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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Rule of Law 1 Cummings/Johnson 0

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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Nah the PM thinking he is above the law trumps that.

    Brexit Shmexit
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cummings must have planned for this. There was always a good chance the supreme court would rule in this way.
  • That brooch of Lady Hale's! The girl can accessorise, I'll give her that!
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Roger said:

    JohnO said:

    And what will the Supreme Court of Public Opinion make of all this? I suspect not very much and the Tory leads will persist. I think HYUFD is spot on that Johnson will never agree to extend beyond October 31st which makes the government's resignation more than probable (but after October 17th).

    For once I think you've got this wrong. Support for your man seems to be slipping fast and he's out of the country. Traditionally a good time for a coup.
    For the last two years pretty well every prediction I've made has turned out to be gloriously and spectacularly wide of the mark. You have serious competition!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The problem with that argument is the October 31st deadline which makes an election at the moment impossible.

  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    I know this is going against the politically engaged groupthink on here but could this push Boris higher in the polls if people who currently back the Brexit Party think he is being thwarted? What percentage were they on in the last polls?
  • Mr. Foremain, Gove has the benefit of not being a complete ****ing idiot.

    The incumbent PM does not.

    Go on, Conservatives. Show some teeth. Rid yourself and the nation of a wretched imbecile.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....
  • isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    That would be the advisory referendum....?
  • I know this is going against the politically engaged groupthink on here but could this push Boris higher in the polls if people who currently back the Brexit Party think he is being thwarted? What percentage were they on in the last polls?

    Farage has other ideas, he is on the attack already sensing weakness in the Tories.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    Who’d’ve thought the PM after May was going to be even worse than her?
    Who'd have thought the PM after Cameron would be worse than him, or for that matter the PM after Brown being worse than him. They all make Blair and Major look like great statesmen. What a state we are in.
    It's hardly surprising - there are a lot of ways to earn money with far less stress.

    And being a politician in a world of 24 hour news and social media is a lot harder than before the invention of 24 hour news and social media.
  • Scott_P said:
    People aren't stupid. They can see a load of Remainers in Parliament frustrating Brexit, a load of Remainers in Parliament rejecting an election and now Remainers have won a court case.

    If you want to Leave you need to vote Tory. No Tory majority and Brexit is cancelled.
  • Drutt said:

    PM doesn't have the good grace to resign, LOTO doesn't have the balls to VONC him.

    Maybe in November?
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124

    Drutt said:

    PM doesn't have the good grace to resign, LOTO doesn't have the balls to VONC him.

    PMs have always lost court cases. That's why we have courts. I don't remember any resigning due to losing one.
    Yes but this isn't a case about the notice provisions in an immigration appeals service dispute, or anything quite so trifling. The PM is the named party and he's lost and the inner session decision that he'd lied to HMQ stands.

    It's a resigning matter, and if it isn't, it'll do until the resigning matter gets here.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Boris needs to be on the first plane home, PDQ.

    Surely he doesn't make his speech to business leaders in NY now?

    Better that he makes it in New York than Wormwood Scrubbs
  • Mrs C, the referendum was advisory, but all sides agreed beforehand to implement the results and MPs then voted to confirm the result in Parliament.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    AndyJS said:

    Cummings must have planned for this. There was always a good chance the supreme court would rule in this way.

    He has wargamed crawling back under the stone he crawled out of?
  • isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,856
    eristdoof said:

    Prorogue for Queen's speech is lawful.
    Prorogue now for Queen's speech in 5 weeks time is unlawful.

    The "only a few days" argument is dead because the SC clearly stated that recess is not the same as Prorogue.

    There's the small issue of the guillotine. Though I'm a little queasy about using that word right now.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Mrs T was out of the country at the crucial point in November 1990, wasn't she?

    She was out of the country when the first round of the leadership vote took place. She went to the opera in Paris. Flew straight back to No. 10 late evening, and summoned her cabinet one by one.

    It was these head-to-heads in No. 10 that I consider to be the "crucial point", when cabinet ministers could not tell her to her face that they would support her.
  • I know this is going against the politically engaged groupthink on here but could this push Boris higher in the polls if people who currently back the Brexit Party think he is being thwarted? What percentage were they on in the last polls?

