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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris Johnson Invites Himself to the Battle of Ipsus

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  • RobD said:
    One for the history books.
    See how the rise of BXP is mirrored exactly by dips in Con support, and vice versa?
    Yes, and if you total them Con+BP=45% or very close to it pretty much every time.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:

    What are you talking about?

    If the VoNC him then they need to either nominate another leader or there has to be an election. There is no alternative.

    They don't need to VoNC him.

    They can vote to make an extension the law, which leaves him in office and out of power.

    The only sanction they will receive is the same one they would have if they VoNCed, which they don't need to do to achieve the same result.
    They could already do that and it would be just a rebellion. Now if they do that they terminate their careers, their actions have consequences.

    They may still choose to do it, so be it, but it reduces not increases the odds of an extension being the law. And if Boris says he will act like Queen Anne and instruct HMQ to veto the law meaning they need to VONC him to achieve their legislation then we're back to square one. But less likely to get their because the threat was already made to their careers.
    Letwin is standing down anyway. He can go out in a blaze of glory fighting to stay in the EU. Some others too perhaps.
    Clarke and Bebb are another two.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Absolutely bonkers. If this is a coup then a) they know nothing of history and b) wait until they see a real one.
    Has anyone actually deigned to ask any of these MPs who strongly assert that they were on the verge of cancelling the recess for the Party conferences, why they didn’t just make things a lot simpler by cancelling (or even shortening!) the six week summer holiday?

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    GIN1138 said:

    People still going on about coops...

    The chickens are coming home to roost.

    Pause.

    Don't worry: it's alright to hate me... :)

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited August 2019

    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:

    What are you talking about?

    If the VoNC him then they need to either nominate another leader or there has to be an election. There is no alternative.

    They don't need to VoNC him.

    They can vote to make an extension the law, which leaves him in office and out of power.

    The only sanction they will receive is the same one they would have if they VoNCed, which they don't need to do to achieve the same result.
    They could already do that and it would be just a rebellion. Now if they do that they terminate their careers, their actions have consequences.

    They may still choose to do it, so be it, but it reduces not increases the odds of an extension being the law. And if Boris says he will act like Queen Anne and instruct HMQ to veto the law meaning they need to VONC him to achieve their legislation then we're back to square one. But less likely to get their because the threat was already made to their careers.
    Letwin is standing down anyway. He can go out in a blaze of glory fighting to stay in the EU. Some others too perhaps.
    Maybe but peerage's are very attractive, sadly
    Likely to get one later anyway.
  • nichomar said:

    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    What are you talking about?

    If the VoNC him then they need to either nominate another leader or there has to be an election. There is no alternative.

    They don't need to VoNC him.

    They can vote to make an extension the law, which leaves him in office and out of power.

    The only sanction they will receive is the same one they would have if they VoNCed, which they don't need to do to achieve the same result.
    They could already do that and it would be just a rebellion. Now if they do that they terminate their careers, their actions have consequences.

    They may still choose to do it, so be it, but it reduces not increases the odds of an extension being the law. And if Boris says he will act like Queen Anne and instruct HMQ to veto the law meaning they need to VONC him to achieve their legislation then we're back to square one. But less likely to get their because the threat was already made to their careers.
    The idea that the Queen is going to refuse royal assent for a bill passed by Parliament is for the birds IMO.
    You can’t be serious? If that happens I think this weekends very polite and positive demonstrations may notch up a degree. Leave wanted to take back control but I wonder who they wanted to gain that control it’s obviously not parliament
    You're right not this Parliament. I wanted voters to gain control.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Scott_P said:
    If they paid for that cartoon, they were robbed......
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    viewcode said:

    GIN1138 said:

    People still going on about coops...

    The chickens are coming home to roost.
    Or perhaps to roust.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Scott_P said:
    Thanks for providing some much needed entertainment

  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    RobD said:
    One for the history books.
    See how the rise of BXP is mirrored exactly by dips in Con support, and vice versa?
    Yes, and if you total them Con+BP=45% or very close to it pretty much every time.
    Not really - at least 8% of that BP vote will never vote Tory.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Harrington is also now standing down.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    algarkirk said:

    Good article. But will the anti-Boris people find a cunning plan which is pro something instead of against something?

