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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,946
    edited September 2019

    malcolmg said:

    I see Harry's lies from last week have been scotched.
    Minimum price 'cuts drinking by half a pint a week'
    Since May 2018, the price of alcohol has had to be at least 50p per unit.

    The study published in the British Medical Journal looked at how much alcohol was bought in shops before and after the move up to the end of 2018.

    It found the amount purchased per person per week fell by 1.2 units - the equivalent of just over half a pint of beer or a measure of spirits.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49831575

    Good news.

    Let’s hope @Byronic does not visit Scotland any time soon otherwise those stats are going to be ruined.
    LOL :D
    PS: He is very welcome, sounds like a nice chap to have a refreshment with
  • Fenster said:

    Fenster said:

    Unedifying scenes from parliament.

    Boris has been called a racist, a dictator, a sexist... he's been accused to enacting a coup. He's been told he's 'running scared', or 'surrendering to the Brexit party'. There have been countless - probably unprecedented for any modern politician - personal attacks on him. The abuse he has received has been relentless.

    Then he uses the words 'surrender' and 'humbug' after being screamed at by - a clearly organised - gang of Labour female backbenchers and they have a collective performative hissy fit.

    Labour have a shadow chancellor who has called for 'lynching' and for Tories to 'fear walking the streets'. They have a leader who rang the IRA leaders and invited them to parliament despite their henchmen murdering countless innocent people on British soil an blowing up a Tory party conference.

    We have a Lib Dem leader whose slogan is 'Bollocks to Brexit.

    We have blatant hypocrisy.

    Boris is unruly and tough enough to look after himself, he doesn't need my support. I'm not convinced he is PM material but to suggest that he is somehow more incendiary than any of the nasty attack dogs on the Reman side, or indeed Britain-hating revolutionaries like Corbyn, is pure bullshit and spin.

    Jo Cox's tragic death had NOTHING to do with the Tories and bringing her name into the debate is pouring unnecessary fuel on the fire. Using her name was planned and knowingly executed.

    The reality is that the EU referendum gave millions of poor working class voters in safe constituencies the opportunity to vote in an election where their votes counted. 75% of the elite are vehemently opposed to the result of that vote, they are uncomfortable with the way it has cut across party lines and most of them are indirectly trying every trick in the book to ensure Brexit is blocked.

    They won't do it directly because they don't want to lose their seats so they are putting people like Gina Miller and Jolyon Maugham in their way to take the flak for them.

    Hopefully there won't be violence but I wouldn't bet against it. I wouldn't have any sympathy either.

    Speaking of blatant hypocrisy your criticism of links to the IRA (which would have merit on its own standing) is completely at odds with your final sentence. If you would have no sympathy for victims of political violence re Brexit, you are not in a position to comment re IRA violence.
    Okay, sorry badly worded. I would have sympathy (of course I would) but what I mean is I wouldn't be shocked if some lunatic was inspired to attack an MP. Yesterday's spectacle was awful and if anything it proved that proroguing parliament during this inflamed period is not a bad idea.
    Wouldn't be shocked!? You absolute pillock. Beneath contempt.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    eek said:

    It's also known as the "totally screwed up Boris's plans" act which is why other names need to be found.

    It's a shame the Tory party haven't found a name that sticks to it.

    Surprising that "Fuck Boris" didn't stick, given how many people apparently have...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic this suggests to me that the SC case has not, at least yet, moved the polling at all. It is entirely consistent with existing trends and indeed other polling that we have seen, the Tories slipping back slowly, Labour going absolutely nowhere (usually down in fact) and the lib Dems consolidating the remain vote.

    Do you expect a specific reaction in the polls to the SC case?

    We've seen three polls in a row with the Tories slipping back. On an instinctive level that convinces me that there's a trend, but statistically I know that it's still indistinguishable from chance.
    Well maybe. It's not every day that the highest Court in the land rules that the conduct of the PM had been unlawful. But there is little sign that it made anyone pause for thought because everything is seen through the Brexit prism. Multiple vox pops on the BBC had leavers saying, at least he is trying to do something whilst remainers simply became even more confirmed in their views.

    We desperately need some middle ground but it is barren, neglected and traversed by multiple munitions from both sides making it a dangerous place.
    Corbyn is middle ground on BREXIT despite the "moderates" trying to drag him to be a Tory Swindon extremist.
    Corbyn is an egoist and a Tory helper. If he'd have resigned we'd have a Labour government by now.
    How?

    BTW you are a BREXIT extremist like Jester and Tory Swinson
    How??? Are you serious?

    Give me a Starmer, Kinnock, perhaps even Thornberry and I would think carefully about where my vote went and I'm a hated Conservative FFS.

    Are you really that politically short-sighted?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685
    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    Its only middle aged whoppers that still hold that view in my experience.

    Unfortunately middle aged whoppers are the voter base of the Conservative Party.
  • OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. When I read Eristdoof's comment I thought how long will it be before a Brexiteer brings up the war. I didn't have long to wait.

    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    And the people who actually fought in the war rather than watched Dads Army voted remain.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056
    edited September 2019
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic this suggests to me that the SC case has not, at least yet, moved the polling at all. It is entirely consistent with existing trends and indeed other polling that we have seen, the Tories slipping back slowly, Labour going absolutely nowhere (usually down in fact) and the lib Dems consolidating the remain vote.

    Do you expect a specific reaction in the polls to the SC case?

    We've seen three polls in a row with the Tories slipping back. On an instinctive level that convinces me that there's a trend, but statistically I know that it's still indistinguishable from chance.
    Well maybe. It's not every day that the highest Court in the land rules that the conduct of the PM had been unlawful. But there is little sign that it made anyone pause for thought because everything is seen through the Brexit prism. Multiple vox pops on the BBC had leavers saying, at least he is trying to do something whilst remainers simply became even more confirmed in their views.

    We desperately need some middle ground but it is barren, neglected and traversed by multiple munitions from both sides making it a dangerous place.
    Corbyn is middle ground on BREXIT despite the "moderates" trying to drag him to be a Tory Swindon extremist.
    Corbyn is an egoist and a Tory helper. If he'd have resigned we'd have a Labour government by now.
    How?

    BTW you are a BREXIT extremist like Jester and Tory Swinson
    I'm a Labour voter who wanted a Labour government. A blind man on a galloping camel could see that Corbyn can't win. All he can do is give Johnson the only chance he could ever have of being and remaining PM.
    I know it's going back a long time but the entire purpose of the attack on Tom Watson last Friday night was to ensure the Labour party remained under left wing control.

    Heck on Saturday a fair number of posters were talking about when and how Corbyn could walk into the retirement he probably wants.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999
    Some rare dignity and common sense from Brendan Cox this morning on R4:
    “I was genuinely shocked by the the willingness to descend to vitriol, because I think it does long lasting harm. To have this debate descend into this bear pit of polarisation, I think it’s dangerous for our country.”

    There is a willingness to jump out and decry the other side when they use language like ‘surrender’ or ‘traitor’ or ‘betrayal’. And I think that is inflammatory language. But as inflammatory are those people who have used the language of it being a ‘coup’ and ‘dictatorship’ and ‘fascism’.

    I think both of those approaches are unacceptable. It is not just bad behaviour by one side of the debate. This is something which is infected our politics, and it’s this vicious cycle where language gets more extreme, response gets more extreme, it all gets hyped up ... It creates an atmosphere where I think violence and attacks are more likely.

    You can disagree passionately with people. But you don’t have to impugn their motives, whether you are a hard Brexiteer or a hard remainer, actually, what you have in common is a desire to do what you think is best for the country.

    What isn’t acceptable is to demonize each other to build a culture of hatred to the other to create this tribal identity. Whatever happens with Brexit, the country is going to have to come together again. And we have to remember that, otherwise, we’ll be building a toxic legacy.
  • TOPPING said:

    Fenster said:



    Labour have a shadow chancellor who has called for 'lynching' and for Tories to 'fear walking the streets'. They have a leader who rang the IRA leaders and invited them to parliament despite their henchmen murdering countless innocent people on British soil an blowing up a Tory party conference.