    Agreed. Nothing has changed my prediction Tories will poll 40% by end of next month.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2019

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Dream on
    It’s the truth.

    Did we vote to leave in 2016?
    Have we left?

    And now we have a popular politician trying to force through the referendum result denied by faceless lawyers. I know this is a place where faceless lawyers and counter intuitive arguments are worshipped, but it’s not that way in the country as a whole.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Good luck trying to get the Benn bill overturned in the SC.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    JackW said:

    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....

    How will Her Majesty get on with Jezza as her PM do you think?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
    Yet all the Brexiters here and elsewhere will blame everyone except the ERG...
  • Hopefully people will now stop quoting Nikki da Costa as if she’s some sort of constitutional genius, which she clearly isn’t.
  • eek said:

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The problem with that argument is the October 31st deadline which makes an election at the moment impossible.

    If there was an election when first proposed we could have had a newly elected PM in before the EU summit in mid October.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    Drutt said:

    Drutt said:

    PM doesn't have the good grace to resign, LOTO doesn't have the balls to VONC him.

    PMs have always lost court cases. That's why we have courts. I don't remember any resigning due to losing one.
    Yes but this isn't a case about the notice provisions in an immigration appeals service dispute, or anything quite so trifling. The PM is the named party and he's lost and the inner session decision that he'd lied to HMQ stands.

    It's a resigning matter, and if it isn't, it'll do until the resigning matter gets here.
    What exactly is the “lie”?

    Lady Hale mentioned that the judgement was based on the *effect* of prougation, not the fact of it. One might say that she specifically avoided making a judgement on any specifics related to the conduct of the PM personally.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    That brooch of Lady Hale's! The girl can accessorise, I'll give her that!

    Bloody horrible.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    spudgfsh said:

    Fenman said:

    Boris needs to be on the first plane home, PDQ.

    Surely he doesn't make his speech to business leaders in NY now?

    If he's not going to resign, and Corbyn and Co aren't going to call a VONC, why should he do anything other than just carry on?
    Every Prime minister up until now would have resigned in similar circumstances.
    Did May resign after she lost in the Supreme Court?
    no, but he acts were not considered unlawful, she was told what the state of play was under the law. in this case BJ has been found to have performed acts which are unlawful.
    Please don't use the phrase "Boris...performed acts..."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    eristdoof said:

    This hearing and ruling also shows that the UK does have sovereignty even as a member of the EU.

    Ahem, we were always sovereign.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Scott_P said:
    People aren't stupid. They can see a load of Remainers in Parliament frustrating Brexit, a load of Remainers in Parliament rejecting an election and now Remainers have won a court case.

    If you want to Leave you need to vote Tory. No Tory majority and Brexit is cancelled.
    The can also see that the PM is a total Arschloch.
  • One is shocked that a man a lot of people thought would be shit at being PM is, in fact, shit at being PM.

    The big giveaway was that so many Torys thought he’d be shit. They’re the one who knew him best.
    It does rather suggest there was some truth in the belief that the Tory Party Membership was heavily infiltrated by UKIPpers.
  • image.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited September 2019

    Danny565 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What matters is the next election.

    Boris has shown conclusively that he needs a majority in the next election or there will be no Brexit.
    But, as we saw a couple of weeks ago, he doesn't currently have a majority in Parliament to impose his choice of a date for election.
    Moot. There has to be one eventually and when it comes both Parliament and Courts have shown that if you want Brexit you must vote Tory.
    Do you support this party of demagoges charlatans and lies just to get your precious Brexit?

    Does the end really justifiy the means?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Fenman said:

    Boris needs to be on the first plane home, PDQ.

    Surely he doesn't make his speech to business leaders in NY now?

    If he's not going to resign, and Corbyn and Co aren't going to call a VONC, why should he do anything other than just carry on?
    Every Prime minister up until now would have resigned in similar circumstances.
    Did May resign after she lost in the Supreme Court?
    It is not the fact that he lost in court that ought to dish him.
    Rather it is the inferences anyone with a spark of intelligence can draw from the judgment.
    It's not even that the courts rules prorogation not legal, so much as the way in which they utterly demolished the ex post facto political justifications offered for the prorogation.

    It is not the court case which should bring down the government, but rather the realisation of the government's own actions.

