you know about, and reasoned perspective.

    Seriously. It’ll be better for all of us.

    Seriously Comrade Casino...you are behaving like a bellend of the highest calibre..calm down darling
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
    It is focused on skills and vacancies needed in the economy, so if you have a job offer to pick crops or work in social care you can come
    So what actually changes then? Just an end for people coming without a job who don’t contribute just sponge off the state? Anything else?

    That really is the policy?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,927
    Omnium said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    You and Guido are terribly sensitive souls, aren't you?

    It's a pretty mild quip to say "let's hear it for girly swots" at a conference of the Association of State Girls Schools.

    I also ider it non-justicable if a future PM Corbyn prorogued Parliament for two years to dodge a no confidence vote, or prevent Parliament interfering by legislating to the contrary with executive action he was taking to get rid of all private schools? Just asking because the logic of the argument the Government was putting to the Supreme Court is precisely that that would be perfectly legal.
    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    Any old rule ?

    Speechifying based on the SC decision - you’ve read the transcript then ?
    Please provide a link.
  • DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.





    It was a unanimous decision of 11 members of the Supreme Court. Are people suggesting all 11 are biased? She, essentially, just read out the majority opinion. Perhaps they should reflect on the outright sexism of the comment she was mocking (a dig made at a conference of girls schools) rather than extrapolating a minor dig into a questioning of what was a closely argued, logical and well reasons judgment of her and 10 of her peers.

    I could add that it hasn’t made any difference to Brexit anyway. Nothing in that regard has changed as a result of Parliament returning.
    A very good point that it's changed nothing, as it transpires.

    As I've mentioned, the bonkers logic of the Government's position in the case is that PMs have unrestricted power to prorogue at any time, for any period, and for any reason. Had that been accepted, a future PM Corbyn (or insert any other bogeyman's name here) could prorogue for any period of time he wanted to prevent a vote of no confidence, or to prevent legislation to stop an executive from taking advantage of a gap in current legislation to pursue any heinous policy you care to dream up.

    So Tories (were so many not so short-sighted) should be singing the praises of Lady Hale, and thanking their lucky stars for the Supreme Court. At no cost, in practice, to their current hobby-horse, they've been delivered from something potentially much worse in future from a Government they don't like.
  • TGOHF2 said:
    Has he discussed this with his friends in the Polish government?
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
    It is focused on skills and vacancies needed in the economy, so if you have a job offer to pick crops or work in social care you can come
    So what actually changes then? Just an end for people coming without a job who don’t contribute just sponge off the state? Anything else?

    That really is the policy?
    In terms of non-EU policy, it works by requiring earnings/skills thresholds except for those in shortage professions. I imagine the list of low skill shortage professions will decline over time to push up wages. Social care likely the exception.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 3,022
    Omnium said:

    DougSeal said:

    Omnium said:



    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    There’s a total contradiction there. You suggest the SC is too political but appear to yearn for a return to the days when the highest court in the land was a committee of the upper house of the legislature, thus inherently political? The SC is just a rebadged Law Lords but moved out of the legislature. The 12 Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (the Law Lords) were the first justices of the Supreme Court, then disqualified from sitting or voting in the House of Lords. Previously they could. When all SC justices retire from the Supreme Court they can head over to the House of Lords as full Members. In the meantime they’ve been moved over Parliament Square and given a new name.

    As for “speechifying” and “profiting” - that’s bananas. It was a six word off the cuff quip made at a speech to the Association of State Girls schools. Judges are not politically neutral in their spare time, no one is, its impossible, they have the vote. As I say, the Law Lords sat in the House of Lords FFS - a legislative, political, chamber of Parliament
    I most distinctly said 'If'. I'm fairly sure this 'story' is just her going about whatever sort of things she's done for many years. IF though that isn't the case then my comments apply.
    Back in the old days the Law Lords spoke and voted on explicitly political issues in the HL. Denning famously spoke on the Abortion Act for example. And now people are getting worked up about a 6 word response to what was initially an ill judged quip? Insane.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,916
    Zephyr said:

    viewcode said:



    Up to the 1960s there was a distinct group of Democratic politicians in the former states of the Confederacy who were deeply racist ("Dixiecrats"). As the South was at the time deeply racist and there were long folk memories of Lincoln (the Republican President who freed the slaves and beat the Confederates in the 19th century Civil War), they were electorally very popular. But by the 1960's some things came into play: Vietnam, greater media coverage, and the people of the South started to agitate for civil rights previously denied them. The President at the time was the Democrat Lyndon Johnson who gave greater impetus to this movement in law and legislation was passed. His successor was Richard Nixon, a Republican of remarkable political skill and unremarked racism, who appealed more to the South than the Democrats now did, and the racists in the South transferred their allegiance to him. Before the 1960s the Democrats were seen as the racist party, but after the 1960s the Republicans were so seen.

    (Yes, I know there are perfectly decent and nonracist Republicans and perfectly indecent and racist Democrats, but that's not the point: I'm answering the question that was asked)

    And the bit about the centre of gravity now between the parties making on right on left, was that not always the case? Or was it two broad centre right parties with much right and left in them?
    Oh Lord, now there's a question. Thinks for a minute.

