How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding it really hard to see a way forward for the Brexit Party now.If Boris delivers a deal he will get huge cudos that will outweigh the criticism that the deal is crap.If he doesn't he will either become a brexit martyr or will probably be forgiven by blaming the blockers .
There is no deal that Johnson can deliver that the ERG can possibly support, let alone the BXP, because it willl have had to have been agreed by the EU first. And any deal the EU agrees to is, by definition, not one either the ERG or BXP will back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here we go again - "everyone knows". I suspect like most people probably do, that the EU will not accept the proposal, cos that's what negotiating is all about, but that is not knowledge. Even if the proposal is close to acceptable it can still be buffed up a bit 'cos they know Boris will not have put everything on the table even if he says he has. No one proposes a deal saying "you can have something better if you ask nicely".
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
As long as there is Corbyn the Tories will win most seats and have a very decent chance to get a majority. The coud well do it with a vote share close to the 1997 one.
Yes, that's certainly possible. But the window is relatively narrow: to get a majority, Boris needs to either circumvent the Benn Act and engineer an election before the no-deal chaos hits home, or somehow evade the blame for not doing-or-dying whilst holding his current support for long enough to get to the election before too much political capital has drained away.
OK, say Mr Cummings has a cunning plan and the UK crashes out in just over 4 weeks time. The opposition parties would have no reason not to let him stay put until enough chickens return to roost for the Tories to sink in the polls. So GE not before next year?
It’s game over for the Brexit Party if a deal passes .
Farage can scream betrayal but the symbolism of the UK leaving can’t be underestimated.
The symbolism of having left but still being constrained by EU rules can't be underestimated. The whole thing will have been for nothing, and it will do nothing to end the polarisation.
The symbolisation of having voted for something and it being done rather than ignored is what seems to be underestimated
You voted to end free movement. If there's a deal, free movement will continue. It will be a complete slap in the face for you.
Come again?
Free movement ending has already been accepted by the EU in May's deal, why would it continue under a Boris deal?
The transition is a total standstill. Free movement does not end under it. As for the future relationship, that depends on trade offs that have yet to be made. Johnson has now accepted the principle of a standstill transition, having previously described it as an unacceptable 'vassal state' status.
Will the UK have to enforce the financial transparency regulations during transition?
Trust in politics and politicians in this country is probably now at an all time low.People remember the Lib Dems and tuition fees as a totemic sell out (whatever the reasons for it ) so they are far from immune to this distrust. The electorate will assume their worst scenario will be likely to materialise now.
Labour voters will. I think Swinson’s current pitch is largely aimed at ex-Tory voters for whom tuition fees and austerity are less of an issue. It also means that the “Swinson is a Tory” meme is likely to be ineffectual. If you believe that you are not open to persuasion, and likely never voted Lib Dem, anyway.
If we leave without a deal then what happens to the other parties positions. Rejoining the EU looks a natural change for the Lib Dems, but does Labour switch to a referendum on rejoining or just bury Brexit under a renewed domestic agenda.
I would have thought that Labour would run on some flim-flam about negotiating a close relationship with the EU, leaving the possibility of rejoining for the future.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
In PMQs news, I gather Diane couldn't count to six......
My favourite bit was;
"I've been a member of this house I've been a member of this house when Tory MPs worked their will to the immediate foreign prime the immediate female prime minister"
Fuck knows what she was on about, but I enjoyed it.
So maybe "No Transition Period and No Starting Point for Talks on a Future Relationship" Brexit?
And given your thoughts on the time needed to negotiate a future relationship, do you see a standstill transition period being extended for the same period (which would be politically tricky for some when those multiple general elections come round!)
1st para -
Yes. Or more simply Chaotic Brexit.
2nd para -
I think if we do Orderly Brexit (WA) the transition period will just carry on until the Deal (FR) is done. If we do Chaotic Brexit (no WA) I really have no clue what will happen but my sense is that it will work to our detriment.
How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding it really hard to see a way forward for the Brexit Party now.If Boris delivers a deal he will get huge cudos that will outweigh the criticism that the deal is crap.If he doesn't he will either become a brexit martyr or will probably be forgiven by blaming the blockers .
There is no deal that Johnson can deliver that the ERG can possibly support, let alone the BXP, because it willl have had to have been agreed by the EU first. And any deal the EU agrees to is, by definition, not one either the ERG or BXP will back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here we go again - "everyone knows". I suspect like most people probably do, that the EU will not accept the proposal, cos that's what negotiating is all about, but that is not knowledge. Even if the proposal is close to acceptable it can still be buffed up a bit 'cos they know Boris will not have put everything on the table even if he says he has. No one proposes a deal saying "you can have something better if you ask nicely".
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
I helped to negotiate a rather big company sale last year. I ma pretty up with how things work. You begin by having the sfinalisation of the deal as your priority, not as a secondary concern. Part of that is not having to second guess third parties who are not involved in the negotiation.
People remember the Lib Dems and tuition fees as a totemic sell out (whatever the reasons for it ) so they are far from immune to this distrust. .
I and my family spend a significant amount of time knocking on doors for the LibDems, in a constituency dominated by the kind of genteel not-very-well-off to whom student loans really matter.
