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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,805
    edited September 2019
    The Govebot's powerpack is shot, needs some 'stimulation'.

    https://twitter.com/josephballs_/status/1177094193170255872?s=20
  • Byronic said:

    Blue_rog said:

    To Brexiteers - serious question.

    What would be wrong with an NI only backstop?

    It's a de facto annexation of part of our territory. No PM could agree to hand over part of the UK to a foreign power
    It really isn't. Stop over-dramatising. It's this kind of hyperbole which is preventing us from finding a sensible solution.

    Northern Ireland is a very special case, with special laws, and special status. Not quite as British as the mainland, but certainly not 100% Irish either. All this is acknowledged - legally, by Britain - in the GFA. It's also acknowledged culturally in the way all Ireland has one rugby team, for example.

    So an evolution in this special status isn't some betrayal, and it isn't a horror. It's especially not horrific when such a status would be approved by Stormont, the elected government of Northern Ireland.

    The road to Belfast will be the road that leads us out of the chaos, eventually, if we ever take it.
    Not entirely snarkily, a possible path through this is:

    1) Credibly threaten No Deal
    2) Border Poll as per GFA
    3) NI problem solved, Brexit away!
  • Cyclefree said:


    I too dislike this Empire nostalgia bollocks. But during WW2 Britain had the resources of an Empire behind it and this meant that is was not simply one little island fighting by itself, as some of the myth-making from some would have us believe.

    I have never quite followed the reasoning of those (and there are many) who enjoy taking the opportunity to snipe from the sidelines about a period of history that the UK is rightly proud.

    It is difficult to arrive at any conclusion other than it is small-minded pettiness and a self-loathing projecting outwards.

    The other answer of course is that the pride shown is often coming from people on the opposite side of the debate so descending in to the gutter about WW2 is legitimate if it means a point might be scored.

    A very sad, and unfortunate, consequence of the Brexit debate running on far past its reasonable point of conclusion.
    Fair enough to be proud of our actions - but the problem for the UK is that we can't seem to move on.

    BTW Pandora's Boxit will never be over in our lifetimes.
  • Andrew said:

    eek said:

    I think a lot of people are working on the basis that Boris can simply walk away from being PM to avoid sending the letter.

    I'm not so he can - and that as we need a PM Boris remains it until another person is nominated to be PM.


    This is probably right. Again points to Ken Clarke - he wouldn't exactly command the confidence of the house, but the opposition also aren't going to bring him down while he goes through the extension process. That might be enough for HM.
    No, it cannot be Ken Clarke. For a start, he wants to negotiate a new deal which involves running a proper government for months. Second, he would be rejected by both Boris and Jeremy Corbyn.

    If you must look for a neutral figure, it has to be someone Corbyn and Boris can accept, at least passively.
    Even a referendum would take 6 odd months to sort out. So if we get a GNU they'll have to do stuff outside of Brexit.

    Like a budget etc etc.
    Which is why there cannot be a GNU. It would need to be a splash and dash, extension and election minority Labour government, or the current minority Conservative government. There cannot be a GNU coalition because of the other stuff it would need to do and, as you say, the time it would need, not to mention there are not the votes for any solution nixed by Corbyn or Boris.
  • I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    Doubt it would work.
  • Tabman said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Shocking for the Conservatives. The more educated you are the less likely you are to be Conservative. One expects this with the Brexit Party, but not Conservative. It would be interesting to see a similar graph/datset from 10 years ago.

    The impact of this is likely to be medium and long term. Thought leadership is an important aspect of marketing. The more educated generally have a greater platform to be heard and influence others, and to be seen to be reasonable. The Conservatives really are fucked. Thanks Boris!
    I think the educated followed the Conservatives when they were the party of economic and social liberalism (similarly Blair). Both are positions of reason. Now they've vacated the field, there's a huge opportunity for another party to capitalise on this.

    Well Labour have vacated the field too, so it only leaves the LibDems. I hope they make the most of it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,972
    edited September 2019
    tlg86 said:

    This thread is getting a lot of interest on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1176839648406122497

    Could do with The Human League playing when reading that.

    I notice that not many other politicians are laying into Boris here. Can't think why...
    You were working as a model in a hacking firm
    When I met you
    I picked you out I shook you up and turned you around
    Turned you into someone new

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,994
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    The problem is that the way Britain thinks of it is based on a misunderstanding of our own history. So the big myth about Britain fighting alone against the forces of evil.

    Balls. We were not alone. We largely overlook the contribution of Polish airmen, for instance, to the Battle of Britain. So we overestimate our ability to cope on our own and forget that most of what we've achieved in our history has been in conjunction with our friends and allies.

    In 1940 we were alone, the contibution of Free forces while noteworthy didnt save the country. We didnt win the war either, we were simply on the winning side. the USSR did most of the dying and the USA most of the financing. Our contribution was probably providing most of the jump off points for freeing Western Europe.
    We had our Empire behind us in 1940. It was not plucky Britain standing alone. We have mythologised our role in WW2 and it is skewing our perceptions of our standing in the world. Britain has achieved much in history but more often than not it has been as a result of working with friends and allies.
    Yes, and Churchill said as much in his "we will fight them on the beaches ... we will never surrender speech". It continues:
    and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.


    So I am agreeing with @Cyclefree we were not alone, but disagreeing this is somehow a secret.
    It's not a secret but it's not something that gets much airing these days. Ask the Poles if they feel that their contribution to the Battle of Britain gets much recognition by those who think that entering into an agreement with the EU is a "surrender".
    Not to mention the cracking of the Enigma ciphers.
    It does get an airing from time to time, though.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,900
    edited September 2019
    eek said:



    At most Boris can say he wishes to resign so please send for Jeremy Corbyn. If Corbyn has any sense he will say that he cannot command a majority so Boris has to remain there until he can find a majority.