    Who are the elite? Leavers threatening violence is very dull. The police and the courts will be fine. If people want to become a terrorist they will be dealt with.
    I would advise watching 'The Troubles' on BBC, on Tuesday night. The relationships between the British authorities and the IRA and indeed, at least in the early stages, between Paisleyites and the IRA are far from black and white.
    And when I write 'IRA' I mean both the Officials and the Provisionals.
    I had a very sensible relationship with the local "Sinn Fein" councillor where I was stationed.
    Back in the 1990s, a man walked the coastline of Britain and Ireland. One day whilst in NI, the local RUC head honcho gave him a bed for he night. He was used to being passed on from one person to another as he walked ("Oh, you want a bed there? I've a friend there who can give you a bed.")

    The RUC man arranged accommodation with a SF/IRA man, I think on the idea he'd be safe with him ...
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,795

    Extraordinary times, just look at last night's parliament. And yet Swinson still struggles to reach Cleggs 2010 performance.


    Given the state of Johnson and Corbyn there is a possibility that the Lib Dems could reach some sort of tipping point and go into the lead by making substantial gains from each.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999
    Scott_P said:

    eek said:

    It's also known as the "totally screwed up Boris's plans" act which is why other names need to be found.

    It's a shame the Tory party haven't found a name that sticks to it.

    Surprising that "Fuck Boris" didn't stick, given how many people apparently have...
    I rather think it's a minority taste.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463
    Fenster said:

    Unedifying scenes from parliament.

    Boris has been called a racist, a dictator, a sexist... he's been accused to enacting a coup. He's been told he's 'running scared', or 'surrendering to the Brexit party'. There have been countless - probably unprecedented for any modern politician - personal attacks on him. The abuse he has received has been relentless.

    Then he uses the words 'surrender' and 'humbug' after being screamed at by - a clearly organised - gang of Labour female backbenchers and they have a collective performative hissy fit.

    Labour have a shadow chancellor who has called for 'lynching' and for Tories to 'fear walking the streets'. They have a leader who rang the IRA leaders and invited them to parliament despite their henchmen murdering countless innocent people on British soil an blowing up a Tory party conference.

    We have a Lib Dem leader whose slogan is 'Bollocks to Brexit.

    We have blatant hypocrisy.

    Boris is unruly and tough enough to look after himself, he doesn't need my support. I'm not convinced he is PM material but to suggest that he is somehow more incendiary than any of the nasty attack dogs on the Reman side, or indeed Britain-hating revolutionaries like Corbyn, is pure bullshit and spin.

    Jo Cox's tragic death had NOTHING to do with the Tories and bringing her name into the debate is pouring unnecessary fuel on the fire. Using her name was planned and knowingly executed.

    The reality is that the EU referendum gave millions of poor working class voters in safe constituencies the opportunity to vote in an election where their votes counted. 75% of the elite are vehemently opposed to the result of that vote, they are uncomfortable with the way it has cut across party lines and most of them are indirectly trying every trick in the book to ensure Brexit is blocked.

    They won't do it directly because they don't want to lose their seats so they are putting people like Gina Miller and Jolyon Maugham in their way to take the flak for them.

    Hopefully there won't be violence but I wouldn't bet against it. I wouldn't have any sympathy either.

    Pretty low-down disgraceful last paragraph. You should hang your head in shame.
  • OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. When I read Eristdoof's comment I thought how long will it be before a Brexiteer brings up the war. I didn't have long to wait.

    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    And the people who actually fought in the war rather than watched Dads Army voted remain.
    Although, someone in the office told me that his father - now in his 90s - voted Brexit.

    But only because he is now senile and his vote was exercised on his behalf by his younger wife.
  • ydoethur said:

    Odd way to announce your retirement from Parliament. Or is it a token gesture due to problems finding a candidate in F&GG?

    She is a LibDem -- what do you expect?

    After all those protestations about how deep her roots are in Liverpool ... just another LibDem liar.

    She is now the PPC for FGG

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49831648

    The former PPC has been booted out.
    Oh give over.

    Luciana stands a decent chance in Finchley.

    Good luck to her.
    It is a shame Luciana Berger has chosen Finchley because in a way it legitimises the antisemitic twats who drove her out of Liverpool if she runs to a constituency with a high concentration of Jewish voters. She may well discover the antisemites are wrong and the good people of Finchley and Golders Green do not vote mindlessly for their co-religionists. Still, she needs to stand and lose somewhere to qualify for a payoff.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Extraordinary times, just look at last night's parliament. And yet Swinson still struggles to reach Cleggs 2010 performance.

    Many erstwhile and current Tories probably reflect my own thinking. Any thoughts of voting LD given the utter Tossers that now run "our" party are severely mitigated by the thought that such behaviour might somehow let Corbyn in.
    Which constituency are you in? There aren't many three way marginal.
    I am in an instructive constituency. Ealing Central and Acton. Super remain with a Lab MP about which there was some kind of an anti-Semitism issue.

    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-mp-rupa-huq-taunted-employee-over-star-of-david-badge-report-claims-2/

    (Note the source)

    It went from Con/Lab super marginal to overwhelming Lab gain (LDs went Lab, UKIP went Cons). On the doorstep there were plenty of former Cons voting Lab because of brexit and also because they thought it unlikely Lab could win. Will they now go LD? That would split the remain vote and possibly send it back to Cons.

    This shows that everything is in play imo in every constituency.
    What ! Knightsbridge surely, I mean even my daughter lives in Ealing and shes a builder.
    Reminds me of the old joke (which I will amend) - a builder comes round to a guy's house to put up some shelves. He does so and says that will be £1,000. The guy says £1,000??? That's more than I earn per hour and I'm a lawyer, to which the builder responds: yes it's more than I earned when I was a lawyer.

    Genuine LOL. I like a good economics joke!
  • malcolmg said:

    I’m glad to be a Lib Dem voter this morning.

    The other parties are mental (if not evil).

    You sound as if you are both
    Remove the beam from thine own eye nationalist. How is Wee Eck's case going?
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Extraordinary times, just look at last night's parliament. And yet Swinson still struggles to reach Cleggs 2010 performance.

    Many erstwhile and current Tories probably reflect my own thinking. Any thoughts of voting LD given the utter Tossers that now run "our" party are severely mitigated by the thought that such behaviour might somehow let Corbyn in.
    Which constituency are you in? There aren't many three way marginal.
    I am in an instructive constituency. Ealing Central and Acton. Super remain with a Lab MP about which there was some kind of an anti-Semitism issue.

    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-mp-rupa-huq-taunted-employee-over-star-of-david-badge-report-claims-2/

    (Note the source)

    It went from Con/Lab super marginal to overwhelming Lab gain (LDs went Lab, UKIP went Cons). On the doorstep there were plenty of former Cons voting Lab because of brexit and also because they thought it unlikely Lab could win. Will they now go LD? That would split the remain vote and possibly send it back to Cons.

    This shows that everything is in play imo in every constituency.
    What ! Knightsbridge surely, I mean even my daughter lives in Ealing and shes a builder.
    Reminds me of the old joke (which I will amend) - a builder comes round to a guy's house to put up some shelves. He does so and says that will be £1,000. The guy says £1,000??? That's more than I earn per hour and I'm a lawyer, to which the builder responds: yes it's more than I earned when I was a lawyer.
    Genuine LOL. I like a good economics joke!
    You must have LOVED the Labour Party conference.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Extraordinary times, just look at last night's parliament. And yet Swinson still struggles to reach Cleggs 2010 performance.

    Many erstwhile and current Tories probably reflect my own thinking. Any thoughts of voting LD given the utter Tossers that now run "our" party are severely mitigated by the thought that such behaviour might somehow let Corbyn in.
    Which constituency are you in? There aren't many three way marginal.
    I am in an instructive constituency. Ealing Central and Acton. Super remain with a Lab MP about which there was some kind of an anti-Semitism issue.

    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-mp-rupa-huq-taunted-employee-over-star-of-david-badge-report-claims-2/

    (Note the source)

    It went from Con/Lab super marginal to overwhelming Lab gain (LDs went Lab, UKIP went Cons). On the doorstep there were plenty of former Cons voting Lab because of brexit and also because they thought it unlikely Lab could win. Will they now go LD? That would split the remain vote and possibly send it back to Cons.