It's getting on for five years since the student loan thing last came up. We're getting (some) stick over the Revoke pledge, two-way stick over whatever alliance with Labour we might end up with ("You'll let Corbyn in by the back door" vs "Getting rid of that fat prick is top of my list, so stop poncing around and do a deal with Labour"), and a disconcerting amount of Extinction Rebellion ("just stop plastic")
But if the 2010-2015 coalition comes up at all, it's now always as in "the Tory council cuts have got worse since you stopped being in the coalition"
I think we would all benefit from the following clarification of terms -
DEAL: The Future Relationship. To be negotiated over a period of several years which will likely span multiple general elections and potentially some big changes in political climate both here and in Brussels. Until these negotiations are concluded it is not possible to say whether we have ended up with a 'soft' or a 'hard' Brexit.
BREXIT: The event - which can be chaotic or orderly - that must occur in order to start the above negotiations.
This might sound semantic but I don't think it is. If one uses this terminology it puts a different - and IMO more accurate - slant on things.
For example, it becomes clear that a 'No Deal Brexit' is a meaningless tautology. ALL Brexits are No Deal Brexits since a Deal can only be done once Brexit has happened.
No, a 'deal' in this context means a Withdrawal Agreement. It would be very confusing to switch terminology now.
If we leave without a deal then what happens to the other parties positions. Rejoining the EU looks a natural change for the Lib Dems, but does Labour switch to a referendum on rejoining or just bury Brexit under a renewed domestic agenda.
Doesn't this slightly misunderstand what a No Deal Brexit is? It's not a destination but merely the absence of a deal. So politics remains preoccupied with the future relationship for the foreseeable future.
I do worry the public as a whole fail to grasp this. Leaving on "No Deal" (whether you support it or not) is very, very far from ending the issue and allowing people to get on with a meaningful domestic agenda.
That's the way I always saw it. Even if nothing changes at first, we have the opportunity to elect governments that can change our relationship with the EU over time. I would have bitten your hand off to be in this position now if you had asked me in 2013
Yes. And for me the point will be to elect governments who will do some serious transformative things that we currently cannot do as an EU member. And I don't mean just on immigration.
If that does not happen then all of this will have been a monumental waste of time and energy.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding it really hard to see a way forward for the Brexit Party now.If Boris delivers a deal he will get huge cudos that will outweigh the criticism that the deal is crap.If he doesn't he will either become a brexit martyr or will probably be forgiven by blaming the blockers .
There is no deal that Johnson can deliver that the ERG can possibly support, let alone the BXP, because it willl have had to have been agreed by the EU first. And any deal the EU agrees to is, by definition, not one either the ERG or BXP will back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here we go again - "everyone knows". I suspect like most people probably do, that the EU will not accept the proposal, cos that's what negotiating is all about, but that is not knowledge. Even if the proposal is close to acceptable it can still be buffed up a bit 'cos they know Boris will not have put everything on the table even if he says he has. No one proposes a deal saying "you can have something better if you ask nicely".
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
I helped to negotiate a rather big company sale last year. I ma pretty up with how things work. You begin by having the sfinalisation of the deal as your priority, not as a secondary concern. Part of that is not having to second guess third parties who are not involved in the negotiation.
Your arse must get pretty pissed off sometimes. You missed out "acceptable".
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
"Cos life is hard enough when you belong here" Grim fare from him.
From "Meat is Murder", easily in the top 10 albums of the 80s, to just another incel fascist. Such a decline.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
"A Rush and a Push" sort of confirms it....
His pronunciation of plagiarise as plague her eyes did it for me.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
He's a good example of someone where you have to divorce the man from his art (though sometimes the man infected the art). Unfortunately for those who regard the two as inextricably linked, his best work is sublime.
I think we would all benefit from the following clarification of terms -
DEAL: The Future Relationship. To be negotiated over a period of several years which will likely span multiple general elections and potentially some big changes in political climate both here and in Brussels. Until these negotiations are concluded it is not possible to say whether we have ended up with a 'soft' or a 'hard' Brexit.
BREXIT: The event - which can be chaotic or orderly - that must occur in order to start the above negotiations.
This might sound semantic but I don't think it is. If one uses this terminology it puts a different - and IMO more accurate - slant on things.
For example, it becomes clear that a 'No Deal Brexit' is a meaningless tautology. ALL Brexits are No Deal Brexits since a Deal can only be done once Brexit has happened.
No, a 'deal' in this context means a Withdrawal Agreement. It would be very confusing to switch terminology now.
If we leave without a deal then what happens to the other parties positions. Rejoining the EU looks a natural change for the Lib Dems, but does Labour switch to a referendum on rejoining or just bury Brexit under a renewed domestic agenda.
Doesn't this slightly misunderstand what a No Deal Brexit is? It's not a destination but merely the absence of a deal. So politics remains preoccupied with the future relationship for the foreseeable future.
I do worry the public as a whole fail to grasp this. Leaving on "No Deal" (whether you support it or not) is very, very far from ending the issue and allowing people to get on with a meaningful domestic agenda.
I certainly do grasp it - & I believe the Lib Dems would wish to rejoin, the Tories would be in some (tricky) negotiations on the future relationship. Nevertheless we'd be out.
What would Labour do - negotiate a future relationship then put it to a referendum with rejoin as an option; or just get on negotiating the future relationship.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
He's a good example of someone where you have to divorce the man from his art (though sometimes the man infected the art). Unfortunately for those who regard the two as inextricably linked, his best work is sublime.