    Boris can say that the Tories will abstain, so Corby will be PM. Corby doesn't need "to command a majority" (as you put it) to be PM. He simply needs to avoid losing a confidence vote, if one is even called.

    Also, from Corby's POV this is an enormous opportunity. Far, far better he gets in to No 10 and makes some exciting pronouncements on taxing people who do too much air travel, or writing off all student debt, or something.

    Why is Corby going to turn it down so that Margaret Beckett or some such can be installed ahead of him ?

    This is in Corby's interests and Boris' interests. From the Tory's POV, Corby can alway be taken down later when he has got rid of the Ticking Bomb.
  • https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Any idea what proportion of the population each group represents?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,387
    edited September 2019

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    I predict almost nothing will happen with No Deal, either particularly good or bad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,994

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    Doubt it would work.
    I don't think so, either.
    The two sides would still spend the next decade arguing over who was to blame.
  • I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
  • Mr. Noo, that's an odd comment.

    The Roman Empire isn't around any more. That doesn't mean it was a failure.

    England, depending how you measure it, has been around for one and a half thousand years. Is it a failure?

    Empires (using the term very broadly) rise, and fall, ebb and flow all the time, throughout all human history. Just because something doesn't last forever in an immutable form doesn't mean it's worthless. Times change, and so does the world.

    The poor struggle to get rich. The rich get lazy. Rinse and repeat.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    The Govebot's powerpack is shot, needs some 'stimulation'.

    https://twitter.com/josephballs_/status/1177094193170255872?s=20

    He looks pissed
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,028

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Any idea what proportion of the population each group represents?
    Since the University reforms and expansion, Level 4 is getting larger. 50% now isn't it?
  • ‪My sense is that on Wednesday morning Labour had lost millions of tactical votes. Now, on Thursday morning, Boris Johnson has managed to hand many of them back. ‬
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322
    Tabman said:

    Cyclefree said:


    The Battle of Britain was won as a result of the efforts of people like my father, a Squadron Leader during that time. He came from Ireland to volunteer. He was an immigrant, like my mother, and some on the Brexit side have come out with views and language about immigrants which has been disgraceful and which shames this country.

    I understand volunteers who fought for the "Brits" didn't necessarily get a rapturous reception on their return. Unless your father was from the North?
    No, from the South. You're right that Ireland overlooked their contribution. Not a glorious hour in Ireland's history.

    But in my family that was not so. My great uncle fought and died in WW1 - he was in the RAMC - and is buried just outside Calais. I have his war diary. My aunt also worked for the government and was posted to Japan at the end of the war.

    My father lived here after the war. He worked and paid for his youngest sister's education. As the eldest (of 8) he was expected to help out the family.
  • Nigelb said:

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    Doubt it would work.
    I don't think so, either.
    The two sides would still spend the next decade arguing over who was to blame.
    It would do one thing. It would shoot the No Deal fox dead.

    Of course, the only other options would be EEA or Rejoin. If they would have us back.

    If I was them, I wouldn't. I would tell us to go to hell.
  • Andrew said:

    eek said:

    I think a lot of people are working on the basis that Boris can simply walk away from being PM to avoid sending the letter.

    I'm not so he can - and that as we need a PM Boris remains it until another person is nominated to be PM.


    This is probably right. Again points to Ken Clarke - he wouldn't exactly command the confidence of the house, but the opposition also aren't going to bring him down while he goes through the extension process. That might be enough for HM.
    No, it cannot be Ken Clarke. For a start, he wants to negotiate a new deal which involves running a proper government for months. Second, he would be rejected by both Boris and Jeremy Corbyn.

    If you must look for a neutral figure, it has to be someone Corbyn and Boris can accept, at least passively.
    Even a referendum would take 6 odd months to sort out. So if we get a GNU they'll have to do stuff outside of Brexit.

    Like a budget etc etc.
    Which is why there cannot be a GNU. It would need to be a splash and dash, extension and election minority Labour government, or the current minority Conservative government. There cannot be a GNU coalition because of the other stuff it would need to do and, as you say, the time it would need, not to mention there are not the votes for any solution nixed by Corbyn or Boris.
    I am not sure the current government has been doing much for the last 12 months
  • I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
    Fine. Give it to them.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,943

    Cyclefree said:


    I too dislike this Empire nostalgia bollocks. But during WW2 Britain had the resources of an Empire behind it and this meant that is was not simply one little island fighting by itself, as some of the myth-making from some would have us believe.

    I have never quite followed the reasoning of those (and there are many) who enjoy taking the opportunity to snipe from the sidelines about a period of history that the UK is rightly proud.

    It is difficult to arrive at any conclusion other than it is small-minded pettiness and a self-loathing projecting outwards.

    The other answer of course is that the pride shown is often coming from people on the opposite side of the debate so descending in to the gutter about WW2 is legitimate if it means a point might be scored.

    A very sad, and unfortunate, consequence of the Brexit debate running on far past its reasonable point of conclusion.
    One would find some pride in WW2, but Cyclefree's point is more that it is a different sort of pride, with a different conclusion.

    Today Britain is not so much a nation alone, but remains one of a small number of the world's great crossroads nations, already a Singapore. For good or ill, our links, our nations, our EU links, our Commonwealth links, our Anglosphere links, our financial centre and defence links, even the shadier ones like tax haven links, strengthen the UK and are part of what we are, perhaps the world's leading soft power. Cutting any of those links weakens us.

    And so it was with WW2. Not only did we make our own sacrifices, but we are instrumental and our links are instrumental in corralling the Alliance that won that war, whether that was done for our interests or helping along the self interest of others. I can be proud of that in the round.

