This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
Oh, you don't need to go back as far as 1588. As recently as last year traitorous MPs were trying to conduct parallel negotiations with the enemy:
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
That depends on the demographics of where you live. There are certainly places where flying a Union Jack would cause more raised eyebrows than flying an EU flag. (I live in one such.)
Read about people who try to wear MAGA hats in liberal parts of the USA. They get beaten to shit. The idea this couldn’t happen in the UK is nuts.
Byronic, HYUFD and one or two others are full of hyperbole today.
Yep there's some anger around on both sides. But it's not just about Brexit. And, frankly, the most dominant feeling towards it tedium. People are fed up with it and wish it to go away. If there is a General Election then despite the Johnson-Cummings best efforts, Brexit won't be the only story or even the most important one. In poll after poll up until Cameron's unnecessary diversion, 'Europe' never featured in the top ten of issues that interested or vexed people.
This is the first reason why Corbyn's Labour will do much better than some on here think.
The second reason is a fundamental principle. Perhaps THE fundamental principle. The tories are ripping themselves apart before our eyes, right into Downing St itself. Far from unifying the party around a single cause as HYUFD would have you believe in his evangelical zeal, the fanaticism is causing a schism of epic blue-on-blue proportions, pumped by the 'threat' from Farage's Brexit Party. You think it's bad now? It will be one hundred times worse during an election campaign.
Quite simply, parties that aren't united don't win elections. And the tories are self-immolating before our eyes.
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Whereas the Remainers who constantly used the threat of renewed violence in Ireland, in case of Brexit, are.... what?
Christ. Your hypocrisy is unending.
I hope s/he is very young. In that context you can put their silly posts down to naivety. If they are an adult then it’s all just a bit sad (the same applies to some of the ardent leave posters on here).
What on earth are you on about?
I live in a Northern Leave constituency. I have many Leave voting friends. No-one would give two sh*ts if I carried an EU flag down the street.
There was a stop the coup protest in Newcastle City Centre on Saturday at the same time as 52,000 football fans were in the City Centre. No violence.
Wasn't Newcastle quite close to the median vote ? Sunderland strikes me as much brexitier than Newcastle.
Yes but (city of) Newcastle is very small and most commute in for the matches from the very Leave surrounding areas.
The figures mean nothing if you don’t understand the local areas.
On the face of it, Boris is in trouble - he doesn't control the Commons and he's in a far weaker position in Lords.
But surely Corbyn has to be very careful - optics of denying a GE could be very bad indeed. Boris will just say "Let the people decide etc".
If legislation blocking No Deal is put on statute book pre GE and Boris then wins a majority, Lords could block immediate repeal of that legislation. But would they? It would look horrendous - Boris would just have won a GE, he would have as clear a mandate as possible - would be very dangerous for Lords to try to over-ride that.
So whilst Boris looks cornered with no way out, I just wonder.
Yes, I'm sure if Boris wins a substantial majority running on No Deal then he can get the resulting parliament to let him do it. But he doesn't want to run on No Deal because a supermajority of voters think it's nuts. He wants to run on The EU Will Totally Bend To My Iron Will And There Will Be A Deal.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
Oh, you don't need to go back as far as 1588. As recently as last year traitorous MPs were trying to conduct parallel negotiations with the enemy:
Consorting with *gasp* the lead agent of a foreign power. Whatever will Byronic make of it ?
Byronic? As we speak @HYUFD is on the 13.17 to North Somerset clad only in a suit of armour carrying a pikestaff.
As pikemen normally wear only breastplate and backplate, that would be a sight indeed. And I do hope his pike is collapsible.
Popular culture has Spartans fighting only in their helmets. I hope Byronic is showing cultural sensitivity by posting so attired.
And that he has vowed to return with his shield, or on it.
Until late yesterday evening I had no idea that Spartan girls were traditionally encouraged to sleep with virile males, even if their husbands were off fighting or whatever, so as to keep them in breeding shape. An exquisite discovery.
It used to be the case that if a government decided to resign you automatically got a general election. I'm still not sure what happens now if the government decides to call time on itself.
It’s the weirdest bit of the FTPA. If Boris resigns but declines to advise on any successor, what happens? All the conventions that came in pre-FTPA were designed to keep the sovereign out of it.