    Labour's policy is to negotiate a different deal based on different red lines and put it to the electorate in a referendum. To get there they want to legislate to prevent no deal and hold a general election that they want to win so they are in a position to negotiate a different deal. This plan is not particularly cunning but it is definitely one with its own defined objective and is not simply about saying no.
    aha - so they get this great deal and then at a referendum campaign against it?

    And of course the EU will negotiate a great deal with a counter party that will recommend against its acceptance.

    Do you realise how stupid that looks?
    I did say it wasn't a very cunning plan! To be fair it is not clear what side if any Labour will take in the referendum. I think it is reasonable to give the public a final say on the deal once we know what it looks like, and I believe there is majority support in polls for that referendum to take place. So it's a reasonable position for them to take.
    For a long time Labour did not have a coherent position but a lot of people seem reluctant to accept that they have now arrived at a plan of sorts. It certainly is not as stupid as the current government's approach, and it is far from the truth to claim that the party is simply saying no to everything, as many people here keep saying.
    Give me a break - several times they have said they will recommend remaining.

    Explain to me how this puts Labour in a better position to negotiate than the tories?
  • eek said:

    RobD said:
    One for the history books.
    See how the rise of BXP is mirrored exactly by dips in Con support, and vice versa?
    Yes, and if you total them Con+BP=45% or very close to it pretty much every time.
    Not really - at least 8% of that BP vote will never vote Tory.
    Yes really it was a mathematic equation and pretty accurate.

    It doesn't mean BXP will go to zero and Tories will go to 45. It is possible but not certain that BXP could go to 5 and Tories go to 40.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    Classical allusions are always welcome on PB but I’m not sure that this one works. Boris wants his opponents to come together, he wants an early VoNC, he wants an election which will get rid of the ridiculous Cucks, several of his own awkward squad and commit the rest irrevocably to government policy. Fighting the idiot Corbyn and a divided opposition is just a very useful bonus. In short, unlike Antigonus he actually wants to lose this battle to win the war.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Because they are basically fucking ignorant.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Coups me thinks
  • GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Aldis and Lidls :lol:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Coups me thinks
    Depends if you are talking chickens......
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited August 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Coups me thinks
    #StopTheCoops was trending on Twitter the other day so that's what we're going with. :D
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    The currency of outrage has been seriously debased this week.

    Bad moaning drives out good moaning......
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Coups me thinks
    #StopTheCoops was trending on Twitter the other day so that's what we're going with. :D
    #UpTheAldis

    #ComeOnYouLidls

    :lol:
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.
  • The currency of outrage has been seriously debased this week.

    Bad moaning drives out good moaning......

    Good Moaning!

    I brung you a massage: I was bruising the throds and noticed that Buris Johnson has gone and prerogued Perliament!
  • The multi dimensional chess game in Scotland is impossible to read. My guess is the Scottish courts will stop the implementation of no deal Brexit in Scotland without Scottish government support this week. This will set up a showdown with Boris. He will have to decide if to ditch Scotland or a hard brexit.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    The currency of outrage has been seriously debased this week.

    Bad moaning drives out good moaning......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNVU5ZjlgA
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865
    justin124 said:

    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.

    On the contrary. At the moment even if he wins he loses because he will not have an effective majority and people like Grieve are blocking the election of his supporters in highly winnable seats. He wants a majority that he can actually rely upon. He may not get it of course.
  • To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines
  • eek said:

    RobD said:
    One for the history books.
    See how the rise of BXP is mirrored exactly by dips in Con support, and vice versa?
    Yes, and if you total them Con+BP=45% or very close to it pretty much every time.
    Not really - at least 8% of that BP vote will never vote Tory.
    There a misunderstanding here.

    I was just pointing out an arithmetic fact. I wasn't suggesting that BP votes could be automatically be assumed to transfer to Con, or vice versa.

    I agree with you. Some BP supporters would never vote Tory. Not sure how many, but definitely a significant number.

    OK?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    I like #Selfservative though. Where do I queue to join that party?
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
  • Tabman said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
    Some do but millions don't
  • The multi dimensional chess game in Scotland is impossible to read. My guess is the Scottish courts will stop the implementation of no deal Brexit in Scotland without Scottish government support this week. This will set up a showdown with Boris. He will have to decide if to ditch Scotland or a hard brexit.

