Anyone still claiming there’s a master strategy? It all looks like Frank Spencer rollerskating tonight.
There’s clearly a strategy. Get MPs so desperate they eventually agree to a new deal, offered by a spooked EU. Whether it works is moot.
What you’re seeing is tactics. Which vary from day to day, like skirmishes in a larger war.
From here, any conceivable deal is a defeat for Johnson. No Deal is his only option.
Agreed. He and Cummings would have gamed what would be the easiest to spin. Boris as the No Dealer with a heavy heart fits the bill. 'I wanted a deal, I really did, but because the people have spoken/Theresa was crap/the EU are nasty/parliament is uncooperative then No Deal it has to be. Let's make it work!'
If Boris wins a majority before 31st October ironically he can then finally pass the Withdrawal Agreement with some promise about a technical solution for the Irish border from the EU
What is your assumption about BXP in any election before 31 October? Do you think an agreement with the Tories will be reached, which Boris then would renege on if he passes a deal, or do you think BXP stand in some places but not enough to harm the Tories, or they stand all over the place but still not well enough to stop BoJo?
There will be no pact with the Brexit Party as that requires abandoning the Withdrawal Agreement completely, Boris still wants to pass the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop and will campaign on that basis with No Deal a last resort to ensure Brexit on October 31st
Yes, but what do you think BXP will do in response to that, and what level of effect (or not) do you think their actions will have?
Little, they are polling no better than UKIP 2015 when the Tories won a majority now, after May extended they were polling up to 25%
Whatever happens it'll be the end of the monarchy.
Is Boris Johnson prepared to put the Queen through that?
Refusing Royal Consent didn't finish Queen Anne in 1708 or William III before that (or George III on the US declaration of independence or HMQEII herself on that New South Wales Privy Council thing in 1979)
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
From anti Brexit ConsEurope but even it gives the Tories more than Labour plus SNP plus Plaid plus Greens combined with LDs or DUP holding the balance of power
The campaign and , therefore, equal time has not even started. Give a little bit of time.
Boris can match any spending promises Corbyn cares to make, and with greater flair too. He also has the advantage of not being a clapped-out, anti-British leftist.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
The Queen has no reason to listen to him and will be setting a hugely controversial precedent if she does. Why on earth should she?
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
I wasn't saying he did have the power to advise the monarch not to give royal assent (the "it"). I was suggesting he would still try to do it even if he has no power to do it and no precedent to say that he can, and would grasp for a defence of his actions by blaming the Speaker for abandoning precedent first.
I don't think there is anything Boris would not attempt in order to prove himself committed to Brexit no matter the cost or the rules - he knows he has to convince the Farage fans to listen to him, not Farage, in a GE.
I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
I think most people, what ever their background, have an inate sense of right and wrong when it comes to individual rights and beliefs. The idea that a campaign vilifying a vulnerable minority would gain traction amongst people just because they are 'Northern' or working class is offensive and wrong.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
The Queen has no reason to listen to him and will be setting a hugely controversial precedent if she does. Why on earth should she?
Ah yes. Let’s all have YET ANOTHER Remainery laugh at poor old racist Britain. What a stupid country Britain is, imagining that Brexit talks are ‘intensifying’ in Brussels. Jesus Christ Britain is crap and shit, how could they think that, the deluded British chavs. Isn’t Brussels clever.
Oh wait. Here’s an Irish MEP talking to Irish media, saying Brexit talks are.... intensifying.
“In an interview with RTÉ Radio’s Sean O’Rourke programme, McGuinness confirmed talks were intensifying in Brussels but she said they should not be mischaracterised as a renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement.”
The brexit maniacs are behaving as I would expect tonight on ch4 news they no longer offer any benefits of leave just the mantra that the vote must be respected. I’m sorry but they are all c****
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
The Queen has no reason to listen to him and will be setting a hugely controversial precedent if she does. Why on earth should she?
Refuse to refuse royal assent, quite amusing.
As far as I can see, he has no more role in the giving of royal assent than I have.