Surely the Queen would be advised (By Mogg !) to call for Corbyn ?
I'm no fan of his but he has a constitutional right - by convention - to try and form a Gov't I think. He is the Leader of the Opposition.
He'd happily sign the letter to become PM - then follows either a Corbyn Gov't unable to get through any sort of legislation (Till 2022 !) whatsoever or a General Election.
This is the only route out for Johnson potentially given he has said point blank he won't sign the letter.
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Anyone threatening violence or worse from either side is losing the plot
Lets have a GE and give the nation a voice in who they want to govern us and start with a fresh looking HOC, as there are too many entrenched and out of touch mps at present
I would expect Boris to lead the biggest party but a coalition of the rest could well see a referendum and as I have said before in 2020, which is the earliest a referendum could be held, the result due to the changed democracy and the youth vote should seee a good majority to remain
In my opinion that is now the most likely outcome and that should calm public anger, hopefully
Not a chance. You are deluded if you think reversing the referendum decision without it being enacted will 'calm things down'. You will break democracy in this country.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
I can certainly imagine one of the first targets for ire will be cars getting trashed with the EU blue background and stars on their car number plates.
(And before anybody gets outraged that I am inciting violence, of course I'm not. Just recognising that some easily-roused idiots have an easy target all around them.
If I really wanted to map out violence - for a plot-line in a novel, for example - I reckon the most memorable terrorist outrage yet on UK soil could be done with two guys on pizza delivery bikes and £100....not that I am ever going to share it, for obvious reasons. It's THAT easy....)
Is it a myth that dachshunds were stoned in the streets for being German at the outbreak of one/both of the WWs?
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Whereas the Remainers who constantly used the threat of renewed violence in Ireland, in case of Brexit, are.... what?
Christ. Your hypocrisy is unending.
I hope s/he is very young. In that context you can put their silly posts down to naivety. If they are an adult then it’s all just a bit sad (the same applies to some of the ardent leave posters on here).
What on earth are you on about?
I live in a Northern Leave constituency. I have many Leave voting friends. No-one would give two sh*ts if I carried an EU flag down the street.
There was a stop the coup protest in Newcastle City Centre on Saturday at the same time as 52,000 football fans were in the City Centre. No violence.
Wasn't Newcastle quite close to the median vote ? Sunderland strikes me as much brexitier than Newcastle.
Newcastle voted marginally Remain. NUFC are the team of the entire Northumberland and most of Tyneside as well. Which assuredly did not.
Byronic, HYUFD and one or two others are full of hyperbole today.
Yep there's some anger around on both sides. But it's not just about Brexit. And, frankly, the most dominant feeling towards it tedium. People are fed up with it and wish it to go away. If there is a General Election then despite the Johnson-Cummings best efforts, Brexit won't be the only story or even the most important one. In poll after poll up until Cameron's unnecessary diversion, 'Europe' never featured in the top ten of issues that interested or vexed people.
This is the first reason why Corbyn's Labour will do much better than some on here think.
The second reason is a fundamental principle. Perhaps THE fundamental principle. The tories are ripping themselves apart before our eyes, right into Downing St itself. Far from unifying the party around a single cause as HYUFD would have you believe in his evangelical zeal, the fanaticism is causing a schism of epic blue-on-blue proportions, pumped by the 'threat' from Farage's Brexit Party. You think it's bad now? It will be one hundred times worse during an election campaign.
Quite simply, parties that aren't united don't win elections. And the tories are self-immolating before our eyes.
I see absolutely no evidence that, notwithstanding the chaos, Corbyn and his hard left core have any credibility with the public. Indeed Corbyn is the one and only reason labour are not out of sight
If the election is on the 14th October that is only 6 weeks away and in that campaign Brexit with dominate and expect Farage to launch a full scale attack on labours brexit. Corbyn is now known and his shouty revolution style campaigning is so yesterday
I expect success for the SNP and lib dems, with the conservatives losing seats to both but gaining labour held seats in England and Wales, while labour is eliminated in Scotland and under huge pressure in London and the South
This is the only route out for Johnson potentially given he has said point blank he won't sign the letter.
His other way out is to back down and sign the letter. He can draw whatever picture he wants on it to assure the No Deal enthusiasts that he's still on their side.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
I can certainly imagine one of the first targets for ire will be cars getting trashed with the EU blue background and stars on their car number plates.