    This shows that everything is in play imo in every constituency.
    What ! Knightsbridge surely, I mean even my daughter lives in Ealing and shes a builder.
    Reminds me of the old joke (which I will amend) - a builder comes round to a guy's house to put up some shelves. He does so and says that will be £1,000. The guy says £1,000??? That's more than I earn per hour and I'm a lawyer, to which the builder responds: yes it's more than I earned when I was a lawyer.

    Genuine LOL. I like a good economics joke!
    John Mcdonnell ?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Flanner said:

    Foxy said:

    Extraordinary times, just look at last night's parliament. And yet Swinson still struggles to reach Cleggs 2010 performance.


    To be fair on Johnson he is breaking down himself on a cocktail of coffee and other stimulants. His Prometheus speech was beyond bonkers on Tuesday. What a national embarrassment.
    .
    The rarely admitted truth is that he's an absolutely awful speechmaker. Ponderous, boring, pompous - and incapable of delivering his lines. No idea what he used to be like (I only ever heard him on HIGNIFY), but just can't see how such an inept speaker got to be Press of the Oxford Union 30 years ago. He must have got worse with experience.

    But it's so consistent, it can't be just one pressurised day

    Snorted too much over 30 years? Early stage Alzheimers? Or some other real mental illness? I'd lay odds on his being bipolar: most of his visible awfulness is consistent with the hypomania half, but the Kuenssberg documentary showed a Johnson in the depressive stage.

    Whatever it is: he's our new George III
    Oh come on.

    I watched him last night. He capably batted away questions for three hours, fired up his troops, and deftly got his basic message to voters. This is not madness. That's absurd, and insulting to lunatics.

    What he does do, is talk too fast sometimes, and swallow his best lines. He thinks too quickly for his mouth to respond, though it tries. He seems to have three thoughts on the go at any moment.

    He is a very intelligent man with a wide amoral streak, and simultaneously a need to be smothered with love. I agree he may be manic depressive. Some of his behaviour speaks to that. But again this is not madness.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,296

    Scott_P said:
    Disagree with her on this one. The Conservatives should be allowed to have their conference for both moral and practical reasons: it's not as if anybody else has any idea of what to do with the new parliamentary time to fix the issue.

    What is more, it is likely the conference will do the Conservatives more harm than good ...
    Agreed. They should be allowed to have their conference. People need to see the swiveleyed nutters that now control the Conservative Party, just like they have seen the baying mob that now control Labour.
    There is also the point that it will look very petty. If the complaint from yesterday was that things need to be moderated then refusing conference recess when Lab and Lib Dem had their conferences will appear party political. The risk is obviously that recess happens and then the Tories prorogue for 6 or 7 days to prepare queens speech in accordance with the new law from SC.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061
    edited September 2019
    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,463
    malcolmg said:

    I see Harry's lies from last week have been scotched.
    Minimum price 'cuts drinking by half a pint a week'
    Since May 2018, the price of alcohol has had to be at least 50p per unit.

    The study published in the British Medical Journal looked at how much alcohol was bought in shops before and after the move up to the end of 2018.

    It found the amount purchased per person per week fell by 1.2 units - the equivalent of just over half a pint of beer or a measure of spirits.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49831575

    Lol at TGOHF.

    This was from the same hard-right knuckledragger dimwit poster and anti-tipster who used a poll taken before the Labour conference to illustrate Labour’s lack of conference bounce.
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:

    eek said:

    It's also known as the "totally screwed up Boris's plans" act which is why other names need to be found.

    It's a shame the Tory party haven't found a name that sticks to it.

    Surprising that "Fuck Boris" didn't stick, given how many people apparently have...
    I rather think it's a minority taste.
    I think Boris got bored with normal intercourse and decided to completely fuck the country instead.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000

    Scott_P said:
    Disagree with her on this one. The Conservatives should be allowed to have their conference for both moral and practical reasons: it's not as if anybody else has any idea of what to do with the new parliamentary time to fix the issue.

    What is more, it is likely the conference will do the Conservatives more harm than good ...
    Agreed. They should be allowed to have their conference. People need to see the swiveleyed nutters that now control the Conservative Party, just like they have seen the baying mob that now control Labour.
    There is also the point that it will look very petty. If the complaint from yesterday was that things need to be moderated then refusing conference recess when Lab and Lib Dem had their conferences will appear party political. The risk is obviously that recess happens and then the Tories prorogue for 6 or 7 days to prepare queens speech in accordance with the new law from SC.
    Surely the SC said that the main issue was that the prorogation prevented parliament from performing its task. The number of days in the circumstances you describe would, I believe, be irrelevant as it would have the effect of preventing parliament from performing its duties and hence would fall foul of the judgment.

    (IANAL obvs)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,897
    Off-topic: We were discussing the other day minimum alcohol pricing in Scotland and evidence for whether it's ahving an effect. There's a new study (summarised here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49831575; full paper open access https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5274 ) which suggests it has. I've only skimmed it, but the methods look good - interrupted time series with control groups (England, northern England)

    On-topic: Polling changes are in or near margin of error (depending on sample size) but it would be interesting if they're sustained - the ruling proved too much for a few wavering Conservatives to stick with Johnson? Last poll also suggests and interesting angle - Mail readers might like Johnson in general and support Brexit, but the Queen is perhaps more important to them. There may be some value in the opposition pursuing the 'lied to the Queen' angle.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    Didn't feel that way to me. Felt like a typical dead cat move. The Tories have been doing similar for a number of years. Feeding red meat to the Tory-loyal press who really need something to write about that isn't the unlawful actions of the PM.
    Still, you might be on to something that I can't see.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    Scott_P said:
    Disagree with her on this one. The Conservatives should be allowed to have their conference for both moral and practical reasons: it's not as if anybody else has any idea of what to do with the new parliamentary time to fix the issue.

    What is more, it is likely the conference will do the Conservatives more harm than good ...
    Agreed. They should be allowed to have their conference. People need to see the swiveleyed nutters that now control the Conservative Party, just like they have seen the baying mob that now control Labour.
    There is also the point that it will look very petty. If the complaint from yesterday was that things need to be moderated then refusing conference recess when Lab and Lib Dem had their conferences will appear party political. The risk is obviously that recess happens and then the Tories prorogue for 6 or 7 days to prepare queens speech in accordance with the new law from SC.
    The only thing that needs to be said is that Boris cannot be trusted therefore we do not wish to suspend Parliament.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    The sort of comment I write very early in the morning, pause over, then delete.
    You're probably right. No coffee in the system yet.
    No espresso coffee in the system.

    Probably caused by that chocolate you insist on sprinkling over it ...... :)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278
    nichomar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting comment from Tim Farron. How many fewer Tory MPs by next weekend?

    https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1176920458865909761?s=19

    There is the enduring hope that Conservative backbenchers will end this, but it’s a very long shot. They would need to see a route to a new leader and a way to save their seat. Is there a safe pair of hands waiting in the wings?
    There's a problem in that 1922 Committee rules prevent a challenge to a Leader in the first 12 month.
    It doesn’t only after a previous confidence vote
    Thought I'd read that they'd quietly amended the rules.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,038
    edited September 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Verty thoughtful response to Johnson from Brendan Cox this morning, with a gentle reminder to us all, not just Boris (ex-Guardian blog report on his R4 interview):

    “I’m sure on reflection, it’s something that he would probably wish he hadn’t said. I think it was sloppy language and the wrong thing to say, but I don’t think that he is an evil man.”

    He added: “What isn’t legitimate is to co-opt her memory or her beliefs for things that she didn’t believe in or didn’t say. I was thinking about how Jo would respond to it last night. She would have tried to take a generosity of spirit to it. And thought about how in this moment, you can step back from this growing inferno of rhetoric.”

    Cox urged politicians of both sides of the Brexit debate to tone down the rhetoric used and stop portraying each other as good or evil. “We just have to have a more nuanced understanding to remember our common our common humanity,” Cox said.

    “I was genuinely shocked by the the willingness to descend to vitriol, because I think it does long lasting harm. To have this debate descend into this bear pit of polarisation, I think it’s dangerous for our country.”

    There is a willingness to jump out and decry the other side when they use language like ‘surrender’ or ‘traitor’ or ‘betrayal’. And I think that is inflammatory language. But as inflammatory are those people who have used the language of it being a ‘coup’ and ‘dictatorship’ and ‘fascism’.