Always easier to do once the artist is dead. Right now the idea of buying his music feels tantamount to donating directly to the nazis.
That's not really true. Labour folks tend to think of me as some kind of right-wing monster for believing in capitalism. There used to be a time when a belief in mixed market economies was acceptable in the Labour party. So I think I'll probably vote Lib Dem next time thanks.
Next budget round ROI will be a net contributor post Brexit.
Heart of potato ...
If you think the EU is going to make Ireland anything other than very happy post-Brexit you really need to get yourself onto a political blog to understand how the world works.
Good leaders' speeches are those which get the delegates clapping and enthusiastic, despite telling them truths they don't want to hear: think Kinnock 1985, or Blair any time, or Cameron's 2005 speech which won him the leadership.
Boris has simply told delegates what they want to hear. He does it amusingly. But that's all.
Sorry but that is garbage. Blair's speeches weren't consistently telling delegates what they don't want to hear as for the other examples . . .
Kinnock 1985 and Cameron 2005 were both in opposition and not long from major defeats, years before a new election was due, where the opposition needed a rebuilding process to get it ready for opposition let alone governance.
This isn't a start of a rebuild speech, this is a potential pre-General Election speech and needs to be viewed in that context. So for Kinnock the relevant comparison would be eg the Sheffield Rally and I think today was much smarter than that!
You have a point that it depends on the context, but I'd argue that this is a rebuild moment (or should be). The party has mislaid a majority, has sacked 21 MPs including multiple distinguished ex-Cabinet ministers, is hamstrung in parliament, faces a highly polarised population, and is still hunting unicorns rather than addressing any of this.
The party hasn't mislaid a majority it didn't have one. Simply pretending there's a majority then letting everyone ignore the whip and do what they want isn't smart management it is living in denial.
The party isn't hunting unicorns it is hunting voters. Get a real majority at an election and all your other concerns are dealt with.
Bad jokes and telling a self-selected set of delegates simplistic nonsense that they want to hear, having driven out the sensible voices, won't necessarily win back the majority the party had less than three years ago.
Define "sensible". Is that "people I agree with"?
Being a Theresa May 2.0 using vapid soundbites telling everyone on all sides what they want to hear, allowing the whip to completely be ignored with impunity and standing for nothing at all won't win one back either. Boris is making clear what he stands for and people can either vote for it or not, but at least he stands for something other than "Brexit means Brexit" and allowing Grieve and JRM to completely ignore the whip from opposite sides of the argument under the same colours as the leader.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
He's a good example of someone where you have to divorce the man from his art (though sometimes the man infected the art). Unfortunately for those who regard the two as inextricably linked, his best work is sublime.
Predicting in "Rubber Ring", that the people who listened to his music when they were lonely would forget him when they found happiness, and ticking them off for it in advance, was quite funny and astute.
"When you're dancing, and laughing, and finally living, hear my voice in your head and think of me kindly"
If the UK expanded wind capacity so that we have the ability to produce sufficient to export plenty on the windiest days, France could then schedule nuclear plant downtime around UK low pressure systems.
Being a Theresa May 2.0 using vapid soundbites telling everyone on all sides what they want to hear, allowing the whip to completely be ignored with impunity and standing for nothing at all won't win one back either. Boris is making clear what he stands for and people can either vote for it or not, but at least he stands for something other than "Brexit means Brexit" and allowing Grieve and JRM to completely ignore the whip from opposite sides of the argument under the same colours as the leader.
'Sensible people' means what it says.
I've no idea what your second paragraph is saying, but certainly no-one would cite Theresa May as a great leader or speech writer.
That's not really true. Labour folks tend to think of me as some kind of right-wing monster for believing in capitalism. There used to be a time when a belief in mixed market economies was acceptable in the Labour party. So I think I'll probably vote Lib Dem next time thanks.
"Addressing activists, he [Corbyn] called for a "mixed economy of public and social enterprise... a private sector with a long-term private business commitment". https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36351149
How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding it really hard to see a way forward for the Brexit Party now.If Boris delivers a deal he will get huge cudos that will outweigh the criticism that the deal is crap.If he doesn't he will either become a brexit martyr or will probably be forgiven by blaming the blockers .
There is no deal that Johnson can deliver that the ERG can possibly support, let alone the BXP, because it willl have had to have been agreed by the EU first. And any deal the EU agrees to is, by definition, not one either the ERG or BXP will back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here we go again - "everyone knows". I suspect like most people probably do, that the EU will not accept the proposal, cos that's what negotiating is all about, but that is not knowledge. Even if the proposal is close to acceptable it can still be buffed up a bit 'cos they know Boris will not have put everything on the table even if he says he has. No one proposes a deal saying "you can have something better if you ask nicely".
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
I helped to negotiate a rather big company sale last year. I ma pretty up with how things work. You begin by having the sfinalisation of the deal as your priority, not as a secondary concern. Part of that is not having to second guess third parties who are not involved in the negotiation.
Which is exactly why parliament’s behaviour has been so corrosive to the chance of getting a deal
How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding it really hard to see a way forward for the Brexit Party now.If Boris delivers a deal he will get huge cudos that will outweigh the criticism that the deal is crap.If he doesn't he will either become a brexit martyr or will probably be forgiven by blaming the blockers .