A song I've written anyway, to be released on the day (should it ever come) that this whole project collapses under the weight of its contradictions.
Channeling Don Mclean -
A long long time ago I can still remember how the Brexit used to make me smile And I knew if it had its chance that it would make our people dance and we’d be very happy for a while But parliament would always dither, instead of trying to deliver Bad news on our doorstep, we couldn’t take one more step I’m not ashamed to say I cried when I read that even Boris lied And now it seems our hands are tied The day the Brexit died
So bye bye, it was not Do or Die Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, singing all the liberal traitors must die
I met a friend who voted Leave and asked her if she still believed, but she just shrugged and turned away I went on down to the Poundland store, where I’d heard the rumblings weeks before, and a man there said the bastards had to pay In Weatherspoons the punters screamed, they hurled abuse and no longer dreamed Of chains of Europe broken, those words they all were token And the man they trusted like a priest – thought Nigel would surely fight at least He’d caught the last plane for Belize The day that Brexit died
And so we’re singing …
Bye bye, it was not Do or Die Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, saying all the liberal traitors must die Saying ALL the liberal traitors must die!
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
I don’t really understand why anyone thinks the Prime Minister even has a role in this process, never mind a veto.
*Puts on nerdiest glasses, licks finger and puts it in the air*
1708 Scottish Militia Bill. Passed both houses but the French were then sighted sailing to Scotland so Queen Anne decided not to trust the Scots with guns.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
The Queen has no reason to listen to him and will be setting a hugely controversial precedent if she does. Why on earth should she?
Refuse to refuse royal assent, quite amusing.
As far as I can see, he has no more role in the giving of royal assent than I have.
Not arguing with you, I have no expertise to do so, I just think he will say he does and will try to do so. If HYUFD is defending it, you can bet Boris is thinking it.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
I don’t really understand why anyone thinks the Prime Minister even has a role in this process, never mind a veto.
*Puts on nerdiest glasses, licks finger and puts it in the air*
1708 Scottish Militia Bill. Passed both houses but the French were then sighted sailing to Scotland so Queen Anne decided not to trust the Scots with guns.
From anti Brexit ConsEurope but even it gives the Tories more than Labour plus SNP plus Plaid plus Greens combined with LDs or DUP holding the balance of power
The campaign and , therefore, equal time has not even started. Give a little bit of time.
Boris can match any spending promises Corbyn cares to make, and with greater flair too. He also has the advantage of not being a clapped-out, anti-British leftist.
So advantage Boris.
So being a man of no morals, a history of lying and god knows what is now rejecting the sensible Tory approach of good management is right to run the country
Anyone still claiming there’s a master strategy? It all looks like Frank Spencer rollerskating tonight.
There’s clearly a strategy. Get MPs so desperate they eventually agree to a new deal, offered by a spooked EU. Whether it works is moot.
What you’re seeing is tactics. Which vary from day to day, like skirmishes in a larger war.
From here, any conceivable deal is a defeat for Johnson. No Deal is his only option.
Agreed. He and Cummings would have gamed what would be the easiest to spin. Boris as the No Dealer with a heavy heart fits the bill. 'I wanted a deal, I really did, but because the people have spoken/Theresa was crap/the EU are nasty/parliament is uncooperative then No Deal it has to be. Let's make it work!'
If Boris wins a majority before 31st October ironically he can then finally pass the Withdrawal Agreement with some promise about a technical solution for the Irish border from the EU
What is your assumption about BXP in any election before 31 October? Do you think an agreement with the Tories will be reached, which Boris then would renege on if he passes a deal, or do you think BXP stand in some places but not enough to harm the Tories, or they stand all over the place but still not well enough to stop BoJo?
There will be no pact with the Brexit Party as that requires abandoning the Withdrawal Agreement completely, Boris still wants to pass the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop and will campaign on that basis with No Deal a last resort to ensure Brexit on October 31st
Yes, but what do you think BXP will do in response to that, and what level of effect (or not) do you think their actions will have?
