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  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019

    Frankly, I do not believe anymore either sets of polls. [ Opinium, YouGov ] on the one hand and the rest on the other. We need a large MRP poll [ min 20000 ] to recalibrate our compass.

    I don't really believe any one poll, but it is worthwhile to look at the latest average of all the polls combined IMO.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Charles said:

    Recent machinations are certainly consistent with Jeremy Corbyn standing down in the not too distant future. @Charles mentioned doubts about Corbyn's health and it has long been rumoured that he is not enjoying leading the party. His past service reinforces the view that Corbyn is not personally ambitious.

    Or it could just be a clumsy overreach by Lansman.

    But three TU reps voted with Lansman. TUs don't vote accidentally. Plus all Corbyn acolytes. Maybe Corbyn left the room because he realized 2/3rd majority was not possible. It was NOT a ruthless Leftist coup. The Hard Left would have been ashamed. They reckon Momentum are a bunch of amateurs.
    Although the idiot moderates have fallen for the pretence that a “review” of the role will not lead to abolition
    Who says they have fallen for it? They may not what it means (if your summation is correct), they are just addicted to kicking the can to put off a hard decision, like most of our political classes.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    viewcode said:

    They will "call for" things. They will "slam" things. They're good at that.
    And they will stay to fight for the soul of the party. By campaigning for the absolute boy in number 10.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Given the Palace found time to tell the world Her Majesty's displeasure about some fluff will the Palace comment on this?

    https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1175478557293895683

    Have we worked out where Jeffrey Epstein got his money yet?
    Managing money
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    AndyJS said:

    Chris said:

    Given that probably the least dramatic thing that may happen between now and a general election is Johnson asking for and being given an extension, and other possibilities include leaving with No Deal, the dismissal and/or conviction of the prime minister and the formation of a government of national unity, I wish I could understand why anyone thinks it is worth feeding any of these poll ratings into a seat predictor.

    Because it's one of the main things we do on PB.
    That doesn’t make it worthwhile!
    No it's not worthwhile, but hypothesising passes the time.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Charles said:

    Recent machinations are certainly consistent with Jeremy Corbyn standing down in the not too distant future. @Charles mentioned doubts about Corbyn's health and it has long been rumoured that he is not enjoying leading the party. His past service reinforces the view that Corbyn is not personally ambitious.

    Or it could just be a clumsy overreach by Lansman.

    But three TU reps voted with Lansman. TUs don't vote accidentally. Plus all Corbyn acolytes. Maybe Corbyn left the room because he realized 2/3rd majority was not possible. It was NOT a ruthless Leftist coup. The Hard Left would have been ashamed. They reckon Momentum are a bunch of amateurs.
    Although the idiot moderates have fallen for the pretence that a “review” of the role will not lead to abolition
    This is quite a Trumpian development. Say one thing, watch the uproar for a while, then do something less severe/insane and everybody is worn out condemning the first thing that they acquiesce.
    Know what else it reminds me of? Brexit. The foamers have dragged us from leave to hard brexit to no deal with the idea that we will be so glad to step back towards a "mere" hard brexit that we'll shut up.
    It might work, but the Lib Dem shift to revoke wasn't part of the plan and it's scared the brexit jihadis.
    It's also an interesting marker for those who have been successfully gaslit. Anyone saying "I'm for remain, but this remain policy is too much!" needs to shake their head a little and remember who we're dealing with.

    I've got all sorts of reasons to dislike the Lib Dems, but I fucking love them for pushing back so hard on this. It's the first thing that's given me any hope in several years of politics.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    AndyJS said:

    Most recent polls seem to agree that Labour is on about 23%. They diverge on the Con and LD shares. Opininum has the gap at 20 points, YouGov at 8.

    The most recent poll from ComRes gave Labour 27%, from Deltapoll 28%, from Panelbase 28% - it's easy to be distracted by the polling firms that poll more frequently than others.
    Though from a brief look at the detailed poll data I'd be more inclined to trust the headline numbers from YouGov than ComRes. Quite a few Labour/LibDem supporters in the ComRes who didn't previously vote.
    Intention to vote is one of the most difficult things for pollsters . At the last GE Survation got closest because they didn’t kick out so many previous non voters from their sample .

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Labour will at least be able to count on Eddie izzard and that Greek bloke. And Picard.

    They lost PIcard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-70-years-over-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance-11474870
    Given how parties have changed over 7 decades I find it amazing someone could last that long in one party to begin with. How fortuitous that they changed in the exact same way as the party in all that time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    New YouGov poll

    Con 30 (-2)

    Lab 23 (+2)

    LD 22 (-1)

    Couldn't even last 2 polls in front of Labour, the LDs? You've let me down, you've let the country down, and you've let yourself down.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    kle4 said:

    Labour will at least be able to count on Eddie izzard and that Greek bloke. And Picard.

