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  • GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Have to say, as a Farage fan and former Kipper, I don’t get his obsession with No Deal. Leaving the EU was our goal. I had assumed keeping No Deal on the table was to pressure MPs who wish to waste time into voting for a deal.
    Nigel would probably have accepted EEA in 2016 but like everyone he's got more extreme through this tortuous process...
    He realises that if we do leave the EU he becomes irrelevant. He has to keep shouting traitor and blasphemer at everyone to try and keep in the public eye. Either that or he is doing someone else's bidding perhaps. What is the latest on Arron Banks?
  • I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    Sounds fantastic. Although sounds like a bit of a waste of wine.

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    Sounds fantastic; somewhat of a waste of wine though. Although, TBH, some Bulgarian wine is only marginally worth drinking.
    It's rather good actually. All from the Thracian valley. Lots of Roman heritage.

    Nice choice of very affordable wines.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    GIN1138 said:

    isam said:

    Have to say, as a Farage fan and former Kipper, I don’t get his obsession with No Deal. Leaving the EU was our goal. I had assumed keeping No Deal on the table was to pressure MPs who wish to waste time into voting for a deal.
    Nigel would probably have accepted EEA in 2016 but like everyone he's got more extreme through this tortuous process...
    On the contrary, I would still accept EEA.
  • isam said:

    It would be quite the volte face from here for the Brexit party to lay down its arms vis a vis the Conservatives.

    Indeed it would. I appreciate this isn't the point here, but where can they actually win? Maybe Northern Labour seats and possibly Buckingham?
    There’ll always be Thurrock!
    Jackie Doyle-Price has 3 consecutive wins by a total of 973 votes. Bonus point to anyone who knows the equivalent(ish) MP on the Labour side (3 wins by a total of 2,232).
    Paul Farrelly in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
    Steward's enquiry as TSE wins again
    I'm doing a thread on the marginals and it was something I noticed a few days ago.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    a) tmi
    b) a wine bath is a thing?
    You’re SUCH a pleb. Of course a wine bath is a thing. I had my first, about 15 years ago, here:


    https://en.caudalie.com/spas-boutiques

    At the end of my trip the owner, Mathilde, asked me to share a £5000 bottle of Bordeaux from a nearby winery. Hard times, they were. Hard.
    I am such a pleb which is why I come to PB to gain enlightenment. £5,000 bottle of wine? Hardly an owner-served ampoule of Penfolds Block 42 now, is it?
    Hah! OK let’s play wine snob top trumps.

    I was once handed a nearly full bottle of Mouton Rothschild 1945. The person handing it to me said “do you want to finish this? We opened a few last night for granny’s birthday but I’ve had enough”.

    The person giving it to me was a Rothschild. The bottle was worth, even then, about £10,000.

    If you can beat that I shall pay you my respects and retire hurt: and drive to Sparta to buy some (cheaper) wine.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    They are frit but how Corbyn turns it down with the SNP backing it and after all he has said
    I'm not sure it's that - rather that they want to ensure the election doesn't somehow fall after Oct 31st ?

    And presumably they trust Corbyn on this point not massively more than Johnson.
    That's the trouble; no-one trusts anyone. I know that's normal in politics, but at the moment it's significantly worse than normal.
    And Cummings machinations make the situation worse.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Hah. Nothing probably tempted him more than Blair railing against the idea on the radio this morning.

    Quite. Does Blair have any self-awareness?
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    TOPPING said:

    Boris: Do you want an election?
    Jezza: Yes. In November, after an extension of the leaving date to Jan 2020.

    They would fight about no you didn't yes I did for years.

    In the meantime there wouldn't be an election.
    There's every chance there won't be an election.
    The MPs should just remove Boris. It removes No Deal and extinguishes his leadership...
  • Nigel might have played a blinder here. Boris is now surely completely cornered and has to go with full-on No Deal. That might buy him some short-term reprieve, but the long-term prospects will be ghastly.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    isam said:

    Have to say, as a Farage fan and former Kipper, I don’t get his obsession with No Deal. Leaving the EU was our goal. I had assumed keeping No Deal on the table was to pressure MPs who wish to waste time into voting for a deal.
    Tactics. I don't think Johnson wants to campaign on Undiluted Pure No Deal, He wants an October election so he can campaign on "Give us a mandate to get our deal with the threat of no deal". To which Farage can (plausibly) say "Tchah, we don't trust that, we're standing everywhere." I don't read Farage as a Duke of York figure who'd enjoy marching his troops down again. He likes a fight.