    Ok. Take two crowds. One is made up of Republican congressmen. Another is made up of Democrat congressmen (yes, I know there are women. Husht I'm improvising). Put them all in the same room. Each person stands close to the people they have things in common with and far from those they don't.

    Now view it from above.

    In the 50s and 60s, they overlapped quite a bit. But as the decades wore on, they began to separate and now they are quite wide apart. They don't talk to each other and vote against each other always. So you are correct: your centre of gravity used to be populated, now it isn't.

    As to why this happened: I don't know. I have my theory, which is greater information, wider media, and now the ability to select news according to taste forced people to choose, whereas previously friendships could flourish in private. Margaret Thatcher and (I think) Reg Prentice(?) were friends, as were the Republican John McCain and Democrat Joe Lieberman. But cross-aisle friendships, exchange of ideas, and bi-partisan voting is discouraged by media and internet attention and we are now in a mess.

    Of course, I might be wrong... :(
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    tyson said:

    I see it is "Enemies of the People" night on PB.

    Predictable I suppose....

    Seriously, why do you post on here?

    You make some of the least intelligent and most petulant comments on this site.

    I was embarrassed by your posts when you were a tubthumbing BOO’er on here five years ago, and I’m embarrassed by your posts attempting to be insightfully witty (but painfully showing your limitations) now.

    Rather than channelling your strongest inner emotions (unfiltered) stick to what you’re good at: insight in areas you know about, and reasoned perspective.

    Seriously. It’ll be better for all of us.

    Seriously Comrade Casino...you are behaving like a bellend of the highest calibre..calm down darling
    Ignore him B, he’s obviously had a bad day, or too much to drink already. Not a good advert that for casino politics. I always read your posts, very interested in what you have to say.

    Anyway this evening is good one for fans of HY baiting. We currently have him trapped in the pit of his immigration policy he fell into running away from his housing policy, everybody’s now poking him with a pointy stick and i’m off to fetch a pendulum
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,916

    TGOHF2 said:
    Has he discussed this with his friends in the Polish government?
    Dear court. You know that law we passed? I call backsies. I had my fingers crossed. You can't make me. My mum wrote me a note. Regards, Daniel.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    edited October 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    You don't get it: working class leavers generally don't want any immigrants! They dislike anyone who does not look or sound like them...

    I am also amused by your talk on house prices. I genuinely fear for your sanity after reading some of the posts you publish. Political parties can get things wrong you know? You should never slavishly follow political parties as all Governments make mistakes. If you want to be a serious politician, knowing when to say No is as important as saying Yes. Otherwise the other people in the party you belong to think your a dipstick with no ability to think things through for yourself.
    No that is the BNP, most people want controlled immigration not no immigration and mass deportations despite your attempts to portray 52% of voters as racists


  • Up there with some of Labour's best campaign ads.

    They try and they try but like with Corbyn the media struggle to strangle the message. The message is getting through to some people, particularly the youth, loud and clear. Change is coming, it might not be this election, but it is coming.

    Because we've never ever had change before. it's going to be quite a shock.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,376
    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
    It is focused on skills and vacancies needed in the economy, so if you have a job offer to pick crops or work in social care you can come
    So what actually changes then? Just an end for people coming without a job who don’t contribute just sponge off the state? Anything else?

    That really is the policy?
    No, as I said if they have a needed skill or a job offer they can come if not they are blocked from entry as migrants
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    You and Guido are terribly sensitive souls, aren't you?

    It's a pretty mild quip to say "let's hear it for girly swots" at a conference of the Association of State Girls Schools.

    I also ider it non-justicable if a future PM Corbyn prorogued Parliament for two years to dodge a no confidence vote, or prevent Parliament interfering by legislating to the contrary with executive action he was taking to get rid of all private schools? Just asking because the logic of the argument the Government was putting to the Supreme Court is precisely that that would be perfectly legal.
    Hale and others do have skin in the game. It's daftness to suggest otherwise.

    Just because proroging was wrong doesn't mean any old rule should over-turn it.

    If Hale is now profiting or speechifying based on the SC court decision then I think that its clear the SC has become political. (To my mind the Law Lords was a better mechanism)

    Any old rule ?

    Speechifying based on the SC decision - you’ve read the transcript then ?
    Please provide a link.
    Ok. Any new rule. The point being that the process matters.

    I've read part of the transcript. There is no record of me having done so, and therefore I can provide no link.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    Zephyr said:

    tyson said:

    I see it is "Enemies of the People" night on PB.

    Predictable I suppose....

    Seriously, why do you post on here?

    You make some of the least intelligent and most petulant comments on this site.

    I was embarrassed by your posts when you were a tubthumbing BOO’er on here five years ago, and I’m embarrassed by your posts attempting to be insightfully witty (but painfully showing your limitations) now.

    Rather than channelling your strongest inner emotions (unfiltered) stick to what you’re good at: insight in areas you know about, and reasoned perspective.

    Seriously. It’ll be better for all of us.