    I really don't understand your argument.

    The Scottish Government has devolved powers that do not include foreign affairs. The 2016 referendum was a UK-wide exercise. The UK government is acting within UK parliamentary conventions - people may not like that but I see no evidence of a breach of the law here. The UK parliament has the right to stop Boris through a VONC. The Scottish Government is a spectator. If they want to stop it then the SNP has to get Labour to table that VONC and get it over the line. That's it.
  • The multi dimensional chess game in Scotland is impossible to read. My guess is the Scottish courts will stop the implementation of no deal Brexit in Scotland without Scottish government support this week. This will set up a showdown with Boris. He will have to decide if to ditch Scotland or a hard brexit.

    Whatever happens it won't be this Mr Scandavian Scotland
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
    Some do but millions don't
    What's that quote about democracy and meeting the average voter?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    I think you are right. But it's a message that only lasts until 31st October.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    justin124 said:

    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.

    I think you underestimate how many of the electorate think along the lines of "If I don't do my job, or am crap at work, or play silly buggers, I get fired. These MPs have been playing silly buggers for years and deserve to be fired."
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:
    That's ... brave ... Archbishop. Whinging Remoaners are probably the majority of his rapidly dwindling congregation.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,129
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:
    I thought Corbynistas wanted an election? Not sure how mason logic follows of being a coward by ignoring 100k people to give 40 million a chance to vote.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,865

    The multi dimensional chess game in Scotland is impossible to read. My guess is the Scottish courts will stop the implementation of no deal Brexit in Scotland without Scottish government support this week. This will set up a showdown with Boris. He will have to decide if to ditch Scotland or a hard brexit.

    I honestly think that it is vanishingly unlikely that Lord Doherty will grant an order in this petition. He carefully did not express a view on whether the petitioners had a prima facie case but he couldn’t resist a comment that it is not a strong one. He will refuse the petition. What happens on appeal is more difficult to predict but by that time Parliament will have had the chance to have a VoNC in the government. If they lose or duck that option that will have a bearing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    HYUFD said:
    I hope the returning officers know there might be an election next weekend. :p
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,129
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1167896020073644043?s=20

    You dont need to be mystic meg to see a GE is nailed on.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    kyf_100 said:

    justin124 said:

    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.

    I think you underestimate how many of the electorate think along the lines of "If I don't do my job, or am crap at work, or play silly buggers, I get fired. These MPs have been playing silly buggers for years and deserve to be fired."
    They're wrong. It's precisely because MPs HAVE been doing their job that they've stopped the coming calamity up to this point.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:
    I hope the returning officers know there might be an election next weekend. :p
    Election campaign he means I think
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,152
    edited August 2019
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:
    That's ... brave ... Archbishop. Whinging Remoaners are probably the majority of his rapidly dwindling congregation.
    No most of 66% of Anglicans voted Leave, it is most of his clergy who are Remoaners

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/20/how-anglicans-tipped-the-brexit-vote/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    alex. said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    People still going on about coops and dictators! :D
    Absolutely bonkers. If this is a coup then a) they know nothing of history and b) wait until they see a real one.
    Has anyone actually deigned to ask any of these MPs who strongly assert that they were on the verge of cancelling the recess for the Party conferences, why they didn’t just make things a lot simpler by cancelling (or even shortening!) the six week summer holiday?

    Because MPs are [redacted][redacted]redacted][verybadword][redacted] who couldn't find their own couch in their living room.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Tabman said:

    kyf_100 said:

    justin124 said:

    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.

    I think you underestimate how many of the electorate think along the lines of "If I don't do my job, or am crap at work, or play silly buggers, I get fired. These MPs have been playing silly buggers for years and deserve to be fired."
    They're wrong. It's precisely because MPs HAVE been doing their job that they've stopped the coming calamity up to this point.
    Voting for the WA would be calamity?
  • Scott_P said:
    Its cut productivity because of all of those moronic Remoaners spending all their time whining about Brexit instead of getting on and doing their jobs.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490
    edited August 2019
    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:
    That's ... brave ... Archbishop. Whinging Remoaners are probably the majority of his rapidly dwindling congregation.
    Good, let's hope they listen to what they're told from the pulpit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Scott_P said:
    Its cut productivity because of all of those moronic Remoaners spending all their time whining about Brexit instead of getting on and doing their jobs.
    Such mature analysis from you, Richard.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    RobD said:

    Tabman said:

    kyf_100 said:

    justin124 said:

    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.