    They lost PIcard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-70-years-over-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance-11474870
    Given how parties have changed over 7 decades I find it amazing someone could last that long in one party to begin with. How fortuitous that they changed in the exact same way as the party in all that time.
    You know Patrick Stewart now owns a star trek TNG themed needle and thread repair shop?
    It's called make it sew.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    kle4 said:

    Labour will at least be able to count on Eddie izzard and that Greek bloke. And Picard.

    They lost PIcard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-70-years-over-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance-11474870
    Given how parties have changed over 7 decades I find it amazing someone could last that long in one party to begin with. How fortuitous that they changed in the exact same way as the party in all that time.
    If you had an even churn rate of 20% each election, over the course of 17 elections (assuming 1 every 4 years for 70 years), you'd expect 2.2% of voters to stay with the same party right through.
    Silly assumptions, but indicative that it's not completely bonkers to find someone who's been like that.
  • The Lib Dems and sundry Independents offered to pass May's deal in return for a May's Deal vs Remain referendum. The Kyle-Wilson amendment by Labour backbenchers offered the same and drew heavy support. Theresa May said No.

    If Boris is to now accept what has been on the table since last Winter he's given himself no room. " Do or Die ".

    He'll have to die first then conceed from a position of weakness. And as he's the PM would he resign if he lost said referendum ? Could he stay PM if we voted Remain ? The circumstances in which he agreed to a Boris' Deal vs Remain referendum are surely those that woukd gave forced him from office first.
  • Don't worry, once Scotland leaves that becomes a Tory majority of 50 or so...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Noo said:

    kle4 said:

    Labour will at least be able to count on Eddie izzard and that Greek bloke. And Picard.

    They lost PIcard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-70-years-over-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance-11474870
    Given how parties have changed over 7 decades I find it amazing someone could last that long in one party to begin with. How fortuitous that they changed in the exact same way as the party in all that time.
    If you had an even churn rate of 20% each election, over the course of 17 elections (assuming 1 every 4 years for 70 years), you'd expect 2.2% of voters to stay with the same party right through.
    Silly assumptions, but indicative that it's not completely bonkers to find someone who's been like that.
    Sure, but it should probably be more unusual than it is, since I bet it is a lot more than that percentage (even accepting the crude assumptions). It's football team tribalism. When someone thinks 'I am Labour/Conservative' rather than just supporting them, no wonder they justify sticking with it through all the changes - it'd be losing a part of their self identity.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    The Lib Dems and sundry Independents offered to pass May's deal in return for a May's Deal vs Remain referendum. The Kyle-Wilson amendment by Labour backbenchers offered the same and drew heavy support. Theresa May said No.

    If Boris is to now accept what has been on the table since last Winter he's given himself no room. " Do or Die ".

    He'll have to die first then conceed from a position of weakness. And as he's the PM would he resign if he lost said referendum ? Could he stay PM if we voted Remain ? The circumstances in which he agreed to a Boris' Deal vs Remain referendum are surely those that woukd gave forced him from office first.

    Do or Die was always stupid for many reasons, not least of which was he never meant it since there were plenty of ways to 'do' which he would never ever consider, just as the 'will do anything to stop no deal' crowd conveniently ignored several very easy ways to avoid it which they didn't like.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    nico67 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Most recent polls seem to agree that Labour is on about 23%. They diverge on the Con and LD shares. Opininum has the gap at 20 points, YouGov at 8.

    The most recent poll from ComRes gave Labour 27%, from Deltapoll 28%, from Panelbase 28% - it's easy to be distracted by the polling firms that poll more frequently than others.
    Though from a brief look at the detailed poll data I'd be more inclined to trust the headline numbers from YouGov than ComRes. Quite a few Labour/LibDem supporters in the ComRes who didn't previously vote.
    Intention to vote is one of the most difficult things for pollsters . At the last GE Survation got closest because they didn’t kick out so many previous non voters from their sample .

    And it will be a particular nightmare this time. Brexit? Disillusionment with politicians because of Brexit? Who knows?
  • Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    kle4 said:

    Labour will at least be able to count on Eddie izzard and that Greek bloke. And Picard.