    Seriously Comrade Casino...you are behaving like a bellend of the highest calibre..calm down darling
    Ignore him B, he’s obviously had a bad day, or too much to drink already. Not a good advert that for casino politics. I always read your posts, very interested in what you have to say.

    Anyway this evening is good one for fans of HY baiting. We currently have him trapped in the pit of his immigration policy he fell into running away from his housing policy, everybody’s now poking him with a pointy stick and i’m off to fetch a pendulum
    You don't have me trapped in anything you just continue to spout your rants against 52% of electors who dared to vote for an end to uncontrolled EU immigration
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty
    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
    It is focused on skills and vacancies needed in the economy, so if you have a job offer to pick crops or work in social care you can come
    So what actually changes then? Just an end for people coming without a job who don’t contribute just sponge off the state? Anything else?

    That really is the policy?
    I didn't realise Johnson hated Corbyn so much he wanted to end him. I mean, they're basically very similar men and Corbyn is the most important prop of his government right now.

    Or will some spongers be excepted?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086
    edited October 2019
    viewcode said:

    Zephyr said:

    viewcode said:



    Up to the 1960s there was a distinct group of Democratic politicians in the former states of the Confederacy who were deeply racist ("Dixiecrats"). As the South was at the time deeply racist and there were long folk memories of Lincoln (the Republican President who freed the slaves and beat the Confederates in the 19th century Civil War), they were electorally very popular.

    (Yes, I know there are perfectly decent and nonracist Republicans and perfectly indecent and racist Democrats, but that's not the point: I'm answering the question that was asked)

    And the bit about the centre of gravity now between the parties making on right on left, was that not always the case? Or was it two broad centre right parties with much right and left in them?
    Oh Lord, now there's a question. Thinks for a minute.

    Ok. Take two crowds. One is made up of Republican congressmen. Another is made up of Democrat congressmen (yes, I know there are women. Husht I'm improvising). Put them all in the same room. Each person stands close to the people they have things in common with and far from those they don't.

    Now view it from above.

    In the 50s and 60s, they overlapped quite a bit. But as the decades wore on, they began to separate and now they are quite wide apart. They don't talk to each other and vote against each other always. So you are correct: your centre of gravity used to be populated, now it isn't.

    As to why this happened: I don't know. I have my theory, which is greater information, wider media, and now the ability to select news according to taste forced people to choose, whereas previously friendships could flourish in private. Margaret Thatcher and (I think) Reg Prentice(?) were friends, as were the Republican John McCain and Democrat Joe Lieberman. But cross-aisle friendships, exchange of ideas, and bi-partisan voting is discouraged by media and internet attention and we are now in a mess.

    Of course, I might be wrong... :(
    I think you're pretty much spot on.

    Social media and Twitter in particular has immeasurably degraded political discourse on all levels. Serious issues are reduced to little more than sound-bites, often completely removed from any context - which is vital to allow a considered and measured understanding.

    Politicians used to have time and space to consider and reflect - and usually in an environment which actually allowed true debate. Now everything’s just a shouting match, heat of the moment stuff which polarises opinions with people retreating into their safe-space echo chambers.

    Ban politicians from Twitter. The world will be a happier and much better run place.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949

    Ban politicians from Twitter. The world will be a happier and much better run place.

    Why stop at politicians? Do we really need to know that Justin Bieber and Kim Kardashian's most profound insights do not stretch to 280 characters?

    If we banned Twitter would the world end?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    ydoethur said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Zephyr said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:



    The well off will feel little pain from no deal the really well off will probably make money any impact will fall on those who were lied to to get their vote. There will be no positive benefit to their lives and I doubt they will enjoy their new sovereignty

    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    So is the soul of the Conservative Party laissez faire like the Brexit Party, or anti immigrant and protectionist like Stalin, Mussolini and Trump?
    The Brexit Party are not laissez faire, the Liberal Democrats are now arguably the most laissez faire party.

    Australia has a points system which works well as will we
    How does a points system help the UK get the people it needs to harvest crops and wipe old people’s arses?
    It is focused on skills and vacancies needed in the economy, so if you have a job offer to pick crops or work in social care you can come
    So what actually changes then? Just an end for people coming without a job who don’t contribute just sponge off the state? Anything else?

    That really is the policy?
    I didn't realise Johnson hated Corbyn so much he wanted to end him. I mean, they're basically very similar men and Corbyn is the most important prop of his government right now.

    Or will some spongers be excepted?
    You must know a range of truly extraordinary individuals if Corbyn and Boris seem similar to you.

    Such an idea is rather splendid.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086
    ydoethur said:

    Ban politicians from Twitter. The world will be a happier and much better run place.

    Why stop at politicians? Do we really need to know that Justin Bieber and Kim Kardashian's most profound insights do not stretch to 280 characters?

    If we banned Twitter would the world end?
    Well I would go along with that as well.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,976
    On topic..I think Rory is making a major mistake...he is challenging one of the good guys in UK politics to raise his profile....