    I think both of those approaches are unacceptable. It is not just bad behaviour by one side of the debate. This is something which is infected our politics, and it’s this vicious cycle where language gets more extreme, response gets more extreme, it all gets hyped up ... It creates an atmosphere where I think violence and attacks are more likely.

    You can disagree passionately with people. But you don’t have to impugn their motives, whether you are a hard Brexiteer or a hard remainer, actually, what you have in common is a desire to do what you think is best for the country.

    What isn’t acceptable is to demonize each other to build a culture of hatred to the other to create this tribal identity. Whatever happens with Brexit, the country is going to have to come together again. And we have to remember that, otherwise, we’ll be building a toxic legacy.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648
    So now weve all agreed that MPs have lost the plot and need to cool off which side do we see backing off first ? Even more which MP will be the first to make an apology to the other side ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,251
    edited September 2019
    Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    You could word the question differently and get different responses.

    "If we havent got a deal by Oct 31 should we leave without a deal?" would produce fewer no dealers than the above question for example (as virtually no-one directly in favour of extension, it is a choice to avoid bad outcomes only).

    So yes taking these polls past their margins of error is pretty pointless.

    We know the country is divided, roughly down the middle. That gives us a platform for understanding what we need to do.

    Imo, that is leave with a deal, preferably as soft as possible, which reflects peoples second preferences, as it is not feasible to reflect any majority of first preferences.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251

    Fenster said:

    Unedifying scenes from parliament.

    Boris has been called a racist, a dictator, a sexist... he's been accused to enacting a coup. He's been told he's 'running scared', or 'surrendering to the Brexit party'. There have been countless - probably unprecedented for any modern politician - personal attacks on him. The abuse he has received has been relentless.

    Then he uses the words 'surrender' and 'humbug' after being screamed at by - a clearly organised - gang of Labour female backbenchers and they have a collective performative hissy fit.

    Labour have a shadow chancellor who has called for 'lynching' and for Tories to 'fear walking the streets'. They have a leader who rang the IRA leaders and invited them to parliament despite their henchmen murdering countless innocent people on British soil an blowing up a Tory party conference.

    We have a Lib Dem leader whose slogan is 'Bollocks to Brexit.

    We have blatant hypocrisy.

    Boris is unruly and tough enough to look after himself, he doesn't need my support. I'm not convinced he is PM material but to suggest that he is somehow more incendiary than any of the nasty attack dogs on the Reman side, or indeed Britain-hating revolutionaries like Corbyn, is pure bullshit and spin.

    Jo Cox's tragic death had NOTHING to do with the Tories and bringing her name into the debate is pouring unnecessary fuel on the fire. Using her name was planned and knowingly executed.

    The reality is that the EU referendum gave millions of poor working class voters in safe constituencies the opportunity to vote in an election where their votes counted. 75% of the elite are vehemently opposed to the result of that vote, they are uncomfortable with the way it has cut across party lines and most of them are indirectly trying every trick in the book to ensure Brexit is blocked.

    They won't do it directly because they don't want to lose their seats so they are putting people like Gina Miller and Jolyon Maugham in their way to take the flak for them.

    Hopefully there won't be violence but I wouldn't bet against it. I wouldn't have any sympathy either.

    Who are the elite? Leavers threatening violence is very dull. The police and the courts will be fine. If people want to become a terrorist they will be dealt with.
    Well said. What I find offensive is the idea only those that were on the (marginally) winning side of that iffy 2016 referendum think they have a right to be angry. The difference is I don't notice any on the remain side threatening violence. (no doubt they will be trawling this very minute to bring up some tenuous rebuttal lol)
    Pompous and blind. What a winning combo....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000

    Scott_P said:
    Verty thoughtful response to Johnson from Brendan Cox this morning, with a gentle reminder to us all, not just Boris (ex-Guardian blog report on his R4 interview):

    “I’m sure on reflection, it’s something that he would probably wish he hadn’t said. I think it was sloppy language and the wrong thing to say, but I don’t think that he is an evil man.”

    He added: “What isn’t legitimate is to co-opt her memory or her beliefs for things that she didn’t believe in or didn’t say. I was thinking about how Jo would respond to it last night. She would have tried to take a generosity of spirit to it. And thought about how in this moment, you can step back from this growing inferno of rhetoric.”

    Cox urged politicians of both sides of the Brexit debate to tone down the rhetoric used and stop portraying each other as good or evil. “We just have to have a more nuanced understanding to remember our common our common humanity,” Cox said.

    “I was genuinely shocked by the the willingness to descend to vitriol, because I think it does long lasting harm. To have this debate descend into this bear pit of polarisation, I think it’s dangerous for our country.”

    There is a willingness to jump out and decry the other side when they use language like ‘surrender’ or ‘traitor’ or ‘betrayal’. And I think that is inflammatory language. But as inflammatory are those people who have used the language of it being a ‘coup’ and ‘dictatorship’ and ‘fascism’.

    I think both of those approaches are unacceptable. It is not just bad behaviour by one side of the debate. This is something which is infected our politics, and it’s this vicious cycle where language gets more extreme, response gets more extreme, it all gets hyped up ... It creates an atmosphere where I think violence and attacks are more likely.

    You can disagree passionately with people. But you don’t have to impugn their motives, whether you are a hard Brexiteer or a hard remainer, actually, what you have in common is a desire to do what you think is best for the country.

    What isn’t acceptable is to demonize each other to build a culture of hatred to the other to create this tribal identity. Whatever happens with Brexit, the country is going to have to come together again. And we have to remember that, otherwise, we’ll be building a toxic legacy.
    Apart from the Jews, of course.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Missed Boris yesterday implicitly threatening MPs lives if they didn't acquiesce to his demands.
  • Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    Probably not safe to assume anything about "remain" in the second question.

    I would still take polls seriously, but you need to be very careful about interpreting secondary questions, and you have to read the whole thing to see the surrounding ones rather than just picking out the interesting ones. (This is especially true of some of the recent ComRes polls, which have been Sir-Humphreyed way beyond the point pollsters usually seem to let their clients get away with.)

    One of the things that you *can* tell from them is that if you see radically different answers depending how they're worded, the voters probably don't have a very clear opinion about them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    It is also possible some people who voted Remain also respect democracy and believe we must implement the Leave vote first even with No Deal.

    Hence No Deal has a 6% lead over further extension
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    nichomar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Interesting comment from Tim Farron. How many fewer Tory MPs by next weekend?

    https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1176920458865909761?s=19

    There is the enduring hope that Conservative backbenchers will end this, but it’s a very long shot. They would need to see a route to a new leader and a way to save their seat. Is there a safe pair of hands waiting in the wings?
    There's a problem in that 1922 Committee rules prevent a challenge to a Leader in the first 12 month.
    It doesn’t only after a previous confidence vote
    Thought I'd read that they'd quietly amended the rules.
    Well that would have been a stupid thing to do considering how things are going to play out..
  • Alistair said:

    Missed Boris yesterday implicitly threatening MPs lives if they didn't acquiesce to his demands.

    He didnt. He has however been using military memes and divisive language all summer which I presume you have not missed.
  • Selebian said:

    Off-topic: We were discussing the other day minimum alcohol pricing in Scotland and evidence for whether it's ahving an effect. There's a new study (summarised here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49831575; full paper open access https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5274 ) which suggests it has. I've only skimmed it, but the methods look good - interrupted time series with control groups (England, northern England)

    On-topic: Polling changes are in or near margin of error (depending on sample size) but it would be interesting if they're sustained - the ruling proved too much for a few wavering Conservatives to stick with Johnson? Last poll also suggests and interesting angle - Mail readers might like Johnson in general and support Brexit, but the Queen is perhaps more important to them. There may be some value in the opposition pursuing the 'lied to the Queen' angle.

    Agree with that last line to some extent, though it may only get traction with people who already have doubts. The fan-boys will continue to believe he didn't. I loath the guy, but I think there is a chance that he didn't intentionally lie to HM.

    I think where Bozo is at risk is from the Conservative women voters. They will take a while to change perhaps, but a few I have spoken to are definitely turning away from him. I think a GE TV debate might tip things, partic if his misogyny appears when debating with Swinson
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Mike, wasn't the first post-Supreme Court ruling poll this one, which showed a decline for the LDs? https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1176744281970749441?s=09
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,038
    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,490
    I think I may vote LD in Lewisham East this time.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. When I read Eristdoof's comment I thought how long will it be before a Brexiteer brings up the war. I didn't have long to wait.