    They lost PIcard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-70-years-over-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance-11474870
    Given how parties have changed over 7 decades I find it amazing someone could last that long in one party to begin with. How fortuitous that they changed in the exact same way as the party in all that time.
    If you had an even churn rate of 20% each election, over the course of 17 elections (assuming 1 every 4 years for 70 years), you'd expect 2.2% of voters to stay with the same party right through.
    Silly assumptions, but indicative that it's not completely bonkers to find someone who's been like that.
    Sure, but it should probably be more unusual than it is, since I bet it is a lot more than that percentage (even accepting the crude assumptions). It's football team tribalism. When someone thinks 'I am Labour/Conservative' rather than just supporting them, no wonder they justify sticking with it through all the changes - it'd be losing a part of their self identity.
    Yeah and to be honest it's something I've never understood. I spoke to a Labour voter recently who had come around to revoke, but she said no way would she vote Lib Dem. Labour all the way.
    I'm a floating voter, and it feels to me such a powerful position to be in. Like how if someone seems to be taking me for granted, I'll vote for someone else. I wish people would chop and change more, the country would be in a much better state.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/21/row-revelation-jeremy-corbyn-signed-document-accusing-israel/

    Anyone surprised?

    "Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Israel of carrying out a genocide of the Palestinian people in a far left document which also appeared to back armed resistance to the Jewish state."

    Perhaps as a good old English bloke he was being ironic rather than moronic
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    blueblue said:

    Don't worry, once Scotland leaves that becomes a Tory majority of 50 or so...
    If Scotland leaves, the last independence poll still had No on 51%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152

    AndyJS said:

    Most recent polls seem to agree that Labour is on about 23%. They diverge on the Con and LD shares. Opininum has the gap at 20 points, YouGov at 8.

    The most recent poll from ComRes gave Labour 27%, from Deltapoll 28%, from Panelbase 28% - it's easy to be distracted by the polling firms that poll more frequently than others.
    The most recent Survation also had Labour under 25%
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Floater said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/21/row-revelation-jeremy-corbyn-signed-document-accusing-israel/

    Anyone surprised?

    "Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Israel of carrying out a genocide of the Palestinian people in a far left document which also appeared to back armed resistance to the Jewish state."

    Perhaps as a good old English bloke he was being ironic rather than moronic

    Those crafty Jews. Jezza knows.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019
    Thunder and lightning forecast for Brighton.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2654710
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Noo said:

    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    kle4 said:

    Labour will at least be able to count on Eddie izzard and that Greek bloke. And Picard.

    They lost PIcard.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-patrick-stewart-breaks-with-labour-after-70-years-over-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance-11474870
    Given how parties have changed over 7 decades I find it amazing someone could last that long in one party to begin with. How fortuitous that they changed in the exact same way as the party in all that time.
    If you had an even churn rate of 20% each election, over the course of 17 elections (assuming 1 every 4 years for 70 years), you'd expect 2.2% of voters to stay with the same party right through.
    Silly assumptions, but indicative that it's not completely bonkers to find someone who's been like that.
    Sure, but it should probably be more unusual than it is, since I bet it is a lot more than that percentage (even accepting the crude assumptions). It's football team tribalism. When someone thinks 'I am Labour/Conservative' rather than just supporting them, no wonder they justify sticking with it through all the changes - it'd be losing a part of their self identity.
    Yeah and to be honest it's something I've never understood. I spoke to a Labour voter recently who had come around to revoke, but she said no way would she vote Lib Dem. Labour all the way.
    I'm a floating voter, and it feels to me such a powerful position to be in. Like how if someone seems to be taking me for granted, I'll vote for someone else. I wish people would chop and change more, the country would be in a much better state.
    Parties do serve a useful purpose with broad visions for the country and all that, but yeah, given how much they can leap around the political spectrum on issue to issue anyway, even die hard fans of one ideology should find it easier than they do.

    In fairness we have at least some politicians this year demonstrating courage of conviction and recognising that their political home no longer fitted. One can argue that some jumped before being pushed, but many don't even get that far, particularly the ones who bow out.
  • If the Conservatives are doing worse in one region than UNS suggests then they will be doing better in others to compensate.

    So changing the prediction to include a 'Scotland factor' can result in the overall number of Conservatives increasing even as the number of SCONs reduces.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Floater said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/21/row-revelation-jeremy-corbyn-signed-document-accusing-israel/

    Anyone surprised?

    "Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Israel of carrying out a genocide of the Palestinian people in a far left document which also appeared to back armed resistance to the Jewish state."

    Perhaps as a good old English bloke he was being ironic rather than moronic

    "Genocide" is too far, but not by the longest chalk. Certainly Israel is run by a racist government, is engaged in imperialist activities, has indulged in ethnic cleansing and the suppression of the votes of Arabs within its territory.
    But I think "genocide" is a step beyond that and Israel isn't there.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,509
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Chris said:

    Given that probably the least dramatic thing that may happen between now and a general election is Johnson asking for and being given an extension, and other possibilities include leaving with No Deal, the dismissal and/or conviction of the prime minister and the formation of a government of national unity, I wish I could understand why anyone thinks it is worth feeding any of these poll ratings into a seat predictor.