    Of course we have a LOTO not worth the name, and it is doubtful that Swinson would be allowed to call a VONC even if she tried.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Sandpit said:

    Drutt said:

    Drutt said:

    PM doesn't have the good grace to resign, LOTO doesn't have the balls to VONC him.

    PMs have always lost court cases. That's why we have courts. I don't remember any resigning due to losing one.
    Yes but this isn't a case about the notice provisions in an immigration appeals service dispute, or anything quite so trifling. The PM is the named party and he's lost and the inner session decision that he'd lied to HMQ stands.

    It's a resigning matter, and if it isn't, it'll do until the resigning matter gets here.
    What exactly is the “lie”?

    Lady Hale mentioned that the judgement was based on the *effect* of prougation, not the fact of it. One might say that she specifically avoided making a judgement on any specifics related to the conduct of the PM personally.
    Indeed.
  • eek said:

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The problem with that argument is the October 31st deadline which makes an election at the moment impossible.

    If there was an election when first proposed we could have had a newly elected PM in before the EU summit in mid October.
    But no guarantee that this is what the PM, who is a proven liar and law-breaker, would have scheduled...
  • eek said:

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The problem with that argument is the October 31st deadline which makes an election at the moment impossible.

    If there was an election when first proposed we could have had a newly elected PM in before the EU summit in mid October.
    Not this again. The supreme court ruled 11-0 the PM overreached his powers. One of his powers is setting the election date. Why on earth should opponents be expected to trust him on the election date?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_P said:
    People aren't stupid. They can see a load of Remainers in Parliament frustrating Brexit, a load of Remainers in Parliament rejecting an election and now Remainers have won a court case.

    If you want to Leave you need to vote Tory. No Tory majority and Brexit is cancelled.
    ROFL

    one minute the people were stupid and tricked in to voting Leave, the next minute theyre not.

  • eek said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
    Yet all the Brexiters here and elsewhere will blame everyone except the ERG...
    Ah, it's time for this again:

    It's all someone else's fault, screech the Brexiteers.
  • eek said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
    Yet all the Brexiters here and elsewhere will blame everyone except the ERG...
    The ERG didn't vote to extend. The MPs responsible for us not leaving are solely those who voted to extend.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    One is shocked that a man a lot of people thought would be shit at being PM is, in fact, shit at being PM.

    The big giveaway was that so many Torys thought he’d be shit. They’re the one who knew him best.
    It does rather suggest there was some truth in the belief that the Tory Party Membership was heavily infiltrated by UKIPpers.
    Except that he got support of about two-thirds of Conservative MPs before the members got a chance to vote.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    That brooch of Lady Hale's! The girl can accessorise, I'll give her that!

    Chronos ?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    JackW said:

    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....

    That really would be too much for ERII to do. what I suspect will happen is that someone like Ken Clarke will be asked to be emergency PM in a temporary government. Get extension from EU with the guarantee of a new referendum on TMs deal.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    One is shocked that a man a lot of people thought would be shit at being PM is, in fact, shit at being PM.

    But surprisingly they don’t want to VONC even though he has nowhere near a majority - strange times.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    I assume Farage is delighted at the spectacle of the Forces of Remain circling the wagons?

    His day as PM marches on apace....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited September 2019
    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    No it's not. The bigger picture is that anyone who voted leave and is surprised that the UK then continued to function as an adversarial parliamentary democracy should not be allowed to vote again.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The clear way out is for the government to force the issue by resigning and throwing the gauntlet down to Parliament to come up with something better if they can.

    If they can't then we'll have to have an election.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    image.

    *insert Priti Patel "I want criminals to feel terror" article here*
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    No it's not. The bigger picture is that anyone who voted leave and is surprised that the UK then continued to function as an adversarial parliamentary democracy, should not be allowed to vote again.
    Adversarial doesn't usually mean "against the electorate".
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....

    How will Her Majesty get on with Jezza as her PM do you think?
    Admirably.