(And before anybody gets outraged that I am inciting violence, of course I'm not. Just recognising that some easily-roused idiots have an easy target all around them.
If I really wanted to map out violence - for a plot-line in a novel, for example - I reckon the most memorable terrorist outrage yet on UK soil could be done with two guys on pizza delivery bikes and £100....not that I am ever going to share it, for obvious reasons. It's THAT easy....)
Is it a myth that dachshunds were stoned in the streets for being German at the outbreak of one/both of the WWs?
German shepherds had to change their name. To Alsatians.
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Anyone threatening violence or worse from either side is losing the plot
Lets have a GE and give the nation a voice in who they want to govern us and start with a fresh looking HOC, as there are too many entrenched and out of touch mps at present
I would expect Boris to lead the biggest party but a coalition of the rest could well see a referendum and as I have said before in 2020, which is the earliest a referendum could be held, the result due to the changed democracy and the youth vote should seee a good majority to remain
In my opinion that is now the most likely outcome and that should calm public anger, hopefully
Not a chance. You are deluded if you think reversing the referendum decision without it being enacted will 'calm things down'. You will break democracy in this country.
I think Big G means it should calm Remainer anger (because that's all the matters at the end of the day)
It used to be the case that if a government decided to resign you automatically got a general election. I'm still not sure what happens now if the government decides to call time on itself.
It’s the weirdest bit of the FTPA. If Boris resigns but declines to advise on any successor, what happens? All the conventions that came in pre-FTPA were designed to keep the sovereign out of it.
Surely the Queen would be advised (By Mogg !) to call for Corbyn ?
I'm no fan of his but he has a constitutional right - by convention - to try and form a Gov't I think. He is the Leader of the Opposition.
He'd happily sign the letter to become PM - then follows either a Corbyn Gov't unable to get through any sort of legislation (Till 2022 !) whatsoever or a General Election.
This is the only route out for Johnson potentially given he has said point blank he won't sign the letter.
I think probably it has to be Corbyn, which then raises the amusing prospect of him losing a confidence vote the next day, and being in power for only 6-8 weeks. Boris could have the record of shortest PM snatched from him inside the year!
Byronic, HYUFD and one or two others are full of hyperbole today.
Yep there's some anger around on both sides. But it's not just about Brexit. And, frankly, the most dominant feeling towards it tedium. People are fed up with it and wish it to go away. If there is a General Election then despite the Johnson-Cummings best efforts, Brexit won't be the only story or even the most important one. In poll after poll up until Cameron's unnecessary diversion, 'Europe' never featured in the top ten of issues that interested or vexed people.
This is the first reason why Corbyn's Labour will do much better than some on here think.
The second reason is a fundamental principle. Perhaps THE fundamental principle. The tories are ripping themselves apart before our eyes, right into Downing St itself. Far from unifying the party around a single cause as HYUFD would have you believe in his evangelical zeal, the fanaticism is causing a schism of epic blue-on-blue proportions, pumped by the 'threat' from Farage's Brexit Party. You think it's bad now? It will be one hundred times worse during an election campaign.
Quite simply, parties that aren't united don't win elections. And the tories are self-immolating before our eyes.
I see absolutely no evidence that, notwithstanding the chaos, Corbyn and his hard left core have any credibility with the public. Indeed Corbyn is the one and only reason labour are not out of sight
If the election is on the 14th October that is only 6 weeks away and in that campaign Brexit with dominate and expect Farage to launch a full scale attack on labours brexit. Corbyn is now known and his shouty revolution style campaigning is so yesterday
I expect success for the SNP and lib dems, with the conservatives losing seats to both but gaining labour held seats in England and Wales, while labour is eliminated in Scotland and under huge pressure in London and the South
If the election is on 14th October Farage will launch a full-scale attack on Johnson saying he is going to bring back a reheated version of May's deal and cannot be trusted to follow the one true path and go for a no deal Brexit. And since Johnson is the least trusted politician since Lloyd George this attack will hit home.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
I can certainly imagine one of the first targets for ire will be cars getting trashed with the EU blue background and stars on their car number plates.