  • Lady Hale was also speaking to an Association of State Girls Schools. Apart from being the first female head of the judicary she also got there via a state school, non Oxbridge university and then legal academia. All three of those routes are unusual for a senior judge. Taken together very unusual. That clearly adds signifigant context to the girly swots joke.

    As for the previous Law Lords system being superior Brenda Hale was a Law Lord. She was Grandparented across to the Supreme Court when it was set up.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    You don't get it: working class leavers generally don't want any immigrants! They dislike anyone who does not look or sound like them...

    I am also amused by your talk on house prices. I genuinely fear for your sanity after reading some of the posts you publish. Political parties can get things wrong you know? You should never slavishly follow political parties as all Governments make mistakes. If you want to be a serious politician, knowing when to say No is as important as saying Yes. Otherwise the other people in the party you belong to think your a dipstick with no ability to think things through for yourself.
    No that is the BNP, most people want controlled immigration not no immigration and mass deportations despite your attempts to portray 52% of voters as racists
    I don't live within the M25 or just outside it like yourself. But up north where your new "Tory Heartlands" are suppose to be. The people I chat too, who voted Leave and generally speaking would be described as working class or Labour voters do not like immigrants. I don't know whether you are being obtuse or really don't understand this. Not all the 52% of voters you tediously talk about and think are arbiters of national opinion in perpetuity are racist but many of them happen to think that way. I am not saying that is right or wrong but what I am saying is Boris Johnson is not going to bring an end to the feeling for some at least of Immigrants encroaching into their lives....
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,580
    edited October 2019

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
    Seemed quite affectionate and tongue in cheek to me. Unless you actually believe there's anyone on earth who thinks 'swot' is some sort of barb. But of course it was a red rag to the professionally offended.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,808
    I had wondered if @JackW had turned up at that meeting ready to sell his famed pies.



    A modest proposal by the sound of it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    edited October 2019
    Omnium said:

    You must know a range of truly extraordinary individuals if Corbyn and Boris seem similar to you.

    Such an idea is rather splendid.

    Corbyn has a beard and better dress sense. Johnson is an able linguist.

    But otherwise they're both liars, philanderers, populists, manipulated by dimwitted advisers who think they're intelligent, appoint people for reasons other than merit, are only out for themselves and their cronies, both from very affluent backgrounds who know nothing about the poor and care less, and owing their position to their families than any innate merits of their own, and both are either very racist or incredibly poor judges of character (or both, of course).

    True, they sometimes say different things about what they might do if they ever got into power, but since it should be obvious that neither has the slightest intention of keeping their word on any given policy that strikes me as irrelevant.

    The funny thing is that while their supporters are deeply entrenched in their sides, they just cannot see that these men are almost identical and not just superficially so. That's why I annoy them by quoting the last lines of Animal Farm periodically.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    edited October 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Of course a factor often overlooked when thinking no deal is going to be hell on earth is that for many they feel that they are overlooked, out of luck and hard up against it regardless of the status of Brexit and nobody gives a damn about them. The tribulations of the well off will be of little regard to them should Brexit cause chaos. They feel the chaos anyway. Many of them are passionate leavers.

    They will, their house prices will go down, working class Leavers will benefit from tighter controls on immigration and the extra spending Boris is pushing
    All that is going to happen on Immigration is instead of being EU migrants, people from the rest of the world will be queuing to come here. £10 an hour minimum wage is a big pull if you are on £1 a day in Pakistan, India or Africa or anywhere else for that matter. The point is I can see your Leave working class voters welcoming the new immigrants with open arms. What could go wrong? :naughty:
    No, all tgat will happen is EU citizens will be subject to the same points system everyone else is
    You don't get itour talk on ho things through for yourself.
    No that is the BNP, most people want controlled immigration not no immigration and mass deportations despite your attempts to portray 52% of voters as racists
    I don't live within the M25 or just outside it like yourself. But up north where your new "Tory Heartlands" are suppose to be. The people I chat too, who voted Leave and generally speaking would be described as working class or Labour voters do not like immigrants. I don't know whether you are being obtuse or really don't understand this. Not all the 52% of voters you tediously talk about and think are arbiters of national opinion in perpetuity are racist but many of them happen to think that way. I am not saying that is right or wrong but what I am saying is Boris Johnson is not going to bring an end to the feeling for some at least of Immigrants encroaching into their lives....
    Working class voters who most dislike immigration full stop are likely already voting Brexit Party, hence the Brexit Party is still on at least 12% in the polls but they were only a minority of the Leave vote let alone voters as a whole hence the Tories still have a clear poll lead with their more pragmatic points system migration policy. Indeed many of those working class anti immigration voters as you say used to vote Labour not Tory anyway
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,755

    Canada is the world’s largest exporter of electricity at 64 TWh; Germany 51 TWh; Paraguay 48 TWh; France at 42TWh.

    Then comes Wales, placed above energy rich Norway and its $1 trillion sovereign wealth fund built on surpluses from its energy policy.

    Welsh success in producing vast amount of electricity has no monetary value for the Welsh people. It is stolen by others.

    Wales is just a giant electricity power plant (or water company) run by and for another country. Wales is a colony run for the benefit of England.