    The breaking of external links is to be mourned because it diminishes us. Yet, I can see how the list of links above in the context of 2019, increasingly means London / cities to the world. If we are link builders, a fulcrum nation, we need to re learn how to link to ourselves, define what all parts of Britain are actually FOR in the 21st Century.
  • https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Any idea what proportion of the population each group represents?
    That would be interesting, but less important than the fact that over a period of time, educated people have a massively disproportionate effect on opinion than the less well educated.
  • Brom said:

    Scott_P said:
    Lewis Goodall is a joke. Essentially Corbyn's mouthpiece. No idea how a mainstream channel can justify a socialist as a news correspondent (we all know how Paul Mason turned out).

    You clearly have not read what’s written about Corbyn!!!

  • This thread is getting a lot of interest on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1176839648406122497

    Interesting. So Milo Yiannopoulos is now involved. But wasn't he the tech guy for 'Telegraph Blogs' at around that time? So perhaps Boris just called in favour by roping him in.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    Even a referendum would take 6 odd months to sort out. So if we get a GNU they'll have to do stuff outside of Brexit.

    Indeed, I wasn't really thinking of a GNU. Just a temporary caretaker PM to do the extension dirty, so Johnson can posture as the great Brexit defender.

    The other scenario has distinct dangers - Corbyn as PM for a few days to request the extension, then VoNCed and election. He might not be able to pass any laws, but the PM still has plenty of power, not to mention legitimising him.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
    Fine. Give it to them.
    I don't want the extremists to get hold of my country.
  • Cyclefree said:


    If he were genuine in trying to deliver Brexit he would not have tied himself to a date. He would have come up with a realistic negotiation strategy, explained it to his party and the Commons and explained that he would need the time to get this right, that it was important to get this right, that Brexit needed to be delivered properly in order to work. That is the way to get Brexit done.

    He did none of this. He picked a date, worked backwards and is now lashing out at anyone and anything that stands in his way.

    And yes the fact that he is copying Trump is a legitimate criticism to make of a man who has made so much of his admiration of the man. We are entitled to look at who he admires and the tactics he adopts to assess his behaviour. Just as we - and you - have done in relation to Corbyn. Sauce for the goose and all that.


    Talk of 'compromise' is just a fig leaf for remainer MPs to keep delaying Brexit in the hope that an opportunity presents itself to overturn the referendum.

    If you offered MPs an anonymous consequence free outcome I would happily bet my house that the choices would be:

    1. Revoke
    2. R2




    15. Honouring the referendum result



    Voters are wise to all this now which is why it has sadly become a symbolic fight to the death.

    Well done remainers.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,890
    edited September 2019

    I watched a fair amount of the debate last night and the subsequent coverage strikes me as lurid. Sure, Geoffrey Cox did a bit of a cabaret act (and it certainly made for watchable theatre) but I think the reaction to Boris was overblown. His comments on Jo Cox were a reaction to a question, not brilliant, but probably in part due to tiredness. In the end it descended into endless repetitions of the same points. Wonder why they bothered reconvening. Only innovation was the sensitivity to language, which looked rather pre-arranged. Notable how few MPs were left by the time Boris's session was over. The one who stood out for me was Gove - lucid, on top of his brief, and scrupulously courteous.

    Yeah, I too watched much of it and I agree with your observations. The offence-taking outrage exhibited in the Commons yesterday was simultaneously overblown and pathetic. Both Cox and Johnson held their ground and gave creditable performances.
    Douglas Murray describes it well in the article people have referred to .
  • Cyclefree said:

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
    Fine. Give it to them.
    I don't want the extremists to get hold of my country.
    Too late I am sorry to say. We have all been driven to the extremes. The polarised opinion polls show it with their continuing near 50/50 split.

    We are all extremists now.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2019
    Andrew said:

    Even a referendum would take 6 odd months to sort out. So if we get a GNU they'll have to do stuff outside of Brexit.

    Indeed, I wasn't really thinking of a GNU. Just a temporary caretaker PM to do the extension dirty, so Johnson can posture as the great Brexit defender.

    The other scenario has distinct dangers - Corbyn as PM for a few days to request the extension, then VoNCed and election. He might not be able to pass any laws, but the PM still has plenty of power, not to mention legitimising him.
    Yes, and legitimisation is why Corbyn has offered purdah -- no other measures at all. There might be a chance of compromise on a minority Labour government under someone else but Corbyn would need to agree, so if you want to bet on it, look at the Corbynista wing and not Hattie or Mags.

    ETA there is not really the concept of a caretaker PM, it would need a whole caretaker government, which means Labour.
  • Cyclefree said:

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
    Fine. Give it to them.
    I don't want the extremists to get hold of my country.
    Hmmm, sadly I think they already largely have. :(
  • Cyclefree said:

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
    Fine. Give it to them.
    I don't want the extremists to get hold of my country.
    Yes, Beib's suggestion is pretty much giving Cummings what he wants. There are times when I sympathise but it's a dangerous road and no guarantee the extremists don't take over for the duration.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,387

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:
    Lewis Goodall is a joke. Essentially Corbyn's mouthpiece. No idea how a mainstream channel can justify a socialist as a news correspondent (we all know how Paul Mason turned out).

    You clearly have not read what’s written about Corbyn!!!

    He's anti-Tory and anti-Corbyn.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    edited September 2019

    Byronic said:

    Blue_rog said:

    To Brexiteers - serious question.

    What would be wrong with an NI only backstop?

    It's a de facto annexation of part of our territory. No PM could agree to hand over part of the UK to a foreign power
    It really isn't. Stop over-dramatising. It's this kind of hyperbole which is preventing us from finding a sensible solution.

    Northern Ireland is a very special case, with special laws, and special status. Not quite as British as the mainland, but certainly not 100% Irish either. All this is acknowledged - legally, by Britain - in the GFA. It's also acknowledged culturally in the way all Ireland has one rugby team, for example.