(And before anybody gets outraged that I am inciting violence, of course I'm not. Just recognising that some easily-roused idiots have an easy target all around them.
If I really wanted to map out violence - for a plot-line in a novel, for example - I reckon the most memorable terrorist outrage yet on UK soil could be done with two guys on pizza delivery bikes and £100....not that I am ever going to share it, for obvious reasons. It's THAT easy....)
Is it a myth that dachshunds were stoned in the streets for being German at the outbreak of one/both of the WWs?
Dunno. But the "House of Windsor" weren't taking any chances....
EDIT: Thinking about it, t'was probably cuz sausages were rationed.....
On the face of it, Boris is in trouble - he doesn't control the Commons and he's in a far weaker position in Lords.
But surely Corbyn has to be very careful - optics of denying a GE could be very bad indeed. Boris will just say "Let the people decide etc".
If legislation blocking No Deal is put on statute book pre GE and Boris then wins a majority, Lords could block immediate repeal of that legislation. But would they? It would look horrendous - Boris would just have won a GE, he would have as clear a mandate as possible - would be very dangerous for Lords to try to over-ride that.
So whilst Boris looks cornered with no way out, I just wonder.
Yes, I'm sure if Boris wins a substantial majority running on No Deal then he can get the resulting parliament to let him do it. But he doesn't want to run on No Deal because a supermajority of voters think it's nuts. He wants to run on The EU Will Totally Bend To My Iron Will And There Will Be A Deal.
I don't think he'll run on No Deal.
He'll run on keeping No Deal on the table.
ie He'll say he'll negotiate with the EU post GE - but if negotiations fail he'll repeal the Act of Parliament so we can exit with No Deal.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
Oh, you don't need to go back as far as 1588. As recently as last year traitorous MPs were trying to conduct parallel negotiations with the enemy:
It used to be the case that if a government decided to resign you automatically got a general election. I'm still not sure what happens now if the government decides to call time on itself.
It’s the weirdest bit of the FTPA. If Boris resigns but declines to advise on any successor, what happens? All the conventions that came in pre-FTPA were designed to keep the sovereign out of it.
The only thing that can happen is that Corbyn is given 14 days to see if he can command the confidence of the House, which he clearly cannot. So you'd have 14 wasted days in those circumstances.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
I can certainly imagine one of the first targets for ire will be cars getting trashed with the EU blue background and stars on their car number plates.
(And before anybody gets outraged that I am inciting violence, of course I'm not. Just recognising that some easily-roused idiots have an easy target all around them.
If I really wanted to map out violence - for a plot-line in a novel, for example - I reckon the most memorable terrorist outrage yet on UK soil could be done with two guys on pizza delivery bikes and £100....not that I am ever going to share it, for obvious reasons. It's THAT easy....)
Is it a myth that dachshunds were stoned in the streets for being German at the outbreak of one/both of the WWs?
German shepherds had to change their name. To Alsatians.
Saxe Coburg Gothas had to change their names to Windsor
On the face of it, Boris is in trouble - he doesn't control the Commons and he's in a far weaker position in Lords.
But surely Corbyn has to be very careful - optics of denying a GE could be very bad indeed. Boris will just say "Let the people decide etc".
If legislation blocking No Deal is put on statute book pre GE and Boris then wins a majority, Lords could block immediate repeal of that legislation. But would they? It would look horrendous - Boris would just have won a GE, he would have as clear a mandate as possible - would be very dangerous for Lords to try to over-ride that.
So whilst Boris looks cornered with no way out, I just wonder.
Could the legilsation get put on the statue book (so its there and legal) but no one writes the latter until after the election - so we sort out who writes the letter and indeed whether the letter ever gets written - after the election?
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Anyone threatening violence or worse from either side is losing the plot
Lets have a GE and give the nation a voice in who they want to govern us and start with a fresh looking HOC, as there are too many entrenched and out of touch mps at present
I would expect Boris to lead the biggest party but a coalition of the rest could well see a referendum and as I have said before in 2020, which is the earliest a referendum could be held, the result due to the changed democracy and the youth vote should seee a good majority to remain
In my opinion that is now the most likely outcome and that should calm public anger, hopefully
Not a chance. You are deluded if you think reversing the referendum decision without it being enacted will 'calm things down'. You will break democracy in this country.