There is no deal that Johnson can deliver that the ERG can possibly support, let alone the BXP, because it willl have had to have been agreed by the EU first. And any deal the EU agrees to is, by definition, not one either the ERG or BXP will back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here we go again - "everyone knows". I suspect like most people probably do, that the EU will not accept the proposal, cos that's what negotiating is all about, but that is not knowledge. Even if the proposal is close to acceptable it can still be buffed up a bit 'cos they know Boris will not have put everything on the table even if he says he has. No one proposes a deal saying "you can have something better if you ask nicely".
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
I helped to negotiate a rather big company sale last year. I ma pretty up with how things work. You begin by having the sfinalisation of the deal as your priority, not as a secondary concern. Part of that is not having to second guess third parties who are not involved in the negotiation.
Which is exactly why parliament’s behaviour has been so corrosive to the chance of getting a deal
Cast your mind back to when the text of the deal was first announced. Within minutes it was being denounced on all the TV channels by the current Prime Minister.
@Richard_Nabavi May/her deal appealed to MPs (& Others) who could think logically through problems for themselves and were able to judge a proposal on its merits away from spin and marketing.
Johnson appeals to those who buy spin & marketing far more.
Not difficult to work out which will have the greater chance of success in my opinion.
Next budget round ROI will be a net contributor post Brexit.
Heart of potato ...
If you think the EU is going to make Ireland anything other than very happy post-Brexit you really need to get yourself onto a political blog to understand how the world works.
I wonder if Ireland can afford the bill that will be sent to them (not a cash bill either).
Being a Theresa May 2.0 using vapid soundbites telling everyone on all sides what they want to hear, allowing the whip to completely be ignored with impunity and standing for nothing at all won't win one back either. Boris is making clear what he stands for and people can either vote for it or not, but at least he stands for something other than "Brexit means Brexit" and allowing Grieve and JRM to completely ignore the whip from opposite sides of the argument under the same colours as the leader.
'Sensible people' means what it says.
I've no idea what your second paragraph is saying, but certainly no-one would cite Theresa May as a great leader or speech writer.
In the context of Brexit the sensible MPs who want to respect what the country voted for are still in the party.
The 21 extremists who voted against the party whip are not the sensible ones. They are a tiny minority.
How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding it really hard to see a way forward for the Brexit Party now.If Boris delivers a deal he will get huge cudos that will outweigh the criticism that the deal is crap.If he doesn't he will either become a brexit martyr or will probably be forgiven by blaming the blockers .
There is no deal that Johnson can deliver that the ERG can possibly support, let alone the BXP, because it willl have had to have been agreed by the EU first. And any deal the EU agrees to is, by definition, not one either the ERG or BXP will back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here we go again - "everyone knows". I suspect like most people probably do, that the EU will not accept the proposal, cos that's what negotiating is all about, but that is not knowledge. Even if the proposal is close to acceptable it can still be buffed up a bit 'cos they know Boris will not have put everything on the table even if he says he has. No one proposes a deal saying "you can have something better if you ask nicely".
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
I helped to negotiate a rather big company sale last year. I ma pretty up with how things work. You begin by having the sfinalisation of the deal as your priority, not as a secondary concern. Part of that is not having to second guess third parties who are not involved in the negotiation.
Which is exactly why parliament’s behaviour has been so corrosive to the chance of getting a deal
One of the key requirements of a negotiation is to understand where you think your negotiating partner wants to end up, and why.
Speaking before he saw the plan, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar told the Irish Parliament: "What we are hearing is not encouraging and would not be the basis for agreement."
I’m assuming the next thread will be on our PM’s conference speech...
I'm not one to criticise thread header writers who have a difficult job, but it made me laugh when you posted the list of glowing thread titles about the Lib Dems during their conference, but now contrast that with speculation about a "Portillo moment" just after the PM stops speaking.
When was the last time we had a “deep” conference speech?
Ed Miliband's 'predator capitalism' one was considerably weightier than the norm.
Unfortunately the British public turned out to be more interested in how he looked eating a bacon sandwich.
To be fair he did look and sound ridiculous at the time. However, in retrospect, compared to Bozo and Mr. Thicky he appears and sounds a political colossus. Well, maybe not, but he does at least seem a sane option compered to those two.
To my inexpert eyes, the Boris plan looks fine as far as it goes (which isn't very far), but it doesn't seem to be anything new. It's just a rehash of what Theresa May tried unsuccessfully to get the EU to agree to, isn't it?
I’m assuming the next thread will be on our PM’s conference speech...
I'm not one to criticise thread header writers who have a difficult job, but it made me laugh when you posted the list of glowing thread titles about the Lib Dems during their conference, but now contrast that with speculation about a "Portillo moment" just after the PM stops speaking.
Boris is largely hated on this site, and on Twitter. But I learned during those days when I had an irrational dislike of Gordon Brown during his hero-of-the-world chancellor days that the public doesn't at all reflect the views of nerds (like me) online.
ExLibDem #JC4PM #StopFracking 🏳️🌈🔯Ⓥ @ExLibDemNowLab · 9h 64% of Lib Dem voters back putting Corbyn in power temporarily
Jo Swinson is refusing and playing games
All I can say to them 64% of Lib Dem voters do what I did quit the party come join us in Labour the door is open and welcoming.
Do fuck off. I was essentially told to do the same from the party for having the temerity to mount a defence of Tony Blair and suggest that Corbyn needed to address the Press TV and mural issues. The current Labour Party is anything but “welcoming”.