    Just like the Australian colonies, where better to dump English undesirables like Griffin ?

    Wales' success in producing energy is a brilliant, amazing thing. Clearly this success should now be built on by securing more energy jobs and investment that benefits those living in Wales. It's just waiting for someone with vision to do, and I fail to see Wales being part of the UK as an impediment.
    The Plaid leader's whole "reparations from the UK" schtick is nothing more then rather unsubtle Anglophobic dog-whistling masquerading as policy. Presenting Wales as a colonial possession in this way is insulting and ridiculous, and asking for something which he knows he's not going to get is just a cynical tactic to galvanise hard nationalist support and to generate an artificial grievance.

    Which is all a great shame because actually Wales *IS* hard done by, just not quite in the way he claims. Wales is massively underfunded, and this is indeed a result of the neglect and incompetence of the central Government. Unfortunately for Plaid, however, there are a couple of little problems with how this has come about. Firstly, the poorer parts of England are also underfunded - so it's clearly not a special conspiracy against the Welsh (and, moreover, why should taxpayers in those parts of the country help shoulder the burden of some kind of exceptional special treatment for Wales that they won't get?) And secondly, Wales would almost certainly be substantially better off if it lobbied for and secured the scrapping and replacement of the bloody Barnett formula - but that would involve breaking faith with the Scottish nationalists, who howl at the very suggestion of such a thing.

    The way to attack Wales's disadvantages is through the actual truth: Scotland and Northern Ireland get a lot more money than Wales per head because the UK Government feels the need to bribe them to stay put, whereas Wales and the poorer English regions are taken for granted. Common cause should be made with other put upon parts of the country, not by encouraging the voters of Ebbw Vale and Tredegar to treat those of Tower Hamlets and Bradford as oppressors. They aren't.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,815

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
    Seemed quite affectionate and tongue in cheek to me. Unless you actually believe there's anyone on earth who thinks 'swot' is some sort of barb. But of course it was a red rag to the professionally offended.
    On the contrary. 'Swot' can be a very nasty term in the schoolchild culture of some schools.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,927
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    You must know a range of truly extraordinary individuals if Corbyn and Boris seem similar to you.

    Such an idea is rather splendid.

    Corbyn has a beard and better dress sense. Johnson is an able linguist.

    But otherwise they're both liars, philanderers, populists, manipulated by dimwitted advisers who think they're intelligent, appoint people for reasons other than merit, are only out for themselves and their cronies, both from very affluent backgrounds who know nothing about the poor and care less, and owing their position to their families than any innate merits of their own, and both are either very racist or incredibly poor judges of character (or both, of course).

    True, they sometimes say different things about what they might do if they ever got into power, but since it should be obvious that neither has the slightest intention of keeping their word on any given policy that strikes me as irrelevant.

    The funny thing is that while their supporters are deeply entrenched in their sides, they just cannot see that these men are almost identical and not just superficially so. That's why I annoy them by quoting the last lines of Animal Farm periodically.
    But that’s just.... more or less true.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086
    tyson said:

    On topic..I think Rory is making a major mistake...he is challenging one of the good guys in UK politics to raise his profile....

    That’s going a bit far.

    Whilst I despise everything politically he represents Livingstone was a good Mayor. And yes, as was Boris. Both men understood what being London Mayor was actually all about. And both did stuff which persist to this day. Ken’s Oyster and Congestion charge. Boris’ bikes and busses.

    Khan is a nothing. He’s the supermarket own brand mild cheddar. The plain potato crisp.

    Rory probably just as bad but the London mayoralty needs pizzazz. A Zaphod Beeblebrox.

    Eddie Izzard for example. He would be perfect.


  • tyson said:

    On topic..I think Rory is making a major mistake...he is challenging one of the good guys in UK politics to raise his profile....

    Exactly. If Rory is seriously fighting for sensible, centrist values the London mayoralty is the institution in the UK least in need of it. Khan has defined himself against the Corbyn project, Benita is very centrist, Berry is firmly on the ' realo ' wing of the Greens. Even if you find Bailey's religious social conservatism objectionable he is undoubtably a black man from a very non traditional background for a Tory candidate. So where is the extremist dysfunction that Rory is seeking to fight ? A couple of Brexit Party GLA members elected on the list at most. It's a bizzare decision.

    Interestingly Benita first stood as a celebrity centrist independent with a strong air war. But she concluded she needed a party label if she wanted to win.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,682
    dr_spyn said:

    I had wondered if @JackW had turned up at that meeting ready to sell his famed pies.



    A modest proposal by the sound of it.
    Genuine :lol:
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,690
    Wonder if they are offering Hungary the money Varadkar turned down? ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,506
    edited October 2019
    dr_spyn said:

    I had wondered if @JackW had turned up at that meeting ready to sell his famed pies.



    A modest proposal by the sound of it.
    It was a pro Trump group spoof

    https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/04/screaming-trump-supporter-jokes-eating-babies-will-stop-climate-crisis-10863626/
  • nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
    Seemed quite affectionate and tongue in cheek to me. Unless you actually believe there's anyone on earth who thinks 'swot' is some sort of barb. But of course it was a red rag to the professionally offended.
    Downing Street was sufficiently embarrassed about it to redact the words from the version given to the Scottish courts, of course (for no legal or security reason).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    You must know a range of truly extraordinary individuals if Corbyn and Boris seem similar to you.