    So an evolution in this special status isn't some betrayal, and it isn't a horror. It's especially not horrific when such a status would be approved by Stormont, the elected government of Northern Ireland.

    The road to Belfast will be the road that leads us out of the chaos, eventually, if we ever take it.
    Not entirely snarkily, a possible path through this is:

    1) Credibly threaten No Deal
    2) Border Poll as per GFA
    3) NI problem solved, Brexit away!
    Calling a border poll on the basis that polls show No Deal would mean a majority for reunification should be part of the plan to show they're serious about No Deal. ;)
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:
    Lewis Goodall is a joke. Essentially Corbyn's mouthpiece. No idea how a mainstream channel can justify a socialist as a news correspondent (we all know how Paul Mason turned out).
    Maybe, but don't shoot the messenger if the message is sound, which it is.
    It's not though is it. The Tories are nothing like The Republicans unless you squint an awful lot. It's just twitter hyperbole by a journalist with nothing interesting to say
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    Cyclefree said:


    If he were genuine in trying to deliver Brexit he would not have tied himself to a date. He would have come up with a realistic negotiation strategy, explained it to his party and the Commons and explained that he would need the time to get this right, that it was important to get this right, that Brexit needed to be delivered properly in order to work. That is the way to get Brexit done.

    He did none of this. He picked a date, worked backwards and is now lashing out at anyone and anything that stands in his way.

    And yes the fact that he is copying Trump is a legitimate criticism to make of a man who has made so much of his admiration of the man. We are entitled to look at who he admires and the tactics he adopts to assess his behaviour. Just as we - and you - have done in relation to Corbyn. Sauce for the goose and all that.


    Talk of 'compromise' is just a fig leaf for remainer MPs to keep delaying Brexit in the hope that an opportunity presents itself to overturn the referendum.

    If you offered MPs an anonymous consequence free outcome I would happily bet my house that the choices would be:

    1. Revoke
    2. R2




    15. Honouring the referendum result



    Voters are wise to all this now which is why it has sadly become a symbolic fight to the death.

    Well done remainers.
    I take it options 3-14 are all softer Brexit options that don't match your preferred burn the country No Deal approach.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:
    Lewis Goodall is a joke. Essentially Corbyn's mouthpiece. No idea how a mainstream channel can justify a socialist as a news correspondent (we all know how Paul Mason turned out).

    You clearly have not read what’s written about Corbyn!!!

    He's anti-Tory and anti-Corbyn.

    He’s anti-Johnson and anti-Corbyn, undoubtedly. In that, he reflects the country at large.

  • Cyclefree said:


    If he were genuine in trying to deliver Brexit he would not have tied himself to a date. He would have come up with a realistic negotiation strategy, explained it to his party and the Commons and explained that he would need the time to get this right, that it was important to get this right, that Brexit needed to be delivered properly in order to work. That is the way to get Brexit done.

    He did none of this. He picked a date, worked backwards and is now lashing out at anyone and anything that stands in his way.

    And yes the fact that he is copying Trump is a legitimate criticism to make of a man who has made so much of his admiration of the man. We are entitled to look at who he admires and the tactics he adopts to assess his behaviour. Just as we - and you - have done in relation to Corbyn. Sauce for the goose and all that.


    Talk of 'compromise' is just a fig leaf for remainer MPs to keep delaying Brexit in the hope that an opportunity presents itself to overturn the referendum.

    If you offered MPs an anonymous consequence free outcome I would happily bet my house that the choices would be:

    1. Revoke
    2. R2




    15. Honouring the referendum result



    Voters are wise to all this now which is why it has sadly become a symbolic fight to the death.

    Well done remainers.
    Oh dear, once again a leavefanatic/Boris fan-boy has to be reminded that the WA was defeated thanks to Bozo, the DRG and the DUP.
  • Cyclefree said:

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    What if people turn even more strongly to nationalism in response to no deal hardship?
    Which is very likely. Increased sense of injustice and outrage against the foreigner. Corbyn hopes that it will be outrage at the system. No-deal is the chaos that the extremists crave.
    Fine. Give it to them.
    I don't want the extremists to get hold of my country.
    Yes, Beib's suggestion is pretty much giving Cummings what he wants. There are times when I sympathise but it's a dangerous road and no guarantee the extremists don't take over for the duration.
    If only we could find someone to lead a political party against unelected bureaucrats leading us without democratic control and parliamentary sovereignty.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,897

    ‪My sense is that on Wednesday morning Labour had lost millions of tactical votes. Now, on Thursday morning, Boris Johnson has managed to hand many of them back. ‬

    I pray that you are right.

    Obi Wan Tacticobi - it's our only hope.

    The alternative scenario is a truly ghastly prospect.
  • Noo said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,251
    edited September 2019

    Cyclefree said:


    If he were genuine in trying to deliver Brexit he would not have tied himself to a date. He would have come up with a realistic negotiation strategy, explained it to his party and the Commons and explained that he would need the time to get this right, that it was important to get this right, that Brexit needed to be delivered properly in order to work. That is the way to get Brexit done.

    He did none of this. He picked a date, worked backwards and is now lashing out at anyone and anything that stands in his way.

    And yes the fact that he is copying Trump is a legitimate criticism to make of a man who has made so much of his admiration of the man. We are entitled to look at who he admires and the tactics he adopts to assess his behaviour. Just as we - and you - have done in relation to Corbyn. Sauce for the goose and all that.


    Talk of 'compromise' is just a fig leaf for remainer MPs to keep delaying Brexit in the hope that an opportunity presents itself to overturn the referendum.

    If you offered MPs an anonymous consequence free outcome I would happily bet my house that the choices would be:

    1. Revoke
    2. R2




    15. Honouring the referendum result



    Voters are wise to all this now which is why it has sadly become a symbolic fight to the death.