Speaking before he saw the plan, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar told the Irish Parliament: "What we are hearing is not encouraging and would not be the basis for agreement."
Yes, but now the plan is out ?
At first glance it looks like Johnson has chucked the DUP under a bus to me. Which would be absolubtely the correct strategy at this point in time if indeed that's what he has done.
Just this minute taken a call from Tulip Sadiq's office. Chap called Duncan who said they are expecting an election this year and would I be prepared to do some canvassing? I said yes - you just try and stop me.
Something to bear in mind when the odds on Hampstead & Kilburn become available.
Being a Theresa May 2.0 using vapid soundbites telling everyone on all sides what they want to hear, allowing the whip to completely be ignored with impunity and standing for nothing at all won't win one back either. Boris is making clear what he stands for and people can either vote for it or not, but at least he stands for something other than "Brexit means Brexit" and allowing Grieve and JRM to completely ignore the whip from opposite sides of the argument under the same colours as the leader.
'Sensible people' means what it says.
I've no idea what your second paragraph is saying, but certainly no-one would cite Theresa May as a great leader or speech writer.
In the context of Brexit the sensible MPs who want to respect what the country voted for are still in the party.
The 21 extremists who voted against the party whip are not the sensible ones. They are a tiny minority.
"extremists"? You Brexit obsessives really have lost the plot! Get it through your skull, Brexit is a far right construct, based often, though not always on xenophobia and often racism. It is an extremists' creed. Being against it does not make anyone an extremists except form a very very warped perspective. By the way, most, if not all, voted for the WA. Moderates mate. You might dislike them, but only a complete idiot would describe them politically as extremists.
How many of those listening to Boris's speech who were previously saying they wanted to vote Brexit Party will still be doing so?
Well, Farage still of course. But I suspect it pressed many, many of the BXP voters' buttons. If so, a 40:20:20 result will be a bloodbath for Labour.
And leave the LibDems puffed-up, self-important non-entities.....
Again.
Finding blockers .
There back.
Obviously the BXP won't back it.I think Baker and Francois ( which presumably brings most of the rest of the ERG) would also seem to be saying they will today if it reflects what Boris seems to be proposing.
Yep, but that is not a deal. It is a proposal that everyone knows the EU will not accept. It's about being able to blame them for No Deal.
Here nicely".
There splaying.
I helped to negotiate a rather big company sale last year. I ma pretty up with how things work. You begin by having the sfinalisation of the deal as your priority, not as a secondary concern. Part of that is not having to second guess third parties who are not involved in the negotiation.
Which is exactly why parliament’s behaviour has been so corrosive to the chance of getting a deal
One of the key requirements of a negotiation is to understand where you think your negotiating partner wants to end up, and why.
The UK negotiators didn't do their homework.
The offer Jonson has made is for home consumption, not for serious consideration by the EU. Anyone who has ever been near a proper negotiation can see that! If you are the stronger party and you know the other side is desperate for a deal you can dictate terms. If you're not, you can't. The one thing Johnson has done is shown the EU that the UK will not be dictated to - yet. You have to give him that. But it means a No Deal Brexit. What puzzles me is how he thinks this benefits the UK given that it means no FTAs with our biggest export markets (the EU27 and the US), less freedom for UK citizens and businesses, and government reliance on the goodwill of others to keep multiple things flowing whose seamless operation we currently take for granted.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
He's a good example of someone where you have to divorce the man from his art (though sometimes the man infected the art). Unfortunately for those who regard the two as inextricably linked, his best work is sublime.
It was Jonny Marr’s guitar playing which made it sublime.
That's not really true. Labour folks tend to think of me as some kind of right-wing monster for believing in capitalism. There used to be a time when a belief in mixed market economies was acceptable in the Labour party. So I think I'll probably vote Lib Dem next time thanks.
"Addressing activists, he [Corbyn] called for a "mixed economy of public and social enterprise... a private sector with a long-term private business commitment". https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36351149
But never having met Corbyn, I'm going on my own experience of how Labour folk I have met have "welcomed" me. I don't see a big gulf between my economic policies and substantial parts of the Labour Party (hell, I overlap with both Labour and Conservatives economically), but as soon as you defend capitalism as the default organising principle of the economy, it's like a red mist descends and I'm suddenly a Tory.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
He's a good example of someone where you have to divorce the man from his art (though sometimes the man infected the art). Unfortunately for those who regard the two as inextricably linked, his best work is sublime.
It was Jonny Marr’s guitar playing which made it sublime.
AND, coincidentally, Marr has the right opinions! 🤣
When was the last time we had a “deep” conference speech?
Ed Miliband's 'predator capitalism' one was considerably weightier than the norm.
Unfortunately the British public turned out to be more interested in how he looked eating a bacon sandwich.
Ed Miliband got caught between a rampant SNP and the natural squeeze of the Lib Dem vote (At that time) being far more favourable to the Tories than Labour. He picked up a net 14 seats in England and Wales - a start point of 191 seats for ol' Broon was always a challenging base.
I see no justification for any Labour MP who failed to vote for May's Deal to now support any deal brought to Parliament by Johnson. His vile nature and the contempt he has shown for Parliament should be sufficient to rule that out. Any Labour MP who does go along with it , should face deselection - and have the Whip withdrawn.