    Such an idea is rather splendid.

    Corbyn has a beard and better dress sense. Johnson is an able linguist.

    But otherwise they're both liars, philanderers, populists, manipulated by dimwitted advisers who think they're intelligent, appoint people for reasons other than merit, are only out for themselves and their cronies, both from very affluent backgrounds who know nothing about the poor and care less, and owing their position to their families than any innate merits of their own, and both are either very racist or incredibly poor judges of character (or both, of course).

    True, they sometimes say different things about what they might do if they ever got into power, but since it should be obvious that neither has the slightest intention of keeping their word on any given policy that strikes me as irrelevant.

    The funny thing is that while their supporters are deeply entrenched in their sides, they just cannot see that these men are almost identical and not just superficially so. That's why I annoy them by quoting the last lines of Animal Farm periodically.
    But that’s just.... more or less true.
    In many ways, I would argue Boris Johnson is the ultimate tribute to Jeremy Corbyn. Having seen that an ideologue with the intellect of a dead donkey did unexpectedly well in an election against a serious if perhaps rather foolish candiate, the Tories went for one themselves.

    The results were predictably disastrous. We are seeing now roughly what a Corbyn minority government would be like, except given his top team are even more clueless and inexperienced than the current cabinet it would probably be even more embarrassing and chaotic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    GIN1138 said:

    Wonder if they are offering Hungary the money Varadkar turned down? ;)
    Money, Orban for their buck?
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,976
    edited October 2019
    HYUFD said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I had wondered if @JackW had turned up at that meeting ready to sell his famed pies.



    A modest proposal by the sound of it.
    It was a pro Trump group spoof

    https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/04/screaming-trump-supporter-jokes-eating-babies-will-stop-climate-crisis-10863626/
    We eat lots of other young mammalian flesh...a spot of garlic, some light seasoning...washed down with a nice Pinot...yum yum
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I had wondered if @JackW had turned up at that meeting ready to sell his famed pies.



    A modest proposal by the sound of it.
    It was a pro Trump group spoof

    https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/04/screaming-trump-supporter-jokes-eating-babies-will-stop-climate-crisis-10863626/
    We eat lots of other young mammalian flesh...a spot of garlic, some light seasoning...washed down with a nice Pinot...yum yum
    It's political correctness gone mad when people like the Greens turn their noses up at such an idea!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,580


    Wales' success in producing energy is a brilliant, amazing thing. Clearly this success should now be built on by securing more energy jobs and investment that benefits those living in Wales. It's just waiting for someone with vision to do, and I fail to

    The Plaid leader's whole "reparations from the UK" schtick is nothing more then rather unsubtle Anglophobic dog-whistling masquerading as policy. Presenting Wales as a colonial possession in this way is insulting and ridiculous, and asking for something which he knows he's not going to get is just a cynical tactic to galvanise hard nationalist support and to generate an artificial grievance.

    Which is all a great shame because actually Wales *IS* hard done by, just not quite in the way he claims. Wales is massively underfunded, and this is indeed a result of the neglect and incompetence of the central Government. Unfortunately for Plaid, however, there are a couple of little problems with how this has come about. Firstly, the poorer parts of England are also underfunded - so it's clearly not a special conspiracy against the Welsh (and, moreover, why should taxpayers in those parts of the country help shoulder the burden of some kind of exceptional special treatment for Wales that they won't get?) And secondly, Wales would almost certainly be substantially better off if it lobbied for and secured the scrapping and replacement of the bloody Barnett formula - but that would involve breaking faith with the Scottish nationalists, who howl at the very suggestion of such a thing.

    The way to attack Wales's disadvantages is through the actual truth: Scotland and Northern Ireland get a lot more money than Wales per head because the UK Government feels the need to bribe them to stay put, whereas Wales and the poorer English regions are taken for granted. Common cause should be made with other put upon parts of the country, not by encouraging the voters of Ebbw Vale and Tredegar to treat those of Tower Hamlets and Bradford as oppressors. They aren't.

    A very interesting point. The only thing I would say is that public bodies have never been good allocators of resources, and I don't think that more plentiful public spending is a long term answer to poverty anywhere. People need jobs, not just shiny new pavements or even shiny new hospitals - though clearly those things are not unwelcome.

    These are just the sketchy thoughts of a non expert, but I would seek to build on Wales' success in the energy sector, by creating the tidal lagoons, keeping coal-fired power stations (and potentially building a new clean coal station), and becoming a world centre for excellence in carbon capture and storage, and, where there's an overwhelming commercial case, getting coal out of the ground. The coal fired station there currently runs on Russian coal, which is daft. Wales could be the new superpower of power.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,285
    edited October 2019

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    You and Guido are terribly sensitive souls, aren't you?

    It's a pretty mild quip to say "let's hear it for girly swots" at a conference of the Association of State Girls Schools.
    You seem to have overlooked the slide she chose to pose in front of, so here it is again.