    The Queen will do her duty as Sovereign as she has done from the moment her father died in 1952.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    eek said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
    Yet all the Brexiters here and elsewhere will blame everyone except the ERG...
    The ERG didn't vote to extend. The MPs responsible for us not leaving are solely those who voted to extend.
    The ERG did vote against May's Brexit. You cannot claim otherwise.
  • I know this is going against the politically engaged groupthink on here but could this push Boris higher in the polls if people who currently back the Brexit Party think he is being thwarted? What percentage were they on in the last polls?

    I think it's entirely possible. Doesn't change the fact that this is a PM and Government that will live on in infamy for the damage it has done to British institutions - to democracy, the rule of law, and the position of the monarch. Regardless of what the next YouGov says, Johnson's place in history is secure.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    TOPPING said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Fenman said:

    Boris needs to be on the first plane home, PDQ.

    Surely he doesn't make his speech to business leaders in NY now?

    If he's not going to resign, and Corbyn and Co aren't going to call a VONC, why should he do anything other than just carry on?
    Every Prime minister up until now would have resigned in similar circumstances.
    Did May resign after she lost in the Supreme Court?
    no, but he acts were not considered unlawful, she was told what the state of play was under the law. in this case BJ has been found to have performed acts which are unlawful.
    Please don't use the phrase "Boris...performed acts..."
    Even worse the implication is that "Boris Performed acts with the queen".
  • Remember Boris also faces Jennifer Arcuri-gate *innocent face*
  • Danny565 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What matters is the next election.

    Boris has shown conclusively that he needs a majority in the next election or there will be no Brexit.
    But, as we saw a couple of weeks ago, he doesn't currently have a majority in Parliament to impose his choice of a date for election.
    Moot. There has to be one eventually and when it comes both Parliament and Courts have shown that if you want Brexit you must vote Tory.
    Do you support this party of demagoges charlatans and lies just to get your precious Brexit?

    Does the end really justifiy the means?
    No and no. I support them for reasons above and beyond Brexit.
  • One is shocked that a man a lot of people thought would be shit at being PM is, in fact, shit at being PM.

    The big giveaway was that so many Torys thought he’d be shit. They’re the one who knew him best.
    It does rather suggest there was some truth in the belief that the Tory Party Membership was heavily infiltrated by UKIPpers.
    Belief? Shome mishtake shurely? I thought it was an established fact. Today's Tory paty is very different from that of even 10 years ago. As for comparisons from 20 or 30 years ago...

    The current Tory party *is* UKIP
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878
    edited September 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Imagine you're a Conservative MP (not one of the completely nuts ones) and a vote of no confidence is tabled over the Prime Minister leading the Queen into an unlawful prorogation. Enjoy defending that one in Parliament or voting for him.
    Is Corbyn even going to table one though ?
    If I was Swinson (or Blackford) I would table one, and kindly ask the Speaker to consider hearing it, saying they have the support of the other party and that whilst not convention(!), if the third and fourth largest parties in Parliament support one, at such a crucial time, it should be debated. Bercow would probably call it.

    Then roar with laughter as Labour troop through the 'No' lobby the next day.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Dream on
    It’s the truth.

    Did we vote to leave in 2016?
    Have we left?

    And now we have a popular politician trying to force through the referendum result denied by faceless lawyers. I know this is a place where faceless lawyers and counter intuitive arguments are worshipped, but it’s not that way in the country as a whole.
    "We" didn't, though I guess "you" did, along with 52% of people many of whom were told it was going to be easy and were conned on a massive scale . The percentage might well be different now reality has dawned, except you are no doubt still a religious observer of the con trick called Brexit no doubt?
  • eek said:

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The problem with that argument is the October 31st deadline which makes an election at the moment impossible.

    If there was an election when first proposed we could have had a newly elected PM in before the EU summit in mid October.
    But no guarantee that this is what the PM, who is a proven liar and law-breaker, would have scheduled...
    Parliament could vote for the date of the election. A one line bill was posted here that would have guaranteed it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    The question for Tory MPs & Johnson is, do they have the stomach for the fight ahead. I reckon a very good result for them can be in prospect in the forthcoming General Election if they do.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    I assume Farage is delighted at the spectacle of the Forces of Remain circling the wagons?

    His day as PM marches on apace....

    Yep. Brexiteers are clearly going to have to go the long way round to what what they voted for implemented - which is to vote a majority Brexit Party government into office.
  • GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....