He went to school with Paul McCartney and George Harrison. Remarkably really that all three had such memorable voices, but Peter Sisson's voice was a lot posher! (or posh to me at least).
Macca and George never lost their quintessential Scouse.
I’m assuming the next thread will be on our PM’s conference speech...
I'm not one to criticise thread header writers who have a difficult job, but it made me laugh when you posted the list of glowing thread titles about the Lib Dems during their conference, but now contrast that with speculation about a "Portillo moment" just after the PM stops speaking.
Boris is largely hated on this site, and on Twitter. But I learned during those days when I had an irrational dislike of Gordon Brown during his hero-of-the-world chancellor days that the public doesn't at all reflect the views of nerds (like me) online.
Eventually they did though. It is based on the principle of opinion leading, used extensively in marketing. Eventually the views of the nerdish early adopters can become mainstream. It is why the "enough of experts" remark was so dumb. Eventually even folk that agreed at first start to realise that we have experts in a society for a reason, and the message eventually gets through. I guess that Boris will be hated pretty universally in time because he is an incompetent. It just takes a while to filter through.
I see no justification for any Labour MP who failed to vote for May's Deal to now support any deal brought to Parliament by Johnson. His vile nature and the contempt he has shown for Parliament should be sufficient to rule that out. Any Labour MP who does go along with it , should face deselection - and have the Whip withdrawn.
He went to school with Paul McCartney and George Harrison. Remarkably really that all three had such memorable voices, but Peter Sisson's voice was a lot posher! (or posh to me at least).
Macca and George never lost their quintessential Scouse.
I liked the bit about being a bus driver in his uni holidays, which he said prepared him for difficult interview guests.
If the UK expanded wind capacity so that we have the ability to produce sufficient to export plenty on the windiest days, France could then schedule nuclear plant downtime around UK low pressure systems.
But not too low pressure as the wind turbines would have to be shut down to protect them.
I see no justification for any Labour MP who failed to vote for May's Deal to now support any deal brought to Parliament by Johnson. His vile nature and the contempt he has shown for Parliament should be sufficient to rule that out. Any Labour MP who does go along with it , should face deselection - and have the Whip withdrawn.
I think my MP will vote for it but he's atypical, and I'm amazed he still has the whip quite honestly !
He's off to the Lords when there's an election anyway.
Speaking before he saw the plan, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar told the Irish Parliament: "What we are hearing is not encouraging and would not be the basis for agreement."
Yes, but now the plan is out ?
At first glance it looks like Johnson has chucked the DUP under a bus to me. Which would be absolubtely the correct strategy at this point in time if indeed that's what he has done.
ExLibDem #JC4PM #StopFracking 🏳️🌈🔯Ⓥ @ExLibDemNowLab · 9h 64% of Lib Dem voters back putting Corbyn in power temporarily
Jo Swinson is refusing and playing games
All I can say to them 64% of Lib Dem voters do what I did quit the party come join us in Labour the door is open and welcoming.
Do fuck off. I was essentially told to do the same from the party for having the temerity to mount a defence of Tony Blair and suggest that Corbyn needed to address the Press TV and mural issues. The current Labour Party is anything but “welcoming”.
Perhaps your opening gambit of "Do fuck off" makes you more suitable for the Tories or Tory Swinsons accept homophobes and allcomers party
Speaking before he saw the plan, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar told the Irish Parliament: "What we are hearing is not encouraging and would not be the basis for agreement."
Yes, but now the plan is out ?
At first glance it looks like Johnson has chucked the DUP under a bus to me. Which would be absolubtely the correct strategy at this point in time if indeed that's what he has done.
Being a Theresa May 2.0 using vapid soundbites telling everyone on all sides what they want to hear, allowing the whip to completely be ignored with impunity and standing for nothing at all won't win one back either. Boris is making clear what he stands for and people can either vote for it or not, but at least he stands for something other than "Brexit means Brexit" and allowing Grieve and JRM to completely ignore the whip from opposite sides of the argument under the same colours as the leader.
'Sensible people' means what it says.
I've no idea what your second paragraph is saying, but certainly no-one would cite Theresa May as a great leader or speech writer.
In the context of Brexit the sensible MPs who want to respect what the country voted for are still in the party.
The 21 extremists who voted against the party whip are not the sensible ones. They are a tiny minority.
"extremists"? You Brexit obsessives really have lost the plot! Get it through your skull, Brexit is a far right construct, based often, though not always on xenophobia and often racism. It is an extremists' creed. Being against it does not make anyone an extremists except form a very very warped perspective. By the way, most, if not all, voted for the WA. Moderates mate. You might dislike them, but only a complete idiot would describe them politically as extremists.
if you draw an X axis and plot on it number of integrations with other countries on it such as FTA's, security cooperation, shared borders, free movement of people. Then plot no of countries with amount of deals on the Y axis.
You will get North Korea with the lowest at one extreme and the EU at the other end.
The centrist position for a country is in the middle with a decent number of FTA;s, security deals with key partners, etc.
The is what the Pro-EU people have never understood, the EU is pushing the barriers it is not a compromise position, this is why countries in the EU have opt-outs.
I see no justification for any Labour MP who failed to vote for May's Deal to now support any deal brought to Parliament by Johnson. His vile nature and the contempt he has shown for Parliament should be sufficient to rule that out. Any Labour MP who does go along with it , should face deselection - and have the Whip withdrawn.
