"Just to be clear, when I posted the comment about Corbyn being unwell I …"
It doesn't matter. You'll remember those old pictures of the Politburo, very old men with rictus grins (as patented by Gordon) shuffling around, the smell of formalin strong in the air.
At what point to TBP become value to lay for the EU elections? I know the Locals had a big backlash against the establishment, Farage is a great campaigner, and TBP leads by a few % in the polls. But 1/10? I'm not sure I don't like that for a nibble against. Aside from anything else, Farage's parties have a habit of imploding due to internal divisions. There's got to be a chance of something cropping up in the next fortnight. Or what if Labour just does a bit better than we expect? Poll lead isn't that big.
A broad lesson from the first referendum should be to only offer the public a referendum advocating change that is supported by the government. Offering them something the government is against creates a legitimacy conflict between the GE vote and the referendum vote.
If we had a binding referendum and no deal wins, what on earth does that mean in practice? After we have left can parliament never do any deals with the EU? Do they have to wait a month, six months, six years, forever? Chances are parliament would seek to do a deal or series of deals, soon after leaving creating yet more betrayal narrative.
MPs have a job to do and mandate to do so, just as a referendum gives a mandate. Having the two conflicting is bad for the country, so only changes the govt support should go forward to a referendum.
> @Big_G_NorthWales said: > The venom from the likes of Bill Cash demanding TM resigns sums up the blinkers ERG have in so far as they have no alternatives that could change anything, and you do wonder just how many conservative mps want TM out just now and as Sky has just commented there does not seem to be a big move by the public against TM as the public think she is doing the best she can
The MPs I'm confused by are the ones who voted to keep her in December but now want rid of her. Just what exactly did they think was going to happen?
Like the nobles who bottled toppling Richard II when they had the chance, the vindictive sod ended up hanging around for ages, and doing many of them in.
> @OblitusSumMe said: > I suppose the thing is that FPTP is more brutal at Commons constituency level then at local council ward level. Even with a shit leadership, Labour can still win the next general election if the public are more desperate to rid themselves of the Tories. > > Many seats will be won with a lower share of the vote than lost the seat in 2017.
FPTP comes up far quirkier results in local elections. It's not all unusual for a party to win a council, despite coming second in terms of vote share.
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @Sandpit said: > > https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1126005084222033920 > > > > > > > > So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question. > > A broad lesson from the first referendum should be to only offer the public a referendum advocating change that is supported by the government. Offering them something the government is against creates a legitimacy conflict between the GE vote and the referendum vote. > > If we had a binding referendum and no deal wins, what on earth does that mean in practice? After we have left can parliament never do any deals with the EU? Do they have to wait a month, six months, six years, forever? Chances are parliament would seek to do a deal or series of deals, soon after leaving creating yet more betrayal narrative. > > MPs have a job to do and mandate to do so, just as a referendum gives a mandate. Having the two conflicting is bad for the country, so only changes the govt support should go forward to a referendum.
The Welsh seem to have changed their minds. Not too surprising. I saw some Welsh farmers on Country file explaining how they'd be much worse off out of the EU. 'Which way did you vote in the Referendum' they were asked. 'We voted Brexit'. 'Why?' they were asked. 'Dunno really'
> @Cyclefree said: > But also some good news: > > Asia Bibi: Christian leaves Pakistan after blasphemy acquittal > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48198340 > > Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so. > > Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
The problem with this article and several of the comments is that it compares an unsatisfactory present with a hypothetical alternative reality ("If X were leader, Labour would be Y% ahead"). In practice, as we've repeatedly seen, all Labour leaders are besieged by media attempts to portray them as extreme, stupid, bumbling, out of touch, or any combination of those. It usually works - only Tony Blair in recent memory was able to ride it out successfully. Miliband "was an out of touch North London intellectual - can't even eat a bacon sandwich properly". Brown was "a domineering spendthrift", Smith was "a reckless supporter of high taxation", Kinnock was "a Welsh windbag", etc. We all have weaknesses and the media and now social media are adept at highlighting them.
Labour has structural difficulties that would not be solved by replacing Corbyn with, say, Watson. Are we socialists (wanting to change from capitalism) or social democrats (wanting to run capitalism humanely)? Are we Remainers or Leavers or don't we really care? Are we idealistic middle-class intellectuals or hard-headed working-class champions? Are we rooted in the north or the south? What is our Scottish appeal?
What Corbyn has going for him is that he reflects what most members want (unlike Tony), is genuinely liked by most people who know him well (unlike Gordon), and has an utterly loyal inner circle (unlike every leader of either major party in recent memory). These are not negligible assets, and should not be discarded lightly.
Some rewriting of history there. Blair had the support of Labour members and reflected what they - and the country wanted - hence three election victories in a row.
Corbyn’s loyal inner circle consists of people who have had little demonstrable record of any sort of loyalty to Labour (Andrew Murray, for instance). The fact that the loyalty is to the leader is one reason why Labour has been so inept in its response to the anti-semitism issue. Protecting the leader has become more important than the party or its values. For a leader to consider himself more important than the party he serves is dangerous.