    Well done remainers.
    That is certainly the belief of most leavers but it is simply untrue. Over 5 in 6 MPs have voted for their flavour of Brexit to be implemented. The problem is they cant agree on the flavour and are all unwilling to compromise from the positions established last winter.

    The country are also willing to compromise. Soft Brexit is the second preference of most of the country. Only 14% of the country would consider it a very bad outcome. If our political leaders do it, we could quickly move on.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/29/search-median-voter-brexit
  • glwglw Posts: 8,869
    Nigelb said:

    Not to mention the cracking of the Enigma ciphers.It does get an airing from time to time, though.

    Cracking Enigma was only a part of Ultra. It wasn't even the most significant cryptographic attack, Purple (Japanese diplomatic traffic) and Fish (the cipher used by the German High Command) are arguably more important as they produced strategic level intelligence rather than the more tactically focused Enigma traffic.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,185
    Imagine the fuss MPs would be making had the populace taken to the streets at weekends for running battles with riot police.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    Scott_P said:
    That screen shot is a terrible look for Parliament. Where's the compromise on that face?
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Mr. Noo, that's an odd comment.

    The Roman Empire isn't around any more. That doesn't mean it was a failure.

    England, depending how you measure it, has been around for one and a half thousand years. Is it a failure?

    Empires (using the term very broadly) rise, and fall, ebb and flow all the time, throughout all human history. Just because something doesn't last forever in an immutable form doesn't mean it's worthless. Times change, and so does the world.

    I'll clarify a little. My apologies for not explicitly the technical meaning I was intending. I should have remembered that "nation state" is a term that's used somewhat more colloquially.

    The nation state I was referring to is a nineteenth century innovation. Prior to this, states have, of course, existed, but have gone through waves of radical changes to the way they are comprised. So you had princely states, kingly states, state-nations and nation states. It would take a whole book to go through their meanings, and why they came to prominence and declined again, but suffice to say the pre-empire England was radically different in most ways from the post-empire United Kingdom.
    My intention is to point out that the nation-state as a unit of political organisation is a failure, and there have been no historical examples of it working in the European context. You can argue for a couple of non-European cases, but their circumstances are radically different from that which exists, or can ever exist, in Europe.
    Given that there has been no time when a set of nation states has existed stably in Europe, my challenge is as follows: to those who want European disintegration, do you see the nation-state model as a destination (in which case, why do you think it could work when it already failed), or do you see a different international order (in which case, do tell).
  • Noo said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.
    Not necessarily, if you bollocks things up badly enough the prosperous and educated people will leave...
  • Cyclefree said:

    Not a glorious hour in Ireland's history.

    [snip]

    Viscount Cranborne, the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, wrote a letter in Feb 1945 to the War Cabinet regarding Irish-British collaboration during WW2:

    They agreed to our use of Lough Foyle for naval and air purposes. The ownership of the Lough is disputed, but the Irish authorities are tacitly not pressing their claim in present conditions and are also ignoring any flying by our aircraft over the Donegal shore of the Lough, which is necessary in certain wind conditions to enable flying boats to take off the Lough.
    They have agreed to use by our aircraft based on Lough Erne of a corridor over Irish territory and territorial waters for the purpose of flying out to the Atlantic.
    They have arranged for the immediate transmission to the United Kingdom Representative's Office in Dublin of reports of submarine activity received from their coast watching service.
    They arranged for the broadening of reports by their Air observation Corps of aircraft sighted over or approaching Southern Irish territory. (This does not include our aircraft using the corridor referred to in (b) above.)
    They arranged for the extinction of trade and business lighting in coastal towns where such lighting was alleged to afford a useful landmark for German aircraft.
    They have continued to supply us with meteorological reports.
    They have agreed to the use by our ships and aircraft of two wireless direction-finding stations at Malin Head.
    They have supplied particulars of German crashed aircraft and personnel crashed or washed ashore or arrested on land.
    They arranged for staff talks on the question of co-operation against a possible German invasion of Southern Ireland, and close contact has since been maintained between the respective military authorities.
    They continue to intern all German fighting personnel reaching Southern Ireland. On the other hand, though after protracted negotiations, Allied service personnel are now allowed to depart freely and full assistance is given in recovering damaged aircraft.
    Recently, in connection with the establishment of prisoner of war camps in Northern Ireland, they have agreed to return or at least intern any German prisoners who may escape from Northern Ireland across the border to Southern Ireland.
    They have throughout offered no objection to the departure from Southern Ireland of persons wishing to serve in the United Kingdom Forces nor to the journey on leave of such persons to and from Southern Ireland (in plain clothes).
    They have continued to exchange information with our security authorities regarding all aliens (including Germans) in Southern Ireland.
    They have (within the last few days) agreed to our establishing a Radar station in Southern Ireland for use against the latest form of submarine activity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II#The_Cranborne_Report
  • Cyclefree said:


    If he were genuine in trying to deliver Brexit he would not have tied himself to a date. He would have come up with a realistic negotiation strategy, explained it to his party and the Commons and explained that he would need the time to get this right, that it was important to get this right, that Brexit needed to be delivered properly in order to work. That is the way to get Brexit done.

    He did none of this. He picked a date, worked backwards and is now lashing out at anyone and anything that stands in his way.

    And yes the fact that he is copying Trump is a legitimate criticism to make of a man who has made so much of his admiration of the man. We are entitled to look at who he admires and the tactics he adopts to assess his behaviour. Just as we - and you - have done in relation to Corbyn. Sauce for the goose and all that.


    Talk of 'compromise' is just a fig leaf for remainer MPs to keep delaying Brexit in the hope that an opportunity presents itself to overturn the referendum.