    Because it's one of the main things we do on PB.
    That doesn’t make it worthwhile!
    No it's not worthwhile, but hypothesising passes the time.
    So does doing a jigsaw.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Chris said:

    Given that probably the least dramatic thing that may happen between now and a general election is Johnson asking for and being given an extension, and other possibilities include leaving with No Deal, the dismissal and/or conviction of the prime minister and the formation of a government of national unity, I wish I could understand why anyone thinks it is worth feeding any of these poll ratings into a seat predictor.

    Because it's one of the main things we do on PB.
    That doesn’t make it worthwhile!
    No it's not worthwhile, but hypothesising passes the time.
    So does doing a jigsaw.
    People can waste their time as they choose, certainly.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,509

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
    Did you read about Patrick Stewart getting a hearing aid fitted on his forehead, because he couldn’t capture any sounds from units on the sides? It was the last resort of the doctors...
  • kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Chris said:

    Given that probably the least dramatic thing that may happen between now and a general election is Johnson asking for and being given an extension, and other possibilities include leaving with No Deal, the dismissal and/or conviction of the prime minister and the formation of a government of national unity, I wish I could understand why anyone thinks it is worth feeding any of these poll ratings into a seat predictor.

    Because it's one of the main things we do on PB.
    That doesn’t make it worthwhile!
    No it's not worthwhile, but hypothesising passes the time.
    So does doing a jigsaw.
    "Cricket is like doing a jigsaw: a pointless way to pass the time until you die!"
  • The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image
  • What table formatting works in vanilla comments?
    ||x||y||z||
    |1|12|16|
    html
    DoNotLike
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
    Did you read about Patrick Stewart getting a hearing aid fitted on his forehead, because he couldn’t capture any sounds from units on the sides? It was the last resort of the doctors...
    I did not
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,509

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
    Did you read about Patrick Stewart getting a hearing aid fitted on his forehead, because he couldn’t capture any sounds from units on the sides? It was the last resort of the doctors...
    I did not
    It was the final front ear.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Noo said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
    Sounds like Adam Werrity with boobs
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://order-order.com/2019/09/21/ian-austin-launches-mainstream/

    Embargoed poll of Labour members until midnight...
  • Some interesting things in the most recent Thomas Cook accounts:

    https://www.thomascookgroup.com/investors/insight_external_assest/Thomas_Cook_AR_2018_web.pdf

    It had net assets of £291m but valued 'goodwill' at nearly ten times that amount.

    And the directors seem to have been getting well paid for a business which was losing money.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    Is this satire?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    Noo said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
    An investigation of a grant in June 2018, from a Department with no connection to the PM, who was a backbencher at the time. All of which is oddly listed alongside bits and pieces which may or may not have legs, from years ago. Odd.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Noo said:

    Floater said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/21/row-revelation-jeremy-corbyn-signed-document-accusing-israel/

    Anyone surprised?

    "Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Israel of carrying out a genocide of the Palestinian people in a far left document which also appeared to back armed resistance to the Jewish state."

    Perhaps as a good old English bloke he was being ironic rather than moronic

    "Genocide" is too far, but not by the longest chalk. Certainly Israel is run by a racist government, is engaged in imperialist activities, has indulged in ethnic cleansing and the suppression of the votes of Arabs within its territory.
    But I think "genocide" is a step beyond that and Israel isn't there.
    I'm curious, what imperialistic activities?

  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
    Sounds like Adam Werrity with boobs
    You mean "disgraced former friend of disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox" Adam Werritty?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    HYUFD said:
    I really wouldn't place much faith in any poll in the conference season, especially with so much else going on.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
    Did you read about Patrick Stewart getting a hearing aid fitted on his forehead, because he couldn’t capture any sounds from units on the sides? It was the last resort of the doctors...
    I did not
    It was the final front ear.
    I thought I had the worst Picard joke in the world. I was wrong.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
    Sounds like Adam Werrity with boobs
    You mean "disgraced former friend of disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox" Adam Werritty?
    I do
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
  • Floater said:

    Noo said:

    Floater said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/21/row-revelation-jeremy-corbyn-signed-document-accusing-israel/

    Anyone surprised?

    "Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Israel of carrying out a genocide of the Palestinian people in a far left document which also appeared to back armed resistance to the Jewish state."