Little, they are polling no better than UKIP 2015 when the Tories won a majority now, after May extended they were polling up to 25%
But Lib Dems are a lot stronger. And SW England is no longer safe. Indeed the Home Counties heartland may be vulnerable too ! Labour majorities in the North are far too high in most places.
A song I've written anyway, to be released on the day (should it ever come) that this whole project collapses under the weight of its contradictions.
Channeling Don Mclean -
A long long time ago I can still remember how the Brexit used to make me smile And I knew if it had its chance that it would make our people dance and we’d be very happy for a while But parliament would always dither, instead of trying to deliver Bad news on our doorstep, we couldn’t take one more step I’m not ashamed to say I cried when I read that even Boris lied And now it seems our hands are tied The day the Brexit died
So bye bye, it was not Do or Die Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, singing all the liberal traitors must die
I met a friend who voted Leave and asked her if she still believed, but she just shrugged and turned away I went on down to the Poundland store, where I’d heard the rumblings weeks before, and a man there said the bastards had to pay In Weatherspoons the punters screamed, they hurled abuse and no longer dreamed Of chains of Europe broken, those words they all were token And the man they trusted like a priest – thought Nigel would surely fight at least He’d caught the last plane for Belize The day that Brexit died
And so we’re singing …
Bye bye, it was not Do or Die Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, saying all the liberal traitors must die Saying ALL the liberal traitors must die!
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
Wow. What next - Boris unilaterally overturns any law he likes, Boris removes voting rights of MPs, Boris removes the requirement to dissolve parliament, Boris unilaterally overturns any judicial decision, Boris abolishes habeas corpus, Boris declares himself King of Uganda?
I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
I think most people, what ever their background, have an inate sense of right and wrong when it comes to individual rights and beliefs. The idea that a campaign vilifying a vulnerable minority would gain traction amongst people just because they are 'Northern' or working class is offensive and wrong.
That's an interesting comment given the leave campaign's concentration on Turkey (and by extension Turks) before the referendum.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
The Queen has no reason to listen to him and will be setting a hugely controversial precedent if she does. Why on earth should she?
Refuse to refuse royal assent, quite amusing.
As far as I can see, he has no more role in the giving of royal assent than I have.
One would hope that all of us, irrespective of our views on Brexit, would agree that a PM even trying to get the Queen to withhold ascent would be utterly, utterly in the wrong and should be removed immediately. I’m on balance mostly ok with the prorogation because there is still time for Parliament to do something about it; but seeking to ignore a Bill passing through both Houses? Yuck.
I presume the election business is because they can’t stomach it themselves.
Anyone still claiming there’s a master strategy? It all looks like Frank Spencer rollerskating tonight.
There’s clearly a strategy. Get MPs so desperate they eventually agree to a new deal, offered by a spooked EU. Whether it works is moot.
What you’re seeing is tactics. Which vary from day to day, like skirmishes in a larger war.
From here, any conceivable deal is a defeat for Johnson. No Deal is his only option.
Agreed. He and Cummings would have gamed what would be the easiest to spin. Boris as the No Dealer with a heavy heart fits the bill. 'I wanted a deal, I really did, but because the people have spoken/Theresa was crap/the EU are nasty/parliament is uncooperative then No Deal it has to be. Let's make it work!'
If Boris wins a majority before 31st October ironically he can then finally pass the Withdrawal Agreement with some promise about a technical solution for the Irish border from the EU
What is your assumption about BXP in any election before 31 October? Do you think an agreement with the Tories will be reached, which Boris then would renege on if he passes a deal, or do you think BXP stand in some places but not enough to harm the Tories, or they stand all over the place but still not well enough to stop BoJo?
There will be no pact with the Brexit Party as that requires abandoning the Withdrawal Agreement completely, Boris still wants to pass the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop and will campaign on that basis with No Deal a last resort to ensure Brexit on October 31st
Yes, but what do you think BXP will do in response to that, and what level of effect (or not) do you think their actions will have?