    How will Her Majesty get on with Jezza as her PM do you think?
    I suspect it might be Jeremy Hunt, supported by 21 people who will happily have the whip restored. Minority government that respects parliament maybe?
  • spudgfsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Fenman said:

    Boris needs to be on the first plane home, PDQ.

    Surely he doesn't make his speech to business leaders in NY now?

    If he's not going to resign, and Corbyn and Co aren't going to call a VONC, why should he do anything other than just carry on?
    Every Prime minister up until now would have resigned in similar circumstances.
    Did May resign after she lost in the Supreme Court?
    no, but he acts were not considered unlawful, she was told what the state of play was under the law. in this case BJ has been found to have performed acts which are unlawful.
    Please don't use the phrase "Boris...performed acts..."
    Even worse the implication is that "Boris Performed acts with the queen".
    spudgfsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Fenman said:

    Boris needs to be on the first plane home, PDQ.

    Surely he doesn't make his speech to business leaders in NY now?

    If he's not going to resign, and Corbyn and Co aren't going to call a VONC, why should he do anything other than just carry on?
    Every Prime minister up until now would have resigned in similar circumstances.
    Did May resign after she lost in the Supreme Court?
    no, but he acts were not considered unlawful, she was told what the state of play was under the law. in this case BJ has been found to have performed acts which are unlawful.
    Please don't use the phrase "Boris...performed acts..."
    Even worse the implication is that "Boris Performed acts with the queen".
    They were all done with complete propriety and in the normal way.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    image.

    ‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’

    And, yet....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k9fE28koW4
  • eek said:

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The problem with that argument is the October 31st deadline which makes an election at the moment impossible.

    If there was an election when first proposed we could have had a newly elected PM in before the EU summit in mid October.
    Not this again. The supreme court ruled 11-0 the PM overreached his powers. One of his powers is setting the election date. Why on earth should opponents be expected to trust him on the election date?
    Parliament could have voted to enshrine the date in law.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019
    It wouldn't surprise me if this is all going to plan as far as Cummings is concerned. People vs the elites. (Not my view incidentally).
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....

    How will Her Majesty get on with Jezza as her PM do you think?
    Admirably.

    The Queen will do her duty as Sovereign as she has done from the moment her father died in 1952.
    She and her family might be booted off into exile by Jezza's second term. ;)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Queen's Bench must be feeling a little sore - to be over-ruled 11-0. How shit must they be?
  • Without getting into the rights or wrongs of this issue, I would be interested to know what legal advice was given the No10 in the run up to this.

    Legal opinions do differ from lawyer to lawyer and from judge to judge - as we have seen over the course of these cases. If the internal legal advice was that a prorogation as proposed was legal, then there was no lie. The fact that other legal minds reached a different conclusion does not mean that there was a lie - just that someone was acting on different legal advice.

    It serves none of us any good to keep using the words 'lie' and 'liar' - unless and until we have evidence that No.10 had received advice and wilfully chose to ignore it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,627
    GIN1138 said:

    This decision throws the impossible situation in Parliament into strong relief. We have a Government that does not have the confidence of the HoC and yet the HoC will not act to put it out of its misery. The key question now is what is Parliament going to do with the time that the SC has given it? Surely the only reasonable response is to VONC the Government and either call an election or try to find another Government which commands the confidence of the HoC (good luck with that!). What is the purpose and where is the dignity of keeping the Government in a straitjacket for another five weeks and just shouting at it?

    The clear way out is for the government to force the issue by resigning and throwing the gauntlet down to Parliament to come up with something better if they can.

    If they can't then we'll have to have an election.
    The only way out of this is an election. The current House of Commons can’t agree on anything or anyone.

    I wonder if the government might even call a vote of confidence in itself to start the ball rolling?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Endillion said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    No it's not. The bigger picture is that anyone who voted leave and is surprised that the UK then continued to function as an adversarial parliamentary democracy, should not be allowed to vote again.
    Adversarial doesn't usually mean "against the electorate".
    No it doesn't you're right. It means seeking party political advantage at the expense of your opponents. The central premise in the scenario analysis of those who voted Leave should have been a logjam in parliament as the Labour Party would not just not through anything the government suggested. From that point, party politics would have seen one party's vision gain the upper hand at GE2017 but this didn't happen either. All very predictable.
  • eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
    Yet all the Brexiters here and elsewhere will blame everyone except the ERG...
    The ERG didn't vote to extend. The MPs responsible for us not leaving are solely those who voted to extend.
    The ERG did vote against May's Brexit. You cannot claim otherwise.
    Yes they did. May's Brexit wasn't the only form of Brexit on the table at the time.