I am not deluded and it is only an opinion. You seem to overlook that a new HOC post 14th October could look very different and coming off a GE where all the opposition parties supported a referendum, they would be entitled to arrange a referendum if they could command a majority
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
I can certainly imagine one of the first targets for ire will be cars getting trashed with the EU blue background and stars on their car number plates.
(And before anybody gets outraged that I am inciting violence, of course I'm not. Just recognising that some easily-roused idiots have an easy target all around them.
If I really wanted to map out violence - for a plot-line in a novel, for example - I reckon the most memorable terrorist outrage yet on UK soil could be done with two guys on pizza delivery bikes and £100....not that I am ever going to share it, for obvious reasons. It's THAT easy....)
Anyone threatening violence or worse from either side is losing the plot
Lets have a GE and give the nation a voice in who they want to govern us and start with a fresh looking HOC, as there are too many entrenched and out of touch mps at present
I would expect Boris to lead the biggest party but a coalition of the rest could well see a referendum and as I have said before in 2020, which is the earliest a referendum could be held, the result due to the changed democracy and the youth vote should seee a good majority to remain
In my opinion that is now the most likely outcome and that should calm public anger, hopefully
Of course, violence from must side must be condemned unreservedly and those perpetrating such violence need to be brought to account and dealt with as prescribed by the law of the land.
Churchill (who most Conservatives seem to admire even though he was a Liberal Unionist) argued MPs were representatives not delegates. The belief among so many that MPs were somehow mandated by the result of the 23/6/16 referendum is from where all the trouble has sprung - a referendum mandates no one in our system.
We get to choose our MP but once that's done we are in their hands. Even if I passionately supported the restoration of the death penalty for the killing of Police officers or members of the Armed Forces (which I guess many would), if my MP chose not to back such a measure, there's little I can do until the next election.
Churchill argued an MP's primary desire was to use their fair and impartial judgement to decide what was best for the honour and safety of the United Kingdom. There may well be MPs who, while supportive of leaving the EU, do not believe a No Deal crash out will be to the honour and safety of the UK and some who don't believe leaving at all meets those criteria.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
Most Brexit voters identify as English above British. Let’s stay in the bigger union, because the smaller one has had its day. 🏴🇪🇺
As I said prethread, the irony here is that if Brexit is cancelled, and we stay in the EU, Scotland will never vote INDY. Because this time around the Scots would know, very painfully, that a Yes vote would mean instant ejection from the EU, with added national bankruptcy. It would be Brexit times 20. Not an easy sell.
Too much sun right enough, we just rejoin EU tout suite, they would be chuckling in Brussels as they stuffed it to "Les Rosbifs"
Byronic, HYUFD and one or two others are full of hyperbole today.
Yep there's some anger around on both sides. But it's not just about Brexit. And, frankly, the most dominant feeling towards it tedium. People are fed up with it and wish it to go away. If there is a General Election then despite the Johnson-Cummings best efforts, Brexit won't be the only story or even the most important one. In poll after poll up until Cameron's unnecessary diversion, 'Europe' never featured in the top ten of issues that interested or vexed people.
This is the first reason why Corbyn's Labour will do much better than some on here think.
The second reason is a fundamental principle. Perhaps THE fundamental principle. The tories are ripping themselves apart before our eyes, right into Downing St itself. Far from unifying the party around a single cause as HYUFD would have you believe in his evangelical zeal, the fanaticism is causing a schism of epic blue-on-blue proportions, pumped by the 'threat' from Farage's Brexit Party. You think it's bad now? It will be one hundred times worse during an election campaign.
Quite simply, parties that aren't united don't win elections. And the tories are self-immolating before our eyes.
On the face of it, Boris is in trouble - he doesn't control the Commons and he's in a far weaker position in Lords.
But surely Corbyn has to be very careful - optics of denying a GE could be very bad indeed. Boris will just say "Let the people decide etc".
If legislation blocking No Deal is put on statute book pre GE and Boris then wins a majority, Lords could block immediate repeal of that legislation. But would they? It would look horrendous - Boris would just have won a GE, he would have as clear a mandate as possible - would be very dangerous for Lords to try to over-ride that.
So whilst Boris looks cornered with no way out, I just wonder.