Little, they are polling no better than UKIP 2015 when the Tories won a majority now, after May extended they were polling up to 25%
But Lib Dems are a lot stronger. And SW England is no longer safe. Indeed the Home Counties heartland may be vulnerable too ! Labour majorities in the North are far too high in most places.
I see that what I wrote at 5:44 pm on the previous thread - "Anyway the important thing now is to work out which of Mrs May’s speeches Boris is going to be copying at 6 pm." - turned out to be prescient.
From anti Brexit ConsEurope but even it gives the Tories more than Labour plus SNP plus Plaid plus Greens combined with LDs or DUP holding the balance of power
The campaign and , therefore, equal time has not even started. Give a little bit of time.
Boris can match any spending promises Corbyn cares to make, and with greater flair too. He also has the advantage of not being a clapped-out, anti-British leftist.
So advantage Boris.
So being a man of no morals, a history of lying and god knows what is now rejecting the sensible Tory approach of good management is right to run the country
If that approach could win the next election, I'd be all for it. But it can't, and the alternative is Corbyn.
I see that what I wrote at 5:44 pm on the previous thread - "Anyway the important thing now is to work out which of Mrs May’s speeches Boris is going to be copying at 6 pm." - turned out to be prescient.
If only I could have similar luck at Ascot......
The observation (made here by someone IIRC) that Boris is simply re-running the May government in fast forward continues to be on point.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
I don’t really understand why anyone thinks the Prime Minister even has a role in this process, never mind a veto.
*Puts on nerdiest glasses, licks finger and puts it in the air*
1708 Scottish Militia Bill. Passed both houses but the French were then sighted sailing to Scotland so Queen Anne decided not to trust the Scots with guns.
Yep, the hard Brexiteers could have passed May's Deal and had Brexit months ago. Now it's double or nothing, with the country's whole future on the line.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
So Boris might well do it and defend it with a whinge that Bercow started this?
What is the “it” that he has the power to do? He is not the Queen and there is no precedent saying that the Prime Minister can counsel the Queen not to give Royal Assent.
Thst does not mean he cannot do it and he will with 17 million voters behind him to respect the Leave vote
Wow. What next - Boris unilaterally overturns any law he likes, Boris removes voting rights of MPs, Boris removes the requirement to dissolve parliament, Boris unilaterally overturns any judicial decision, Boris abolishes habeas corpus, Boris declares himself King of Uganda?
From anti Brexit ConsEurope but even it gives the Tories more than Labour plus SNP plus Plaid plus Greens combined with LDs or DUP holding the balance of power
The campaign and , therefore, equal time has not even started. Give a little bit of time.
Boris can match any spending promises Corbyn cares to make, and with greater flair too. He also has the advantage of not being a clapped-out, anti-British leftist.
So advantage Boris.
So being a man of no morals, a history of lying and god knows what is now rejecting the sensible Tory approach of good management is right to run the country
If that approach could win the next election, I'd be all for it. But it can't, and the alternative is Corbyn.
Needs must when the devil drives.
The problem is that the more you and the Tories drive to the extreme the more corbyn becomes acceptable. You need to look a little below the line on here to see that corbyn is slowly begging to be a better alternative to Johnson (please stop calling him boris unless you use second names in all posts)
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
I don’t really understand why anyone thinks the Prime Minister even has a role in this process, never mind a veto.
*Puts on nerdiest glasses, licks finger and puts it in the air*
1708 Scottish Militia Bill. Passed both houses but the French were then sighted sailing to Scotland so Queen Anne decided not to trust the Scots with guns.
There was no Prime Minister then.
Boh. Out-nerded. *Tips nerdiest hat*
Pretty much common knowledge that the Stuarts did not have PMs. Or I’m overestimating common knowledge?
Alexander Johnson has a simple dilemma. If he wants to neuter the BXP, he can only offer "Clean Break" Brexit Otherwise, the BXP will get between 10-15% of the votes and he cannot get any of the Northern Labour seats. If he does offer a "Clean Break" Brexit, there isn't a appetite in the nation for such a strategy. People will not elect a government to do a No Deal Brexit.