    After they rejected May's Deal the law of the land was that we would still leave on a set date. They didn't change that.

    ONLY MPs who voted to extend are the reason we are still in.
  • Got to say I disagree with this view from 'top psychologists'. It reminds me of what a biopsychologist lecturer I had at university said about social psychologists: they blame everything on society.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49795808

    Dancing around on the head of a linguistic pin and abandoned personal responsibility (and therefore personal agency too) is ridiculous. Not to mention the ongoing pathologising of everything under the sun (which was recognised as a problem when I was at university).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    isam said:

    image.

    ‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’

    And, yet....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k9fE28koW4
    “It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.

    Your decision.

    Nobody else’s.

    Not politicians’.

    Not Parliament’s.

    Not lobby groups’.

    Not mine.

    Just you.

    You, the British people, will decide.

    At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands.

    This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

    And it will be the final decision.

    So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave…

    …would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay…

    …I say think again.

    The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice.

    An in or out referendum.

    When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored.

    If we vote to leave, then we will leave.”
  • isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result

    The bigger picture is actually that no-one is above the law. If we are to remain a democracy, that principle is fundamental. The smaller picture is that delivering a Brexit that did not cause immense harm to the country was always going to be immensely difficult - and that is still the case. Those who claimed otherwise - and are now running the country - would do everyonr a favour is they admitted that and started looking beyond the base for solutions. EFTA/EEA will take us out. That's what shouold happen now.
  • I know this is going against the politically engaged groupthink on here but could this push Boris higher in the polls if people who currently back the Brexit Party think he is being thwarted? What percentage were they on in the last polls?

    I think it's entirely possible. Doesn't change the fact that this is a PM and Government that will live on in infamy for the damage it has done to British institutions - to democracy, the rule of law, and the position of the monarch. Regardless of what the next YouGov says, Johnson's place in history is secure.
    Much as I disagree with him I think your view of what history will write about Boris will be somewhat different to reality.
  • GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The Queen may determine to use her reserve powers and her personal prerogative to dismiss the Prime Minister.

    Of course Her Majesty may be merciful and offer Boris a political pearl handle revolver and the opportunity to resign.

    Titter ....

    How will Her Majesty get on with Jezza as her PM do you think?
    I suspect it might be Jeremy Hunt, supported by 21 people who will happily have the whip restored. Minority government that respects parliament maybe?
    That would be an acceptable outcome, seems unlikely though. Most likely Boris stays until late October, when Corbyn takes over briefly to extend.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    AndyJS said:

    It wouldn't surprise me if this is all going to plan as far as Cummings is concerned. People vs the elites. (Not my view incidentally).

    That's at least the second time you've suggested as much this morning. I wonder when the penny will drop that Cummings is as much a moron as Boris Johnson?

    He had one good knock. When he didn't have to relate to people, was fighting the establishment and wasn't accountable to anyone.

    He's an idiot.
  • Has Downing Street said anything yet?

    It's unlike them not to have at least a "Downing St source says Lady Hale's an old bag" quote up their sleeve.
  • isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Dream on
    I love how Leave fanatics refer to the "establishment" while simultaneously supporting Eton and Oxford educated Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, with his side kick bench slouching Jacob Rees-Mogg. How much more fecking "establishment" do you get than those two?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Pulpstar said:

    The question for Tory MPs & Johnson is, do they have the stomach for the fight ahead. I reckon a very good result for them can be in prospect in the forthcoming General Election if they do.

    TINA (as the good lady said).
  • Has Downing Street said anything yet?

    It's unlike them not to have at least a "Downing St source says Lady Hale's an old bag" quote up their sleeve.

    Most of them are asleep.