    Semi-O/T - here's a view from a Swiss Eurosceptic (equivalent of a mild version of the AfD but a Minister) - Brexiteers will like his throwaway hint that they might join us in research, but EEA fans will note his caution on that one:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/faced-with-dogmatic-eu-switzerland-may-turn-to-uk-on-research-cooperation/?utm_source=EURACTIV&utm_campaign=2c98801ad5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_05_27_10_05_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c59e2fd7a9-2c98801ad5-114478043
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    a) tmi
    b) a wine bath is a thing?
    You’re SUCH a pleb. Of course a wine bath is a thing. I had my first, about 15 years ago, here:


    https://en.caudalie.com/spas-boutiques

    At the end of my trip the owner, Mathilde, asked me to share a £5000 bottle of Bordeaux from a nearby winery. Hard times, they were. Hard.
    I am such a pleb which is why I come to PB to gain enlightenment. £5,000 bottle of wine? Hardly an owner-served ampoule of Penfolds Block 42 now, is it?
    Hah! OK let’s play wine snob top trumps.

    I was once handed a nearly full bottle of Mouton Rothschild 1945. The person handing it to me said “do you want to finish this? We opened a few last night for granny’s birthday but I’ve had enough”.

    The person giving it to me was a Rothschild. The bottle was worth, even then, about £10,000.

    If you can beat that I shall pay you my respects and retire hurt: and drive to Sparta to buy some (cheaper) wine.
    I had an excellent sancerre last night. £15 from Tesco.
  • For once we agree. The man is clearly an idiot.

    No wonder socialism / marxism / communism is such a failure with fools like Corbyn as advocates.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    edited September 2019
    If the Tories do want an election, hearing Blair's dulcet tones telling Corbyn not to do it must have been cause for a champagne breakfast at No 10.
  • Scott_P said:
    The little man is growing in stature all the time. History may yet view him positively
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    DavidL said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    a) tmi
    b) a wine bath is a thing?
    You’re SUCH a pleb. Of course a wine bath is a thing. I had my first, about 15 years ago, here:


    https://en.caudalie.com/spas-boutiques

    At the end of my trip the owner, Mathilde, asked me to share a £5000 bottle of Bordeaux from a nearby winery. Hard times, they were. Hard.
    I am such a pleb which is why I come to PB to gain enlightenment. £5,000 bottle of wine? Hardly an owner-served ampoule of Penfolds Block 42 now, is it?
    Hah! OK let’s play wine snob top trumps.

    I was once handed a nearly full bottle of Mouton Rothschild 1945. The person handing it to me said “do you want to finish this? We opened a few last night for granny’s birthday but I’ve had enough”.

    The person giving it to me was a Rothschild. The bottle was worth, even then, about £10,000.

    If you can beat that I shall pay you my respects and retire hurt: and drive to Sparta to buy some (cheaper) wine.
    I had an excellent sancerre last night. £15 from Tesco.
    £15?! Someone’s doing well.
  • I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    It's called Don Simon in Spain. It was 60 pesetas (30 pence) a litre when I lived there. Worked for me!

  • For once we agree. The man is clearly an idiot.

    No wonder socialism / marxism / communism is such a failure with fools like Corbyn as advocates.
    Guys, he's playing a long game, remember.

    When he loses again, he gets to resign from a job he clearly can't be arsed to do.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    a) tmi
    b) a wine bath is a thing?
    You’re SUCH a pleb. Of course a wine bath is a thing. I had my first, about 15 years ago, here:


    https://en.caudalie.com/spas-boutiques

    At the end of my trip the owner, Mathilde, asked me to share a £5000 bottle of Bordeaux from a nearby winery. Hard times, they were. Hard.
    I am such a pleb which is why I come to PB to gain enlightenment. £5,000 bottle of wine? Hardly an owner-served ampoule of Penfolds Block 42 now, is it?
    Hah! OK let’s play wine snob top trumps.

    I was once handed a nearly full bottle of Mouton Rothschild 1945. The person handing it to me said “do you want to finish this? We opened a few last night for granny’s birthday but I’ve had enough”.

    The person giving it to me was a Rothschild. The bottle was worth, even then, about £10,000.

    If you can beat that I shall pay you my respects and retire hurt: and drive to Sparta to buy some (cheaper) wine.
    Who do you think was at granny's party the night before?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    I bottled the wine Casino Royale bathed in and sold it in an ampoule labelled Penfolds.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    Yes, I have had some pints in a whetherspoon pub! Nobody is talking politics by the way....
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:



    It’s very hard to assess. I expect the government to do all it can to minimise the effects in the immediate days. But there are lots of dependencies and unknown factors. For instance, if there were a virulent flu outbreak and a shortage of vaccines with consequent pressures on the NHS, how could one prove that the death of someone not admitted to hospital because of a shortage of beds was due to No Deal etc?

    We are simply in uncharted territory, no country ever having done anything remotely similar. It could go OK or it could be a disaster or at any point in between, depending on whcih point in time you’re looking at

    So not really any basis for saying, as you did, that it would be "nothing like as bad as feared"?