    Perhaps as a good old English bloke he was being ironic rather than moronic

    "Genocide" is too far, but not by the longest chalk. Certainly Israel is run by a racist government, is engaged in imperialist activities, has indulged in ethnic cleansing and the suppression of the votes of Arabs within its territory.
    But I think "genocide" is a step beyond that and Israel isn't there.
    I'm curious, what imperialistic activities?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_the_Jordan_Valley
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited September 2019
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
    Sounds like Adam Werrity with boobs
    You mean "disgraced former friend of disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox" Adam Werritty?
    Do we know he is a former friend of Fox and not a current friend of Fox? Is he not a disgraced friend of disgraced former defence secretary?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Absolutely, it'll set the world on fire that one.
  • The Lib Dems and sundry Independents offered to pass May's deal in return for a May's Deal vs Remain referendum. The Kyle-Wilson amendment by Labour backbenchers offered the same and drew heavy support. Theresa May said No.

    If Boris is to now accept what has been on the table since last Winter he's given himself no room. " Do or Die ".

    He'll have to die first then conceed from a position of weakness. And as he's the PM would he resign if he lost said referendum ? Could he stay PM if we voted Remain ? The circumstances in which he agreed to a Boris' Deal vs Remain referendum are surely those that woukd gave forced him from office first.

    What is to stop the government resigning at the very last minute on 31/10?

    Or even the week before and then blocking any alternatives?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    kyf_100 said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Absolutely, it'll set the world on fire that one.
    More about adding cumulatively to the perception of Bojo presumably, same as with Corbyn. Hopefully there are forensic anthropologists on hand to sort through all their respective skeletons.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    HYUFD said:

    A new Canadian poll out today and taken yesterday from Nanos shows the Liberal vote down a bit since the Trudeau 'blackface' affair but the Conservative vote also down slightly, albeit by less than the Liberal vote, with the main gainers the NDP and the Bloc Quebecois.

    The figures are Liberals 32%, Conservatives 36.8%, NDP 13.7%, Bloc Quebecois 5.4%, Greens 9%.

    The previous Nanos poll had it Liberals 34.2%, Conservatives 37.4%, NDP 12.8%, Bloc Quebecois 3.5%, Greens 9.3%.

    Justin Trudeau still leads as preferred PM on 32% to 29% for Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer and 10% for NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh.

    https://secureservercdn.net/198.71.233.47/823.910.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2019-1445-CTV-Globe-ELXN-Ending-September-20-2019.pdf

    Mainstreet also has a Canadian poll out today with the Liberals on 35.9%, Conservatives on 34.2% and NDP on 10.9%

    https://ipolitics.ca/2019/09/21/liberals-slip-in-new-mainstreet-polling-numbers/
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Floater said:

    Noo said:

    Floater said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/21/row-revelation-jeremy-corbyn-signed-document-accusing-israel/

    Anyone surprised?

    "Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn accused Israel of carrying out a genocide of the Palestinian people in a far left document which also appeared to back armed resistance to the Jewish state."

    Perhaps as a good old English bloke he was being ironic rather than moronic

    "Genocide" is too far, but not by the longest chalk. Certainly Israel is run by a racist government, is engaged in imperialist activities, has indulged in ethnic cleansing and the suppression of the votes of Arabs within its territory.
    But I think "genocide" is a step beyond that and Israel isn't there.
    I'm curious, what imperialistic activities?

    The occupied territories.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,509

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
    Did you read about Patrick Stewart getting a hearing aid fitted on his forehead, because he couldn’t capture any sounds from units on the sides? It was the last resort of the doctors...
    I did not
    It was the final front ear.
    I thought I had the worst Picard joke in the world. I was wrong.
    😁 I try my best!
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Uh oh. That smells like corruption. Glad to see an investigation is underway.
    Sounds like Adam Werrity with boobs
    You mean "disgraced former friend of disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox" Adam Werritty?
    Do we know he is a former friend of Fox and not a current friend of Fox? Is he not a disgraced friend of disgraced former defence secretary?
    No idea. My main aim was the play on words rather than to express the state of their relationship.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    The anthem needs to be ditched in favour of something a bit more uplifting ! I love the Italian National anthem ! Or perhaps we could get Benny from ABBA to compose something new ! Lol

    I personally don’t mind the monarchy , it’s better than having another politician as President .

    I think Harry’s great and adored Diana . The thing is the membership is only a small minority of actual Labour voters .

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    nico67 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    The anthem needs to be ditched in favour of something a bit more uplifting ! I love the Italian National anthem ! Or perhaps we could get Benny from ABBA to compose something new ! Lol

    I personally don’t mind the monarchy , it’s better than having another politician as President .

    I think Harry’s great and adored Diana . The thing is the membership is only a small minority of actual Labour voters .

    Vindaloo. Greatest anthem in the world.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    Will either be in the manifesto though?
  • AndyJS said:

    Frankly, I do not believe anymore either sets of polls. [ Opinium, YouGov ] on the one hand and the rest on the other. We need a large MRP poll [ min 20000 ] to recalibrate our compass.