    In New York.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result
    Yes, those ERG spartans have a lot to answer for.
    Yet all the Brexiters here and elsewhere will blame everyone except the ERG...
    The ERG didn't vote to extend. The MPs responsible for us not leaving are solely those who voted to extend.
    The ERG did vote against May's Brexit. You cannot claim otherwise.
    Yes they did. May's Brexit wasn't the only form of Brexit on the table at the time.

    After they rejected May's Deal the law of the land was that we would still leave on a set date. They didn't change that.

    ONLY MPs who voted to extend are the reason we are still in.
    They were following their manifesto commitment not to leave in a disorderly manner.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    image.

    ‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’

    And, yet....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k9fE28koW4
    “It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.

    Your decision.

    Nobody else’s.

    Not politicians’.

    Not Parliament’s.

    Not lobby groups’.

    Not mine.

    Just you.

    You, the British people, will decide.

    At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands.

    This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

    And it will be the final decision.

    So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave…

    …would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay…

    …I say think again.

    The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice.

    An in or out referendum.

    When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored.

    If we vote to leave, then we will leave.”
    Precisely. The only way we will leave now is it a majority of MPs honour their obligations that they made before the referendum. And the only way that will happen is if leavers vote to give Boris a majority.

    No Boris majority and Brexit WILL be cancelled.
  • Bloody Hell. I didn't think they go nuclear. I'm half way through the full judgement and it's beautiful. The Norman Yoke gets a righ kicking.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Scott_P said:
    lol

    a bit optimistic to say the least
  • isam said:

    image.

    ‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’

    And, yet....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k9fE28koW4
    This isn't really going to help Boris hold his seat in Uxbridge, is it?
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    Corbyn next PM drifting from 2.88 to 3.5
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    I have updated the title to make it clear that it's the Rule of Law 11 Cummings/Johnson 0

    The bigger picture is one of the establishment refusing to carry out the referendum result

    The bigger picture is actually that no-one is above the law. If we are to remain a democracy, that principle is fundamental. The smaller picture is that delivering a Brexit that did not cause immense harm to the country was always going to be immensely difficult - and that is still the case. Those who claimed otherwise - and are now running the country - would do everyonr a favour is they admitted that and started looking beyond the base for solutions. EFTA/EEA will take us out. That's what shouold happen now.
    The front page of the pro EU Standard spells it out “‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’”... if that’s how George Osborne sees it, how do you think Leave voters will?
  • Without getting into the rights or wrongs of this issue, I would be interested to know what legal advice was given the No10 in the run up to this.

    Legal opinions do differ from lawyer to lawyer and from judge to judge - as we have seen over the course of these cases. If the internal legal advice was that a prorogation as proposed was legal, then there was no lie. The fact that other legal minds reached a different conclusion does not mean that there was a lie - just that someone was acting on different legal advice.

    It serves none of us any good to keep using the words 'lie' and 'liar' - unless and until we have evidence that No.10 had received advice and wilfully chose to ignore it.

    We are not allowed to see the legal advice. Even the cabinet is not allowed to see it!

    Surely we have to infer that if the cabinet is not allowed to see it, it was dodgy to start with?
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    image.

    ‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’

    And, yet....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k9fE28koW4
    “It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.

    Your decision.

    Nobody else’s.

    Not politicians’.

    Not Parliament’s.

    Not lobby groups’.

    Not mine.

    Just you.

    You, the British people, will decide.

    At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands.

    This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

    And it will be the final decision.

    So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave…

    …would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay…

    …I say think again.

    The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice.

    An in or out referendum.

    When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored.

    If we vote to leave, then we will leave.”
    I suspect we still will, so don't wet your knickers. Any uncertainty and delay is fully at the door of the headbanging end of the Brexit debate.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    image.

    ‘MPs could be back in days to thwart Britain’s exit from the EU’

    And, yet....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k9fE28koW4
    “It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.

    Your decision.

    Nobody else’s.

    Not politicians’.

    Not Parliament’s.

    Not lobby groups’.

    Not mine.

    Just you.

    You, the British people, will decide.

    At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands.

    This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

    And it will be the final decision.

    So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave…

    …would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay…

    …I say think again.

    The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice.

    An in or out referendum.

    When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored.

    If we vote to leave, then we will leave.”
    Why are you so deferential to Cameron? He was a reckless Prime Minister making promises he couldn’t keep.
This discussion has been closed.