Yes, I'm sure if Boris wins a substantial majority running on No Deal then he can get the resulting parliament to let him do it. But he doesn't want to run on No Deal because a supermajority of voters think it's nuts. He wants to run on The EU Will Totally Bend To My Iron Will And There Will Be A Deal.
I don't think he'll run on No Deal.
He'll run on keeping No Deal on the table.
ie He'll say he'll negotiate with the EU post GE - but if negotiations fail he'll repeal the Act of Parliament so we can exit with No Deal.
Yes still chasing unicorns. It is not even slightly plausible that we can agree and sign a deal in 2 weeks after an election so for his strategy to work he actually needs the extension so he has a couple of months to negotiate with a parliamentary mandate and a month to pass the legislation.
This is why he is being so reckless, he requires an election and extension, but cannot be seen to support either, so has to provoke the remain alliance into action now and not in October. Somehow people are falling for it, despite it looking fairly obvious.
That’s disingenuous. There is a duty to be open with the court and not to mislead (whether by omission or otherwise). Not making full disclosure to a court is very naughty indeed.
But it may not be sufficient to justify a ruling against the government.
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Whereas the Remainers who constantly used the threat of renewed violence in Ireland, in case of Brexit, are.... what?
Christ. Your hypocrisy is unending.
I hope s/he is very young. In that context you can put their silly posts down to naivety. If they are an adult then it’s all just a bit sad (the same applies to some of the ardent leave posters on here).
What on earth are you on about?
I live in a Northern Leave constituency. I have many Leave voting friends. No-one would give two sh*ts if I carried an EU flag down the street.
There was a stop the coup protest in Newcastle City Centre on Saturday at the same time as 52,000 football fans were in the City Centre. No violence.
Greetings, popping by to see if everything is sorted yet?
Football fans are a more tolerant bunch than historically. Leicesters home match on Saturday coincided with Leicester Pride. A fair few fans walked up to Vicky Park to enjoy the party afterwards.
Leicester City were giving out Leicester Pride T shirts with the club logo at half time. A few seats in front of me at the match was a headscarfed woman with her daughters, all wearing the T shirts. No trouble at all. Not sure it would have been the same a couple of decades back. The times they are a changing!
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
That depends on the demographics of where you live. There are certainly places where flying a Union Jack would cause more raised eyebrows than flying an EU flag. (I live in one such.)
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
Given people get upset about this, perhaps it is time that we should be able to get a standard passport for £x or customised passports emphasising their particular identities such as European, UK, British, English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Cornish etc and in whatever particular colour they choose for £x + y. The scannable page is the key one, not the cover. Nice little earner for the home office.
Partly a function of the atomisation of society. Everyone now wants their own identity and it's tradeable.
God knows how you build a stable polity of the back of that in the longer term.
The violence throb-on some of you have is unsettling. There will be no violent insurrection. We know how the British public responds to violence, be it on the Left or the Right.
Anyone threatening violence or worse from either side is losing the plot
Lets have a GE and give the nation a voice in who they want to govern us and start with a fresh looking HOC, as there are too many entrenched and out of touch mps at present
I would expect Boris to lead the biggest party but a coalition of the rest could well see a referendum and as I have said before in 2020, which is the earliest a referendum could be held, the result due to the changed democracy and the youth vote should seee a good majority to remain
In my opinion that is now the most likely outcome and that should calm public anger, hopefully
Not a chance. You are deluded if you think reversing the referendum decision without it being enacted will 'calm things down'. You will break democracy in this country.
I am not deluded and it is only an opinion. You seem to overlook that a new HOC post 14th October could look very different and coming off a GE where all the opposition parties supported a referendum, they would be entitled to arrange a referendum if they could command a majority
They would of course be entitled to do what they want as they are today. They would also be entitled to suffer the consequences if such a stupid decision.
It used to be the case that if a government decided to resign you automatically got a general election. I'm still not sure what happens now if the government decides to call time on itself.
It’s the weirdest bit of the FTPA. If Boris resigns but declines to advise on any successor, what happens? All the conventions that came in pre-FTPA were designed to keep the sovereign out of it.
Surely the Queen would be advised (By Mogg !) to call for Corbyn ?
I'm no fan of his but he has a constitutional right - by convention - to try and form a Gov't I think. He is the Leader of the Opposition.