    I don't really believe any one poll, but it is worthwhile to look at the latest average of all the polls combined IMO.
    I can't work out how to do a properly formatted table in the comments, so I won't post all the figures, but here are the Mean (and Median) of the most recent poll from all eleven pollsters

    Conservative 33 (31)
    Labour 26 (26)
    Liberal Democrat 19 (19)
    Brexit Party 12 (13)
    Green 4 (4)

    I'm most surprised by the Con+BXP being roughly equal to Lab+Lib. Not what I've been conditioned to expect from the more frequent YouGov polls.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    Sky say Thomas Cook are meeting creditors at a City law firm at 9 am tomorrow for a final attempt at saving the company. The briefing seems to be they'll fold by the early hours of Monday at the latest if no deal is done.

    If they do go it's the sort of story that will receive absurd quantities of coverage out of all proportion to either its macroeconomic or human signifigance. That said the Government handled the collapse of Monarch very well with Chris Grayling in charge. While this is of a larger scale by about 50% it's not as if the rescue effort is unprecedented.

    At least it will briefly change the national conversation from Brexit.

    Oh God, we will have the interviews with angry gimps complaining the government didn't fly them on private jets with gold toilets from their flea pit hotel in Aiya Napa
    It's already started. Someone who only took the exact amount of crucial heart medication and will apparently die if their flight is delayed. They might win a Darwin Award though. Someone else will run out of nappies and wetwipes, are a " 20 min Taxi ride from the nearest town " and " we don't speak Spanish. "
    People. Ugh.
    Did you read about Patrick Stewart getting a hearing aid fitted on his forehead, because he couldn’t capture any sounds from units on the sides? It was the last resort of the doctors...
    I did not
    It was the final front ear.
    I thought I had the worst Picard joke in the world. I was wrong.
    So sad that William Shatner has fallen to making a living from doing voiceovers for toilet cleaner ads.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    Will either be in the manifesto though?
    Dosen't matter; HYUFD will just find another party somewhere in the world that has an "L" in its name and believes those things, and imagine that it must also be Labour policy.
  • Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    Half of Labour voters willing to tactically vote LD but only a third of LD voters willing to tactically vote Labour to beat the Tories
    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1175539855167807492?s=20
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2019
    Bloody hell: on Radio Five Live there was just an interview with someone who isn't being allowed to check out from their hotel to catch a flight because the hotel says they haven't been paid by Thomas Cook. They're effectively being "held hostage", in their words, unless they pay the hotel directly. The gates are being kept shut by security guards. In Tunisia I think.
  • Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp

    I'm almost cynical about polling by campaign groups that just happens to meet what they're campaigning for.

    Have the questions asked been publicised yet? And the order they were asked in?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp

    Yes.......But....

    Could there not be Tactical voting between Con and Brexit Party?

    It may be less or at least less effective, I don't know but to consider that only one side will tactical vote is not a goo prediction tool.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,711
    edited September 2019
    Need to allow for fact there would have been tactical voting in 2017.

    So the relevant factor is any change in the amount of tactical voting vs 2017.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    BigRich said:

    Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp

    Yes.......But....

    Could there not be Tactical voting between Con and Brexit Party?

    It may be less or at least less effective, I don't know but to consider that only one side will tactical vote is not a goo prediction tool.
    I expect there is more scope for Brexit Party tactical voting for the Tories than LD tactical voting for Corbyn Labour based on those YouGov figures
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    Now, in the YouGov poll, 35 per cent of Lib Dem and 42 per cent of Green voters are ready to switch to Jeremy Corbyn‘s party if they “thought that the only parties with a realistic chance of winning in your constituency were the Conservatives or Labour”.

    A bit leading.

    There are some Lib Dem targets with healthy Labour scores that they'll almost certainly gain if there's 50% Labour tactical voting though like St Albans, Cheadle and Hazel Grove.
  • MikeL said:

    Need to allow for fact there would have been tactical voting in 2017.

    So the relevant factor is any change in the amount of tactical voting vs 2017.

    Indeed.

    And a little googling shows that there were plenty of claims about huge tactical voting in 2017.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    The findings about tactical voting just push these poll-based seat projections even further into the realms of fantasy. A complete waste of time.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BigRich said:

    Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp

    Yes.......But....

    Could there not be Tactical voting between Con and Brexit Party?

    It may be less or at least less effective, I don't know but to consider that only one side will tactical vote is not a goo prediction tool.
    The problem for the Tories is that a lot of Brexit Party supporters are culturally accustomed to voting Labour in previous times. It's difficult for them to get in the mindset of voting tactically for the Conservatives.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    AndyJS said:

    BigRich said:

    Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp

    Yes.......But....