    I think you underestimate how many of the electorate think along the lines of "If I don't do my job, or am crap at work, or play silly buggers, I get fired. These MPs have been playing silly buggers for years and deserve to be fired."
    They're wrong. It's precisely because MPs HAVE been doing their job that they've stopped the coming calamity up to this point.
    Voting for the WA would be calamity?
    Ask Boris Johnson about that. He's prime minister.
  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Its cut productivity because of all of those moronic Remoaners spending all their time whining about Brexit instead of getting on and doing their jobs.
    Such mature analysis from you, Richard.
    Just enjoying getting a few digs in at the whining maggots.
  • I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,129
    edited August 2019

    I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    IMO, that has been the plan all along.
  • HYUFD said:
    I thought Corbynistas wanted an election? Not sure how mason logic follows of being a coward by ignoring 100k people to give 40 million a chance to vote.
    "Bring 'em on! I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!"
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    HYUFD said:

    Tabman said:

    HYUFD said:
    That's ... brave ... Archbishop. Whinging Remoaners are probably the majority of his rapidly dwindling congregation.
    No most of 66% of Anglicans voted Leave, it is most of his clergy who are Remoaners

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/20/how-anglicans-tipped-the-brexit-vote/
    Nonetheless his congregation is rapidly dwindling, and the younger generations won't be joining it at this rate.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1167853008341872640

    Nandy is proving to be a mature politician.

    She promised to (or was “considering to”) vote for the WA 3 times and didn’t actually vote for it once

    Forgive me if I don’t trust her
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    The currency of outrage has been seriously debased this week.

    Bad moaning drives out good moaning......

    Surely only mimicing the the tone set by the "crushing the sabateurs" and "enemies of the people" stuff the leavers were spouting months ago.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    I cannot believe it would be very good for Johnson to have 20 deselected Tory MPs openly advocating during an election campaign that he not be supported and was unfit for PM.Hestletine and others would be likely to reinforce that message.

    On the contrary. At the moment even if he wins he loses because he will not have an effective majority and people like Grieve are blocking the election of his supporters in highly winnable seats. He wants a majority that he can actually rely upon. He may not get it of course.
    But if people such as Hestletine - and maybe Clarke - appear on our TV screens during the campaign saying ' Don't vote for this guy, He is dangerous and not to be trusted!' , the effect on Tory vote share is unlikely to be positive.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    Its cut productivity because of all of those moronic Remoaners spending all their time whining about Brexit instead of getting on and doing their jobs.
    Such mature analysis from you, Richard.
    It does answer the one thing the Treasury got substantially wrong in its controversial short term predictions: If GDP falls relative to the base case, why didn't employment fall with it? The reason is that productivity fell instead.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited August 2019

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1167853008341872640

    Nandy is proving to be a mature politician.

    No she isn't. She rejected an orderly Brexit repeatedly so demonstrably would not do anything to avoid a no deal. What she is proving is she wants to appear a mature politician, one who speaks of compromise without backing up her words with actions. At least those who say extreme things and follow them through are being consistent in approach, and their self righteousness can be honest even if they are wrong.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    RobD said:

    nichomar said:



    matt said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1167853008341872640

    Nandy is proving to be a mature politician.

    She had three opportunities to vote for an orderly Brexit. Each time she voted no.
    Quite. If mature now means vote according to the party line and cry crocodile tears afterwards then there are a large number of mature MPs out there. That opinion may be a brave one.