    Obviously I don't know either, but based on the evidence of relatively minor causes producing quite major disruption, I find it plausible that it could be complete chaos.
    No basis at all. I’m not being Pollyanna-ish. Personally I fear that it could be quite bad. But the reason for saying what I did is that the government will be desperate to make the first few days look ok until press interest dies down so that they can run a “Project Fear overdone (again) story”.

    My concern is more for what happens in the days, weeks, months afterwards. I gave an example over the weekend of one particular example in my industry.

    But you may very well be right and it could be worse. We are in butterfly-chaos territory here, aren’t we? Certainly, doctors and food retailers are concerned and I’d trust what they say more than the government.
    Yes. I was told here yesterday to "grow up" for suggesting that there could be food shortages. But apparently after Michael Gove claimed “there will be no shortages of fresh food,” the British Retail Consortium issued a statement saying they had told ministers repeatedly that that wasn't true.

    If ministers are lying to us about the potential for food shortages as a result of their policies, I think people should be very concerned.

    We are still nearly two months away from a No Deal Brexit. I think it would be entirely prudent for people to build up some reserves of food during that period. Yet Matt Hancock publicly told people they shouldn't do so. I think that is the height of irreponsibility. If people die as a result of this reckless policy, I think he and others should be held to account.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited September 2019

    isam said:

    Have to say, as a Farage fan and former Kipper, I don’t get his obsession with No Deal. Leaving the EU was our goal. I had assumed keeping No Deal on the table was to pressure MPs who wish to waste time into voting for a deal.
    Tactics. I don't think Johnson wants to campaign on Undiluted Pure No Deal, He wants an October election so he can campaign on "Give us a mandate to get our deal with the threat of no deal". To which Farage can (plausibly) say "Tchah, we don't trust that, we're standing everywhere." I don't read Farage as a Duke of York figure who'd enjoy marching his troops down again. He likes a fight.
    I think that is true - have a credible no deal option lined up, come to the HoC with minutes (figuratively) left on the clock, and say "back me or here's no deal".

    Thing is, just like the EU with its access to the internet, people both saw through that and also refused to play the game. Because game it always was, as was it with TMay.
  • I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    My uncle used to bring back this stuff from France that came in ribbed plastic bottles similar to the ones they put methylated spirits in. He called it 'village idiot'. It was rather rank and gave you nasty hangovers.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    edited September 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:


    5. There will be a bit of chaos but nothing like as bad as feared in the immediate short-term.

    This is quite an important question, though. If we leave without a deal, how much chaos will there be - how many people will die as a result, and so on.

    I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone express an opinion on it that was backed up by actual facts.
    It’s very hard to assess. I expect the government to do all it can to minimise the effects in the immediate days. But there are lots of dependencies and unknown factors. For instance, if there were a virulent flu outbreak and a shortage of vaccines with consequent pressures on the NHS, how could one prove that the death of someone not admitted to hospital because of a shortage of beds was due to No Deal etc?

    We are simply in uncharted territory, no country ever having done anything remotely similar. It could go OK or it could be a disaster or at any point in between, depending on whcih point in time you’re looking at
    So not really any basis for saying, as you did, that it would be "nothing like as bad as feared"?

    Obviously I don't know either, but based on the evidence of relatively minor causes producing quite major disruption, I find it plausible that it could be complete chaos.
    No basis at all. I’m not being Pollyanna-ish. Personally I fear that it could be quite bad. But the reason for saying what I did is that the government will be desperate to make the first few days look ok until press interest dies down so that they can run a “Project Fear overdone (again) story”.

    My concern is more for what happens in the days, weeks, months afterwards. I gave an example over the weekend of one particular example in my industry.

    But you may very well be right and it could be worse. We are in butterfly-chaos territory here, aren’t we? Certainly, doctors and food retailers are concerned and I’d trust what they say more than the government.
    There is already a shortage of flu vaccine, although apparently it's nothing to do with Brexit, simply the normal manufacturing problems. However, there is apparently a problem with a blood-pressure medication , where EMA inspectors have found contamination in Indian and Chinese factories. The EMA are on to it, but after we Leave we'll have to have our own inspectors to check these things.
    Although Mr C might know better.
  • I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    I've drunk water from a stream on a mountain on the outskirts of Knoydart, after which I discovered some German Scouts were swimming naked a hundred metres upstream.

    What should that be called? Vin de Hoden?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    Last week I bought a two litre plastic bottle of red wine from the organic winemaker in his tiny deli in the dreamy remoteness of the northern Peloponnese mountains.

    It cost me €3. For 2 litres. And it was very drinkable and probably more enjoyable than the £10,000 bottle of Mouton R.

    Ok. Off to Sparta. Epharisto
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    They are frit but how Corbyn turns it down with the SNP backing it and after all he has said
    I'm not sure it's that - rather that they want to ensure the election doesn't somehow fall after Oct 31st ?