I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
I think most people, what ever their background, have an inate sense of right and wrong when it comes to individual rights and beliefs. The idea that a campaign vilifying a vulnerable minority would gain traction amongst people just because they are 'Northern' or working class is offensive and wrong.
That's an interesting comment given the leave campaign's concentration on Turkey (and by extension Turks) before the referendum.
Or are they the 'wrong' minority?
And that is yet another stupid fucking comment from you given I attacked that campaign at the time. Crawl back under your rock.
A song I've written anyway, to be released on the day (should it ever come) that this whole project collapses under the weight of its contradictions.
Channeling Don Mclean -
A long long time ago I can still remember how the Brexit used to make me smile And I knew if it had its chance that it would make our people dance and we’d be very happy for a while But parliament would always dither, instead of trying to deliver Bad news on our doorstep, we couldn’t take one more step I’m not ashamed to say I cried when I read that even Boris lied And now it seems our hands are tied The day the Brexit died
So bye bye, it was not Do or Die Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, singing all the liberal traitors must die
I met a friend who voted Leave and asked her if she still believed, but she just shrugged and turned away I went on down to the Poundland store, where I’d heard the rumblings weeks before, and a man there said the bastards had to pay In Weatherspoons the punters screamed, they hurled abuse and no longer dreamed Of chains of Europe broken, those words they all were token And the man they trusted like a priest – thought Nigel would surely fight at least He’d caught the last plane for Belize The day that Brexit died
And so we’re singing …
Bye bye, it was not Do or Die Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, saying all the liberal traitors must die Saying ALL the liberal traitors must die!
From anti Brexit ConsEurope but even it gives the Tories more than Labour plus SNP plus Plaid plus Greens combined with LDs or DUP holding the balance of power
The campaign and , therefore, equal time has not even started. Give a little bit of time.
Boris can match any spending promises Corbyn cares to make, and with greater flair too. He also has the advantage of not being a clapped-out, anti-British leftist.
So advantage Boris.
So being a man of no morals, a history of lying and god knows what is now rejecting the sensible Tory approach of good management is right to run the country
If that approach could win the next election, I'd be all for it. But it can't, and the alternative is Corbyn.
Needs must when the devil drives.
The problem is that the more you and the Tories drive to the extreme the more corbyn becomes acceptable. You need to look a little below the line on here to see that corbyn is slowly begging to be a better alternative to Johnson (please stop calling him boris unless you use second names in all posts)
Corbyn will become PM by default, regardless of how "acceptable" he is, unless we can gain more seats fast - it's that simple. I think I can get away with calling the PM Boris since I've met him and we have certain points of background in common.
This is Parliament vs the People now and Boris represents the people.
If 21 Tory MPs vote to extend and Boris expels all 21 MPs from the Party then anything Farage says is going to look pale in comparison. When you have the left screaming "stop the coup" as we enter an election, when you have Hammond, Clarke, Gauke etc thrown out of the party as well an election to prevent an extension . . . Farage standing against Boris is going to look silly.
Boris can go into this continuing his current line - we will work to get a deal agreed on 17 Oct and exit do or die on 31 Oct. Farage may complain he doesn't want a deal, but when Boris is literally expelling Remainers from his party he's not going to look weak on Brexit.
Boris may lose the votes of people like Mr Nabavi, TSE, Big G etc - which is a massive shame if so and I hope not - but the only people Farage will attract are people who would never vote Tory anyway.
Alexander Johnson has a simple dilemma. If he wants to neuter the BXP, he can only offer "Clean Break" Brexit Otherwise, the BXP will get between 10-15% of the votes and he cannot get any of the Northern Labour seats. If he does offer a "Clean Break" Brexit, there isn't a appetite in the nation for such a strategy. People will not elect a government to do a No Deal Brexit.