    Could there not be Tactical voting between Con and Brexit Party?

    It may be less or at least less effective, I don't know but to consider that only one side will tactical vote is not a goo prediction tool.
    The problem for the Tories is that a lot of Brexit Party supporters are culturally accustomed to voting Labour in previous times. It's difficult for them to get in the mindset of voting tactically for the Conservatives.
    More Brexit Party voters voted Tory in 2017 than Labour on current polls
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I hope Boris Johnson is on the case. This is the sort of thing that can get out of control for a government with 150,000 people on holiday with the company.

    https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1175549865780293632
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    what does abolish britains borders mean?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    what does abolish britains borders mean?
    No border controls or restrictions on migration to the UK
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Chris said:

    The findings about tactical voting just push these poll-based seat projections even further into the realms of fantasy. A complete waste of time.

    This is far too sensible for most on here
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    BigRich said:

    Tactical voting could cost the Conservatives up to 60 seats at a snap general election and eject Boris Johnson from No 10, new polling has found.

    Almost half of Labour supporters and an even higher proportion of Greens say they are ready to switch to the Liberal Democrats if it would help defeat the party committed to Brexit in their constituency.

    More than a third of Lib Dem backers would make the opposite journey at the ballot box – potentially delivering 60 seats and a mortal blow to Mr Johnson’s hopes of winning a majority.

    The poll, for the People’s Vote campaign, comes after it unveiled plans for the biggest vote-swapping drive in history, to support the best-placed candidate in more than 100 battleground seats.

    “Tactical voting could damage Johnson’s prospects fatally, meaning Labour could make net gains from the Tories,” said pollster Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-poll-boris-johnson-conservatives-brexit-lib-dems-labour-a9114826.html?amp

    Yes.......But....

    Could there not be Tactical voting between Con and Brexit Party?

    It may be less or at least less effective, I don't know but to consider that only one side will tactical vote is not a goo prediction tool.
    The problem for the Tories is that a lot of Brexit Party supporters are culturally accustomed to voting Labour in previous times. It's difficult for them to get in the mindset of voting tactically for the Conservatives.
    More Brexit Party voters voted Tory in 2017 than Labour on current polls
    Though they have moved away for a reason, and despite the new leader and hard line on Brexit.

    I wouldn't put too much weight on seat projections until YouGov do another seat based analysis.
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    HYUFD said:

    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    what does abolish britains borders mean?
    No border controls
    that's not the same as abolishing borders so would you like to edit your previous comment
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    Chris said:

    The findings about tactical voting just push these poll-based seat projections even further into the realms of fantasy. A complete waste of time.

    No they don't as most LD voters will clearly not vote Corbyn Labour even in Labour v Tory marginal seats.

    The only difference they might make is the LDs might gain a few more seats from the Tories than UNS suggests as more Labour voters are willing to tactically vote LD than vice-versa
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    only 62 % want Britain to become a republic? that seems low
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    Labour to unveil plans to scrap Ofsted

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49783047

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Artist said:

    Now, in the YouGov poll, 35 per cent of Lib Dem and 42 per cent of Green voters are ready to switch to Jeremy Corbyn‘s party if they “thought that the only parties with a realistic chance of winning in your constituency were the Conservatives or Labour”.

    A bit leading.

    There are some Lib Dem targets with healthy Labour scores that they'll almost certainly gain if there's 50% Labour tactical voting though like St Albans, Cheadle and Hazel Grove.

    I'll post this again 'cos I love it and is an excellent comment on today's shenanigans

    https://youtu.be/wTxUPXOMhq8
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    spire2 said:

    only 62 % want Britain to become a republic? that seems low

    A few perhaps attracted by the woke views of Meghan
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited September 2019
    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    what does abolish britains borders mean?
    No border controls
    that's not the same as abolishing borders so would you like to edit your previous comment
    No I would not as there is no difference, the question asked about abolishing Britain's borders and that means as I said no border controls.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    HYUFD said:

    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    62% of Labour Party members want Britain to become a republic, just 15% are proud of British history and only one in five would be proud to sing the national anthem. Most blame the media or Corbyn's opponents for anti-Semitism allegations.

    Most Labour members polled by YouGov also want to abolish Britain's borders and abolish the nuclear deterrent and blame Britain rather than the IRA for terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFBVSq9WsAA05Xk?format=jpg&name=large

    Given overall numbers in support of a Republic I am not surprised a high percentage of Labour members do, unfortunately a lot of people have no pride in British history and a lot of people dislike the anthem even if they are proud of this country, and it's no surprise that most think the anti-semitism allegations are not their fault.