    And presumably they trust Corbyn on this point not massively more than Johnson.
    That's the trouble; no-one trusts anyone. I know that's normal in politics, but at the moment it's significantly worse than normal.
    And Cummings machinations make the situation worse.
    I think historians will judge that the erosion of trust in public figures peaked (hopefully) about now. Politicians have always been a little slippery, but the current leadership of Labour and the CINO Party really take the biscuit. As Boris went to Eton, maybe we should call it Cummy's biscuit?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Nigel might have played a blinder here. Boris is now surely completely cornered and has to go with full-on No Deal. That might buy him some short-term reprieve, but the long-term prospects will be ghastly.
    It's crazy to assume that embracing No Deal will win him the election.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    DavidL said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    a) tmi
    b) a wine bath is a thing?
    You’re SUCH a pleb. Of course a wine bath is a thing. I had my first, about 15 years ago, here:


    https://en.caudalie.com/spas-boutiques

    At the end of my trip the owner, Mathilde, asked me to share a £5000 bottle of Bordeaux from a nearby winery. Hard times, they were. Hard.
    I am such a pleb which is why I come to PB to gain enlightenment. £5,000 bottle of wine? Hardly an owner-served ampoule of Penfolds Block 42 now, is it?
    Hah! OK let’s play wine snob top trumps.

    I was once handed a nearly full bottle of Mouton Rothschild 1945. The person handing it to me said “do you want to finish this? We opened a few last night for granny’s birthday but I’ve had enough”.

    The person giving it to me was a Rothschild. The bottle was worth, even then, about £10,000.

    If you can beat that I shall pay you my respects and retire hurt: and drive to Sparta to buy some (cheaper) wine.
    I had an excellent sancerre last night. £15 from Tesco.
    £15?! Someone’s doing well.
    It was a birthday present.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Scott_P said:
    That would be the Gavin Esler who joined the Change UK Party ?

    Well I suppose hes better placed than most on self destruction.
  • I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice.

    But have you ever been to you?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice.

    But have you ever been to you?
    :lol:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    Yes, I have had some pints in a whetherspoon pub! Nobody is talking politics by the way....
    As long as its Ruddles you’re drinking.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice.

    But have you ever been to you?
    Charlene?
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cummings probably got this one right, and was depending on it.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1168544562954067970
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    Parliament has had THREE years to agree a deal. And it has failed to do so.

    The corollary is that we leave without a deal.

    The public seem to understand this rather better than the self-appointed guardians of moral and political rectitude on the remain side seem to realise.

    Ok, I'll take this one:

    No attempt was made to involve parliament in the repercussions of the referendum. There was no reaching out to craft a serious endgame position before the triggering of Article 50. Instead we had Nick Timothy and crush the saboteurs.

    This has been clusterfucked all the way.

    The public do not understand jack shit. How many have read Ivan Rogers' latest piece for the Spectator, and digested its implications? Have you for that matter? What is your post-no-deal pathway for the UK (if it exists) that does not involve decades of shit-eating, and a serious undermining of the integrity of the West?

    But carry on doing Putin's work for him.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
  • NOM and Lab maj odds drifting further whilst Con maj odds still shortening....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    AndyJS said:

    Cummings probably got this one right, and was depending on it.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1168544562954067970

    Nothing quite like a bit of Tony Blair on the airwaves to goad Corbyn into acting a certain way.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    Why not? Because Corbyn is a fucking idiot and a silly narcissist, who really thinks he can win, and Boris and Co know this, and laid a trap, and he walked in to it.

    Ok. Sparta. Enough.
  • DavidL said:

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice.

    But have you ever been to you?
    Charlene?
    Aye!

    Quite a howl of anguish if you actually look at the lyrics.

    Sometimes I've been to cryin' for unborn children
    That might have made me complete
    But I, I took the sweet life and never knew I'd be bitter from the sweet
    I spent my life exploring the subtle whoring that cost too much to be free
    Hey lady, I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    Sounds fantastic. Although sounds like a bit of a waste of wine.

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    Sounds fantastic; somewhat of a waste of wine though. Although, TBH, some Bulgarian wine is only marginally worth drinking.
    It's rather good actually. All from the Thracian valley. Lots of Roman heritage.

    Nice choice of very affordable wines.
    Not the stuff you bathe in, surely? But I agree, there are some very good, and inexpensive, Thracian wines. IIRC, and Mr Dancer will, I am sure confirm, Thracian wine has been highly thought of since time immemorial. Bit of a waste that the area was under Moslem control for so long.
    There are some very pleasant Macedonian ones, too, from just across the border.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    I've drunk water from a stream on a mountain on the outskirts of Knoydart, after which I discovered some German Scouts were swimming naked a hundred metres upstream.