    If you offered MPs an anonymous consequence free outcome I would happily bet my house that the choices would be:

    1. Revoke
    2. R2




    15. Honouring the referendum result



    Voters are wise to all this now which is why it has sadly become a symbolic fight to the death.

    Well done remainers.
    That is certainly the belief of most leavers but it is simply untrue. Over 5 in 6 MPs have voted for their flavour of Brexit to be implemented. The problem is they cant agree on the flavour and are all unwilling to compromise from the positions established last winter.
    Compromise?
    The ERG and the DUP talk of little else.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    nichomar said:

    The Govebot's powerpack is shot, needs some 'stimulation'.

    https://twitter.com/josephballs_/status/1177094193170255872?s=20

    He looks pissed
    It seemed many, many of the members present had been missing the various subsidised bars....
  • Jacques Chirac est mort.
  • Scott_P said:
    That screen shot is a terrible look for Parliament. Where's the compromise on that face?
    Of course it is a terrible shot. You make it sound like its a random representative photo of her speech. There is a reason he choose that image, just like the Gove stumbling images from the other side.
  • nichomar said:

    The Govebot's powerpack is shot, needs some 'stimulation'.

    https://twitter.com/josephballs_/status/1177094193170255872?s=20

    He looks pissed
    It seemed many, many of the members present had been missing the various subsidised bars....
    Drunk, overstimulated on icing sugar, but possibly just tired and doing that nodding off/snapping awake thing you do when standing up. It is hard to get too excited about Gove when the House of Commons is full of subsidised bars.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2019
    Andy_JS said:
    Weirdly, I don't remember the Mercury Prizes being dished out in the chamber of the House of Commons.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Any idea what proportion of the population each group represents?
    The age profile is quite important too. There older you are the less likely you are to have extensive formal education.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    edited September 2019

    I think we need to No Deal Brexit and burn the cancer of nationalism out. Lack of medicines, firms going bust, food shortages.

    The whole enchilada.

    Doubt it would work.
    I'm pretty sure that I will vote LD despite reservations about detailed policies as a moral statement against the two major parties without regard to tactical voting. I think this viewpoint could become significant the more the political heat is turned up. We could get some very interesting results!
  • HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
  • Andy_JS said:
    What elected position of responsibility does this man hold? Of course it is horrible and offensive and I think he made a big mistake in doing it.

    Surely the boundaries of taste and courtesy we demand from our PM, who is supposed to be the highest representative of the whole country, and an artist most people over 30 have never heard of are different? Is this where conservatives have ended up?
  • "Sorting it" indeed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,805
    edited September 2019

    Andy_JS said:
    What elected position of responsibility does this man hold? Of course it is horrible and offensive and I think he made a big mistake in doing it.

    Surely the boundaries of taste and courtesy we demand from our PM, who is supposed to be the highest representative of the whole country, and an artist most people over 30 have never heard of are different? Is this where conservatives have ended up?
    I'm sure this is honest offence taking from Tobes compared to the other kind.

    https://twitter.com/spectator/status/1177161795854843904?s=20
  • HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
    Once those graduates realise most of the decent jobs have Brexited so they need to roll over their holiday jobs at McDonalds, they will have pause for thought. There is a reason Boris and Cummings are desperate for an election before the reality of Brexit hits. Maybe they've seen the Yellowhammer docs.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Noo said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.
    Not really, the luvvies won't breed anywhere near the rate the working classes do.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Nigelb said:



    I'll agree to flippant, but I think smug is simply inaccurate.
    As for asshole - well, we're all in possession of one.

    My remark was intended to suggest that patience is both warranted and necessary. Just getting angry because Parliament 'isn't doing anything' is an exercise in futility.

    Okay fair enough, it is just annoying at this point to wait around and shout at each other for weeks, If I could magically move things along so crunch moments happen and we are (presumably) then into the election campaign it would be nice. It wasn't so much an angry comment, it was a fairly neutral one that I'm sure people who fully disagree with me on politics could agree with. Which is probably why I got slightly annoyed at the response...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,977
    Andy_JS said:
    Toby Young really is an absolute tool.

    Scott_P said:
    That screen shot is a terrible look for Parliament. Where's the compromise on that face?
    Rather a strange take on the events of last night.

    I am not Johnson's biggest fan so it was unsurprising that I was offended by his language. I daresay many of us contorted our faces in the same way as Ms Sheriff. I was nonetheless surprised at the obvious discomfort of many Conservative MPs around him.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322

    Cyclefree said:



    [snip]



    They agreed to our use of Lough Foyle for naval and air purposes. The ownership of the Lough is disputed, but the Irish authorities are tacitly not pressing their claim in present conditions and are also ignoring any flying by our aircraft over the Donegal shore of the Lough, which is necessary in certain wind conditions to enable flying boats to take off the Lough.
    They have agreed to use by our aircraft based on Lough Erne of a corridor over Irish territory and territorial waters for the purpose of flying out to the Atlantic.
    They have arranged for the immediate transmission to the United Kingdom Representative's Office in Dublin of reports of submarine activity received from their coast watching service.
    They arranged for the broadening of reports by their Air observation Corps of aircraft sighted over or approaching Southern Irish territory. (This does not include our aircraft using the corridor referred to in (b) above.)
    They arranged for the extinction of trade and business lighting in coastal towns where such lighting was alleged to afford a useful landmark for German aircraft.
    They have continued to supply us with meteorological reports.
    They have agreed to the use by our ships and aircraft of two wireless direction-finding stations at Malin Head.
    They have supplied particulars of German crashed aircraft and personnel crashed or washed ashore or arrested on land.
    They arranged for staff talks on the question of co-operation against a possible German invasion of Southern Ireland, and close contact has since been maintained between the respective military authorities.
    They continue to intern all German fighting personnel reaching Southern Ireland. On the other hand, though after protracted negotiations, Allied service personnel are now allowed to depart freely and full assistance is given in recovering damaged aircraft.
    Recently, in connection with the establishment of prisoner of war camps in Northern Ireland, they have agreed to return or at least intern any German prisoners who may escape from Northern Ireland across the border to Southern Ireland.
    They have throughout offered no objection to the departure from Southern Ireland of persons wishing to serve in the United Kingdom Forces nor to the journey on leave of such persons to and from Southern Ireland (in plain clothes).
    They have continued to exchange information with our security authorities regarding all aliens (including Germans) in Southern Ireland.
    They have (within the last few days) agreed to our establishing a Radar station in Southern Ireland for use against the latest form of submarine activity.