    "Spider woman takes down Hulk: Viewers transfixed by judge's brooch as ruling crushes PM". It might as well have been "Look what I've done, taken down the UK's attempts to throw off the shackles of the EU*, crushed the PM, aren't I clever."

    She's absolutely revelling in the invited attention that she wouldn't have got if she had upheld the High Court ruling, and I find that unacceptable.

    [*Which was the comparison Johnson made to cite the Incredible Hulk]
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .


  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,690
    edited October 2019
    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,690
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    Bizarely the DT article has EU sources for the story. This whole Brexit lark is becoming very cloak and dagger !
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 4,666
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    I understand that there are people hoping that the Royal Mail aren't so efficient in delivering an overweight letter with an upside down 2nd class stamp, and a scrawled address, posted just after the last collection in a letter box near Downing St. in coming days.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,690
    edited October 2019
    nico67 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    Bizarely the DT article has EU sources for the story. This whole Brexit lark is becoming very cloak and dagger !
    I suspect the EU have been demanding to know what exactly Hugary's foreign secretary was doing attending the UK government's Cabinet yesterday. ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086
    edited October 2019
    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    Bizarely the DT article has EU sources for the story. This whole Brexit lark is becoming very cloak and dagger !
    I suspect the EU have been demanding to know what exactly Hugary's foreign secretary was doing attening the UK government's Cabinet meeting yesterday. ;)
    Presumably there are many other ways a member State such as Hungary can "be difficult" in the EU's ability to function - other than just a veto for the UK extension.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,976
    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
    When you change sterling into Euros you'll probably get some sense how fucked over we have been by this Brexit bullshit...that unless you are a speculator, in which case you'll be flying first class with a bottle of Bollinger
  • GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    They've nothing up their sleeve and the "mind games" are purely for domestic consumption.

    Just now, the gamble is either they get a deal because the EU ultimately feel it's good enough (in which case "Look, told you so!") or they don't (in which case they extend but seek to deflect blame). Whilst the first option is still just about credible, there is no need to admit that the second is the (more likely) fallback.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 3,022
    L

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    You and Guido are terribly sensitive souls, aren't you?

    It's a pretty mild quip to say "let's hear it for girly swots" at a conference of the Association of State Girls Schools.
    You seem to have overlooked the slide she chose to pose in front of, so here it is again.



    "Spider woman takes down Hulk: Viewers transfixed by judge's brooch as ruling crushes PM". It might as well have been "Look what I've done, taken down the UK's attempts to throw off the shackles of the EU*, crushed the PM, aren't I clever."

    She's absolutely revelling in the invited attention that she wouldn't have got if she had upheld the High Court ruling, and I find that unacceptable.

    [*Which was the comparison Johnson made to cite the Incredible Hulk]
    It was a six word quip. The old Law Lords made made political speeches in the HL and no one batted an eyelid. Lady Hale herself, before the HL Judicial Committee became the SC, was one of them. This is faux outrage over a decision that has not damaged Brexit one bit. Even if she had recused herself, the other 10 made the decision unanimous.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
    You won’t need to have something to fit the EHIC card in after a no deal ! Just another benefit flushed down the toilet !
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086
    tyson said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
    When you change sterling into Euros you'll probably get some sense how fucked over we have been by this Brexit bullshit...that unless you are a speculator, in which case you'll be flying first class with a bottle of Bollinger
    If your company makes its earnings in USD and EUR you're laughing all the way.

    Anyone with a smartphone can be a "speculator". They don't all match the stereotype loved by socialists with a chip on their shoulder.

    Get an account set up yourself and have a flutter. You might be surprised.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,580

    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    They've nothing up their sleeve and the "mind games" are purely for domestic consumption.

    You hope.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,976
    AndyJS said:
    Comrade..I think that one has been dealt with... a load of cold goulash....

    Boris's big plan is to send the letter, blame Corbyn, win a majority and then press ahead with May's deal....shushh though, because it is all very secretive don't you know....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    nico67 said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
    You won’t need to have something to fit the EHIC card in after a no deal ! Just another benefit flushed down the toilet !
    Well, no, but most of my trip is in October.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    tyson said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
    When you change sterling into Euros you'll probably get some sense how fucked over we have been by this Brexit bullshit...that unless you are a speculator, in which case you'll be flying first class with a bottle of Bollinger
    I have quite a lot of Euros left from a trip to Germany a while ago actually, so that's not going to be such a problem.
  • GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    They've nothing up their sleeve and the "mind games" are purely for domestic consumption.