If BXP voters do that, then Brexit is dead, and they can enjoy the fruits of a Corbyn / SNP / LD coalition, secure in the knowledge that no major party will ever pander to them again. Their choice.
ultimately what hurts UK from No Deal is not just the indelible impact on our farming and other industry and business in such a fast forward to global Britain , but the political crisis in Britain extending into the longer term, because we wouldn’t be able to get EU to table and compromise without ourselves climbing down and sucking up exactly what they are currently asking from us. No deal is certainly not the end of it. It is not closure. No deal isn’t actually an answer to anything, it’s a billboard to the world of our failure to achieve that answer. A symbol of failure etched forever into British history.
Very eloquent. And largely true.
You ignore one thing though. If we annul the referendum vote with revoke, or a 2nd referendum, that’s a big fat signal to the world that British democracy is over.
At what point did I say revoke, ignore 2016 result, or call for ref on chance reverse 2016? The argument is leavers should be against no deal, as defeat and lack of closure no deal represents. of course there are other options.
The bottom line here is we turn to no deal not to pressure the EU, but to put off the inevitable compromise we need to make in order to strike a post brexit deal with the EU.
Remainer May had years to come up with something she could only try to get passed by keeping people in dark, every bounce in the book, May and her remainer team had years, the clock barely started on PM Boris and his leaver government negotiation. Yes the vote was 2016 but its important to Brexit in the right way, to embed Brexit change, ensure longtivity of Brexit, unnecessarily rush it now, such as No Deal clearly not the preferred deal because of problems it will bring.
to get it right is better than a bad start that discredits the whole venture. Its clear the deadline is not For Boris, gives Boris too little time to explore the necessary changes, negotiate properly, ithat dates an invention of the EU, designed to frustrate Brexit. Its actually EU tactic using No Deal to pressure May’s replacement with no proper time for negotiation hence Markel saying unfeasible s 30 days.
If I were Boris I would say, give me till end of March to properly negotiate and pass the right deal
leaving in a way that discredits the venture is actually betrayal of every leave vote. That’s the truth of this situation. Is there no leaver in the country refusing to see how remainer May wasted time so not prepared to back Boris till 31st March to put it right?
The bottom line here is brexiteers turn to no deal not to pressure the EU, but out of cowardice, to postpone the inevitable compromise we need to make in order to strike a post brexit deal with the EU. How many times has HY told as as much “need to brexit October 31st or all Leave Tories and voters go to Farage.” See, the no deal is driven by fear.
I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.
I don’t really understand why anyone thinks the Prime Minister even has a role in this process, never mind a veto.
However, it also says that the government is not entitled to give such advice if it has lost the confidence of parliament. So probably a VONC could prevent Johnson from depriving a bill of royal assent.
Honestly, I don't see why Labour would vote for an election, but it would literally be an act of treachery from Con MPs to vote for Jez to become PM. Additionally waiting for 14 days will hurt the remainers more than it will Boris.
Boris has put everyone in a very tough spot and we're less than two months away from no deal.
Weapons-grade bantz available for the second one: a PM whipping no confidence in HMG to get an election it 'doesnt want' and LOTO whipping confidence in HMG to avoid an election it 'does want' and minor parties torn between confidence (to forcibly extend A50 and their own employment) and no confidence (to get a GONU they may or may not want but an extension the do).
Interesting. I wonder what gives him that confidence. Maybe half the PLP will defy Corbyn and abstain. Thirty deselected Tories might do likewiseChange UK plus various independents might add a further twenty five. How would the LibDems vote?If Plaid and the SNP decided to abstain , the numbers might be there to block Johnson - but the SNP sound keen to have an election.
This is Parliament vs the People now and Boris represents the people.
If 21 Tory MPs vote to extend and Boris expels all 21 MPs from the Party then anything Farage says is going to look pale in comparison. When you have the left screaming "stop the coup" as we enter an election, when you have Hammond, Clarke, Gauke etc thrown out of the party as well an election to prevent an extension . . . Farage standing against Boris is going to look silly.
Boris can go into this continuing his current line - we will work to get a deal agreed on 17 Oct and exit do or die on 31 Oct. Farage may complain he doesn't want a deal, but when Boris is literally expelling Remainers from his party he's not going to look weak on Brexit.