Not sure if I need mind bleach (or whether you might need some after reading this!), but I actually dreamt about going to a Brexit Party meeting! I dreamt that I met Farage, and he said something on the lines of the chocolate treats on offer to attendees were sponsored by Swiss company Lindt, and that I surreptitiously helped myself to quite a few.
But I woke up before we got onto major policy announcements!
Please note, readers, that I'm NOT a member or fanboy of the Brexit Party, or any other political party!
> Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
> Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
At what point to TBP become value to lay for the EU elections? I know the Locals had a big backlash against the establishment, Farage is a great campaigner, and TBP leads by a few % in the polls. But 1/10? I'm not sure I don't like that for a nibble against. Aside from anything else, Farage's parties have a habit of imploding due to internal divisions. There's got to be a chance of something cropping up in the next fortnight. Or what if Labour just does a bit better than we expect? Poll lead isn't that big.
Betting against opinion polls at 1/8 can’t be that bad an idea
> @Sandpit said: > So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question.
Right, at least it means she can't do AV, because her deal immediately gets eliminated. I think there's a good argument that this is a failure of AV not a failure of her deal, because it's eliminating the option that the most people could kind-of live with.
Her best bet if she wants No-Deal on the ballot paper is probably to do two rounds, 1) What is Brexit? Deal vs No-Deal 2) Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it? [Winner of 1] vs Remain
That gives Deal a fighting chance in Round 1, because Remainiacs also get a say in which of the Brexits they'll get in the event that they lose Round 2. On balance I think No-Deal still probably wins the first round since TMay-Barnier doesn't really set the heart racing and a lot of voters would sit it out, but it could go either way.
> @TheScreamingEagles said: > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May. > > The Champions League final coincides with the start of my stint as editor of PB, that weekend you’re getting a lot of written well in advance threads on AV and electoral reform.
hope the celebrations keep rolling
odd to think Liverpool now have an outside chance of doing a double if BHA can rise to the occasion
Our asylum laws are catch 22. Broadly: you can only apply for asylum in the country, but if you are in the country then you are not eligible as you entered illegally.
Allowing asylum applications to the persecuted overseas would be an interesting precedent.
PM needs the confidence of parliament last time I checked, far from certain Boris would have it, particularly if he positions himself as a no deal candidate. (Guess he will be a unicorn candidate instead to try and keep things together a few months longer).
> Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
An ally that harboured Bin Laden for many years. Some ally. Pakistan is utterly two-faced in its approach to Islamist terrorism; talks a good game when it has to but nurtures and funds groups which give that terrorism legs and provides space and support for the ideology behind it. It is little better than Saudi Arabia in this regard and we should sup with both countries with a very long spoon indeed.
> @edmundintokyo said: > > @Sandpit said: > > So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question. > > Right, at least it means she can't do AV, because her deal immediately gets eliminated. I think there's a good argument that this is a failure of AV not a failure of her deal, because it's eliminating the option that the most people could kind-of live with. > > Her best bet if she wants No-Deal on the ballot paper is probably to do two rounds, > 1) What is Brexit? Deal vs No-Deal > 2) Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it? [Winner of 1] vs Remain > > That gives Deal a fighting chance in Round 1, because Remainiacs also get a say in which of the Brexits they'll get in the event that they lose Round 2. On balance I think No-Deal still probably wins the first round since TMay-Barnier doesn't really set the heart racing and a lot of voters would sit it out, but it could go either way.
The referendum that is consistent with her viewpoint would be:
1) TM deal 2) Extend for 12 months, with a GE in between
> Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
Major non-NATO ally is a boon that is the exclusive gift of the US and Argentina is very important and long standing ally of the US Navy. Argentina are one of only two countries (the other being France) whose aircraft are regularly permitted to cross deck with USN CVNs.
On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > But also some good news: > > > > > > Asia Bibi: Christian leaves Pakistan after blasphemy acquittal > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48198340 > > > > > > Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so. > > > > > > Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why? > > > > I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid. > > Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka. > > Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
Traditionally India was closer to the Soviet Union. When in doubt, look for a cold war explanation.
> > So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question.
>
> Right, at least it means she can't do AV, because her deal immediately gets eliminated. I think there's a good argument that this is a failure of AV not a failure of her deal, because it's eliminating the option that the most people could kind-of live with.
>
> Her best bet if she wants No-Deal on the ballot paper is probably to do two rounds,
> 1) What is Brexit? Deal vs No-Deal
> 2) Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it? [Winner of 1] vs Remain
>
> That gives Deal a fighting chance in Round 1, because Remainiacs also get a say in which of the Brexits they'll get in the event that they lose Round 2. On balance I think No-Deal still probably wins the first round since TMay-Barnier doesn't really set the heart racing and a lot of voters would sit it out, but it could go either way.
The referendum that is consistent with her viewpoint would be:
1) TM deal
2) Extend for 12 months, with a GE in between
That sounds about right for Mrs May, having her deal as the only option - although of course calling an election requires a 2/3 supermajority in the Commons, not sure it could be incorporated into another Bill.
(FTPA, the worst pierce of legislation of the last 100 years. Discuss).
On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg
On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg
Galloway’s way too polarising - I couldn’t vote for him, would you? They would be better off choosing someone well known locally and a non-politician. Tim Martin maybe?