    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    The idea that everybody else, apart from us, has "moved on from WW2" is poignantly ridiculous.

    Anyone who travels anywhere can confirm that the Second World War, and its legacy, absolutely dominates discourse and mindsets in Germany (guilt), Russia (pain, pride), Poland (pain, anger), Israel (of course), the Baltic States (pain, fear), and so on. It is often hidden in other issues, but it is always there.

    It's easier to pick the countries where it isn't a national trauma. Spain. Portugal. Switzerland.

    Even Japan and America are, to some extent, still living in the shadow. Which is understandable, it was the worst and greatest war in history, the greatest crime ever committed, and it gave birth to nuclear bombs. It is arguably the most pivotal moment in the human story.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 679
    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648
    Alistair said:

    Missed Boris yesterday implicitly threatening MPs lives if they didn't acquiesce to his demands.

    Gerry Adams used to do it all the time and several MPs were murdered, but nobody worries to much about it now.

    It will pass.
  • So now weve all agreed that MPs have lost the plot and need to cool off which side do we see backing off first ? Even more which MP will be the first to make an apology to the other side ?

    The Prime Minister will cool things down.

    PM Margaret II.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,000
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    It is also possible some people who voted Remain also respect democracy and believe we must implement the Leave vote first even with No Deal.

    Hence No Deal has a 6% lead over further extension
    I voted Remain and respect democracy. I also think that leaving with no deal would be in accord with the referendum result (no details on the ballot paper, etc). And if the people vote themselves harm with regret it must be respected (cf. a Corbyn government).

    However, I think it (and a Corbyn govt) an absolutely fucking stupid course of action and will campaign, democratically, against it and don't all of a sudden think it is a good thing to do. Because having voted Remain, if I for some reason now thought that leaving with no deal was a good idea that would make me a complete fucking moron.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,038

    Scott_P said:
    Disagree with her on this one. The Conservatives should be allowed to have their conference for both moral and practical reasons: it's not as if anybody else has any idea of what to do with the new parliamentary time to fix the issue.

    What is more, it is likely the conference will do the Conservatives more harm than good ...
    Agreed. They should be allowed to have their conference. People need to see the swiveleyed nutters that now control the Conservative Party, just like they have seen the baying mob that now control Labour.
    There is also the point that it will look very petty. If the complaint from yesterday was that things need to be moderated then refusing conference recess when Lab and Lib Dem had their conferences will appear party political. The risk is obviously that recess happens and then the Tories prorogue for 6 or 7 days to prepare queens speech in accordance with the new law from SC.
    Shrug, not many MPs attend much of conference, so it will happen regardless. If there's no recess, it'll be mildly inconvenient for Ministers, and I think that attempts to press a surprise snap vote would be wrong, but otherwise it doesn't really matter.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    Mike, wasn't the first post-Supreme Court ruling poll this one, which showed a decline for the LDs? https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1176744281970749441?s=09

    It's on the day of the SC ruling so people may not have heard the story then (although it's unlikely as Mrs Eek said her office stopped to listen to the verdict).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.
    Probably so Im surprised the opposition danced to their tune.
  • HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    It is also possible some people who voted Remain also respect democracy and believe we must implement the Leave vote first even with No Deal.

    Hence No Deal has a 6% lead over further extension
    Hey, how you doing fan-boy? Maybe people might "respect democracy" and accept that the referendum was superceded by the 2017 election where the party that went for pretty hard Brexit failed to get a majority? What we have now is a perfect reflection of "democracy" as our system sees it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    Noo said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are two people who can end this IMO. Gove or Javid. If either were to resign or publicly deviate from Boris’ scorched Earth strategy, Boris’ time would be up.

    Or a number of lesser figures. I can't believe the Conservative Party can't find ten or twelve MPs with the required backbone and moral standards to end this dangerous, farcical premiership. I thought there were still a few good Tories left.
    If they did 67% of Tory members and the majority of Tory voters would defect an masse to the Brexit Party rather than support deposing Boris for a pro extension PM, just making Farage rather than Boris the lead right wing candidate for PM, the Tories would collapse to 3rd or even 4th
  • theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    edited September 2019
    Comment on the 4 findings above

    1) That's a good poll for the LDs but watch for movement from TBP to Tories after BJ's trash and burn performance. May be offset by some movement from Con to LD as civilised Tories will be appalled by BJ's Trump impersonation.
    2)Nothing's changed
    3) Concerning for the opposition parties but there's a chance BJ has overplayed his hand in the last few days and his personal popularity may start going into reverse
    4)Superficially good for the opposition but the important word here is Queen
  • theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    Indeed. We have a poster saying he didnt threaten MPs lives. Oh well, everything must be hunky dory then.

    What previous PM or any public figure, has the line of decency set at not threatening to kill MPs?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648
    Byronic said:

    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. When I read Eristdoof's comment I thought how long will it be before a Brexiteer brings up the war. I didn't have long to wait.

    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    The idea that everybody else, apart from us, has "moved on from WW2" is poignantly ridiculous.

    Anyone who travels anywhere can confirm that the Second World War, and its legacy, absolutely dominates discourse and mindsets in Germany (guilt), Russia (pain, pride), Poland (pain, anger), Israel (of course), the Baltic States (pain, fear), and so on. It is often hidden in other issues, but it is always there.

    It's easier to pick the countries where it isn't a national trauma. Spain. Portugal. Switzerland.

    Even Japan and America are, to some extent, still living in the shadow. Which is understandable, it was the worst and greatest war in history, the greatest crime ever committed, and it gave birth to nuclear bombs. It is arguably the most pivotal moment in the human story.
    Spain has its own trauma in the Civil War
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 359
    Byronic said:

    Flanner said:

    Foxy said:



    Oh come on.

    I watched him last night. He capably batted away questions for three hours, fired up his troops, and deftly got his basic message to voters. .

    Yes: Johnson can perform on his feet in a roughouse . Indeed, he might well be cut out for a standup comedian when he gets kicked out of Parliament - though there is a bit of a PC bar in that industry. But he simply lacks the basics of managing briefs and communicating complexity that are now essential in a PM.

    He's clearly got worse since his teens: no-one as inarticulate and ponderous as he is most of the time these days could have survived a tutorial (and not just any tutorial: a Balliol Greats tutorial) without being ridiculed by his tute partner and disciplined by the tutor.

    Could just be that delivering after dinner speeches and writing for the Barclay brothers are bad for your brains. Whatever the reason: Johnson isn't just evil: he's plumbing levels of incompetence to rival Grayling and IDS.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,251
    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are two people who can end this IMO. Gove or Javid. If either were to resign or publicly deviate from Boris’ scorched Earth strategy, Boris’ time would be up.

    Or a number of lesser figures. I can't believe the Conservative Party can't find ten or twelve MPs with the required backbone and moral standards to end this dangerous, farcical premiership. I thought there were still a few good Tories left.
    If they did 67% of Tory members and the majority of Tory voters would defect an masse to the Brexit Party rather than support deposing Boris for a pro extension PM, just making Farage rather than Boris the lead right wing candidate for PM, the Tories would collapse to 3rd or even 4th
    But Farage would ride the wave of anger to become PM.

    If people think that Boris is winding them up - oh boy. Prepare to be tripling your blood pressure meds when Farage gets the levers of power.
  • So now weve all agreed that MPs have lost the plot and need to cool off which side do we see backing off first ? Even more which MP will be the first to make an apology to the other side ?

    I think today will be worse than yesterday.

    There will be continual demands from Opposition MPs that Johnson apologise and I expect that he will refuse to do so.

    This will bleed into the "debate" on the order paper on the "Principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate" which looks like it will be another opportunity for the government benches to taunt the Opposition benches on avoiding an immediate election with much pious humbug about the will of the people.
  • Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    The second question sounds like a proxy for “drag it out or get it over with”. Some of the people answering No Deal would probably support revocation.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    It is also possible some people who voted Remain also respect democracy and believe we must implement the Leave vote first even with No Deal.