Boris may lose the votes of people like Mr Nabavi, TSE, Big G etc - which is a massive shame if so and I hope not - but the only people Farage will attract are people who would never vote Tory anyway.
He doesn’t represent the people he represents his own narrow financial backers that will help to keep him in power is ho he represents. He is Johnson not boris
Interesting. I wonder what gives him that confidence. Maybe half the PLP will defy Corbyn and abstain. Thirty deselected Tories might do likewiseChange UK plus various independents might add a further twenty five. How would the LibDems vote?If Plaid and the SNP decided to abstain , the numbers might be there to block Johnson - but the SNP sound keen to have an election.
If Corbyn can’t whip his own MPs to back an election he has been saying he wants for months that will not put him in the greatest of positions, frankly.
Honestly, I don't see why Labour would vote for an election, but it would literally be an act of treachery from Con MPs to vote for Jez to become PM. Additionally waiting for 14 days will hurt the remainers more than it will Boris.
Boris has put everyone in a very tough spot and we're less than two months away from no deal.
Alexander Johnson has a simple dilemma. If he wants to neuter the BXP, he can only offer "Clean Break" Brexit Otherwise, the BXP will get between 10-15% of the votes and he cannot get any of the Northern Labour seats. If he does offer a "Clean Break" Brexit, there isn't a appetite in the nation for such a strategy. People will not elect a government to do a No Deal Brexit.
If BXP voters do that, then Brexit is dead, and they can enjoy the fruits of a Corbyn / SNP / LD coalition, secure in the knowledge that no major party will ever pander to them again. Their choice.
Yes, but some percentage of BXP voters do not trust Boris and would oppose him even if it costs them Brexit. That's why it is funny.
What makes you sure Labour MPs who are mostly Remainers, would oblige.
We keep on being assured that Remain is in a clear majority now. If so, Remainer parties should win easily and be able to put Brexit to the sword in any General Election.
An election is coming one way or another this year. Most MPs want to survive.
I think Corbyn will want an election and most Labour MPs will follow their leader.
In an election, the best way to ensure that you are there in the next Parliament is to be loyal to your party.
Comments
So advantage Boris.
I don't think there is anything Boris would not attempt in order to prove himself committed to Brexit no matter the cost or the rules - he knows he has to convince the Farage fans to listen to him, not Farage, in a GE.
Oh wait. Here’s an Irish MEP talking to Irish media, saying Brexit talks are.... intensifying.
“In an interview with RTÉ Radio’s Sean O’Rourke programme, McGuinness confirmed talks were intensifying in Brussels but she said they should not be mischaracterised as a renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/brexit-new-deal-uk-eu-boris-johnson
You people are scum. Get out of the country you hate so much
Channeling Don Mclean -
A long long time ago I can still remember how the Brexit used to make me smile
And I knew if it had its chance that it would make our people dance and we’d be very happy for a while
But parliament would always dither, instead of trying to deliver
Bad news on our doorstep, we couldn’t take one more step
I’m not ashamed to say I cried when I read that even Boris lied
And now it seems our hands are tied
The day the Brexit died
So bye bye, it was not Do or Die
Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye
Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, singing all the liberal traitors must die
I met a friend who voted Leave and asked her if she still believed, but she just shrugged and turned away
I went on down to the Poundland store, where I’d heard the rumblings weeks before, and a man there said the bastards had to pay
In Weatherspoons the punters screamed, they hurled abuse and no longer dreamed
Of chains of Europe broken, those words they all were token
And the man they trusted like a priest – thought Nigel would surely fight at least
He’d caught the last plane for Belize
The day that Brexit died
And so we’re singing …
Bye bye, it was not Do or Die
Brexit stolen from the People, what a poke in the eye
Those good ole boys eating pasties and pies, saying all the liberal traitors must die
Saying ALL the liberal traitors must die!
:-)
1708 Scottish Militia Bill. Passed both houses but the French were then sighted sailing to Scotland so Queen Anne decided not to trust the Scots with guns.