And whoever they choose needs to delete their Twitter account before they’re announced!
> > Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> >
>
> > Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
>
>
>
> I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
>
> Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
>
> Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
Traditionally India was closer to the Soviet Union. When in doubt, look for a cold war explanation.
The Cold War has been over for some time. Islamist terrorism has been - and continues to be - a menace and Pakistan is one of the countries which harbours it. It is not a country which ought to be lavished with foreign aid while behaving in an uncivilised way. If foreign aid is meant to be part of our soft power, what the hell are we getting from it re Pakistan?
The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
The EC would probably allow the following questions .
On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg
I would have thought TBPs chances would improve if Galloway stands against them.
> @Cyclefree said: > Ms Cyclefree, > > > > "And shame on Britain for not doing so." > > > > Totally agree. Inexcusable. > > Apparently Javid and Hunt were for giving her asylum. May overruled them. (And one junior Minister resigned over that decision.) > > We can add this to the list of shit decisions May has been responsible for.
May has a dreadful record on asylum and immigration. How she has the nerve to put her head into a Christian church I don't know.
The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
The EC would probably allow the following questions .
Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
Remain in the EU .
The No Deal option, according to some, means not paying the money we owe to the EU. Why would the EU agree to this being an option when they have already made it clear that they would pursue Britain for the money owed?
If No Deal is an option then the consequences of what a No Deal exit means have to be spelt out because it is not a positive option but an absence of what there was before. So we need to be told which rights, treaties, laws will no longer be in place.
> @nico67 said: > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain. > > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over . > > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref . > > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance . > > The EC would probably allow the following questions . > > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement . > > Remain in the EU .
But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean?
On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
> @dr_spyn said: > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
If foreign aid is meant to be part of our soft power, what the hell are we getting from it re Pakistan?
The UK is getting nothing in particular but they are keeping "The Boulevard" open to US military air traffic over the west of Pakistan which is very important as the project of bringing freedom and democracy to Afghanistan enters its 17th year.
> @Cyclefree said: > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain. > > > > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over . > > > > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref . > > > > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance . > > > > The EC would probably allow the following questions . > > > > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement . > > > > Remain in the EU . > > The No Deal option, according to some, means not paying the money we owe to the EU. Why would the EU agree to this being an option when they have already made it clear that they would pursue Britain for the money owed? > > If No Deal is an option then the consequences of what a No Deal exit means have to be spelt out because it is not a positive option but an absence of what there was before. So we need to be told which rights, treaties, laws will no longer be in place.
Leavers will have to spell out what that means . No sane country would normally put that option on a ballot but unless you have that option we’ll never hear the end of the betrayal narrative .
Mark Field is the Minister for Asia and the Pacific but he's also double jobbing as Middle East Minister, a most shameful dereliction of duty by Mrs May.
> > Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> >
>
> > Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
>
>
>
> I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
>
> Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
>
> Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
Traditionally India was closer to the Soviet Union. When in doubt, look for a cold war explanation.
No, there was a more nuanced relationship:
During John F. Kennedy's Presidency (1961–63), India was considered a strategic partner and counterweight to the rise of Communist China. [..] The Kennedy administration openly supported India during the 1962 Sino-Indian war and considered the Chinese action as "blatant Chinese Communist aggression against India".[35][36] The United States Air Force flew in arms, ammunition and clothing supplies to the Indian troops
Fast-forwarding to the present day:
On 27 March 2019, India and the US signed an agreement to "strengthen bilateral security and civil nuclear cooperation" including the construction of six American nuclear reactors in India.[220]
> @isam said: > On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list. > > Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg
I think Galloway is more risk than reward. Potentially he can appeal to Labour voters, but he's got a lot of personal baggage and a history of very iffy actions under media pressure. He would draw more focus to the campaign which is good, but he could easily make it about him and not the message and personally I don't think that's worth the risk. The campaign will get plenty of coverage anyway.
> The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
>
> It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
>
> If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
>
> As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
>
> The EC would probably allow the following questions .
>
> Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
>
> Remain in the EU .
But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean?
On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
The EU have said no. And as we would be a third country by then there is no legal mechanism for doing so. Plus it would be a nonsense since it is a transitional agreement to keep things as they are. By leaving without such a deal, things would no longer be as they are. It would be a mess and if the UK was responsible for such a mess any request to the EU for help from them to get out of the mess would have its price.
Behaving like this is utterly destructive. It will seriously weaken our reputation for good governance and reliability far beyond the EU. For politicians to seriously advocate this while also saying that Britain can then have a great global future simply shows how untethered to the real world they are.
> @kinabalu said: > > @dr_spyn said: > > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May. > > Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy. > > The People's Game.
Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
> @Sunil_Prasannan said: > Not sure if I need mind bleach (or whether you might need some after reading this!), but I actually dreamt about going to a Brexit Party meeting! I dreamt that I met Farage, and he said something on the lines of the chocolate treats on offer to attendees were sponsored by Swiss company Lindt, and that I surreptitiously helped myself to quite a few. > > But I woke up before we got onto major policy announcements! > > Please note, readers, that I'm NOT a member or fanboy of the Brexit Party, or any other political party!