    Hence No Deal has a 6% lead over further extension
    Hey, how you doing fan-boy? Maybe people might "respect democracy" and accept that the referendum was superceded by the 2017 election where the party that went for pretty hard Brexit failed to get a majority? What we have now is a perfect reflection of "democracy" as our system sees it.
    As a consistent Remainer I would have, and would now, take May's Deal over No Deal. Of course I'd take Revoke first.
    When in an argument over this elsewhere I always take the view that we've tried to sort out a sensible Leave and have failed, basically because there isn't one that doesn't cause more problems than it solves. Therefore, I'd take May's as the best on offer, with a view to Rejoineing when we've realised what a pile of fools gold we bought.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,522
    edited September 2019

    theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    That's another thing he has in common with Trump. I guess it's a strategic advantage in a polarized environment because when people are in tribal mode they'll go a long way to support and believe extreme things for their tribe, so you have a competitive advantage if you're prepared to take them further and faster than the next guy.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648

    theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    Indeed. We have a poster saying he didnt threaten MPs lives. Oh well, everything must be hunky dory then.

    What previous PM or any public figure, has the line of decency set at not threatening to kill MPs?
    Mcdonnell recently and publicly calling for a lynching, Corbyn with his choice of mates who murdered both MPs and ordinary UK citizens
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited September 2019

    Byronic said:

    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. When I read Eristdoof's comment I thought how long will it be before a Brexiteer brings up the war. I didn't have long to wait.

    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    The idea that everybody else, apart from us, has "moved on from WW2" is poignantly ridiculous.

    Anyone who travels anywhere can confirm that the Second World War, and its legacy, absolutely dominates discourse and mindsets in Germany (guilt), Russia (pain, pride), Poland (pain, anger), Israel (of course), the Baltic States (pain, fear), and so on. It is often hidden in other issues, but it is always there.

    It's easier to pick the countries where it isn't a national trauma. Spain. Portugal. Switzerland.

    Even Japan and America are, to some extent, still living in the shadow. Which is understandable, it was the worst and greatest war in history, the greatest crime ever committed, and it gave birth to nuclear bombs. It is arguably the most pivotal moment in the human story.
    Spain has its own trauma in the Civil War
    Yes and it still overshadows their political life, as does WW2 elsewhere.

    Even now they are having a bitter argument about Franco's bones, despite the fact that virtually everyone who can remember the war is dead.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077
    alex. said:

    Lots of discussion last night about whether various leave options do or do not fulfill the democratic wish of the electorate as voted for in the referendum.

    Question for HYUFD. “As a democrat” do you believe that May’s deal met the requirements to deliver this?

    More than SM and CU yes but not as much as Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop or No Deal
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,758
    OllyT said:



    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.

    WW2 marked the end of empire and Brexit is an act of funerary self-immolation to mourn it.
  • Fenster said:

    Unedifying scenes from parliament.

    Boris has been called a racist, a dictator, a sexist... he's been accused to enacting a coup. He's been told he's 'running scared', or 'surrendering to the Brexit party'. There have been countless - probably unprecedented for any modern politician - personal attacks on him. The abuse he has received has been relentless.

    Then he uses the words 'surrender' and 'humbug' after being screamed at by - a clearly organised - gang of Labour female backbenchers and they have a collective performative hissy fit.

    Labour have a shadow chancellor who has called for 'lynching' and for Tories to 'fear walking the streets'. They have a leader who rang the IRA leaders and invited them to parliament despite their henchmen murdering countless innocent people on British soil an blowing up a Tory party conference.

    We have a Lib Dem leader whose slogan is 'Bollocks to Brexit.

    We have blatant hypocrisy.

    Boris is unruly and tough enough to look after himself, he doesn't need my support. I'm not convinced he is PM material but to suggest that he is somehow more incendiary than any of the nasty attack dogs on the Reman side, or indeed Britain-hating revolutionaries like Corbyn, is pure bullshit and spin.

    Jo Cox's tragic death had NOTHING to do with the Tories and bringing her name into the debate is pouring unnecessary fuel on the fire. Using her name was planned and knowingly executed.

    The reality is that the EU referendum gave millions of poor working class voters in safe constituencies the opportunity to vote in an election where their votes counted. 75% of the elite are vehemently opposed to the result of that vote, they are uncomfortable with the way it has cut across party lines and most of them are indirectly trying every trick in the book to ensure Brexit is blocked.

    They won't do it directly because they don't want to lose their seats so they are putting people like Gina Miller and Jolyon Maugham in their way to take the flak for them.

    Hopefully there won't be violence but I wouldn't bet against it. I wouldn't have any sympathy either.

    Who are the elite? Leavers threatening violence is very dull. The police and the courts will be fine. If people want to become a terrorist they will be dealt with.
    Well said. What I find offensive is the idea only those that were on the (marginally) winning side of that iffy 2016 referendum think they have a right to be angry. The difference is I don't notice any on the remain side threatening violence. (no doubt they will be trawling this very minute to bring up some tenuous rebuttal lol)
    Pompous and blind. What a winning combo....
    Once again your level of wit and intellect astonishes me sir!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322
    Noo said:

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    Didn't feel that way to me. Felt like a typical dead cat move. The Tories have been doing similar for a number of years. Feeding red meat to the Tory-loyal press who really need something to write about that isn't the unlawful actions of the PM.
    Still, you might be on to something that I can't see.
    I may very well be wrong. But there is something about the way the legal arguments for the government have been run which feels odd. Cox is a lawyer and A-G; he should be furious about the partial leaking of a note of his advice. And yet his fury is directed elsewhere. I wonder if he has been shouted at by someone.
  • Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    Given the cabinet were not allowed to see the legal advice, it must have been a very tight circle around Boris who could have leaked it. Cox was clearly being thrown under the bus by team Boris as the scapegoat, so his options were to walk or fight back with over the top loyalty as you say.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056
    This may well be of interest to others here
    https://twitter.com/thersaorg/status/1176992529012723712?s=21
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061
    Cyclefree said:

    Noo said:

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    Didn't feel that way to me. Felt like a typical dead cat move. The Tories have been doing similar for a number of years. Feeding red meat to the Tory-loyal press who really need something to write about that isn't the unlawful actions of the PM.
    Still, you might be on to something that I can't see.
    I may very well be wrong. But there is something about the way the legal arguments for the government have been run which feels odd. Cox is a lawyer and A-G; he should be furious about the partial leaking of a note of his advice. And yet his fury is directed elsewhere. I wonder if he has been shouted at by someone.
    Has he just been told by Cummings to direct his fury against the opposition? Is any part of him still a lawyer, or is he now a politician through and through?
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.
    Think Johnson and his AG. Think Trump and his AG.
    The relationship is almost the same. These two AG's appear to be servants of the administration like any other minister.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999
    edited September 2019

    theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    Indeed. We have a poster saying he didnt threaten MPs lives. Oh well, everything must be hunky dory then.

    What previous PM or any public figure, has the line of decency set at not threatening to kill MPs?
    Mcdonnell recently and publicly calling for a lynching, Corbyn with his choice of mates who murdered both MPs and ordinary UK citizens
    Which is one reason they are not fit to be in government.
    How is Johnson now any different ?
  • HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are two people who can end this IMO. Gove or Javid. If either were to resign or publicly deviate from Boris’ scorched Earth strategy, Boris’ time would be up.

    Or a number of lesser figures. I can't believe the Conservative Party can't find ten or twelve MPs with the required backbone and moral standards to end this dangerous, farcical premiership. I thought there were still a few good Tories left.
    If they did 67% of Tory members and the majority of Tory voters would defect an masse to the Brexit Party rather than support deposing Boris for a pro extension PM, just making Farage rather than Boris the lead right wing candidate for PM, the Tories would collapse to 3rd or even 4th
    But Farage would ride the wave of anger to become PM.

    If people think that Boris is winding them up - oh boy. Prepare to be tripling your blood pressure meds when Farage gets the levers of power.
    You really have lost it. Perhaps you need to look at Farage's history when it comes to even getting himself a seat at Westminster. Farage appeals to people of fascist or gullible tendency. Thankfully that is still a minority interest even in these febrile times.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,648

    So now weve all agreed that MPs have lost the plot and need to cool off which side do we see backing off first ? Even more which MP will be the first to make an apology to the other side ?