He'd happily sign the letter to become PM - then follows either a Corbyn Gov't unable to get through any sort of legislation (Till 2022 !) whatsoever or a General Election.
This is the only route out for Johnson potentially given he has said point blank he won't sign the letter.
That is correct. It last happened in December 1905 when Arthur Balfour's Unionist Government resigned - despite having a majority of circa 100 - and the Leader of the Opposition - Sir Henry Campbell - Bannerman was invited to become PM. He took office and called an election for January 1906 which resulted in a Liberal landslide.
This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted: 4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over again
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
I can certainly imagine one of the first targets for ire will be cars getting trashed with the EU blue background and stars on their car number plates.
(And before anybody gets outraged that I am inciting violence, of course I'm not. Just recognising that some easily-roused idiots have an easy target all around them.
If I really wanted to map out violence - for a plot-line in a novel, for example - I reckon the most memorable terrorist outrage yet on UK soil could be done with two guys on pizza delivery bikes and £100....not that I am ever going to share it, for obvious reasons. It's THAT easy....)
Is it a myth that dachshunds were stoned in the streets for being German at the outbreak of one/both of the WWs?
It is true that Barbara Saxa-Coburg Gotha had to change her name to appear in the Carry On films.
Comments
The figures mean nothing if you don’t understand the local areas.
I'm no fan of his but he has a constitutional right - by convention - to try and form a Gov't I think. He is the Leader of the Opposition.
He'd happily sign the letter to become PM - then follows either a Corbyn Gov't unable to get through any sort of legislation (Till 2022 !) whatsoever or a General Election.
This is the only route out for Johnson potentially given he has said point blank he won't sign the letter.
If the election is on the 14th October that is only 6 weeks away and in that campaign Brexit with dominate and expect Farage to launch a full scale attack on labours brexit. Corbyn is now known and his shouty revolution style campaigning is so yesterday
I expect success for the SNP and lib dems, with the conservatives losing seats to both but gaining labour held seats in England and Wales, while labour is eliminated in Scotland and under huge pressure in London and the South
To be rid of May would be the cherry on the cake!
But, my dear, think about the shoes you could buy with the money saved from not buying an overpriced cup of Ovaltine.
I am about to have some dark, very dark (70% cocoa) chocolate with my post-lunch coffee. I am not a complete monster you know.....
Oh.....
EDIT: Thinking about it, t'was probably cuz sausages were rationed.....
He'll run on keeping No Deal on the table.
ie He'll say he'll negotiate with the EU post GE - but if negotiations fail he'll repeal the Act of Parliament so we can exit with No Deal.
NEW THREAD
Churchill (who most Conservatives seem to admire even though he was a Liberal Unionist) argued MPs were representatives not delegates. The belief among so many that MPs were somehow mandated by the result of the 23/6/16 referendum is from where all the trouble has sprung - a referendum mandates no one in our system.
We get to choose our MP but once that's done we are in their hands. Even if I passionately supported the restoration of the death penalty for the killing of Police officers or members of the Armed Forces (which I guess many would), if my MP chose not to back such a measure, there's little I can do until the next election.
Churchill argued an MP's primary desire was to use their fair and impartial judgement to decide what was best for the honour and safety of the United Kingdom. There may well be MPs who, while supportive of leaving the EU, do not believe a No Deal crash out will be to the honour and safety of the UK and some who don't believe leaving at all meets those criteria.
Thank you for reinforcing my point elsewhere in the thread about the mental processing powers of [some] leavers.
If only the well-heeled areas.
This is why he is being so reckless, he requires an election and extension, but cannot be seen to support either, so has to provoke the remain alliance into action now and not in October. Somehow people are falling for it, despite it looking fairly obvious.
But it may not be sufficient to justify a ruling against the government.
Football fans are a more tolerant bunch than historically. Leicesters home match on Saturday coincided with Leicester Pride. A fair few fans walked up to Vicky Park to enjoy the party afterwards.
Leicester City were giving out Leicester Pride T shirts with the club logo at half time. A few seats in front of me at the match was a headscarfed woman with her daughters, all wearing the T shirts. No trouble at all. Not sure it would have been the same a couple of decades back. The times they are a changing!
God knows how you build a stable polity of the back of that in the longer term.