Bad luck Sunil. Maybe tonight it will be a Change UK meeting and you get to help yourself to the treats their leader offers you...
> @noneoftheabove said: > > @nico67 said: > > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain. > > > > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over . > > > > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref . > > > > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance . > > > > The EC would probably allow the following questions . > > > > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement . > > > > Remain in the EU . > > But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean? > > On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
To get around that you could say leave without the current WA , so in effect specify it’s in relation to what’s currently on the table . This wouldn’t constrain a future PM from doing a different deal .
> > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
>
> Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
>
> The People's Game.
Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option.
Getting tickets will be the bigger problem.
Or just get on a train to Madrid. Eurostar to Paris. Paris to Madrid.
> @nico67 said: > > @noneoftheabove said: > > > @nico67 said: > > > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain. > > > > > > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over . > > > > > > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref . > > > > > > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance . > > > > > > The EC would probably allow the following questions . > > > > > > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement . > > > > > > Remain in the EU . > > > > But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean? > > > > On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster? > > To get around that you could say leave without the current WA , so in effect specify it’s in relation to what’s currently on the table . This wouldn’t constrain a future PM from doing a different deal .
I am sure all the no dealers would never dream of saying betrayal, whats the point of voting, liars, or we could never leave "properly" in that scenario.
A referendum only works when it is supported by the government or clear cut and longstanding in what it means (drive on the left, allow gay marriage, etc).
> @Cyclefree said: > > @kinabalu said: > > > > @dr_spyn said: > > > > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May. > > > > > > Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy. > > > > > > The People's Game. > > > > Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car. > > > > Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option. > > > > Getting tickets will be the bigger problem. > > Or just get on a train to Madrid. Eurostar to Paris. Paris to Madrid.
Or get on a plane to somewhere else in Spain and travel from there by train / coach / hire car / whatever.
> @Quincel said: > > @isam said: > > On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list. > > > > Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg > > I think Galloway is more risk than reward. Potentially he can appeal to Labour voters, but he's got a lot of personal baggage and a history of very iffy actions under media pressure. He would draw more focus to the campaign which is good, but he could easily make it about him and not the message and personally I don't think that's worth the risk. The campaign will get plenty of coverage anyway.
Is he still claiming to be a Muslim? That might have mixed electoral effects.
> Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
The People's Game.
Ryanair to the Costas, then bus to the big city. Sorted!
> @Cyclefree said: > > @nico67 said: > > > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain. > > > > > > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over . > > > > > > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref . > > > > > > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance . > > > > > > The EC would probably allow the following questions . > > > > > > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement . > > > > > > Remain in the EU . > > > > But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean? > > > > On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster? > > The EU have said no. And as we would be a third country by then there is no legal mechanism for doing so. Plus it would be a nonsense since it is a transitional agreement to keep things as they are. By leaving without such a deal, things would no longer be as they are. It would be a mess and if the UK was responsible for such a mess any request to the EU for help from them to get out of the mess would have its price. > > Behaving like this is utterly destructive. It will seriously weaken our reputation for good governance and reliability far beyond the EU. For politicians to seriously advocate this while also saying that Britain can then have a great global future simply shows how untethered to the real world they are.
The mechanism is Article 50. There is nothing in the text that prevents the WA being agreed / ratified after the member has left: the timetable and the WA clauses are distinct and not inherently reliant on each other (except that you can leave early if a WA is already in place (!) ).
> > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
>
> Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
>
> The People's Game.
Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option.
Getting tickets will be the bigger problem.
Or just get on a train to Madrid. Eurostar to Paris. Paris to Madrid.
So the Democrats will be drawing lots to decide who gets to be in which debate:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/442622-dnc-faces-new-debate-minefield >Most of the 22 candidates running for the Democratic nomination appear to have reached the polling or fundraising thresholds to qualify for the first debate, increasing the likelihood the DNC will have to turn to tiebreakers to determine the top 20.
The DNC will announce the official lineup two weeks before the debates, which will be broken into two rounds of up to 10 candidates each on June 26 and 27.
Rather than having an undercard debate of low-polling candidates, like the Republicans had during the 2016 campaign, the DNC will randomly draw to determine which night the candidates appear on stage, injecting uncertainty into a process that will be closely scrutinized by the campaigns.
There are bound to be complaints....<
Many ways in which this could go wrong - and seriously dilutes the exposure of the handful of serious candidates in with any real chance of the nomination.
> @david_herdson said: > > @Cyclefree said: > > > @kinabalu said: > > > > > > @dr_spyn said: > > > > > > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May. > > > > > > > > > > Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy. > > > > > > > > > > The People's Game. > > > > > > > > Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car. > > > > > > > > Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option. > > > > > > > > Getting tickets will be the bigger problem. > > > > Or just get on a train to Madrid. Eurostar to Paris. Paris to Madrid. > > Or get on a plane to somewhere else in Spain and travel from there by train / coach / hire car / whatever.
You can probably get there by train 2nd class return for between £200-£250. Via Paris and Barcelona. With a morning Eurostar you'd reach Barcelona early evening and could either make Madrid by midnight or by lunchtime day 2 with a stopover to wander round Barcelona in your Liverpool kit.
> > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
>
> Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
>
> The People's Game.
Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option.
Getting tickets will be the bigger problem.
I'll just be putting my feet up on the coffee table and watching on the Telly
On topic. That Jeremy Corbyn is not an election winning phenom is hard to argue with and I am not going to even try. However, with the implosion of the Cons, the return of Farage, and the likelihood that the next general election will happen with Brexit not delivered, my reading of the FPTP electoral calculus is that he has a greater than ever chance of becoming PM. It really does look on. There is a touch of the Chauncey Gardiners in how things are playing out for Jeremy. Atoms are colliding in just the precise way required. Number 10 beckons. It's written.
> @david_herdson said: > On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
The answer, for anyone bothered, is that the last Labour leader to make net gains in by-elections was Neil Kinnock. Miliband, Blair and Smith all ended up net zero, and Brown was a loser (Blair was net positive in opposition though but lost 3 seats to the Lib Dems in 2003-6).
The only other post-war Labour leader to make net gains was Gaitskell. Wilson lost a load in government and didn't make up for it against Heath, Callaghan suffered the usual fate of fag-end PMs, and Foot suffered with the SDP split.
Attlee also made net gains across his 20-year long leadership but none of them were after 1939.
British politics is certainly in a terrible mess. In the (almost) words of Bob Dylan "Clowns to the left of me! jokers to the right! Here I am, stuck in the middle with CUK"
British politics is certainly in a terrible mess. In the (almost) words of Bob Dylan "Clowns to the left of me! jokers to the right! Here I am, stuck in the middle with CUK"
British politics is certainly in a terrible mess. In the (almost) words of Bob Dylan "Clowns to the left of me! jokers to the right! Here I am, stuck in the middle with CUK"
‘It shows there is either something fundamentally wrong with the system, or we’ve got a bunch of highly incompetent slovenly MPs who can’t keep to the rules. The rest of the nation would only expect to have to comply in similar circumstances.’ This refers to one Boris Johnson and one Jeremy Corbyn, both who desire to be PM
I don’t know what Liverpool fans are moaning about. I’m travelling to Valencia via Madrid (the opposite must be an option for the Scousers). Trying to get to Baku, on the other hand, might be trickier.
Comments
"Just to be clear, when I posted the comment about Corbyn being unwell I …"
It doesn't matter. You'll remember those old pictures of the Politburo, very old men with rictus grins (as patented by Gordon) shuffling around, the smell of formalin strong in the air.
https://twitter.com/GavinBuckland1/status/1125480214954426368
I'm sure that will go down well in the shires.
> https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1126005084222033920
>
>
>
> So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question.
A broad lesson from the first referendum should be to only offer the public a referendum advocating change that is supported by the government. Offering them something the government is against creates a legitimacy conflict between the GE vote and the referendum vote.
If we had a binding referendum and no deal wins, what on earth does that mean in practice? After we have left can parliament never do any deals with the EU? Do they have to wait a month, six months, six years, forever? Chances are parliament would seek to do a deal or series of deals, soon after leaving creating yet more betrayal narrative.
MPs have a job to do and mandate to do so, just as a referendum gives a mandate. Having the two conflicting is bad for the country, so only changes the govt support should go forward to a referendum.
Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
> The venom from the likes of Bill Cash demanding TM resigns sums up the blinkers ERG have in so far as they have no alternatives that could change anything, and you do wonder just how many conservative mps want TM out just now and as Sky has just commented there does not seem to be a big move by the public against TM as the public think she is doing the best she can
The MPs I'm confused by are the ones who voted to keep her in December but now want rid of her. Just what exactly did they think was going to happen?
Labour = Barcelona
"And shame on Britain for not doing so."
Totally agree. Inexcusable.
Like the nobles who bottled toppling Richard II when they had the chance, the vindictive sod ended up hanging around for ages, and doing many of them in.
> I suppose the thing is that FPTP is more brutal at Commons constituency level then at local council ward level. Even with a shit leadership, Labour can still win the next general election if the public are more desperate to rid themselves of the Tories.
>
> Many seats will be won with a lower share of the vote than lost the seat in 2017.
FPTP comes up far quirkier results in local elections. It's not all unusual for a party to win a council, despite coming second in terms of vote share.
> > @Sandpit said:
> > https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1126005084222033920
> >
> >
> >
> > So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question.
>
> A broad lesson from the first referendum should be to only offer the public a referendum advocating change that is supported by the government. Offering them something the government is against creates a legitimacy conflict between the GE vote and the referendum vote.
>
> If we had a binding referendum and no deal wins, what on earth does that mean in practice? After we have left can parliament never do any deals with the EU? Do they have to wait a month, six months, six years, forever? Chances are parliament would seek to do a deal or series of deals, soon after leaving creating yet more betrayal narrative.
>
> MPs have a job to do and mandate to do so, just as a referendum gives a mandate. Having the two conflicting is bad for the country, so only changes the govt support should go forward to a referendum.