    I think today will be worse than yesterday.

    There will be continual demands from Opposition MPs that Johnson apologise and I expect that he will refuse to do so.

    This will bleed into the "debate" on the order paper on the "Principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate" which looks like it will be another opportunity for the government benches to taunt the Opposition benches on avoiding an immediate election with much pious humbug about the will of the people.
    Agreed, I think theres zero chance of MPs cooling off unless they agree a Tory conference as a fire break. Id add that the Speaker who traditionally should be able to cool things is now too compromised to fulfil his role. Hoyle needs to be refereeing for the next week or so, so some of the hotter heads can get a brain freeze.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568
    edited September 2019
    Boris meeting with 1922 at 11:30? Wonder what they'll be talking about... ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,077

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are two people who can end this IMO. Gove or Javid. If either were to resign or publicly deviate from Boris’ scorched Earth strategy, Boris’ time would be up.

    Or a number of lesser figures. I can't believe the Conservative Party can't find ten or twelve MPs with the required backbone and moral standards to end this dangerous, farcical premiership. I thought there were still a few good Tories left.
    If they did 67% of Tory members and the majority of Tory voters would defect an masse to the Brexit Party rather than support deposing Boris for a pro extension PM, just making Farage rather than Boris the lead right wing candidate for PM, the Tories would collapse to 3rd or even 4th
    But Farage would ride the wave of anger to become PM.

    If people think that Boris is winding them up - oh boy. Prepare to be tripling your blood pressure meds when Farage gets the levers of power.
    Farage as PM with a majority really would guarantee No Deal and a populist Trumpite government.

    Boris though will ramp up the populist rhetoric to win a Tory majority but if he did win a majority would likely pass the Withdrawal Agreement with a NI only backstop and just remove the GB backstop. Farage however opposes the Withdrawal Agreement outright
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061
    Dura_Ace said:

    OllyT said:



    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.

    WW2 marked the end of empire and Brexit is an act of funerary self-immolation to mourn it.
    If so, let's hope the suttee is followed by a good hard sweep.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.
    Think Johnson and his AG. Think Trump and his AG.
    The relationship is almost the same. These two AG's appear to be servants of the administration like any other minister.
    The difference with Trump is that his AG has been acting almost like a personal lawyer for Trump, which goes beyond even political partisanship in compromising the AG's responsibility for upholding the law.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.

    And I bet part of that conversation involved something along the lines of "you told me we'd win; you told me it was legal; what a useless lawyer you are; get out there and sort this if you want to keep your job etc....."
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    If Boris is trying to goad the opposition into a VONC, why doesn't he just call a vote himself?
  • I'm not really taking any real notice of opinion polls at all at the moment. By the time of any election, events will have moved on so substantially that current polls will have little meaning.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    That's another thing he has in common with Trump. I guess it's a strategic advantage in a polarized environment because when people are in tribal mode they'll go a long way to support and believe extreme things for their tribe, so you have a competitive advantage if you're prepared to take them further and faster than the next guy.
    Again, it's simply not true. There are plenty of examples of Boris looking and acting regretful and mortified. His friends say he is hurt by some of the more personal stuff.

    What he is, though, is cunningly ambitious. So he is learning to NOT be ashamed. To just butch it out. It might be handy for him in coming days.
  • theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    Indeed. We have a poster saying he didnt threaten MPs lives. Oh well, everything must be hunky dory then.

    What previous PM or any public figure, has the line of decency set at not threatening to kill MPs?
    Mcdonnell recently and publicly calling for a lynching, Corbyn with his choice of mates who murdered both MPs and ordinary UK citizens
    McDonnell was spectacularly out of order and his refusal to apologise shameful. (He didnt actually call for a lynching just as Boris didnt call for MPs to be killed, but his equivication on the matter was completely wrong.)
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,135
    GIN1138 said:

    Boris meeting with 1922 at 11:30? Wonder what they'll be talking about... ;)

    not what people are hoping for.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are two people who can end this IMO. Gove or Javid. If either were to resign or publicly deviate from Boris’ scorched Earth strategy, Boris’ time would be up.

    Or a number of lesser figures. I can't believe the Conservative Party can't find ten or twelve MPs with the required backbone and moral standards to end this dangerous, farcical premiership. I thought there were still a few good Tories left.
    If they did 67% of Tory members and the majority of Tory voters would defect an masse to the Brexit Party rather than support deposing Boris for a pro extension PM, just making Farage rather than Boris the lead right wing candidate for PM, the Tories would collapse to 3rd or even 4th
    But Farage would ride the wave of anger to become PM.

    If people think that Boris is winding them up - oh boy. Prepare to be tripling your blood pressure meds when Farage gets the levers of power.
    You really have lost it. Perhaps you need to look at Farage's history when it comes to even getting himself a seat at Westminster. Farage appeals to people of fascist or gullible tendency. Thankfully that is still a minority interest even in these febrile times.
    All Farage's past failures were with UKIP. The Brexit Party is a very different and much more formidable outfit.

    Take a look at their digital campaign during the EU elections for example. UKIP were never capable of producing anything like that.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are two people who can end this IMO. Gove or Javid. If either were to resign or publicly deviate from Boris’ scorched Earth strategy, Boris’ time would be up.

    Or a number of lesser figures. I can't believe the Conservative Party can't find ten or twelve MPs with the required backbone and moral standards to end this dangerous, farcical premiership. I thought there were still a few good Tories left.
    If they did 67% of Tory members and the majority of Tory voters would defect an masse to the Brexit Party rather than support deposing Boris for a pro extension PM, just making Farage rather than Boris the lead right wing candidate for PM, the Tories would collapse to 3rd or even 4th
    But Farage would ride the wave of anger to become PM.

    If people think that Boris is winding them up - oh boy. Prepare to be tripling your blood pressure meds when Farage gets the levers of power.
    Farage as PM with a majority really would guarantee No Deal and a populist Trumpite government.

    Boris though will ramp up the populist rhetoric to win a Tory majority but if he did win a majority would likely pass the Withdrawal Agreement with a NI only backstop and just remove the GB backstop. Farage however opposes the Withdrawal Agreement outright
    Hang on, I thought the other day you were forecasting Boris was going to lead the Tories into opposition? Has your position changed since I suggested you might be described as a "traitor-to-Boris"? 🤣🤣🤣
  • So now weve all agreed that MPs have lost the plot and need to cool off which side do we see backing off first ? Even more which MP will be the first to make an apology to the other side ?

    I think today will be worse than yesterday.

    There will be continual demands from Opposition MPs that Johnson apologise and I expect that he will refuse to do so.

    This will bleed into the "debate" on the order paper on the "Principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate" which looks like it will be another opportunity for the government benches to taunt the Opposition benches on avoiding an immediate election with much pious humbug about the will of the people.
    Agreed, I think theres zero chance of MPs cooling off unless they agree a Tory conference as a fire break. Id add that the Speaker who traditionally should be able to cool things is now too compromised to fulfil his role. Hoyle needs to be refereeing for the next week or so, so some of the hotter heads can get a brain freeze.
    I did notice yesterday evening I think it was Owen Paterson who was cross at the Speaker when the Speaker intervened to have other members calm down and let him speak. It seemed that Paterson felt that it was unnecessary and just an excuse to interrupt him.
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584
    One thing missing from last nights debate was any new ideas on a resolution to Brexit.

  • GIN1138 said:

    Boris meeting with 1922 at 11:30? Wonder what they'll be talking about... ;)

    Have the letters gone in already? 🤣
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,278
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    eristdoof said:

    While the politicians in the UK and the US were knocking seven bells out of each other, I got some good news yesterday evening. I will gain German citizenship on 9th October!

    I only became eligible for citizenship on 1st August after being a resident here for 6 years. The default minimum residency is 8 years, so with 6 years I needed to make a good case. I am happily surprised that the immigration office has been so quick at processing and approving my case.

    I am delighted that my citizenship comes through before brexit, which means that I will remain both a UK citizen and a citizen of a EU country REGARDLESS of when and what type of Brexit occurs. I was at one stage quite worried that I would lose my British passport due to a No Deal Crash Out.

    Have you felt a sudden urge to invade Poland?
    British obsession with the war is why we are in such a mess as a country.