    What should that be called? Vin de Hoden?
    I think it should be called "dilute German Scout piss". But to each his own.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    RobD said:

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
    If the election is held before October 31st I don't see why an extension is needed. If Corbyn+Others win a majority to stop "No deal" then I think they (Corbyn) can send someone (Himself maybe) to the EU to request an extension whilst they work out the plans for Labour's Unicorn Brexit or another referendum.
  • Ah, the spirit of the Brexiteers:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168550840778379264

    All for one and everybody for himself.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    Scott_P said:
    That would be the Gavin Esler who joined the Change UK Party ?

    Well I suppose hes better placed than most on self destruction.
    Paul Mason Syndrome
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Chris said:

    Nigel might have played a blinder here. Boris is now surely completely cornered and has to go with full-on No Deal. That might buy him some short-term reprieve, but the long-term prospects will be ghastly.
    It's crazy to assume that embracing No Deal will win him the election.
    Because, of course, everything's been really sane so far.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Been thinking about what Boris should do to leave on 31 Oct with enough political capital to survive beyond it.

    He should schedule a MV for late 28 October. Make it a free vote on whatever the status of the deal is by then. Get agreement from Gaukeward now for no extensions.

    Pressure is then on his opponents.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    As is the welfare of UK citizens.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
    If the election is held before October 31st I don't see why an extension is needed. If Corbyn+Others win a majority to stop "No deal" then I think they (Corbyn) can send someone (Himself maybe) to the EU to request an extension whilst they work out the plans for Labour's Unicorn Brexit or another referendum.
    The EU has to agree an extension on Oct 17th.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:



    We are simply in uncharted territory, no country ever having done anything remotely similar. It could go OK or it could be a disaster or at any point in between, depending on whcih point in time you’re looking at

    So not really any basis for saying, as you did, that it would be "nothing like as bad as feared"?

    Obviously I don't know either, but based on the evidence of relatively minor causes producing quite major disruption, I find it plausible that it could be complete chaos.
    No basis at all. I’m not being Pollyanna-ish. Personally I fear that it could be quite bad. But the reason for saying what I did is that the government will be desperate to make the first few days look ok until press interest dies down so that they can run a “Project Fear overdone (again) story”.

    My concern is more for what happens in the days, weeks, months afterwards. I gave an example over the weekend of one particular example in my industry.

    But you may very well be right and it could be worse. We are in butterfly-chaos territory here, aren’t we? Certainly, doctors and food retailers are concerned and I’d trust what they say more than the government.
    Yes. I was told here yesterday to "grow up" for suggesting that there could be food shortages. But apparently after Michael Gove claimed “there will be no shortages of fresh food,” the British Retail Consortium issued a statement saying they had told ministers repeatedly that that wasn't true.

    If ministers are lying to us about the potential for food shortages as a result of their policies, I think people should be very concerned.

    We are still nearly two months away from a No Deal Brexit. I think it would be entirely prudent for people to build up some reserves of food during that period. Yet Matt Hancock publicly told people they shouldn't do so. I think that is the height of irreponsibility. If people die as a result of this reckless policy, I think he and others should be held to account.
    I quite agree. I am building up my reserves.

    We do not have a responsible grown up government.

    I felt that Britain had quite a grown up thoughtful political culture, and it was one reason I was - and to a certain extent still am - quite sceptical about the EU project. (Note: IMO there is a difference between being Eurosceptic and a Brexiteer.) But the last few years have been quite an eye opener. The extent of the frivolousness and a fundamental lack of seriousness in our politicians, with a few rare exceptions, has been shocking.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
    If the election is held before October 31st I don't see why an extension is needed. If Corbyn+Others win a majority to stop "No deal" then I think they (Corbyn) can send someone (Himself maybe) to the EU to request an extension whilst they work out the plans for Labour's Unicorn Brexit or another referendum.
    IF.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Cummings probably got this one right, and was depending on it.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1168544562954067970

    Nothing quite like a bit of Tony Blair on the airwaves to goad Corbyn into acting a certain way.
    Nothing to do with Blair.

    Corbyn is and always has been a secret LEAVER.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Wasn't the talk yesterday of how Boris would be trapped in number 10 until 2022? :D
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    edited September 2019

    Ah, the spirit of the Brexiteers:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168550840778379264

    All for one and everybody for himself.

    The London seats can swing counter to the average national Tory-Lab swing but if Amber Rudd is losing Hastings and Rye then the Tories are in a whole world of trouble and Corbyn is probably PM.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:

    Scott_P said:
    Osborne's attitude to Stewart is interesting.
    "Aged 46, Stewart is a neat figure, and by far the smartest person in the Peckham pub where we have met..."