The Welsh seem to have changed their minds. Not too surprising. I saw some Welsh farmers on Country file explaining how they'd be much worse off out of the EU. 'Which way did you vote in the Referendum' they were asked. 'We voted Brexit'. 'Why?' they were asked. 'Dunno really'
> But also some good news:
>
> Asia Bibi: Christian leaves Pakistan after blasphemy acquittal
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48198340
>
> Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
Corbyn’s loyal inner circle consists of people who have had little demonstrable record of any sort of loyalty to Labour (Andrew Murray, for instance). The fact that the loyalty is to the leader is one reason why Labour has been so inept in its response to the anti-semitism issue. Protecting the leader has become more important than the party or its values. For a leader to consider himself more important than the party he serves is dangerous.
But I woke up before we got onto major policy announcements!
Please note, readers, that I'm NOT a member or fanboy of the Brexit Party, or any other political party!
I do like Lindt.
We can add this to the list of shit decisions May has been responsible for.
> https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1126005489949650944
Is that the question? Aren't the final two chosen by fptp?
https://twitter.com/tongs_ya_bass/status/1126031752965820417
157 is the number needed to VONC May, and BoZo is the presumptive result, so unless 157 want BoZo more than May, she stays.
> Tories = Liverpool
> Labour = Barcelona
Tories = Man City
Labour = Man United
Lib Dems = Norwich
> So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question.
Right, at least it means she can't do AV, because her deal immediately gets eliminated. I think there's a good argument that this is a failure of AV not a failure of her deal, because it's eliminating the option that the most people could kind-of live with.
Her best bet if she wants No-Deal on the ballot paper is probably to do two rounds,
1) What is Brexit? Deal vs No-Deal
2) Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it? [Winner of 1] vs Remain
That gives Deal a fighting chance in Round 1, because Remainiacs also get a say in which of the Brexits they'll get in the event that they lose Round 2. On balance I think No-Deal still probably wins the first round since TMay-Barnier doesn't really set the heart racing and a lot of voters would sit it out, but it could go either way.
> Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
>
> The Champions League final coincides with the start of my stint as editor of PB, that weekend you’re getting a lot of written well in advance threads on AV and electoral reform.
hope the celebrations keep rolling
odd to think Liverpool now have an outside chance of doing a double if BHA can rise to the occasion
Allowing asylum applications to the persecuted overseas would be an interesting precedent.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1126005489949650944
>
> Is that the question? Aren't the final two chosen by fptp?
PM needs the confidence of parliament last time I checked, far from certain Boris would have it, particularly if he positions himself as a no deal candidate. (Guess he will be a unicorn candidate instead to try and keep things together a few months longer).
> > @Sandpit said:
> > So in a three-way referendum, Mrs May’s Deal gets only 10% of first preferences. I guess that means there’s no chance whatsoever of getting a referendum with that question.
>
> Right, at least it means she can't do AV, because her deal immediately gets eliminated. I think there's a good argument that this is a failure of AV not a failure of her deal, because it's eliminating the option that the most people could kind-of live with.
>
> Her best bet if she wants No-Deal on the ballot paper is probably to do two rounds,
> 1) What is Brexit? Deal vs No-Deal
> 2) Now you know what Brexit is, do you want to do it? [Winner of 1] vs Remain
>
> That gives Deal a fighting chance in Round 1, because Remainiacs also get a say in which of the Brexits they'll get in the event that they lose Round 2. On balance I think No-Deal still probably wins the first round since TMay-Barnier doesn't really set the heart racing and a lot of voters would sit it out, but it could go either way.
The referendum that is consistent with her viewpoint would be:
1) TM deal
2) Extend for 12 months, with a GE in between
> > @Cyclefree said:
>
> > But also some good news:
>
> >
>
> > Asia Bibi: Christian leaves Pakistan after blasphemy acquittal
>
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48198340
>
> >
>
> > Yes. Good on Canada for doing the right thing. And shame on Britain for not doing so.
>
> >
>
> > Is Pakistan still in the Commonwealth? An, if so, why?
>
>
>
> I think Pakistan is the largest recipient of UK Foreign Aid.
>
> Why? No country with such an appalling attitude to freedom, free speech and tolerance should be receiving our aid. There have been murderous attacks on Christian churches quite as bad as those in Sri Lanka.
>
> Well, the Yanks list Pakistan as a "major non-NATO ally". Argentina also comes under that category!
Traditionally India was closer to the Soviet Union. When in doubt, look for a cold war explanation.
(FTPA, the worst pierce of legislation of the last 100 years. Discuss).
And whoever they choose needs to delete their Twitter account before they’re announced!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1126059601257029632
It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
The EC would probably allow the following questions .
Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
Remain in the EU .
> Ms Cyclefree,
>
>
>
> "And shame on Britain for not doing so."
>
>
>
> Totally agree. Inexcusable.
>
> Apparently Javid and Hunt were for giving her asylum. May overruled them. (And one junior Minister resigned over that decision.)
>
> We can add this to the list of shit decisions May has been responsible for.
May has a dreadful record on asylum and immigration. How she has the nerve to put her head into a Christian church I don't know.
> https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/1126055926681751553
I mean, the phrase has been used since 1327 with its literal (out-of-context) meaning.
If No Deal is an option then the consequences of what a No Deal exit means have to be spelt out because it is not a positive option but an absence of what there was before. So we need to be told which rights, treaties, laws will no longer be in place.