So much for respecting the referendum result.
Why would a deal from Theresa May be less acceptable to them than one offered by a monster such as Johnson?
I see no justification for any Labour MP who failed to vote for May's Deal to now support any deal brought to Parliament by Johnson. His vile nature and the contempt he has shown for Parliament should be sufficient to rule that out. Any Labour MP who does go along with it , should face deselection - and have the Whip withdrawn.
So much for respecting the referendum result.
The referendum result has not been respected by the Brexiteers. They want the most extreme version, so that is not in anyway "respecting" the narrowness of the result. People who are against Brexit have no reason any longer to "respect" a vote which was marginal at best and had questionable credibility at worst. Brexiteers could have all voted for the WA. They decided they wanted no-deal, and therefore have zero respect for the electorate.
Those of the 21 who backed May's deal are suggesting they'll back a Boris deal.
ERG have strongly hinted they'll back a deal if the DUP does.
Seems like a healthy majority in Parliament to back this deal now! So now its down to just the EU. Can they swallow some humble pie and accept a democratic and quite reasonable compromise?
The one thing Johnson has done is shown the EU that the UK will not be dictated to - yet. You have to give him that. But it means a No Deal Brexit. What puzzles me is how he thinks this benefits the UK given that it means no FTAs with our biggest export markets (the EU27 and the US), less freedom for UK citizens and businesses, and government reliance on the goodwill of others to keep multiple things flowing whose seamless operation we currently take for granted.
I guess you can call it the Black Knight strategy.
ExLibDem #JC4PM #StopFracking 🏳️🌈🔯Ⓥ @ExLibDemNowLab · 9h 64% of Lib Dem voters back putting Corbyn in power temporarily
Jo Swinson is refusing and playing games
All I can say to them 64% of Lib Dem voters do what I did quit the party come join us in Labour the door is open and welcoming.
Do fuck off. I was essentially told to do the same from the party for having the temerity to mount a defence of Tony Blair and suggest that Corbyn needed to address the Press TV and mural issues. The current Labour Party is anything but “welcoming”.
Perhaps your opening gambit of "Do fuck off" makes you more suitable for the Tories or Tory Swinsons accept homophobes and allcomers party
What is the Hamas policy on homosexuality? Can one be both present and involved?
If the UK expanded wind capacity so that we have the ability to produce sufficient to export plenty on the windiest days, France could then schedule nuclear plant downtime around UK low pressure systems.
But not too low pressure as the wind turbines would have to be shut down to protect them.
But when it's too windy in one place, it's the perfect amount of wind a few dozen miles down the way.
I think there are things to work on with the UK government offer. For example, the principle of consent is consistent with the Good Friday Agreement, so it's something that could be talked about. One would suspect that the EU/Ireland would want the default option to be reversed, or the mechanism might be changed to a referendum, but it's something that could be negotiated.
The difficulty is with customs. Creating a customs border on the island of Ireland does massive damage to the all-Ireland economy, particularly in agriculture. It creates massive pressure on the EU to drop agriculture customs tariffs during negotiations for a FTA, and to conclude those negotiations before the end of the transition period in just under 14 months.
It would enable the UK to use Ireland as a bargaining chip in the next stage of negotiations. I would be very surprised if the EU were to concede on that issue, but if they did then Johnson's bravado would have won the day.
Perhaps a naive question with respect to the Northern Ireland consent issue: why not make the default option the existing arrangement, with NI following EU rules, and only default to UK rules if there is cross community consent? From a democratic accountability point of view it seems equivalent, since in the one case where the two set ups would differ (where one community wants UK rules and the other wants EU rules) it is not clear what NI actually wants to consent to and so maintaining the status quo seems reasonable. That is after all how the current constitutional arrangements for NI function. Removing the DUP veto would make it much more likely that the EU and Irish would go for it.
I see no justification for any Labour MP who failed to vote for May's Deal to now support any deal brought to Parliament by Johnson. His vile nature and the contempt he has shown for Parliament should be sufficient to rule that out. Any Labour MP who does go along with it , should face deselection - and have the Whip withdrawn.
So much for respecting the referendum result.
Why would a deal from Theresa May be less acceptable to them than one offered by a monster such as Johnson?
He went to school with Paul McCartney and George Harrison. Remarkably really that all three had such memorable voices, but Peter Sisson's voice was a lot posher! (or posh to me at least).
Macca and George never lost their quintessential Scouse.
Guess which one of those three went to Oxbridge?
I have huge admiration for Peter Sissons for his work on Hillsborough Independent Panel.
Sad to see Morrissey supporting a fascist party. Odd to think that a man who once hated Thatcher for being so right wing is now far to the right of her.
It’s been in the pipeline for a long time though. I bought ‘Viva Hate’ around when it came out in ‘88 or ‘89, I was about 14 or 15, and remember thinking that ‘Bengali in Platforms’ wasn’t quite right, despite Mozza’s protestations that the track was “ironic”. I’ve not changed my view since then.
He's a good example of someone where you have to divorce the man from his art (though sometimes the man infected the art). Unfortunately for those who regard the two as inextricably linked, his best work is sublime.
It was Jonny Marr’s guitar playing which made it sublime.
Marr went on to form a part of the best incarnation of The The and half of Electronic.