    There must have been some truly scruffy oiks in the pub.
    Unless he had drained Casino Royale's bath beforehand
    @Casino_Royale . @BelleDelphine . Easy to confuse the two.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fzM4KzH5ks
  • Scott_P said:
    That actually brings a tear to my eye. Back then there was a least some romance and optimism in aspects of Brexit. These days it's just grubby politics and smart arsery - solely about Cummings's one-upmanship and Boris's career.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    Yes, I have had some pints in a whetherspoon pub! Nobody is talking politics by the way....
    As long as its Ruddles you’re drinking.
    No Fosters! But I might have some moretti or hophouse later!

    I wonder how viewcode got on in belfast? Hopefully well and might have seen stormont inside and out.

    I might just look at the comments now as having too much boozy comments is bad!
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    RobD said:

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
    But apart from 50 or so Corbynistas, other Labour MPs are not Leavers, secret or otherwise.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289

    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:


    5. There will be a bit of chaos but nothing like as bad as feared in the immediate short-term.

    This is quite an important question, though. If we leave without a deal, how much chaos will there be - how many people will die as a result, and so on.
    It’s very hard to assess. I expect the government to do all it can to minimise the effects in the immediate days. But there are lots of dependencies and unknown factors. For instance, if there were a virulent flu outbreak and a shortage of vaccines with consequent pressures on the NHS, how could one prove that the death of someone not admitted to hospital because of a shortage of beds was due to No Deal etc?

    We are simply in uncharted territory, no country ever having done anything remotely similar. It could go OK or it could be a disaster or at any point in between, depending on whcih point in time you’re looking at
    So not really any basis for saying, as you did, that it would be "nothing like as bad as feared"?

    Obviously I don't know either, but based on the evidence of relatively minor causes producing quite major disruption, I find it plausible that it could be complete chaos.
    No basis at all. I’m not being Pollyanna-ish. Personally I fear that it could be quite bad. But the reason for saying what I did is that the government will be desperate to make the first few days look ok until press interest dies down so that they can run a “Project Fear overdone (again) story”.

    My concern is more for what happens in the days, weeks, months afterwards. I gave an example over the weekend of one particular example in my industry.

    But you may very well be right and it could be worse. We are in butterfly-chaos territory here, aren’t we? Certainly, doctors and food retailers are concerned and I’d trust what they say more than the government.
    There is already a shortage of flu vaccine, although apparently it's nothing to do with Brexit, simply the normal manufacturing problems. However, there is apparently a problem with a blood-pressure medication , where EMA inspectors have found contamination in Indian and Chinese factories. The EMA are on to it, but after we Leave we'll have to have our own inspectors to check these things.
    Although Mr C might know better.
    I'm recalling these numbers off the top of my head, so ball park only.

    I think, as of last year, over 30% of Indian pharmaceutical manufacturing capacity had been offline at some point in the last 4 years due to failed FDA inspections, with an average time to switch back on in the 3-6 months range.

    As with auto, Brexit will just be one more systemic problem in pharma supply.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Pulpstar said:

    Hah. Nothing probably tempted him more than Blair railing against the idea on the radio this morning.

    Quite. Does Blair have any self-awareness?
    Perhaps it was reverse psychology. Blair wants an election to purge Labour and/or complete the realignmnet, so says to Corbyn, under no circumstance should we have an election. Corbyn duly complies by asking for one as he does the opposite of what Blair wants.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    viewcode said:

    Chris said:

    Nigel might have played a blinder here. Boris is now surely completely cornered and has to go with full-on No Deal. That might buy him some short-term reprieve, but the long-term prospects will be ghastly.
    It's crazy to assume that embracing No Deal will win him the election.
    Because, of course, everything's been really sane so far.
    Don't get me wrong. Nobody knows what will happen.

    But embracing No Deal is as high-risk a strategy as anyone can imagine.

    It could lead to complete disaster.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
    If the election is held before October 31st I don't see why an extension is needed. If Corbyn+Others win a majority to stop "No deal" then I think they (Corbyn) can send someone (Himself maybe) to the EU to request an extension whilst they work out the plans for Labour's Unicorn Brexit or another referendum.
    IF.
    Yes, the conditional has to be pulled out frequently in discussions of hypotheticals. As Meeks rightly points out there may well be no election - the general rule that the possibility of "something" happening is always talked up by journalists still applies, as 'nothing' is always a bit of a well... dull topic.
  • Jonathan said:

    Been thinking about what Boris should do to leave on 31 Oct with enough political capital to survive beyond it.

    He should schedule a MV for late 28 October. Make it a free vote on whatever the status of the deal is by then. Get agreement from Gaukeward now for no extensions.

    Pressure is then on his opponents.

    No its not. By then it would be too late to do anything. They would just say so and point at Boris and say "What is coming is entirely your fault."
  • viewcode said:

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    I've drunk water from a stream on a mountain on the outskirts of Knoydart, after which I discovered some German Scouts were swimming naked a hundred metres upstream.