    Why should anybody vote for a Tory brexit. You all fail to accept that the government is a conservative one with DUP c&s they have the majority in parliament. It is their responsibility to vote for the governments policy. If they don’t then it has absolutely nothing to do with anybody else for their failure. Oppositions oppose, governments propose legislation that they are supposed to know can attract a majority. No matter how you spin it blame lies solely with the ERG, DUP and the rest of the Conservative party. Time to let the eat their own shit
    Which part of the WA would Labour change? That's the only bit that matters. The PD is just window dressing.
    According to TheJezziah the PD is the only party they even want to change, so none of the WA need be changed.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    That is why MPs need to remove Boris from office. It kills No Deal. Faffing about with legislation just plays into johnsons/cummings hands. The nuclear option is the only option...
  • Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    Boris really wants his election, if only Tory rebels will oblige him. I hope he is not rewarded for it, but he might.
  • I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    That is why MPs need to remove Boris from office. It kills No Deal. Faffing about with legislation just plays into johnsons/cummings hands. The nuclear option is the only option...
    And the nuclear option is a GE
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
    Tories +DUP had a majority to pass it. It was their policy. They didn't. It's their failure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Tabman said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
    Yes, but it is also the end of an important phase. Does nobody understand that whenever they moan about it being the start not the end? When people claim the people want it stopped (personally I am not convinced of that, people may say that but then reject ways to stop it, one way or another) that doesn't mean that people don't know there is plenty that will come after.
  • Tabman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
    Tories +DUP had a majority to pass it. It was their policy. They didn't. It's their failure.
    Of course it is not.

    It was of national importance and 40 or so labour mps have since indicated they would support it
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    kle4 said:

    Tabman said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
    Yes, but it is also the end of an important phase. Does nobody understand that whenever they moan about it being the start not the end? When people claim the people want it stopped (personally I am not convinced of that, people may say that but then reject ways to stop it, one way or another) that doesn't mean that people don't know there is plenty that will come after.
    I heard a caller to the AQ phone in state we should leave w/o a deal, then rejoin next year if we didn't like it.

    I kid you not.
  • I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    That is why MPs need to remove Boris from office. It kills No Deal. Faffing about with legislation just plays into johnsons/cummings hands. The nuclear option is the only option...
    Where do you think Boris is going to go if he's brought down by an unsustainable and absurd rainbow coalition of losers?

    It doesn't kill No Deal. Boris will still be there, as LOTO and representing over 300 MPs in the Commons. He will still be there at the ensuing General Election needing only a handful of gains to gain a majority.

    In fact merely holding all seats won in 2017 will be enough as the bastards who brought him down from his own side will be replaced by those willing to enact the manifesto.
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046

    Tabman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
    Tories +DUP had a majority to pass it. It was their policy. They didn't. It's their failure.
    Of course it is not.

    It was of national importance and 40 or so labour mps have since indicated they would support it
    Do the Tories and the DUP have a majority? Yes

    Did they have a bigger majority before WA1? Yes

    Their failure.
  • Tabman said:

    kle4 said:

    Tabman said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
    Yes, but it is also the end of an important phase. Does nobody understand that whenever they moan about it being the start not the end? When people claim the people want it stopped (personally I am not convinced of that, people may say that but then reject ways to stop it, one way or another) that doesn't mean that people don't know there is plenty that will come after.
    I heard a caller to the AQ phone in state we should leave w/o a deal, then rejoin next year if we didn't like it.

    I kid you not.
    Perfectly reasonable and democratic. Better than trying to frustrate leaving.

    Remainers should have become Rejoiners after the referendum rather than trying to frustrate Brexit.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    HYUFD said:
    As predicted 9 hours ago on the previous thread.........



    On that timetable, I would expect the Government to announce its intention on Thursday to schedule a general election (by the 2/3rds route) in order for the debate and vote to be scheduled on Friday, the date of the election being scheduled for the beginning of November.

    Friday's parliamentary business would then be scuppered.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Tabman said:

    kle4 said:

    Tabman said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    But LEAVING IS THE START not the end.

    Does nobody understand this????
    Yes, but it is also the end of an important phase. Does nobody understand that whenever they moan about it being the start not the end? When people claim the people want it stopped (personally I am not convinced of that, people may say that but then reject ways to stop it, one way or another) that doesn't mean that people don't know there is plenty that will come after.
    I heard a caller to the AQ phone in state we should leave w/o a deal, then rejoin next year if we didn't like it.

    I kid you not.
    Yes there will be plenty of people who are very confused about things. Heck, we obsessives get confused about things. But many many people will say they just want 'this' to be resolved, and that does not mean that most of them are not aware that, say, leaving in any fashion will not be the end of any Brexit related things.
  • Tabman said:

    Tabman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
    Tories +DUP had a majority to pass it. It was their policy. They didn't. It's their failure.
    Of course it is not.