> > @Scott_P said:
> > https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/1126055926681751553
>
> I mean, the phrase has been used since 1327 with its literal (out-of-context) meaning.
Quite recent, then!
> The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
>
> It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
>
> If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
>
> As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
>
> The EC would probably allow the following questions .
>
> Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
>
> Remain in the EU .
But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean?
On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
> Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
The People's Game.
> The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
>
>
>
> It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
>
>
>
> If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
>
>
>
> As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
>
>
>
> The EC would probably allow the following questions .
>
>
>
> Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
>
>
>
> Remain in the EU .
>
> The No Deal option, according to some, means not paying the money we owe to the EU. Why would the EU agree to this being an option when they have already made it clear that they would pursue Britain for the money owed?
>
> If No Deal is an option then the consequences of what a No Deal exit means have to be spelt out because it is not a positive option but an absence of what there was before. So we need to be told which rights, treaties, laws will no longer be in place.
Leavers will have to spell out what that means . No sane country would normally put that option on a ballot but unless you have that option we’ll never hear the end of the betrayal narrative .
Mark Field is the Minister for Asia and the Pacific but he's also double jobbing as Middle East Minister, a most shameful dereliction of duty by Mrs May.
During John F. Kennedy's Presidency (1961–63), India was considered a strategic partner and counterweight to the rise of Communist China. [..]
The Kennedy administration openly supported India during the 1962 Sino-Indian war and considered the Chinese action as "blatant Chinese Communist aggression against India".[35][36] The United States Air Force flew in arms, ammunition and clothing supplies to the Indian troops
Fast-forwarding to the present day:
On 27 March 2019, India and the US signed an agreement to "strengthen bilateral security and civil nuclear cooperation" including the construction of six American nuclear reactors in India.[220]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–United_States_relations
> On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
>
> Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg
I think Galloway is more risk than reward. Potentially he can appeal to Labour voters, but he's got a lot of personal baggage and a history of very iffy actions under media pressure. He would draw more focus to the campaign which is good, but he could easily make it about him and not the message and personally I don't think that's worth the risk. The campaign will get plenty of coverage anyway.
Hannah Arendt.
(quoted in Paul Mason's new book).
Behaving like this is utterly destructive. It will seriously weaken our reputation for good governance and reliability far beyond the EU. For politicians to seriously advocate this while also saying that Britain can then have a great global future simply shows how untethered to the real world they are.
Why not? Everyone else is.
> > @dr_spyn said:
> > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
>
> Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
>
> The People's Game.
Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option.
Getting tickets will be the bigger problem.
> Not sure if I need mind bleach (or whether you might need some after reading this!), but I actually dreamt about going to a Brexit Party meeting! I dreamt that I met Farage, and he said something on the lines of the chocolate treats on offer to attendees were sponsored by Swiss company Lindt, and that I surreptitiously helped myself to quite a few.
>
> But I woke up before we got onto major policy announcements!
>
> Please note, readers, that I'm NOT a member or fanboy of the Brexit Party, or any other political party!
Bad luck Sunil. Maybe tonight it will be a Change UK meeting and you get to help yourself to the treats their leader offers you...
> > @nico67 said:
> > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
> >
> > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
> >
> > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
> >
> > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
> >
> > The EC would probably allow the following questions .
> >
> > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
> >
> > Remain in the EU .
>
> But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean?
>
> On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
To get around that you could say leave without the current WA , so in effect specify it’s in relation to what’s currently on the table . This wouldn’t constrain a future PM from doing a different deal .
> > @noneoftheabove said:
> > > @nico67 said:
> > > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
> > >
> > > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
> > >
> > > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
> > >
> > > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
> > >
> > > The EC would probably allow the following questions .
> > >
> > > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
> > >
> > > Remain in the EU .
> >
> > But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean?
> >
> > On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
>
> To get around that you could say leave without the current WA , so in effect specify it’s in relation to what’s currently on the table . This wouldn’t constrain a future PM from doing a different deal .
I am sure all the no dealers would never dream of saying betrayal, whats the point of voting, liars, or we could never leave "properly" in that scenario.
A referendum only works when it is supported by the government or clear cut and longstanding in what it means (drive on the left, allow gay marriage, etc).
Christ Almighty! Has Noddy thrown his hat into the ring yet?
> > @kinabalu said:
>
> > > @dr_spyn said:
>
> > > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
>
> >
>
> > Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
>
> >
>
> > The People's Game.
>
>
>
> Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
>
>
>
> Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option.
>
>
>
> Getting tickets will be the bigger problem.
>
> Or just get on a train to Madrid. Eurostar to Paris. Paris to Madrid.
Or get on a plane to somewhere else in Spain and travel from there by train / coach / hire car / whatever.
> https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1126055388342886400
>
>
>
>
>
> Why not? Everyone else is.
>
>
> Christ Almighty! Has Noddy thrown his hat into the ring yet?
> > @isam said:
> > On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
> >
> > Would The Brexit Party’s chances of winning Peterborough improve if they announced Galloway as the candidate? Same Q for Rees-Mogg
>
> I think Galloway is more risk than reward. Potentially he can appeal to Labour voters, but he's got a lot of personal baggage and a history of very iffy actions under media pressure. He would draw more focus to the campaign which is good, but he could easily make it about him and not the message and personally I don't think that's worth the risk. The campaign will get plenty of coverage anyway.