    What should that be called? Vin de Hoden?
    I think it should be called "dilute German Scout piss". But to each his own.
    TBF, "dilute German Scout piss" is probably preferable to many cheap wines ...
  • I wonder how many elections Corbyn has to lose before the Labour Party realises that Corbynism is a non-starter?
  • RobD said:

    Wasn't the talk yesterday of how Boris would be trapped in number 10 until 2022? :D

    A day is a long time in politics!

    I guess Blair put the kiss of death on that course of action. More fool Jezza if he plays Bozo's game, however.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Amazing that people are such absolute sheep. I don't have a mobile phone, but if I did, and someone told me I wouldn't be allowed to attend a social event without handing it over, I should find something else to do very quickly. Pitiful.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Been thinking about what Boris should do to leave on 31 Oct with enough political capital to survive beyond it.

    He should schedule a MV for late 28 October. Make it a free vote on whatever the status of the deal is by then. Get agreement from Gaukeward now for no extensions.

    Pressure is then on his opponents.

    No its not. By then it would be too late to do anything. They would just say so and point at Boris and say "What is coming is entirely your fault."
    He would say “I’ve heard the concerns , No one wants no deal. So on 28 October we have one chance to avert it. I call on the EU and opposition to come together to get a deal over the line. I offer a free vote. The onus is now on everyone to come together and pass a better deal”.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    Not always the best to get wine recommendations from a tee-totaller, I'll admit - but I'm getting "Bloody hell - that's good!" reactions to the M&S Terres de Moraines Madiran 2015 at £8 a bottle.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216

    RobD said:

    He is completely mad. Why not say, "Yes, but after the extension is agreed". And, please none of those Andrew Neil shit about Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments. Really ? So , why are we still talking about FTPA 2011 ?
    An extension would still mean a lot unless Johnson and his Tories win an absolute majority, in which case, he can amend or abolish the Act.
    He's a secret Leaver and doing his best to sabotage the efforts of rebel MPs. :)
    But apart from 50 or so Corbynistas, other Labour MPs are not Leavers, secret or otherwise.
    If both Corbyn and Johnson want an election, the numbers will be there. Corbyn's said he wants one, wholly consistent with his earlier musings. Does Johnson ? We'll soon find out.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    TBF, "dilute German Scout piss" is probably preferable to many cheap wines ...

    Probably higher alcohol content than most American beers too.
  • Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    Byronic said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am very relaxed.

    Just had a wine bath with my wife followed by a head, shoulders and back massage in a wine spa resort in rural Bulgaria

    It's amazing how that takes the edge off.

    a) tmi
    b) a wine bath is a thing?
    You’re SUCH a pleb. Of course a wine bath is a thing. I had my first, about 15 years ago, here:


    https://en.caudalie.com/spas-boutiques

    At the end of my trip the owner, Mathilde, asked me to share a £5000 bottle of Bordeaux from a nearby winery. Hard times, they were. Hard.
    I am such a pleb which is why I come to PB to gain enlightenment. £5,000 bottle of wine? Hardly an owner-served ampoule of Penfolds Block 42 now, is it?
    Hah! OK let’s play wine snob top trumps.

    I was once handed a nearly full bottle of Mouton Rothschild 1945. The person handing it to me said “do you want to finish this? We opened a few last night for granny’s birthday but I’ve had enough”.

    The person giving it to me was a Rothschild. The bottle was worth, even then, about £10,000.

    If you can beat that I shall pay you my respects and retire hurt: and drive to Sparta to buy some (cheaper) wine.
    I've never spent more than a tenner on a bottle of wine. I doubt I have ever drunk anything much more than a 30 quid bottle in my life. Is wine the new Air Miles on PB?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    If Corbyn wins an overall majority he won't know whether to support Brexit or not. I think he's confused about which way to go on the subject.
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,855
    edited September 2019

    Ah, the spirit of the Brexiteers:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168550840778379264

    All for one and everybody for himself.

    Definitely Francois or Baker.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:
    I'm sure Boris and Cummings will run a Con candidate against him.

    Were you up for Bercow? :D
  • Not always the best to get wine recommendations from a tee-totaller, I'll admit - but I'm getting "Bloody hell - that's good!" reactions to the M&S Terres de Moraines Madiran 2015 at £8 a bottle.

    If you think that's good, wait until you try Lanliq.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been thinking about what Boris should do to leave on 31 Oct with enough political capital to survive beyond it.

    He should schedule a MV for late 28 October. Make it a free vote on whatever the status of the deal is by then. Get agreement from Gaukeward now for no extensions.

    Pressure is then on his opponents.

    No its not. By then it would be too late to do anything. They would just say so and point at Boris and say "What is coming is entirely your fault."
    He would say “I’ve heard the concerns , No one wants no deal. So on 28 October we have one chance to avert it. I call on the EU and opposition to come together to get a deal over the line. I offer a free vote. The onus is now on everyone to come together and pass a better deal”.
    No. If you wait until Oct 28th, the only option left is Revoke, because it takes very little time - probably an afternoon and that includes writing the letter and sending a plane over to Brussels to deliver it.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Tabman said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Hah. Nothing probably tempted him more than Blair railing against the idea on the radio this morning.