    I was referring to how Irishmen who fought with British forces were treated after they returned home after the war. They were I believe forbidden from working for the government. Not something of which Ireland can be proud.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568
    Interesting to see Bercow calling out Parliament for being "toxic" when he, more than anyone else, has helped to create the impasse we're currently at and whip up the toxicity.
  • Mr. Noo, interesting time period. Not my strong point, must admit.

    Mrs C, any failures from a no deal departure will be blamed by many on the lack of preparations by pro-EU Remainers, by May's capitulation on sequencing and so on.

    There's some legitimacy to parts of that, but the largely polarised politics we have now will mean that The Other Side will get blamed by an awful lot of people.

    Taking an old-fashioned view, I'd prefer the next events to be in the national interest, rather than as painful as possible to try and win a political victory.

    Sadly, I don't think that'll happen. The Prime Minister is a cretin. The Leader of the Opposition is a far left fool. The Lib Dems were making a lot of running before they got high off their own supply.

    Things will improve. But not yet.
  • Andy_JS said:
    Weirdly, I don't remember the Mercury Prizes being dished out in the chamber of the House of Commons.
    You're missing the point. Whilst one does not excuse the other, Labour MPs suggest they are concerned about all threats and intimations of violence towards members of the house, not just their own side.

    I'd argue that showing a decapitated head of the PM on national TV is an order of magnitude more serious than Boris' comment last night. Yet there was pretty much silence.

    In the current febrile atmosphere, it's the duty of everyone to condemn this sort of thing - even it's targeted at your enemies.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Any idea what proportion of the population each group represents?
    The age profile is quite important too. There older you are the less likely you are to have extensive formal education.
    Was wondering about this recently. Technical education, at the 'skilled' level, means being given instruction and, if having to write any essays etc, regurgitating facts. Opinions are not necessarily required. This is different from a university education where, in most subjects some at least reading around is necessary.

    In other words, the 'skilled' have been educated to accept what they are 'taught'.

    Probably a gross over-simplification, but that's the impression I've gained from my own education and looking at that of my children and grandchildren.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,695
    nichomar said:

    The Govebot's powerpack is shot, needs some 'stimulation'.

    https://twitter.com/josephballs_/status/1177094193170255872?s=20

    He looks pissed
    Stoned
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
    They won't vote Labour either no, as the poll shows the LDs now lead with graduates, not Labour
  • Brom said:

    Noo said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.
    Not really, the luvvies won't breed anywhere near the rate the working classes do.
    Speak for yourself. I do community theatre and I have 3 kids!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,459
    edited September 2019

    HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
    Notwithstanding the caricatures and the great helping of privilege behind the Brexit campaign, this would only be of any use to the Tories if there was no other alternative. Ironically, it's also actually Brexit that's provided the alternative itself, as it's reinvigorated the Liberal Democrats.

    It's actually possible to argue from this that the threat of conservative populism has in fact reinvigorated the entire 18th and 19th century dynamic of British politics ; urban Liberals and Whigs against often provincial / rural Tories. After universal suffrage and the mass labour movement there was no great, single national divide more potent than class identification alone, that could return us to the earlier stage - until Brexit.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,695
    Jester is in a Jezza trap and literally there is no way out
  • HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
    People on the right shouldn't bother with the class war stuff. Without an underlying theory of the class struggle and the economic system that generates it they just come off as having a chip on their shoulder.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,897

    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.

    Which won't remotely bother Boris Johnson.

    Also begs an interesting question -

    If a party draws most of its support from the dim, where is its incentive to enlighten?
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    So many remainers are complaining about Boris's bad behaviour.

    Lol. They had a perfectly reasonable, and amenable PM in May and they treated her like shit.

    So, why exactly should Boris "tone it down"? I say Boris should double down.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    GIN1138 said:

    Interesting to see Bercow calling out Parliament for being "toxic" when he, more than anyone else, has helped to create the impasse we're currently at and whip up the toxicity.

    Silly comment. You've gone giddy. Drink a glass of water.
  • On private schools, what Labour's ideologues have not noticed is that most private tuition now takes place in converted shops and offices. It is not just Boris's Eton and Seamus Milne's Winchester any more.

    It was reported today that a quarter of secondary pupils get some sort of private tuition and based on what I see round here on my walk to the fish and chip shop, there are an awful lot of younger children as well.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49826715

    But Labour is right that it should be a public scandal that underqualified rich kids get the pick of the top jobs like doctors, lawyers and prime ministers.
  • Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    ...
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(poem)
  • Andy_JS said:
    Weirdly, I don't remember the Mercury Prizes being dished out in the chamber of the House of Commons.
    You're missing the point. Whilst one does not excuse the other, Labour MPs suggest they are concerned about all threats and intimations of violence towards members of the house, not just their own side.

    I'd argue that showing a decapitated head of the PM on national TV is an order of magnitude more serious than Boris' comment last night. Yet there was pretty much silence.