Or are they the 'wrong' minority?
I presume the election business is because they can’t stomach it themselves.
If only I could have similar luck at Ascot......
I am reading the Guardian now. Maybe this has been covered on PB already.
Needs must when the devil drives.
https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1168598771514707974
But what about achievement!
I always preferred A/C to C/A in school.
The things people do for excitement.
If he wants to neuter the BXP, he can only offer "Clean Break" Brexit
Otherwise, the BXP will get between 10-15% of the votes and he cannot get any of the Northern Labour seats.
If he does offer a "Clean Break" Brexit, there isn't a appetite in the nation for such a strategy. People will not elect a government to do a No Deal Brexit.
If 21 Tory MPs vote to extend and Boris expels all 21 MPs from the Party then anything Farage says is going to look pale in comparison. When you have the left screaming "stop the coup" as we enter an election, when you have Hammond, Clarke, Gauke etc thrown out of the party as well an election to prevent an extension . . . Farage standing against Boris is going to look silly.
Boris can go into this continuing his current line - we will work to get a deal agreed on 17 Oct and exit do or die on 31 Oct. Farage may complain he doesn't want a deal, but when Boris is literally expelling Remainers from his party he's not going to look weak on Brexit.
Boris may lose the votes of people like Mr Nabavi, TSE, Big G etc - which is a massive shame if so and I hope not - but the only people Farage will attract are people who would never vote Tory anyway.
https://twitter.com/unherd/status/1168599742751891456
The bottom line here is we turn to no deal not to pressure the EU, but to put off the inevitable compromise we need to make in order to strike a post brexit deal with the EU.
Remainer May had years to come up with something she could only try to get passed by keeping people in dark, every bounce in the book, May and her remainer team had years, the clock barely started on PM Boris and his leaver government negotiation. Yes the vote was 2016 but its important to Brexit in the right way, to embed Brexit change, ensure longtivity of Brexit, unnecessarily rush it now, such as No Deal clearly not the preferred deal because of problems it will bring.
to get it right is better than a bad start that discredits the whole venture. Its clear the deadline is not For Boris, gives Boris too little time to explore the necessary changes, negotiate properly, ithat dates an invention of the EU, designed to frustrate Brexit. Its actually EU tactic using No Deal to pressure May’s replacement with no proper time for negotiation hence Markel saying unfeasible s 30 days.
If I were Boris I would say, give me till end of March to properly negotiate and pass the right deal
leaving in a way that discredits the venture is actually betrayal of every leave vote. That’s the truth of this situation. Is there no leaver in the country refusing to see how remainer May wasted time so not prepared to back Boris till 31st March to put it right?
The bottom line here is brexiteers turn to no deal not to pressure the EU, but out of cowardice, to postpone the inevitable compromise we need to make in order to strike a post brexit deal with the EU. How many times has HY told as as much “need to brexit October 31st or all Leave Tories and voters go to Farage.” See, the no deal is driven by fear.
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2019/01/22/robert-craig-could-the-government-advise-the-queen-to-refuse-royal-assent-to-a-backbench-bill/
However, it also says that the government is not entitled to give such advice if it has lost the confidence of parliament. So probably a VONC could prevent Johnson from depriving a bill of royal assent.
Boris has put everyone in a very tough spot and we're less than two months away from no deal.
But I think the PM would get the votes for 3.
"We shall demonstrate the power, of this fully operational battle station !"
It's "Mr Corbyn" or it's "Jeremy Corbyn" or it's "The Leader of the Opposition".
Does he think he's in Weatherspoons or at a golf club dinner or something?
Does this matter?
Yes.
Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.
There’s also no requirement that they be on a Thursday. That’s a convention that’s arisen since the 1930s.
The cult would really hate that!
This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
Good - so look up "treachery".
And "literally".
Then edit post accordingly.
Cheers.
An election is coming one way or another this year. Most MPs want to survive.
I think Corbyn will want an election and most Labour MPs will follow their leader.
In an election, the best way to ensure that you are there in the next Parliament is to be loyal to your party.