    Quite. Does Blair have any self-awareness?
    Perhaps it was reverse psychology. Blair wants an election to purge Labour and/or complete the realignmnet, so says to Corbyn, under no circumstance should we have an election. Corbyn duly complies by asking for one as he does the opposite of what Blair wants.
    To be fair to Blair if he set up a Blair party i would vote for iti!
  • Byronic said:

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    Last week I bought a two litre plastic bottle of red wine from the organic winemaker in his tiny deli in the dreamy remoteness of the northern Peloponnese mountains.

    It cost me €3. For 2 litres. And it was very drinkable and probably more enjoyable than the £10,000 bottle of Mouton R.

    Ok. Off to Sparta. Epharisto
    "Off to Sparta"

    Say 'Hi' to Steve Baker.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Scott_P said:
    As we've discussed many times before, it's the appointment of the alternative prime minister that matters, not the vote in the House of Commons. Subject to correction, a prime minister has never been appointed because the Commons has voted that he should be appointed.
  • Chris said:

    Amazing that people are such absolute sheep. I don't have a mobile phone, but if I did, and someone told me I wouldn't be allowed to attend a social event without handing it over, I should find something else to do very quickly. Pitiful.
    Anyone who does that may run afoul of the new Cumming Directive and be deselected ;)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    viewcode said:

    I’ve drank Tesco Spanish table wine, sold in a carton like orange juice. Can you beat that?

    I've drunk water from a stream on a mountain on the outskirts of Knoydart, after which I discovered some German Scouts were swimming naked a hundred metres upstream.

    What should that be called? Vin de Hoden?
    I think it should be called "dilute German Scout piss". But to each his own.
    TBF, "dilute German Scout piss" is probably preferable to many cheap wines ...
    das Deutschesscoutpisseverdünnen . Tesco, £13:99 per bottle. "...Deep purple colour. Aromas of rich dark currants, nectarine skins, gushing blackberry, but lots of fragrant tobacco, rich soil, white flowers, smashed minerals and metal. Medium-bodied and saucy but racy acidity stabilises the wine nicely with the robust tannins. Deep red currants and ripe cherries, laden with mocha, loamy soil, charred herbs, pencil shavings, roasted hazelnut...", Jilly Goolden. 4/5 stars. Best served with a strong cheese.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited September 2019

    I wonder how many elections Corbyn has to lose before the Labour Party realises that Corbynism is a non-starter?

    I think it might soon be time for Jezza to "depart" but we shall see.

    Maybe he'll do another 2017 and surprise everyone.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been thinking about what Boris should do to leave on 31 Oct with enough political capital to survive beyond it.

    He should schedule a MV for late 28 October. Make it a free vote on whatever the status of the deal is by then. Get agreement from Gaukeward now for no extensions.

    Pressure is then on his opponents.

    No its not. By then it would be too late to do anything. They would just say so and point at Boris and say "What is coming is entirely your fault."
    He would say “I’ve heard the concerns , No one wants no deal. So on 28 October we have one chance to avert it. I call on the EU and opposition to come together to get a deal over the line. I offer a free vote. The onus is now on everyone to come together and pass a better deal”.
    No. If you wait until Oct 28th, the only option left is Revoke, because it takes very little time - probably an afternoon and that includes writing the letter and sending a plane over to Brussels to deliver it.
    That could be done in six hours.
  • Ah, the spirit of the Brexiteers:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168550840778379264

    All for one and everybody for himself.

    Definitely Francois or Baker.

    I doubt Francois knows the phrase collateral damage
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    Live from Cabinet:

    "OK team. Welcome. Although I have to say, the draw for the 2019 Cabinet wiff-waff championships seems to have got the media all of a frenzy...."
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Amazing that people are such absolute sheep. I don't have a mobile phone, but if I did, and someone told me I wouldn't be allowed to attend a social event without handing it over, I should find something else to do very quickly. Pitiful.
    Anyone who does that may run afoul of the new Cumming Directive and be deselected ;)
    No doubt. Sheep.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,216

    Tabman said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Hah. Nothing probably tempted him more than Blair railing against the idea on the radio this morning.

    Quite. Does Blair have any self-awareness?
    Perhaps it was reverse psychology. Blair wants an election to purge Labour and/or complete the realignmnet, so says to Corbyn, under no circumstance should we have an election. Corbyn duly complies by asking for one as he does the opposite of what Blair wants.
    To be fair to Blair if he set up a Blair party i would vote for iti!
    Change UK is basically continuity Blairism, and the Lib Dems the closest major party to that as of now.
This discussion has been closed.