    The last three do surprise me a little though, less so on the nuclear deterrent than the other two.
    I would imagine Labour members support for open door immigration and abolishing the monarchy will not go down well in working class Labour Leave seats
    what does abolish britains borders mean?
    No border controls
    that's not the same as abolishing borders so would you like to edit your previous comment
    No I would not as there is no difference, the question asked about abolishing Britain's borders and that means as I said no border controls.
    Surely way past your bedtime?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Chris said:

    The findings about tactical voting just push these poll-based seat projections even further into the realms of fantasy. A complete waste of time.

    This is far too sensible for most on here
    If someone knows it's a waste of time but does the seat projection just because, thats not insensible or sensible.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    The findings about tactical voting just push these poll-based seat projections even further into the realms of fantasy. A complete waste of time.

    No they don't as most LD voters will clearly not vote Corbyn Labour even in Labour v Tory marginal seats.

    The only difference they might make is the LDs might gain a few more seats from the Tories than UNS suggests as more Labour voters are willing to tactically vote LD than vice-versa
    Well, YouGov estimates it could cost the Tories up to 60 seats. No doubt you know better, as always.

    But even if you could ignore the likely effect of tactical voting, you'd still be stuck with the fact that the political situation will have changed dramatically by the time of the election. We'll either have left the EU or we'll have extended, and whichever of those happens will potentially have a huge effect on party support. Obsessing over the current polls is just as much of a waste of time as it was one, two, three or four months ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chris said:

    The findings about tactical voting just push these poll-based seat projections even further into the realms of fantasy. A complete waste of time.

    No they don't as most LD voters will clearly not vote Corbyn Labour even in Labour v Tory marginal seats.

    The only difference they might make is the LDs might gain a few more seats from the Tories than UNS suggests as more Labour voters are willing to tactically vote LD than vice-versa
    Well, YouGov estimates it could cost the Tories up to 60 seats. No doubt you know better, as always.

    But even if you could ignore the likely effect of tactical voting, you'd still be stuck with the fact that the political situation will have changed dramatically by the time of the election. We'll either have left the EU or we'll have extended, and whichever of those happens will potentially have a huge effect on party support. Obsessing over the current polls is just as much of a waste of time as it was one, two, three or four months ago.
    No Peter Kellner whose wife is a former EU commissioner and is a diehard Remainer 'estimates' the raw data does not suggest that clearly at all especially as 2/3 of LD voters would refuse to vote for Corbyn Labour in Labour v Tory marginals the poll says and also as it ignores Brexit Party tactical voting for the Tories (given Brexit Party voters overwhelmingly prefer Boris to Corbyn as PM on current polling).

    We won't have left without a Deal as Parliament has legislated against that and Boris will refuse to extend under any circumstances at all, including going into opposition rather than extending and a Deal is unlikely in this Parliament given the EU will not remove the backstop and the DUP will vote against a NI only backstop and not enough Labour MPs will vote for the Withdrawal Agreement
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    HYUFD said:

    Peter Kellner whose wife is a former EU commissioner and is a diehard Remainer...

    They also own a Dalek.

    Yes, really.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Was at a wedding where I didn't have a +1. Tested the Tory power pose. Did my best George Osborne impression. It went down better than my very low expectations, but that could be the gun talking. The sexy bridesmaid definitely wanted a piece, I put that down to the power pose, there's no way it would have happened without it!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    edited September 2019

    The Johnson story looks quite serious.

    image

    Jet set Johnson vs Loser Corbyn ?
  • AndyJS said:

    I hope Boris Johnson is on the case. This is the sort of thing that can get out of control for a government with 150,000 people on holiday with the company.

    https://twitter.com/SimonCalder/status/1175549865780293632

    Perhaps Boris can arrange free accommodation by announcing they are all spies, like he did for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.

    To be serious, this is another reason, besides the costs, for the government to intervene. As suggested earlier, Number 10 is probably, and quite cynically, considering the electoral impact.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited September 2019
    Did we do the Seltzer Iowa poll?

    https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-poll/2019/09/22/iowa-poll-election-2020-iowa-caucus-elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-bernie-sanders-democrat-candidates/2370015001/

    Warren 22%
    Biden 20%
    Sanders 11%
    Buttigieg 9%
    Harris 6%
    Booker 3%
    KLOBUCHAR 3%
    Gabbard 2%
    O’Rourke 2%
    Steyer 2%
    Yang 2%
    Bullock 1%
    Castro 1%
    Delaney 1%
  • I wonder if we'll see Biden drop some more with the whole Ukraine story. I know the provable wrongdoing is Trump's not Biden's, but the story is complicated and most of Biden's support seems to be from Dems who think everyone else is going to vote for him, so a hint of scandal seems bad, even if it's a non-scandal.
This discussion has been closed.