Is he still claiming to be a Muslim? That might have mixed electoral effects.
> > @nico67 said:
>
> > The UK is well past the point of sanity so give Leavers their no deal option on the ballot versus Remain.
>
> >
>
> > It’s now impossible to deliver an orderly exit as the betrayal narrative has taken over .
>
> >
>
> > If no deal is on the ballot then that would likely get a lot more Tories onside , Remainers need to accept the risk of that if they want another EU ref .
>
> >
>
> > As a Remainer I’m willing to take that chance .
>
> >
>
> > The EC would probably allow the following questions .
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> >
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> > Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement .
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> >
>
> > Remain in the EU .
>
>
>
> But what does "Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement" actually mean?
>
>
>
> On what areas and for how long can the UK govt no longer make agreements with the EU? There will inevitably be conflicts between that ref result and the wishes of future govts. Or can we leave without a deal and sign up to the bulk of Mays deal a month later if no deal did turn out as a disaster?
>
> The EU have said no. And as we would be a third country by then there is no legal mechanism for doing so. Plus it would be a nonsense since it is a transitional agreement to keep things as they are. By leaving without such a deal, things would no longer be as they are. It would be a mess and if the UK was responsible for such a mess any request to the EU for help from them to get out of the mess would have its price.
>
> Behaving like this is utterly destructive. It will seriously weaken our reputation for good governance and reliability far beyond the EU. For politicians to seriously advocate this while also saying that Britain can then have a great global future simply shows how untethered to the real world they are.
The mechanism is Article 50. There is nothing in the text that prevents the WA being agreed / ratified after the member has left: the timetable and the WA clauses are distinct and not inherently reliant on each other (except that you can leave early if a WA is already in place (!) ).
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/442622-dnc-faces-new-debate-minefield
>Most of the 22 candidates running for the Democratic nomination appear to have reached the polling or fundraising thresholds to qualify for the first debate, increasing the likelihood the DNC will have to turn to tiebreakers to determine the top 20.
The DNC will announce the official lineup two weeks before the debates, which will be broken into two rounds of up to 10 candidates each on June 26 and 27.
Rather than having an undercard debate of low-polling candidates, like the Republicans had during the 2016 campaign, the DNC will randomly draw to determine which night the candidates appear on stage, injecting uncertainty into a process that will be closely scrutinized by the campaigns.
There are bound to be complaints....<
Many ways in which this could go wrong - and seriously dilutes the exposure of the handful of serious candidates in with any real chance of the nomination.
> > @Cyclefree said:
> > > @kinabalu said:
> >
> > > > @dr_spyn said:
> >
> > > > Return flights to Madrid are now over £1,500 at the end of May.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Wow. So the only way that the ordinary hard up Scouser who is passionate about the team, the type who is the bedrock of this great old club, born within sight of Anfield, a bloke who stands on the Kop week in week out and does all of the witty chants, only way that bloke is getting the see the final live is to raid the xmas money. No bike for Tommy.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The People's Game.
> >
> >
> >
> > Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
> >
> >
> >
> > Overnight train from Lisbon is a good option.
> >
> >
> >
> > Getting tickets will be the bigger problem.
> >
> > Or just get on a train to Madrid. Eurostar to Paris. Paris to Madrid.
>
> Or get on a plane to somewhere else in Spain and travel from there by train / coach / hire car / whatever.
You can probably get there by train 2nd class return for between £200-£250. Via Paris and Barcelona. With a morning Eurostar you'd reach Barcelona early evening and could either make Madrid by midnight or by lunchtime day 2 with a stopover to wander round Barcelona in your Liverpool kit.
> On topic, with reference to Corbyn's serial loseriness, quiz question: which of Labour's post-war leaders made net gains in Westminster by-elections? Obviously, Corbyn (0 gains, 1 loss) isn't among them. It's a surprisingly short list.
The answer, for anyone bothered, is that the last Labour leader to make net gains in by-elections was Neil Kinnock. Miliband, Blair and Smith all ended up net zero, and Brown was a loser (Blair was net positive in opposition though but lost 3 seats to the Lib Dems in 2003-6).
The only other post-war Labour leader to make net gains was Gaitskell. Wilson lost a load in government and didn't make up for it against Heath, Callaghan suffered the usual fate of fag-end PMs, and Foot suffered with the SDP split.
Attlee also made net gains across his 20-year long leadership but none of them were after 1939.
> Or they get a flight to somewhere else in Spain (or Southern France, Portugal) and get the train to Madrid. Or hire a car.
Indeed, good trains in Spain these days. Just 3 hours from Barcelona or Malaga.
It really is time for the Tories to wind themselves up before they do any more damage to the country.
This refers to one Boris Johnson and one Jeremy Corbyn, both who desire to be PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/revealed-expenses-watchdog-suspended-official-credit-cards-belonging-to-377-mps-including-jeremy-corbyn-and-boris-johnson/ar-AAB4bhN?ocid=spartandhp