    It was of national importance and 40 or so labour mps have since indicated they would support it
    Do the Tories and the DUP have a majority? Yes

    Did they have a bigger majority before WA1? Yes

    Their failure.
    Nope.

    May's deal wasn't a Tory+DUP deal. And all MPs in Parliament are responsible for how they vote not just government MPs.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    That is why MPs need to remove Boris from office. It kills No Deal. Faffing about with legislation just plays into johnsons/cummings hands. The nuclear option is the only option...
    And the nuclear option is a GE

    I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    That is why MPs need to remove Boris from office. It kills No Deal. Faffing about with legislation just plays into johnsons/cummings hands. The nuclear option is the only option...
    And the nuclear option is a GE
    No. The GE is what Boris wants on his terms. Removing Boris from office is the nuclear option. Boris cannot have a No Deal election on his terms. Instead of Boris screwing us with No Deal. MPs will have screwed Johnson! :wink:
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I've just had a brush with the Yoonsphere on Twitter.

    Apparently one of their 'things' is solely referring to Nicola Sturgeon as Mrs Murrell. Completely normal people.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    Scott_P said:
    Its cut productivity because of all of those moronic Remoaners spending all their time whining about Brexit instead of getting on and doing their jobs.
    Leavers have no productivity to cut.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    I am beginning to think that if Boris nee Cummings frames this as a remain parliament obstructing the vote and he has no choice but to call a GE to put democracy and the people first v the HOC, the elite, HOL and the EU he could just win

    That is why MPs need to remove Boris from office. It kills No Deal. Faffing about with legislation just plays into johnsons/cummings hands. The nuclear option is the only option...
    Where do you think Boris is going to go if he's brought down by an unsustainable and absurd rainbow coalition of losers?

    It doesn't kill No Deal. Boris will still be there, as LOTO and representing over 300 MPs in the Commons. He will still be there at the ensuing General Election needing only a handful of gains to gain a majority.

    In fact merely holding all seats won in 2017 will be enough as the bastards who brought him down from his own side will be replaced by those willing to enact the manifesto.
    This is an important point to make. I think Boris should be brought down, and I hope no deal will be avoided, but as you say that is not guaranteed just by MPs taking Boris down, and in fact could risk the opposite. But I do think no deal is very likely if they don't try to do it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
    Of course the deal should have been agreed. MPs were bloody stupid not to vote for it. But those voters who now want Brexit regardless on 31 October should be prepared to accept the consequences personally, not expect others to pay the price.
  • Cyclefree said:

    To be honest there are so many utterly barmy things being said and tweeted there is little doubt the whole country has gone round the bend

    At least with those political geeks repetitively fighting their own unyielding corner

    However, I have news for them, the vast majority are not into the detail but they are wanting this stopped. Arguing over further extensions ( which I agree with ) is not winning the public battle, as seen in the polls and is ironically strengthening Boris nee Cummings

    Boris has a clear message we are out on the 31st October and that is what people want to hear and frankly they do not care too much for the consequences. I have several anecdotes along these lines

    That’s all absolutely fine and I hope those people will be the first to volunteer to accept personally the consequences of a disorderly Brexit, not just in the immediate aftermath but for as long as necessary.

    It is not fine though is it. It is a complete breakdown of all of our politicians

    TM had the deal and it should have been agreed
    TM's deal was awful and thankfully enough Tory MP's and DUP put country before party and blocked it.

    Surprisingly, or not, enough opposition MPs put party before what they claim is good for the country and blocked it too. So we are where we are.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Boris will still be there, as LOTO and representing over 300 MPs in the Commons. He will still be there at the ensuing General Election needing only a handful of gains to gain a majority.

    He said he would do or die, and he didn't do.

    If the ERG don't oust him, Nigel Fucking Farage has promised to stand a candidate in every constituency which would completely destroy the Tories in an election.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Just for a bit of fun. My predictions for the coming weeks...

    Brexiters: Endgame
    https://www.lifestuff.xyz/blog/brexit-endgame

    I hope!

    That’s pretty much my unicorn 😊
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912
    Scott_P said:
    "What are you gonna do, stab me?"

    — Quote from man stabbed
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    HYUFD said:
    Anyone else sick of Old Etonians telling them what to do?
This discussion has been closed.