    In the current febrile atmosphere, it's the duty of everyone to condemn this sort of thing - even it's targeted at your enemies.
    It shouldnt have been allowed on national TV. Artists have always been edgy and distasteful and their right to do so is an important part of art and free speech, but it doesnt need to be national TV and it should be criticised. It was widely criticised given it only has a niche audience in the first place.

    You are the one missing the point if you think the PM should have the same right to be edgy, distasteful and flirt with violence as a random minor artist.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited September 2019
    Brom said:

    Noo said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.
    Not really, the luvvies won't breed anywhere near the rate the working classes do.
    At the last election the Conservative vote was heavily concentrated in the over 55's.

    Breeding from the current pool of voters does not look like the route to future success.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    Any idea what proportion of the population each group represents?
    The age profile is quite important too. There older you are the less likely you are to have extensive formal education.
    Was wondering about this recently. Technical education, at the 'skilled' level, means being given instruction and, if having to write any essays etc, regurgitating facts. Opinions are not necessarily required. This is different from a university education where, in most subjects some at least reading around is necessary.

    In other words, the 'skilled' have been educated to accept what they are 'taught'.

    Probably a gross over-simplification, but that's the impression I've gained from my own education and looking at that of my children and grandchildren.
    I was told years ago

    O level = show you can remember facts
    A level - show you can apply facts
    Degree - show you can think
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,695
    Boris or Jezza Binary Choice


    Voters decide. Every vote for Tory Swinson is a vote for Jester/ Cummings.

    Ther only 2 possible outcomes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    edited September 2019

    HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
    Notwithstanding the caricatures and the great helping of privilege behind the Brexit campaign, this would only be of any use to the Tories if there was no other alternative. Ironically, it's also actually Brexit that's provided the alternative itself, as it's reinvigorated the Liberal Democrats.

    You could actually argue from that the threat of conservative populism has in fact reinvigorated the entire 18th and 19th century dynamic of British politics ; urban Liberals and Whigs against often provincial Tories. After universal suffrage and the mass labour movement there was no great national divide that could supercede this, and so return to the earlier stage - that is, until Brexit.
    Indeed in the 18th century the landed gentry voted Tory and the merchant classes voted Whig and as the franchise expanded Disraeli and Salisbury often won the working class vote in the 19th century with healthy lashes of flag waving and patriotism.

    It was only with universal suffrage in 1918 and 1927 and the rise of the Labour party the working class mainly voted Labour for most of the 20th century and the middle class voted mainly Tory to keep Labour out.

    When Labour were not a threat pre 1918 the middle class split between the urban professional and industrial middle class voting Whig or Liberal and the rural farming and landed gentry middle class voting Tory.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,850
    nunuone said:

    So many remainers are complaining about Boris's bad behaviour.

    Lol. They had a perfectly reasonable, and amenable PM in May and they treated her like shit.

    So, why exactly should Boris "tone it down"? I say Boris should double down.

    As evidenced by both the ultra-leave and ultra-remain factions, May had completely internalised the compromise at the heart of the issue.

    And yes she was treated disgracefully for doing so.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,695
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall

    Those upper middle class remainers will be having panicked breakfast table discussions about the Labour threat to the private education of Amaryllis and Georgiana.

    And once those graduates realise that when they finally start earning decent money Labour are going to be helping themselves to well over half of their pay they will have pause for thought.
    They won't vote Labour either no, as the poll shows the LDs now lead with graduates, not Labour
    Im a Graduate i am over 60
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall
    This means the tories have a huge lead with C2's.

    Which surely means they have a huge lead in the traditional marginals?

    I feel like the swing o meters are wrong, and the tories are piling up votes where it matters.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,890
    edited September 2019
    Cyclefree said:



    ..snip..

    I was referring to how Irishmen who fought with British forces were treated after they returned home after the war. They were I believe forbidden from working for the government. Not something of which Ireland can be proud.

    3rd May 1945:
    the Taoiseach and Minister for External Affairs, Éamon de Valera, accompanied by the Secretary of External Affairs, Joseph Walshe, ‘called on Dr Hempel, the German minister, last evening, to express his condolences’. The condolences were for Hitler who had committed suicide on 30 April. The Irish Times was prevented by the censor from publishing the following report from Reuter on 3 May: ‘Éire delegation mourns Hitler. Lisbon, May 3. The Éireann Minister in Lisbon today hoisted the German swastika at half mast over the legation as a sign of mourning for Hitler’.
    https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/de-valera-hitler-the-visit-of-condolence-may-1945/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,805
    edited September 2019

    Brom said:

    Noo said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    The more you know..
    Looks as if Matthew Parris's notorious Clacton-on-Sea article was on the money - the Tories are hitching themselves to a demographic that can only shrink as we become more prosperous and educated.
    Not really, the luvvies won't breed anywhere near the rate the working classes do.
    Speak for yourself. I do community theatre and I have 3 kids!
    Sometimes correlation implies causation!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,522
    edited September 2019


    Voters decide. Every vote for Tory Swinson is a vote for Jester/ Cummings.

    General rule:

    In a seat with a Labour MP, this is correct. (Apart from the word "Tory" which I guess wasn't supposed to be there?)

    In a seat without a Labour MP, this is the exact opposite of correct.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056
    nunuone said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1177147781728931840

    Look at the Conservative vote share in the Level 4 group!

    No real surprise, the Tories now do better with skilled working class Leavers than upper middle class Remainers and the LDs lead with graduates.

    Even in 2015 under Cameron the Tories only won graduates narrowly and by less than they won overall
    This means the tories have a huge lead with C2's.

    Which surely means they have a huge lead in the traditional marginals?

    I feel like the swing o meters are wrong, and the tories are piling up votes where it matters.
    I think that's the great unknown without constituency level polling.

    Of course it does mean that Boris needs to be shown to have failed so that the C2 vote goes to the Brexit party...
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