    @eristdoof congratulations, I would if I could too.
    You beat me to it. When I read Eristdoof's comment I thought how long will it be before a Brexiteer brings up the war. I didn't have long to wait.

    If you ever look at any Brexit discussion on CH you won't go along without WW2 coming into it. It ended three quarters of a century ago yet they bring it up like it was last year. It is pathetic. Everyone else seems to have moved on but us.
    The idea that everybody else, apart from us, has "moved on from WW2" is poignantly ridiculous.

    Anyone who travels anywhere can confirm that the Second World War, and its legacy, absolutely dominates discourse and mindsets in Germany (guilt), Russia (pain, pride), Poland (pain, anger), Israel (of course), the Baltic States (pain, fear), and so on. It is often hidden in other issues, but it is always there.

    It's easier to pick the countries where it isn't a national trauma. Spain. Portugal. Switzerland.

    Even Japan and America are, to some extent, still living in the shadow. Which is understandable, it was the worst and greatest war in history, the greatest crime ever committed, and it gave birth to nuclear bombs. It is arguably the most pivotal moment in the human story.
    Spain has its own trauma in the Civil War
    Yes and it still overshadows their political life, as does WW2 elsewhere.

    Even now they are having a bitter argument about Franco's bones, despite the fact that virtually everyone who can remember the war is dead.
    'My Grandad told me' is quite powerful.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.
    Which is how you might expect an unprincipled trial lawyer to behave, not the government's senior law officer.

    “If you have the law, hammer the law. If you have the facts, hammer the facts. If you have neither the law nor the facts, hammer the table”.
    https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/07/04/legal-adage/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061

    Chris said:

    Just to check I'm understanding this correctly -

    How would you vote in new EU referendum?
    Leave 47
    Remain 53

    If PM fails to get Brexit deal by October 31, what should he do?
    Extend EU's EU membership 43
    Leave without deal 49
    Don't know 8

    Is it safe to assume that if the options in the second question had been "Remain" and "Leave without deal," then "Remain" would have won?

    Or should we stop taking opinion polls so seriously?

    The second question sounds like a proxy for “drag it out or get it over with”. Some of the people answering No Deal would probably support revocation.
    To my mind that is the likeliest way of reconciling those apparently contradictory results.

    It would be interesting to see how many people would agree with
    "I would just like the Brexit issue to disappear and I don't particularly mind how it's resolved."

    Has any pollster asked anything like that, I wonder.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,900
    Nigelb said:

    theakes said:

    Johnson is an eccentric, he can get away with things for a time that others cannot, but it does not take long for the others he hurts, offends or humiliates to coalesce around a respected figure and he is gone, probably to the equivalent of St Helena!!!.

    Johnson's super power is his total absence of shame. It only means that when he is brought down it will be truly spectacular.
    Indeed. We have a poster saying he didnt threaten MPs lives. Oh well, everything must be hunky dory then.

    What previous PM or any public figure, has the line of decency set at not threatening to kill MPs?
    Mcdonnell recently and publicly calling for a lynching, Corbyn with his choice of mates who murdered both MPs and ordinary UK citizens
    Which is one reason they are not fit to be in government.
    How is Johnson now any different ?
    Johnson isn't any different.

    What is not true is Johnson is a serpent and the House of Commons is the Garden of Eden.

    Johnson is a serpent, and the House of Commons is a den of snakes.
  • So now weve all agreed that MPs have lost the plot and need to cool off which side do we see backing off first ? Even more which MP will be the first to make an apology to the other side ?

    I think today will be worse than yesterday.

    There will be continual demands from Opposition MPs that Johnson apologise and I expect that he will refuse to do so.

    This will bleed into the "debate" on the order paper on the "Principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate" which looks like it will be another opportunity for the government benches to taunt the Opposition benches on avoiding an immediate election with much pious humbug about the will of the people.
    Agreed, I think theres zero chance of MPs cooling off unless they agree a Tory conference as a fire break. Id add that the Speaker who traditionally should be able to cool things is now too compromised to fulfil his role. Hoyle needs to be refereeing for the next week or so, so some of the hotter heads can get a brain freeze.
    Pretty much. Anyone can see that this parliment needs a clear out and a re-form to allow tensions to be settled.

    The more the electorate sees of this, the more the general attitude will be 'a plague on both your houses'.

    Like Brexit itself, neither side will back down, and nothing's being settled and no progress is being made.

    We need a pressure valve release, and a re-set.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 14,014

    Scott_P said:
    Verty thoughtful response to Johnson from Brendan Cox this morning, with a gentle reminder to us all, not just Boris (ex-Guardian blog report on his R4 interview):

    “I’m sure on reflection, it’s something that he would probably wish he hadn’t said. I think it was sloppy language and the wrong thing to say, but I don’t think that he is an evil man.”

    He added: “What isn’t legitimate is to co-opt her memory or her beliefs for things that she didn’t believe in or didn’t say. I was thinking about how Jo would respond to it last night. She would have tried to take a generosity of spirit to it. And thought about how in this moment, you can step back from this growing inferno of rhetoric.”

    Cox urged politicians of both sides of the Brexit debate to tone down the rhetoric used and stop portraying each other as good or evil. “We just have to have a more nuanced understanding to remember our common our common humanity,” Cox said.

    “I was genuinely shocked by the the willingness to descend to vitriol, because I think it does long lasting harm. To have this debate descend into this bear pit of polarisation, I think it’s dangerous for our country.”

    There is a willingness to jump out and decry the other side when they use language like ‘surrender’ or ‘traitor’ or ‘betrayal’. And I think that is inflammatory language. But as inflammatory are those people who have used the language of it being a ‘coup’ and ‘dictatorship’ and ‘fascism’.

    I think both of those approaches are unacceptable. It is not just bad behaviour by one side of the debate. This is something which is infected our politics, and it’s this vicious cycle where language gets more extreme, response gets more extreme, it all gets hyped up ... It creates an atmosphere where I think violence and attacks are more likely.

    You can disagree passionately with people. But you don’t have to impugn their motives, whether you are a hard Brexiteer or a hard remainer, actually, what you have in common is a desire to do what you think is best for the country.

    What isn’t acceptable is to demonize each other to build a culture of hatred to the other to create this tribal identity. Whatever happens with Brexit, the country is going to have to come together again. And we have to remember that, otherwise, we’ll be building a toxic legacy.
    Brendan Cox is IMO undeservedly kind to Johnson. Johnson clearly calculates his responses. He also appears to be very angry about what has happened with his prorogation gambit, which he takes no responsibility for.

    Johnson shares with Trump the emotional intelligence of a toddler.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,322

    Cyclefree said:

    There are slow-burning scandals either side of the Atlantic that might change everything but will probably fizzle out as these things tend to.

    Trump in the Ukraine, and Boris in Arcurigate.

    Laugh at me if you will but I have a sense that there is something smelly behind the partial leaking of a note about the A-G's legal advice and the A-G's hysterical speech yesterday attacking Parliament. It felt as if he was under pressure in some way, as if he felt he needed to go over the top to prove his loyalty or to avoid any further unfortunate leaking.

    I may be completely off the ball here but something does not smell right to me.

    Whether we will ever find out or if we do it will turn into a scandal is another matter. Were I a journalist I would do some more probing.
    I think the A-G and Johnson made a deliberate decision to raise the temperature, in a dead-cat strategy to blot out discussion of the SC verdict and simply polarise opinion.
    Think Johnson and his AG. Think Trump and his AG.
    The relationship is almost the same. These two AG's appear to be servants of the administration like any other minister.
    Indeed. Odd for Cox to go along with this. He has earned very well indeed as a QC while still an MP. So he clearly has an interest in maintaining his legal career. He risks harming his reputation and integrity if he carries on like this; think Lord Goldsmith.

    His chambers btw are called Thomas More Chambers. Oh, the irony!

  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,135

    I'm not really taking any real notice of opinion polls at all at the moment. By the time of any election, events will have moved on so substantially that current polls will have little meaning.

    I agree. Like last time, the campaign will significantly impact voting intention and we don't know when it will actually happen.

    I do wonder if there are going to be a large number of seats which are currently considered safe which change hands for the first time in decades. I could see some of the rural seats (probably norfolk, suffolk, linconshire) which are safe Tory which could go Brexit.
This discussion has been closed.