    You hope.
    And you hope the reverse. Difference is, my hope is based on the record of Johnson's Government to date, which is one of bluster, legal failure, and political failure. Whereas your hope is based on an idea that there is a strategic genius there that hasn't at all been in evidence so far.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    Bizarely the DT article has EU sources for the story. This whole Brexit lark is becoming very cloak and dagger !
    I suspect the EU have been demanding to know what exactly Hugary's foreign secretary was doing attending the UK government's Cabinet yesterday. ;)
    I can see Parliament wishing to see the minutes from that Cabinet meeting and any other documentation associated with preparation by civil servants/advisors provided by the tax payer or legal opinion for that matter...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,859
    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    I am a proud girly swot.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,580
    Carnyx said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
    Seemed quite affectionate and tongue in cheek to me. Unless you actually believe there's anyone on earth who thinks 'swot' is some sort of barb. But of course it was a red rag to the professionally offended.
    On the contrary. 'Swot' can be a very nasty term in the schoolchild culture of some schools.
    Sorry, I should have clarified, anyone over the age of 10.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,086

    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leavers don’t mind meddling from foreign countries . However seeking to get another country to veto an extension will end up with a contempt charge for Bozo .

    Notwithstanding the fact that it’s now so blatant that you’d think if you were going to do it you’d have the sense to not broadcast it .



    Personally I think this is a red-herring.

    They've got something up their sleeve to get round Benn but I don't think it's this (this is more likely designed to play mind games with the EU)
    Bizarely the DT article has EU sources for the story. This whole Brexit lark is becoming very cloak and dagger !
    I suspect the EU have been demanding to know what exactly Hugary's foreign secretary was doing attending the UK government's Cabinet yesterday. ;)
    I can see Parliament wishing to see the minutes from that Cabinet meeting and any other documentation associated with preparation by civil servants/advisors provided by the tax payer or legal opinion for that matter...
    And there's literally nothing they can do about it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    Cyclefree said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    I am a proud girly swot.
    You don't do anything on the fly?
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,976

    tyson said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, something positive if completely off-topic:

    I am going away for a few days at the end of the month, but, as it's to the EU and my passport expires early next year, I had to get it renewed.

    I applied online on the Monday at 10.40. I posted my old one back Monday at 1.30. I got my new passport today.

    That's quite impressive.

    And that was just the ordinary system, not the fast track.

    Well done to the Royal Mail and Passport Office.

    Was it Blue? :D
    No.

    But I do have, and have done for many years, a rather fetching blue cover for it. Not only does it look much nicer, but that allows me to keep my EHIC card with it.

    I'm just wondering whether it would perhaps be tactless to use it for travel to the EU right now.
    When you change sterling into Euros you'll probably get some sense how fucked over we have been by this Brexit bullshit...that unless you are a speculator, in which case you'll be flying first class with a bottle of Bollinger
    If your company makes its earnings in USD and EUR you're laughing all the way.

    Anyone with a smartphone can be a "speculator". They don't all match the stereotype loved by socialists with a chip on their shoulder.

    Get an account set up yourself and have a flutter. You might be surprised.
    I don't need any more money or assets...I've accumulated more than I'll ever know what to do with...and that was without trying that hard...

    I wish most other human beings were not quite as greedy...

    The problem with capitalism is that encourages people to be complete tossers...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,949
    edited October 2019

    Carnyx said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
    Seemed quite affectionate and tongue in cheek to me. Unless you actually believe there's anyone on earth who thinks 'swot' is some sort of barb. But of course it was a red rag to the professionally offended.
    On the contrary. 'Swot' can be a very nasty term in the schoolchild culture of some schools.
    Sorry, I should have clarified, anyone over the age of 10.
    You would still be wrong. I would saythe biggest barrier to improving education is the strongly anti-intellectual culture of British teenagers. It's an even bigger drag than the incompetence of the DfE.
  • As an uber Remainer I can't think of anything more hilarious than Viktor Orban vetoing an A50 extension. What better satire of this entire debacle than the UK being forced into a chaotic No Deal exit against the will of its parliament by a far away country of which we know nothing ? I can't think of a better example of the pooled vs individual soveriegnty debate in the 21 st Century. than that.

    Let us hope it happens for the entertainment value.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,815

    Carnyx said:

    nichomar said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, we're told that the rulings of the Supreme Court are determined by politically impartial judges who seek to remain independent from intervening in the political fray, and as such those making the rulings are sacrosanct from accusations of political bias.

    And then their leader indulges in this sort of thing. She'll be following the politically neutral lead of another soon by driving around in a car with "B***ocks to Brexit" on it.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again: we should not go after civilians. There has to be some brigh line beyond which the usual commentariat go "d'y'know what: just leave it". And none of this "oh she put herself in the firing line" gubbins. She did her job. No need to hound her.

    Again, did anyone actually bother to find out what she actually said ?
    From the little I’ve seen, it seems wholly unexceptionable.
    As a father with three daughters let’s hear it for the girly swots
    Truly terrible remark by Johnson about his former buller club chum. It suggests he is

    a) Sexist
    b) Lazy
    c) A terrible judge of character
    Seemed quite affectionate and tongue in cheek to me. Unless you actually believe there's anyone on earth who thinks 'swot' is some sort of barb. But of course it was a red rag to the professionally offended.
    On the contrary. 'Swot' can be a very nasty term in the schoolchild culture of some schools.
    Sorry, I should have clarified, anyone over the age of 10.
    In my experience 16 or 17 would be more like the upper limit - but I can well belive it could be higher elsewhere.
This discussion has been closed.