Comments
There seem to be very few on here who have ever done any negotiating or, if they have, were pretty poor at it. The negotiating dance has to be performed until the music stops and (I think) the band is still playing.
The right are at least equally represented on twitter
https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1179387914016509953
"I've been a member of this house I've been a member of this house when Tory MPs worked their will to the immediate foreign prime the immediate female prime minister"
Fuck knows what she was on about, but I enjoyed it.
Yes. Or more simply Chaotic Brexit.
2nd para -
I think if we do Orderly Brexit (WA) the transition period will just carry on until the Deal (FR) is done. If we do Chaotic Brexit (no WA) I really have no clue what will happen but my sense is that it will work to our detriment.
I do worry the public as a whole fail to grasp this. Leaving on "No Deal" (whether you support it or not) is very, very far from ending the issue and allowing people to get on with a meaningful domestic agenda.
If that does not happen then all of this will have been a monumental waste of time and energy.
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/business/plans-to-build-500m-electricity-link-from-france-to-lee-on-the-solent-are-revealed-to-ensure-the-uk-s-lights-do-not-go-out-1-7065606
Grim fare from him.
From "Meat is Murder", easily in the top 10 albums of the 80s, to just another incel fascist. Such a decline.
@ExLibDemNowLab
·
9h
64% of Lib Dem voters back putting Corbyn in power temporarily
Jo Swinson is refusing and playing games
All I can say to them 64% of Lib Dem voters do what I did quit the party come join us in Labour the door is open and welcoming.
What would Labour do - negotiate a future relationship then put it to a referendum with rejoin as an option; or just get on negotiating the future relationship.
There used to be a time when a belief in mixed market economies was acceptable in the Labour party. So I think I'll probably vote Lib Dem next time thanks.
Heart of potato ...
Being a Theresa May 2.0 using vapid soundbites telling everyone on all sides what they want to hear, allowing the whip to completely be ignored with impunity and standing for nothing at all won't win one back either. Boris is making clear what he stands for and people can either vote for it or not, but at least he stands for something other than "Brexit means Brexit" and allowing Grieve and JRM to completely ignore the whip from opposite sides of the argument under the same colours as the leader.
"When you're dancing, and laughing, and finally living, hear my voice in your head and think of me kindly"
I've no idea what your second paragraph is saying, but certainly no-one would cite Theresa May as a great leader or speech writer.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36351149
Johnson appeals to those who buy spin & marketing far more.
Not difficult to work out which will have the greater chance of success in my opinion.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-proposals-for-a-new-protocol-on-irelandnorthern-ireland?utm_source=6f722822-2a09-4a24-9beb-1a396a349e84&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
The 21 extremists who voted against the party whip are not the sensible ones. They are a tiny minority.
The UK negotiators didn't do their homework.
Unfortunately the British public turned out to be more interested in how he looked eating a bacon sandwich.
Korean golfer Bio Kim given three-year ban for middle finger gesture - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/49904818
At first glance it looks like Johnson has chucked the DUP under a bus to me. Which would be absolubtely the correct strategy at this point in time if indeed that's what he has done.
I don't think so.
It's a fun cheeky policy.
Or I thought it was. But clearly not.
I don't see a big gulf between my economic policies and substantial parts of the Labour Party (hell, I overlap with both Labour and Conservatives economically), but as soon as you defend capitalism as the default organising principle of the economy, it's like a red mist descends and I'm suddenly a Tory.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201719/ldselect/ldeucom/63/6308.htm
He went to school with Paul McCartney and George Harrison. Remarkably really that all three had such memorable voices, but Peter Sisson's voice was a lot posher! (or posh to me at least).
Macca and George never lost their quintessential Scouse.
Quite nerve-wracking really.
Anyway wish me luck.
It's ridiculous in itself, but particularly so that a man who wants the job permanently is asking for it on a temporary basis.
He's off to the Lords when there's an election anyway.
Which is why I expect Labour MPs won't back down!
If you are a Labour MP, whether Leaver or Remainer, you really want to be returned as an MP in the forthcoming GE.
And the best guarantee of that is to get Jezza in to No 10.
You will get North Korea with the lowest at one extreme and the EU at the other end.
The centrist position for a country is in the middle with a decent number of FTA;s, security deals with key partners, etc.
The is what the Pro-EU people have never understood, the EU is pushing the barriers it is not a compromise position, this is why countries in the EU have opt-outs.
Those of the 21 who backed May's deal are suggesting they'll back a Boris deal.
ERG have strongly hinted they'll back a deal if the DUP does.
Seems like a healthy majority in Parliament to back this deal now! So now its down to just the EU. Can they swallow some humble pie and accept a democratic and quite reasonable compromise?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
Tories - No because of Brexit mainly now.
Labour - Doubt Corbyn and his fans would appreciate it.
Lib Dems - https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1177196852791435264
The difficulty is with customs. Creating a customs border on the island of Ireland does massive damage to the all-Ireland economy, particularly in agriculture. It creates massive pressure on the EU to drop agriculture customs tariffs during negotiations for a FTA, and to conclude those negotiations before the end of the transition period in just under 14 months.
It would enable the UK to use Ireland as a bargaining chip in the next stage of negotiations. I would be very surprised if the EU were to concede on that issue, but if they did then Johnson's bravado would have won the day.
I have huge admiration for Peter Sissons for his work on Hillsborough Independent Panel.